I reached out to Roz Weston when he was releasing his book, A Little Bit Broken in September of 2022. So that is not completely true - I sent an email to the publisher requesting an interview and you know how that can go. Publisher prefers TV over a podcast so on and so forth. It was another show in our company The Women of Ill Repute that had a really great interview about the Roz and the book... one that I didn't think I would be able to best. So I left it be. Now comes a new podcast from the Frequency Podcast Network called The History of Roz & Mocha. It is six episodes on how they came together, why the show works and how it has lasted 14 years when most armchair PD's gave it 14 months. The new docu-series is apart of Rogers owned Frequency Podcast Network. The History of Roz & Mocha is a six-part docuseries that takes fans on an uncensored and unhinged ride through all the laughs, tears and controversies. From boycotts and battles, to offers to leave and that one time they got a letter from Jay Z’s people telling them to shut it down. Told by the people who built the show, the ones who tried to cancel the show, their families, staff, haters and celeb fans. New episodes of The History of Roz & Mocha drops every Wednesday at midnight. TRANSCRIPTION: Tara Sands (Voiceover)  00:02 The sound off podcast. The show about podcast and broadcast - starts now! Matt Cundill  00:13 Roz Weston is one half of the Roz and Mocha Show. The duo came together in 2010. And they've just released a six part Docu series podcast chronicling their time together. And by the way, some of the audio from this podcast does appear in that Docu series. Many Canadians may know Roz from his time and Entertainment Tonight, Canada. And last year he released a book called a little bit broken, which he took several years to write. Today, we're gonna find out the backstory to how he became a national broadcast success, despite the critics counting him out, and what he needed to personally overcome to get there. And now Roz Weston joins me from Toronto. Roz Weston  00:51 I think like the beginning of it was more like high school, I think there wasn't a lot I went to I grew up in a really small town. And there wasn't a lot to do. And I guess like my senior year, me and another guy were 90210 was a big show on television during my last years of high school, and they had this like radio station, like in the school. And you know, that was like the coolest thing. And so we convinced the principal and the vice principal to let us bring a sound mixer in and we had mixed tapes. And we would do bits and contests. And I would just play over the speakers in the, in the school while kids were coming in every day. We did the announcements. And and that's really like sort of how it started was. I didn't particularly think that it was going to ever be anything. But it was it was something to do senior year in a small town where, you know, young men spend most of their time fighting boredom, right? Because you know, what happens when that sets in. And so you know, that it was really what it was, was a way for us to, you know, have a bit of fun, get on the teachers good sides and fight off boredom. Matt Cundill  02:03 And so after high school, do you go to a radio school? I Roz Weston  02:07 did. Yeah. I didn't have great marks. But I sort of had I sort of had that and and I knew somebody who they were friends with with a few people who at Cubano seven at the time, and I went in for a little while and just sort of like poked around and ended on Saturdays and helped out with pulling CDs and everything else. And so my high school grades were not great at you know, coming out, and I'd never really taken school all that seriously. And I started applying to colleges. And you know, I was like, Well, what do I have? Like, what do I even do, there was nothing academic available, but we had done this radio thing in high school and I had gone in, you know, for a little while at Cubana seven on weekends when nobody even knew I existed there because you never really met anybody. And then I applied to a few schools for radio and Humber College was the only school that I got into. So I had one option and one option only. And then I went to Humber and I lived on campus. And I did that whole life, which was not the healthiest for me at the time. And I left after the first year. So I did I did one year of Humber College. Matt Cundill  03:15 Who were you pulling CDs for q1 oh seven. Oh, just to Roz Weston  03:18 whoever was whoever was in at the time. I didn't have like a set shift. I know, Rory O'Shea was weekends for a little while, where he was doing he was doing a show and I still I still message him every now and then. Which is really crazy. He's, he's a really he was always really great to, to me when I was when I was younger. It was cool. But it was not really what I would call like a great radio experience. And just in the sense that what the hours that you were there, there was no way to meet anybody because you were coming in on Saturdays, right? So like anybody who had who would ever even be in a position to see you or talk to you or be like, hey, that guy's you know, kind of cool or talented. I never met anybody like him at the station. And so it like it was it was an experience because it was cool. And it was a station I grew up listening to. But you know, did it like did it really help? I don't know if it did it. It got me inside of a room and it caught me behind a board. And you know, I'd play reel to reel tapes when I was in the building alone, right? That kind of thing. But no, it was it was cool. But I would go from ACT into to Toronto, where I grew up on the on the bus every Saturday. So I sort of gave up my Saturdays and my last year high school to to go and do that. And then Humber College after that. Do you intern with Howard Stern? I did. Yeah. Yeah. So that's sort of what happened was, I didn't like school. I didn't like college at all, because it wasn't fun. And what I mean, it wasn't fun is that I had the expectation that at least a portion of radio was supposed to be fun, and I just didn't find it fun. When I went to when I went to school. I wasn't learning what I wanted to learn. I wanted to, you know, I wanted I thought that I was going to be learning, you know, comedy, and I thought that I was going to be learning how to have these great conversations. I thought it was gonna be learning how to do you know, a show and and you sit in sales meetings like you sit, you sit in sales classes and commercial writing classes and they sort of give you the 360 radio, which is great. But I was never going to go into any of those. And none of those things interested me at all. And so at some point in my first year, I wrote a letter to the Howard Stern Show, I found out who the intern coordinator was. And then they were like, well, we've never had a Canadian intern before, why don't you come down for an interview, and I had never left the country before. So I hopped on a Greyhound and went to New York, and I interviewed with them, and she hired me on the spot, well hired me, she asked me if I wanted to be an intern on the on the spot and, and basically, what I wound up doing was spending all the money that I had for year two of college, to live in New York for that period that that I was there. So it was a decision that I made, like what was going to be better for me in the long run, which was, you know, doing an internship with with Howard Stern, or, you know, going to second year, Humber and I chose to do the internship. Okay, I Matt Cundill  06:00 think this is a pretty important part of your story that I don't know, that has necessarily been told. But tell me what you learned from Howard Stern, because Howard is somebody who had the most unique radio show in all of North America, at least that was being done terrestrially, there was a lot of knock offs, and nobody could could really sort of compare. And I think that, you know, you've got a fairly unique show and carved out a little something. But what did you learn from Howard, about how he carved out his piece of pie and the type of show he did and what went into the show? So Roz Weston  06:32 I was there at a crazy time. So when I was there, it was the first book had come out the movie hadn't come out yet. And he was running for governor that summer. So Matt Cundill  06:43 97 is what I want to say in the book was Bill 9094. Roz Weston  06:46 Oh, 9094 it was the it was the summer the OJ Chase. Oh, that was a summer because the Knicks were in the playoffs. The Rangers were in the playoffs. World Cup was there that summer, it was it was a massive summer in the in the city. Matt Cundill  07:02 And by the way, anybody who does get the 30 for 30, June 16 1994 is the name of that. Just to get a whole idea of those three things that you talked about? Roz Weston  07:11 Yeah. And it was it was crazy there. Right? What did I learn everything. I mean, I learned everything that I learned, I learned because I didn't know anything going in there. But as far as how to do you know, as far as a show and a large show, I think that one of the most incredible things that you sort of see when you were when I was there anyway, which was that the show didn't happen outside of the studio, right. So when you walked into those offices, it was not a chaotic frat boy kind of mess. Right? It was very much an office. And you know, people were laughing, and everybody was crazy. But the show didn't happen outside of the studio. And what I never really understood was the listening to the show. And as as I was a fan of the show is I never, I never understood the role of at the time it was Jackie and Fred, and how much they wrote for the show, because that was new Howard called the writers. But I never knew how that worked on a live show, right. And it was actually quite incredible to see because as the show was going on, Jackie had a he had a table in front of them. And he had a camera that pointed down at the table. And he would write a joke or a line as the conversations were going on, on a piece of paper, and he would slide it underneath the camera. And then Howard had a monitor beside him that showed what was on that camera. And so if he used the line that he used the line if he didn't. And so at the end of the show, the floor was covered in pieces of paper with just Sharpie scribbles on it. And I learned that that is how you can use writers during a live show, because I've never seen that sort of thing done before how a broadcaster can have a writer live in the moment while you're actually having a conversation with them. And so that was pretty eye opening for me. And I think just the sort of grandness and maybe it gave me a false sense of what radio was. But when he was at K rock at the time, like they had a giant boardroom for all the sort of radio executives and everything else. And that giant boardroom became his office, right like they took over the radio station, like that entire radio station was just based around based around that show. And so it's just the grandness of it that something could be this big, right? And I think that what it wound up doing at the time was it sort of set the bar for anybody who ever experienced that show in the building it set it higher for you and you realize like just how you how far things can go in this business. And it was if nothing else, it was just inspiring, really, you know, everybody there that this giant machine was able to put chaos on the air every day but in a very organized way off the radio was was really inspiring. Matt Cundill  09:57 Did you take the Greyhound back to Toronto Roz Weston  09:59 I left early because I wasn't in I wasn't in a really good place. It was not the right time for me to be there. And I wasn't healthy, and I wasn't mentally healthy. And my mum may have flown me home when I when I left, because I know when I, when I decided to leave, I needed to leave right then, because it was not going to be a good place for me if I stayed. Matt Cundill  10:21 So I can imagine financially, it would be really tough, because I remember I had friends who had apartments in New York in 1994. It is not like the TV show Friends, to say the least, incredibly expensive, I seem to recall, the rent was, you know, the 1000s and 1000s of dollars, and then you still have some roommates. And as well, I guess the chaos that you would be working in your work in a very, you know, high stress environment. Yeah, I can, I can totally understand how that how you would feel I need to go home. Yeah, Roz Weston  10:50 and, you know, to be honest, like it was that that part of it was great. My mom found me housing at NYU, and we had Oh, it was a one bedroom. So there's a living room and a bedroom, there was four of us. So there's two of us in the bedroom, and the two guys sleeping in the living room. And it was sort of very New York, and I didn't mind I didn't mind that at all. But the stress of being there for for me was I went down there not in a very good place. And I was sort of running from whatever problems that I was dealing with. At the time I was I wasn't healthy, I was self harming a lot, I was going through some really terrible things. And I thought that running from that and hiding there would fix sort of everything. And it didn't it just made everything worse. It just came out because the one thing that I hadn't dealt with up to that point was loneliness. And, and I, you know, had been so close to my brother who I grew up with, and he'd lived with my whole life. And this was my first real time away from from him. And so I was lonely for the for the first time. And I realized that I just I wasn't built for that, or I wasn't yet built for that. Would you do when you got home? I moved on my brother moved to Toronto. When I when I was in New York, he moved to Toronto, and as soon as I moved back, I moved in with him. And we've lived together since What about broadcasts wise, I met Paul Cook from six ad. And he was like really great and taught me a lot. There was he had what he was working on a couple of different shows. And, and I was sort of just doing Chase producing for him, which is just calling around the world and just trying to convince people to come on, you know, come on shows. And that was really good. Because Paul was like this, this sort of first person, you know, in the business who looked at me and saw any sort of potential, which was really great. And we're still great friends, Paul, and I like we are incredible friends. But yeah, no. So he's he was really the one that kind of turned me around because I was going to leave radio for sure. I just I didn't I wasn't enjoying it. I didn't know if I wanted that life. And it was very difficult to get a job and I wasn't a smart guy at the time. And and so he was the one that sort of gave me gave me my first shot. And, and I have you know, I thank Him every day when I see him in the halls still that, you know, he is the the reason that I sort of do everything that I do now. And Matt Cundill  13:12 so that's the Rogers property, a very busy radio station, because it's news round the clock and a wheel and you gotta get people on and off and production. Did you stay in that Rogers building for long? Roz Weston  13:23 It's hard to even tell because I've been at Rogers three times. I left and I went to produce television, right I was I was a writer in news and public affairs, and producer on on TV. And then 911 happened, right. And after 911 happened, you started to tell the same story every single day. And it was devastating to work at news at that time, just because everything you did hurt. Everything you did was depressing. Everything you did was a story that was hard to tell and hard to write and hard to chase. And, and then at the time right out right around after that time my my father got sick and my dad was dying. And I realized that I just needed fun in my life. Like if I was going to still work in television I needed I needed fun. And then this station Toronto one started up and they were producing a late night show and I went into interview to be the executive producer of the late night shows this show called Last call. And I didn't get the job and they called me and said hey, you know we're gonna go with somebody else's the EP but do you want to? Do you want to interview come in and audition to be one of the hosts for the show. And at this point, I had never done any on air stuff. And I wasn't interested in doing on air stuff. But I knew that I needed to have a little bit of fun and I needed to get out of the the sort of news wheel. And so I went in and I interviewed I auditioned to be a host on this show. They were hiring for people to be this host. It was a late night show that took place in a bar and it was a working bar. So there was like custom Emerson, everybody else, you know, in there, and then I wound up getting that job. And that was my first on air job. And I was almost, I was a month away from being 30. So as far as the On Air stuff goes, I was kind of late in the game like a late bloomer. When it comes to people. I wasn't the, you know, one of these guys that had a, you know, where I was doing on air shifts at radio stations, you know, in my early 20s, like, I didn't take my first on air job until I was 30. Matt Cundill  15:27 Yeah, and it was a lot of television, too. Yeah, yeah. So you did you did some stuff in the bar. And then you were with Toronto, one for a while. And then I think what comes next is global. Yeah. ET Canada. Now. It's National. Now I know who you are. Roz Weston  15:42 Yeah. And it was ET Canada was really crazy, because we had this thing at Toronto one, so they canceled the bar show. And then they built an entertainment news magazine show, sort of like ET whatever right, was called the a list and that sort of that show, that station was such a disaster, and that station was destined to fail. But when you look at the people who came out of that sort of pocket of people, so it's myself, very first on our job, Deena Pugliese, it was her first on our job, Tracy more, ERISA Cox, who's the host of Big Brother, Canada, Andrea bein. And then over on the on the new side, it was who was there, there was somebody else that was there. But it was like this, it was a stacked lineup. And everybody who worked at that tiny little station went on to do these really, really great things. And it was, so for that part at Toronto one, you know, we all knew it was going to end because there was no way that it couldn't. But when you were there, you realize that you were working with some incredibly talented people. And it was and it was really great. So that station was failing. And then our one of our producers went over to global. And then one of our senior producers went over to global and they were building this new entertainment show, nobody knew that it was Entertainment Tonight, Canada, because the deal with Paramount hadn't been done yet. And I was the only one who had a contract at Toronto, one that would allow them to jump from one to the other. Everybody else had some sort of non compete, and my lawyer at the time wound up making sure I didn't have any of that, which was great. And so they were looking for people and I was the first person hired for ET Canada. So it was the executive producer, the director guy named Frank Sampson. And then I think they hired a jib guy, because they were they were friends. And then and then me. And so I was hired before Cheryl was hired, and I wound up sitting in Cheryl's audition, they made Cheryl audition for the for the show. And so we built the show. But when I was hired at BT, Canada, it was called Global entertainment. It wasn't even called at Canada until they could announce the the deal with Paramount and then sort of ET Canada just took off. And I was there for 17 years, and Matt Cundill  17:58 a great piece of Canadian content that could count as news. And great relief, by the way for anybody who's looking to get away from the depressing stuff out there. Which is why by the way, I always thought Entertainment Tonight worked because it followed the news back in the day. It Roz Weston  18:11 did and you know, the the crazy thing about ET Canada is like I never loved it right? There was never really my thing. You just sort of get good at it. And that's what I that's what I relied on. I saw an episode of We launched ET Canada in 2005. And for the first couple months, I would watch them when I could you I would tape it on VHS at the time when I when I got home. But I think I the last episode of that show that I saw was 2007. And I never watched the show after that. I never knew what it looked like I never knew when we changed our graphics. I never knew when we change the music I just didn't I just would just go in because I liked interviewing people like that's what I like doing. It's not that I love being on that show. I just love doing interviews. And so that's what I would go and do and and I would put all my sort of time and effort into doing interviews and then when we started doing the live show, but I was never really interested in everything else they did you know they did on the show, but man that I love working with those people. They were an incredible group of people to work for. And that was the hard part of leaving that show was was leaving the people that you just laughed with every day, Matt Cundill  19:25 having spent some time with Natasha Gargiulo on this show, and working with her in the past. And you know, she and I talk quite often she's still you know, refers to it as families even though you know, it's not continuing you we're all family. Yeah. Roz Weston  19:37 And Natasha, Natasha is a great one because she sort of came in on on wave two when we started hiring new people. And, you know, we welcomed her in and she crushed everything that you know, they asked her to do and she was, you know, she was really great. It was hard when when Natasha and we had another reporter in Vancouver at the time named Aaron sebelah. It was hard when they when they left or when they were asked to leave they didn't leave, they were asked to leave. It was hard because you really you know, you love those women and love what they brought to the show. And, and you don't want to you don't want to see somebody hurt, you know when they when they put so much into something and, and the sacrifice for a show like that is time because, you know, they traveled a lot in the first years of the show, I traveled a lot, I had a brand new baby at home. And I was I was in Los Angeles, three weekends a month. And I would finish you know, when I started doing the radio show, I would finish the radio show at 9am. At the time, I would have my bag with me at the station, I would get in the car, I would go to Pearson, I would be on an 11 o'clock to Los Angeles, I'd land in LA, I would work that night, I would do interviews all day Saturday, and then Sunday morning, and then I would get back on a plane to come back to Toronto and I would land at 11:30pm on Sunday night, get home at about 1230 and then wake up and do the radio show again. And I would do that for three weeks in a row. Right like there was without without break kind of thing. And so it's an exhausting thing. And so you really feel like you're putting a lot into it. And so so when when somebody, you know gets gets let go, it hurts more because of the the amount of themselves that they gave to it. Matt Cundill  21:14 When did kiss 92 Five, Roz Weston  21:16 come calling 2009 I was in Los Angeles, because Michael Jackson had died. And I was covering that for at Canada. And kiss was coming back. And I had worked at kiss in the early 2000s. I was mad dog and Bailey's producer. And I'd left there and kiss was coming back. And Julie Adam was sort of, you know, bringing kiss back. And I'd worked with Julie earlier and she gave me an incredible opportunity. When I needed an opportunity. And people were blowing up my phone being like, Oh my God, you got to do this, you got to do this. You got to call her you got to call her. And then I wound up writing Julie a letter while I was in Los Angeles to tell her why she needed to take a chance on me to do the morning show. And you know, I'd never hosted a radio show before. I never introduced a song on the radio before. I've still never introduced a song on the radio before. I've never run a contest. I've never done any of that stuff. And and then I convinced Julie because my fallback was, hey, listen, let me just do this. Because what do you got to lose? Right? The other thing is, is that if I'm horrible at it, just fire me because I already have a great job wherever I work at ET Canada, like you're not going to hurt my feelings and my family's not going to starve or anything else. If this does not work out, just tell me to not come back in. And by the time I was flying home from Los Angeles. After covering the Michael Jackson funeral, Julie had offered me the job. And so I signed on very early on tentatively, but then it became how do I do the radio show and ET Canada at the same time, because I only wanted to do both. And that sort of where, you know, the two companies which didn't have a great history of playing nice together, let alone sharing people. And one great lawyer who was my lawyers sort of, you know, brought everybody together at the time and everybody worked it out. And they figured it out that I could, you know, wake up at 330 in the morning and do a five hour radio show. And then leave there and go and do ET Canada until you know six o'clock every night is when we finish taping basically, and then drive home and then still travel on the weekends. Right. So it was an incredible schedule. I was doing, you know, 16 hours a day, every day. But they worked it out. And I was able to do both. And I did both for a very long time. That the birth of rasa mocha. Yeah, because I signed on to do the show. And mocha had already with Mocha was hired as well. But mocha was hired to do afternoon drive. And when I got hired, Julie started giving me Julie Adams started giving me all these tapes of of people who when it came out that I was doing this show who wanted to do the show with me. And it was extremely flattering because there were some great broadcasters in there and some some people who were employed at the time at at other stations in the city. And the more I listened to these tapes, the more I realized that I was going to fail with every single one of them. Even just on a demo alone, I knew I would have no connection to any of them. And in all of those tapes was mochas tape. And she just had it because she asked for it when she hired him to do afternoons and I listened to bogus tape, and I was like, this is the guy like this is the only guy you know, I realized what I was looking for. And I was looking for everything. And mocha was everything. And she said, Well, shit, that's great because he's already hired. So we'll just slide him over from afternoon drive to the morning show. And then she went to Moca and she was like, Hey, listen, Roz really loves your tape and wants you to come and do the do the morning show with him and build a show. And he said no, he didn't want to do it. He had been doing mornings in Kitchener and he didn't want to do it. And he's like, No, I'm fine. I'm gonna do afternoons and then I was like, well oh my god, I'm dead right like the whole thing is dead. And then it took him, you know, a little while and he came around. And that's sort of more his story, as far as you know, his realizations and his own feelings towards it. But he did come around. And then we were able to kind of build this show that, you know, at the time, will probably be the last time, another show gets this opportunity. And we and we talk about this all the time, which is now when you have shows starting, and they're bringing two people together who have never worked together, or even two people that have worked together, you know, stations are very careful. And you do test shows, you know, they'll put you in a studio, you'll do a couple of test shows, you'll run some bits, stuff that will never see the light of day. And then you go and you sit with a boss, and you work out the kinks kind of thing, where when mocha and I started this show, we met once before we started this show, and it was and we hadn't really even met before this. And we met once it was at a bar. And there was a third person there with us, who was our assistant music director at the time. And we had taught me we talked about the show and what we wanted for the show for about 20 minutes. And then we had a couple of drinks and dinner and we left and then the next time we saw each other was that day when the show started. And so you know, you will never again have somebody hire two people to do a morning show, in a city like Toronto on a station like kiss, which is a brand new station at the time, where it's like, okay, you're hired, and you're hired. And then you just show up one day and do a show, like without really planning anything. And we hadn't planned anything more and more and more. So we didn't want to do anything. And so we fought like hell. Because we were like, I don't want to do traffic. I don't want to do weather, I don't want to have somebody come in and do news. We don't want to do any of that stuff. So we took out all of that stuff out of the show, just so we could do comedy and sort of go on rolls with things right. I wanted to be able to take lots of calls, and I didn't want to be interrupted. And so that's how we built the show. That was the sort of foundation of the show was, you know, there was no structure as opposed to I mean, right now, like we have way more structure now than we did then like there was no net and no structure when we started the show. Matt Cundill  27:04 So from what I'm hearing, Julie Adam got out of the way, for the first few months. Yeah, Roz Weston  27:11 what what Julie did was, Julie is the biggest fan and as the best eye for talent of anyone that I've ever seen in my life, Julie's incredible. And Julie knew me because we had worked together before Julie knew Mocha, because they had worked together before. And Julie saw something in me and she saw something in Mocha, and already knew that there was no chance being taken on talent. It was just building a show and chemistry and figuring each other out. So she knew that that was the hurdle. It wasn't figuring out whether we were good enough, she just let us figure out the sort of dynamic of us. And what Julie did was she sort of let us be us in those first couple of months. And then what she was doing on the other side was guarding the gate from the bosses and the consultants and the everything who were telling her what in the hell are you doing? And what she would say is just give it time it's going to work. And that was sort of that's what she did is that she was the sort of defender of us in those first couple of months. Yeah, Matt Cundill  28:16 good program director when building a new show has to be the most excellent of shields. Roz Weston  28:23 Oh, she was incredible. She's still incredible. I could say Julie doesn't even work with us anymore. And I could call Julie and be like, Oh my God, this guy's really got my ass I need your help. And Julie would help like without without question. Tara Sands (Voiceover)  28:34 transcription of the sound off podcast is powered by the podcast, Super Friends, five podcast producers who get together to discuss podcasting. Sharpen your podcast and creation skills by following the show on the sound off podcast, YouTube or Facebook page. Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  28:53 This podcast supports podcasting 2.0. So feel free to send us a boost. If you're listening on a new podcast app, find your new app now at podcasting, two point org slash apps. That's podcasting. Two point org slash apps. So Matt Cundill  29:07 how far into rosin Mocha, before you are comfortable, that this is totally working. And we're gonna ride this. Roz Weston  29:16 I didn't have a lot of expectations because I didn't know what to expect. Like I didn't, I didn't know what it felt like to build, you know, something that was going to be successful. And to be honest with you, I didn't know whether the show was great. I mean, it made me laugh, right. And that that's sort of all you have when you're in a room at six o'clock in the morning with one other person made me laugh. I was having a good time and then you just hope that other people do. But I think that the one thing that we did early on with that show is something that is different from the way that they tell other people you know, most people when you get into this business, especially if you're new and you're doing a show, they will tell you to figure out what the audience is talking about what they're interested in and talk about have that sort of like, reflect the audience we're making, I have never done that. I've never once talked about something on the show that I'm not interested in, we only ever talked about the things that we were interested in. Because if we're interested in it, chances are, we can make it interesting enough that the audience would be interested in it. And so that's sort of how we built the show. And then when you sort of keep going over time, the audience then feels like they are a part of this friendship that you have, where you know, you're too, you know, funny people who are making each other laugh and ripping on each other, but also doing some stuff that'll make you cry, and also doing some stuff that is extremely helpful for people that needed at the time. And that's how we did it. Because it net we never want sounded like we were talking about something that we didn't believe in 100%. And I think that that's kind of where we started in a different place than most shows, Matt Cundill  30:53 how close are the two of you after hours, we don't Roz Weston  30:57 hang out, we barely talk. But I think that that is not because of anything like I love him. You know, he's he's one of the greatest people I've ever met in my life. And one of the most important key people that I've met in my life, but we've just never hung out. And it's like a thing that freaks the audience out. Like, we don't, we don't hang out, like we'll text memes to each other during the day. But you know, we don't sit on the phone or fire emails back and forth and do a lineup of stuff that we're going to talk about on the show the next day, like, we just don't do that. And we never have, you know, the the, the whole thing with our show is, you know, you gotta be ready to laugh, you gotta be ready to lose, and you can't let the other person down. And that's just it, you know, come in, work hard and be ready. And it's like everybody else that we have on the show. Now with the other cast members that are on the show, it's like, if you're called upon be ready, that's the only rule, you know, just be ready. And when you tell somebody that it sort of, you know, puts them in a position to work on themselves and their own performance, you know, I don't want to work on somebody else's performance, I just need them to know that the only thing I need you to do today is to figure out a way to be better tomorrow without relying on the things that made you great today. And that's the only thing I need is just get better every single day just get better. Matt Cundill  32:12 Has there ever been a point where you thought the show could cease? Roz Weston  32:15 Never, not once, not even when we had terrible ratings all those years ago, when I went every day, I should have thought about that. Every day, I should have thought about that the show is gonna get canceled. But I never I never did. And that wasn't because of arrogance, it was I think it was just because we were just so focused on the show that I was never interested in anything outside of the show. And also, you know, the thing that makes mocha Chai a little bit different is I don't care if we win. Right Moca cares if we win, you know, I care about other things on the show, I care about the flow of things and the content, and whether what we're saying is helpful, what we're saying is truthful, what we're saying is funny, like I care about all that stuff. Mocha does too. But you know, we just our main focuses or other are sort of other things, right? Like he cares, he cares very much. If we win where, you know, if somebody sends me ratings, then I get them. And it's like, cool, great. That's awesome. You know, and then milk and I will text will be like, congratulations. That's that's great. But I'm certainly not ratings focused on I never have been, Matt Cundill  33:17 what's the best thing a program director can offer you? I Roz Weston  33:21 would say that, and I've worked with some great program directors, we've been really lucky in that world. When it comes to working with performers, I think that the first thing they need to do is concentrate less on the performance and more on the person. Because once you start understanding the person first and that the performance stuff kind of comes into place. You understand why they make decisions? That's the first thing but I think the most important thing is to figure out what motivates the person you're talking to. Because everybody's motivated by different things. Some it's praise, some it's creative freedom, summit space. But when it comes to kind of coaching and guiding and offering advice, I think you really need to figure out you can't do a one size fits all. When it comes to you know, coaching or advice or or being being a PD, somebody like me, right? So Paul Kay, who is our I don't even know what he is now, I think a VP but he was our program director for a while. He figured me out real quick. And somebody like me, if you want me to go in a different direction, okay, it is never a good idea to tell me to not do something, what you should do is tell me to do more of something, right? So if there's part of my performance that you sort of feel maybe isn't the best or you want to, you know, kind of, you know, switch gears or not, you know, go in a specific direction. Don't tell me to not do that because I will only do more of that. Right. So I'm the kind of person where I'm like, don't tell me to not do something. Tell me to do more of some thing. So find the thing that you think works. And just tell me to do more of that. And then this problem will sort of Matt Cundill  35:05 fix itself. Tell me about going from local to national. And that's not to say that this show isn't local. But you know, you have to make a jump. And you know, Howard Stern, does it now it's your turn to add some extra radio stations to the roster? And did you have to change much? Or did you just continue to do the same show, Roz Weston  35:24 we never sort of felt that we had to insert local into the, into the show, we always felt that, you know, whatever we were just interested in is what we were talking about. So we never felt the need to do local things. If local happened, then local happens. But we never we were never guided by guided by that the sort of live local thing was never interested me. Did we have to change things? Yes. And I wish we hadn't. Because we, when you are in Canada, you know, we just don't have the amount of radio stations that you do in America, like if you look at New York State, and then Massachusetts, and then you know, Pennsylvania, and you sort of go down all the way the East Coast, there's 150 stations that a show like ours could be on. But when you look at Canada, the way we have a time zones, and the amount of stations we have, there's not a lot of stations. And so when our show went to Winnipeg, we give them a version of the show, it's not really our show. It's not, it's not, it's not our show that starts at you know, 6am in Toronto, and then we just replay the whole show in Winnipeg. And I wish we did. Because I feel that it would be a better show, they get a version of our show, which is, you know, extra breaks that we have, and then we'll take the news breaks. And we'll sort of fill them in as you know, talk breaks. And we don't do certain things on the show that we'd like none of our games, we don't play our games there. Because, you know, I guess people can't win. But I still think that they're fun to listen to. And anyway, it's it's a version of our show, I wish it was our show. The the the Ontario stations, the Ontario North stations are our show. And they crushed like, like we're like they we crushed in northern Ontario, which is really wild. And the people have just been so engaged with the show. And we hear from the people in Timmins and North Bay and Sioux Sainte Marie, like constantly, like they've just become incredible fans. So they're wonderful. And then the other versions of the show is our The show is evening version. So in Ottawa and Edmonton and somebody somewhere else, I'm not sure it's an evening show. So it's a two hour version of our show cut to an evening show. And those do and those do really well the responses great to that. So, you know, there's a lot of different versions of the show that are on the radio. And in order to be able to pull that off, right, you need to a higher people. And you need to build a machine that can handle the workload, because now we have five pts. And we have five sets of expectations. And we have, you know, five different contests and we have all of this stuff that we have to now run. And you know, the one thing that it is now that I will reality is, from the time that we walk in every day, there is not a second, that we're not working for the show, like I asked to go pee like I'm in grade five, you know, like, I'll look at milk and I'm like, do I have time to pee? And he will either say yes or no. And that is literally the only break that you have, from the entire time because we're not doing stuff for Toronto, we're doing stuff for all the other stations, Matt Cundill  38:19 you touched on loneliness earlier on. So I have to ask, tell me about your personal experience going through the pandemic. And at the same time as a whole, we're all going through it. And a people are relying on you and your show for company. The one Roz Weston  38:37 thing we never did on the radio show was we never missed a day. And when I say never missed a day, we never missed a day in the studio. We never did the show from home, not one single day, they shut the building down for two years. And there were days where like me and Mike and a couple guys in the newsroom were the only people in that building. And it was dark, they saved money by not even turning the lights on. And we went in, we figured out a way to do the show in the building because it still needed to feel like the show. And also, I didn't want to have to talk about the pandemic all the time. And that's one thing that being in the studio, normalize that experience for us. And so we didn't really spend a lot of time talking about COVID. And I think that when everybody else went because a lot of people use it as a gimmick working from home, you know, because oh my god, look at us. We're, we're flattening the curve, and we're working from home. But when you work at home, and you know you make that decision, and then when you go back to work two weeks later and you realize okay, so it was a bit right. But we never did that. And what it allowed us to do was to make the decision to just not go heavy on COVID. In the show, we would we would talk about you know, like the important things that people needed to know and like what legislation was happening with the mayor was doing all that said stuff. We did that, but we felt it was extremely important to just do our show. Go. And so we went in everyday during COVID, and just did the show we would have done Matt Cundill  40:04 had it not been COVID was a therapeutic. Roz Weston  40:07 It was in the sense that you didn't feel trapped, right? Like, I never felt trapped, I still had a place to get up and go to every day where, you know, most people did not. And you know, I felt terrible for those people, especially if you can see people slipping, and a lot of people slipped during that time during COVID. And it was just not an option for us. And we were never going to do the show from home, like we were never going to do the show from I got I did the show from home twice. And when I got COVID twice. And I never missed a show, I had a kit that I had at home. And we made sure it sounded great. And I got COVID. And I think the first time I didn't tell people that I had COVID, we just did the show, because they didn't want to dwell on COVID. Because I knew that that was not the right way to go. Matt Cundill  40:54 When did you decide to write a book years Roz Weston  40:57 ago is when I decided to write the book, I got approached to write the book years ago, but they they wanted a celebrity sort of thing. Here's all the behind the scenes of all the famous people I've interviewed, and I wasn't interested in that. And the book came around because I just I knew I had a story to tell. And it's just a matter of being brave enough to sort of put it all down on paper. And then I met an agent. And that's your sort of first step in wondering if if you even have a book, if your idea is even a book as you sit down with an agent, the agent was like, Yeah, let's let's sort of work on this. And, and then I took, you know, six months with with him. And we worked on the proposal for it, which is reading chapters and you know, sample chapters, and you have to it's a lot to even get it to a publisher. And then when we when we sold it, I spent I think the whole the whole time was about a year and a half, maybe even to writing it. And it was an emotional, you know, experience writing the book. And I knew what the book was. And I knew that it was sort of unusual. Listen, I was like I was I was a late 40s You know, man writing a book about feelings. And it wasn't an easy thing to do. And I cried everyday. Well, while I wrote it, I laughed everyday while I wrote it. But it was incredibly emotional. And I sort of knew that going into that process of talking about, you know, the things that I talked about whether it be you know, grief, or you know, mental health issues, or whatever it was, I knew that what I was doing was going to help, it was going to be helpful. And if it was only one person that found it helpful to me, that was enough to sort of get me through all the hard parts that were extremely difficult to sort of relive and retell, Matt Cundill  42:37 we all do feel a little bit broken inside, what is the best way to not feel so broken? I Roz Weston  42:44 don't think it's about not feeling broken. I think that it's about figuring out how to rebuild. And I think that that's one of the big problems, especially with young men, is, you know, the thing that terrifies us the most about, you know, even admitting that there might be something wrong is rebuilding. And that's a tough place to be is, you know, we can tear ourselves apart. But the reason we don't is because how do you then put it all back together again, so you're out, you know, you're, you're a whole person. And that's why people don't ask for help, you know, in a lot of situations is because they're terrified to be taken apart. Because, you know, how do you put it all back together again. And so when I, when I had come up with the idea of a little bit broken, it was you know, you're not ruined, you're not used, you're not spoiled. And you're certainly not beyond repair, but you just got to learn how to rebuild. And that's where you know that that was what I went through. And I sort of go into great detail of that sort of rebuilding process that that I went through, and it's and it's not perfect, and I'm still far from perfect. And there's a lot of stuff that still, you know, sort of eats away at me and bothers me, but I don't hide it anymore. I had Tourette's on television for 17 years when I was on TV. And I don't know why is I didn't really I didn't have to but I just didn't, I always had this great fear of being somebody's problem. And I never wanted to put any of my stuff on anybody else that where they felt responsible for, for anything that I was that I was going through. And so So I hit it, I hit everything that I was going through. But then I realized that, you know, kind of coming out of the other side and I met a great woman who's my wife now Katherine, and we had a kid and I slowly started to rebuild, you know, over the over the years, the radio show helped a lot with a lot with that. And I came to terms with a lot of things I you know, finally dealt with the the loss of my dad and and just you sort of just start to rebuild. And it's a long process, right? It's a really, really long process. And it was at that point where I realized that maybe this story would be helpful. Matt Cundill  44:42 What I love about podcast right now is all the stories that are coming out involving radio and rosin. milker story 14 years, and you got a docu series that's on the way Why Is now the time to do this. Roz Weston  44:55 So God one because you build This podcast network and this podcast feed and you have It's a monster that you've got to feed. Right? You got it, you got to do this. But also the fans have really supported us. And and I don't know how usual it is for radio shows, to have the kind of fans that that we have, I'll give you I'll give you an example. Right. So when I released when I released the book, we did a, we did a book signing at Indigo in in Toronto, and I didn't know what to expect at the book signing and indigo didn't know what to expect. And my agent didn't know what to expect. And the publisher didn't know what to expect. And so we showed up and we brought the whole radio crew and you know, our DJ DJ climax was spinning live in the bottom of indigo and, and all this stuff. And 550 people showed up. And it was the second biggest book signing that Indigo had ever done. And I was like, Well, who was number one, and they were like Bruce Springsteen. And I was like, God, damn these fans, right. And then anytime we do something, the fans rally. And fan service is what I love, I love when I'm a fan of something. And then the artist or the the property, the IP, whatever it is, they do these things specifically for fans, right? I'm a big fan of fan service. And when we started the podcast was 2016. And then sort of the podcast starts in 2016, and continues on for today. But from 2009 to 2016, there was a story, it's sort of like our origin story of how the show started and all that craziness that we did in those early days. And so there's a lot of fans of ours who don't know what that story actually is. And so we put together this six part, it's a 661 hour episodes. And it's we have this incredible archive because the one thing that Mike and I did do when we started this show, was we kept everything, even at a time when people didn't keep stuff. We kept everything. We have everything from our very first break on that morning in 2009. Until what we did today on hard drives, every single thing we've kept, that's incredible. Matt Cundill  47:02 And I think this is a lesson for any talent. If you don't save it, nobody else is going to save it. They will not Yeah, and I saved a whole bunch of stuff. And I put it all on reel to reel tape. And then I left it at the station that I was at figuring it would be there and then eventually they threw them out one day and then you don't have anything, nobody will do it for you as the lesson. Roz Weston  47:22 They won't and it's completely up to you. But like so in this Docu series like our like all the clips of like that first show that we did. It's all in the Docu series, right all that stuff from early on those first couple years when I came into work the next day after my kid was born. And I you know, I did the show, because I just had this incredible story that I needed to tell. But my kid just being born. And I have we have all of that, like we have all those breaks. That's all sort of like the stuff that's in the Docu series. But really the Docu series is it's about a radio show. And it's I think I think personally, it's one of the most in depth looks at building a radio show and the mechanics behind it. And we go in deeply we talk about our contracts, we talk about job offers that we've had. We talk about all that stuff in the in the Docu series. But I think that at its core, it's it's you know, it's a really a story about a friendship. And it was two people from two completely different worlds. I grew up one way and Moca grew up a very, very different way. We came together he said no eventually said yes, we don't talk or hang out outside of the show. The beautiful thing about this story is imagine if you had a best friend, where every single conversation you got you had with your best friend, the history of your friendship, every conversation you had, when you realize that you guys were best friends was all on tape, because that's what we have. Right? You know, every conversation that mark and I've ever had together is in the archives, you know, we don't really talk outside of the show. And so our story of friendship is everything that is the show, right? It's it's what the show is built on. And so that's sort of what we put on display. And that's the sort of overall story, you know, that we that we tell with this and that and then that's what the fans love, right? And that's sort of what they grabbed on to Matt Cundill  49:03 it with morning shows, and really any form of entertainment. It takes three years to build an audience we talk about that often. Whether it's podcasts, radio stations, or morning shows. Around seven, eight years, you've got something, but now you've done the seven, eight years, I think twice. So now you sort of captured two generations of listeners and built that audience and people come people go, Roz Weston  49:25 yeah, they do. And you know, you don't realize how long you've been doing the show until you start getting calls. And I would say for anybody in this business if you if you set a goal for yourself of what you consider to be longevity, or what you consider to be success because success is completely subjective. And everybody has their own version of success. Some people's success may be the advertisements that we have for the show there on billboards and buses, right. That's success for some people, some people it's ratings, some people it's money. But what we realized was when we started getting calls from people But where they would say, hey, you know, I listened to you in you know, my last two years of high school and you're like, okay, cool and they're like, you know, now I'm, you know, a doctor, and I got two kids. And you're like, that's a lot of life. Right? That's a lot of life. And you know, a few of our fans that grew up listening to the show went on to become famous, right, which is another real trippy thing to do like, you know, CW from you know, Marvel who was Shang chi and he was on Kim's convenience like he his pay he listened to show every single day going to the GO station, you know, in the car with his with his mom and dad Alessia Cara, same thing. Like, we're like we were a part of their world. Not that we mattered in the sense that what they became, but I think the great thing is, is that there was a part of their life where they were really on to doing great things, and crushing their goals. Were we sort of rode together, right? It's really incredible to hear. But when you when you when you start talking like what you said, I've just, you know, sort of multigenerational stuff. It's really wild. Matt Cundill  51:04 How much fun are you having every day as much as you did from day one? Yeah, Roz Weston  51:08 we you know, I always say the worst my day is, is I laugh, right? That's sort of really it. And now it's much easier. You know, you've been on the air almost 15 years, and it's a machine and you sort of know what to do every day and it just keeps getting bigger. Right? I think that that's the sort of motivating thing now is that the show is not getting smaller, it's only getting bigger, whether it's through the podcast, or through, you know, adding it to more stations or just through ratings or the creative freedom that we still managed to get. It's just growing and so yeah, it's fun. Like it's the time of my life every day sound. Tara Sands (Voiceover)  51:41 Our podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Sieminski, edited by Chloe amo lane, social media by Aiden glassy, another great creation from the sound off media company, there's always more at sound off podcast.com

Sarah Burke, a trailblazer in the media industry, joins Matt Cundill on a compelling episode to delve into her journey from Sirius XM to founding the Women in Media podcast network. Sharing insights gained from her podcasting experience, Burke reveals her mission to empower creators with ownership and purpose. Reflecting on the podcast industry's evolution, she highlights the importance of unlearning radio habits and embracing diversity in storytelling. As they explore network growth and industry predictions, Burke navigates the challenges of managing video for clients while emphasizing the significance of quality audio. Despite uncertainties, Burke's commitment to amplifying women's voices remains unwavering, driving her to cultivate a dynamic network that fosters community and empowerment. Watch the episode here! About Sarah and the Women in Media Network... On the three-year anniversary of the Women in Media Podcast, Canadian media personality and producer Sarah Burke is thrilled to announce the launch of the Women In Media Network (WIMN). This exciting venture aims to provide a supportive home for women and gender-diverse podcasters, fostering a community dedicated to uplifting, inspiring, and empowering individuals in the media industry. What began as a single podcast has now evolved into the Women In Media Network, boasting a roster of 75 remarkable women and gender-diverse individuals. This collective of aligned minds inspired the creation of WIMN, an organization dedicated to empowering women through podcasting, content creation, and education within a supportive community. The network's flagship properties include podcasts hosted by influential figures like multi-platinum, award-winning singer-songwriter Jann Arden and lifestyle celebrity Debbie Travis. These shows, along with others in the network, cover a wide range of topics from personal finance to mental health, offering listeners diverse and engaging content. To learn more about the Women In Media Network and its initiatives, visit www.womeninmedia.network. And don't forget to check out Sarah's latest solo episode of Women In Media for an in-depth look at the network and its founding creators. For media inquiries or to learn more about the Women In Media Network, contact Sarah Burke at https://www.sarahburke.ca/contact. Stay tuned for more updates and exciting announcements from the Women In Media Network! Transcript Tara Sands (Voiceover)  00:02 The sound off podcast. This shallow belt, podcast and broadcast starts now. Matt Cundill  00:12 We have had Sarah Burke on this show a couple of times before, once when she was at Sirius XM and later when she launched her women in media podcast. Nearly three years later that podcast is now the flagship show on a network that is launched called the women in media Podcast Network. Sara is going to tell us who is on it. Full disclosure, Sara and I have worked on a few podcasts together that were on the soundoff Podcast Network, namely Donna murals through the fire and trust me, I'm a decorator with Debbie Travis and Tommy Smyth. The latter will be part of Sarah's new network of which I'm an advisor. Now, the owner of the women in media Podcast Network, Sarah Burke, joins me from Toronto. Sarah Burke  00:51 I didn't realize I've been on twice before I thought just once. I kind Matt Cundill  00:55 of had you on for a bonus episode, but then I left it in there. But it still says bonus episode. And we did it actually, when you were launching your podcast women in media? Sarah Burke  01:05 So we're coming up on two years? Yeah, actually longer. It's Matt Cundill  01:08 been three. Holy, where did that time go? But I want to roll it back even further than that to 2018. Because you were at Sirius XM. And then, you know, 2021 22, you weren't anymore. You made a departure? What have you been doing since that departure? Sarah Burke  01:25 Bothering Matt Kondal as many times a day as my phone permits. And it's really bad when you see Do Not Disturb on? I'm kidding. I'm kidding. It's funny that you were asking this question to begin, because I was reflecting on a journal entry that I wrote around March 2022. So we're coming up on two years since this entry. And at that point, I was using my podcast as a way to display my skills. And I was like, I'm gonna get hired at the next great job because of the skills that I will showcase on my podcast. And then I realized that that wasn't what I was trying to do at all. There's a little more of a purpose now. And I'm about to launch a podcast network. Matt Cundill  02:17 It's funny how that works out, you always think I'm gonna start a podcast, I'll get the skills needed. And it will take me to this next fantastic job for one of these companies that clearly is going to be investing in podcasting. And it never happens. You wind up just doing it yourself. Me, for instance, but but now you. So let me ask you, what's the name of the Podcast Network? How do we get on the network? And what's it all about? Sarah Burke  02:41 Don't be shocked at how creative I am. But it's called the women in media Podcast Network. I would say it's born out of the same thing as my podcast, which was my experience as a woman in media. But also a new landscape in media, where I think you and I are very aligned on this, where I think that content creators need to have more ownership and purpose with their own content. And a lot of the podcast networks out there, they want to split things 5050 down the middle with you. And I don't think either of us are trying to do that. We are trying to empower creators to do things themselves, with some advice about the best ways to do it. Matt Cundill  03:24 So one of the things that that comes up a lot on the show is three years to build an audience, three years to find yourself. It's in radio to three years for the radio station to become a heritage piece three years for your morning show to really take off and become established. And here you are three years into the women in media podcast. episodes have been coming out every two weeks, very consistent on that stuff. I see, I think take summers off every once in a while. But yeah, congratulations to that. So what is the podcast journey been like to get you to this point where now you're starting to network? Sarah Burke  03:58 I think the way that I once thought about podcasting was quite narrow compared to the way I think of podcasting today. And I have to give Matt a ton of credit, because a lot of my opinions about podcasting have been informed by things that we've worked on together. And I thank you for always like sharing the Good, the Bad and the Ugly along the way and during the process, because that has informed a lot of my opinion, where we sit today and 2024. And I also think that at one point, I was thinking about Super serving Canadians, and that is like the silliest idea, ever. Matt Cundill  04:37 Whatever makes you think that Sarah Burke  04:38 way. If you want to make it big and podcasting, you're podcasting to an audience that lives anywhere, they can listen on an app, Matt Cundill  04:47 and you and I had that conversation. I think when we were in Denver, we went down to Podcast Movement. And listen, the rest of the country always says that, you know, Toronto is the center of the universe and it's very easy to feel that way when you work in media in Canada. Uh, but then, you know, here you are, you need to sort of leave that bubble and you're now in a global playground. Tell me about Podcast Movement. What did you learn there? Sarah Burke  05:08 That was like one of the most eye opening points in podcasting for me, I'm so glad that you like said, Hey, you should really think of going to that this year, you see all the different perspectives, right? Like what I used to think of as one perspective, like podcasting being very, you know, call it one dimensional, like putting audio out, all you really need is the host in the editing. Now, I can almost see it as the different departments of what we would compare to a radio station, right? There's your monetization and your metrics, there is Chase production there is, you know, what's your what's your marketing strategy? Like there's so many things to consider. And at Podcast Movement, you could participate in learnings about all those different things and come up with your kind of best, the way that it'll be best for you to do it as a podcaster. That's another thing. There's no wrong answer. There's many different ways to podcast. So finding out what works best for you is a huge part of it, too. Don't you agree? Matt Cundill  06:06 I do. Which leads me to the next question, which is, what have you needed to unlearn from radio in order to do the podcast thing? Sarah Burke  06:16 Ah, well, I mean, I always think about cat and Nat, and what they've been doing, like we learned that throwing together a podcast, in a vehicle, although not the best audio experience, can still build a great audience. And I know you and I are nerds where we want our audio to be the best. But I think one thing I unlearned was the power of a loyal audience, and an audience that is not determined by results that come in, in a ratings book. You know, you have real time stats, when you when you want to look at how your latest episode did or your monthly downloads or audience engagement consumption rates, like you can look it all up in two seconds. And you don't have to answer to anyone to do that you have your data, cheap Matt Cundill  07:03 and very amiable to change, by the way, because you can hear it in the women in media podcast, you started off, I'm going to be interviewing a lot of women in media, then some purpose begins to come into it. And I think a lot of that had to do with timing. So just for fun, I went and checked your biggest episodes of your podcast since you started. Do you know which ones they are? Sarah Burke  07:22 I'm gonna guess that Jen Valentine is still pretty up there. Number one, and number three. Okay, so who's in between Josie di Maureen Holloway, oh, Maureen and Wendy, I had them together, there Matt Cundill  07:34 is something that sort of strings those three together. And that's who they worked with, at q1 oh seven. And the store. Now I'm going to talk about this, because these are the big downloads. And this is the big issue. And you know, your podcast found a lot of purpose, especially, you know, bringing Jen Valentine on and others to tell their stories of women in media. And here you are, you're about to pivot and start a network in that thing. So how much is the podcast and what you've talked about in that podcast lead to the network? Sarah Burke  08:05 Well, they literally lead to one another, like they have back and forth communication, really, because I think that, you know, I will never stop wanting to allow women to tell their stories. But now there's a lot of different types of women telling their stories, and the definition of media has changed a lot. I think that's a big part of this. What I originally considered my guest, call it wishlist was TV sports, radio at the beginning. Now, I sort of think anyone who has a public profile doing something, whether it's real estate, or cannabis education, you can be on the women media podcast to talk about your experience in the spotlight as a woman in your own spotlight. So I've branched out to thinking about how we define media. And that's where, you know, I'll continue to tell those stories on my podcast. But what's even more exciting, though, is that there are a lot of women who want to tell their own stories, and other women's stories. And that's where we're going to grow all together in a little community. I don't think it's gonna be very little, to be honest. But Matt Cundill  09:15 so what's it gonna take to become part of the network? What are you looking for? Because I know people are sitting here going, Oh, I have to apply for that. Sarah Burke  09:24 This is not like me, auditioning for my arts, public school situation where you know, and then if you don't get cast in the school play, it's not like that. There's different tiers. And you know, for some people, it's just going to be, hey, I want to understand my data more. And I want to be hosted in a place with all of these people who I respect and admire and participate in community and resource sharing with them. So like the lowest here is just about hosting. A lot of people will have their own producer or producer themselves like even when you and I first talked, I was like I don't need you producing I Want to produce myself? And that's something to consider, especially about women in this day and age, a lot of self starters are out there who want to do their own things and be close to their own content that way. So, I mean, consistency is a lesson that I've really learned a lot about as both a podcaster and a producer in the last few years, I think you and I would share that lesson. Consistency is probably going to be the biggest thing like, and my boss at Sirius XM, back when I was with the company used to say, like, oh, everyone wants to start a podcast, everyone wants to start a radio show. But after week one, like will you actually do it every week. And the same thing applies here. Like, if you have an idea, and you've been talking to someone about your idea for a podcast for three years, and you haven't started it yet, that's going to be a red flag for me. You know, I'm going to ask you all those questions before I consider working with you. Because what I want is for my creators to be consistent so that they can succeed. So the term Matt Cundill  10:58 network brings up a lot of things, because there's lots of podcast networks out there. But what does it mean to be a part of a network with you. Sarah Burke  11:07 So in the resource sharing space, and community space, I think, you know, a community of people that you can share guest appearances with, depending on the podcast, you're looking for someone based on our network, we can probably find you someone through, you know, word of mouth, and those networks that we already have, like as individuals, right. So that's one part of it. And then monetization, you know, being able to play in the female space, I have one Creator on my network, I'm very inspired by her story. And we can talk about that after because she's telling a story about taking control of your life after domestic abuse. But she's part of the team that brought DSW to Canada. And a lot of her work surrounds the idea of the female consumer and how much power they actually have. So Matt Cundill  12:01 DSW that's the Shoe Warehouse, right? Yeah, I used to go to Florida shop there. But I kind of liked how I could just sort of like, wander around and sort of touch the shoes. Try them on. Sarah Burke  12:14 You kind of sound a little creepy. No. Yeah. The point I'm making though, is that she specializes in the female consumer, and branding and marketing to this person, call it your target demo if we were talking about radio, or podcasting, but what's been really interesting in thinking about how I'm going to monetize with this network is, all these creators have one thing in common, they're coming from a certain mindset about being a woman in traditionally male dominated spaces. And, you know, the spending power is usually women. So let's take advantage, right, I think the opportunities are endless. The podcast gaming, Canada is still in a very amateur state, I think you would agree. But I think you know, in a few years from now, it's gonna be really interesting. Yeah, Matt Cundill  13:02 Canada is smaller, it's 1/10, the size the US it's the same size as California, it can be a little bit more conservative in the ad buying sense. We've seen our programmatic ads, and our programmatic ads are very busy for anybody who downloads is in the US and not so much if you download it and candidates a little bit quieter. I get the affidavit reports on some podcasts that only get like 20% us listening, but they're getting 80% of the programmatic revenue. So that's kind of the disparity that that's going on. In Canada. There's it's just simply scale. But if somebody has a podcast, it doesn't matter. I mean, what country in the world there and you're willing to bring him on? Sarah Burke  13:41 And because of how immature the industry is here right now, I think it's it's an opportunity to experiment to take risks to see where things go, because you know, we have time to learn the best practices and the things that are going to work and the things that are going to be so shitty that we never want to do them again. So for example, right now, you know, I've been on my podcast working with an American organization that is kind of like the sponsorship answer to what I'm doing as a production house. And that's been really cool because they need inventory and I am you know, giving them my podcast just to try it out before I hook them up with some of my clients. But so far it's pretty interesting experience. Let's Matt Cundill  14:19 talk about some of your favorite toys namely Well the one you're using right now what are you using for microphone? Sarah Burke  14:25 This sir SM seven B. God bless the man who bought it for me who is no longer my partner but I will always thank him for this. Matt Cundill  14:33 Hey you want you want that that divorce? Congratulations. Squad caster Riverside. Sarah Burke  14:40 Well, we're on squad cast right now and I will say that even my experience joining the studio now you know, how many days has it been about 1000 days since I've joined you on squad cast? And my interest is piqued to play around with this a little more Riverside has been tried and true for me. I feel like I've been growing with that software. So the way that I use it, you know I'm just always like, oh, there's an update on this. Let me try that out. They've got lots of really cool. And I'm sure squad cast has this too. You can maybe speak to some of those things in more detail. But a lot of the new AI tools are really cool. Generating show notes in the back end. It's not that you want to cut and paste them word for word, but like when you're just, you know, end of a long day, and you got to put a podcast episode out to be able to say, what did we talk about again, and use that as your starting point to craft some great show notes. I love that feature of Riverside. I also love the fact that there's always a backup of your recording. So you know, something, I always say don't leave the room yet, because you take a couple of minutes to upload at the end. But there's a local backup recorded on everyone's computer. So if something gets lost or weird warbly sounds happen based on internet connection. There's something local that's going to upload after that you can fix all that. So those are some of my favorites. Matt Cundill  15:50 Squad cast has that I think the AI stuff is residing over in descript. So I was going to ask you about editing. So what do you like to edit with Adobe Sarah Burke  15:59 Audition? That's probably like a comfort thing. I have not ever done an edit with AI. Although Riverside does have that option to like clean up arms and spaces and pauses and all that. I like the human touch on editing. I feel like you're the same. Matt Cundill  16:16 I am I was just going to ask you though you kind of killed my question. I was gonna say Are you like one of those snobs? Who wants to like, listen to it and use the audio? And the answer is yes. And I think that's totally fine. Yeah, Sarah Burke  16:26 like, Could I be saving a touch more time probably. But here's another thing. And I don't know if you're like this with editing, I feel like people listen to podcasts while they're doing doing something they're on a walk, they're cooking their you know, whatever it is. So because of that, if you want to let go a little bit over every little detail, a great way to edit is just to listen as you're doing something and then when something catches your ear that you're like, Oh, I gotta fix that. That's when you go back to the recording and take out whatever you want, then continue listening. So it's almost like you're listening, kind of passively. But as the audience word Tara Sands (Voiceover)  17:01 transcription of the sound off podcast is powered by the podcast, Super Friends, five podcast producers who get together to discuss podcasting. Sharpen your podcast and creation skills by following the show on the soundoff podcast, YouTube or Facebook page. Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  17:20 This podcast supports podcasting 2.0. So feel free to send us a boost. If you're listening on a new podcast app, find your new app now at podcasting, two point org slash apps. That's podcasting. Two point org slash apps Matt Cundill  17:35 launched with a splash. Tell me who are some of the podcasters that you're working with in the network. Okay. Sarah Burke  17:45 I have not processed this yet. You just got verklempt. So a few weeks ago, some layoffs happened at Bell Media. And this forced a creator that I've been working with as a producer, and a co host for a year and a half to make a decision about their content, and loyalty to the person that they had worked with for more years than the my one and a half. And that person is Jen Arden. And the co host is Caitlin green. And they are now part of my network. And I'm I am blown away at the decision that Jen made to support her friend and colleague, but also that she trusts me enough with her content to know that this will be a good move for her as an independent creator. So to start that, like what an honor, I don't even know what to say about that. I can't believe it. I cannot believe it. Matt Cundill  18:43 So can you explain to those who might know about the importance of Jann Arden, a household name in Canada? Sarah Burke  18:50 You're right. And it's funny. I'm teaching podcasting at Western right now. Podcasting course. And you know, when I did guest speaking for the class, you had to pass the prerequisite to get into mind also to like, market the course a little bit because it's brand new. I'm like, show of hands. Who's heard of jannard in the room? It's a bunch of you know, I think they're 1920 around there. Gen Z. Yeah. And I don't think anyone knew who she wasn't. I was like, okay, okay, we're gonna call her daddy, all the hands go up. So that was really telling very early on in my teaching journey. But anyway, so to you know, any Americans that might be listening generation is a household name in Canada. She is an iconic musician, huge hits from the 90s. She's also done television shows screenwriting, and she does some comedy too. And she's still tours. She's actually just on a tour with Rick Mercer for spring in Canada, where they're talking about all the things that they've done before. So Jan is like a creator that I'm very proud to be connected with in this way. Matt Cundill  19:52 And another podcast that you're working with, and I know this because it's disappeared from my stack. Sorry, I'm sorry. Yeah, you and I were working on it together for the last eight or nine months. And it's one that is called trust me. I'm a decorator. Sarah Burke  20:07 Yes. With Debbie Travis and Tommy Smyth. And yeah, just for people who are like, Wait, what is going on with Matt and Sarah here and their business? So Matt is the podcast guy in Canada, as far as I'm concerned? You know, you've got a lot of like, big call it corporate podcast situations or branded content networks. I think when we're just talking about independent podcasting, Matt is the guy. So kudos, first of all, for all your knowledge, first of all of the industry, but also, you know, your education piece, I think you've been really educating a lot of creators in the space, including me for what's to come with podcasting in Canada. So we worked on a couple of podcasts together over the last year, Donna marrows through the fire, was another one. And, you know, through Jan, and her manager, Chris, who manages Tommy Smith, I ended up having a conversation with Debbie and Tommy about their podcast. And at that point, I didn't have my network. I don't even think I realized I was going to do this nine months ago. It was a seed that was planted, but it hadn't really like sprouted yet. Matt Cundill  21:11 Well, what's the moment when you thought, yeah, I could do this because there's always one. And usually, it's like over a drink in a bar. Or maybe it's at a conference, or maybe, like, where's the moment you say, Okay, I'm gonna do this. Sarah Burke  21:23 It must have been in July or August before Podcast Movement, because I remember saying the words out loud at Podcast Movement, the conference we went to in Denver for the first time. Hi, I'm Sarah Burke, and I'm starting a women's podcasting network in Canada. And then after I said it out loud. I was like, Oh, shit. Yeah, I got to do it. Now I have to do it. After Matt Cundill  21:43 the two free drinks. That happy hour. Off you go. Sarah Burke  21:47 The one I liked. The party I liked was tacos anyway. So yeah, Debbie and Tommy, two television personalities who they have a lot of other things going on in their lives. And they have built lots in their careers. But together they come together to do this podcast, little tongue in cheek with the title because they do talk decorating, but rarely. It's food, travel, life, advice, relationships, all those things, just to name another few creators on the network. Jessica Morehouse, the more money podcast. She's a monster podcast. Without me the fact that she joined the network. I'm again honored. And Jessica is talking about, you know, financial literacy. And she especially loves educating women in the space to not be intimidated by financial conversations. We've got beyond the sale, which is real estate podcast hosted by Cynthia ossos. And again, there's a piece there where she's very interested in speaking to women who have fulfilling careers as well as personalized. She's, you know, a mom of three, and the whole balancing act around that in a very, like, you know, how much work goes into real estate and it's kind of weird hours around the clock, all that kind of stuff. And who am I missing that? You've seen my back end? That sounds weird. Matt Cundill  23:01 I think you have a couple other you were talking to you, but it wasn't quite sure if you'd like sign them. So I didn't want to say anything at this point. You've named all the ones that are currently residing on your on Sarah Burke  23:10 the network. Yeah. Oh, okay. So ladies take control that is hosted by Katie Maris. So she has just come out of four years of abuse in so many ways. Her story is very inspiring. She's the DSW gal that we were talking about. Carlin Kosta, who is a psychotherapist, a sexologist, and a cannabis educator. She's also certified for like plant medicines in like all sorts of psychotherapy situations. Her podcast revolves around body image and neuro divergence. She has ADHD. And she recently reversed a weight loss surgery from when she was a young girl that has led to her and her diagnosis. And as a psychotherapist, she's also pretty funny. So I'm very excited about that podcast. And then I have Lisa limeroad, who is the president of RSG International. It's a road safety and infrastructure company. And, you know, when my colleague first approached me about this podcast, I was like, What is this podcast going to be about? Well, it's women in leadership, but talk about playing in a male dominated space. Lisa is a character and oh my goodness, like the first thing she says on her podcast when I'm like, recording with her is My name is not on the building. So why the fuck am I here? Like, okay, so anyway, all these women do have, you know, a thread in common, which I look for, which is amplifying women's voices and diversity and being very open minded to seeing new perspectives, community, all those things. So Matt Cundill  24:52 one of the best pieces of advice that I've ever gotten my whole life came from Maddie Stott at jam street media. He actually did Talk in 2021 in Nashville at Podcast Movement saying why you should not start a podcast network. And I blew right past that. And went right to Podcast Network. And I do I work with a lot of podcasts. A lot of them don't have a lot to do with each other. But how many know, Matt, there's 60 some odd podcasts that I work with. Okay, you Geez. Yeah. But again, I mean, some of them could have a little bit of a sports taken, some of them could have a lot of its business, a lot of it is just, you know, there's one real estate in there as well. Wellness, health, lots of wellness and health, you know, little different stacks. And the only reason I wanted to do a network was so that I could, you know, put promos in between, you know, all the health and wellness and all the sports and pair it all together so that we could promote Yeah, cross promotion, and to possibly, you know, get some programmatic money and some advertising options for creators. But this is a little different for you, because I could put women in media. Yeah, I get that I know exactly what that is. So here, you're wondering in through year one, what do you think's going to happen after the first year? Or what expectation might you have? Honestly, Sarah Burke  26:08 like, I just incorporated my business. So I'm like, I'm scared shitless right now, if I'm being honest, but I know that the people that I work with, trust me, and the people that I've chosen to work with, I trust them. So that is what's going to carry it forward. You know, if the network grows amazing, monetization wise, you understood what I was saying about taking risks right now, like try something if it doesn't work, well, you're not making money anyway. So you know, whatever. And then you find a better way. I've come from working on a podcast, like Jan's which was associated with Bell Media, for example, and the way that they do things, and then I've gotten knowledge from how you do things. And just putting all those experiences together sort of tells me that there is a better way to do some things that over here weren't working and are working over here. And that's why you're one I'm, I'm gonna give myself grace to take a bunch of risks. I think that's what it's about. Because you know, if anything is going to carry this forward, it will be the creators. Matt Cundill  27:13 When i Master look ahead, one year, I think to myself, Okay, we can make whatever predictions we want. But there's a lot in podcasts we don't control. So a good example, is the Apple podcasts. i Oh, yeah. Where it's kind of like, yeah, we've changed the way we're passing out the podcasts, and you're all getting 20% Less downloads. Sarah Burke  27:33 Well, maybe you want to explain that quickly, in case someone's listening who has no idea what the hell you're talking about? Because yeah, Matt Cundill  27:38 so very simply, if you were listening to podcasts on Sarah Burke  27:43 Apple, the little purple podcast, if you were using the purple app, Matt Cundill  27:48 what used to happen is, let's say you didn't listen to any of the last four episodes, Apple would pause that and stop downloading the show. No problem as of yet. But what would happen is when you came back said, oh, yeah, I do want to listen to that show again. And then you say, follow, what it would do is it would download the entire back catalogue that you missed. So that's like 1718 20, I don't know how long you were away. And I don't know how many episodes that would be. But a lot of downloads would just go to your phone, and you probably didn't listen to them. And by the way, ads would also be delivered. And that's not helpful. So there were some companies writing checks back to to advertisers in that period. So anyhow, Apple went and issued a correction. And from that people are seeing about 20 to 30%, less downloads, sometimes more, sometimes less, depending on how big your back catalogue is, and how often you're releasing episodes. So I mentioned that because when you make a prediction, this is what's going to happen this year, I'm going to promise you this many downloads, I'm going to promise you this much money. And I think the year is gonna go like this. It could be one little change that somebody makes along the way to really change it. So I asked you a prediction question. But in general, don't make too many predictions. But I did want to hear what you had to say. But I do feel sometimes it's like, hey, let's start a fire and see if we can't burn the whole thing down to the meantime. Sarah Burke  29:12 Well, another great example of something that we have no control over, but it's such a hot topic is YouTube, like what will YouTube as a company do in the next two years? Like? Who knows? Matt Cundill  29:23 That's a good question. So you do a lot of audio. So how do you plan to manage video for your clients? Sarah Burke  29:30 So a lot of them have specific requests to receive the video and do their own thing with it. You know, for example, like Cynthia has a great team, this fellow Owen, who works for a company called uplift studios, his own company. So they're doing all the production on the video and I'm like, great, because I can't do that for eight people. It's enough for me to like keep up with that on my own podcast. You know, the way we're recording right now in squad cast. The way that I think video works is the easiest way that you can make it work. So right now, personally, when I'm going into a recording, I'm treating it like a live environment and putting up the file cleaning up just the beginning and the tail at the end. And if I marked a timestamp, where it was like, gotta take that out that was inappropriate, or that was stupid, or whatever it is, or the guest was uncomfortable with something they said. Other than that, it's going up on edited. And I think one thing that you and I run into all the time is this idea that the audio edit can be the same as the video edit, I almost don't even want to go down that rabbit hole right now. But you have so much more opportunity to make great audio, if you're keeping up with the right workflow. So that's, I think, the important part. Whereas like with video, because it's great to have it, but it's an audio first format, your audio has got to be great. And if you have the video, even if you're not doing like the same intricate editing as audio, at least there is some video. That's the way I look at it. Sarah, Matt Cundill  31:00 thanks so much for joining me on the podcast. But most of all, congratulations on the launch of the new network. Sarah Burke  31:05 Was this because you were bored. You're just cutting me off at the video situation. We gotta go now. I was like, wow, work on your transition. Thank you for having me. Thank you for educating me and most of this industry in Canada, and doing what you do. Thanks. Tara Sands (Voiceover)  31:24 The sound off podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Sieminski, edited by Chloe multiplane. Social media by Aiden glassy, another great creation from the sound off media company there's always more at sound off podcast.com

Who is John? John "The Milkman" Mielke is a pioneer when it comes to bringing radio to the world wide web. John has two websites that any radio-head should be tuned into: MilkmanUnlimited.com is an incredible resource for keeping up with radio industry news. It also curates work for voiceover artists, including a few you may recognize from this show's credits, like Mary Anne Ivison and Matt Fogarty. On the other hand, BlastTheRadio.com is basically a 24-hour radio station without the "radio station" part. Meaning, there's no callsign or frequency to tune into. It's all online, but it still looks, feels and sounds just like your favourite radio stations. We discuss both sites, as well as the importance of the radio community in John's life (and his importance to the community). We also talk about John's public battles with depression and anxiety, the ways he's given back to local charity resources that helped him, and his plan to become an even more involved community service partner. Here's a hint: It involves a souped-up RV. Despite Milkman Unlimited being the premiere place to learn about radio layoffs for the last 30 years, John remains optimistic about radio's future, which I suppose means the rest of us should be too. If you want to know more about John, keep an eye out for his aptly-titled book, "Who Is John?" It'll go in-depth on some of the radio stories that made him who he is today, and should be coming out soon. John is still an active voiceover artist and radio host himself. You can catch him Monday to Friday, 10am-2pm on WSRQ in Sarasota, Florida. Transcript: Tara Sands (Voiceover)  00:02 The Soundoff Podcast. The show about podcast and broadcast starts now. Matt Cundill  00:13 I'm not sure anybody dislikes radio job cuts more than John Mielke. Maybe it's because he loves radio more than the rest of us. He has literally had to report every single layoff since 1995 on his Milkman Unlimited website. He himself went through some ruthless restructuring back in 2015, and since then, he created BTR: BlastTheRadio.com. It's a 24 hour station which looks and feels and sounds like radio, but it's on the internet. It seems that John and I always get together when there are big radio cuts. And I know what you're thinking. It's a wonder we don't do this thing more often. Here we go. John Mielke joins me from Ottawa, Ontario. So I have to take an inventory on what you're doing because I can never keep up. So I'll just call out the things I think you're doing, and you say yes or no, and then tell me if you're doing them and what this entails. So let's start with the morning show, which is Zoe and the Milkman. John Mielke  01:11 Which is a afternoon show now on BTR. Matt Cundill  01:14 And you're doing BTR, which is Blast The Radio, which anybody can access just by talking to a smart speaker. John Mielke  01:22 Pretty much. Matt Cundill  01:24 And when we ask the smart speaker to play it, what happens? What do we get to listen to? John Mielke  01:29 You got to be careful how you say it, because if you don't say it with a little pause between blast and the and radio- It's- I don't know what the station's- I think it comes from Japan. It plays Blast Radio. It's always an adventure. But yeah, you got to be very precise in how you call it to the speaker. Matt Cundill  01:46 Well, it could be worse. You could have named your podcast Soundoff, which is an instruction, so the device doesn't know what to do. John Mielke  01:53 Oh no. Oh, Matt, of all the people. Matt Cundill  01:58 Well, how was I supposed to know smart speakers would become a thing in 2016? John Mielke  02:02 They're too damn smart. Matt Cundill  02:03 Yeah. I'm not the only one with that problem. ABC has a news program called Start Here so they're not doing much better. John Mielke  02:10 There you go. Matt Cundill  02:11 So on BTR, how much Can Con do I have to listen to? John Mielke  02:14 You know what's interesting? When I started it, I went you know what, I don't need to play Can Con. I'm on the internet. There's no regulations that apply here regarding music. So initially, I launched I played zero, just because I didn't have to. And listening to it, you know, for- after all the years I've spent working on Canadian radio. It just sounded so weird. And so I added it back in. I don't keep track on percentages or whatever else. I would guesstimate though, Matt, just, you know, listening to the station. We gotta be between 25 and 30% without even trying. Matt Cundill  02:45 And BTR, it's largely- the best experience to listen to is an Ottawa experience because you will speak to some of the things that are happening locally, but it doesn't really matter where, you can listen to it anywhere and it's still wonderful. John Mielke  02:57 I've gone back and forth on how I want to position BTR. Do I want it to be an Ottawa only radio station? Do I want it to be a national service? Do I want it to be an international service? And right now it's kind of a hybrid of all that. Jeff Michaels is doing mornings he is, I guess, Alberta ordinarily. He's in Arizona for the winter. He's doing mornings for us. I've got Rusty doing an Oldies show every Wednesday. He's out of Oshawa, Whitby area, I got to be careful because if he's in Oshawa and not Whitby, or Whitby and not Oshawa, you know how that goes. I got contributors from all over the place. My my overnight show is Beat World Radio. So it's DJs from all over the world spinning from midnight till 6am. Weekend programming comes from different places. So yeah, it's kind of back and forth. It's definitely Ottawa based. It's definitely Ottawa influence. That's where it started unabashedly. I mean, I've taken on other responsibilities too. So I mean, full disclosure, I'm not on BTR nearly as much as I used to be, I'm doing a- every noon hour I record with Zoe, she's on her lunch break. And we've gone back and forth, even on that show. Do we try and make it you know, something that's gonna go after, you know, syndication? Should we be heard internationally? We're gonna market this thing in the states. And listen, I've been listening to a lot of your conversations with people I respect like Erin Davis and Terry and Ted, etc. And, you know, the conversations they have about their realisation, being in the podcast space, especially that, you know, I'm not in Joe Rogan's world, I can't monetize this the same way if I'm trying to be that big. But I do have great relationships locally. So why don't I just do an awesome podcast that is local, and especially with all the cutbacks that are going on with news, etc, etc, etc. There's an opportunity there, and I've really listened to that and taken that to heart. So with Zoey, we've kind of taken a step back and revisited the show. And we're really full on right now with making sure that it's a full hour, six breaks in the hour, and as much local conversation as we can. Matt Cundill  04:55 So one of the words that keeps coming up in the podcast world is the idea of community. And I guess you would know this better than anybody, because you started one of the first radio communities, just with Milk Prep way back in the day. I know I keep going back to this, but you know how it all comes around. People are like well, how do I- how do I monetize my podcast? Or how do I monetize my business? And this idea of community is really where it's at. It's not just a bunch of people who listen to your station and saying, okay, you're part of a community, it's the people who interact with your brand and you and what you're doing. John Mielke  05:33 You know, it's funny, I never thought of Milk Prep like that. And you got to be a certain vintage to remember it being called Milk Prep. But yeah, that's kind of how it started. When you say community, my first thought is when I launched BTR, because it was happenstance. I'd lost my job at Bell Media after 23 years, I was sitting around and flipping through my phone, and I stumbled upon an app from Mix LR is the name of the company, and it was just broadcast yourself. And I thought, wow, that's kind of neat. And they've got this little interface on your phone. So you know, I got a studio, all I need to do now is figure out how do I get the studio plugged into my phone, because I'm an idiot. And I didn't go looking for their website to see if there might be a web interface, which there is. Anyway, jerry rigged the phone, but all this to say, they include a chat room with their service. Now, if you had asked me when I was launching the radio station, would you like a chat room with that? I would have laughed and laughed and laughed. Yeah, sure. ICQ is online, too. Why don't I just add that back to things? I never would have added it. It ended up being the very thing that put us on the map, because people got to engage with the radio station, got to engage with the performers. And it was wild. I mean, there were days we'd get 500 people in a chat room, just talking about the day, talking about the music, talking about what was going on. And from there, it grew into Twitch, which again, has a chat component to it. So it's- my first thought about community is that, but you're absolutely right. Milkman and Milk Prep. Very much a community. Yeah. Matt Cundill  07:02 Oh, wait, you do Twitch? John Mielke  07:04 I do. Matt Cundill  07:06 Tell me how that works. Because I've only had a few people on that- that can talk to it. Don Collins was- John Mielke  07:11 Well, he'd be the guy. Matt Cundill  07:12 Yeah, he was the guy. At one point who was- who was spearheading, let's get some radio and content creators onto Twitch. He's no longer there. John Mielke  07:20 Oh, he's who recruited me to Twitch. Matt Cundill  07:21 Yeah. And so tell me about the Twitch experience. John Mielke  07:24 So Twitch is owned by Amazon. I don't know if people know that. Originally a platform that went after gamers. So I mean, if you like hockey, you can watch the NHL on TSN, Sportsnet, etc. You've got- you know, lots of places to see that. Football, baseball, basketball the same thing. But gaming is so huge. If I'm a gamer, and I want to watch really good gamers play and draw tips from that and make my own, you know, gaming better, Twitch was that space. Amazon saw an opportunity to go after YouTube. And they and Don had some sort of conversation somewhere, how it happened, I don't know. But they wanted to go after performers, and build that space, and create an opportunity for them to monetize what they are doing. The problem of course is when you're doing music based radio, well, how do I get onto a platform like Twitch? As we know, you can't even play, you know, the songs playing in the background of the grocery store without Facebook and Twitter, etc. muting you because you don't have rights to the music. Well, Don made that happen. He had the conversation saying, look, I'm going after radio people, you want me to get performers on here. We got to give them, you know, a little wiggle room on the music, and Twitch has- has given us that wiggle room. So we've been able to stream music on Twitch. I don't know how, I don't ask questions. We've just been able to do it. But Twitch was interesting, especially when you're doing talk programming, which I did a good bunch of a while back. I had the legendary Lowell Green on with us. He and I were doing a talk show together. And Twitch again offers a chat room and it offers you a chance to monetize. So the way that works, get the Twitch app on your phone, you go to your app store and you buy what are called bits. It's a currency. And if I really like what anybody on Twitch is doing, I can donate my bits to them, the person, the performer, then gets a check at the end of the month. Amazon will actually deposit that. The other cool thing about it, if you're an Amazon Prime subscriber and you really like a certain person's channel, you can go on and say, this is my favorite Twitch channel. It doesn't cost you anything more, Amazon Prime actually gives the channel owner five bucks a month on your behalf. So it was a great way for me to make a couple of bucks when I really needed to make a couple of bucks. But it really works best when you're actually doing engaging content. Us just playing music on Twitch doesn't catch an audience at all.  So you must be recruiting talent all the time for BTR. I try. It's a different space, though, right? And I understand this. There's a lot of really talented people out there who would love to be back on the radio in some way, shape, or form. Of course, as you and I know, we're doing this from home right now. You can do radio from home right now, but they want that paycheck. How much is this going to pay me? Well, the opportunity I offer is very different. I've got the website. I pay for the app. I I pay for the music licensing, I pay for the automation software, all of that is done. So you don't have to worry about any of that. And whatever you sell for your show, you keep. But that's where it kind of falls apart. People get really freaked out of the idea of having to go and sell what they do, which- I get it. Is that really any different than when you sit down at a job interview, you're asking for the job, you're asking to get paid. Matt Cundill  10:26 But you're better than the rest of us at that, because you've been receiving checks since about 1995 for things and the rest of us have not been doing that, like you understand it's a business. You've explained it to people that it's a business. In fact, I've seen you go on Milk Prep and say, Hey, everybody, the classifieds part is a business. And I'm sorry, you don't like the blind box, but that's just the way it goes. And I'm sorry that you don't like this company. I don't need you banging on the people who are paying me money. This is a business. So I mean, you come some kind of pre programmed to be a little bit in sales here. The rest of us do not. John Mielke  10:58 You know what's ironic about that? My very first professional job out of college- I always knew I could be on the air. Like I always knew that. Like day one, John Henderson at Loyalist College tapped me and said, you're gonna fill in for me Saturday and Sunday mornings on CIGL. And I know Erin Davis was just talking about her experience at CIGL, brought back some great memories of the kalam music reel to reel systems, etc. My first year, he- Yeah, he put the first year student to do that. So I knew, like on air was inherent to me. Even in high school, I was DJing and doing some radio stuff at the local university station. So I knew I could fall back to that. Anyway got into sales, and about eight months in the general manager and I sat down, we- we agreed that you know, John should never ever, ever, ever, ever try and sell anything anywhere, anytime. He's horrible at it. So ironically, yeah, in a roundabout kind of way, I guess I do have to sell. Look. I mean, if you want to eat, if you want- if you got bills to pay, you gotta figure out a way to get paid. Asking for money is not a dirty thing. The person working at the convenience store down the road, when you want to buy a pack of gum, they're going to ask you to get paid. My money, give me my money, please. It's not a dirty thing, and people need to get over. And people in radio need to remember too, you are in sales, even in an on air capacity. You are in sales, you're selling me on your music being better. You're selling me on your format being better, your weather being better, everything you do on the air is sell, sell, sell, sell, sell. The only difference is how much will you pay me to do this? Matt Cundill  12:20 A lot of people don't know this, unless they follow you closely on social media. And that's- you have a station vehicle. John Mielke  12:28 Like, is that not the best story? Matt Cundill  12:30 There are some stations that don't have station vehicles. John Mielke  12:33 Well, that's true. The short story on that is, I've always had a vision. And listen, we saw it back in the 70s-80s. There are a lot of stations that used RVs they modified into mobile studios that they'd show up at, you know, the Central Canada Exhibition with, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, live on location. So I've long had a dream that, gosh, you know, how cool would it be to have a big honkin vehicle with signage that could show up at events, you know, be a real community service partner with a PA system and everything that comes with it. And I happened to mention that I still have this dream. But then I said, it could be a podcast studio and a broadcast studio. And what I would really love to do is tie in a mental health component to this, because I'm someone who's had a long, very public battle with depression and anxiety. And I've been very, very lucky that I've got great coaching and great support and I'm in a really good place. I'm okay, so I give back to mental health charities and foundations and fundraisers whenever I can. So I thought let's get this thing on the road. If I can find a cheap RV, let's get it on the road. And let's do a podcast where people when we're set up at community events or live and locations can just drop by and have a conversation five minutes, half an hour whatever about their experience with mental health. Well, a couple approached me they said we bought an RV couple years ago, our intent was to retire and travel well my husband sick thing has been sitting in a field for four years. It's got squirrels living in it pretty rundown, pretty nasty looking. We were gonna put it on Kijiji for six grand, but we love the idea that you've got. It's yours for three grand. Okay, now I just need to find three grand. So I put it out there on social media. Here's my dream. Here's the opportunity. Within a few hours I had raised close to $7,000 we acquired this RV it's 28 feet. It was Matt it. It sat in a field for four years it literally had squirrels living in it. It was badly vandalized it had broken into people took the fire extinguisher and just coated the entire dashboard, every nook and cranny with that stuff from fire extinguishers, mud, dirt, everything the cabinet's ripped off the hinges, and I spent two winters ago just putting this thing back together again, gluing it, deep cleaning it, etc. And by spring we had it on the road. So yeah, it's a 28 foot RV. It's called the BT RV for mental health donated exclusively to us from our listeners and a good base of really great local businesses in Ottawa. And we went to all kinds of events last year from Ottawa to well, actually Peterborough would be as far south in Ontario as we got so Peterborough, Kingston, Ottawa, all through Quebec, and all the way to New Brunswick, and back again, really, really amazing. Matt Cundill  15:25 I think I want to play therapist for a little bit, because you mentioned therapy. John Mielke  15:29 Okay. Matt Cundill  15:29 So let me go back, and ask you to go back to- how much time was it between when you were let go from radio- and when I mean radio, I mean Bell, because I think you were at Bob at the time. And when you went to a therapists office, and the therapist said to you, who is John without radio? And then that caused a little panic inside of you. But what was it- how much time between being let go, and then that happening? Two years? John Mielke  15:57 So that happened a little later. So I had a battle with depression. I had my breakdown live on Bob FM, live during Bell Let's Talk Day, every- I had been sick for a while and going to see my doctor, you know, went through the stress test, heart test, everything. But nothing was turning up. You know you're a little heavy, you've got some cholesterol issues. But you know what, you're also in your 40s. This is normal stuff. This is nothing we can't manage, but nothing out of the ordinary. And on that day, there was just- you know, the conversations that I was hearing were ticking boxes. And suddenly, by the end of my shift, I'm going, oh my god, I think I've come to a realization here, and I called my doctor, I said, I need to see you this afternoon. And it just became overwhelming. So I had a breakdown on the air, was off for three months, was back on. Fast forward to- Yeah, they let me go. It was traumatic, because nine days earlier, my wife who had worked for Sears for 22 years, lost her job. We knew that was coming. She worked for an amazing boss. The writing was on the wall at Sears. And she said my job is to get you out of here with some money, which fortuitously they did. So we had accounted for that. What we didn't account for was that nine days later, nine days later, on my first day off on two weeks vacation. Can you come in for a meeting? Oh, really? Okay. That was late October. By December 2nd/3rd, I was- I had launched BTR. And I launched it because the conversations I've been having about my mental health online, they needed to continue. I couldn't just walk away from that audience and into that platform. So that's where it launched. It was around tax time in the spring. So Sue had her severance, I had my severance. And we went to see the accountant, they care, our taxes, whatever else and the guy got it from I was just having a bad day of depression. I was really in a bad spot already. And drag my buddy into his office, he got up and he high fived me for all the money I had made that year who was to severance packages. It wasn't it wasn't a celebratory opportunity. And it Damn near killed me. It was later that afternoon, I admitted myself to the hospital. I called the distress center. I said I'm not coping well with this. And they actually stayed on the phone with me. They call the head of the hospital. He's coming in. We're worried about this guy. So yeah, I was in hospital on a three day security watch. And it was in the hospital. It's all a blur. But the first night, the on call psychiatrist, had a conversation with me just to sort of, you know, what's going on here and start putting things together. And I guess I had said something in the conversation about, oh, I have these conversations about mental health on my radio show. Okay. Well, he's back the next day. And we're talking again, within a few seconds. I said, I know exactly what you're saying. I bring this up all the time. Whenever I bring mental health up on my radio show, he snapped his fingers out. He said, Okay, we're gonna cut the bullshit. Do you do this with your regular therapist? Because if you do, I'm calling your regular therapist. And I'm gonna point this out. You're not going to do it with me. He says everything that you talk about is radio. It's radio, radio, radio, radio, radio. We're going to take radio away from John. Now, who's John, scare the hell out of me? Because this is all I've ever wanted. I mean, you talk to so many people, they all have the same story. It's all we've ever wanted to do. My earliest memories were sitting in front of the radio listening to Ken "The General" Grant on CFRA. Marching me off to school. Matt Cundill  19:16 Yeah, I had the same experience as well. It's funny, you mentioned Central Canada Exhibition, just off the cuff and I went, oh, yeah. I was there in 1982, 1983, 1985. And CFRA was live from the cat- they were by the Cattle Castle. John Mielke  19:33 Front entrance. Matt Cundill  19:35 And I think CFGO was there. John Mielke  19:38 Every time. Matt Cundill  19:39 I think CJOH did the news from there. John Mielke  19:42 100%. Matt Cundill  19:43 Yeah, and I was working overnight in the Cattle Castle, literally shoveling shit, which is later when I did in radio as well on air. Yeah, thanks. But yeah, it was so impressionable. John Mielke  19:57 But I mean, it took me forever to sort of unwravel that, you know, who is John? I haven't had to think about- and I knew what he was saying. And whenever I put it out there people are like, oh, John's, this, John's that. But at the foundations of it, it's like, no, no, there's gotta be more to you than radio. Have you ever examined you as a human being and what you value? It's all the things we talk about in radio, you know, but being relatable, et cetera? What is it that you know, ties you to a community? What other things do you like that you can talk about on the radio? Because you don't talk about radio on the radio? So what are those things you really hold near and dear? And it took me a good seven years to kind of come up with an answer, which I'm finally going to put down on paper, I've got a book coming out. And the book is actually called Who is John, and the entire point of the book, tell my story a little bit, absolutely, hopefully offer some inspiration, whether you're, you know, radio capacity, your broadcast capacity all or not just, you know, that it's never the end, that there's always you know, if you're creative, and you're good, and you're smart, and you're willing to take a risk, there's an opportunity for you to move past to, you know, still do what you feel you were put here to do. And in the book, I answer the question, Who is John? Because there is a lot more to me than just radio. Matt Cundill  21:16 There's so much that- what is done in radio, and what we're doing now, and anytime you get behind a microphone, that is tied to identity. And so I'm not sure if you have a lot of dreams that would involve wallets, backpacks, things like that. It's more of a female thing, like purses, for instance, that their identity is sort of a little bit attached by what's inside those things. John Mielke  21:37 I see where you're going. Yes. Matt Cundill  21:39 Listen, I study the Jungian dream stuff all the time, and I'm not quite sure what it is for males so much. But yes, I find many of the settings for dreams that I have are still inside radio stations, even though I'm long gone, and haven't been inside a radio station and getting paid at the same time in over 10 years. That's still a thing. So I bring it back to identity. And you know, who is John? Well, you're immediately looking for a little bit of identity right there. So- but we- we spend every waking moment in the radio career shaping identity of the radio station, of personality. What are you going to do in this break? How's it going to make people feel? And what- and how can I identify with people, everything just comes from that. I look forward to your book. John Mielke  22:25 Yeah, I look forward to it being out there too. And I've been putting little bits and pieces here, just- not- not getting into the heavy stuff, and suicide attempts and all that stuff, that'll be in the book. But certainly some great memories I have of people that I've met Rick Dees, I got a great story coming out next a little bit about how being the Roughrider Rooster mascot actually led me back into radio and got me the job at Cool FM with CHUM, which, you know, Bell Media acquired and I was there for 23 years. So you know, fun little things like that. So that those are, that's one chapter in the book. And each one is sort of a little story within it. But I've been you know, putting that out there because I really do want to have a light side to this, I really want people to read the book and have a laugh along the way in what is been a pretty dark, you know, period of time that really, you know, inspired the book in the first place. Matt Cundill  23:13 So a few more things as my therapy session with you continues. John Mielke  23:17 Yes, Doctor. Matt Cundill  23:17 Right now. So when Bell, and I'll single out Bell because it happens with them more often than not. But layoffs in general, when they occur, I get a little bit out of sorts, like I wake up bothered. And I said, well, I've got a business to run, but I'm still bothered. And you're also exceptionally bothered by it. And a lot of people- like people will start texting me, everybody who has been through the experience of it will start to text me, or we will all start to talk, or we will congregate and often it could be on the Facebook group that you run. It could be anywhere, just people talking about, oh, this shit again, this is all happening again. I feel a little bit re-victimized. You know, or feel that people are being re-victimized that they know what the people who are getting let go are going through, and feel this empathy for them. John Mielke  24:06 And a lot of it too, I'm sure you'd agree, is just- we all have such passion for this business. We already talked about that. You know, you're how many years out of the business and you still think about it. You haven't been in a radio studio forever. But you still have dreams about it. And I think that's lost on some of the bigger companies who don't have that intimate association with radio. They didn't grow up wanting to be in radio, they saw a business to acquire, which helped them promote other things. So it's always in I hate the word triggering but it's the buzzword du jour. It is very triggering for people who've been through the experience because in I get probably to my detriment. I probably absolutely to my detriment. Look, I run milkman unlimited. Bell is a company who has been very good to me, as far as that partnership is concerned. They have continued to advertise job postings with me. And I've had to walk a very fine line in that, right because I worked for them I was let go by them, I was traumatized by being let go and afraid of losing my house and you know, watching the health package that I had disappear and not being sure what's what and all this confusion, whatever else, but I've still got to be in business with them, I gotta walk that fine line, and I got to be careful. And I will get carried away because I've got such passion for the business. And because I've got such empathy for people who have been affected by this, I understand. And it's easy for them to say, it's not you. This is just business. It's not just business, this is people's lives, and the impact that it has is devastating. So I do get my backup, and I do get very vocal, more and more so lately, because I'm not afraid to say it anymore. Maybe it has to do with my age. You know, I'm 55 now and I just I see it differently. If it affects the business, it affects the business, but dammit, I got to stand up for radio at this point. Because it's it's such an important thing with all what's going on in the world, not just for the media in general. And in the news side of things. I've always viewed the news departments as really the official opposition to the government. They're the ones asking the questions on behalf of Canadians and to watch that evaporate. It's it's, I don't even want to say heartbreaking. It's maddening. It's infuriating, because we need that. So see, I get all riled up. Matt Cundill  26:38 Yeah, I know. And listen, there are people watching this saying, what are these crybabies all about? And I'm here just to tell you that this is not like getting let go from the bank. You are asked every day to go in and to shape and to be and to be empathetic and to reach out and touch someone and put it all on the line. And in a moment it's gone. That's very, very difficult for people. I've had so many people on this podcast, yourself included. Mary Anne Ivison comes to mind, people who when they talk about the process of getting let go, have broken down in tears. Because it is not the same as well, I got let go from the bank. I'll just go to the other bank. It's not- what you're being asked to do every day- John Mielke  27:19 Being let go from any job is traumatic, right? Matt Cundill  27:22 Yes, this- this one, especially a little bit more though. John Mielke  27:26 I don't know of anybody who has ever worked at a bank, I don't know of anybody who's ever worked at a law office, or retail, who has been called in on their day off, it happened to be my day off. Okay? But not just me being called in. The entire on Air Staff being gathered together in the boardroom, where the program director who you reported to wasn't even in the room. You've got the general manager and vice president of the company reading from a script, an HR person you have no relationship with who's been flown in to deal with this. We thank you for your service at the radio station, it's just business, but we're going in a different direction. Moments ago we flipped the switch and we are now a country station, and then as a team, and we're a team, had to go stand in line outside the HR office and wait our turn while our now former coworkers walked by, saying the hell's going on. And wait for some person you don't even know to hand you a package and tell you how sorry you are that they had to be there on this day to do this to you. It's cold, it's callous, it could have been handled so much better. Like it was literally a month or so earlier. The same guy that read that script and let me go was handing me an award for 23 years of service. Don't- don't do that to people. It's awful. Like you had to have known two weeks earlier, a month earlier, that this is going to happen so it's just it's that that- that more than anything bothered me. Look there's- we all know, if we ever wa- if you watch WKRP in Cincinnati, it's all Johnny Fever talked about. Being fired from a radio station no big deal. I'll move on to the next radio station. Easier then than it is now. Right, you got a lot fewer options now. But that's- that's the business. You haven't really worked in radio unless you've been fired. We all expect it. We all know what's going to happen, we will understand that formats change and things change but to gather us as a group and do that? That's what really hurt me the most. Tara Sands (Voiceover)  29:36 Transcription of the Soundoff Podcast is powered by the Podcast Super Friends, five podcast producers who get together to discuss podcasting. Sharpen your podcast and creation skills by following the show on the Soundoff Podcast's YouTube or Facebook page. Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  29:54 This podcast supports podcasting 2.0, so feel free to send us a boost if you're listening on new podcast app. Find your new app now at Podcasting2.org/apps. That's Podcasting2.org/apps. Matt Cundill  30:09 Let's just touch a little bit on news, because you mentioned that it's so important to keep government in check. And there's less and less of it. So when I was in radio, back in the olden days, which was about maybe up to 10 years ago and longer- John Mielke  30:25 I'm quickly coming to that realization, that yeah, I was in radio a long time ago, nine years ago, a lot has changed. Matt Cundill  30:31 But news was never a moneymaker. And now Bell is saying, well, you know, we can't make any money on it. So we're gonna get rid of it. And I'm like, no, your promise of performance is to inform and put the news on the air. You make your money by playing the hits. John Mielke  30:48 That's exactly it. That's exactly it. Thank you. Matt Cundill  30:51 And at some point, they got- somebody went and said, well, we'll just, you know, count differently. And we'll put all the news in one pile and said well, look at that, we're losing money. We- we can't sustain this. What are you talking about? John Mielke  31:04 News is what gives your station- especially in TV, that's what gives your station the identity. You talked about your memory of CJOH broadcasting live from the Central Canada Exhibition, Max Keeping, Carolyn Meehan, the whole gang was there, JJ was doing weather the whole nine yards. And people stood there and watched the news. You know, from Lansdowne Park, they were mesmerized by it was that connection to the community? Look, news is never going to make you money. Absolutely. But it's not that easy. And you said it exactly right. It's the promise of performance. It's the we want to be in the broadcast business. We require a broadcast license to be on am FM or television as part of our requests to be granted a license on the public airwaves. We promise to serve the community. And here's how x number of hours of news, which is the biggest connection to the community, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And then they just dismiss it as if it doesn't matter. Except it does. It's the be all end all. It's everything to a TV station. Matt Cundill  32:11 And what you have now, because you look like you're in a radio station, you've got- you've got a radio in back of you in the radio station, you've got a set- another microphone over there. I love what you've done. I love what you've done with the place, John. Do you think of yourself as a radio station? John Mielke  32:26 No. Matt Cundill  32:27 Because I do, here's how I interact with my devices. I will ask to listen to 107.1 The Peak, which is a great radio station out of Hudson Valley, New York, or I will ask to listen to BTR, and I will ask slowly and properly in order to- to receive it. I can do the same in my car. My presets are in my head. I will ask said devices to play me this stuff. Or if I'm in the car, I will use TuneIn or I will use the iHeart app. You're as much of a radio station as anything else. So I look and listen and it all feels the same to me. John Mielke  33:06 Okay, so if your question is do I think of BTR as a radio station? Matt Cundill  33:10 Yeah. John Mielke  33:11 Yes. 100%. Do I think of myself as a radio station? No, I think of myself as a radio visionary as an entrepreneur. Because I'm not just doing BTR as you know, and we haven't had a chance to get to that. And I'm sure you're you're going to there's a whole lot must have going on in this room. This tiny little room in my basement is a very, very busy place every single day and extends beyond here. I've got you know, a voice booth outside where I do, you know, station imaging and commercial voiceovers for clients, etc. So no, I don't think of myself as a radio station. I think of myself as someone. Yeah, for the longest time it was radio, radio radio, I've really come to understand that I'm in a different space. Now radio is part of it, a broadcaster. But I'm someone who's really gravitating to everything that the internet has to offer. And the one thing I really do recognize about myself that I didn't understand for the longest time, I have a really uncanny ability to see where things are going. I'm way ahead and I stand back and I get very frustrated because Why can't people see what I see. And I actually had a listener say that to me years ago, she says, you know, your problem is, you're already in the endzone, celebrating the touchdown. And the 23 other players on the field, they have yet to realize the balls even been snapped. Like you need to recognize that about yourself. So because I have this intuitive understanding of the internet and how it can be harnessed, and how how we can harness podcast, and Twitch and all of these things to make radio as the foundation really leap into the minds and imaginations of listeners again, I don't see anything happening on that front every single day. I don't see other people standing up going here's how to do this. Let it be Let's get excited. My 21 year old niece is living with us while she goes to university. She and I talk about radio all the time, and she laughs at me the amount of work a radio company would have to draw her age group back to that medium is I don't know, how do you even begin to do that? It's got to be so unbelievably compelling and exciting. And where do you even market to them? Social media, I guess. But I mean, it's it's such a lost opportunity that, I mean, we were all in on conversations where, look, it's the 25 to 54 year olds, we don't care about anything younger, that's where the money is at. And we didn't grow new audiences. So yeah, I don't think of myself so much as a radio station anymore. It's the how it's out. You know, there's only so many hours in the day, how do I bring all of this vision that I have to use video components and podcast components and bring this all together and really, you know, make it the magical thing that it always has been, but can be again, just in a new box. Matt Cundill  36:06 What else is BTR that we haven't spoken about yet? Because I know there's some podcasts in there as well. John Mielke  36:12 Yeah, there's definitely some there's a lot of podcasts going on. There's a lot of voiceover work going on here as well, but just me personally, so I'm voice tracking a ton of stations every single day from here. So my day starts at 5:30am, I'm up and I'm on the bike for a little bit. I'm in the studio by six the first order of business is making sure that my show notes on the night before are still applicable has really changed overnight. But from six till about 7, I'm voice tracking for a station that I worked for in Sarasota, Florida, so I'm the midday guy at WSRQ, which is a classic 60s 70s 80s classic hits. Lot of fun to do that, every now and then they've got me filling in on the station in Erie, Pennsylvania as well, which has been a real good experience and one of those things that whenever the topic comes up of oh, listen, voice tracking man, I don't know about voice tracking. It's got to be live, it's got to be local. Well yeah, but when you voice track and you do it right and you really immerse yourself in a market- The tools I'm using to be local in Sarasota are exactly the same as the tools I'd be using if I was actually local in Sarasota, right? I'm- there's a traffic accident on i-75. Well, I'm gonna fire up the highway patrol cameras. I'm gonna see what's going on and report that back. I can. It's not in real time, but it's a minute or two after I voiced it and uploaded it. So middays on WSRQ, I take a little break there, grab myself a little breakfast, and then I'm back in here, and I voice track the afternoon show for FM 101 FM 92 FM 101.5 Milton Orangeville Simcoe, Ontario. It's one show three stations. take another little break in there. And then I voice track the afternoon show that airs on MIX 106.5 in Owen Sound. So that's my day. Then I get back into the studio at noon, Zoe and I record then, she works in real estate full time. So she spends her noon hour with me. We do six segments that then air on BTR between two and three, I edit that down into a podcast, isolate the video clip, the video clip goes on to social media to help promote the show. Yeah, and then I'm on to, you know, the podcasts, etc, that I've taken on that I've also got the responsibility for, so this is much more than just BTR. Plus, I'm doing the music scheduling, the commercial scheduling, the commercial writing, the commercial production. It's a busy little place. Matt Cundill  38:23 In summary, this all appears that you're very viable. John Mielke  38:27 Isn't that shocking? Yes. Matt Cundill  38:31 I didn't want to let the episode escape us without working that word into the whole thing. John Mielke  38:37 It's- that word is forevermore. Matt Cundill  38:40 What did you think when you heard Robert Malcomson say that, you know, radio is not a viable business? John Mielke  38:46 You follow me on social media. You know damn well what I thought. How dare you say that? And what a slap in the face. I would love to get- sit down for a beer, you know, with some of the people of Vista, and you know, John Pole, and MBS. Mr. Pace, and all who, on that very same day, just forked over a ton of money and signed an agreement to take over the radio stations. And then they're told the radio stations you just bought. Yeah, it's suckers. I mean, exactly. And by the way, I don't know when you're gonna put this on. But as we're recording this, I am aware of more layoffs that happened today. I can't say where. But I know that the owner of the radio station, put the wheels in motion for the layoffs because, gee, Bell says this isn't a viable business. Maybe I better get out. The repercussions of that comment are just unbelievably damaging to this entire industry. And yeah, can you imagine you buy a car from someone and as you're driving down the driveway, they're like, hahahaha, you bought a beater, bye. How angry would you be? Matt Cundill  39:52 Oh, and you also still have employees by the way who are still working, getting a paycheck from you, and you just called what they do- they're now working in not a viable business. John Mielke  40:02 Radio is a viable business. Matt Cundill  40:04 Oh, is it ever. John Mielke  40:05 You have to have an understanding of what it can do, and what you want it to do. I'm not seeing a lot of evidence of that. I see a lot of commercials on TV for radio and that's nice. I'm gonna set myself up again for probably a little bit of a slap in the wrist for this. I don't care. How in the hell do you hire Tarzan Dan, put him on 22 radio stations. I love the guy. He's one of my best friends. Put him on 22 radio stations, hav him do the media tour for an entire week appearing on every single newscast that CTV has local. And then Super Bowl Sunday rolls around. You got the broadcast. But the commercials you're airing for Bounce are still just talking about, we play 80s and 90s. You couldn't even reavoice that to mention Tarzan Dan? You hired a goldmine. Matt Cundill  40:57 Well, you know what, for the very first time in my life, I can listen to Tarzan Dan terrestrially in the place I live, for the very first time. And I'm like, I can't wait to get in the car and go listen to him on 99.9 here in Winnipeg. John Mielke  41:11 We just talked. Looking for that marketing opportunity that will bring people back to the radio. It's stuff like that, that you know, when it's not a viable business. It is when you pay attention to things like that. To me, that's a huge missed opportunity. You know, and then, of course, the next day, the ratings come out, biggest viewership in the history of the Super Bowl in Canada. And you didn't tell anybody about this person, this legend, that you just hired for 22 of your radio stations. It's viable, it is viable. And the new owners recognize that and will do a great job with it. Matt Cundill  41:46 Very astute of you, by the way to have- to have thought of that. If you'd run down the hall Friday at five, I would've worked late to make that happen. John Mielke  41:52 I mean, what would it have taken to reimage that and reupload that? Nothing, Matt Cundill  41:57 There are changes that happen all the time. And I'm like, let's see if anybody is going to come in and fix that for the weekend. Let's say they move like the time of a sporting event or something like that, or an NFL game or something. So let's see if anyone is gonna come in and fix that. And then often they don't. I know I would. John Mielke  42:12 They should? If it matters, you would. Matt Cundill  42:14 Yeah. John Mielke  42:15 It has to matter. And that's- that's the thing. If it's not a very viable business, it's because you- it didn't matter to you. Matt Cundill  42:21 I have a radio station in town, a Bell station as it were, that got refunded. They just turned it off. And I thought to myself, it's an AM station, the frequency is 1290. There was a sports station there then it was a funnies station, a comedy station. John Mielke  42:34 That was a cop out. Matt Cundill  42:35 And now it's nothing. And I thought would I buy that for $1? And I don't think I would buy it for $1. John Mielke  42:41 AM? No. No back- back in the day, there was some thought to hanging on to AM stations because it would give you an advantage when everything moved digital. Well, everything moved digital, but not in the way we thought it would, right? Digital for conventional broadcasters, is now the addition of a stream online, on a smart speaker, on an app. I can't get too upset with any broadcaster wanting to take AM off the air. You could have a very- this is a quote from Rob Farina who I used to work for years ago, but I love the quote. You could have a really, really great store in a dead mall. There's nobody coming to your store. And that's the AM band right now. There's- the sound quality isn't there. The expense? You know, for what is it five, seven transmitters to run an AM station? Seven times the power etc. It's cost prohibitive. Unless you can flip it to FM, I wouldn't touch an AM station. Even if I had that dollar. No way. Matt Cundill  43:45 And who knew I'd be coming to you for business advice? I like that. Thanks. John Mielke  43:50 It's a good relationship. We- we bounce a lot of stuff off each other occasionally. Matt Cundill  43:54 Hey, you said bounce. I like where you went with that. John Mielke  43:57 You're welcome, Bell. See, I'm not such a bad guy after all. Matt Cundill  44:00 Yeah. Because you said bounce, you gotta pay them now for it. The classified ads that come in to you, that you post, the job postings. What trends are you seeing in terms of what radio companies are looking for? Doesn't matter if they're big or small. What do you- what do you see? John Mielke  44:15 The demand for newspeople really stands out to me. And that's the thing I hear from employers all the time is they're just not getting enough applicants for news. Whether it's not enough people interested in doing news or what, but that's- that's the biggest frustration. That's the biggest trend right now. And that's what I have the most job postings up there for news that is in demand. Conversely, I'll have a conversation with a radio station. I'll say, Well, okay, you're in a difficult spot. You need somebody yesterday, you're in a remote location, you can't pay somebody a wage that you know is probably going to allow them to do this and do this only they're going to have to take another job. Are you open to Who? Then working from home? Oh, no, nope, they've got to be here. Do they? In 2024? Do they have to be there? I understand you want them to go to the city council meeting, and that's all well and good, et cetera. But can they not source that online and still report on it? I'd be looking at that option. If I was really stuck for newscasters right now, I would really be looking at the freelance option. But that's the biggest trend is the need for news right now. Matt Cundill  45:25 Are you optimistic about radio? Because you mentioned that there are a lot of people who are buying radio stations, we talked about Vista. He talked about Pole, who had a big launch earlier this year, actually a year ago with the radio station. John Mielke  45:39 Also the first Canadian to own an American radio licence. Matt Cundill  45:42 Yes. John Mielke  45:43 Which is pretty freakin cool. Matt Cundill  45:44 We see maritime broadcast, they're expanding. That's exciting stuff for them. I mean, when you look at all that, there's got to be some reason here to be optimistic about the future, because they're all good people. John Mielke  45:56 They really are. Yeah, they really are. I've got great relationships with all of them. I've met with Robert Pace and his team. On occasion, when I'm down east, I've got a cottage there. I've got my wife's family's down there. So I've always got an opportunity to drop in on MBs. And I have and for a long time, VISTA got great relationships with a lot of the hierarchy there. And they're a good sponsor of ours as well. John Paul, and I met years ago, Algonquin. I'm a big fan of what he's doing. Yes, I'm incredibly optimistic about radio. Initially, when the announcement came down, you know, you see the headline, bail, gets rid of 45 stations gets rid of more people. And it just it sparks, you know, that fuse again, and you get angry and you get frustrated, you know, like, this is this thing that, hey, love, just got beat up again. You know, and it just keeps happening over and over. But once in you were one of those people that sort of say, Hold on a second, look, look beyond the headline. Look what's really happening here, people stepped up and said, I do value this. And I've got a plan for this is going to be staffed around the clock, like radio used to be with an overnight show and a live evening show, et cetera, probably not. But I look at who has purchased these and I look at their track record and I listen to the other things they're doing. I posted this on on milkman several months ago, I just happened to be scanning the dial in my truck heading back from the west end of the city. And I happen to catch the oldies station that my FM owns. Out of Arnprior. I couldn't stop listening to this radio station. It the music was like nobody's playing this stuff. I knew every single song, the imaging was tighter than a fart in church. The jingle package was spot on the announcers were short, sweet to the point they knew the music. It was like, What is this? And I haven't had that happen to me a long time? Well, that's their only station and they're doing that oldies format and other markets as well. So, yeah, once they peel back the layers on this, I have to be optimistic that there are people out there who see a future in radio who want to do something with it. They've looked at these specific properties. And they've said, let's give this a solid run. So yeah, I am. I'm optimistic. Matt Cundill  48:10 So if the headline that day wasn't, "Radio no longer a viable business." What if someone, or what if the quote that day had been, "We're gonna give these radio stations the best chance and the best opportunity to succeed, and we want communities to have vibrant radio stations"? Bell just doesn't have it in their DNA to say that, but if they did, wouldn't we look at that as being a great day for radio? Just change the one quote from that day. John Mielke  48:42 I mean, that's all I want. You know what I want? I want radio to get back to celebrating radio. Listen, when they hired Tarzan Dan, back to that. I didn't get a press release. I didn't get an email from Bell. I had to see that on Tarzan Dan's page. Why is radio not moving heaven and earth to make sure that people who celebrate and promote the shit outta radio are fed as much information as they can about ra- it's an afterthought. Oh, it's on our Twitter. It's on our corporate page. Well, no, like feed- feed the beasts here, you know, and I'm not- I'm not trying to pick on Bell. They're not the only ones guilty of this. It just doesn't happen in radio industry or the TV industry anymore. We're not celebrating what we do. We're not- We're not patting ourselves on the back. We're not championing the industry. We're letting- you know. It's on Facebook. It's on Twitter. Everything's fine. You know, the word is out there. Matt Cundill  49:39 Oh, I remember we would do something good. And I said, did- did you get a press release out? And did you send it to Milkman? John Mielke  49:45 I can probably count on two hands the number of press releases I got in all of 2023. Isn't that a sad commentary? Matt Cundill  49:52 It's bizarre. John Mielke  49:53 Matt, I mean, we're recording this on Wednesday. And I sit here every single day, you know, when Milkman gets quiet and that- that happenes sometimes, there's no job postings, whatever else, you know, they will come back. But you're telling me that in the past five days, I haven't had anything to update on Milkman because an entire industry has done nothing noteworthy for a week? There's gotta be something. There's got to be a great show that connected with an audience. There's got to be a fundraiser that happened. There's got to be something. Matt Cundill  50:24 A ribbon cutting. John Mielke  50:26 It's crickets, man, it's crickets. We got to change that. Matt Cundill  50:30 I'm gonna send you a press release in two weeks, you can have it exclusively. For 24 hours, I'll let you have an exclusive. John Mielke  50:37 Okay. Matt Cundill  50:38 How about that? John Mielke  50:39 You can't tease me like that and not give me a hint as to what that might be about. Matt Cundill  50:42 Two weeks. John Mielke  50:44 He's got two weeks to figure it out. Okay. Matt Cundill  50:46 It's two weeks, man. Give me two- give me- I'll invent something. I mean, this- this- it's ratings. Let's come up with something, right? Let's invent something. John Mielke  50:55 NewCap were the experts at that. How many press releases were we getting when NewCap had their fugitive on the loose? Matt Cundill  51:02 That's right. John Mielke  51:02 You know, and on and on and on. And those- you know, those great little things that just, you know, we- listen, we were Cool FM in Ottawa, we- we were the big, top 40 station in town, we were up against Energy 1200, the mission, of course, was you know, it's AM, doesn't sound as good. Matt Cundill  51:18 Put that old pet to sleep. John Mielke  51:21 And then along came HOT 89.9. And I mean, they were in our face all the time. And I- you know, listen, when- when you see that coming at you, you're overwhelmed by it. But the radio fan in you also goes, oh, hell yeah. Oh, this is great. What happened to that? What happened? Matt Cundill  51:39 Well, I think I know. John Mielke  51:41 Okay. Matt Cundill  51:41 Well, we- were going to put out a press release, we're going to need to run that by the number of people. John Mielke  51:46 Alright. Matt Cundill  51:47 And by the time it comes back, it's already passed and happened. It's over. It's like, it's old. Like, there's- it's too difficult to get stuff into the moment because you got to run it by HR, and then you got to run it by legal, and then you gotta get approval, and we're gonna need some changes. And- John Mielke  52:04 Well, and you know what? I know you're kind of kidding. But I also know you well enough to know that you're not, that's kind of the process now, isn't it? Matt Cundill  52:10 But that's what happened many times. It was like, by the time it came back. I'm like- John Mielke  52:14 In that chain of command, it just- it just falls on deaf ears. It just- it doesn't matter enough to one person in the food chain. And it just goes nowhere. It's sad. Matt Cundill  52:24 Billy in legal was sick. But they came back a week later and have now approved this. I go, we're done. It's over. We're not doing this anymore. John Mielke  52:33 I love that Billy. Billy works in legal. Matt Cundill  52:36 Billy in legal. That's right. William. You mean William. John Mielke  52:40 Oh, that's better. Matt Cundill  52:41 Yeah. Hey, you're still a CFL fan. You like the Red Blacks Do you think the CFL's got their act together? John Mielke  52:46 Ugh, I have a love hate relationship with my Red Blacks. But yes. Matt Cundill  52:50 Does the CFL have their act together yet with social media? John Mielke  52:53 No. Matt Cundill  52:53 Okay, I know. Alright. Why did I ask you a question I knew the answer to? John Mielke  52:57 Did you see what Saskatchewan did? Matt Cundill  52:59 Did they- whatever they did, they probably did it on dial up. John Mielke  53:02 They sent an email to their season ticket base about a day ago. And some video campaign. I'm still trying to get my eyeballs on this thing. It's been removed from the interwebs. But girl math, that's the big sales pitch to try and get to a new base of fans. You know, the female audience, girl math, and apparently- I haven't seen it but from everything I read, it was just this condescending, you know, macho- They're taking a lot of heat for it. Do you go to a lot of Winnipeg games? Matt Cundill  53:36 I don't, but I love the team, and I watch. John Mielke  53:40 What's not to love? You got a great team going there. Matt Cundill  53:42 You know what, for years they were not good. And now they are the model franchise. I love it. But I'm still an Alouettes fan. John Mielke  53:53 That's right, eh? That's- that's- Matt Cundill  53:54 I had to sit in a corner to watch the game. This year. I had to sit in the back corner by myself and cheer the Al's on, you know, in a room full of Bomber fans. John Mielke  54:03 I haven't been to another CFL city for some time. But when I go to RedBlacks games, and I was a season ticket holder for a long time, you know we've got this refurbished stadium, etc. and they want to knock down the Northside stands now and rebuild it and it's just- it's not entertaining, the value for the dollar is just not there. I mean there's no halftime show, the audio- it's not that the audio system itself is bad. But the audio that they're playing, the songs they're playing, etc. all seem to be recorded to different levels, and they're distorted, and it's just like they don't even make popcorn at the stadium anymore. Like the smell of popcorn doesn't exist, and it just- for me the whole experience of the CFL falls flat. I find the broadcast is- you know, and it's unfair, I know, to do this to the CFL. But when you- like it or not, you're in the football business. You're up against the NFL. Go back to- you know, you're not even trying, radio. Well the CFL broadcasts asked me are very laid back. I've often joked about, it kind of sounds like golf, when I'm watching CFL broadcasts. I'd like the excitement level up a little bit. I still support the CFL, I go to games when I can listen, you say that the Winnipeg Blue Bombers weren't good for a lot of years. Try being an Ottawa Rough Rider fan through the Glieberman years and Horn Chin, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And then the Renegades days. It was painful, but I'm glad the team is back. I don't- I don't see them making any moves. Again, there's just- there's no excitement in the city. You just don't hear anything. And again, they've got that relationship where it seems that all of their eggs are in one basket. They're- they're advertising, as far as I can tell, exclusively on TSN 1200. Well, if I'm a sports nut, I'm probably already aware of when the games are. There doesn't seem to be too much effort to get out there to the fans that may not necessarily know, but are looking for a thing to do with the kids for the weekend. Missed opportunities again. Matt Cundill  56:00 I have lost track over what stations still exist. Do you still have an Ottawa sports station at 1200? John Mielke  56:06 CSN 1200 and CFRA. Both Bell Media stations, they are the only AM stations left in Ottawa, and you gotta figure Bell Media as a business has to be taking a look at those news, as we've already discussed, and CFRA is a news talk station, that's an expensive thing to run. Matt Cundill  56:23 This is the CRTC who should have fixed that. They should be allowing stations on FM. I don't need 15 stations playing music at me. Just put some- put some news on FM. John Mielke  56:23 So my question to you, maybe you know more about this than I do? Because I know CFRA and TSN 1200 are both available on HD through Pure Country and through- I still call it Magic but through MOVE. Can they exist as just an HD station? Or do they need to maintain that AM transmitter? Matt Cundill  56:51 I don't know. But can we just put this thing on FM? John Mielke  56:54 Or that. Well, there's not a lot of- I don't think there's a lot of room in Ottawa on the FM band, they would be a very low power radio station if they were on FM. Because Rebel had that- that problem too, when they first launched, they had to trade frequencies with a university station on the Quebec side in order to up their power. So Camp Fortune is where the big transmitter is, most stations- the earlier stations anyway, they're 100,000 Watts beaming off the top of Camp Fortune. And they're Blowtorch radio stations that I know you probably heard a little bit when you were in Montreal, even, they would bleed into that market. There's a lot of overlap and crossover there. Stations like LIVE 88.5 that Stingray owns, Rebel, I believe the Christian station, they've had to go to a transmitter to the south end of the city, which would put them lower and I know Rebel for a long time didn't have enough power to even find an audience in office buildings downtown, they changed the frequency, they were able to up their power a little bit. So I don't know that there's frequencies left that they could, you know, have the same opportunity to succeed as they do on AM. Matt Cundill  57:51 I'm not asking Bell to move it, although it would be nice, because that's expensive. I get that. I mean, just looking at that, that's expensive. But if- but if I wanted to start up a news station or a talk station, even, what if I just want to have a talk station? I'm not even allowed to do it. And we know Corus already has a hankering for moving some of those legendary AM stations over to FM, they've tried it. So just let them. John Mielke  58:13 Well, and to Corus's credit, I know that they haven't had permission to move the talk stations to FM, but they're doing it. I view it as kind of a- oh, yeah. Tell me I can't. Go ahead. Let's have that public war. Matt Cundill  58:28 Yeah. John Mielke  58:29 Like in order for my business to survive, I have to make this move. You say, I can't. I'm saying it's time you, you know, revisit that. I applaud that. If the CRTC is not going to listen, okay, you got to do what you got to do to save your business. I would have no problem putting talk on FM, absolutely, in a heartbeat. Ever- everything sho- everything should be FM or digital going forward. Matt Cundill  58:51 Yeah, I don't want to throw the blame at all the radio people because there is an enabler in all this, and that's the CRTC. John Mielke  58:57 You can only work within the rules, right? Matt Cundill  58:59 That's right. What are you looking forward to this summer? John Mielke  59:04 You know what Matt? How long has it been now since I have been on my own? Is this summer nine or summer 10? I want to say this is summer 10 coming up. In every single contract that I have with radio stations to voice shows for them. For the first time in 10 years, I have said, I get two weeks for me. I have not given myself a real vacation for 10 years. So this summer I'm looking forward to being at the cottage in New Brunswick. The BTRV parked outside because my in laws live in the cottage, but walking that beach on the Bay of Fundy with the dog and my wife and just, you know, getting caught up and just doing some of the other things that John actually is, you know? Picking up the camera again and- and doing, you know, photography, I love nature and landscape photography. You know, travelling, you know, I've been going to the east coast of this country for 30 years, every summer. I've never been to PEI. Matt Cundill  1:00:08 What? John Mielke  1:00:09 I know. I've not been to Cape Breton. Matt Cundill  1:00:12 What? Okay, wait a second. John Mielke  1:00:14 They're right there. I know, I've been to the bridge. I have been on the New Brunswick side of the bridge. I didn't go over. I know it's wrong. And so I want to start doing some of those things, especially now that the BTRV is for the radio station, but we take it with us. So I've got- you know, I've got a thing with me that really allows me to go anywhere. Why aren't I? Well, I'm gonna start doing that kind of stuff. 55 changes you too, you start looking at things a little bit differently. You know, your bucket list starts getting a little more real, you know, stuff I gotta do, so- and I'm just- I'm just looking forward to paying myself. Finally. Matt Cundill  1:00:14 The end of this show sounds like a London Life ad for Freedom 55. How did this happen? John Mielke  1:00:54 There is no freedom at 55 I'm here to tell you, I'll be working, loving what I do till the day I die, Matt Cundill. Matt Cundill  1:01:00 You know what, me too. Me too. John Mielke  1:01:03 It's passion. And that's- that's- again, that's what's lost on a lot of people I think, who have been in this business sometimes, is this is- this is passion. Look, Lowell Green. I had Lowell Green on well into his 80s. Why did he want to do it? As he just doesn't have any- He just- He doesn't want to sit around the house and do nothing. We're a passion business. And ain't it great? Mostly? Matt Cundill  1:01:28 It is. Thanks for doing this. I appreciate it, man. I appreciate you. And I appreciate all the things you do for Canadian radio. John Mielke  1:01:35 Likewise, Matt, I'm a big fan of what you do. Rest assured, I know we don't necessarily talk all the time. But you've always been very good to me. Always very candid with me and I am watching what you're doing. I really have great appreciation for a lot of the interviews I've seen, especially lately. Terry Dimonte. I got a great Terry DeMonte story I'll share with you one day. Ted, gosh, the list just goes on and on and on and on. You know, great little things like that that are reminders, and just so you know, this is the influence you're having on me. So I'm doing what seven shows a day? For radio stations? Little things like the conversation you had with Erin Davis, where she talked about- where you and she talked about sitting down with Valerie. And very quickly, Valerie heard one of your breaks and said that's great. But how can we make this more impactful? And just taking the time to rewrite and restructure. And you reminded me of one of the things I used to teach when I was at Algonquin College filling in for a couple of semesters. The most powerful word we can use and radio is "you." And this is what I found ever since hearing that conversation with Erin, and thank you for it. It reminded me that I need to get back to- especially in a voice track capacity, where it can feel very disjointed and not connected if you're not in that community, but if you just restructure the break and say, have you ever? Do you do this? Suddenly you're their buddy again, and it's a simple little thing that I think, you know, radio can be looking at to do, to reconnect with an audience and you brought that to me, and I'm sure to many others, so thank you for what you do for radio. Matt Cundill  1:01:39 Thanks, man. Appreciate you. John Mielke  1:02:40 Go team. Tara Sands (Voiceover)  1:03:07 The Soundoff Podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski. Edited by Chloe Emond-Lane. Social media by Aidan Glassey. Another great creation from the Soundoff Media Company. There's always more at soundoffpodcast.com.

How do you go from being a corporate trainer to being the voice of the whole company? You do what Allan Grego did. Allan is the host of Yes, We Are Open!, the flagship branded podcast of payment-processing giant Moneris. But he wasn't always an audio guy: as mentioned above, Allan spent most of his career as a corporate trainer and avid podcast listener. He shares how his love of podcasts slowly transitioned into a desire to make one of his own, and how he convinced Moneris to give him the mic for their branded podcast. Allan also talks about the shows that inspired him in the first place, and how they helped him develop his skills from amateur to exceptional. He explains the specific demands and challenges of running a branded podcast, and more importantly, the massive amount of positive impact it's had on the company and the community. We get into a bit of tech talk as well, discussing Allan's favourite piece of kit for recording in all the varied locations Yes, We Are Open! takes him to. (Hint: it fits in your pocket, but it's not a phone.) You can sample their latest episode below: To hear the rest of their episodes, check out Yes, We Are Open! on Moneris' website, or wherever you get your podcasts. TRANSCRIPTION: Tara Sands (Voiceover)  00:02 The sound off podcast. The show about, podcast and broadcast, starts now. Matt Cundill  00:13 This week, Allan Grego is on the show. It's a name you've likely not heard of before, unless you've caught one of his two appearances on the Toronto, my podcast. Or if you listen to his podcast called, Yes, We Are Open. It's a branded podcast from Moneris. And I know what you're saying now, what is Moneris? Allan Grego  00:30 So Moneris is Canada's largest payment processor, we process credit card and debit card payments, if you use a card to pay for something at a restaurant or store, there's a really good chance it's a Moneris machine. We also you know, have online ecommerce tools and stuff. But we're the largest. And we're a company that's parented by two Canadian banks Bank of Montreal and Royal Bank of Canada. And we've been doing it for 20 plus years now. Matt Cundill  00:58 In short, Allan's full time job at Moneris is this podcast and all the marketing elements that go around it, plus a few other things that you know, it's also an award winning podcast. That's why we're talking to him today. And now, Allan Grego joins me from Toronto, Ontario. I would like to work backwards with you. Because I think it's interesting to know what you do and to see what you do. But how did you get here? I can see you're a communications person, a marketing person. You've worked in some interesting fields. You primarily though come out come out of marketing, right? Allan Grego  01:34 Corporate training, I spent 20 years doing corporate training, marketing is actually relatively new. I switched careers. When I was 46. Because I was getting burnt out from the corporate training. I was building, you know, online learning CBTs all that stuff. That's what I learned in school. But the podcasting came out of interest. I started I was listening, you know, I listened to Toronto, Mike and from his beginnings, and I was just a big consumer of podcasts right back from you know, when when they were first being called podcasts, listening to Adam Carolla and smodcast. And this American life, and I think the first first one I listened to, that really got me hooked was something called the Lost podcast with Jay and Dan. And it was basically just a podcast about the TV show Lost, which at the time was a huge craze. And you know, if you were a fan of the show, you were always looking for more content. And that's how I found it. And that's kind of the impetus for the Letterkenny podcasts I do now. And it set the framework for that. That was the interest that sparked it. And then when I started working on Moneris, in 2015, I was still doing training, but I was also looking at ways to incorporate podcasting into the training that I was doing. And one of the ways that I found that worked really well was, you know, when you're in a corporate environment, you do those yearly surveys, those yearly employee surveys, they say, Hey, do you feel like right from on a scale from one to 10, that you have you feel like you have opportunity for growth and development in this company? And often that question, they're out of all of them. That's one of the lower rated along with the compensation question, which is always the lowest rated that one, there's kind of low. Yeah, we don't feel like we have a lot of development opportunities. And being from HR and being, you know, on that team, we're always pulling our hair going, we have so many opportunities that no one's ever heard of before. So I started doing a biweekly podcast called The Moneris Minute there that all it was, was just talking about, hey, this is what we're doing. And these are the opportunities that are available to you if you want to take it. And it went, like people loved it. I was writing the script, I was making it not corporate speak. It was irreverent. It was funny. at my own expense. I just kind of made it a little goofy, but it was also internal. So no one like there was no worry about being inappropriate. And well, I mean, there was always worried about it being appropriate. But you know what I mean, in terms of reputational risk, so people loved it, and they listened to it. And that got the right attention. And then our chief sales and marketing officer said, Hey, we're looking at doing podcasts for Moneris external podcasts. And we were wondering if you'd be interested. And that's how I started doing that full time. So I switched careers a couple of years ago. Matt Cundill  04:13 I mean, you were an elearning specialist. At one point, I think we were talking about, you know Wood Gundy? I've had a few friends who've gone through that. And you know, they're, they're doing financial stuff, but here, that's your audience. And you want to be entertaining because you got to sell this stuff. But I read a lot of elearning as voiceover person, and it really pays to be dull. But for you, you've got to get some really thick points across to a corporate audience. How can you do that and have fun at the same time? Allan Grego  04:39 You can't not Wood Gundy. Anyway, now when your audience is a bunch of investment investment advisors, but I felt Moneris gate was a bit of a breath of fresh air culture wise, even though it is still kind of a financial company. It's more of a fin tech company, however, you're on the tech side. And I found the culture there was a little more welcoming to that kind of stuff. Yeah, I wouldn't have been able to do anything like that at Wood Gundy. Matt Cundill  04:59 So what was the moment when you thought, Oh, I'm listening to all these podcasts? How can I get this into my workplace? Allan Grego  05:07 It was early on again, I was given a lot of creative leeway with the work that I was doing, because it's like almost a 20 year veteran, and they brought me in because of some of the creative ideas that they implemented prior. So, you know, one of the nice things Moneris, that they have that whole fail fast kind of mentality was I will try anything. And if it fails, quickly pivot, but if it works great. And so I was always encouraged to try new things. And some of them stuck. Some of them didn't, the podcasting absolutely stuck. And I was able to convince them to take one of our classrooms and turn it into a studio to do full time media production out of because I was doing video production and podcasting. And I needed a permanent room for it. And so they saw the value in what I was doing. So that's what we did. Matt Cundill  05:55 Have you ever considered or maybe you already do this? And that's an internal podcast for a company? Allan Grego  06:00 Well, yeah, I mean, they did it for Moneris. And at the same time, when I was doing it, I was looking at all these other podcasts. I was listening to going, Man, I wish, I wish other people outside, my company could hear all this great stuff I'm doing. So again, I didn't manifest it like it happened. I put myself in the position where when the opportunity was there, I was able to grab it. But um, yeah, I didn't push for it. It was actually our Chief Sales and Marketing Officer who just out of the blue, asked me what I thought about doing mineros podcasts. And I said, Yeah, that sounds great. And at the time, I thought he was asking me because he wanted me to refer him to maybe Toronto, Mike, or somebody I knew, like in the field. I didn't, I had no idea that he was looking at me for the position. Matt Cundill  06:41 You look at the impact of Toronto, Mike. And I know you've appeared on that show a few times. He's a gateway podcast drug for many people. Allan Grego  06:50 Absolutely, I mean, he's been documenting Toronto media history. We're both around the same age. We're friends. I mean, I'm a fan of his podcast, because we're from the same era. So the stuff he talks about the people he interviews are right down my alley, I listen to all the same people on the Fan 590, which is the Toronto sports radio, watch Much Music at around the same time, so I know all the V J's he's interviewed. And what I loved about it is first of all, he's company agnostic. So he's not from Bell, he's not from Rogers. He's his own guy, fiercely independent. So he doesn't kowtow to whatever. And he actually doesn't like going through publicists. He tries to get his interviewees subjects directly. But he's documenting the history of the city of the media landscape of that city, which I love. And I've been feasting off of it since he started. Matt Cundill  07:41 So he has credit for getting you launched into the podcast world on a technical side. I think I've mentioned it a few times, or at least humble and Howard have that, you know, when they didn't have anywhere to go to do radio, because people stopped investing in that sort of thing. I guess that their radio level that you know, Toronto, Mike, here's the equipment. Here's the stuff we'll get you launched. I think now Mike is producing their show on a on a on a full time basis. Allan Grego  07:41 Yeah, I mean, it's again, I've followed that journey from the beginning. Like we were both bloggers reading each other's blogs. And I remember him saying, Hey, I just interviewed humble and Fred, who are heroes of mine from listening to CFNY, you know, back in the day, and he's Oh, hey, humble and Fred want to do this thing called a podcast, like a Christmas podcast. So they did that a couple of times. And then finally, when they not that they were cancelled from radio, but when they weren't being hired anymore, they decided to go on their own. And yes, Mike helped them set all of that up. And it's funny that now he's come full circle to become their producer. Matt Cundill  08:46 I think the kind way to put it is radio ran out of money to properly compensate humble and Fred. Allan Grego  08:52 Probably Yeah, I mean, and I'm a huge radio fan, as a listener, obviously. But we know, like, those personalities are few and far between on radio anymore, and actually don't seem welcome anymore on radio. It's just too bad. Because, you know, we're missing that. And that's one of the reasons I think that people are turning away from radio because why would you're just listening to simulcasts from somewhere else. Right. You're not listening to local. I love all the talk you do with radio personalities and, and being hyperlocal. Because I think that's, that's what would save radio. Matt Cundill  09:25 There's enough radio stations to accommodate all sorts of people. But everybody loves 25 to 54 and playing the same records. Allan Grego  09:33 Yeah. And I mean, you know, I listened to theater of the mind and listen to the Sunday night funnies. Most of the stuff that I remember listening to I mean, I also listened to top 40 For sure. But was that kind of other programming. His ongoing history of music like that extra programming is what made radio so good, but now you can find it just as good if not better in podcast form. Matt Cundill  09:56 So you're a music guy to play in a band you love music you're familiar with the Toronto scene, it's you know, your experience with music is more than just, you know Much Music. What were some of the bands that you grew up in and listen to? Allan Grego  10:11 Again just like Toronto Mike as a big con can guys so growing up I listened to all the you know, I Mother Earth, Our Lady Peace, I was a big grunge guy though 90s music my co host on on the Produce Stand would bristle at that because he was more of a hair metal guy and loves Extreme and those those bands that were replaced by grunge in the early 90s. But that's my wheelhouse. That's what my cover band covers. I love doing that. I mean, I like music of all kind, maybe the exception of country. But yeah, my background is music. I went to Trebis Institute, I originally wanted to be an audio engineer or music producer. That's what I learned as a trade audio engineering being in a studio that that was my dream to be in a recording studio. Now. The recording studio is my desk here. So it's not quite the same environment, but still enjoy it. Matt Cundill  10:59 But you've come in very well equipped to do podcast if you went to Trebis Institute. Allan Grego  11:03 So at the time, we're talking mid to late 90s 95/96, I think is when I went. So that was just the end, I still learn how to how to splice two inch tape with a razor blade. And then I think the last year we were there, we started recording these things, burning CDs. And one out of 10 was a dud, right. Like I was in between there. We learned Foley and sound for movies, using both analog and then digital means at the time cuz sampling was still really early. So yeah, that was a lot of fun. But unfortunately, coming out of that second year of music production out of Trebis, I, you know, I started reading the writing on the wall, I'm like, Well, I'm not going to be able to make a living out of this. So they were offering this other program called Multimedia computing. So I took that, and that's where I learned CD authoring and HTML and a little bit of graphic design, a little bit of video editing a little bit of everything. So the new media that was called back then, which kind of set me up for this career in elearning. Matt Cundill  12:08 What was your first podcast that you put together and put into an RSS feed? Allan Grego  12:13 Oh, probably the first episode of Yes, We Are Open. Yeah. So up until then, I was doing a lot of internal podcasts. But technically, they weren't podcasts because they weren't being distributed via RSS. So back in 2017, I was recording these little audio vignettes. And they were just being thrown up on the internal company intranet, right. But yeah, the first actual podcasts I would have done would have been, Yes We Are Open for Moneris. And then during the pandemic, I started my home that Letterkenny podcasts that we do The Produce Stand. Matt Cundill  12:45 So here's the thing, I've always thought about an internal podcast, do you know who has listened to it? And how much of the show they have digested? And does that somehow get recorded somewhere in the chain? Allan Grego  12:56 Yeah, we had a like an internal thing of SharePoint. But SharePoint would tell you how often a file was dead. So the stats for SharePoint are no better or worse than current stats for podcasts in terms of I knew how many times it was downloaded, and liked. And so there's quite a bit of engagement with those. And I would even get, you know, emails and texts through the company chat going on. I love that, especially during the pandemic when I was recording them at home. And I was using my kids in places because normally I'd be interviewing coworkers and they weren't available. So I just had my kids here. And I was interviewing them. And a lot of people were emailing me and thanking me because they were you know, everyone was feeling so isolated, and they just needed a good laugh or whatever in the middle of their hectic day. Matt Cundill  13:42 Tell me about the pandemic. Were you set up at home at that time? Or did you have to make changes? Or were you just ready for what came? Allan Grego  13:51 I was not I mean, we were in a house. I mean, a little, you know, 45 year old bungalow, we had just started renovations on the upstairs. So there was four of us, my wife and two kids living schooling and working out of our basement apartment. It wasn't fun, it was a bit of a nightmare. I wasn't set up to work from home and at the time, you know, the company wasn't really didn't really embrace that too much. So the one positive that came out of the pandemic is my ability to work from home now and which saves me three hours a day and commute time I don't go into the office unless I have to. The argument is that I could come into the office but don't do any work. My studio is at home so I'd only be coming in to socialize, which is fine to do every once in a while but I love the setup I have at home and the freedom I have to do my work from home. Matt Cundill  14:38 Tell me a little bit about your editing process when you first started we'll talk about today in a sec. But when you first started, what were you using to edit and edit get the audio together? Allan Grego  14:48 Well, I mean originally it first we were using Audacity to record and edit, you know, stereo channel recordings. Then when I started doing the actual podcast for Moneris site, I was a Let's start using Audacity. So using that for all the multi tracking and adding music and creating the stories that I do for that for those podcasts, I mean coming from, you know, like I said, originally, I learned how to splice tape. So to me editing was always a manual process and a time consuming process that I held on to way longer than I wanted to. I mean, I hate it, it's my least favorite thing to do with podcast production is editing, especially, you know, getting rid of arms and ahhs and doing all that kind of fun stuff, right. But I held on to it wait too long. Up until recently, we talked about, you know, in the pre show, I discovered Descript in December, and I haven't looked back, it's changed my life in terms of it's taken away the most tedious part of what I do, and made it much, much easier. So I appreciate that. The produce and I do live to pod. I learned that from Toronto Mike. And I love that because again, I'm I'm a radio fan. So to me recording an episode of the Produce Stand is kind of like doing a little radio show, I do everything, I have a soundboard, I do everything live, nothing gets edited. And then it gets put out 10 minutes after we've finished recording. And I love the energy that comes from that. And sometimes the happy accidents that you know, we can just laugh at ourselves, because none of us are professionals here. Matt Cundill  16:15 Yeah, they say anything you can record you can make better, I understand that. But I do totally get what you're saying about. It's live, we want to be live, we want it to sound live. And it's just good communication skills practice, you know, especially you you've got to, there were times when you had to stand up in front of people to communicate with them. And you can't make edits when you're live in front of people. Allan Grego  16:40 No, and I mean, it's still something I'm working on. I mean, you know, I don't come from a radio background. So I had to work on it as well. Like, when I started Moneris, there was a Toastmasters club in the company. So every Wednesday I'd go to do that, which helped me a lot, not just in podcasting, so I wasn't even doing that yet. But even just by stage banter with my band, I was horrible between songs, you know, talking to the audience, and then you know, doing a little bit of Toastmasters really helped me with that I I strongly feel like Toastmasters should be something that should be available like in high schools. I really think it's that that important skill and muscle to develop early. Matt Cundill  17:19 Okay, so I've heard about this a number of times. What is Toastmasters? Do they teach you to talk do they teach us speak in front of people. Allan Grego  17:28 Teach is a strong word. It's kind of like a support group for people who just want to get better at speaking on their feet. And there's different kinds of tracks you can take to whichever way you want to go. So if you want to just be better at speaking off the cuff, you know, each meeting, you might get up and talk for two minutes on a subject that like is written on a piece of paper, and you just have to be able to do that. And then you'll have people who are sitting there and they're writing down all your filler words and they're keeping tally. So that the end of it, they'll be like alright, oh, that was a great two and a half minute speech on yo-yos do you use 30 filler words in those two and a half minutes. And these are your most common words like stuff like that, and it gets in your head, and you get better at it. It's just through practice, right? Everything happens through practice. And so I went into Toastmasters. I only ever did one of the speeches like I didn't even go through the entire program. But it got me to a point where because I was fine being on stage in front of people when I was prepared. When I was rehearsed as a musician. I just wasn't comfortable with the off the cuff stuff. And that's what Toastmasters helped me with a lot of the people in that group and people that I've seen before who credit Toastmasters, like everyone gets something different from it, but I really love and again, I hear my my son and his buddies talk. I'm like, man, you guys can use Toastmasters. Oh brah, brah, oh my god. When I hear my 16 year old son call my my wife brah. Like, that's ma you. Matt Cundill  18:59 You're very humble. By the way. I do know that you came to my attention a couple of years ago. Because Yes, We Are Open was a winner of a Canadian Podcast Award for outstanding business series. You beat some good ones to in there. So for anybody who would just come up and ask you because they're thinking of starting a podcast? How do you get a show like that to that level? Over a period of time? And the period of time is, you know, a few years, obviously. But how do you get to that level where you're getting awards? Allan Grego  19:31 The award was a shock. I feel like I had a bit of an unfair advantage in terms of you know, I had the audio background already. And such a huge consumer of other podcasts that I already knew what I wanted to do, even if I didn't know how I was going to do it yet. It all came naturally to me. Fortunately for me, but for somebody else who might want to start right now. Yeah, you basically have to be a consumer of lots of these kinds of podcasts like I go on the road with my Zoom digital recorder which I usually have If you're handy, that's how I recorded my field interviews. I bring them in, I'd listen to that I had no plan. I had no script, I would just listen to the interviews and then piece together the stories as that but I'd be like, how would Ira Glass do this on This American Life? Or Adam, I forget his name on Planet Money. Like, those are the podcasts I was listening to. And I was kind of modeling myself after the guys from Reply All like, how do you tell a story with these interviews, and be you know, with as little interstitial narration as possible, like try to tell the complete story with just the interviews, right? And using the surrounding sounds, recording my flight on the plane recording, if I'm in a brewery recording all the sound in the background, right? Like, it's all stuff that no one told me, that's what I had to do. But because I listened to so many podcasts that I felt, I got to do that I have to capture all this because some of this I'm going to use later on the story. Matt Cundill  20:55 That's so important. You mentioned Ira Glass, Adam Davidson, you know, there's a lot of NPR in there who are leaders in this space, public radio does a lot. But I see so many radio people who come over into podcasting. And the next thing you know, it's a big banging loud 10 in a row kind of imaging. And I know because if you listen to episodes, one, two, and three through 20, or something like that, it's it was like that was all that we knew how to produce. And that's what we did. But then once I started to listen, for me, specifically, some stuff out of Panoply podcasts, like Why Oh Why some stuff out of Slate, Death, Sex and Money, just stuff like that, that, you know, the audio need really needs to be soothing into the ear more than anything. Allan Grego  21:38 Yeah, and I don't think I went into producing any of these with any of those rules in mind. Right? Again, it was just a lot of listening, a lot of probably just mimicking, trying to mimic. But then after a while, you develop, I guess, a voice of your own. So it didn't take long for me to include a little bit of my own irreverence in poking fun at myself when something silly happens on the road, right? And people would respond to that, which, which I loved. And, you know, every once in a while be like, Man, I wish I had a video camera following me. But that also forced me to be more descriptive when I'm there. To tell the story later, right. I have been learning as I've been going, and I'm by no means perfect at anything. Again, the award was was amazing and unexpected. But you know, we got to keep it going now. Matt Cundill  22:23 Well, the people that Quill they make branded podcasts, and I think he got nominated for a few awards there. Allan Grego  22:29 Yeah, we did. And I know Fatima very well. She was actually, when when I moved over to the marketing team here at Moneris. They said, Hey, if you want to take any training whatsoever, feel free. So I wrote enrolled on in a podcasting course at U of T. Fatima taught, so I got to know her really well. And she had some great insight. And I'd like to think I was just star pupil for that. But that term, but um, yeah, it was a lot of fun and really helpful. Matt Cundill  22:53 We did an episode with her. I heard it. Yeah. And the biggest takeaways, like, please do not record your podcast on Zoom. Right? Zoom. So many people still do it. And Allan Grego  23:03 I'm one, I'm one. Do you really I do. There's one thing, they've changed that I think when people were saying that before, hadn't changed, and there's like a setting with the gated noise that you can turn off. That makes it a little bit more palatable in terms of crosstalk and, and playing music, and all that stuff while people are talking over it. It makes it a little bit better. But I mean, Zoom is just ubiquitous. It's just easier to set somebody up specially like we have a lot of guests on who they're not used to these platforms and stuff. So it's just easier to send them a zoom link, and they join that way, because they're probably already used to doing that with work. Right? Matt Cundill  23:41 You went to Trebis Institute, like you can squeeze that sound out and make it sound great. Allan Grego  23:47 Yeah. But I mean, I do see the benefits of some of these other platforms. I just zoom because I use it for work. And it's just sometimes it's just easier. Matt Cundill  23:55 Okay, so now I'm going to transition from zoom, to zoom, the zoom h5, because you mentioned that's the machine that you take on the road. I wish I had mine beside me. It's actually upstairs and I've just been using it. It's a great tool. It's my favorite one. It retails in Canada for about 369. And that's a zoom h5, I believe you have? Allan Grego  24:14 Yeah,  yeah, so cheap. And it's a four channel, the onboard mics are better than anything you could probably get of that size. And then you can plug into other XLR below it so you can record a full, you can record a full band with it if you wanted to in a in a room and have amazing sound quality. In fact, it's too sensitive sometimes, like, I'll be on the road and I'll be recording like interviews in a noisy area. But in my headphones and think ah, that'll be fine. I'll be able to and then when I get home and listen to it. Oh my god, what was I thinking because it's just picking up too much of the surroundings noise. I mean, I could switch the stereo mics out for one of those more directional mics and that might help me out a lot and maybe I should do that. It's one of those things where When you have to ask money from your boss to buy those other components, you just kind of make do with what you have. Matt Cundill  25:06 I'm uncomfortable using that microphone to record a full interview, I would just say if you and I would be anywhere, I just say, I can't wait for us to go home to our studios to record a very clean conversation. So what are some of the tricks you do to get great conversation when you're on the road? For instance, I just came back from from an assignment where I had to, I just want to capture some of the sounds of a travel podcast in a restaurant. Well, there's a lot of music on somebody had online order on the TV, and I'm like, this isn't gonna sound great. Allan Grego  25:39 No, you're right. And you do have to pick the best environment first, right? And this is in sometimes so can we is there an office that we can go into or let's go outside, maybe even if it's if it's too loud, or echoey in the bar restaurant, where you are a couple of things, obviously, I have a wind sock that I put on for sociaux door recordings. That Matt Cundill  26:01 Is that when soccer a dead cat? Allan Grego  26:03 It's one of these big foamy things that go on the end, have a tripod as much as I can. I don't like going handheld because there's always noise. Also, one drawback from that Zoom unit, because it's a little older, there's no Bluetooth. So if you want a monitor, you got to be plugged in directly via cable. And some of the noise that comes from handling that sometimes can translate you don't want that right. So I like having a little tripod, wherever I can wherever possible. And then yeah, just get it as close to them as possible and monitor monitor monitor just have like headphones on so you can hear what's going in and make adjustments as you go. Some, you know, there's been times where I've not done that and regretted it big time later. Matt Cundill  26:47 Those microphones are very sensitive. So I've always picked up a lot of plosives. Allan Grego  26:51 Well, what's the SOC that fixes that? Right? So that completely gets rid of that? I mean, the mics I use here, you know, this is my stage mic. It's an SM 58. With a sock on it. You don't get any me right. So it's fine. Matt Cundill  27:02 So I use these zoom h5 For a lot of background recording sounds of a motorcycle transition sounds just ambiance in a restaurant. The airplane is a great one, you know when the planes about to take off? Allan Grego  27:16 Now many conversation has been started from somebody just going What do you do? Like wandering is a strange guy with a device. He's turning on specifically for takeoff and landing. Why and then, and then I have to start off because I'm just recording background sound from my podcast. And I'm be like, I'm trying to get the captain saying, you know, this is the flight to Winnipeg flight cert, whatever to Winnipeg, because I want to get that so I can use it in my story, right? And often I have to shush people. Wait, wait, it's coming. Matt Cundill  27:46 It looks like a taser too. Allan Grego  27:48 Right? Yeah, there's so many things that people probably are going through their head until they you know until it. So sometimes I'll say it's just a microphone before we take off so that to put them at ease. Matt Cundill  27:59 Is there ever an opportunity where I should plug in an XLR mic in the bottom and just go back and forth with a handheld? Maybe? Allan Grego  28:06 It's funny. So for Yes, We Are Open. And this was kind of a style choice that I made. I never bring another mic. So the interviews that I do, I'm in the distance, I always have the mic held up my subject, I'm not going back and forth. So I mean, I do that on purpose, because I don't want to be the story. I want them to be the story. So I want it to feel like that. Right? Whereas if I'm asking the question and then putting the mic in their face, there's there's a bit of delay between that. But there's also like it, I'm not important in this, I want to capture what they're saying, as with as much fidelity as possible. And then because later on when I add it, oftentimes I cut out my question altogether, because it makes more sense for them to just keep talking. Right? So but there was one time where I did do that. And that was more for I was in Montreal, I was recording an interview with this is from my Letterkenny podcast recording with one of the writers. And in that case, I do want to be part of that con, I want it to be a conversation. So that time I did have a microphone plugged into the back of it so that we both had high quality audio throughout the whole thing. Tara Sands (Voiceover)  29:12 transcription of the sound off podcast is powered by the You May Also Like Podcast, the show about people places and things. Follow the show on your favorite podcast app, or at Youmayalsolike.net Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  29:27 This podcast supports podcasting 2.0. So feel free to send us a boost. If you're listening on a new podcast app, find your new app now at podcastingtwopoint.org/apps. That's podcasting. podcastingtwopoint.org/apps. Matt Cundill  29:42 So you mentioned one of your gateway podcast drugs was Lost... Allan Grego  29:48 Yes. Matt Cundill  29:48 Because you love the TV show. And then did you fall in love with Letterkenny and say I got to do a podcast about this. Allan Grego  29:54 Well, it's funny. So Toronto, Mike was doing the podcast I want to do podcast but what are we going to do it on? I'm a musician could I do music, but there's so many of them. And I'm not an expert enough to think that I can offer up anything new that better musicians couldn't already offer up. I was struggling with subject matter. And during the pandemic seemed a great time to start a podcast because there was nothing else to do. I didn't I couldn't play with my band, because there were no venues open. So I was like, Well, what are we going to do? And somebody introduced me to Letterkenny. So really, it wasn't so much that I'm a huge fan of the show is more like we just needed subject matter to focus our discussion on. Why not this show? Because I looked around like, Oh, they're in a lot of podcasts that cover this, so why not? So I just didn't want to start a podcast where it's just, you know, for people talking about stuff, and there's no focus to it. So I wanted to give it a focus. And that's why we went with the TV show. Plus, I really enjoyed the last podcast, and I liked that kind of setup. You know what I mean, that theme? Matt Cundill  30:52 We're really interested in this next question, because I know that your current title is, you know, emerging channels communication manager. Allan Grego  30:52 Yeah. Matt Cundill  30:54 Which is that sums up exactly what podcast is. So did you have to sort of give direction to Moneris? And say, this is where communications and social is going? And podcasting as well? Or did they sort of present this to you that this is what you're going to be overseeing? And then I'm going to dovetail that into a question about video and just a sec. Allan Grego  31:22 They basically said, You're the expert, come to us with a strategy. So I had to, you know, I spent a few weeks putting together a strategy. And when I came back, I said, I think we should do two shows. And these are the two shows I think we should do. The Yes, We Are Open a basically kind of lifted the whole idea from a CBC show called still standing. And if you're familiar with it, it's Johnny Harris, he travels the country visit small down and out towns tells their story about how they're trying to get themselves out of the economic issues that they are from, you know, a factory closing or a mine closing or whatever. I really liked that format. And I also liked the idea of traveling the country, truth be told, and wasn't sure whether they would go for it, but definitely shoot for the stars and see what happens. So I wanted to do that. And I said, Look, you know our clientele there other businesses, I want to visit these businesses, I want to tell their stories, and talk about their struggles and stuff, especially at that time, it was the pandemic, so there's lots of struggle to talk about. And they went for it, they loved it. So that's that one. So that's kind of the focus on our clients on our customers. The other one called just good business is kind of more of our thought leadership show. It's more of a monthly magazine, where we talked about issues that affect our customers and in the FinTech industry. Right. So those are the two shows that I produce for Moneris. Matt Cundill  32:40 I mean, it's pretty difficult job to have to like go to the Maritimes to a shellfish festival to go and find out exactly what's going on on behalf of the company to bring your microphones and talk about that that's tough. You're doing God's work there. Allan Grego  32:58 Under threat of a hurricane to be fair. That was a lot of fun. And I'm not gonna lie I love doing I'd be an asshole if I'd say I don't like my job. I don't complain about it at all. I love it. Matt Cundill  33:10 Where are some of the great places you've been to aside from of course PEI, where you get to have oysters. Allan Grego  33:15 Yeah, well, so so far this season one I went to Saskatchewan. I hit Saskatoon and Prince Albert, which you know, you think, whatever, but I loved it. It was a great time. And then I went out to Vancouver. Next season. I've also obviously been all around Ontario. I hit Quebec and Montreal, New Brunswick, and was the maritime and Newfoundland provinces. So my next stop, I'm hoping fingers crossed is Calgary. I want to hit every province and territory at least once. So that's my goal. Matt Cundill  33:47 When you think about the North kids you mentioned, you know, Nunavut maybe up to Whitehorse, that sort of thing. Do you have something in mind? Because the culture and electronics and tech and the internet is just so different up there? Allan Grego  34:01 Yeah, I don't know. And I can't wait to find out and to learn more about it. As long as we have customers in those areas and customers who want to tell their story, I will endeavor to get up there, I really want to be inclusive, I want this to be, you know, I don't want this just to be just another show up from Ontario, right? I want to be able to tell other stories and learn about it. So I want the listener to learn while I'm learning. Matt Cundill  34:22 So tell me what you've learned so far about video. What have you told people? And how are you going to approach the video side of podcasting that has emerged and really it's from a marketing side more than anything, but here you are, you're an audio guy, but now you've got to get yourself a camera and maybe you have to learn how to edit some video and maybe you gotta get some YouTube channels. How are you dealing with that? Allan Grego  34:47 Not Well, I mean, I'm showing my age when it comes to that stuff because I'm I'm an audio purist in terms of, again, I was a big radio fan. And so when podcasting is right down my alley. Now, having said that, I I've done all the video editing, I know how to do that I just don't enjoy it. And especially if I have to be in front of the camera, there's, there are many other better looking people that I would put in front of the camera before me. We've talked about, you know, if yesterday were open to grow it that maybe they would send somebody on the road with me, you know, I've started doing like, while I'm out on the road. I'm also my own social media guy where if you follow me on Instagram, I will do little vignettes of myself with people I'm with, you know, there's a vignette of me throwing axe for the first time in New Brunswick. And I hit a bullseye for the first time. And so there's video evidence of that. And I posted that to my IG and my social media person that Moneris she loves me that for that like for providing her with that kind of content. But yeah, you're always having to think what kind of content because what I not interested in is putting up still screens and full podcast episodes like that whole, YouTube can now import your entire pod, I'm not interest, I started doing that. And I cancelled it and reversed it because A, when I found out that that means now you're maintaining two separate files that I didn't, I don't care. That's the beauty of podcasts and you upload a file. If you make a mistake, you upload a different file to replace that file and everything gets aggregated and everything gets what with YouTube, that doesn't happen. Yeah, I'm not interested in that. So my YouTube strategy actually came from an episode of yours that I listened to back, I don't know, I'm gonna say September, October where I forget who you had on. But I liked what he said. It's like, the content you put out on video should be different, in addition to what you put out in audio, and that's what I tried to do. Usually it might just be audio grams, but with video component to like, recordings of whatever meetings or something, or I will throw together a little video montage or something depending on what subject matter is. And I'll put that up and I find that that gets enough traction. Like when I was putting up full episodes. I was getting a handful of listeners. That's it because to me podcasts you don't turn YouTube on to listen to a podcast. Matt Cundill  37:08 How many people do you think are gonna watch this? Allan Grego  37:11 Yeah, exactly.  Probably none. Matt Cundill  37:12 Five maybe... Allan Grego  37:13 Close friends. Yeah. Matt Cundill  37:15 And they have they obviously have a fetish with men with bald heads. Allan Grego  37:18 Exactly. And graying beards, you know. But if you check out the Produce Stand YouTube feed, there are some videos there of extra things like we went out to Sudbury and we toured the Letterkenny sets. And so I put together a video montage of that. And so that's good, because that's something I can't show on the podcast. And then if you want to hear more, or Yeah, listen to more than go subscribe to the podcast. So that's kind of been my strategy for my personal podcast and for work. If they insist on doing video, then I might suggest that somebody else be in front of the camera. Matt Cundill  37:55 What I really like is like how positive you are about the podcast space about what it offers about what you used to do and where it has taken you. I think it's just so positive. And I've had so many people hear about radio, thinking, Oh, I guess I better slide into this podcast thing and sort of catch the catch the train. But it's all upside, even some of the bad news? Well, we're gonna have to do some video. Now you've got some resolve, you know exactly what you want to do and where it's going. So for any company, or anybody who's in your position, had a job like you had or you know, is in communications, even some marketing, why should they consider podcasts and a branded podcast specifically? Allan Grego  37:55 I mean, branded podcasts for companies is an opportunity for that company to show their personality and show it in a way that they can kind of control to write so you can use social media. And that's one way to do it. But the other channel, yeah, podcast is a great channel, because it's also a very well, if you can get the person to listen, they're engaged listeners, it's an engaging channel, right? If you get the right audience, which I mean, if somebody's listening to a podcast, and they're already the right audience, if if somebody is doesn't listen to podcasts, and they stumble on up, you know, Yes, We Are Open, they're probably not going to listen to it. Because they're, that's not what they want to do. But if you engage podcast listeners, and you give them something interesting or educational to listen to, then you might be able to snag them and then they become, you know, yours, and they become yours to entertain, but they learn about your company through the stories you tell. Right. And anecdotally, I hear you know, because of my former ties to HR, I hear a lot of people who, you know, are hired on to the company going oh, yeah, I know, I know all about Moneris because I've listened to some of your podcasts, which is a nice way of, you know, getting people to come in and already feel at home right when they feel like they already know the company they're coming to. Matt Cundill  39:49 What is a new piece of technology aside from Descript, you might be having your eye on or checking out to make your life a little bit better? Allan Grego  39:57 That's a good question because the script is the latest one that I've been playing with and loving. Matt Cundill  40:02 Have you used any of the video tools in there? Allan Grego  40:05 I've done some of the tutorials, some of them freak me out like that whole thing about your eyes always looking at the camera. That's, that's freaks me out. But I probably will start using some of the video tools as well, because I feel like you know, the more pressure I get with putting out more video content, the more I'll probably look at easier and quicker ways to create some video content, right. Matt Cundill  40:28 And with every purchase of Descript, you can also get free access to Squadcast. So does this mean you might be getting a divorce from Zoom? Allan Grego  40:37 Possibly. Late last year, I started looking at some alternatives to zoom, Squadcast was one of them. But before I even heard of descript, there was, you know, stream yard was another one that a colleague of mine uses for his podcasts that I've tried out. The one thing that kept me with Zoom, and again, this goes back to my personal pot that Letterkenny podcast is every once in a while. And I think we had this conversation before but we'll have something called an egg hall social where we'll have our listeners join us in a Zoom call. And we'll have sometimes upwards to almost 30 people on the same call, which I know sounds chaotic to you and it can be which you can't do with any of the other ones Zoom allows you to have that Stream Yard I think their limit is 10 at a time. Matt Cundill  41:19 Stream yard will let you do a webinar now. Allan Grego  41:21 Oh, yeah. Matt Cundill  41:22 So I think that would kind of serve the purpose, but I'm not sure that everybody would be able to see one another. Allan Grego  41:27 Yeah, because webinars still kind of a one way but anyway, it's it's not like if we wanted to do that we could do a one off just with Zoom. So um, so yeah, I am looking at you know, different tools because I'd love to be able to, to get some graphics going on on you know, on our video feed is especially and, and some cooler intros and maybe pre built interstitial elements, right, right now, I still do everything off live off my board. And it's all audio still. Matt Cundill  41:54 So have you played with the AI feature in the script that allows you to substitute your voice on errors? Allan Grego  42:01 I have... Matt Cundill  42:02 What's that like? Allan Grego  42:03 So I gotta say, like, again, I only use it here and there when I wish I said this word instead of that word. And I'll go in and I'll do it and it's just replacing one word. I gotta say, it's, it's great. I'm not gonna lie. I love using it. I would never do it really. I tried doing full sentences just to hear what it would sound like. And it doesn't sound great. Yeah, it's not there yet. And that's fine. I don't think I'd ever do that. Because, I mean, the reason I got into podcasting is because I'm not in radio, but I always wanted to be in radio, and this is the best thing. So why would I replace myself with AI? Matt Cundill  42:36 If you could have been on one radio station in Toronto? What station? Was it? And why was it the Edge? Allan Grego  42:44 It wasn't the Edge though. So I went from 680 CFTR. And then when, when their format changed, I think I went almost directly to sports radio to Fan 590. Like I would every once and I'll pop over to 102.1 But no, it was I went from kind of top 40 to to sports. All sports when all sports opened it was done for me. That's all I listened to. It was. Yeah, I loved it. Matt Cundill  43:11 What year was that? Early? 90s? Allan Grego  43:13 Yeah, early 90s. At least I was probably you know, a pizza boy. You know delivering pizza after school listening to because I remember you know, listening to the first blue jays World Series on 1430 before they switched frequencies at I was already delivering pizzas. So that might have been 92/93. Matt Cundill  43:30 Yes, that was such a great era for sports. And both Montreal and Toronto. Allan Grego  43:34 Oh, man, it Yeah, I miss it. But also thank God, we had all sports radio because everyone was thirsty for more write more content, and they provided it. Matt Cundill  43:44 Do you spend as much time with sports radio these days? Or have you moved on to podcasts? Allan Grego  43:49 In the car everywhere. I just I always have podcasts in my ear. That's all I listen to Matt Cundill  43:53 What sports podcast to listen to? Allan Grego  43:55 You know what? I haven't been on sports podcast too much lately. There's one called Tales with TR. That's Terry Ryan. But because he's an actor on shores. I listened to him since the pandemic kind of got soured a bit on sports. I gotta tell you. It's funny because the Raptors won the championship in 19 On my birthday, and that was kind of the last time I remember caring about sports after that the pandemic happened locked down and they went into the bubbles and and then when it was all done, they didn't really get me back. So I mean, I was I'm a lifelong Leafs fan. What do I have to cheer for right now? The Raptors are in a retooling period. Maybe the Jays they kind of get me excited at the beginning of the season, but then they show their true colors after a while so. Matt Cundill  44:42 I'm just holding on to the NFL, but I have to admit, I have not watched hockey since the Stanley Cup final with the Habs and Tampa Bay. Oh, wow. And even even before then I kind of stopped. I think I wouldn't even be able to name five Habs, right right now... Allan Grego  45:00 Yeah, I'm kind of in the same boat. I mean, I can name three Leafs. But that's just because they're all over the news. And but other than that, yeah, because I've been filling my time with other things, and mostly podcast related stuff. The band is back. So we're playing again, haven't really needed sports so... Matt Cundill  45:15 I wonder if that's a symptom of work from home. Allan Grego  45:18 Might be Matt Cundill  45:19 NRH. Allan Grego  45:20 Yeah. And again, sports radio used to be my I had never my car was always on. You know, Bob McAllen. And now, I don't care enough to listen. Matt Cundill  45:31 What app do you listen to podcasts on? Allan Grego  45:33 Pocket Casts. Well, I used to listen on one called Beyond pod. But something went screwy with their interface and it got all messed up. And I stopped without and and then I put out a request, what's everyone using? And what should I use? And I think, again, he was trying to make us that I think I use Pocket Casts if you want to use that one. So, but I've been listening a lot about the podcasting 2.0 and all that stuff that you guys have been talking about. I'm wondering about whether I should try one of these newer ones, too. Matt Cundill  46:01 Do you have a crypto wallet or anything crazy like that? I do not. I probably never will. Not if you work for Moneris. Right? Why would you need one? Exactly? Yeah, I got involved with fountain so that I could just send people some Satoshis sight, the guy bought like 100 bucks and SATs just so I could pass them around to people just to see how it worked. It's really just one feature of many. I think apples just made some changes that will allow transcription. So hopefully, like our podcast hosts will catch up and we'll be allowed to drop our transcriptions in so that they can be read. Or Apple will just do it for us, apparently. So. Yeah. I mean, there's all sorts of like, it could be a name tag, it could be geo local. Can I hear all the podcast in my area? It's gonna take some time to get there. But it's just, you know, way to play with it just to see what what happens. But explaining podcasting 1.0 is tough enough. Allan Grego  46:57 Yeah, I mean, so I used simple cast for my work podcasts. And I switched over to coal. And I was on Lipson and I switched over to co host when Fatima was my teacher, at U of T. I'm like, alright, I'll try this out. Because the quill had started this new hosting company. And I thought, you know, one thing I've learned kind of in the past is sometimes going local, even if it's small, you can grow together. And it's been great, like Co Host has been really good in terms of if I have an issue, they respond pretty quickly and some of their newer features. If I have feedback, I'll be heard right away. And it's been it's been really good and co host has been a pretty solid host so far. Matt Cundill  47:35 Anybody wants to check that out. And all of the podcasts that you're involved with, are in the show notes of this episode. Allan Grego  47:41 All right, thank you very much. Matt Cundill  47:43 Thanks a lot for being on the show. I really appreciate it. Allan Grego  47:46 Thank you for having me. Tara Sands (Voiceover)  47:47 The Sound Off Podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski. Edited by Chloe Emond-Lane. Social media by Aidan Glassey. Another great creation from the Soundoff Media Company. There's always more at soundoffpodcast.com.

One of the first questions I ask people when they make a decision to leave their radio job under the guise of retirements is: "Were you pushed or did you jump?" Unlike the Terry Dimonte "retirement" where he was clearly pushed, Ken Connors is leaving his weekend morning job at CJAD 800am on his own terms. In this episode, you will hear all about Ken's career which started at McGill Radio, continued throughout Ontario, to Ottawa and back to Montreal. Ken spent most of the 90's at CHOM and then he shifted to Standard Broadcasting's CJFM where he remained for 6 years before moving to 940 News, Q92 and then it was back to CJAD where he has been since 2016. A fairly remarkalbe career in North America's most unique radio market. Ken and I spent a little bit of time reminiscing about those days at CHOM, and some of things we learned about the broadcast business. Ken is well liked, a nice guy and was fun to work with on and off the air. Ken also was a regular on "The Corner Booth" which featured Bill Brownstein from the Montreal Gazette, Ken and Aaron Rand from CJAD. It was recorded at Snowdon Deli and featured some casual Montreal talk. Here is the final episode where Ken is a regular. TRANSCRIPTION Tara Sands (Voiceover)  00:02 The sound off podcast. The show about podcast and broadcast. starts now. Matt Cundill  00:13 Ken Connors has been on the air for 40 years, many of those in Montreal. He's worked on all the major English radio stations including shown MCs 96 q 92 940. News, and CJ ad. Ken worked at shome as the midday host throughout the 90s. And I got to work with him then and later in 2003. He's well liked wherever he works, a pop culture junkie. And he's a master at delivering content effectively, especially in those short breaks Music Radio PDS wanted, Ken has saved the best for last as we can host at CJ D, while he will be stepping away from broadcasting. He's still going to be around, which is a good thing. And now, Ken Conners joins me from Montreal to talk about his storied career. Why did you decide to call it a day? Ken Connors  01:03 You know, a bunch of reasons maybe a handful reasons. I like the idea of going out on 44 He wasn't good number to go out on. My wife's been retired for five years now. And she's enjoying it. I kinda look tired of the grind of even though I'm doing you know, only two days a week on my own Booker, I don't really have a content producer. So I was once this Sunday network around rolled around, I'd start thinking about okay, who am I going to book for next week and I usually booked like five or six interviews. I have my own worst enemy her times when it comes to prep like I do like to all myself in terms of cutting audio. Getting songs ready. I wanted to sound the way I wanted sound. So yeah, so I got a little tired of the grind. Mainly those were mainly the three reasons why I decided to get number one. Take Matt Cundill  01:49 me back to Ville St. Laurent. Yeah, what kind of radio Did you listen to Montreal radio on and what stations Did you listen to? Ken Connors  01:57 Growing up in our house it was CK jam. It was the was the top 40 station everyone listened to was the youngest of six I don't think I had control of the radio dial. But it was always on CKJ always listen to Portsmouth block with legendary Morty ban at CQ gym in Montreal during the 1970s. And then as I'm older I drifted over to show him an FM 96. And of course, as a kid, I mentioned this a couple of days ago on the air that when it came to school nights my mother was pretty strict about having me go to get get to bed at a certain hour, but she would either allow me to leave the light on and read or listen to the radio. And so I used to listen to the Expos broadcasts and Canadians play by play in bed at night during the week and so they've been quarantined. Dickerman were were we're had both had big a big impact on me Audio Clip  03:03 expose he was gonna pick up the rebound and put it through the crease candle as a deep in the Hartford XRT fans aren't here's a shot lay out the same island again. Well, you can say the rebound may score and he cared at all. While you can think Canvas and Matt Cundill  03:21 when it comes time to make a decision and you graduate from high school and forgive me I don't remember the high school that you that you went to I feel like I should know all this stuff because we would talk about this stuff on the radio. I know Terry went to pure fall calm and yeah, where did you go? Ken Connors  03:36 I went to Father McDonald High School in Santa Clara that doesn't doesn't exist anymore. A lot of father macarons as we call them, stayed in touch and reached out to me on the air over the years. So it was kind of nice. And I still I still have been sent off five minutes from where I actually grew up. Matt Cundill  03:50 Did you go to McGill. Ken Connors  03:51 I did not go to McGill. Uh, well, I took not officially but I took various evening courses at McGill. I actually got my start behind a microphone at McGill on their campus radio station. Back in the early 1980s. I had a weekly radio show at the radio set the campus station on Tuesday nights, I think was from six to eight. And it was great. So it was my first chance to sort of get behind a microphone on a regular basis and see if I was any good at this thing. You could pick my music music to Matt, which was key. Matt Cundill  04:22 And I gotta You were good. Because you know, eventually you did wind up in radio. Yeah, Ken Connors  04:26 I'll tell you a quick story about those those days of doing shows at McGill. And because I'm such a fan of FM 96. The reason evening announcer by the name of Richard Bernal opened one night on the request line, introduce myself and I said look thinking of pursuing a career in radio and I've been a demo tape for my shows at Radio McGill. Would you listen to tell me what you think. He invited me down the day, the very next night. And now you know when you're when you're in your early 20s. And you get invited to a radio station that you listen to like it's like it's winning the lottery. So I went down, and I think he got off at 11 o'clock and came downstairs and got me propped me up. We went into a production studio, and he popped the tape into the machine and listen to it for you know, I had three minutes worth of clips. And he said, I hear some potential there. And I think he should pursue this. So give it a go, you know, there's, there's stuff there to work with. And that's all I needed, you know, as a 21 year old or whatever. So I always I find I've had thanked him over the years, every time I run into Matt Cundill  05:26 some from there, you got the demo tapes out? Yeah, I Ken Connors  05:29 said 25. At the moment, 25 demo tapes there. I think the demo was like four minutes long, because the advice was, you know, they're going to decide in the first minute whether or not, they'd like to hear sounds. So I've got plenty of sorry, we don't have any openings. At this moment. I said, it's all small market stations in Ontario. And I got one job offer and it was in northern Ontario and Kirkland lake. And they said, Would you like to do that? We'd like to have the opportunity to do our openings. At four. I went up but wasn't even sure where Kirkland lake was. Found out in a hurry. It's about 10. It's a 10 hour drive north of Toronto. Wow. They hard. Matt Cundill  06:02 And eventually you worked your way, sort of through some other Ontario stations before you got back to Montreal? Yeah. Ken Connors  06:08 My wife, my girlfriend at the time, we kind of agreed to let's see, we'll give it a little give it a five year plan. Right. Let's see if we can make back in five years. I think it was in Kirkland lake for about a year and a half. And then I worked my way down to Guelph just outside of Toronto, of course, and I did two years there to the afternoon show and wealth. And then I got a buddy I knew was working a swing shift in Ottawa at a station called 54 rock which became the bear since I'm going to go somewhere else. He says why don't you send a tape now send a tape now. And so I got his swing shift, which is I think evenings a week. A couple of shifts. I got his I got his swing shift in Ottawa, rock and I got his apartment as well. It took over the lease, it all worked out. And I think I got his couch. Who was that? That was Don Landry spent some a lot of time working in sports radio. Matt Cundill  06:57 So by the way, that station was owned by Standard Broadcasting was on a weird spot on the dial at 54. Because 580 was really the Juggernaut right beside it, which was which was CFRA 540 did not have as much power but it played some great songs. We Ken Connors  07:15 did. We did. There's terrific guy there. Gord Taylor was the program director at the time that took me under his wing. He could not have been nicer to me for the time I was there. But it was only on for six months because I started in. I guess it was January of 89 to 54 Rock.  I loved it. Another person there. I don't know if you know, Gary Aube Matt Cundill  07:32 Oh, yeah. Magic. Ken Connors  07:34 Yeah, magic. Yeah, exactly. Anyway, so come I guess, late May, I got a call from the program director at showman said, Hey, guys, we hear you're looking at a couple. Yeah, it was a free for me the only show but I started in June of 89. Matt Cundill  07:48 In McLean gives you a call. I don't know if this is public knowledge. Or I don't know if I'm, you know, speaking from hearsay, but I think Ian was at one point offered a job at 54 rockin in Ottawa to go from. Ken Connors  08:00 Yes. Alright. So it Matt Cundill  08:03 was good to know that, you know, he was, you know, within your within earshot of him and you found your way back and did a couple years of all nights there stay. It's funny as we go through this. There's things I don't remember. I don't remember you doing the all night show. Ken Connors  08:15 I started in June of at night. And then I guess it was June of 1990. They they bumped me up from all nights and I took over the electrical and shower intimidation. Matt Cundill  08:25 I seem to recall it being sort of a big day where there's a number of shifts. And I think Chris Michaels was like going and Algra. Val was like, Oh, the same day. Pete Marissa came in to do drive and you were going to do mid days. That's quite the overhaul. Ken Connors  08:36 Yeah, yeah, it was a it was a big change of the session. And it's funny Pete and I reminisce about that. Because as I was doing the weekend morning. Last six or seven years, Pete was down the hall on weekend morning show. And so he'd always pop in, he pop in to see me during the 630 news. And I'd go see him after Matt Cundill  08:54 I think it was Christine Long, who called me up to give me that newsy. Oh, wow. That's that's pretty significant changes. But at the same time, I don't remember shown being in any particular ratings trouble in that era where when marriage changes, I think it was really just about let's bring some chemistry into the building and bring some some some new life and let's get into the 90s. Yeah, Ken Connors  09:13 yeah, I think I think that was the whole idea behind it. And it's funny, you mentioned Christine, because she's been a regular contributor on my weekend morning show here in Montreal. And she's been great. And she actually trained me on the board. When I first got the job at shome because she was doing she was a student at McGill at the time and she was she was occasional overnights and so seeing like a Matt Cundill  09:32 way back a couple of years later. 1992 you get married? Ken Connors  09:36 Yes. And I want to apologize for everybody. And so there's Matt Cundill  09:39 no reason why I should have been invited to the wedding. Absolutely no reason where you watch film at the time I was but I just started like I was I barely started, but I will tell you a story about what happened that day. Is it May or June you got married in May 22. So I remember it completely. It was a Friday, I'd gone out We'd all gone out at least those who weren't getting married the next day. Were Terry's as the limo shows up in the limo. The limo gives me a ride back to my place. I show up back at back at my place looking completely disheveled and sleep off the rest of the day and everyone else has to go to a wedding. Ken Connors  10:18 I always remember my the night before my wedding because it was also Carson's final night. That's right. Audio Clip  10:25 And so it has come to this. I am one of the lucky people in the world, I found something I always wanted to do. And I have enjoyed every single minute of it. I want to thank the gentleman who shared the stage with me for 30 years, Mr. Ed McMahon. Mr. Doc Severinsen. You people watching can only tell you that it has been an honor and a privilege to come into your homes all these years and entertain you. And I hope and I find something that I want to do and I think you will like and come back to she'll be as gracious inviting in your home as you have done. I've sent you a very heartfelt Goodnight. Matt Cundill  11:20 Oh yeah, I remember and you know, with with Bette Midler and remember, Ian McLean came over the next day, and we watched it a couple times with Terry and how the whole thing was executed. And then we discussed whether or not we should be adding the Red Hot Chili Peppers. Okay, so we're not kidding about this part. shome had problems when it came to adding music. It wasn't the fault of the music director. But the program director couldn't see himself through to add songs like Nirvana Smells Like Teen Spirit. And as well, that hot chili peppers under the bridge. Of course, we should add the Red Hot Chili Peppers. And we never did add the Red Hot Chili Peppers until much later it was just the bizarre conversations that we had back in in rock radio. And as the 90s went through, you know, Shawn goes through some stuff, most notably, Terry leaves. John Derringer comes in. And you and Peppermint Patty actually got together and did a great little show between 130 and two every Thursday, I think was an entertainment type show. So you know, it wasn't just rock radio and spinnin records and, you know, short, concise breaks that you were doing, but there was some other, you know, what we call the foreground back then, even though it didn't really exist, but there was there was some other programming that you began to divest into. Yeah, Ken Connors  12:41 we were both pop culture junkies. And so I don't know how that show came about. Maybe we pitched it to me, and we called it the bus. But a lot of clips said there was a lot of slicing audio tape at the last minute. And of course, I guess at two o'clock, we started the afternoon show. I do believe in your company, we did rock and roll news. Matt Cundill  12:59 Well, a lot of people think it was just, you know, 30 you're doing the midday show. It's just you know, short breaks, it was just way more than that. I will say that you taught me how to do short breaks, and to get the break down to a concise, complete thought. So thank you for teaching me that along the way. Because if not, I wouldn't have made it in radio. You Ken Connors  13:19 know, I like to always remind people that we were so spoiled with our location on green Avenue in Montreal, but to what's exactly a short to block block for the Montreal forum. That's why so everyone performed at the Winter before more or less walk walk down the street with the rector prep and do some brown library do. Matt Cundill  13:37 As Patty said, the two best jobs in the city where you play for the Canadians are your work to show? Ken Connors  13:41 Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And a great era to Matt Cundill  13:45 you know, between 92 and 95 expos did, we're doing well. Sean was doing well. The Canadians won the Stanley Cup. I got to work at showman that particular period with with you Pete Terry Derringer comes in for a time Patty's there Paul Beauregard evenings and I just, I added, I started to add up all the people and how long they were for too tall included. We'll throw in his 39 years in radio. Sure. It's a combined 350 years of radio experience with all these people, Ken Connors  14:18 a lot of great people a lot of stories of just some a lot of talent in that building over the years. But yeah, when I got back from my honeymoon, I got a phone call from blurb, Archer, who was what's the use of military had left was going down the streets of competition. Change things up a little bit in 1992 that Matt Cundill  14:39 changed the trajectory of shown for the next decade and eventually led to it being sold to standard I think in 1999 ish. Yeah. When did you leave shome Ken Connors  14:52 I left CHOM in 1997, I believe and then started working there after that. Have at least 96 and took over the midday slot their days in the mornings and I did mornings for about three years with get Spencer Matt Cundill  15:11 and how accepted was it just to go to the next tarried already done it so there's a bit of a blueprint, but now you're doing it. Listen There's just tons of shared listening between CHOM and Mix 96 at the time - how'd you find it? Ken Connors  15:25 It was there was a little more scrutiny I think with with your brakes and how tight they wanted them to be a lot of talking over ramps and so but I managed to to adjust and enjoy my time there immensely. It was Blair Batrem who became our program director at Mix 96. Matt Cundill  15:42 Well that would suck. Ken Connors  15:43 It was that was great. We had a history together of course we started out... Matt Cundill  15:50 you know some unusual combinations that I would never think of but that's why Blair's Blair whoever thought this up but you and Cat Spencer together. Wow. Ken Connors  16:00 Yeah, you don't want to I was doing middays from 10 to three and the cat was doing is three to seven in the afternoons. But we do a little crossover break Blair Blair told us when he offered us the job. He says, You guys were great. Just on those three minutes crossing over into great, you're both funny. So I want to just you know those minutes. Impressive. You know, I Matt Cundill  16:20 mean, it's a hot AC station. And it was two guys. And a lot of people just think in their heads. Well, we have to sort of maybe get a third we maybe we'll mix it up in this particular way. But here are two school jocks who have it but the chemistry of the two of you together just worked so why did it work so well with him? Ken Connors  16:41 I think we're we were great friends because even as we we did had our separate shifts, we would always go out together for lunch and talk radio just really hit it off. Still great friends now and it's too long. And I have to mention to what really helped us because our ratings were good. And we had up we had a blast too in the morning show was that Maureen Holloway was doing I think three segments a morning or two segments a morning with us. Maureen Matt Cundill  17:06 Holloway was going across the country and you got three breaks there would be two for instance, in in Halifax there would be we had one in Winnipeg to Edmonton and as well just doing the work in Toronto as well. And she would go across the across company so she was she didn't have to be I think she was working for course at the time actually but you know she would do breaks and standards so that was contract or you pay cash to to have more you know on the show. I wouldn't know about that. I did because I for years kept saying I need one more and more in Holloway break. But I could never get it somebody else in another market would have to give their break up right in order for me to get it so I was trying to squeeze you out of a break with Maureen. Ken Connors  17:51 She was Gold! Tara Sands (Voiceover)  17:52 transcription of the sound off podcast is powered by the you may also like podcast, the show about people places and things. Follow the show on your favorite podcast app, or at You may also like dotnet Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  18:07 this podcast supports podcasting 2.0 So feel free to send us a boost if you're listening on a new podcast app, find your new app now at podcasting two point org slash apps. That's podcasting. Two point org slash apps. Matt Cundill  18:22 I think there was only one other change that happened. And I think it was in 2002 when the purchase of shome to standard happened. Did you get moved out of morning's I Ken Connors  18:35 got no not put that changed. They brought a new program director I think in 2003 2004 and he made some changes to so I they let me go there and so I bumped though I was picked up by Mark Dickey property over to 940 News, which was an upstart radio station to talk to you use talk radio station to sort of challenge CJD. Okay, Matt Cundill  19:01 I'm not letting the moment go count, because you got fired. And I was like, who fires Ken Connors? Well, someone did. Yeah. But it was the exchange as far as I heard a no. And I just wanted to confirm it was You're firing me. And you were firing me? It was one of those things that just didn't make sense. Ken Connors  19:19 No, I guess I guess at the time being the new program director wanted to put a stamp on station and he decided that stamp would involve changing the morning show on the morning show personnel. But it was too bad because the ratings are really strong. I mean, some of this I remember some of the salespeople were coming up and telling me like, you know, we're not number one, but we're really strong. Number two, we're making money. There's no need for this, but that's ready for you. Matt Cundill  19:43 I mentioned it because it was a big takeaway for me as I later became a program director, in terms of you know, when you make a change, and how expensive it is, yeah, and it doesn't always have to be at at moving somebody out of the building. It will very, very Very likely doesn't even have to happen at all. It doesn't have to be radio could be baseball, it could be hockey, we see a lot of times in hockey, where you're going to move the center, we need a third line, whatever, we got to fix the power play. And you know, managerially the rush line is if you choose not to decide you still made a choice. And the best thing, I just looked at that thing going, like, just don't touch it. It's fine. Yeah. Oh, so I don't know why we feel the need to change things and move the pen from the left side to the right side of the desk. We're gonna change the whole morning show today. I mentioned that. Just to point out that that had an impact on my career and making decisions as program directors. We don't always have to do what we think we need to do. Ken Connors  20:47 Yeah, yeah. Don't reinvent the wheel, leave well enough alone, and just run with it. Matt Cundill  20:52 And Mark Dickey, who we've worked with at shome, at the time was over at Corazon 940. And listen, not the worst thing in the world because I wound up working for course to There you are 940, which was a news wheel. Yeah. And I mentioned earlier, the segments that you've done, you know, where you're writing rock and roll news and the buzz but now it's an easier transition over to the news. We'll I Ken Connors  21:15 don't know if it was necessarily an easier transition. It was a lot of work. And it kind of opened your eyes to how much work is involved. But it was an education. I learned a lot. He did the morning. Show there for a couple of years, I believe, and that we were working in plus Bonaventure. And there was a lot of different changes with ownerships and what have you, I worked at 940 News. And then I got bumped over by the company to take over the afternoon show a cue 92 And then finally, q 92. And 940 Chorus sold all their English radio properties to coach and 92 Five or 92 suddenly became the beat 92 fine there. So I was in that building really? under that roof for about 11 years. What Matt Cundill  21:57 was it like working over there? That's the only building in Montreal that I really don't have any experience working in although, you know, it was course I've only I've only been in there one time. says What was your you're talking about? Right? Yeah. And at the course office in class, Bonaventure, what was that culture like? And that station like because you worked at Shum, you worked at MCs, and now you're on what we always thought was the dark side. Ken Connors  22:25 It was it was a little different. It was a certainly a bigger building. It is a cozy feel. But it was it was it was fine. I enjoyed my time there. Matt Cundill  22:36 It's a great building. And your next move after that. Ken Connors  22:38 I was happy at the beat 92 Five I was doing weekend mornings. And you know, I was the older guy at kind of a younger hipper station and so but they appreciated my radio experience. And so I was I became basically the Assistant Program Director Nipper under a comfort of having your own office man, when the door closes, which it got a lot of work done. I I enjoyed it. Everything that was happening at the radio station came by my desk one day I was at the airport in 2016. And Chris berry at CJD, the program director he called, he said, Hey, Dave Fisher's retiring the longtime weekend morning post. Let's see what you feel about coming over and talking to us about it. And so I started in August of 2016. And I was very flattered. You know, he gets a certain age in this business, and not a lot of people are offering new jobs. I thought it'd be a good fit, take over and fill those shoes because this guy was loved. And he is a broadcast legend David Fincher, tell Matt Cundill  23:34 me about working weekends. Because I've always thought I'd love to do weekends. But I also like to stay out late Fridays and Saturdays. So I'm not sure that that would ever work for me, but it works for you. It Ken Connors  23:45 didn't work for me. Well, you know, you just you just have to do it. And that wasn't a stranger doing the boring show, as it was with Dave Fisher as opposed to all the other announcers that CJD, all the other shows, I did not have a booker. And so that was a big part of the job, part of the contract negotiations and salary. And so it's a lot of work. It's a lot of work, but I enjoyed it. And it was a nice reminder about the power of community radio, working at CJD 800, you know that there's a very, very strong, loyal audience there. And it's, it's a historic station. And Matt Cundill  24:18 then when you get in there, you're now seeing all the people that you either replaced were replaced by or worked against. I know in one place. Ken Connors  24:27 I know that because they brought me in for a big announcer a staff meeting to introduce me and it was like, it was like going to a high school reunion. You know, I said, five people, I'm not a stranger to any of them. So it was it was kind of like going home in a way, which was nice. Yeah. Matt Cundill  24:41 Aaron Rand would be there. Andrew Carter. Andrew Carter. Thomas rocker. Yeah, yeah, I mean, it'd become sort of it's somewhat it's like almost like the Hall of Fame. Right? Ken Connors  24:52 Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Montreal radio. Yeah, there's some there's some legends. Trudy Mason, of course, Trudy has been there for forever and she's glue that holds that place together in that newsroom. I Matt Cundill  25:02 got four years in that building. That's the thing. Can I was there from 2002 to 2006? Doing? I was a PD at shome. Oh, right, right, of course, right. And then somewhere like 2003 or four ish, you know, you got like, oh, that happened, like, right across the hallway from me. I might. Okay. So that's why, again, that had an impact. Because, you know, I was talking with the salespeople and dealing with, you know, everyone in the building who had, you know, had comments about that sort of thing. So, I played therapist, counselor. Yeah, one person, one guy goes who fires can Connors. Just, that's, that's what, that's what that was like. But again, you know, I was, you know, door open door shut, I had the office across the hall, you know, from there. But again, sometimes that can speak to too many offices and too many doors. It's great to have one. But, you know, there, it felt like there was a lot of doors in that hallway at that time. And it was a strange time as well, because it takes it takes amount of time for it to come real for a merger to come together. I had to let friends go over a job that you and I are cordial with and friendships went in the garbage. And that's what you know, that's what happens. But you know, as time goes by, we all find a way to get back together, which I think is really nice. Yeah. And Ken Connors  26:18 I tell people to, because I've gone through it a couple of times over 40 years that you know, it's it's, it's, it's getting, like any hit by a bus and you don't expect it and you have to sort of bounce back. And when you least expected someone comes knocking on your door and offers you a job. How's Matt Cundill  26:32 Montreal radio different than any other market in Canada? Ken Connors  26:37 Was Montreal radio different from any other? Well, yeah, we're unique here. We have our own set of problems in this province. I always I always defend the city, from people who've gone and moved away. You know, a lot of us have still stayed here at our home setting. The Metro radio is unique, you know, we we have a certain bond with the Francophone community as well. I don't think there's another market in Canada, she's just not sure how to explain it. She's got a certain genetic why you allow me that phrase? Matt Cundill  27:12 What are you going to miss the most about radio? Ken Connors  27:16 The fact that you know, when something happens, you can't wait to get on the air to talk about it. You know, that outlet? I think they'll miss that most the most. You know, I was telling someone the other day, I don't think there was ever a day where I didn't want to go into work. You know, you're a little under the weather you're in a bad mood. But I never never not want to go into work or didn't look forward to the show you put that in you know, is you put the essential put the headphones on crack them like the adrenaline starts to rush and you're off and running. I'll miss that. I'll miss that little charge. Matt Cundill  27:49 I didn't know you played golf. Ken Connors  27:50 I when I turned 40 Both my wife and I decided we were spending much too much time in the malls. And so we took up golf around the corner from our house, there was a golf course. Right? So we took it up and we love it. We're not best golfers, but we just love the outdoors. Love the game. Together. We travel together on vacations. It's been a real enjoyment. I Matt Cundill  28:17 feel like something I should know, is what Marina did for work. I know. I've heard that she's retired now. But what did she do? Out Ken Connors  28:25 of McGill. She landed a job at IBM and she was a project manager there for close to four years. We lived on nun's island together for a while and bought a house here in scelera. Matt Cundill  28:37 Remember that I remember your place in nun's Island. Ken Connors  28:40 And yeah, it was yeah, i we i enjoyed living on this island. I mean, it's, it was, you know, it's a five minute drive into town. But we want to be closer to my mom who was living in Celeron eating so we bought a house and sailor, wonderful. Matt Cundill  28:56 Are you nervous at all about the time? Are you going to just have too much to do? Because everybody I talked to who's retired, like I'm busier than ever. Are you planning on being busier than ever? Are you worried that you're gonna have too much time on your hands? No, I'm Ken Connors  29:08 gonna find like, just find a middle ground there. I don't think I'll be I'll be very busy. But I'm just going to have it's going to take a nice and easy I mean, I'm going to get involved in I think a couple of different things that keep me busy. We're going to travel a lot. Yeah. Looking forward to that. And, you know, I'm still, I'm still gonna do a little bit of honor work over the next year or two at CJD, just to fill in ease into retirement. Matt Cundill  29:32 I think that's great, because it's like, oh, Ken is retiring, but he's still going to be around which is perfect, right? Ken Connors  29:38 Yeah. Well, yeah, probably. They always say you know, you need to find something that you you can focus on once you retire and it's something you enjoy. Well, that you can do every now and then and so it was staring us right under your nose. Well, I like being on the air. So I came to the room where I like fill in every now and then just to stick my toe back in the water. I think travel Matt Cundill  29:57 destinations. Oh funny. Yeah, well, Ken Connors  30:00 we got a we. My wife's brother lives in California he has for about 20 years now in Long Beach and so we, a lot of computers go to Florida, we got to go to California. And we discovered Palm Springs. We love the desert. We love it there and it's a great place to golf. It's a two hour drive outside of LA Ah, Matt Cundill  30:20 well, we have a direct flight to Palm Springs from Winnipeg. Ken Connors  30:24 I know. I know. Well, that's that's the thing that we when we golf and we get paired up with people, nine times out of 10. They're Canadians that you'd love. You'd love it in Palm Springs, because the casinos are full of what they call the heritage music acts, you know? Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like, hey, if you want, you know, Richard Marx is playing at the casino tonight. Anyone who was from the 80s or 90s? Matt Cundill  30:47 Well, yeah, you can get sticks with front with lacing or gallon. That's right. Absolutely. I know what's happening. But it's most of the Hard Rock X people with long hair, who we used to champion on show him in the early 90s are now playing in the casinos. They've got no hair, but half the members that they had before. Ken Connors  31:08 Yeah, absolutely. There's always someone to see they gotta they gotta they got a lot of talent there. So we're planning a trip to Portugal. What else Argentina is on my wife's list. We might even tackle a trip to Japan Matt Cundill  31:23 can it's good to know that you're that you're retiring but you're still going to be around the radio and you're not completely leaving it and we'll always be able to give you a lesson on CJD when you're filling in and whatnot so I guess correct congratulations are in order because most of the time I start the shows with where you pushed or did you jump it's nice to know that this is on your own volition. Ken Connors  31:46 Yeah, that's that's come up a lot for people who have reached out in the the response from the listeners or my colleagues has been overwhelming. One common thread that keeps coming up. You know, it's great to see a better leave on your own turn to something always want this year. Matt Cundill  32:02 Thanks so much for doing this. Can I appreciate it? Oh, Matt, Ken Connors  32:05 you're welcome. Great to talk to you. Great to see you. Thanks for the invitation. Tara Sands (Voiceover)  32:08 The sound off podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill produced by Evan sermon ski edited by Chloe emo Blaine, social media by Aiden glassy, another great creation from the sound off media

So this is episode 400. I'm never really sure if as podcasters we are supposed to celebrate these milestones publicly; I have never heard a listener tell anyone that "you need to listen to Episode 100 of" any podcast ever. But I have heard them say, "Did you check out the episode with [insert relevant person here]"? Tell your friends that Dave Jackson is on the show this week as we head Back to School. Dave is the owner of the School of Podcasting and has countless resources to help you get started with your show. This includes no fewer that 4 podcasts including: Ask the Podcast Coach, Podcast Rodeo Show, Your Podcast Consultant, Your Podcast Website, and The Future of Podcasting. In this episode I learned about why you need a "podcasting why" before you start your show, the difference between a YouTube show and a podcast, why you (still) need a website for your podcast and what needs to be on that website. (Spoiler: He recommends Podpage which we use for our network page). Dave and I also dug into the super trendy question du jour: Do you need to have video for your podcast. It turns out you don't need to stress yourself out over video as much as people let on. Finally, we dabbled in the future of podcasting discussing Podcasting 2.0 which will enable podcasters to do more things, and enhance the experience for the audience. Now is as good a time as any to thank the many people who have helped build the show over the years. Broadcast Dialogue Evan Surminski Lauren Siddall Chloe Emond-Lane Kendra Magnus Aidan Glassey Courtney Krebsbach Tara Jayne Sands Sean Carr NLogic Canada Matt Fogarty Mary Anne Ivison Rocco Macri Christy Pritchard TRANSCRIPTION Tara Sands (Voiceover)  00:02 The sound off podcast. The show about, podcast and broadcast, starts now. Matt Cundill  00:13 Well, would you look at that. This is episode 400 I never thought I'd ever get here. The first episode was released back on June 12 2016. And alongside the 400 episodes, there have been nine bonus episodes and a trailer. So for this episode, I've decided to go back to school. Dave Jackson is the owner of the School of podcasting had a podcast education at Lipson and host of a number of podcasts that will teach you how to be a better podcaster. He's also in the podcasting Hall of Fame. In short, he is one of the OGS his podcast range between the podcast rodeo show, which is where he listens and reviews someone's show, until he can just take it no more to the future of podcasting, which she co hosts with Daniel J. Lewis, it covers podcasting 2.0, and more. He's also got asked the podcast coach, which he does with Jim Collison, which basically the whole thing is free podcast consulting for you. And he also has an entire podcast dedicated to the effective use of podcast websites. And now, Dave Jackson joins me from Cleveland, Ohio. I don't even know where to start with this show today, because I have so many questions to ask. And so much has changed in such a short period of time. But I want to start with where you start when anybody comes to you with a podcast. And that is the why one of the things you always ask is, what is your WHY for doing this podcast? So what sort of answer are you looking for? When you ask that question? Well, Dave Jackson  01:48 I want to be seen as an expert, I want to reach a global audience because I can't get any media press. I want to grow my network, I want to make some money. Those are the typical ones. And you know, then there's the other one, I want to have fun with my friends that people kind of overlook that. I'm like, sometimes that is the payment. I had two guys last night on the podcast review show. And I'm pretty sure the reason they do this is they've known each other for 50 years. And they're both improv guys. And they love to just get together and riff off each other. And now they're just letting the world listen to it. So yeah, those are the biggies, you know, it's some combination of all of those usually. But if you don't know what it is, then you can't like if I want to be seen as an expert, then maybe I'll do a 20 minute episode once a week and kind of look, look at what I know will give me you should hire me. But if if my goal is to keep my brand in front of you, that I might do a daily show, that's five minutes, that at the end says and I there was a show and I don't remember the name of the show, I just remember it was brought to you by the Association of Christian Athletes. And that was the way they ended every single episode, the show has been brought to you by the Association of Christian Athletes. And so five days a week that got beat into my brain, I can't remember the name of the show that in the the host name was Jimmy Page. And every time they said that I think of Led Zeppelin, you know, just so that was kind of fun. Matt Cundill  03:12 And usually podcasters have an expectation that after a certain amount of time, it could be seven episodes I find often it's like 17 episodes or six months. I want to monetize. And then it gets a little bit complicated, because maybe not everybody should, can will. And the big question they asked you is how do I monetize my show? Dave Jackson  03:32 Yeah, cuz usually at that point, 17 episodes, you may not have a huge audience yet. And depending on what your content is, you can't monetize dust. And so Kevin Schmidlin, over grow, the show had a great point, he goes when you want to monetize, you're asking your audience to take their their credit card out for something. And he goes, that either means they're buying a product or service from you, which is what I always recommend. Or if you have sponsors, they have to buy something from the sponsor, because if not, that sponsor is not coming back. But you have to figure they're going to be buying something somehow they're paying or they're you know, doing a Patreon, or crowdfunding or whatever it is. And the bad news of that, at least for when I was looking into crowdfunding. It's if you're lucky, if you're really good, you'll get 3%. And so when you have, let's just for easy math, say 100 listeners, okay, three of them gave you $7 a month. Okay, you paid for your hosting. But your goal was to quit your day job after 17 episodes and like not a bad dream. just way, way, way too early. And then you get really bad expectations. Like I did a YouTube video on how to do a podcast like Joe Rogan. And I got a lot of thumbs down because they said Okay, number one, start your career about 17 years ago, you know, and then he did I think it took him like seven years to make a comedy album. And then he was on TV, and then he did fear factor. And then he didn't you know, and I'm like so Oh, that's all you have to do is, you know, take, Mr. Beast I just heard out, found out the guy on YouTube. It's like the number one YouTuber, like first first seven years, he couldn't figure out really what he wanted to talk about. So when you're coming in at 17 episodes, you know, and I hate to, I don't want to discourage anybody, but I'm just like, it's just not the way it typically works. Matt Cundill  05:20 So I'm thinking back to that longevity where there was Joe Rogan or Mr. Beast and what really used to go on in rock and roll and and music is it used to take Well, it took Metallica seven albums, before they took off, it took REM seven albums before they got signed to Warner and really began to take off. And that model still still holds true today. Last time you were on the show, we talked a little bit about three years to build an audience. Does that still hold true? Dave Jackson  05:46 I have a folder of clips of people saying, yeah, things didn't really take off till about and it's usually three years. Occasionally I'll get one somebody that said to but it's like when did it really start somebody and ask a panel or whatever? When did you really start making money? And I can, if I was a betting man, I'd buy care put, you know, put 100 on three years, it just seems to be the the most common answer because it just takes a while the first year you're kind of finding yourself. The second year you found yourself. And now you've got your audience starting to promote your show. And by the third year, you've got enough people telling their friends about it that it's kind of self propelling at that point. One Matt Cundill  06:25 of the things I find about podcasts, I mean, you could be monetizing your podcast right now and not even know it because it's a form of marketing. You know, here I am. Here's what we're doing. Here's the value in the show. And people know about you. That's a form of marketing. Dave Jackson  06:40 Yeah, I mean, I work at Lipson, because I have a podcast, I got hired at Chancellor university because I knew about podcasting. I was hired for the New Media Expo, which at the time, this was pre Podcast Movement was a huge conference. And the guy called up, I didn't work at any of these companies yet. But he called Spreaker, blueberry and Lipson and said, Who should we hire to run the podcasting track, and they all said Dave Jackson. So welcome to humblebrag theater, but it mean that it's true. And so he finally called me and he goes, I'm tired of talking to people who say, I should just call you so I'm just going to call you. And that's because your podcast can be like this cool little digital resume that lets people, you know, you get to prove I know what I'm talking about, you can somewhat prove that you have an engaged audience on different metrics. And, you know, so when you go, Oh, by the way, I can do this. Hopefully, people, when people on occasion will contact me, they're like, Hey, can we get together and just pick your brain? I want to make sure we're a good fit. And I go, Look, I have 928 episodes of the School of podcasting. If you can't figure out we're a good fit. We're not a good fit. I'm like, just you know, so that's, it is, it's a great way to, I always kind of joke, it's a great way to meet, you know, 1000s of people without meeting 1000s of people, Matt Cundill  07:56 I could guest for another podcast sent me a note saying, Can you give me some background and what we're gonna be talking about? I'm like, well, there's 300 episodes inside this podcast already, you might want to listen to a few of those episodes, you'll pretty much understand the line of questioning that we're gonna have for you today. Just Dave Jackson  08:10 an idea. Yeah, I love when I get the Fung Shui expert who wants to be on the school of podcasting. And I'm like, unless somehow moving the furniture is going to help me grow my audience. I'm not really sure you're a good fit. So yeah, a little research always helps both on the on the guest side, and both on the host if you don't know who the guest is. So Matt Cundill  08:31 I'm glad you mentioned Fung Shui because a nice niche idea, like let's say basket weaving, if you're gonna start a podcast about basket weaving, and we're probably only gonna get about 100, maybe 200 downloads per episode. What should I be looking at, as a way to monetize? Dave Jackson  08:48 Well, would that functionally, because I mean, I know what it is, but I don't know that much about it. But there's again, it's either, maybe you're a consultant on how to set up your living room, that would be the easiest way. And then maybe there's your favorite ergonomic furniture that might want to sponsor the show, there's got to be other ways to do that. And then, you know, there's always bonus content, if you have people who really love your show. There's affiliate so if there's some sort of functional a product that ties in, you know, there's affiliate marketing, there's all sorts of different ways. The the fun news is all of those work a little bit. So it's always like, Well, which one should I use? I'm like, no, no, it's not which one, use them all. You know, I have some months that remember, somebody bought a big screen TV at Amazon. And I think it makes a whopping 4%. But all of a sudden, I'm like, wait, what, what did somebody buy? Because all of a sudden, this check came through and I was like, huh, all right, well, thanks, whoever that was. So it's it kind of comes and goes sometimes my consulting, I'm super busy and other days it kind of dims down and then affiliate stuff will come up or all of a sudden a bunch of new patrons will show up. So it's kind of like a stock portfolio by having multiple streams of income if one goes down may The other one will go up. So Matt Cundill  10:01 I felt that podcasters did a pretty good job right up until about 2018 2019. really conveying and expressing what an RSS feed is. And this is what podcasting is. And then along comes YouTube to really muddy the waters and create this confusion. And at Podcast Movement in 2023, one of the big sessions was the new rules of podcasting, which sort of shows how video is integrating with podcasting. They're calling it podcast, but it's not audio in an RSS feed. So tell me about the confusion that's involved with that. And really what it's led to. Dave Jackson  10:40 Yeah, as a guy with a teaching background, my job is to make things clear to understand, and a big giant gorilla walked in and just muddy the water. And people are like, well, you're anti YouTube. And I'm like, No, I'm anti, you know, making things hard to understand. A great example. This is country music used to be Womp womp weren't, weren't, you know, my truck, and my mom's in jail, that whole nine yards. And then they changed what country is now the country now is AC DC with a fiddle. And I listen to that. I'm like, That's not country. That's rock with somebody with a twang, and a mic. But now country, in quotation marks, which is really rock is now the top selling genre. And everybody's going, you know, Beyonce just released what a country album. Why? Because that's where the money is. So YouTube, and Facebook, you know, Google and Facebook had a really good handle on advertising. And along came this little thing called tick tock. That took a big bite out of their advertising. And so I'm picturing these guys at YouTube going, hey, you know, we got to do something to get people talking about YouTube. And somebody's I don't know, Larry, what do you got Larry's like, I don't know, podcasting seems hot. So they're like, great. YouTube is now podcasting. And that's really what they did. They just took out a magic wand and said, You're a podcast. And so what I hate about this is number one, I was helping to podcasters last night, and they're like, Well, we're thinking we really need to get into video. Because you know, and I'm like, Hold on, I'm gonna ask you a question. They're, like, I said, why? I said, you guys are having fun. Your podcast is successful for you. Why do you have this need to do video? And I'm like, I don't know, just, there was really their answer was, I don't know. Everybody just says I need to do video. And I go, I'm here to give you permission to not do video. I said, Now, if you have, obviously, it's the number two search engine, everybody quotes that that's absolutely true. But if you have the time, and the budget, and you want to do video, by all means do video, what I don't understand is why that's not called being a YouTuber anymore. Now, everybody's a podcast. And so when I hear people say, Oh, I have a podcast. And I go to Apple, and I can't find your show. And I'm like, wow, who is advising these people? They're not in the number one podcast app. And I find out later, oh, it's a YouTube thing. So that's, that's what just drives me nuts. It makes things very confusing. And you have, the thing that I hate is I have people and they'll tell me their idea for a podcast. And I'm like, That sounds amazing. It's unique. It's gonna be great. And I'm like, Yeah, I just, I don't know, I just can't do video though. And I'm like, Okay, well, don't do video. And they're like, Yeah, but don't you have to do video? And I'm like, no, no, you don't have to do video. So people think I'm anti video. And I'm like, I'm only anti video, when it stops somebody with a great message and a great passion. But they don't want to do video. That's what drives me nuts. And the fact that, you know, when they come out now with reports, my favorite is when they'll say, people are finding video podcasts on YouTube. And I'm like, okay, video podcast in English is video. So you're basically telling me more people are finding videos on YouTube? And I'm like, is this really reveal? Is this like some major reveal? Like, oh my gosh, but because they're calling a podcast now. It's like, oh, people are finding video podcasts on YouTube. And I'm like, well, so I always say there's, there's a Spotify video podcast, it only goes to Spotify. There's a YouTube video podcast that only goes to YouTube, and YouTube music. And then there's me what I call an original video podcast, which goes to about 20 different apps. And I'm like, so you know that again, it just makes things confusing. Matt Cundill  14:28 Yeah, so you just pointed out something that's kind of obvious. That's I know, it sits there, but I don't really care about and that you could put your video into an RSS feed. You can put your video on Spotify, and you can put your video on YouTube. But when people say I want to be on video, they really only talking about YouTube. I don't think I've ever watched a video on Spotify. If you told me to put this video up on Spotify think oh great. There's something else to do. And I'm not sure anybody's going to find it anyway because it's not the world's number two search engine. And I don't think anybody would want to download this show nothing against what we're doing. But that's a heavy download to go into any device. That's Dave Jackson  15:08 why YouTube took off because you can have a true video podcast. But video files are big. Most of the media hosts are based on how much we store for you each month. So your bill is going to, I don't know, double, at least, you know, and that was back when Apple had used to have a tab and Apple podcasts, it said audio and then another tab for video. And because YouTube was Well, YouTube, anything video just went to YouTube. I have I think right now 15 episodes as a video as a test on Spotify. Because if you listen to Spotify, guys, you know, press releases, everybody's watching video on Spotify and right, well, not my stuff, I literally have less than 20 downloads, and I probably have 15 episodes and I'm gonna say, you know, 13 of those are me. So, you know, at least for me a podcast about podcasting. They're not watching video on Spotify. And I always say if, if you saw somebody in the grocery store, like hey, did you see that video about that kid that did the thing. You're gonna go home and go to YouTube, you're not gonna Spotify to look for that. So I wish look, I love Spotify for music. I'm a subscriber, like stay in your lane YouTube, I love you for video. And for YouTubing stay in your lane. You know, Audible, love you for audiobooks stay in your lane, because the more you add all this stuff, it gets all clunky, like YouTube music is not a great app now for podcast. I I do listen to audiobooks in Spotify now. But I do notice they don't have like a bookmark feature. So it's kind of clunky the way like if you accidentally, that because what they do is after you listen to a chapter, they kind of hide it from you. So you can't go back and listen to it again. And I was like, Yeah, I didn't ask for that feature. I want to bookmark so I can go back to that part. So yeah, I kind of wish they would all just like instead of trying to be everything to everyone, just be the best at what you Matt Cundill  17:00 are. The YouTube made a mistake getting rid of Google podcasts. Oh, Dave Jackson  17:04 we're all like going, you got to be kidding. 3% of the market doesn't sound like much. But in podcasting, anybody trying to get into that market? Because I used to say you will pry overcast from my cold dead hands. And the only reason I'm not using overcast is because the guy Marco said I never doing this podcasting 2.0 stuff. And I was like, okay, so I found an app that looked and smelled just like his and I'm like, Okay, this is my new app. And all YouTube had to do was make it visible it was there it was on your phone, there just wasn't an icon. And from what I understand, the Android operating system is not like Apple where everybody is more or less on the same version. I guess on Android phones, it's a little different. But I was like, come on your Google, you gotta be able to figure that out. Because I'm pretty sure the same way people are like, what's this purple thing on an iOS phone, they click it? Oh, it's podcasts. And I have lots of people that loved it, because it will also have a really nice web based version. And so for the person that's like, I don't like technology here, copy paste this. There it is. It's on your website. Now you can listen to it. So I was deeply just like, ah, because the other thing is we've had Google, they had, what was the Google Plus, they've had a bunch of things that they've killed Google Glasses, Google glasses, but I remember when they're like, we're gonna put podcasts on the front page of Apple or on Evapo of Google. And for a while they did. And then you know, then they didn't and you're just kind of like, oh, you know, so have fun arguing with Google. I, I don't know. I mean, I talked to some people from Google at these events. And I sometimes feel like the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. You Matt Cundill  18:43 know, I remember that. They didn't roll it out in Canada right away. They rolled it out in the US and I went to I think it was like youtube.com/podcast or something. And then I saw the podcast, go figure out I don't know who any of these people are. Has there been an another podcast dimension that was created in another faraway planet that we just are meeting now? I thought it was very bizarre. Dave Jackson  19:05 And then you look at it, you go, Oh, these are all really popular YouTubers. Oh, that's why I haven't heard of these. And so yeah, it's you're not gonna, you know, Joe Rogan is not on that page. That's the one that really scratches my head, because I'm like, Wait, how? Hmm. And that just means that Joe hasn't gone in and waved the magic wand and said, Okay, you are now a podcast, because you do have to check a little box in YouTube to make that happen. But yeah, I'm with you. And I mean, on one hand, YouTube ads is great algorithm. And if you can figure out how to crack it, you're good to go. But yeah, when I went to that page, I was like, I've never heard of, you know, any of these people. Matt Cundill  19:41 I was really looking to see what would happen. You know, when Google podcast goes away, I know it's only been 10 days in the US and it hasn't gone away in other parts of the planet. But the minute the announcement came down, I could sort of see that consumption was dropping, but who's going to pick up the pieces to that and it turns out just apple and Spotify are going to pick up the pieces cuz I just don't see. I mean, Amazon would love to have 3% on their app. Dave Jackson  20:04 What Amazon needs to quit doing is when you go to Amazon the first time to consume podcasts, they beat you over the head with, please join Amazon music. And I get that it's marketing. But I'm like, That's my first impression that wow, look how easy it is. You're, you're asking for the sale. And I haven't even made it into the door yet. So I wish they would would quit doing that. And the other thing that I just, again, I just kind of go, this has to be two different teams. The fact that your your link to your show in Google podcast is not doubt not now, redirect to YouTube music. And I thought maybe at first, maybe you can't link to a show and YouTube music, but you can. So that to me is just again, missed opportunity. Sounds like maybe somebody rushed something I was just it's a head scratcher. Because if I was doing that, I always say if you if you quit one show. So let's say you've just, you've done this show for 10 years, you're tired of talking about the same thing, and you're gonna start this new thing, you would definitely let your audience know, because a lot of times people they come for the content, but they stay for the host. When I first started, I have a show for musicians, and a show for podcasting. And I had people coming to the music show, and I'm like, I didn't know you're a musician. Like what do you what do you play? And I'm like, Oh, I'm not a musician. I just I just think you're funny. And I was like, wait, what? So it's, you know, I can't believe they're not redirecting, because that would be an easy way to get a a bunch of new users into YouTube music. And then you can say, Oh, by the way, you know, by our product. Tara Sands (Voiceover)  21:34 transcription of the sound off podcast is powered by the podcast, Super Friends, five podcast producers who get together to discuss podcasting, sharpen your podcast and creation skills by following the show on the sound off podcast, YouTube or Facebook page. Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  21:53 This podcast supports podcasting 2.0. So feel free to send us a boost. If you're listening on a new podcast app, find your new app now at podcasting, two point org slash apps. That's podcasting. Two point org slash apps. Matt Cundill  22:08 I know you have the numbers, and you work with some incredibly successful podcasters. And maybe even some who have gone from video to audio. So do you have any stories of people who really wanted to reside in video, but then when you showed them the way in audio that the numbers were just way bigger in audio? Dave Jackson  22:26 Well, for a while Bill Maher was on Lipson. And when Bill was on he he does club random, and he was really into this video thing. He's got this cool little basement in a house next to his house. And we're Rob Walsh was working with him and said, hey, you know, you're gonna do audio, too. And he's like, no, no, we're just going to do video, just like, you should probably do audio. So we talked him into audio, he then hired a team to promote just the video. And when it finally came out, and you know, got off the ground, audio outperformed video about 10 to one. So it's just one of those things where, again, when I hear these people go, I kind of feel like I have to be on video. And I'm like, well, you're you're getting that from presentations from YouTube. Well, of course, YouTube is going to say you should be doing a quote, video podcast, right? In giant quotation marks on YouTube, because that's more stuff that they can run ads on. So you always want to consider your source. Any on anything. I remember when the if you were around for the fat is bad phase in the 80s and 90s. Yeah, that was based on a report that came out from the sugar people, because when you pull all the fat out of your food, it tastes like cardboard. So how do you fix that you pump it full of sugar. So always consider your source when you hear any kind of report that comes out that says, Wow, I I feel like I should really do this now. Like, okay, hold on. Let's let's Where did we get that report from? Matt Cundill  23:50 The sugar lobby is quite strong in the US, I think. And, by the way, any Canadian who goes down to, you know, a border town, go pull a cereal box and look at the sugar in an American cereal box versus a Canadian one. You'll see the sugar lobby in action? Dave Jackson  24:04 Very much. So Yes. Want to talk a little Matt Cundill  24:07 bit about podcast websites. You're a big proponent of pod page. I'm a fan as well. But this is something I see a lot of podcasters just skip over. People start talking about, you know, their budget, what they're going to do for a podcast and I said, well, where's the website? What is the importance of having a website still to this day for your podcast? Dave Jackson  24:26 Yeah. Can I do a shameless Matt Cundill  24:27 plug? Absolutely. Yeah, I Dave Jackson  24:29 just literally launched a podcast about this. It's at your podcast website. Because of this issue. I was sitting in a live or a stream or whatever you want to call it these days. I'm old. I want to call it a webinar. But and all these questions were coming up because it was about SEO and getting the most out of your website. And I was like, wow, these people are missing. Like part one. You know, and they we all quote, you know, YouTube's the number two search engine. Yep. You know what the number one is? Google. You know what it looks at websites. I'm like, why are we so I'm just incredibly giddy about YouTube. And we're skipping the number one. And so the other thing is, especially if you're trying to monetize, you have to have someplace to go buy your stuff. And in the first episode, I talked about things like mp3 dot com. And I remember TV commercials saying, build your website on Facebook, no one would do that now because they own it, you know. So things like that you need a place that's your own. And what really just I go, Wait a minute, I'll go in, and somebody's type this huge amount of episode descriptions, you know, the shownotes. And then they'll direct people to the Lipson website, or the Buzzsprout website and like, wait a minute, your your books on your website, why aren't you pointing people at your book? And they're like, Well, I, you know, I just the either a thought they had to use their media host website, I'm like, Nope, just all you have to do is to copy and paste one for the, you know, the text, and one for the player. And it's on your website, and then what people miss is, so now I've got words, I'm in the world of Google. Now I've got words on my page. So I'm gonna get found great. So I click the link from Google, I go to your website, oh, wow, there's a player here. Let's see what happens when I click this. Oh, wow, this is entertaining. So I sit there for 13 minutes, and Google goes, Wow, that's really weird. Every time I send something over to that website, they sit there for like, 1015 minutes, this must be really good content. So then if somebody likes it, they can share it with their friend more SEO juice, you know. So i i It is one of the things that I've realized that it's overwhelming when you first start a podcast because you're like, Look, I just want to talk into a microphone. And now I got to learn social media, I've got to learn how to edit my audio, I might be doing video stuff. And now I got to do a website. So I get it. But it's really one of those things. Especially if you're trying to get engagement with your audience. I, I literally just had somebody say some very nice things about me on a TV show. And I went to the TV shows, it's a video podcast, went to their website, a gazillion links, not one of them said, contact. And I actually had to reach out to them on Twitter, to say, Hey, can I get a clip of that? It was really nice to hear. So you need a website for people to contact you. I've gotten a sponsorship before because I had a website and it was somewhat organized and looked okay. And they're like, oh, yeah, you look legit here have some money. So there are all sorts of reasons to have a website. And by that I don't, I don't mean link tree. Link tree is just a bunch of links. There's no SEO and link tree. And it's funny, because yeah, it's gonna cost you 20 bucks a month, maybe a little more. But it's always funny how, you know, your your little one comes up and you know, little Suzy needs braces. And somehow you find the money for that. Like, why not find that, you know, put down the Starbucks and get a website, Matt Cundill  27:50 you're also probably going to use Google to find the orthodontist who has a website who can get little Suzy the braces Dave Jackson  27:55 Exactly. And I always love when people go find me, wherever you find podcasts, that's the worst thing you can say. Because most people don't realize I know it, I live it every day in support. You can go in some cases into Apple and Spotify and type in the exact name of the show, and it won't show up. And I'm just like, so you've just sent your audience down a rabbit hole. Why not put links to Apple and Spotify and Amazon on your website. So now it's your website.com/follow. Now we're reinforcing that brand. Again, if people share that we're getting some more SEO, you know, it's just all these things on my cat all starts with your website. And with things I know, you mentioned, pod page, I love it. And I love the fact that I can hit publish in my media host. Go grab a sandwich and come back and my websites updated. So yeah, it's it's not something we have to be a giant geek anymore, either. And I'm glad Matt Cundill  28:46 you started this podcast. I know you were soliciting questions at one point in Facebook, I might have thrown you a couple. But I've got you now saw this ask them. So transcription, you've got to have transcription and embed it somewhere into the site. So if I take my transcription for let's say, this show, and I copy and paste it, and then I paste it right into the blog page for the episode page for the show. Google is going to look at that as being sort of a 25 minute read. And I'm wondering if I'm gonna get marked below the line, and maybe not, Google's not gonna send people here because it's such a long read. Is that possible? Dave Jackson  29:20 Well, there are a couple things. I always say Google likes good words. And so I am guilty of this, you take a transcript, and you just like, look, I gotta pick up somebody at soccer. So you just copy and paste and you put a thing at the top. This is an unedited version of the transcript. Have fun, you know, well, when somebody then reads that transcript, and it's like, what's the weather like today? You know, all that chit chats in there, things like that. So they do like good words. And I usually say we don't write like we talk and we don't talk like we write. And so usually my episode description is just a blog post. I do that before actual record because it helps keep me up. gonna focus on what the heck I'm supposed to be talking about. I don't read it, because who wants to hear someone read their blog post to them on their podcast? That's boring. But it does. Let me figure out what the heck am I trying to say on this episode, so I flush that out. And then I just copy and paste that. So I put the transcript, but I am guilty of that just going, Hey, kind of like if you want to get the gist of what's in this episode, I write really extensive descriptions from my episodes. But I usually say this is unedited, and I will try to cut out the, you know, cat talk, or, you know, French toast recipes, or whatever we're talking about before we actually hit record for that. But, you know, I could see that too long. Don't read kind of thing. But I don't know, you know, I've read where Google likes, you know, a couple 1000 words for a really like, Cornerstone kind of episode. So that might actually be a good thing. I've Matt Cundill  30:51 taken down my Google badge actually did that about six months ago, and I heard they weren't going to invest in it. So I'm not going to invest in them. And I got rid of them. I'm not very keen on putting up any YouTube badge. I haven't really tried the app. I don't want to send people to a YouTube page to necessarily watch us. I hope they discover us there. Because I'm really interested in the download and having clients and dynamic audio insertion get into people's ears. So what badges should I be putting on my website? Well, Dave Jackson  31:18 always apple and Spotify by doing that, you'll get 80% of the market. The one that I'm I am sniffing that I still like well, there's there's two one is pod you Rama, and it works on Android, it works on iOS, they have a beautiful web interface. There's one feature missing, and that is they don't do anything in the podcasting 2.0 space. And I was like, Oh, come on. So then I found podcast guru. And it does pretty much everything you want it to do. I'm a big fan of what I call a smart playlist where I can go in and make a playlist called Health. And then I have a couple shows I listened to that are about weight loss and fitness. And I can say when they have a new episode out, put them in the health playlist. And when I'm in the mood to listen to health stuff, I go to my health playlist. And what do you know, there's six episodes in there. They don't do that. There's the other side of that is what's called a queue. And this is where you want your app to deliver a wheelbarrow full of episodes. And you go yep, this one, this one, that one, that one, and you throw it into the queue. And your queue is like just a giant playlist. And so I talked to the guys that podcast guru and said, Hey, any chance you guys are coming out with a smart playlist? And thankfully, they said yes. So they I don't have an ETA. But that is one I like because they do also have an Android and iOS. And they have a web based version, which is kind of handy. I listen to podcast when I can at work, and I love to have it on a computer screen. And then when it's time to go to lunch, I'll grab my phone, and you can just kind of pick up right where you left off. So those are the two right now that I like I know there's Pocket Casts, is has just added chapters. So I was excited about that. Because originally, they came on and said, we're going to do the podcasting 2.0 stuff in like a year and a half later, they've done zero. So it sounds like they're they're slowly stepping up to the game. And there's podcast addict has been around forever. But they again, just going to their website, you're gonna get hit with about four ads, annoying ads, and they're like, I'm just trying to get to the search box. So they're a little aggressive. And I understand people have to eat but as a first impression, I think so. But that's another one there. But I think right now, my if I had to pick one, it's a podcast guru, even though they don't have the feature that I really like, but it's on the way. Matt Cundill  33:35 So thinking back to about 2018 and there was a lot of discussion in podcasting about becoming IAB certified. How are we going to count let's learn to count properly. SoundCloud doesn't know how to count they don't even know how to get the categories into Apple. If SoundCloud is easy to pick on, because they haven't changed anything and so long and do not use SoundCloud. But you know, someone like me, I've got a few podcasts that are sitting on megaphone because I'm a big fan of being IAB certified, and you wake up one morning and that morning was Monday, and it is no longer I be certified. So now what? Yeah, that's Dave Jackson  34:12 a head scratcher. Because I remember pre certification. And like one was podcast one, everybody. Nobody says this out loud, but I will but their numbers weren't exactly there were little not not in a mean spirited or fraudulent kind of way. But everybody knew their numbers were a little higher than everybody else's. And so if I was a buyer be like, Okay, well, we pay everybody else. X amount of money when you if they're hosted on podcast one, we're gonna pay them a little less because we're not really getting in front of that many people. So what happens is you have stuff like that and that was the whole thing that the IEP was supposed to solve. And so why Spotify? I did hear James Canadaland today say it's based on how much money you make as your your bill is based on that. I did see where they had like 3.8 billion in revenue with a 26% margin. So it doesn't sound like they're cash poor, but according to James, it would have cost Spotify half a million dollars. And I'm like, to me, that sounds like a lot of money. Maybe if you're making billions, maybe it's not. I'm not going to be surprised. Because Spotify as much as they love to say, Oh, we're into open stuff, and then release other things like, Oh, you can do a video podcast on Spotify, Asterix. If you take our feed, though, only the audio goes into the quote, video feed. So there's always a little like Asterix. And so I would not be surprised to hear that Spotify comes out with some sort of standard or something. And they're going to try to get everybody to use their standard because they seem to be a little headstrong about, you know, the world revolves around Spotify. And I'm just I would not be surprised by that. But yeah, I was. I don't get it. I don't I don't get the move. As far as I know, they haven't really said why they just said we're not. And I'm like, okay, so it is. It's odd. And I know, pod Bean was another one that didn't recertify Lipson just did Captivate did a bunch of us did. It is a pain in the butt. And it's not cheap. But we wanted to all be able to say a download is this. And kind of I'll be able to do that. And the whole point of that was to make it better for the advertising industry, because they were a little nervous coming in. So we all became IB certified. And when you have a big player like Spotify, pull out, you're kind of like, Ah, here again, you're not really, you know, not playing nice with others. And I'm sure they're not doing it. Who knows, but I don't think they said, Hey, let's mess up the whole podcasting space. Let's not be IBW certified. I wish they would have come out with like, here's the plan, but it is it is a head scratcher. Matt Cundill  36:49 Yeah, I've been a part of some radio groups in the past who don't like the way the ratings were compiled. So they would leave you know Arbitron and go to something else. Or they would try to save the $50,000. And hey, we're not going to do ratings, we're just going to sell on the value that we have. So I do think I was thinking in my head. Okay, how much is Spotify saving with this? I think the 500,000 number that the James says is probably close, because they probably have about what six, seven properties between, you know, anchor charitable megaphone that they would have to in each one of those things can be anywhere up to $50,000 each, perhaps, depending on the amount of data that you have to feed them. So I think the numbers right, but I'm worried that we're going to lose trust in podcasting when it comes to that. But there'll be more on that down the road, I'm sure but let me ask you about podcasting to point out because you've mentioned it twice so far. It's kind of a complicated thing that not everybody understands. But as we turn the page and look at some things that we want to put into RSS feeds to make things a little bit easier. What parts of podcasting 2.0 Are you looking for what sort of features Dave Jackson  37:53 man, I love chapters, I hated chapters in the early days of podcasts, because I remember it being an apple podcast. And they called them enhanced podcasts, they didn't call them chapters. And I'd want to go to the next episode, and it would go to the next section of the current episode I was in. But now doing shows where I have multiple topics, I love chapters, I love the fact that you can have a link that you can click on. So if you're talking, I would think sponsors would love chapters, because you can put a trackable link right there. So I love those. I love the pod row feature, where when I hear about this in a pod row feature, if you're around for MySpace, and you had your eight favorite friends, well, now you can have more than eight. And then you can make like a chart based on this the most referred because it's kind of like a recommended, here's a recommended show. Now that could be somebody else, or it could be another one of your shows. But I love the fact that you can then make a chart based on what people are just organically recommending I love that feature. The the one that grabs everybody's attention, is the whole streaming Bitcoin thing, because who doesn't want to make money. And that's actually I'm excited because true fans.fm That Sam Sethi just made it to where you can just take a good old fashioned credit card and put $10 worth of bitcoin into a wallet, because that was a pretty big hurdle. And a lot of times, you know, your bank would like flag it as who knows what and so I was really happy to see that. So I love that feature. And I I'm the youngest of my family. So when I grew up, in 1970, when Jimi Hendrix died, I was the only kid in first grade who knew who Jimi Hendrix was. And I always kind of consider myself this little young baby hippie. And so when I hear about people getting canceled, or you know, I'm gonna go after your advertisers. I love the fact that we can have a direct connection with our audience. And so when they say that's it, we're gonna get you cancelled. I'm like, well have fun with that, because I've got X amount of listeners and you're gonna have to go to each and every one of them and they get to pick how valuable the show is. I just watched a YouTube video there's a really phenomenal blues guitarist named Joe Bonamassa and Joe tours nonstop, and has lots of money, because his tickets are not cheap because he's Joe Bonamassa. But I was watching this video, he collects guitars. And if I remember, he paid $150,000 for a guitar. And I was like, what? Well, a Joe has the money and be growing up, he had some guy on his wall and a poster. And that guitar is the guitar in the poster. So to Joe that has a ton of emotional value to it. And he's got 150,000. And to him, it was like, oh, it's well worth it to have that guitar. And so when you let your audience pick, you know, you might be thinking, well, I'll be lucky if I get, you know, five bucks. And then you're gonna have somebody goes, well, here's 50, because you gave them value that they couldn't get anyplace else. So that's one of those things that I was like, Oh, this could be, it could be huge. And I remember when I first started podcasting, in 2005, I uploaded a file, and I saw it come back down on my computer. And I was like, oh, wait a minute, this could be really, really huge. And I kind of have that same feeling about podcasting. 2.0. My worry is that much like tick tock taking a bite out of the advertising space, if more people start to use this, I can see where eventually, advertisers are going to start kind of like ganging up on the little guy. And we'll see, but I love it. And they're branching into music and things like that now, but it's, it's got a huge potential, I just want to see it get easier. And you know, a couple more years, we'll be there probably. Matt Cundill  41:31 So if I wanted to start doing that, tell me about the app you use to send SATs. And by the way, thank you, you have set SATs to me before when you've listened to an episode that you like, you've done it two ways you sent me some sat Satoshis directly. And as well, you've streamed some progressively towards me as you listen to the show. So there's a few ways to send it to people. But I love the fact that you do send me a little something. So What app are you using to do that? Dave Jackson  41:59 Yeah, so behind the scenes, there's a service called Albie, you can get it at get albea.com. And it's weird as much as podcasting. 2.0 tries to be decentralized. We're all kind of using this one service, which is kind of like UI. But what I love is if I wanted to right now, I could go to true fans, because it's easy to fill your wallet there, fill up my my Albea wallet, which is tied to the app I use to listen which is called cast ematic. And I can go in and say Oh, this show and it actually shows you what you're paying per hour. So it's like, oh, I should give this guy at least you know, a buck an hour holy cow, if we could get 10% of their audience to do this, or two bucks an hour or five bucks an hour. Again, depending on what you're doing. Maybe you want to pay minimum wage to $15 an hour. It's there in what I love is when somebody says something, and I'm not driving. And I'm like, Oh, that was amazing. I can go over and there are these things called booths. And I can there's people are getting into all these numerology is like 1701 is a Star Trek boost and 7777 is a striper boost. So all fun ways to do this. And I was just researching how to kind of tie in SMS good old text messaging into a podcast. And right now there's a service called slick text. It's about 30 bucks a month. And I was like, Well wait a minute, we kind of already have messaging with our audience in podcasting. 2.0 It's called a boosted gram. And the beautiful thing is people can pay you, you know, as little or as much as they want to send you a message. It's a message with a value amount to it. So I'm like that's already here in podcasting. 2.0 I'm over here trying to figure out how to, you know, work all this numbers and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, You know what, we kind of already have this and it's, it's free. Matt Cundill  43:42 Yeah, I heard James Cridland referred to it as fairground tokens. I know it sounds like minimal, but that's what they are. And they're effective. Did you send me 2112? Yes. You sent me a little rush. Yeah, I Dave Jackson  43:56 sent you a rush. Yes. You know, I'm Matt Cundill  43:57 a huge rush fan. Dave Jackson  43:58 I was Yeah. How can you not be? Matt Cundill  44:01 I've sent 5150 before. Not everybody gets that one. That's Dave Jackson  44:06 a Van Halen one and or if you know why Van Halen called their album 5150. It is the police call for someone who is not mentally balanced. That's right. Matt Cundill  44:15 I sent that to James Cridland. Sent it to him a few times. He didn't quite get it. Yeah. Hey, Dave, thank you so much for doing this. I really, really appreciate it. But just before you go, I just want you to list some of the podcasts where we can find you. I feel like I can find you on Saturday mornings. You're you're live on my phone and on the internet. You got the podcast rodeo show. You're starting a new podcast about podcast websites. What else do you have? Dave Jackson  44:41 I guess my flagship show is the School of podcasting. But yeah, you mentioned ask the podcast coach. And the problem is and somebody asked me this, they're like, Dude, you have way too many podcasts. Is there any like one place I can go to see them all. And so I bought the domain power of podcasting.com which is the only time I will use a link tree type website. That's the only time to use it's like here's all my stuff so you can see all my podcasts. I got my book over there. There's consulting. It's all there in one place power of podcasting.com. Matt Cundill  45:08 Dave is always thank you very much for joining us. Really, really appreciate it. Dave Jackson  45:12 Thanks so much, buddy. Appreciate it. Tara Sands (Voiceover)  45:14 The Sound Off Podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski. Edited by Chloe Emond-Lane. Social media by Aidan Glassey. Another great creation from the Soundoff Media Company. There's always more at soundoffpodcast.com

Mark Asquith is the British Podcast Guy. He is also the co-founder of Captivate.fm which was purchased by Global in December of 2021. Mark has been Helping podcasters to grow their audience. What I really like about Mark is his thinking when it comes to monetization and growing your audience; he is not beholden to things podcasters hold sacred. In this episode he shares insights from over a decade of experience in podcasting. He discussed the founding of Captivate to provide superior customer service and problem-solving for podcasters. Asquith emphasized understanding diverse revenue streams beyond just sponsorships. He challenged the sole focus on monetization and viewed podcasting also as a platform for enjoyment, explored the evolution of podcasting and adaptation to changes, and analyzed the benefits of displaying podcast metrics like downloads transparently while acknowledging individual decision-making based on goals. Mark also discussed work-life balance, releasing episodes when competition is lower, and the support of his team across time zones. You might remember we had Danny Brown from Captivate.fm on our show last year. Now Danny and Mark have combined to start a new podcast called "In & Around. Podcasting" which will higlhight how podcasting is for everyone. While there are other shows for the enthusiasts, the techies, the business side... In & Around Podcasting will be for podcasters by podcasters. You can learn more about the show here - and do follow or subscribe. We recorded this on video because video is all the rage don't ya know. I love how Mark's additional interests are nearby... namely Star Wars and Golf. TRANSCRIPTION Tara Sands (Voiceover)  00:02 The sound off podcast. The show about podcast and broadcast... starts now. Matt Cundill  00:13 Mark Asquith is someone I've wanted to speak to for a while. I don't have the time to listen to every podcast about podcasting every week. But his is one that I do. There are things he suggests when it comes to making decisions that I really like. Often he's gonna say things like, think of it this way, or what have you considered it from this approach? And he does it in simple ways that make me say, Well, that just makes sense. Why don't I think of these things? If you're looking to start a podcast, I suggest you take a look at a podcast host like captivate.fm. They're always innovating all the time. And as well. They've got great support. Danny Brown, who's been on this podcast before, lives in the Huntsville Ontario area and is always eager to help out if you can understand him through that wonderful Scottish accent. Mark has a new podcast out by the way after sunsetting the old one you can connect with him and that show in the show notes of this episode. And now Mark Asquith joins me from the very picturesque Holmfirth, England. Mark, what did you do before Captivate? Mark Asquith  01:19 Oh, I've been in podcasting for like 12 years, nearly 1112 years now. It feels like there is no before. Well, I've done a lot of things actually. So I've been jobless for 21 years now. So after I quit my sort of admin job, I became a freelance digital trainer. So I worked with things like the Ministry of Defense worked with people like blue chip companies and banks in the UK and all aspects of the military, actually Air Force Navy. And then started learning could create a digital agency scaled that and then got into podcasting alongside that about 10 years ago, 11 years ago, which is crazy. And then pretty much did podcasting full time since then, actually created podcast websites productivity, Rebel base media, the podcast design studio, we used to have a recording studio obviously Captivate as well now captivates the main thing since acquisition. So yeah, it's been quite the journey. Matt Cundill  02:12 So why did you want to get involved with Captivate and podcast hosting specifically? Mark Asquith  02:16 I've been around so long, when I first started, there was like two podcasters, maybe three. And they're just, they're all friends. I can say this. I know Robert, Todd, and halben. And Kevin, everyone really well, that just, they weren't doing what I needed them to do. When we got into podcasting. No one was doing customer service, no one was taking the approach of a start up in podcasting, no one was taking the approach of an agency and podcasting, no one was given the white glove service, it was just these are the only platform so you sort of got to just use them. When we came in were podcast websites, we were very design lead very brand lead very experienced lead. And that got us a name really, really quickly. Like we we grew really quickly with podcast websites. And we did hosting them. So we've been doing that we've been doing podcast host in analytics for 11 years. 10 years, sorry for podcast websites. And that served a very specific part of podcasting. And then people would come to us and say, Look, we don't need the other stuff that you do with podcast websites. But we want the experience we want you guys. We've seen you speak and we speak all over the world. We have done, you know, we spoke the first Podcast Movement, second Podcast Movement, third Podcast Movement, first pod fest, and so on. And people wanted what we did, but they only needed the hosting bit, which is why Captivate was born. So you know, again, we've been doing that a while. It's a funny thing, really. There's been a lot of companies getting into podcasts in the last five years, maybe the last four years. Because the saw the boom in revenue coming through the industry, like we were in that way before that. It's funny, we didn't really get into podcasting because we wanted to get into podcasts in the industry. We're going into podcasting because we're podcasters, which is quite interesting. Matt Cundill  03:48 Yeah, you want to solve a few problems. And one of the big questions I see that people ask is, oh, well, which podcast host should I use? And the answer is, well, what problems do you need solved, and then people stop, they don't really know which one to do. And they're really left with a bunch of ubiquitous choices. Mark Asquith  04:08 Podcasting is boring, let's be honest. It's easy. But the podcasting part is easy. What happened was it was made to look difficult. And people were getting charged for things that they shouldn't get charged for, like storage, like storage is nothing It doesn't cost anything these days. We know that. So what happened was it's it's the hosting part is very simple. And we went straight at that. We said, Look, we can do the hosting bit, that's fine. That's no problem. Like, whatever you need. The hosting shouldn't be the thing that sells your hosting platform. And that's sort of like, you know, any plumber can do the plumbing part because they're qualified to a standard and the standards the baseline, the standards, not the exception or the USP, the standards the baseline, so any plumber can do the plumbing. The reason people choose plumbers is because different specialties, different areas of focus, different experiences. Some people are great when it comes to turning up on time. Some people aren't great, some people are great with time Some people aren't so great with comps, we never buy things, these their software's easier. We don't buy things because we need the software, we buy things because we want everything that is around the software. And that's why like we captivate, that's why at the minute, we don't have a free plan, we've got no interest in being a free podcast hosting platform, we don't want a $5 plan, we don't want to $3 plan, because the hosting aspect is easy, and we don't want to work with everyone. So instead, what we do is, we'll say, look, we'll be really transparent with what it costs us, you know, you only pay for bandwidth, which is the thing that it costs us, you know, bandwidth is what hosting companies pay for, for the most part, and the mission was very clear, you know, we will build things that will either save you time, while that will save you money, or that will make you money, right? That's the only they're the only things that we do. So yeah, with Captivate, you're not necessarily choosing a hosting platform. And we I often say to people go somewhere else go to go to Spotify for podcasters, go to Buzzsprout. But if you want free, and, you know, relatively average, you know, there are other options. But the corner of the podcasting space that we occupy is if you if you just if you identify as being a serious podcaster doesn't matter whether you're a veteran, whether you're new, if you just set this up, you know, I'm serious about this, I'm actually going to make something of it, I'm going to put everything I can into it. And Captivate is probably the best choice mainly because the feature set that we've built is for the serious podcaster it's not quick, it's not simple. As its core, it is quick to use. It's simple to use, but it's not. That's not the thing that sells Captivate, it's the usefulness, the thoughtfulness of it, and the way that it will genuinely help you to grow. And you've I mean, you've only got to look around on you know, the trust pilots and the Facebook groups. It was there, because that's what I do. I've got countless podcasts. So I will be podcasting anywhere regardless of Captivate. And so Captivate has been built for the busy person, you know, I'm busy running Captivate, I can't spend time publishing my podcast, I've got better things to do. So yeah, it's a very interesting position that we occupy in this in the market. And I Matt Cundill  07:00 like what you said about time and money, because it seems that every time there's an announcement, at Captivate, you're doing one of two things, you're going to save me some time, or you're going to find a way to get me a little money or make it so I can acquire a little more money. And one of the things I've noticed with with the updates is that you understand that it doesn't need to be like one big pile of money. There's many small ways to make money. And people say, Well, how do I make money in podcasts? And I say, well, there's probably nearly 100 different ways to do it. So how do you make decisions on on which features you want to put in? And what can you tell podcasters about those small piles of money they can be accumulating? Mark Asquith  07:37 There's actually one way to make money in podcasts and that sell something. The decision is what you sell. And it's do you sell your audience? Do you sell access? Do you sell something else? That's it, you sell your audience, you get sponsors, if you sell access, you get members, people that will pay you for access to things with us early access, whether it's Windows access, whether it's bonus content, or you sell something else. So that might be goodwill, people tipping you that might be digital products and services. There's a lot going around on LinkedIn at the minute from people that caught him revolutionary ways. So there was one the other day you know, revolution way to make money from your podcast is sell a digital product that has been going around since 2005. Five, nothing revolutionary about that. If you cast your mind back to to anything in media, podcasting is media. And the way that media works is you either sell the movie, because the theaters exist and people buy a ticket to it. Or you sell it to a TV syndication. Or you sell merchandise off the back of it, you go and buy something you ought to go and buy a Luke Skywalker or an emperor. And there's nothing revolutionary about podcasts and the way to monetize it. But what you mentioned there is really, really key. It's the diversification it's the eggs in baskets you you can get sponsors because you can but actually, instead of just getting sponsors, why not diversify and you know, create a membership. So something using Captivate for example, sell some bonus access, sell some early access and windowed content, ask people for tips listener support, people want to support the favorite podcasters sell some merchandise, whatever that might be. And diversification is key. And that's why when you look at the Captivate earnings dashboard, we're just we're just working on another monetization option at the minute but the pies split in the earnings dashboard. You know, here's X amount that you've earned from sponsorships Y amount that you've earned from tips and from memberships and so on and so forth. And that builds up this pie, which pays for the hosting or it pays for the mortgage or it pays for the lifestyle, whatever you know, however big you want to get with it. So it's sort of fascinating to me that people are still surprised that they should be diversifying because you're in business you diversify. Of course you do. You've got different types of customers, different levels of customers, different products if you're a store. There's nothing surprising about it. It's just that because podcasting is always overlaid with that air of hobby, which is not a problem like the vast majority of podcasters are hobbyists and rightly so. The problem that that tends to bring is that their mind instead of a hobby, like, I love golf, I'm not going to go out and think, right, that's it. I'm playing golf today, how much am I gonna make? I'm gonna go out and play golf course I love golf. I'm not even thinking about what I'm going to make. So people get into podcasting because they want to talk about Batman or Star Wars or whatever. And yet, what happens is that people then start to say, I don't know why this has happened. People then say, well, you're going to monetize. And it's wild, because it's so many people think of that first. I'm not gonna watch Star Wars, which is my hobby, because I want to monetize watching Star Wars, I'm not going to play golf, because I want to monetize golf, I'm not going to go and take some photos from our cameras, I want to monetize my photography, if that happens in the future, cool. But let's be honest, it's a hobby. And there's this weird approach to monetization. I think the key thing is understanding, like you said, those little pots, those bits of diversification, those elements that will allow you to first of all cover your costs, you know, if you could use a serious podcasting platform and everything you need, but you've got it for free, because you're getting enough tips on memberships per month to cover it. That's better than using a free podcasting platform. That gives you far less for your money, and doesn't really allow you to monetize in any meaningful ways or help you to monetize in meaningful ways. So yeah, so podcasting is this weird child of monetization at the minute and it, it amazes me, everybody Matt Cundill  11:19 does talk about that first, but maybe people should be talking about it being a marketing exercise rather than that. And and even if you start your podcast, the first 10 episodes, you're just let's say, We're just having fun, we're doing something, but people are listening to it, it becomes a little bit of a marketing piece more than anything. And I think people say, Well, I'm getting no ROI on my podcast, so I don't think I'm going to be doing it anymore. I said, Well, what if you just took it from your marketing budget? You know, you're gonna blow out on a bus board or a billboard anyway, Mark Asquith  11:50 it depends on who's podcasting. I think this is the other challenge. With podcasting. I don't get any ROI from reading Star Wars books. Do I get ROI from reading Seth Godin books, maybe if I implement what's in there, maybe. And so this is the point is the podcasts have been bundled by tranches of people as being the thing that only they identify with. So what I mean by that is, right, if you're an entrepreneur, podcasts are this thing that will make you six figures, it's absolute rubbish. And the fact of the matter is, entrepreneur. Let's take that tranche. They see podcasting as a content engine. That's cool. But nerd podcasters, you know, going on about d&d and going on about Star Wars, and whatever, they see it as a way to talk about the thing that they love, golf podcasters see that as a bolt on to their YouTube channel or broadcast media wondery global evergreen, there, see this is a p, that they can sell. And that's why the production budgets are. So podcasting is not one thing. And that's the thing. That's the decision that people need to make. And I sort of, I've seen this develop, it was this tiny little seed of a conversation 1015 years ago, that has grown and grown and grown. And the reason the reason I get to that is that if you start your podcast, you got to understand why you're doing it. Like if you're doing it for enjoyment. Don't worry about monetizing it. Who cares whether you're getting any money back, and if you can't carry on with it, don't carry on with it. That's cool. Sometimes I don't get to play golf for like three months. It's cool, fine, I don't quit. I just don't do it. It's cool. It's a marketing thing. How can you expect to get ROI unless you treat it like your treat any other marketing thing if it's a product. Now, when I say a product, if your podcast is the product, and you want to get sponsors, it needs to be really damn good. You can't just copy Entrepreneur on Fire anymore. It's not 2014, you can't do that. Instead, you've got to be as good as global with the news agents. And you've got to be as good as Wonder, we've got to death. You've got to think about it as the product, you've got to be that good, because the levels jumped. If you want to get big sponsors, a great example that is like Jordan Harbinger, one of the originals, one of the best in the business. That's his job is to be a podcaster. And the work he does behind the scenes, because that's his product to get sponsorships for that product is off the charts the work that he does. So it's interesting. That's the first question everyone needs to ask, why are we doing this? And if the answer is something where you will won't be able to put in what that answer requires, if it's marketing, but you can't put marketing work into it. If it's a product, and you can't put work into a podcast like you would into any other product. Like if I'm building a house, if my product is I'm building the house, I can't have three months off, or I can't do it half baked, because that house has been that's got to be the question and then the follow up has got to be Does this answer to why am I podcasting map with what I can put into it because if not, what comes out the other end is not going to match. So one of the things I love Matt Cundill  14:51 is Is Your Podcast, the podcast accelerator, and there are things you say on there that make me rethink What I believe I know to be true. And I don't hear some of these things from other people. So the first thing that made me sort of go Oh, wow, was you took a break. So first off when you took a year and change off, why did you take that break from from your podcast? Mark Asquith  15:16 How she bought Spotify imagined doing 1200? podcast episodes, most of them solar. That's a chunk. It's interesting, because so we had our little girl about three weeks before we took the break, before I took the break. And I was busy with just got acquired by global catalytic got bought by global I was integrated in there with the team with a little girl didn't want to record at six o'clock on a night because she needs feeding. And guess what I came back and the audience was bigger. That's the wild thing. And Matt Cundill  15:48 that was an oh, wow moment for me. I was like, Oh, wow, that happened. Mark Asquith  15:52 So this is the thing, this is the thing that people don't get right. It's cool. If I'm a weekly show, and this wouldn't this wouldn't work as well. I don't think for like a production company doing a podcast. So globally, it wouldn't work for them doing like the news agents, maybe maybe for them, but not for, say a wondery Unless it was a seasonal approach. And it was designed like this, right? The reason for that is that I just kept marketing. My Content Strategy was really clear. Someone asked me a question, I record an answer. People don't stop asking questions, just because I haven't recorded answers anymore. I keep asking the same questions. So I just send them to the old episodes. And the podcasts accelerate for me was a way for me to do something in the podcasting industry, because I'm very vocal about it. And a way to help people to stop pent spending money on bad courses that end in a seven, you don't have to buy that course, you have to buy this bloody thing from this entrepreneur guru, like, they're usually rubbish. And my goal was just, let's just record everything that I know for free, because I don't need to make the money from this product. So I'd rather everyone gets what they want from it the way it works. For me, the way I benefit from it is that every now and again, someone will go, that person resonates with me, I'll go and check out Captivate and that might be wanting 10 Wanting 51 In three, who knows? When that's the point of it. But that question, why did I start this podcast? Because I've done it for a long, long time. And I've got a marketing branding and product background. And guess what a podcast is a product that needs branding and marketing, and no of this. So it was just a way for me to help the industry. And then we've got someone else Danny and I've got someone else. I'm actually going to stop the podcast accelerator next week as we record this. And then we've got another project replacing it which is, is going to be really good. Because it evolves, things evolve. You know, I'm tired of talking on my own. I've done that for 1200 Odd episodes. Now I'm talking with someone else and other people. It's evolution, everything's evolution, you know, everything changes, just like the industry has changed around us. Just like podcasting has gone from this small, little cottage industry with two or three suppliers. And everyone being the hobbyist into this multimedia industry that's striving for IP, and striving for audience share and market share and share of ear. We can evolve we're allowed to evolve as podcasters. There's nothing wrong with that. And Matt Cundill  18:06 so one of the big things that I hear a lot is the importance of the RSS feed. And how dare you do a whole episode where you suggest that maybe it can go away, and we'll all be okay. And this happens in radio, North American radio specifically, where we're beholden to these things and do them over and over and over again, 10 in a row and no commercials and lease commercials and the most music and it sounds the same as it ever did. And podcasting after a while just marries itself to an RSS feed. So tell me about your thoughts about the RSS feed and why we shouldn't necessarily be married to it. Mark Asquith  18:43 The RSS feed is an open standard that allows anyone at all to access the content within that feed and anyone to create a feed which can be syndicated to things like an application such as Apple podcasts that will read that RSS feed might started out as a blog sort of scenario, using XML files, to digest information and ping it through to something like Thunderbird or whatever back in the day. Podcasting was bolted on to that with all enclosure tags and whatever else and that's why it works. It's great and it's open. It's an open ecosystem. The problem is open ecosystems are very difficult to make money from look at WordPress, you can make money from WordPress, but WordPress makes money for people that close the ecosystem and sell their services around it an agency a hosting company, whatever. Okay. So the way that RSS feed RSS feeds have evolved and I wrote this in an article in 2018 and got battered by some of the original experts that will like this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. This is rubbish it will never happen. Guess what happened like six months later. Someone like Spotify comes in there don't need RSS it's that simple. All right. They host content there read content display content to users. Why do you need an RSS feed for that? You don't you don't just like YouTube? Guess what? YouTube doesn't need an RSS feed to host videos Same thing, right and upload something to Spotify. When it goes in Spotify, that's the mechanism for getting it out to other places. It can be an RSS feed, it can be an API, whatever it could be a JSON file, it could have 1000 ways to do it. It just so happens that podcasting users and used RSS, RSS is notoriously difficult to extend because it's essentially a two way marketplace RSS feed. So we want these brand new features like the ones that are featured in podcasting, two point Earth, things like comments, things like funding tags, you know, whatever. But the marketplace theory kicks in because as much as an RSS feed as much as a user like URI, as a podcaster would say, well, we want these features and as much as when we're very involved in podcasting 2.0. But as much as we want those features to exist, the theory of the marketplace requires overcast to want to honor it, Apple to want to honor it, Spotify to want to honor it. Now, Apple have started to do that a little bit with things like the transcripts, it's taken a while will they do anything else who knows, overcast to a degree good pod to a degree Pocket Cast To a degree, but guess what? They're all to a degree. So standardization becomes difficult. Now, if you then think about right, I'm Daniel et, I run Spotify. My shareholders are kicking me. I've got to make some money through podcasting. I want to add comments. Do we want to extend RSS? I'll just build a comments feature in Spotify. Yeah, go on. That'll be easy, because it's just our team. We've got to do it. What about if you want to monetize through ads, but we only want to monetize on Spotify because guess what, we want people to listen to Spotify more, because time in app is one big key metric that we measure, well, we'll just do it, we don't need to do it by our RSS. And that's the point is that it should remain RSS should remain. But now it's just one facet of how a podcast could technically be delivered. And guess what you can log into Apple podcasts connect today, right now and submit a podcast without an RSS feed? You can then you can upload it directly to Apple. Is that right? Is that wrong? Does that support open podcasting? No. But that's just the world. Life is not fair. It's difficult for all these cool open things in all these ideologies to stand the test of time. Because money gets involved. Money gets involved. So I'm an advertiser. All right, I want to go and spend a million pound over this quarter and say, Look, I want to run X amount of impressions on X amount of shows. I want to target this genre, this category of podcast. But I also want more data than just downloads and impressions. And I don't want to give you a coupon code, I don't want have to measure click through rate, because we know that that's super low. But impressions are not going to get my boss to sign off the next million quid at the end of next quarter. So where am I gonna go? Where does the million quid go? Does it go somewhere that can measure more than just to download via RSS? Or does it go to like the open ether ecosystem? That just will say, Well, you got X amount of impressions, and we know people downloaded it, but we don't have to listen to it. So this is the inherent challenge. There's this sort of dichotomy of we want podcasting to stay open, but yet we want more money to flow through it. And then that doesn't always rub up against each other correctly, you sort of get, it's not that fit. It's not the 100% fit is sort of an overlap, you know, so it's a very challenging turbulent time for RSS, but it will persist. It will grow podcasting, 2.0 will continue, podcasting will continue to diverge, and continue to converge at relevant places. You know, it's going to be like this old DNA strand. So yeah, again, fascinating times. Yeah, I Matt Cundill  23:37 mean, YouTube makes this big jump, it's like, Okay, we're gonna be able to take this stuff in, but at the same time, it's kind of an abandonment of RSS, because you're gonna put videos now on YouTube. And by the way, this Google podcast app is going away. Well, Mark Asquith  23:51 why do they do that? Think about that. Think about this. Okay. So you get the RSS feed. Ingestion from YouTube, is just a way to get podcasts in initially. They don't necessarily respect edits to that podcast, if I change the title, it won't push through. As I recall, if I change the file, it won't push through, forget my audio wrong. But why? Why would they ingest RSS if they're not going to do it properly? Because there's supply there, YouTube as a pile of demand from advertisers. We need eyeballs, we need ears, we need content that other people can stick around and watch. So let's make a way to ingest RSS content, get it onto YouTube just wants just ingest that video once, then we don't sort of care about it. And guess what we've got supply to meet that demand, we can feed more to the advertisers. And the way that YouTube works is you can theoretically have dynamically inserted adverts in there. Because guess what they want to do the dynamic insertion. That's their pocket of money. Spotify is doing their pocket of money, and everyone's doing their pocket of money. You know, like that's not a surprise. I can shop at Walmart Can you all go and shop at Aldi I can shop at Tesco via I can shop at wherever I want all the same gear. But Tesco is making its pot of money Walmart's making this pot of money Sainsbury's, Waitrose, whatever. So it's none of this is new. You know, it's just people get a little annoyed that it's in podcasting, because podcasting is my cute little thing that talks about Star Wars. Why are you getting involved with your big buildings and your money is just going through his teenage years. So it Matt Cundill  25:28 wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if Apple decided that we had to upload directly to them and Spotify decided to do the same? And would that be the worst thing in the world? Mark Asquith  25:35 I mean, it's a funny scenario, isn't it? If you're apple, and you do it, and you've supported podcasting since 105, you're going to annoy all your hosts and incumbents, you know, everyone's going to walk away from you. But also, then you've got to maintain it, you've got to push it forward. And there are 4 million podcasts, whatever, how many active? They've all got to change like that, that won't happen? Certainly not overnight, would it be the worst thing in the world, it would be difficult for advertisers to be able to buy inventory, it would be difficult for advertisers to really understand the supply, genuine supply of content, measurement would be fractured, because prefix companies would become essentially the new analytic, the only analytics that anyone would care about because they want to aggregate all the data in place at the hosting companies. But you would theoretically have to log into every single outlet to get your analytics data. And so it becomes the logistical challenges around, obviously, the ethical questions as well around the fact that, you know, if I log into log into Apple, and look at my analytics, maybe Spotify is a better example. I'm logged into Spotify to listen. So it's got my name, it's got my location, it's got my data, it's got what, you know, how do I opt out potentially have any of that data? If it would, if it if that data was ever to pass to advertisers? How do I opt out of that? It's fraught with a GDPR risk questions? Would it be the end of the world? It probably would for a lot of hosting companies. Yeah, I think a lot of people would worry about it. The consumer wouldn't own a different publisher. It'd be a pain in the neck, you'd have to upload to Spotify or Apple or to Apple. And then someone will create a tool that syndicates them all suddenly about with a hosting company. So it's, you know, it's Tara Sands (Voiceover)  27:18 transcription of the sound off podcast is powered by the podcast, Super Friends, five podcast producers who get together to discuss podcasting, sharpen your podcast and creation skills by following the show on the sound off podcast, YouTube or Facebook page. Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  27:36 This podcast supports podcasting 2.0, so feel free to send us a boost. If you're listening on a new podcast app, find your new app now at podcasting, two point org slash apps. That's podcasting. Two point org slash apps, Matt Cundill  27:51 gatekeeping. And podcasting, there's been a lot of attempts to come in, who are the gatekeepers these days? And does it exist? Everyone's Mark Asquith  27:58 a bit of a gatekeeper. And you sort of get the, I call this the Anakin Skywalker problem. You don't want to become Spotify, because they're a gatekeeper. You know, you got to log in, you got to use anchor, you got to use Spotify for podcasters. And we're gonna do our thing in podcasting. And we're going to walled garden it and become this gatekeeper. But what happens then is that you get all the people that are advocating for open podcasts and say, well, it's not a podcast, if it's on YouTube. Now, wait a second that you gatekeeping right, you sort of become the thing that you said you weren't going to become. And you sort of say, well, you can't we don't want you say, a Spotify or whoever coming in, and sort of telling the open ecosystem what's what or taking market share or doing things that we don't like, but then we say things to put people off like you shouldn't use anchor back in the day. Why not like that sort of Yeah, I don't really want people to use anchor because it's just it will just wasn't stunning. But it got a lot of people getting into podcasting because they could do it on their phone. They didn't really need to be tech nerds that eventually stuck to it that moved to someone like a captive it because they became more serious. That's like saying, Don't give my little girl a golf club at age three. In fact, leave the golf club until she turns pro, you know, how can that possibly work? So it's this year, you sort of become the thing that you're vowed never to become when you start putting these absolutes in place. And I think that the most recent version of that has been the YouTube thing. Is it a podcast? If it's not a nude if it's on YouTube, so who cares? Who cares? If my mum comes up to me, Schleiermacher listen, I listen to your podcast on YouTube. The last thing I'm going to do is go mum got to stop you there. It's not technically a podcast is it? I'm gonna go Oh, my word. Thank you so much. What did you think? Did you enjoy that? Tell your friends. Who cares? I get it and each because he's born from fear of RSS going away and it won't go away. It won't go away. So it's yeah, the gatekeeping things challenging. It's like I say I call it the Anakin Skywalker problem. If you're not careful, you become the thing that you vowed to destroy. And, yeah, I see that a lot. Tell Matt Cundill  30:04 me about podcasting. 2.0 what excites you about it? And what should even the hobbyist podcaster be excited about podcasting? 2.0 and I will preface this just by saying that it's tough to explain to people what it is. Because people were like, well, I'd like a podcast host with podcasting. 2.0 And you'd have to say, what's a lot of different small fun things? Mark Asquith  30:24 Oh, man, that's one of the funniest things like there was some hosting companies, when podcasting 2.0 first became an initiative that put like, the most basic implementation of the most basic features, and then just put, you know, podcast 2.0 hosts, and it will became a marketing thing, there are hosting companies that do that with everything, they'll do, like 30% of a feature, it'll be just about average. And then they'll put it on a feature list. And, you know, we know their and their average. And podcasting 2.0 is a great example of that, again, and exemplification of that kind of approach, because podcasting 2.0 is a very nascent progressive initiative developed by Adam curry and by Dave that will allow RSS to extend, alright, so the way to think about this is if you've got, let's say that I've got a go out, okay, and I buy a car, and the cows, the RSS feed, and it's an old ish car. It's a nice car, a classic car, but it is a nice car. And it's a classic car. But I want to add apple carplay to it. Well, I can't do that. Because guess what, it's an old car, it doesn't have it. So I'll go on Amazon, and buy like an Amazon Echo automotive, you know, the little automotive add on that you can go and buy that and I plug it in, boom, a feature has been added. And I go and buy like a car play adapter, I can plug my phone and guess what a feature has been added. And then I go ahead and I think to myself, you know, I won't mind changing the wheels on this a feature has been added. I want to add some cameras, some parking sensors, a feature a feature. And that box, that car, the RSS feed, has had features added to it little bolt on one feature. And that is podcasting. 2.0. It's an initiative by a range of people, all of the major hosting companies, by some individual thought leaders and thinkers. So people like Daniel J. Lewis, James Canadaland, some city, Adam and Dave, and so on, so forth, John Spurlock, and we all collaborate. And we said, here's some ideas. Let's get them through. And then back to rssb. Like this marketplace scenario, what we do is we'll say right, we're going to implement in the next phase, these three features, so let's set the lock tag, the transcript tag and the funding tag, right. That's the next release from podcasting. 2.0. So there will be there'll be ratified there will be agreed upon in terms of the specification, and then a hosting company like Captivate will go ahead, and they'll say, right, in order for that, to work, less set of funding tags are a great example, in order for a funding feature to appear in, say, overcast or good pod. So in order for that to be a button to press that takes you off to the fund in place for that podcast, come right back, there has to be a place where the user can put that link in and type it in or if it's something like Captivate will automatically fill it in from your your membership, your tip, and there has to be a way to get that in. And then when the RSS feed is created, it has to appear. And so that two way street occurs. So we will implement the funding tag, for example, we will develop an interface for you as a podcaster or Captivate user will type in okay as my funding link or, you know, automatically affiliate in, you'll save your podcast will generate the RSS feed, it's got the funding tag in which is a podcasting 2.0 feature, an app that will then support it on the other side will read that tag and show a button saying support this podcast by giving him money. And podcasting. 2.0 is just that it's an initiative, a slow burn, well thought out initiative of new features that can be brought to the open ecosystem that hosting companies podcasters and listening apps can choose to support and the more times each of those three stakeholders support a feature, the more adoption it Yes. So it's a very interesting concept and it works and it's working. It could be quicker. But it's a marketplace marketplace to take forever to grow, you know, to anything that's two sided takes forever to grow. So yeah, it's great man we love we love been involved in it and captivate is up there as one of the most supportive hosts. I think we've got some of the highest number of supported features out of any host as well. There were blueberry and a couple of others. So yeah, a lot of good people doing good work. Yeah, I Matt Cundill  34:34 get quite excited with all the things that you do to the point where people are like, well, I need a new podcasting host. I will just go look at Captivate because they've got new things coming you'll always be at the forefront of things that are new that you might like, and if worst case scenario, you can practice you're Scottish and Danny Brown can help you out in the in the support area. I Mark Asquith  34:54 don't know what to say most of the time. So I couldn't comment on that because all I know is awake. So those these job archiving community kept with many more as we have to write everything. I don't know, he says Matt Cundill  35:03 a lot of the transcription services and then he found one and then that service went away. And now we're still looking for a transcription service that he can work with. Mark Asquith  35:10 Ironically, we were testing this, this is sort of the Captivate mantra as well as another unseen mantra that a man telling you about. AI is a great point, and the transcript service. Okay, so everyone's getting into our AI for podcasting out there. And it's sort of like it's a bit boring. It is very boring. In it dull, but serious podcasters. Like, they're going to really want the titles generated from them if they're serious. Yeah, okay, maybe it gets his like eight out of 10 of the way there. And I'll just thought I'll make it better myself. Okay. So anyway, bottom line is this. All the hosts are doing AI, Captivate will have to do some AI. But one of our approaches is, with everything. If we're not the first to do something which we often integrate a guest book in dynamic shownotes, the way that we developed things like the shortcodes, and the blocks, and every all the analytics stuff that we did, if we're not the first to do something, when we do it, we will take what's been done, and actually think about it, instead of just ticking a box on a future list in a leapfrog most of what other people do. So we're doing that with AI at the minute and transcripts are a big part of that. So we've got some really unique features coming out. I don't really want to do it, because AI is just not sure it's right. For the serious podcast a book, we will do it because we can make it really good. The reason I got to that is because we're testing transcriptions on Danny. Because the logic is, if it gets him right, it can probably get most of us, right, because he's wildly Scottish. But yeah, the AI things interesting, isn't it? A lot going on with that other minute, Matt Cundill  36:36 I think you summed it up, the right way to use it is you can use it a bit, but then top it up with yourself. Because if you let it do all the work for you, you're gonna get something incredibly average. And if the goal is average, you're gonna you'll achieve that every single time. I think people also know when something is being generated in an AI formulas and nothing against you know, Rob Greenlee. But I know for instance, when he posts the highlights of his show, it is AI generated, it's long and detailed, I'm getting something from it, he's getting something from it. I think that's great, fantastic. But if I need to get to the specifics of why somebody really truly needs to listen to this particular episode, I'm going to have to write to my passion here about why you and this is largely a broadcast audience who are moving over into the on demand audio space, why you need to listen to mark from England, talking about podcasting, I'm going to really need to sell and explain that to an audience. So I'm AI is not gonna be able to do that for me. Mark Asquith  37:33 Yeah, I agree. And it does, I will say gets you better show notes. Because, like, you're gonna write a paragraph, because it's hard, isn't it, the AI will get you more detail as a follow up to the original paragraph or two that you and I would do. So I don't disagree with the use of it. What I what I don't like about it is, and this is generally my bugbear with hosting companies generally, is that they'll just do it without thinking they'll stick it in to put it on a feature set so that when someone's comparing hosts, it just says I you know, we start with the host, you know, let's do a basic, pretty boring implementation of to podcasting 2.0 features, then just put it on the feature list so that when someone's comparing, they just get it and it's you. This is why we set Captivate up to be so specifically targeted at one corner of the market, we don't want every podcaster. So we don't have to rush these things out. And we don't have to say, Oh, my word, this host has put a tick box there, we've got to put a tick box there as well. Otherwise, we're going to lose the mass people, it becomes a sort of race to the bottom. And I think AI is a great example of that right now is that you can implement things just because people think they should be implemented. But unless he's thoughtful, you almost end up with this feature set that is just average. Everything's just average about it. Everything's just Oh, and just a nightlight, you know what you got? Let you get your bathroom done and the tail ends, all right, but just the gaps are just a bit wonky. And you don't notice it to start with. Keep going to get a showering tiles kill him in the you know, it's another one and another one. And eventually I need to solve the bathroom out here. So it's you end up with this range of average, because you race into the bottom to just get as many people I think it's a bit of an analogy for getting listeners as well. You know, I see people chasing downloads versus chasing listeners. We're all in the game of marketing and sales. We're all selling our product. And if our product is a podcast, what are we actually trying to acquire? Well, we're trying to acquire downloads but we're trying to acquire downloads by proxy of genuine listeners, if I just want to get downloads, I just some dodgy downloads like I used to be able to do by Twitter bombing or whatever back in the day. But I don't want people because if you say go and do this thing, I want people to do it because then if a sponsor is paying me to say that if I get a million downloads but only 30,000 people I'm getting paid for a million impressions but the ROI for the advertiser is going to be so small because they're not genuine people or they're transient and you know they're not coming back for The next episode that when it comes to renewing with a sponsor, the sponsor will that will where I know we got the impressions, but really what did we get? Now that's the that's been the changing landscape, the hosts have moved in terms of the way that they're marketing. And podcasters are not thinking in terms of just downloads anymore like they were five years ago. So yeah, a bit of a bit of a digression. But I do think it's all related in podcasting. you Matt Cundill  40:22 disclose which podcast prefixes you have in your show, you actually kindly link to the privacy. One of the ones that I've recently added is mp3. You mentioned John Spurlock earlier. And when people ask me about it, or if I ask them if they're interested, they get very coy. A lot of people don't want the number of downloads of their show made public or displayed for all to see. So what's the upside of doing it? Mark Asquith  40:48 I don't think there is one. I know that sounds really completely contrary to everything that I support, because I use mp3. And I think it's great. An mp3 is a prefix, which will measure a download, it will pass through mp3 As a user request your file and trigger that as a download. Like it doesn't a hosting platform. But it means that you can display that data publicly. And this is I love it. And I love John McGraw. I've got an email from him that I need to reply to, uh, you know, we we talk a lot, will this tool become mass market? And I'm not sure, because it is private data for a lot of people that if for example, let's say that I am a content marketer that primarily uses my podcast as a marketing tool for some courses, some in person events, and merchandise. You know, whatever a sponsor comes to me and said, Look, we don't normally sponsor podcasts, we want to sponsor yours. Can you tell me about your brand, what they're sponsoring is the podcast, alright? If I was to go and look at op three, because it's open, and I was the advertising, I go and look at it about how Wait a second, we only have 500 downloads per episode. Very binary data, it's this number. That's it, there's no doubt in it. It's just that number. What's not being taken into account is the quality of those people behind that. The engagement that I get from them, the way that they're my channel shift between my email list, my website, my YouTube, my Tik Tok my Instagram. What it wouldn't take into account is repeat purchases of my own branded gear in person events that they attend, because they're part of my ecosystem. So right back to the beginning, you know, what type of podcast Do you want to be? If you're trying to sell sponsorship, I get why people wouldn't want to do it because I know a podcaster that probably gets 300 downloads per episode and make six figures. And I mean, above six figures per year, from sponsorship, one episode a week, three figure downloads, and I'm talking like mid three figures. Not like 999, it's like, you know, 450 the reason that they make so much money is because quite literally, they have every single person in their addressable market listening to their podcast, their market is so tight, it's so niche. And the things that can be sold to that market are so high ticket, that to get 450 of them, you've probably got you think about let's say the market sizes, there's only 2000 of you in the world. How many people listen to podcast on a regular basis, let's assume half or 60%, how many people have discovered that shell, let's say half again, the addressable market is probably like 500, and he's got 450 of them. And that's why it's worth that much money. Because one sale equals 10 grand for the person sponsoring. That's why I think things like RP three are great for geeks like us, like I love it, I'll support it, I'll do it all the time, stick it on any show, whatever. But if I'm a course creator, or someone selling merch or whatever, or someone that's in such a tight market, the last thing I want is the marketing company going and looking at that and saying, I don't understand podcasting. I'm treating this lack of display by or a radio by or a TV bi Matt Cundill  43:56 that's not big enough. doesn't measure your passion. It doesn't Mark Asquith  43:59 matter passion, it doesn't measure measure intent, it doesn't measure sentiment it I think it is really important the sentiment of what is someone truly thinking about this host and the way to do that is as we know it is engagement. So yeah, I love all p3 And I love John are just I think it's like everything podcast in 2.0 or value for value or you know, web 3.0 stuff, the ability to monetize, monetize through crypto and the blockchain. It's also early stage. You know, it's RSS in 2005. Matt Cundill  44:29 Your Podcast releases every Thursday 7am Eastern in North America. But you've also said before that Monday is a bad day to release an episode why? Oh, Mark Asquith  44:38 he's got busy, hasn't it but to be fair, I've stopped I'm going to stop that podcast so there's probably probably won't be any more episodes of the podcast accelerate apart from one one saying we're wrapping it up but the content will stay there. It's really good content really deep dive content. But Danny and I do have a new show launching which is more of the same but with a different angle. co hosted more a panel show three or four people per episode. Got lots of really cool segments. And I will drop that out publicly when we're ready for that, which will probably be next week as we record this. I don't know when it's going out. But probably, if you're listening to this after the fourth of March, it will be out into the ether. So look out for it. Matt Cundill  45:15 Why will it not be released on a Monday, it Mark Asquith  45:18 won't be released on the Monday lacks, it just got busy. I do a golf podcast. And everyone releases the golf podcast on a Monday, you know, after the weekend after the tournament, but it's just a lot of people do it on a Monday. And it's one of those things where because of the way that like Spotify is now notifying you apples now notifying you, you just want as little as few things competing with you as possible. I'm not sure there is a better time or not to launch your podcast. I'm sure there's data out there. And I've seen data that will sort of allude to the fact but I don't know, I would like to see a survey that asks podcast listeners how they listened. Because for me, when I get into my car, right? I look at Spotify. Sorry for listening on Spotify, but is built into my car, I'm sorry, it's just the easiest way. I get into the car with the intent of listening to the podcast that I'm in the mood for. I don't go in there and look at the you know, what's new list down the list I'm sure other people do. But I would just be really curious. Please, someone run a survey on listeners like Tom Webster, just doing a survey, please. That'd be really good. Matt Cundill  46:15 So you're based out of England, and you've got a lot of clients in North America? How do you structure your work day with so much activity in North America? Because I find when I moved to Europe to do work, you know, it's very lonely up until about one or two o'clock, and then the work starts to pile in. And then in the evening, it's it's incredibly busy. So how do you pace your day? To get the most out of what you do? Mark Asquith  46:42 I literally work like eight till five. You know, I'm that sort of guy. Now. I focus very much on the balance aspect with our little girl. But for like nine years, I was all over the place. I was doing calls at midnight. I was you know, so I was sort of a weird person to structure the day. I don't necessarily have to do it so much now with the timezone. Because we've got Danny out in the US, we got Lester and Judy, serve in the US time zones. Well, they're fantastic people, the team are better than me. And it's one of those where, when I was doing that when I was having to do everything myself and Karen and I, my co founder, we were doing everything ourselves, we would do things I would do a lot of calls at night. All my meetings were generally like 12pm onwards, but obviously pacific time or someone like called over over in Hawaii, I would have to do them at like 10pm, which is all right now and again. But the sort of unseen aspect of that, which is a real cop out answer is that I was traveling so much like I was doing six months of the year, pretty much in the US. Every single podcasting event in the US I've probably been to and I was doing a lot of it, I was traveling that much in the US that I'd get stopped and searched every time I left the country because they thought I was doing something I shouldn't be doing because I was there that often. And it was off a podcast event. So I was I would do a lot of my work there. And then the follow ups. You know, so we did an integration or whatever the follow up would be like at the next event, I'll just book a meeting with Apple and it will be there. So yeah, it was it was quite an interesting time. I do that far less now. Because we've got a little girl and then we've got an amazing team that covers the transatlantic side as well. But yeah, I'm fortunate because I get to do the everything up to five half five, which is usually things like this really nice calls really nice interviews and chats and stuff. So it's Yeah, so it's a lucky position to be. Matt Cundill  48:22 Mark. Thanks so much for doing this. I've been dying to get you on the show for a number of years, but it's finally happened. Thank you. Mark Asquith  48:28 Oh, it's my pleasure. Yeah, thank you so much. What a fantastic host and you thank you for everything you do for people. Pleasure. Tara Sands (Voiceover)  48:34 The Sound Off podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill, produced by Evan Surminski, edited by Chloe Emond-Lane social media by Aidan Glassey. ASnother great creation from the Sound Off Media Company.  There's always more at sound off podcast.com

Matt Vettese's career journey in radio has lasted 13 years... so far. He was caught up in layoffs last November when he was an unexpected budget cut at Big 101.1 in Barrie, Ontario. Over his time in radio, he worked in places like Peace River, Alberta and Thunder Bay, Ontario, and what he learned was the importance of connecting with listeners regardless of station size. We also spoke about the strength of social media a in a medium and smaller size market, where you are literally the only media game in town. We also geeked out a bit about music, podcast and his studio set up - which is very cool! Matt is currently teaching radio skills at Mohawk College while remaining open to new career opportunities. TRANSCRIPTION: Tara Sands (Voiceover)  00:02 The Sound off podcast. The show about podcast and broadcast starts now. Matt Cundill  00:13 Matt Vettese as been in radio for over a decade. In no particular order, he's worked for coarse Acadia Broadcasting Blackburn radio and is now teaching at Mohawk College along with the awesome Sam Cooke. Most recently, he was doing afternoon drive and Barry at big one on one and is kind enough to join me on the show today. My thanks by the way to Will Nash for sending me the connection email to get us together. And now Matt Vettese joins me from the very Canadian sounding maple Ontario. Matt Vettese  00:44 I've been in radio for 13 years now been, it's been a wild ride, I can't believe that it's been over a decade. Matt Cundill  00:51 Why do you want to get into radio? Matt Vettese  00:52 I always loved music and like I played in a band in high school. And I always wanted to do something that really involved music in some sort of capacity. And when I was sort of graduating high school, figuring out what I wanted to do with my career and like, okay, you know, you do the typical thing that everyone says like, go to school, get a job, all of that. And I was like, I just knew I didn't want to do like an accounting job or anything boring like that I wanted to work with music in some capacity. And I just sort of knew that, you know, playing in a band, especially in a punk band, it just the odds weren't in my favor. And so I was looking at all the courses and programs and I saw radio, and I just thought, you know, like I love from when I was 12 years old, I'd loved sitting there at night and listen to the radio and listening to my favorite songs and just like, oh, wait, you can actually do that. Like, this is actually a career option. I can go to school, learn this and do it. So I went to I went to Humber. And as that program sort of went on within radio, the more and more I fell in love with it. And you know, like connecting with people and connecting with people over music. So my loves sort of grew from there. And then just Yeah, I just really fell deep for it. And it was like, I want to dedicate my life to this. Matt Cundill  02:14 For the people who are watching this on video, it seems like a fairly obvious answer, because behind you, you've got some vinyl. And for those on audio, you would not know that so that it would feel like a very natural conversation. But tell me, what do you like to listen to for music? Matt Vettese  02:30 Well, like I sort of grew up listening to heavier music, and there was just like a weird pipeline, right? Like at 12 years old, I think I discovered Metallica. And I was like, Ooh, this is like, heavy. And this is cool, right? And then I found nirvana. And I was like, wait, you can put that much raw emotion into a song. And that kind of led me down my punk journey, and a lot more into like emo music as well. And so now for me, I just love any type of music that has that raw emotion in it. And whether they're happier songs, sad songs, it's just like anything that really has that raw emotion is what gives me goosebumps and makes me you know, just drawn towards the band and the music. If you look behind me, I mean it's sort of a variety of stuff. I don't know if you can fully see all of them but I mean, like I've got rancid back there for more of like the punk stuff have got some modern baseball for more of the emo stuff. I got the Pixies up there got city and color The Wonder Years so it's just kind of all that like pop punk, Emo, punk type of music and you know, it's that type of stuff that really makes me excited. Matt Cundill  03:40 You're bad religion guy? Matt Vettese  03:42 Yeah, yeah, I saw Bad Religion a few times back in high school as well. Matt Cundill  03:46 Explain bad religion to me, because, you know, in the 90s I understood the appeal. I watched them sell out. wasn't a big venue, but they still sold out in in Edmonton. I used to get a lot of letters as music director of that stations like, well, you play all this hard rock like Metallica and Godsmack. How come there's no room for punk? And I believe in the research punk music just never researched very well. So you know, bands like rancid and bad religion. We didn't often find a place for them on the radio station. I think I might have squeezed in a bad religion tune here and there just to appease the fans. But why doesn't punk work on rock radio? Or why does it feel like there's not a big home for punk music on radio? Matt Vettese  04:27 I think because the whole genre of punk is very built on the DIY scene. And a lot of punk bands are sort of anti capitalist, they're anti mainstream. So there's a push back. And so I feel like punk bands almost want to make their sound in a way where it doesn't fit with radio and that corporate mold and I mean, like there's different types of bands for everything. And there are bands that sort of fit that mainstream effect. We've seen bands in The 2000s especially sort of fit that like the my chemical romance with the Black Parade, and I mean, even AFI, who were more of a punk band starting off and you know, seeing songs like Miss murder, and girls not gray hit much music and hit alternative radio, those sort of fit, but there was that sort of mainstream and commercial appeal, and they've sort of evolved, but you're never going to hear an old AFI song on the radio because it was more thrash punk. And it was more well, fashion. Punk isn't the right you know, type of genre for that type of music. Bu t you know, it just the anti mainstream in the sound and the vibe of the actual genre. It was built not to be on the radio, if that makes sense. Matt Cundill  05:44 I loved AFI Miss murder, I thought that was a great song. And you know, some of those bands that you mentioned, like in the 2000s, there was a bit of a hole for more punk music to make appearances on the radio, and you put this right on your Instagram, it says I like sad songs that sound happy. And that sort of describes the whole emo thing and you embrace it, and it's who you are. But I was adding songs as program director on a rock station, I didn't really understand too much about my chemical romance and bands like that. Matt Vettese  06:12 Yeah, but see, the thing is like bands like that they have, you know, with my chemical romance, you have albums, like three cheers, where the songs had some mainstream appeal, but then the Black Parade comes out. And all of a sudden, it's like the anthem of a generation. But that's because that was sort of the point in time where my chemical romance really embraced like the mainstream side of it. And that was like their, like rock, opera ballad type of album, right? Where that really blew them up. And now that's also why when you think back to 2000s, email, you think, to My Chemical Romance, because they put out that one album that had that massive mainstream appeal, but a lot of the other bands like rancid or bad religion, going back to what you were saying earlier, like they're from that like, DIY punk scene, and like the songs that they were writing weren't for that mainstream commercia l success. Matt Cundill  07:03 What was your gateway radio station into music? What did you listen to on the radio, if you even did, because I know you had an iPod. So maybe you spent more time on an iPod. Matt Vettese  07:13 It was a mix of both right? Like, that's why I got into radio, I feel like I was one of that I was like, smack dab in the middle of that generation between radio and iPod. And I would spend my nights listening to the Ongoing History of New Music with Alan Cross. Right, like that was it and then, you know, the edge also had a bunch of punk and metal shows that were going on late at night when I was a kid. And I would you know, get home from school and go into my basement, we had an unfinished basement. And I would like practice skateboard tricks while listening to one or 2.1 the edge. Matt Cundill  07:44 Your first radio experience? Matt Vettese  07:47 So my first real experience in a professional radio station was an intern experience. And it was actually with cash condors at kiss 92 Back in 2010, that only lasted a few months, because then they went through some changes over there. And they got rid of the interns because they just you know, couldn't manage it with all the changes that were happening in the station at that time. But I mean, like, that was just my first real experience in a professional station working with someone like cash Connors, who was a professional, he was always awesome with me. And that was my first real taste of real professional radio, right? You know, he'd be like, I have all these artists coming up. This is when I'm talking like look up some artists news and and I was almost like a little bit of a content producer there as this is probably like 18 at the time, does the 18 year old and a radio station sit in there like looking up stuff, answering phones and like taking requests from people when you know, the phone lines were just constant at that time as well. That like that was my first real experience working with a professional radio station. Matt Cundill  08:54 And at one point you did move out West. Matt Vettese  08:56 Yeah, so my career kind of goes, had that internship for a couple of months. That ends I go back to school, I still had a year left in school. And then towards the end of my final year, this lovely man named Scott guest speaks in one of our classes. And after that class, I went to him like hey, look, you know, I'm looking for internship or board up opportunities, like entry level gigs. And he had told me that, you know, we have a an internship program coming up for the summer. He's going to be hiring for that soon and shoot him an email and now he was the APD at am 640 at the time. And so I shot him an email, I did my internship with him when My internship was over, I volunteered until the board up position came up board up there for a couple of years. And when I realized that, you know, that entry level position wasn't going to result in anything on air within the Greater Toronto Area. I'm like, You know what, I really want to be on air. I know, I know. I'm gonna have to pack up and move out last something that we were told in school The time right like pack up, move out last. And so I finally you know, did it went out to Peace River Alberta I worked at a country radio station doing middays out there. And that was my first real experience of being actually on air. And man when I tell you that I was so out of my comfort zone because now I'm in another part of Canada, that you know, I just, it was also new to me, I'm working on a country radio station have never listened to country music in my life before then. And looking back I made so many awesome friends such an amazing experience. I recommend any new person to the industry to sort of move out West and get that experience. It was just like the coolest thing. And then from there,  I sort of moved to Thunder Bay. I did some stuff in Thunder Bay and then worked my way back down into southern Ontario was working in Wingham for a while and Barry and yeah, that's sort of the story my career. Matt Cundill  10:57 Give me the country artists whose name you mispronounced in Peace River. Matt Vettese  11:01 Oh, whose name I mispronounced I don't know. Because here's the thing. I get the Peace River and and I was very upfront with the PDE. Like, hey, look like I know I'm joining a country radio station. I just really want to do radio. I don't know much about the genre I'm going to learn. And so the second I got there, we went into the studio, and he went through the full log in media touch. And it was like, Alright, how do you pronounce this person? And I would say it and I got majority of them wrong. And he would correct me. So at least this way, when I went on air, I was saying their names, right. And if I had an artist that I didn't know how to pronounce, I would run to his office or to someone else's office and be like, how do i pronounce this person's name? Matt Cundill  11:42 Tell me about Thunder Bay. Just because I when I think of Thunder Bay, I think of a very competitive radio market to companies. I think there's about six, seven stations in there. Maybe even more, but there's nothing around. It's a big market, but also remote. Matt Vettese  12:01 Yeah, it Thunder Bay is like the largest city in Northwestern Ontario. And that sort of the hub for all of those smaller communities. And working in Thunder Bay was honestly, I have so many amazing things to say about Thunder Bay, honestly, like I part of me left my heart in Thunder Bay. I love that city. I love the people there. It was just the coolest experience. And you know, if I didn't have friends and family over here that I was working towards getting back here, I'd probably still be in Thunder Bay. Like there's just so many amazing things to say about that city. I mean, I was even DJing people's weddings on the side. When I left. friends were telling me you know, listeners are asking where you went. And yeah, I really did leave a part of my my heart in Thunder Bay, so many amazing things to say about that place. Matt Cundill  12:53 And in terms of competitive market, there are two companies that I guess really go at each other. Matt Vettese  12:58 And yeah, I think it's Dougal and Acadia broadcasting, which were the big two up there. And then I think they have CBC as well. But CBC really wasn't a focus in terms of that competitiveness. But it's competitive. Like those two companies, at least when I was there, we're really gunning for each other all of the time. Matt Cundill  13:18 Then you move to Wiggum, getting a little closer to home a little closer to home. Matt Vettese  13:22 Now I'm within a two hour drive of home, which was nice, and you know, being able to go home on the weekends and family events and all of that and not having to hop on a flight. So that was really exciting. And Wingham, I worked for Blackburn out there. And that was another great experience. Because I think I'm one of those people. It's very fortunate that I've worked with so many great people in this industry. I feel like as this industry gets smaller, the people just get better, as weird as that sounds, but it's just like people that are in the industry genuinely want to be there. They are super friendly. And the industry has a way of weeding out a lot of the people that don't belong there don't want truly want to be there. And a lot of those big egos, right, like a lot of those big egos really aren't in radio anymore, because radio isn't the same as it was back in the 80s and 90s. When we saw a lot of those big egos that were kind of running things. I don't actually know what it was like, because I wasn't around back then. But from the stories I've heard, you know, and from my experiences, everybody in radio has been so kind to me and so wonderful. And especially in a market like Wingham where it's a bit of a smaller market, and a lot of the people that are there and have been there for a long time are there because, you know, they've raised their families there, or they're from there, and they, you know, they want to give back to the community and they want to put together like, good community radio, and it's just It's great working with people like that. Matt Cundill  14:49 I think that's one of the problems we have in Canadian radio. And that's in big markets. We look at scale size, the numbers and you know, There's a lot of distractions in a place like Toronto. However, in Wiggum in Kamloops Peace River Flin, Flon Thompson Kentville. Nova Scotia, radio still matters, not quite as much, but almost as much as back in the 90s. And I think that's where if the decisions are coming out of Toronto, you're just looking at numbers. And we're not really looking at what makes radio great, which is that high touch that you were just talking about. Matt Vettese  15:29 Right?  Like radio is such an important medium. And audio is such an important medium, that when you put it in to the hands of people that don't truly understand that they're going to take it for granted, and things are going to happen. But when people truly understand how important radio is to its communities, and when people start prioritizing that, that's when you really see radio thrive. Matt Cundill  15:54 You found yourself in Barry, and working at the core station in buried big 101. But also that's in close proximity to a lot of the other other legendary stations that you grew up around, including including the edge you were a part of all those stations I mentioned. I think like the ones in the core stations in Hamilton and the edge. How did you see doing a show and Barry but also having to do it in a in bigger markets as well. Matt Vettese  16:19 So the cool thing was about Barry is not a lot of people also realize how big of a radio market various it's super competitive. And Barry is one of those communities where they really care about the community as well. And I think a lot of that gets lost, we're because it's just about an hour drive into into Toronto. So a lot of people kind of think, okay, Barry to Toronto, right. But it's one of those communities that genuinely cares about the community and it is its own entity that sort of sometimes gets lost. So working in a community like Barry, you just really have to get back to that, you know, that community feel working within a market like that, especially when you have such a giant next door, it kind of feels like being Canadian living next to America, you just need to be able to really connect with the community. But in terms of like doing the work within Toronto and Hamilton out of Barrie, I mean, when I was doing that, it was all voice trackwork. So you know, I knew that my voice is going to be heard on Toronto radio, I knew my voice was going to be heard on Hamilton radio. And that was really exciting, because for me, it was like I grew up listening to these radio stations. So now I get to have my voice on the stations, even if it's on a voice track type of scale, it's still cool to be able to drive around and hear my voice on the stations that I grew up listening to. So that was just a really cool experience. And I feel like when you're in the studio, whether you're in a big market or a small market, I just kind of think of how do I connect with the people that I'm talking to and the demographic of that radio station. And I don't ever really think of the size of the radio station. Like to me, that's not important to me, at the end of the day, you know, we are taught this in school, you're talking to one person. So it's like whether I'm talking on a st ation in Toronto that has, you know, the reach of millions of people or on a station in Peace River, which is much smaller. At the end of the day, I'm talking and connecting to that one person. Matt Cundill  18:24 That's such a great way to think about it. And yes, that's going to be the clip I'm going to put out. When I get around to doing the reels and some of the other, you know, social content afterwards. I sometimes think that we think about the business so often that you wind up where you have to talk to the diary holders and bury, but the PPM carriers in Toronto, and that's a mistake, but yet we make the mistake every day because stations are programmed, and at least should be programmed, I think differently between Toronto and you know, where there's a PPM measurement, and in Hamilton where there isn't, but in the end, I think you're right, we should be just talking to people. Matt Vettese  19:05 I think the best that we can do in radio or in any creative industry is to just sort of constantly do your best and grow within yourself and look at yourself not so much about what the competition's doing, or what the market down the street is doing. Think about what am I doing to make myself better? And what are we doing to make the station better? And overall, if you just basically focus on yourself, eventually the listener is going to realize like oh, hey, they're actually doing great things over there. And that is going to result in the ratings push whether it's ppm or diary, right like you just got to look at yourself and do better yourself and grow yourself and the results will eventually come. But if you're so worried about chasing that number, even if you catch that number for like one quick glimpse, it's gone in an instant because you didn't sustainable We build that foundation. Matt Cundill  20:02 Another smart thing you just said, and that's about the competition, you're not worried about what else is on the dial, you're turning on the microphone, you're doing a break, what are you up against? Matt Vettese  20:11 I'm not even thinking about what I'm up against to be completely honest, you know, because I can't control what they're doing over there. Like, there's absolutely no control over what they're doing. I just want to do the best that I can do, and hope that the listener or my audience feels that it is better than what the competition is doing. Matt Cundill  20:31 So I liked that answer. I accept that answer. I also would have accepted that you're up against all the shit people got to do in a day. Matt Vettese  20:38 That too, yes, because it's true, right? Like you're trying to break their attention or their schedule. The thing is about radio, too, is that a lot of the times, like you said, they're doing a lot throughout the day. And a lot of the times people aren't listening to the radio, that may be US radio, people are listening. They have it at maybe volume five, and a little bit of a song is down there. And it's like, how do you break through all of that noise of the guy that just cut them off? Or you know, the phone call that they're getting? How do you break through or even the conversation they're having in the car with their friend, to break through that? That is a whole other challenge. It's same thing with radio as it is with social media, right? Like you have so many seconds to sort of catch their attention and get them to either stay with your video or to turn up the radio and hear what you're saying that there just are so many things that you're competing with in radio. Matt Cundill  21:31 And you're right, though you shouldn't worry about it, especially two seconds before you're about to go on the air. Tara Sands (Voiceover)  21:36 Transcription of the sound off podcast is powered by the podcast, Super Friends, five podcast producers who get together to discuss podcasting, sharpen your podcast and creation skills by following the show on the sound off podcast, YouTube or Facebook page. Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  21:54 This podcast supports podcasting 2.0. So feel free to send us a boost. If you're listening on a new podcast app, find your new app now at podcasting, two point org slash apps. That's podcasting. Two point org slash apps. Matt Cundill  22:09 What are the things that you've done? I think really well. And you, I need you to speak to this because I know we have an older audience, or at least a portion of the older audience who kind of struggle with keeping social media skills and other but you're listening, you're millennial, you're not afraid of any of this stuff. Yeah, the iPod threw that away, you probably were first in line to get an iPhone. I mean, you're using great video content. So what are some of the things that you have done to stay on top of all the changes technologically to continue to make yourself viable and radio? Matt Vettese  22:43 You know, I had this conversation yesterday with someone about, you know, if you played in a band, it was always the person who set up the MySpace account and printed out the band flyers and did all of those things that ended up in a creative industry, it's just because it comes down to like the passion and the love for creating media, like when I'm creating social media, I'm thinking of it the same way that I'm thinking of creating content on the radio, to me, doing a radio break is the same thing as putting together an Instagram reel, I'm using the same formula, right? Hooking their attention, give them a good compelling story, and give them a payoff. That's the same thing with a radio break, you hook them in, you tell them a story, and you engage with them. And that's sort of what I feel like I'm doing on social media. It's just it's not a new formula. But in terms of like you said, like, staying up with the tech, I am a millennial, you know, I was on MySpace at 12 years old, and like, talking to bands and coding my page. And then MySpace moved into Facebook, and you know, interacting with friends and doing all of that on Facebook and Instagram and all that. Like when I went to Peace River, I set up their Instagram account, I really pushed the Facebook page hard because when I got there, they were like, Oh, this is in a Facebook town. And I was like, oh, yeah, I bet. And so I started posting on this out on the Facebook page and like, it ended up growing, we got interaction. That's just the type of person that I am. I love keeping up with tech. I love keeping up with with social media. And it's really not hard if you break it down to being the exact same thing that we do on air every single day. Matt Cundill  24:26 So well said and spoken I had trouble trying to decipher how to go from doing a live break to the next technological stuff, which was a voice track break. I found that to be weird. But you're exactly right. It's the same sort of components. You just have to remove time temperature weather, that sort of thing and put yourself a day or two ahead. I get it. Matt Vettese  24:49 Yeah, it's the same formula. It's just you do it in a different way. But at the end of the day, it comes down to the same thing like really break it down. I think the biggest channel ones that have heard from other people about, you know, my social media presence, while also doing radio was like, how do you find the time doing your show and doing social media at the same time, I feel like that's the biggest challenge that most radio people have. But it comes down to also like prep work and planning things. You know, it's like, if I know I'm talking about this on my show later, at two o'clock in the afternoon, and I prep my show at nine o'clock in the morning, I can go and film that video at 10 o'clock, edit it for 11. And then, you know, be on air too. When it comes to posting to Facebook, Facebook's easy, you copy and paste the link or you make a meme and you know, you throw it out there you throw up a question. Facebook is the easiest. So the people that aren't posting on Facebook during their show, I don't know what you're so busy with your two, three songs, you can quickly type out a sentence, post a question, throw it up there. The video, I do understand that that doesn't come as naturally to a lot of people. And that takes a lot more time and work and thought. But breaking it down. Like I said, it comes down to being the same thing as as a radio break. Matt Cundill  26:05 So somebody wants to elevate their game. And I don't know who's left in radio, who is not fully participating in anything social at this point. But you know, maybe people need an upgrade. You'd be surprised. Yeah, well, I'm sorry, I asked that question. Because I then within 10 minutes from now, I'm going to find a radio station that is just figuring out how to do their Instagram page. But what are some of the tools of the trade right now that you think would be the minimum for somebody to really participate in going full full on social like, is it iPhone? Should they maybe look at a Samsung device? Is there? What what are some of the toys that you would look at? What can they have in their computer? What's a good webcam? What's, what are some of the things that you would be like, I gotta have this before I get to work? Matt Vettese  26:50 Absolutely smartphone, I mean, most of my videos, if not all of them now are just shot with this. It's not even a fancy iPhone, either. It's a 13. It's just the regular one, it's not a pro, it's not. And I shoot with my front facing camera be so I can actually see myself. So make sure that you have a phone and tinker with your settings a little bit to make them higher quality. Like I know a lot of people tell me I'm crazy because I film in 4k 60 FPS on my phone. And that just absolutely sucks the life out of your hard drive, but filming better quality. And then I edit within cap cut cap cut is the one on the phone app that I would recommend. That's how a lot of people do the fancy captions and transitions and all of that cap cut is honestly the best free to use editing software for your phone. And just honestly, like, teach yourself learn, take that initiative. There are so many different accounts on Tik Tok on YouTube on Instagram that will show you how to edit videos and do cool effects and do captions and all of that it's just a matter of actually taking that initiative and wanting to do it. Matt Cundill  27:59 I'm just writing down all those notes. Because there seems to be no such such good stuff. Matt Vettese  28:05 Yeah, absolutely. Matt Cundill  28:06 Why is it that you're so unafraid to try stuff. And I mean, when I mentioned that, as I like putting the camera at 4k Who's got space for that, like I could put my camera at 4k. I'm just tired of getting the iCloud, notice that I'm out of space. Matt Vettese  28:20 I know I am too. But I'll go back and just sort of delete a bunch of the old that once my video is posted, or it's edited and saved down, I go back and delete everything but the final product. So that frees up all that space again, you just you just have to actually do it, which sometimes, you know, if you go through my camera roll, if you go through my camera roll, there's a lot of bad takes that I forgot to delete. And that's probably hoarding a bunch of storage. But every now and then I'll go and clean that all up. But yeah, storage is the biggest issue. But when it comes to actually creating the content, I mean, there's so many other free tools that you can use that like cap cut, that can just get you started, right. And then once you kind of get on a roll with things, then you go from there and you upgrade your equipment and you find the paid features that you can't live without. And you know, you just kind of go from there. But to actually get started, you really don't need more than an iPhone. Matt Cundill  29:14 So your time at chorus came to an end you did four years it started before the pandemic. And you went right through the pandemic. And then you know, November 2023 I read at least that you are not going to be part of that anymore. I'll soon that was a business decision that was made. Yeah. Because I don't think you're short of any skills. Matt Vettese  29:31 Well, I appreciate you saying that. But yeah, no, I started in 2019. I sort of took that leap from Wiggum. And I was doing afternoon drive and I was the music director over there but I really just wanted to make my way into a bigger market and once again get closer to home. So I reached out to mark Cameron who was the PD at the time, and I'm like, Hey, we've had a few conversations on Twitter about the Gaslight Anthem a band we both love and I'm like I want to get to Barry like that's a that's a goal of mine. And he reached out and was like, Hey, I actually am about to have a swing announcer position open up if you want to apply for it. So I applied for it. I'm like, You know what, why not, you know, I know, it's, it was part time, and it was weekends. And um, why would you know, you go from full time afternoons into part time weekends and do all that, but I just really wanted to take that leap into a larger market and to being closer from home. And I knew that I can move back in with my parents for a little bit while I was kind of getting settled in there. So it was like, I'm just gonna make this leap of faith and do it. And then I did it for about a year until I was like, Okay, I've been doing this for a year now I need to start figuring something out. And then I get the notice that, you know, Mark was going to be stepping off air as the afternoon drive announcer he was being promoted to regional PD. So they're gonna hire for an afternoon guy. And I'm like, okay, cool. This is my my way in. And then I did the interview went through the process and the pandemic hits. So now I'm like, filling in for the afternoon drive role throughout the course of the first, you know, few months of the pandemic, because obviously, they weren't going to, you know, hire me at such a time, March of 2020, they weren't going to hire me on and take on a new salary. So I just kind of grinded it out, did it throughout the pandemic. And then finally, when things started to ease in October, they gave me the full time contract for afternoon drive and music assistant. And I did that. And then at one point, I mean, I was the only announcer on that station at big one on one because our morning showed left, the PD had left, we had a VT midday show, and then it was just me live there the entire time. And when that kind of came to an end, it sort of took me by surprise, I was told that I was going to be the future of that station when they were reworking some things and changing the format. And then come November, it was just you know, hey, budget cuts company's not doing too well, we got to get rid of someone. And unfortunately, that's gonna be you and. Matt Cundill  31:57 If you were the only one in the station, is there anyone at the station now. Matt Vettese  32:00 There is because they ended up moving someone from Toronto into another position. And then you know, there's just a whole bunch of changes that have kind of happened there since I've left. And you know, I'm not, I haven't really kept too much of an eye on what's happened since I've left I've really been focusing on you know, my future and where that's going to be and end up and really been grinding towards, you know, finding another radio gig and focusing and doubling down on my social media. I've had a few like paid brand deals. And you know, I've just really been looking forward rather than looking back. So I don't know much about the changes that are sort of happening or ongoing over there to be completely honest. Matt Cundill  32:40 But you do know enough about radio to be teaching. Yes, you're a mohawk. Matt Vettese  32:45 That was a really exciting change. And I honestly didn't think that I would love teaching as much as I honestly do. It was you know, one of those things where I got laid off needed a gig was put in touch with the program coordinator, Sam Cooke, at Mohawk. And she was like, hey, like, let me pass your stuff along to you know, my boss. And then all of a sudden, I'm in conversations and got hired the day that I talked to them, officially. And yeah, like I said, I really didn't expect to love teaching as much as I really do. And I think that's because I just have such great students. And like seeing those students and like the bright eyes and bushy tails that they have, and the love and passion that they have, like that's enough to really rejuvenate you and make you feel feel new again, and they genuinely want to learn and they're excited. And they're good at what they do. And yeah, I could go on about my students because they're honestly the best. Matt Cundill  33:42 So you've already helped out older generation right now like Gen X people were maybe some older millennials who might not be fully immersed into the social or all the skills that it takes to do great content these days. But now here you are teaching Gen z's. I just find it funny because so many Gen X broadcasters have been banging on Millennials for a bunch of things. But here we are, we're speaking to a millennial who's now teaching the Gen z's. What's going on down there. Matt Vettese  34:08 Okay. I have to say, I don't know what it is about the whole generation war. Millennials. I understand like, I don't understand why millennials ever got any hate to be completely honest. Because we were sort of that last generation without technology. We grew up with it. We were, you know, going through so much at such pivotal times were recessions coming out of school and having to work three jobs yet being called lazy because we couldn't make ends meet while working three jobs. You know, like we went through all of that. And the funny thing is, is when it comes to tech stuff, I feel like as a millennial, especially as one that's very tech savvy. I feel like as a millennial, I constantly had to teach the people older than me about tech. And then now with Gen Z. I feel like because they grew up in it, they're almost rejecting a lot of it and a lot lot of them don't know how to do a lot of basic stuff. So now it's like you're teaching Gen Z. And the younger generations who are supposed to know more than you, because typically younger people are better with technology. And so it's like, we're kind of caught in the middle where we're teaching the older and the younger about tech stuff. Matt Cundill  35:15 What are they teaching you? Matt Vettese  35:18 They are honestly teaching me that like, it's basically okay to just be who you are on a apologetically, which is something that I think we all sort of learn as we get older. But yeah, there was a part of me growing up that was like, Oh, I can never do this, or I can't do this, or I shouldn't do this. Because maybe it's cringy. Right. But as you get older, and then you see the younger generations, where they're kind of like, well, things are just so messed up. So why are we even going to care about that? Like, let's just have a good time. And like, you know, what, yeah, and the older I get, I don't care. Half of the stuff that I put out on social media, I feel sometimes like it's it's cringe, or, you know, I'll get comments like, this is cringy. But that doesn't bother me. Because you know what you get to that point where you're like, yeah, it is cringy. But like, just embrace it. Matt Cundill  36:05 What excites them about radio? Matt Vettese  36:06 I think they get excited about the same thing that we get excited about, right? It's about the music, it's about connecting with people like, that's the great thing about radio. And the medium is that you get to listen to music and connect with people. That's the basic standard of radio. And that hasn't changed. From the inception of radio to today, you see all the changes within the business, but like, take away the business. And the actual part of radio that everyone loves is the same then as it is now. It's connecting, and it's the music. Matt Cundill  36:41 I never found that we were in a generational war. Although I do think that there's always questions being asked, especially about millennials, like what makes them tick? And how do we get the most out of them to work in previous work structures that we've had before? I think from the conversation we just had, I kind of feel that millennials have spent so much time customizing and, you know, whether it's an iPhone, whether it's their life, whether it's eventually became work from home, you know, customizing so many parts of life, that one of the big expenses from that generation is connectivity, and shared experiences, because there's so few. And I look at the Grammys a few weeks ago, where a lot of people did enjoy the music as it were because and music is very connective still. And perhaps I do think that Gen Z hungers for more connectivity and shared experiences. Matt Vettese  37:32 I think the main difference between Millennials and Gen Z is that, you know, millennials are looking for connection in any way possible. I mean, we grew up on MSN we grew up on on Facebook, and all of these different avenues that were ways that we can connect to as many people that looked or felt the same way as us, right from the comfort of our own home. Whereas I feel like from what I'm seeing from Gen Z, it feels like because they've always sort of have that connectivity to the whole world. And they grew up with that. They want more of that like real connection. And they almost want what the Gen X had free technology. We're seeing trends with Gen Zers that are ditching their iPhone for flip phones, because they're just like, You know what, I'm just overly connected and I'm sick of it. Isn't that wonderful? It is in its own way. I can't imagine ever doing that. Now as a millennial. I don't think I could ever ditch the iPhone for a flip phone. But I mean, the flip phone was my first phone, you know, and that was cool. We're the millennials are 89 text warriors. I'm willing to bet I still could text on a t nine. Matt Cundill  38:39 And by the way, for the I know what people are a t nine is basically where you click like, see, so you have to click the number two button one three times to get the two... Matt Vettese  38:48 Three times. Yeah. See, I told the I still remember the mall? Matt Cundill  38:53 Yeah, I didn't read is the ABC. Is that the one or the two? Yeah. Okay. Matt Vettese  38:57 The one was voicemail, you'd hold down voicemail, and that was speed dial. And then two was ABC three was d f. And then it went down that way I used to work at Canadian Tire when I was a teenager, it was when I first like real retail jobs. And I would quickly like we weren't allowed to have our phones. But I'll quickly check my phone, put it into my pocket. And I would type up my reply with my hand in my pocket and send out the text message without even looking at the phone. Matt Cundill  39:24 Well done. What do you want to happen next for you in life? Matt Vettese  39:29 That's a tough question. Matt Cundill  39:32 And career wise? Matt Vettese  39:33 I honestly I don't know. I'm sort of at that point. I think that you know, with what happened in November, it just sort of it was like a rock in the in the train track. And now I'm just sort of at that point where I don't have a clear picture anymore, right? Because it just sort of derailed some things and some plans and I'm open to different things happening. And that's kind of freeing in its own way right? Where it's I don't know where I'm going to be in five years, but I'm open to basically every opportunity. And now I just kind of get to sit back and have fun and keep my options open and in five years look back and be like, Well, that was, you know, a fun wild ride. Who would have thought that I'd be here. Matt Cundill  40:17 But thanks so much for doing this to be on the podcast. I appreciate it so much. Matt Vettese  40:20 Thank you so much for having me on. This was so much fun. Tara Sands (Voiceover)  40:23 The sound off podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski, edited by Chloe Emond-Lane social media by Aiden Glassey, another great creation from the sound off media company there's always more at sound off podcast.com

We're back with another radio star this week- one whose career I actually contributed to. Sarah Christie has been in radio for well over a decade, and currently serves as the National Music Manager for Virgin Radio Canada. We discuss her rise through the radio ranks, from a humble intern who moved to Winnipeg for an internship as soon as she was able, to one of the most important folks on Virgin's team. We also discuss how I hired Sarah myself back in the day, but didn't actually meet her until 5 years later. Radio is funny like that sometimes. Sarah shares some in-depth insights on the changing state of radio programming over the last decade. Things sure ain't the way they used to be, and stations have had to adapt to a whole truckload of new technology to stay on top of current music trends, including trolling TikTok for the newest surprise hit. She also discusses why she spent most of her career in Winnipeg, and what makes the city so special to her. Late in the show, we shift towards talking about Sarah's other interest, climate change. Sarah's got her own podcast, Earth Care, which provides listeners with a bevy of tips and ideas to help reduce their carbon footprint. You'll hear lots about it in this interview, but you should also check out the latest episode below if you want to, well, care for the earth. You can find Earth Care on iHeart and Spotify. Transcription: Tara Sands (Voiceover)  00:02 The Sound Off Podcast. The show about podcast and broadcast starts now. Matt Cundill  00:13 Sarah Christie is the national music manager for Virgin Radio Canada and host of the Earth Care project. I remember the first time I listened to her demo, listened to her show, and then later saw her resume. And I thought, yeah, this looks and sounds like radio talent. At some point in this episode, we'll get to the story of how I hired her in 2014, but never met her until five years later. Such is life in radio. Sarah is also going to give me a look inside how the music comes together on the radio. It's not programmed the way it used to be 10 years ago. We appear to be using more analytics and tools, but also relying on intuition and instinct as well. Sarah Christie joins me from Toronto. Sarah Christie  00:58 Wow, I actually didn't. And it's not that I didn't want to get in radio. It's that I didn't know that was an option. I had a high school teacher, when you- it comes time in high school, you got to pick what you're going into in university, what you're going to be studying in university, and because my high school was set up with academic courses, applied courses, the academic stream is you go to university, but I was so lucky to have a teacher kind of shake me and go, go to college, you should be in radio. And it was kind of that aha moment of, I didn't even know that was an option. And it's funny that I didn't know that it was an option, because in my eyes, the legendary music director programmer Pauly Morris, who was the music director, at Hits FM in St. Catharines for so many years. I knew him growing up, he was- he's best friends with one of my neighbors. So I grew up just, you know, asking questions, wanting to see the radio station, I had a little like- as a kid, those toy radios that could connect to like an empty am station, you know, so you could broadcast in your basement. So I always had a fascination with radio, but it was just so far fetched of an idea in my head to actually pursue it as a career until I had that high school teacher who said, what are you doing? Go to radio. And wouldn't it be great if I remembered her name? I'm going to kick myself and email you at like midnight being like, ahh! Matt Cundill  02:18 How did you know Paul Morris? Because if memory serves me right, they would never really present a small market award for music director of the year at Canadian Music Week. They would just mail it to him annually to save time. Sarah Christie  02:31 Yep, yeah, that checks out. No, so I grew up in St. Catharines. And my family is still there. And my family lives on this street that I always equate to like something from a 1950s movie, where like everybody grew up together and knows each other and is like peeking through their windows anytime something happens. And so he's coincidentally really good friends with one of the families there. And so because we're all so close, he was always at our barbecues and a lot of my childhood memories he was also there. And so that also introduced a lot of older music, like rock and roll, and kind of that rock and roll dream that's attached with radio, of like being at every concert and, you know, framing all your concert ticket stubs, and it's very much from growing up around Hits FM and knowing Pauly Morris. Matt Cundill  03:17 So was Hits FM the station that you grew up listening to? Sarah Christie  03:21 Yes and no. CHUM FM was always out in the morning. And my mom always wanted to win Beat the Bank. She actually did once. And I remember, so she just- she won $900. She stopped and then- then the vault went, and she would call every morning when they were airing the contest. And I heard her screaming, I was upstairs getting ready for school and I heard her screaming and I ran down and I was like, oh my God, you finally won. So no, we listened to CHUM FM every morning. You know, then it kind of was just dial switching to what station was playing the Backstreet Boys, which was very important. So Hits FM yes, because we were just introduced to so much music in our house growing up that it was kind of whatever song we wanted to listen to. But what was surreal about CHUM FM was that was one of my first internships. And so my first experience in the 260 building in Toronto, I was hearing voices before I was seeing the person. So I would like hear Roger Ashby down the hallway and turn around and be like, oh my god, like Jeff Howitt. And you know, Rick. Would hear Marilyn, my goodness, hear their voices before I actually saw them. And that was just surreal. Because those were the voices I would hear first thing in the morning growing up, and they gave my mom 900 bucks. Matt Cundill  04:33 That is sweet. And here you are interning, how does one intern for this legendary morning show? Sarah Christie  04:39 I, in college, sat down and emailed probably every email in radio that I could find, being like, please let me enter your building, which is how I ended up interning in Winnipeg before I worked there. But Dwayne Reade, who is my work Godfather, was the first one to really get back to me and be like, sure. What do you wanna do? So I started on their street team. And then I kept showing up at Dwayne's door being like, what else? What else could I do? Like I'm here, put me to work, I moved here for the summer, put me to work. And so he then hooked me up with just little tasks that would essentially keep me busy for the day and get me into the station. Matt Cundill  05:17 How did you know? Because the first question I asked was, how did you know you wanted to be in radio? Somebody had to tell you, you really need to be in radio. But then without any prompting or too much prompting, you had no trouble taking an intern position in a completely different time zone in a faraway planet called Winnipeg. How does that happen? I mean, there's got to be like a level of bravery just to go, yeah, no problem. I'll go to Winnipeg for the summer. Just don't make me stay for the winter. Sarah Christie  05:46 Ah, well I moved there in the winter, actually. I moved there in the middle of January for an internship. Yeah, no, I- I think there were a lot of things floating around my head, that I definitely- there's always a lot of things floating around my head. There were these bubbles of what I had interest in. And then once I had time to step back and really understand radio, I went, yeah, this is all of those things. This is creativity. This is connecting with people. This is music, my goodness, like I am the biggest cheerleader of music, I suck at singing, playing instruments, like I can't really dance, but I love all of those things. So this is just a job where I get to champion all of that and meet people and talk to people and somehow that is on my pay stub. You know, like that's- it was just one of those- one of those things where once you take a step back, go, why not give this a try? Matt Cundill  06:41 Yeah, and you got to touch everything in the building. And when I say the building, it's located- I know where it is. It's over on Pembina highway, and you got to go and do music and play on their RCS system. Might have done a few overnights? Sarah Christie  06:55 Yeah. Towards the end, I would do the overnight like the graveyard shift, as they call it. And then I would stay and intern with Bo and Des in the morning. Matt Cundill  07:04 It's like 2am to like 2pm. Sarah Christie  07:07 Yeah, and I was living- I was living- I can't remember the name of the neighborhood. But I had to take a bus, the rapid transit that would get- it was like an hour to the radio station. But that obviously wasn't a thing overnight. So it was yeah, cab overnight, then bus home in the morning. But that was cool, because David Drake was my program director there, and I think felt really bad that I moved there for an internship in the middle of winter. So he was like, what do you want to do? Like, let's let you do everything to keep you happy. So I also got to work at the NHL games with the TSN team. And I would go set up the microphone system for the player walk offs, which is hilarious because I know nothing about sports in general. And so it was always a conversation of my dad being like, so who- who'dyou hold the mic for today? And me having to like go ask around. It'd be like, I couldn't tell you. They were sweaty and tall. Matt Cundill  08:00 What a great experience that was, because you get to be in Winnipeg. I think the one thing you learned was that public transportation isn't really very useful in Winnipeg, you have to own a car or you can't do anything. Right? Sarah Christie  08:12 I did get a car. The second time I went to Winnipeg, I did, that was within a week I had a car. Yeah. But it was also for a morning show. So you have to be there at a very specific time. Matt Cundill  08:22 And so far, you've you've had your entire career, you know, work inside Bell properties. And you went back to Toronto shortly after that, though. But- and this is where I know, first of all, I knew that you did overnights because I actually heard you. I was working in the market at the time, I must have had insomnia and heard you. Sarah Christie  08:38 No way. Matt Cundill  08:39 Yeah, but you went back to Ontario and then started to work at Niagara, with Today FM. Sarah Christie  08:45 Yeah, so that was after my internship, I went and they launched Today FM, which was the same format on two different stations. And it was an experiment at the time, like, first of its kind in the area. So that was- that was also neat, because we were a completely new group all doing this thing together from the ground up. So we all became close quite fast. And you know, still keep in touch, which I think is something you don't get to experience unless you're willing to move and- and spend time at different stations. Matt Cundill  09:17 But that station, and I remember this because of your demo tape, and I listened to the demo tape. You guys were creating content all the time and doing things a little bit differently than other radio stations were. There was some experimentation to it. It wasn't going to be 10 in a row. It was going to be content as well as lots of music. Sarah Christie  09:35 Yeah, it was all about the conversation, the join the conversation, and it was mirrored after, I believe it's Now in Edmonton. The join the conversation, so they had an active text line which was always supposed to be going. We were really social media focused, which I mean, it's so funny to say that now because everyone is social media focused, but at the time it was- it was different. We were always supposed to be making content. And I think that's why they pulled in different personalities, like Oren is a comedian. He's an actor, like just trying to bring in some different perspective to, you know, push creativity out of one another, which was really fun. Matt Cundill  10:13 After that, though, you get hired in Winnipeg. And then this is where it gets strange because the person who hired you gets fired before you get there. Sarah Christie  10:21 I've had a story that I wanted to tell you about that for 10 years. And it didn't occur to me until like this past week that we've never even had the chance to talk about that. I mean, there's probably many stories that we could sit down and talk about with that experience. But yeah, that was- that was surreal. Matt Cundill  10:36 Well, let's swap stories, shall we? Sarah Christie  10:39 Well, I mean, because I was interviewed by you and Matt, we talked a lot on the phone. And then- Matt Cundill  10:45 Yeah for context, it's Matt Sutton, who is the morning show host there at the time, we were looking for a co host. And you came up and seemed like a very obvious hire. So much so that we hired you, but go ahead. Sarah Christie  10:57 Yeah, no. And then I just- Matt filled me in on what ha- Matt Sutton filled me in on what happened. And then I wasn't sure I had like, my bags packed, I was like, do I still have a job? I quit my other job. So when I got there, I remember. So this is my first- my first time having moving expenses, my first you know, big gig in radio, a morning show. And so you had hooked me up with moving expenses. And I remember emailing you and saying, I don't have anything, I just have clothes, I'm gonna furnish my apartment when I get there, I'm gonna have to like go start from scratch. And I don't really remember what you replied, but I'm sure it was something like, great have fun, like not knowing that I didn't understand moving expenses. So then I'm in my head thinking, wow, I'm gonna go furnish my apartment and then bring them receipts. And that's what I did. I furnished my apartment and then brought them receipts. And this was 10 years ago. So moving expenses were healthy, versus I don't even know if they exist anymore. Now, I didn't use all of them. Like I didn't use all of them. But I remember going to HR and submitting all these receipts after I had gone and furnished my apartment. and they were being like, what, what am I looking at here? And then after, I don't know, a week of them trying to figure out how to handle this situation, because you weren't there. I was new and confused. They submitted them. And I thank a lot of people for furnishing my first apartment. Matt Cundill  12:24 That is outstanding. Sarah Christie  12:26 I didn't know. Now I know. Matt Cundill  12:29 Yeah. I think the people who were who were lining up to fire me, by the way, asked, what are we doing with this morning show position? Oh, all hired. Here you go. Here's the paperwork. I've done it already. And there was a look of disappointment in that it had been filled, and I had filled it, and there was no going back because the contracts had been signed. Sarah Christie  12:46 Oh, well. Thanks for getting me in there. Matt Cundill  12:50 Yeah, well, for what it's worth, you're on the air in Toronto, and I don't know where they are. Sarah Christie  12:55 Someone approved my moving expenses. And I appreciate that. Matt Cundill  12:59 Oh no, absolutely. Moving expenses? For sure. Absolutely. We're gonna stamp that thing right through. You can see how, by the way, the way I operated didn't necessarily jive with the direction they were going. Sarah Christie  13:12 Well, when I got there, Matt Sutton, you know, had just so many great stories about you guys working together too, and I- it's a shame that we never got the time to experience that. But thank you for hiring me. And bringing me back to Winnipeg. I do really love that city. Matt Cundill  13:30 Yeah, you know what, this is a great place to do radio. I know radio has changed and there may not be as many people on the air. But it's always been a great place to do radio. I think Edmonton for that matter, as well. But you know, so much great talent has passed through this city, in one form or another. I think because there's enough stations, it's very competitive. Everybody knows each other. You're going to meet all the people, it's- yeah, it's- it's a great place to do radio. And still is, even to this day. Sarah Christie  13:59 And also, it's just a great city. I had so much fun exploring there. And that's also the fun part about moving for your job is- and being on air, it forces you to get to know your community. But there's a lot that makes Winnipeg special. I just read this really great article that was shared, I think, on LinkedIn. And it was basically talking about how Winnipeg is the most hated city, but only by the people who live there, because it's like their city. It's theirs to hate. And it was just everything that makes Winnipeg so special. And yeah, I echo it. Matt Cundill  14:32 If we were doing a radio show, we would play the Weakerthans. Sarah Christie  14:35 Yeah, exactly. And Burton Cummings. Matt Cundill  14:38 What did you do after- I think you stayed in Winnipeg for six months? Maybe a little closer to a year, but what came next? Sarah Christie  14:44 Yeah, it was a little closer to a year and then I moved back to Toronto to be assistant music director at CHUM with Lisa, and then have, in some way or another, been in the music department ever since. In some way or another I mean, because at some points it's been split between being on air but yeah, was assistant music director with Lisa Grassi. Matt Cundill  15:02 Are you still touching music? Naturally you are. Sarah Christie  15:05 Yes. Matt Cundill  15:06 Yeah, I've got- I'm gonna have music questions coming up. So. Sarah Christie  15:10 Okay, yeah. As we record this my job title is the national music manager for Virgin Radio. So I schedule and am part of the music team that pushes out the music for our Virgin brand at Bell. Matt Cundill  15:25 Did you also do some on air work at Kitchener afterwards, or did you just program that? Sarah Christie  15:30 No. So I was on air, I did middays, I did drive in Kitchener. I was there for almost four or five years. Again, love Kitchener. It's just so great being on air because it like- without that, I don't think you have as much time or intention to go and figure out all the things that make a city special. But Kitchener, Winnipeg have such a special place in my heart. So yeah, I was- I was on air and music director when we launched Virgin Radio there. Matt Cundill  15:58 So is it fair to say you know both Music Master and RCS? Could you go back and forth? Are you- are you- are you bilingual when it comes to this? Sarah Christie  16:04 RCS, I don't really know. No RCS I- RCS I've watched people schedule on and I've played around in, but ours- I'm a music master girl. Matt Cundill  16:13 Nice. Since that time, though, that you've worked- so 2016 onward, I know you've got to work with some great programmers. I think Karen Steele falls in there. Tell me a little bit about you know, programming radio, over the last five years. A little bit, sort of, you know- and even going through the pandemic. So we started talking about you know, Today FM and it being conversational and social, and now you're back working with Bell, heavy music. But there's social parts to it as well. So just tell me what- what do you have to do to make great radio for your listeners? Sarah Christie  16:45 You have to be a great team, that's for sure. Because without it, you're gonna be missing so many elements. But Virgin I'll speak to specifically because it's a music driven brand. And then obviously, the hope is that your stations also have phenomenal personalities, but Virgin's interesting. And the CHR brand is interesting, because it's ever changing. And something you think won't work, you hear it for the first time, you know, go why would I even listen to this song again? Suddenly blows up on TikTok now, and that's now something we have to consider. And it's a rock song from the 80s, you know, things like that. So it's- it's interesting now, because you have to be keeping an eye on so many different outlets that might influence your decision when programming, whether that's movies, TV shows, social media, trends, things- things that you weren't paying attention to before, because there still is that programmer- programmer's instinct of just wanting to know, this is a good song, I feel it, like I- when I hear it, I just know this is a good song. But then you- there are just so many other things to consider now. And because music turns around so fast for the CHR, you have to constantly be keeping an eye on that. And it's a fun challenge, though, like- and it introduces you to a lot of new music that I don't think you would otherwise be paying attention to, which is- which is really fun. For the CHR brand, I would say just staying on top of- on top of what's- what's hot. Tara Sands (Voiceover)  18:11 Transcription of the Sound Off Podcast is powered by the You May Also Like podcast- the show about people, places and things. Follow the show on your favorite podcast app, or at YouMayAlsoLike.net. Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  18:27 This podcast supports podcasting 2.0. So feel free to send us a boost if you're listening on a new podcast app. Find your new app now at podcasting2.org/apps. That's podcasting2.org/apps. Matt Cundill  18:41 Back in 2014, I thought I was really super cutting edge. And I thought, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna follow the Shazam charts. And I'm gonna be very much ahead of everybody. And look at that, I can- I can tap into the API and the back end and I can see who locally is Shazam-ing what, and I thought, okay, great. I've got a great edge. But you've got now so many tools that you and Lisa and everybody have to think about. So what are some of the things that you'll have to look at that go beyond- because it used to be just, you know, we're gonna look at the Billboard chart. Now, like, how do you find out like, what's trending on TikTok? How do you find out what songs are reacting in what places and the decision to make to get that on the radio? Sarah Christie  19:22 Shazam is a funny one, because I do look at that. But Shazam is funny because you go- you know, sometimes you'll find yourself going, are they Shazam-ing it because they hate it, and want to go, what is this? Or are they Shazam-ing it because they really like it and want to hear it again? Oftentimes, we end up coming to the conclusion that it's more often than not, you're Shazam-ing something because you like it and you want to add it to your playlist. You know, you're at a restaurant and you're Shazam-ing it quickly. Yeah, so I mean, TikTok is great because it has literally trending songs, a whole category of them, but it's also you know, if you spend enough time on there, you'll pick it up quite fast that the video you're seeing over and over and over again is- is trending, is now becoming a trending song. I look at iTunes, I look at Spotify. Like I look at the competitors. You know, media base is obviously an incredible tool for grabbing data. But there's just so many external resources now that you want to pull from to see. And it's- and it's also fun watching the trends too, like Tracy Chapman, you know, as we record this, the Grammys just passed. So Tracy Chapman, Fast Car is at the top of every chart right now. And then what I think is fun about CHR is you can look at that stuff and go, how do we play with it in this moment in time, because things turn around so fast. And yeah, there's- there's a lot of external sources to keep an eye on now. Practice by Drake, which I saw that that started climbing on Spotify and Shazam this past week, so then I had to go, why is that? Is it in a show? Is it in a movie? Why is this song trending? Finally figured out, it's on TikTok, but like that keeps happening. And it's suddenly now things we have to consider when we go sit down for a music meeting. Okay, let's talk about Fast Car for a sec. Because it was three hours after the Grammys that it gets to number one on the iTunes chart. And if I were in radio in your position, I'd be like, okay, how do I cope with this tomorrow at work? Because now we gotta get it on. Do we have to think about how we're going to rotate it and present it for the week? But let's talk about presentation. Because if I don't watch the Grammys, and/or I missed the show, or whatever, I feel like I'm gonna need some context as to why the radio station is playing it. How does that work? The way we're set up now is, there's still a lot of local freedom and opportunity for- that's such a morning show thing to run with, in my opinion. And so they would be the ones who I think are going to really sell that. And so if it was on air, they have it, they can do that locally. If I'm just deciding that everyone wants to do this same bit and talk about the same thing, you know, it's not really up to us. So that's kind of a local- local opportunity there. Presumptuous is the word I was looking for. Matt Cundill  22:14 And most of this music that we are hearing, they're not shared experiences anymore. And I thought they did such a good job at the Grammys, whenever they would- before the artists would perform, there was a backstory and a one minute preview as to the why, how it came together, why this is important. And one thing I know it did was, the story kept me on the couch. And instead of saying, here's a rap song, which will make me go and make a sandwich, or cause me to go and maybe check my phone or do something else, I would watch the story. Okay, there's the story. I want to watch the song now. And so that's when I bring it up. I mean, another one that comes to mind that I- like, how did you handle this? Was- was Kate Bush, Running Up That Hill. Sarah Christie  23:04 So we featured that song. And we do have a couple of fun features and opportunities to test music. Lightly test music, you know, your classic like this or that like things like that, where listeners can text in and vote on- and so anytime songs like that present themselves, those are really great resources to lean on, or simply using our call out research. Like if this song- Kate Bush is a great example, we threw that in our call out research because we didn't know what to do with it, especially considering it was kind of the first of what we now see is just a wave of trends deciding that a song from 10 years ago, 20 years ago is going to be popular now. Like social trends deciding. So I think just being open to the data, seeing what we're seeing and going okay, well, let's give it a shot. Let's test it. And if it sounds awful, let's figure out another way to test it. And until- until we figure out a way to make it sound good on air. Yeah, Kate Bush was a great example. Even Luke Combs, Fast Car. That really threw us for a curve because it's a country song. It's a Tracy Chapman cover. There- it got to a point where, you know, the data, you can't deny it. So it's just- yeah, really reading into that. Matt Cundill  24:19 But you're not terribly averse to too much country on a CHR station. I mean, I'm not saying you're going to inundate the airwaves. But to have a country song sort of cross the desk. And what comes to mind is the one where the- last night we let the liquor talk. Sarah Christie  24:32 Yeah. Matt Cundill  24:33 You know, it's number one everywhere and winding up in places- you play it, right? Sarah Christie  24:38 Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that is, I mean, another beast of CHR is just that it's the place for crossover. So you know, right now, Noah Kahan is everywhere, but folk indie singer, maybe even a little country and then you're gonna have that side by side with a hip hop song and it's just whatever's hot. You do have your core artists obviously, but it's- again, what do people want to hear? Matt Cundill  25:02 I mean, the narrative inside radio is that CHR is suffering and it's not doing as well. And it's all changed. And it's different. It sounds like it's doing great. And it sounds like it's a lot of fun. And it sounds like the biggest songs are getting played. So people inside radio are saying that these are tough days for CHR. It's not like it once was. But it sounds to me like it's the greatest time ever for CHR, because the best songs are getting played. Sarah Christie  25:28 That's- yeah, that's an interesting- and we hear it all the time. It's an interesting perspective. But, you know, then you see, you open streaming charts, and you see the top of Spotify, iTunes, Billboard, whatever you're looking at, are the artists and songs that you're going to be hearing on a CHR station. So sure, maybe that's your perspective. But it is, like we're still playing what people want to hear. It's- and- and music you always hear comes in cycles, too, right? When Justin Bieber came out with What Do U Mean, and Sorry, there was that tropical kind of pop sound that we heard for the next three years. And then Post Malone came out, and we heard the kind of Lo Fi rapping. And so if somebody hates that kind of music, that's- totally. So if that's not really what you migrate to, then of course, you're going to think that this is not a great time. But as long as the people behind the scenes are willing to look at what people want to hear, then it's fun. Matt Cundill  26:26 You said call out research. Sarah Christie  26:29 Yeah, yeah. Matt Cundill  26:29 Who answers their phone? Sarah Christie  26:32 We're not literally calling. No, no, no, it's uh, yeah, email. Matt Cundill  26:36 Okay. Sarah Christie  26:37 Still old school because it's an email and not a text. Matt Cundill  26:40 That makes sense now. Sarah Christie  26:41 Yeah. Matt Cundill  26:42 Interviews, artists coming by the station. Virgin is a brand that rolls out across the country. And I'll just throw Katy Perry's coming to the station. How do you handle the interview? Shannon Burns does the interview, what happens to it after the interview is over? Sarah Christie  26:58 It depends on where it's being shared. But we have a powerhouse team of editors who have built an incredible studio, it looks so cool, in what used to be Lisa Grassi's music department office that was so iconic. Because it had this- it still does have this CD backdrop wall, and filled with then all the archive CDs, which are now gone. And when I worked with Lisa, back at CHUM, it was just so fun bringing all the artists in there because you could see their eyes kind of light up and all the music that was in there. But now that we've kind of shuffled places around in the building, the iHeart team has turned that into a filming studio. And so once they do their interviews that goes back and chopped up and shared across podcast platforms, websites, social media is available for announcers to use on air as well. So a lot of exposure streams now with social media and various content platforms existing you know, especially with the iHeartRadio app being one of our tools. Matt Cundill  28:02 In what category do we put the move brand?  It's AC. Yeah.  Do we even have Hot AC anymore? Sarah Christie  28:09 CHUM FM is still Hot AC, yeah, yeah, for sure. So like MOVE has their no repeat work day. And the playlists, I mean, if you look at them side by side, are completely different. So yeah, like there are songs that you would hear on CHUM, that you might hear on Virgin, but you would never hear on MOVE. So yeah, there's stepping stones there. For sure. Matt Cundill  28:29 So I was thinking about programming rules the other day, and I'm trying to think are there more rules? Are there less rules? Or are they different than maybe 15 years ago? So we talked about things like artist separation. I think these are a little bit obvious. But when you look at a quarter hour, and we'll talk CHR, for instance, what makes up an ideal quarter hour of listening, in terms of like song sequence and types of songs? Sarah Christie  28:53 That's a funny question, just based on one of the conversations I had with Lisa today, where we were talking about how a lot of it is DIY. And that's just because of all the artist separation and genre bending music that exists now, where you listen to the song you go, I don't know how to- I know what I don't want to hear this play next to, but I don't know how to categorize this song. We do a lot of big research that kind of determines what would be our main styles, or that people want to hear. And so you- you would program based on a 15 minute turnover, right? Someone getting in the car and running groceries, you want to make sure that whatever they hear in that 15 minute errand are reflective of the biggest songs and their favorite songs. So through that we have like our power, our current categories and our recurring categories, and you just want to make sure that they're balanced in such a way that if someone is running- running a quick errand, they hear that exact mixture of music. Matt Cundill  29:54 And how do you handle those downtempo weird songs? And we are moving into a bit of an era here where like, downtempo songs will show up. Olivia Rodrigo, Driver's License. It's tough to cushion it around some songs. And I have to suspect that the Billie Eilish song, What Was I Made For, would also be maybe a bit of a challenge. Sarah Christie  30:13 It is and it isn't. And I say it isn't only because those songs are massive. People love them. And- and so when we hear it with our programming ears, we go, oh my God, no, you can't play that that's going to put people to sleep, they're going to be- they're going to tune out. No, people, people love it, and they want to hear it. So you- you treat it like a big song. And obviously, if it's slow, you want to make sure that you're carefully placing other tempos around it. So you don't sound like a slow dance station. But that's a perfect example of okay, yeah, we gotta be careful with that one because of the tempo, and you want CIHR to be upbeat and moving people forward. But also, you have to just acknowledge that this is what people want to hear. Matt Cundill  30:53 I'm really glad you're here to answer all these questions. Because I mean, I haven't really done a lot of music on radio since 2015. I haven't touched a Music Master selector since then. And these are questions, I still wonder if- if- you know, what's changed inside the music department? So you did mention Media Base. How much does it matter, you know, the aggregate of other radio stations and what they're playing? And I mention that because I really don't think it's a big deal, you know, to try to be stealing share from other radio stations, when I think the goal is to really try to capture people's encounters with their TikTok or with their TV viewing experience, or with all those other things and the Shazam-ing that's going on, how much do you drill down on media base to find out what your competition is into? And how much does that affect the decision that you make? Sarah Christie  31:41 We definitely use it, we use it consistently. The weight is hard to gauge, just because there are so many things that we're looking at now. They all kind of worked in concert, you know, so you go, okay, well, this is happening on Spotify. And then I saw this on Media Base. And, and you know, sometimes if they're different, that becomes the deciding factor, you know, if there's- just going to make up a number, if there's six people in the music meeting, and four of them agree with what's happening on Spotify versus media base, then okay, maybe we'll go with the Spotify thing, and I wouldn't put more weight on one just because of the audiences that are available on all of it. Matt Cundill  32:20 Well, maybe it's a little bit different, that you use it in a different way than maybe 10 years ago. We used to look at before, what are they playing the most of? And can we copy that? Sarah Christie  32:28 Yeah. Matt Cundill  32:29 That's not an effective strategy today. But do you go in and look for the anomalies, then, of what stations are- Sarah Christie  32:35 Oh yeah, yeah, for sure. You know, it's also handy to look at- America, we are completely different markets. And that's important to say, because, you know, you want to see the trends that are happening across the border, for sure. But also keep in mind that we're just different markets, and what they can get away with is different from what we can get away with, and what our audiences want to hear. But it is interesting, because if you see suddenly 10 stations, 10 CHR, major CHR stations are all really supporting this one song that we're kind of considering, well, that's telling, and it's- you know, and it's- so there is weight to it, for sure. Matt Cundill  33:10 You've also done some podcasting. I can't remember, I think it was one or two podcasts. I think you had one about being vegan. Sarah Christie  33:17 Yeah, that was- it was called Vegans Have More Fun. That was a fun, fun podcast. Matt Cundill  33:21 Do they? Sarah Christie  33:23 I'd like to think so. I had a blast. So no complaints, 10 out of 10. Matt Cundill  33:28 But you're still vegan, right? Sarah Christie  33:30 I am still a vegan. Yeah. Matt Cundill  33:32 And now you've got one, Earth Care. Tell me why you like podcasting. And contrast it to radio, by the way, because your life is radio. So much of it is radio, so much of it is in the now, but here's something completely different. Sarah Christie  33:44 Definitely the curiosity, and talking to people, and just this new outlet to storytell, I think, is so special about podcasting and- and the creative freedom of it is also so unique to podcasting. And just like TikTok I think, you learn that there's an audience for everything. You know, how many of us have opened TikTok and gone, wow, there's a million views on this video of this woman cleaning her counter and- because there's an audience for it, and so, if you, I think, are really passionate about something and willing to give it the TLC it deserves, because podcasting is a lot of work. Like you know. Yeah, it just is such a great challenge and a great way to meet new people and- and storytell. Matt Cundill  34:35 By the way, when we did last see each other, Toronto was like drenched in smoke, and- like forest fire smoke. I think you were just finished choking and asphyxiating yourself in the middle of the hotel lobby after biking in through the smoke. But what is the biggest challenge when it comes to climate change and keeping our earth clean? Sarah Christie  34:55 Biggest challenge, okay. I'm gonna- I'm gonna talk on an individual level, because the biggest challenge is much bigger than you and I. I think the biggest challenge is the lack of conversation about it. And I say that because the conversation is a gateway into understanding that you are entitled to care, you're entitled to talk about it, you are entitled to engage in these conversations and- and recognize that, you know, what some of these companies or governments are doing and how they're spending their money does impact us and affect us. And so I don't know if it's too politicized, which it shouldn't be, or if it's a lack of awareness, but just there has to be more conversation, because that's how it starts. Matt Cundill  35:42 Yeah, I'm gonna agree with you. I find it bizarre that conversation about climate change always seems to degenerate into some sort of, you know, amorphous boogeyman about a tax, about a solution. And every time there's a solution that involves climate change, there's this strange, bizarre pushback from people. And by the way, I'm as right wing as they come. Not that far right wing, but I do like to, you know, put my vote in the Conservative box. And I will point out that the Mulrooney Conservatives did more for climate change than any other government. You know, the Progressive Conservatives, that used to be our thing, was the environment. And then at one point, it stopped it. But when you make a suggestion about a 15 minute city in a place like Calgary, Edmonton or Winnipeg, you get these people who come up with these crazy conspiracy theories, and I just want a grocery store- I wanna be able to bike to the grocery store, and I want to be able to bike to downtown Winnipeg without getting run over by a semi. And I want to be able to just, you know, not have to pay huge city taxes for roads that are going to get beat up. And it's just money, money, money. It's my tax money getting eaten up. It's just- it seems crazy. People are a little bit- they don't really want to engage in civil and proper conversation, when it comes to, you know, things we can do to make the earth a little bit better. By the way, it's also going to save you a few bucks. Sarah Christie  37:00 It is. That is always my selling point. It's going to save you money. There are so many things about individual climate action that are gonna save you money, that how can you argue with that? Matt Cundill  37:11 I have a car. And I thought, I think there's a possibility I could live without a car. You know, I travel in Europe. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, I can live without a car. I can take the train. I can take public transit. It's pretty nice. No, I live in Winnipeg. But it's possible, it can be done. Sarah Christie  37:27 Yeah, that was absolutely surreal. CMW. And it was the wildfire smoke from Northern Ontario, Quebec. That was one of those days, though, where I'm walking around and going, how are we not all talking about this? How is this not the main topic of conversation? This is- this is climate change hitting us in the face right now. This has never happened. And yeah, I don't know how that doesn't shake you a little bit to want to do something. Matt Cundill  37:57 Yeah. Well, I'm glad you got your podcast to- to keep us up to date on the situation. I think- Earthcare. You can find it on your favorite iHeart app. There's only one iHeart app. Sarah, what do you think is- what are you looking forward to in 2024 with- with radio? Expectations and hopes? Sarah Christie  38:16 I think it's inspiring, I guess, to see all of the new content that, whether it's on air or behind the scenes, that people are coming up with and finding different ways to, you know, turn their show into a podcast, or pull a podcast clip and turn it into, you know, something for social media, and just how it's all so intertwined. So it really drives the rest of us to keep learning and not get cozy. If that makes sense. Matt Cundill  38:45 It does, it does. By the way, you've got a dream job. The job you've got is, like, one of the ones that is just, you know, coveted and one that I always wanted and it was a goal, you know, going up and going through the radio ranks. I think it's one of the fun ones. And that's why I asked all these programming questions, because I'm curious. Sarah Christie  39:00 It is very fun. It's- it's very fun. And I just said I wasn't gonna say that word again. But it is, it truly is. It's- you're playing with music. You get to be a champion of music and there's no single person on Earth that doesn't like music. Matt Cundill  39:14 Thanks so much for doing this. I appreciate it. Sarah Christie  39:16 Thank you for having me. Tara Sands (Voiceover)  39:17 The Sound Off Podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski. Edited by Chloe Emond-Lane. Social media by Aidan Glassey. Another great creation from the Soundoff Media Company. There's always more at soundoffpodcast.com.

Seth Resler joins to explore the dynamic intersection of podcasting and community marketing. Reflecting on radio's digital evolution, Resler discusses content overload and the challenges of standing out in a saturated market. The conversation dives into the pivotal role of community building, particularly in the pandemic era, as a means of fostering engagement and connection. Insights on podcast monetization and social media dynamics add depth to this conversation, offering valuable strategies for content creators seeking to navigate the evolving digital landscape. Full Show Notes compiled by the AI Machine. Podcasting and Community Marketing: Seth Resler introduces his latest venture, Community Marketing Revolution, and shares insights from his extensive experience in radio and podcasting. Radio's Digital Strategy and Content Overload: Reflecting on his time at Jacobs Media, Ressler discusses frustrations with radio's digital strategy and the challenges of creating and distributing content in a fast-paced media environment. Content Abundance and Consumer Choice: Cundill and Resler delve into the impact of content oversaturation on creators and consumers, highlighting the struggle to find quality content amidst an abundance of options. Community Building and Virtual Events during the Pandemic: Resler emphasizes the importance of community building, especially during the pandemic, and shares insights on fostering connections through virtual events. Podcasting, Community Building, and Monetization: Resler discusses the significance of community building in podcasting and explores opportunities for monetization through sponsorships and collaborations. Social Media Platforms and Community Building: Cundill and Resler examine the evolving role of social media platforms in community building, discussing recent changes and trends in content creation and distribution. Building a Community for Arts and Entertainment Brands: Cundill and Resler explore strategies for building communities around arts and entertainment brands, emphasizing the importance of identifying target audiences and tailoring content to their needs. Community Building and Rewards in Podcasting: Cundill and Resler discuss the value of incentives and rewards in community building, sharing insights on fostering engagement and strengthening relationships with listeners. In this engaging discussion, Cundill and Resler offer valuable insights and practical strategies for navigating the evolving landscape of podcasting and community marketing. TRANSCRIPTION Tara Sands (Voiceover)  00:02 The Sound Off Podcast. The show about podcast and broadcast starts now. Matt Cundill  00:13 Seth Resler has appeared on the show a few times before as digital dot connector at Jacobs media. We spoke about what radio can do in the digital sandbox. We also talked about the skills personalities have, and being more than just what's on your resume. We've also done an episode on his podcast The Debrief, which was a geo-local show about the arts and entertainment scene in Detroit. Now you may not have caught this over the Christmas holidays and New Year's, but Seth departed Jacobs Media and started Community Marketing Revolution. I'm excited for Seth, because throughout the pandemic, we have been talking about the power of community when it comes to your podcast, your radio station, your show, your- whatever you got. If your only idea of metrics has been Cume, TSL, downloads and impressions, Seth is about to change your thinking. Now Seth Resler joins me from Detroit. Seth, how you been? Ah, that's not the first question, I'm kidding. Seth Resler  01:08 Oh, okay. Matt Cundill  01:10 No, I'm not kidding. Seth, how you been? Seth Resler  01:14 I'm good. I'm good. How have you been? Matt Cundill  01:17 I've been really good. Seth Resler  01:17 Is it too late to say Happy New Year? Matt Cundill  01:19 Let me be the last to wish you a happy new year. Seth Resler  01:22 Yeah, yes, you too. Matt Cundill  01:24 Yeah. Last we spoke was at- was at Podcast Movement. But I didn't necessarily see this coming that you would be departing from- from Jacobs Media. Yeah, Seth Resler  01:33 Yeah, this is- this is exciting. I mean, this is something that I have been- it's been rolling around in the back of my head. And I've been thinking about for a long time, and finally pulled the trigger. My last day with Jacobs Media was December 31st, end of last year, and I just announced last week, as we're recording this, that I've got a brand new boutique agency. It's called Community Marketing Revolution. And really what I want to focus on is showing arts and entertainment brands. That includes radio and television broadcasters. But it also cos- also includes things like museums or event producers, or really anybody in the arts and entertainment industry. I want to show them how to launch and grow their own community. And it's something that's just really been a fascination of mine for a couple years now. Matt Cundill  02:16 So you got to Jacobs Media in 2015, we had you on the podcast a number of times, and always excited to talk to you because we talked a lot about the digital space and how radio interacted in there. When you started in 2015 to when you left in 2023, I'm not going to stick this on you like like pin the tail on the donkey and say, did you leave it in a better place than you found it? But when you look at radio and how they're interacting with digital today, how much improvement has there been? Seth Resler  02:17 Same. Not enough, to be blunt. The strategy that I learned, and my history is that I came up through alternative rock radio, I was an on air guy. And then I was a program director, I was one of these guys that moved from city to city and bounced every couple of years and packed up all my stuff, and was fortunate to work at some great radio stations. I left and went into Silicon Valley, which is where I grew up, and learned a lot of digital marketing tactics there. And in particular, learned content marketing, which is a strategy that we all know as broadcasters, which is create content, attract an audience and then monetize that audience. But companies were really starting to use that strategy, really online, in a way that radio broadcasters were not. And so my goal was to bring that content marketing strategy to broadcasters. And frankly, it was- it was tough, it was uphill, because they don't have the resources in terms of staff and budget for this, and what's really happening out there- and one of the things that ultimately led me to community building- was that there's just this content arms race, just everybody is pumping out more and more and more content. I mean, I was thinking about it as I'm putting together this speech. I was the music director at The End in Seattle, and I was an off air music director at a radio station that had an off air PD, an off air APD, an off air promotions director, an off air assistant promotions director. First of all, you don't see those kinds of off air positions anymore at all. But back then we really had two content streams, we had the stuff that went over the air, and we were putting out an email newsletter once a week. Now, radio broadcasters are being asked to put out all these different content streams. Not only what goes over the air, not only the email newsletter, but obviously everything to social media, Facebook, Instagram, Tik Tok, podcasts, YouTube videos, you name it, they have to pump out that much more content, and they have far less staff and far less budget to do so. And meanwhile, everybody else is pumping out more content too. So there's- there's just this situation where there's just too much damn content out there, and we're drowning in it, and broadcasters are struggling to keep up. So too much content. Is that a problem for the consumer? It's a problem for the people who are making the content, and choices need to be made. So help me, because we're creating content right now. What are some of the things you're going to look at in order to cut through the clutter? Yeah, I mean, look, it's great for the consumer. It's never been better for the consumer, there are more choices than ever. There were two Hollywood strikes last year. I didn't notice either one, because my backlog of content that I had to consume was so big that, you know, the extent of the impact of the strike in my household was, hey, do you wanna watch Saturday Night Live? No, I think they're on strike this week. Oh, okay. We'll watch something else. That- that was it. So it's- it's great for the consumer. There are more viewpoints that are being offered through content that weren't offered before. But yeah, it's- it's really tough for the content creators, and particularly the content creators that are creating big expensive content that takes a lot of money and a lot of effort to get out, you know, the everyday person who's just going there and shooting something on YouTube and has figured out how to monetize that, they're doing fine. And you're seeing it in the legacy media companies, which suffered huge layoffs last year, over 20,000 media jobs last year. And I think that's a result of just too much content. And these revenue models that are left over from a world where there were three television networks, there were a couple of newspapers and a handful of radio stations in each market. And that was it. That was all you were competing against when you were looking for the audience's attention. Now, there's so much that we're competing against, that those old revenue models just aren't working anymore. Matt Cundill  06:32 Yeah, I didn't want to let you know that I found it a problem for consumers of content. When I think of a problem for consumers consuming content, I think of the hide and seek game that has to be played in order to find it. It's harder to find, so yeah, a different problem. But- but to your point, yeah, I didn't really notice there was a writer's strike either. Seth Resler  06:52 There is that. The way that I describe it is, my girlfriend and I have a ritual, right? We like- at night, we sit down on the couch, we log into Netflix, or Hulu, or Amazon Prime, there's 600 shows, we've never heard of any of them. Right? And here's what happens to us is we- you know, we'll sit there, we'll watch a trailer, and neither one of us will like it, we'll pass. We'll watch a trailer, I'll like it, but she has veto power. So we pass. Watch a trailer, it's the flip, we start cross referencing things against Rotten Tomatoes. And before we know it an hour and a half has gone by and we've done nothing but watch trailers. And it's like, okay, it's time to go to bed. So yes, there is that- that too much choice, and the paralysis that comes with that. That's one of the things that I started to notice, is that now I have a conversation, every time I get together with friends. There's a point inevitably where the conversation turns to, so what have you been watching lately? And every single television show I've found out about has been from other people, it's been filtered through my community. So that's how I found out about, you know, The Bear or Abbott Elementary or all these other shows that I've been watching, is somebody told me about them. So that was one of the things that ultimately led me to this community space, was watching community become the filter that people are using to wade through all the content. Matt Cundill  08:07 And some of the things that you've done, we actually dedicated a whole episode to this, was the geo-local podcast when you were doing The Debrief. I kind of felt when you were doing The Debrief, which was a Detroit based show, that that's a community, that's in Detroit, so- but this is different, what you're doing. How does geolocation sort of factor into community building? Seth Resler  08:29 Yeah, so The Debrief ultimately led me to the community space, I wouldn't say that The Debrief as a podcast was a community, it reflected a community. And I want to get specific here, because this is a word that gets thrown around a lot, particularly in the radio space, where we go, oh, my DJs are local, so community, or oh, we do a concert calendar or we do local news, so community. What we're really talking about when we talk about community is that we are building a space for people who have a shared mission, a shared goal, to get together and connect with each other. What happened with The Debrief is we were producing content. We were producing multiple episodes a week that were- you know, we interviewed over 300 museum curators, restaurant critics, comedy club owners, just anybody involved in the arts and culture scene. And there was this global pandemic, shut everything down. We didn't want to sit there and go, oh, we're doing another episode. Hey, this restaurant, guess what, they got curbside pickup this week, you know, it just got old. And so we- you know, I hate to use the word, but we did what everybody did, we pivoted, and I discovered some virtual event software. And we started hosting these meetups for Detroit artists and entertainers, where they could come together and network and mingle and meet with each other. And it was in a lot of ways similar, but- but totally different. And it was really what we wanted, was that we were creating a space where people could come together and could connect with one another. And that's what I mean, I think, when- when we say community, so it grew out of that. But it wasn't that to begin with, it was just sort of a reflection of that. And that ultimately led me to starting to look into the community building space, starting to really study it, starting to look at what Silicon Valley companies in particular are doing with community building and how that works. And ultimately led me to launch this company. Matt Cundill  10:21 I felt in the pandemic for radio stations, that- and we saw this with the numbers- is that, you know, a lot of the commuter listening disappeared. And what morning shows and stations were really left with was the diehards, people who listen twice as much and longer. And community began to get born out of that, as well. And so much so, I mean, you had the software that you were doing, for instance, the P odcast Academy, we all got together to do that. We did some with Podcast Movement, we did a bunch of stuff like that. And I really liked, you know, getting that stuff together. So tell me about the piece of software, and what you learned from getting us together on all those meetups during the pandemic, when we were so lonely. Seth Resler  11:03 Yeah, so this software is called Remo, it's not mine. You know, I stumbled into it. Actually, where we found it was- Jacobs Media every year put together a VIP tour of CES when we take out, you know, radio executives to the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas. And one year, at the very last minute, CES said, nope, we're going virtual. And so we were scrambling, we didn't know how to put it all together. And we found out about this platform, actually, from CMB, the Christian Music Broadcasters, and I had about two weeks to learn how to use this platform. And it's a great platform, you've been on it, you've been to some of the events, it's essentially got two modes. One mode is called presentation mode, which is- it's a webinar, it's- you know, just everybody's looking at the same thing. And there's a chat box on the side. The other mode is called conversation mode. And what happens in that is, you are looking at a floorplan of a ballroom. And if you double click on a table, you join that table. And now you are video conference with everybody at that table. And you can move from table to table to table of your own accord. So unlike Zoom, where you're locked into a breakout room, you can kind of walk around the room and meet people. And that's what I found that it was really valuable for was, you know, if you've got just a meeting with 8 people who all know each other, Zoom is fine. But if you want people to make new connections, to meet new people, this platform was great for it. We had a moment where we were hosting one of these meetups for Detroit artists and entertainers and guy comes, you know, I asked him what he does. He says I fix up computers, and I give them to kids who can't afford computers. He said, I want to turn it into a nonprofit organization. And I said, well, what do you need to do that? He said, well, I need more computers, and I need more kids. And I said, okay, you should meet this woman. Her name is Anne Jatamac. She runs a nonprofit called Arts and Scraps, which does essentially the same thing, but for art supplies. And I pulled her over and I introduced the two of them. And I sat and I watched them talk for 45 minutes. And what I later found out is they now talk about once a month, they're still in contact, and she has given him a lot of advice. And he's actually been able to turn this into a nonprofit organization. He's in three states now. And so it's that kind of moment, those connections, that where you don't expect that something's going to come out of it. But something does. And it's great. And it turns out that there's a word for it, the word is serendipity. And you cannot make serendipity happen. But you can do what's called engineering serendipity, you can create conditions under which serendipity is more likely to happen. And that's what we're doing when we're talking about building spaces where community members can gather, is we are creating conditions under which those kinds of just fortuitous connections can happen, and maybe something great can come out of it. Maybe somebody forms a band or forms a company or gets married, you know, you never know. That's what it is. And so we started doing these virtual events, and started playing with them in other arenas. Like you said, I did one for Podcast Movement, we did one for the podcast editors club, did various others, and started to learn how you create that space and how you make that serendipity happen. And that's- that was what was really exciting for me. Matt Cundill  14:05 So let's talk a little bit about generating revenue. Because some of the most unhappy podcasters I have dealt with in the last couple of years are the ones who are waiting for ad money to make their lives happier. And that's hard. And it's just one way to monetize. The most successful podcasters I've found are the ones that do have some form of community, something to sell inside there, and are generating revenues many, many different ways. And I think you've already identified that. So tell me a little bit about why that relationship that you have with your community is going to lead you to more ways to monetize. Seth Resler  14:41 Yeah, I think because it becomes really obvious who to monetize to, or how to monetize it, who the sponsors are going to be. You know, one of the examples that I always kept coming back to and I always kept looking at are, you know, Dan and Jarrett, our friends who are running Podcast Movement, and what they have built with that conference, I think, is really amazing. And I think they would tell you that some of the community building aspects of it, they didn't purposely build, they kind of stumbled into it, but- but they knew enough to recognize it and grow it and feed it. Look, at the end of the day, Podcast Movement, largest podcasting conference in the world, about 3000 people. 3000 is not a huge number. I mean, just for comparison's sake, I used to DJ in a club in Providence on Saturday nights and we'd get almost that many people in in the club, right? It's not huge. But if you're Rode Microphones, you know, and you've got the RodeCaster 2, and all these different, you know, gear that you built specifically for podcasters, you need to be there, right? Like this is marked on your calendar, well, in advance, you don't care if the staff's got COVID, we're going to Podcast Movement, because it's that important, because it's everybody that you need to be in touch with, in one place. And I think that's what happens with community. But this is why a community has to be a group of people with a shared mission, whatever that is, a shared goal. You know, in the case of Podcast Movement, we're all podcasters who want to become better podcasters. And so we get together, and we talk to each other and communicate with each other, trade tips and tricks and things like that. And that's why it works. So I'm going to be speaking in Las Vegas later this week, and I'm speaking to alternative rock and rock radio program directors, and I used to be one of them. And if I were still a program director, the community that I would start with would be a community of local musicians, is how do we build a space for local musicians to come together? And, you know, how can we help them become better local musicians? And frankly, I think if you did that, the sponsors would be obvious, like Guitar Center, you know. What? You've got everybody who plays a guitar all in one roof? Yes, absolutely. I want to- I want to sponsor that. So I think it makes sense, once you have a real handle on who your community is, exactly how you monetize it, and it becomes a no brainer for the sponsors to get on board. Matt Cundill  16:54 Well, if 3000 is not that much, you're going to be disappointed with this podcast, because that's what we get for downloads every month. Seth Resler  17:02 But the thing is- is it's the right people. I mean, you probably have radio broadcasters and podcasters listening to this, you know, and if it's the right people, that's what matters. I mean, I think coming from radio, we're all used to the- what we always called the spray and pray technique when it comes to advertising. It's just hit everybody and hope that some of the right people are in the audience and respond. This is the idea of, let's go after the right people. And it's okay if we're hitting fewer people overall, as long as we're- we're hitting the people that we really need to be talking to. Matt Cundill  17:34 Yeah, and I think back to Dan and Jared, and Podcast Movement, and the Facebook group that they have has 50,000 people in it. Seth Resler  17:42 Oh, it's- it's more than that. It's like 80,000, 90,000, it's up there now. It's huge. Matt Cundill  17:47 Yeah, and most of the people in there don't even know that it's attached to a podcast conference. Seth Resler  17:52 Right. And this is one of the things that I really wanted to- to work on, is that there were these various pieces. And we've touched on some of them. Virtual events, in person events, online groups, like a Facebook group, like a LinkedIn group. And so you had those different pieces. And I was very curious about how those pieces work together. I mean, this is coming back to my days as the digital dot connector of Jacobs Media, how do you connect those dots, put them together? And if you want to launch your own community, what do you start with? And what goes first, and what goes second, and what goes third? You know, it's- it's tough to launch a huge event like that right out of the gate, because it's a lot of money and it's a lot of time and it's a lot of risk if you don't know if you're gonna have people who show up, so I've been working on that community building blueprint. That's ultimately what this new company's built around. Tara Sands (Voiceover)  18:41 Transcription of the Sound Off Podcast is powered by the Podcast Super Friends, five podcast producers who get together to discuss podcasting. Sharpen your podcast and creation skills by following the show on the Sound Off Podcast's YouTube or Facebook page. Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  18:59 This podcast supports podcasting 2.0, so feel free to send us a boost if you're listening on a new podcast app. Find your new app now at podcasting2.org/apps. That's podcasting2.org/apps. Matt Cundill  19:14 I can't remember if I was on a show, or I was a part of the show. But the word community came up like five times during the podcast about- I think, something about how to grow your podcast, and I do a few of these things every week. I didn't mention it. But I think maybe in the roundtable discussion, it came up many, many times. But I also think that there are platforms like Facebook that are beginning to identify and understand the power of community, and I'll give this example of the conspiracy theory that I thought up in the middle of a yoga class. And that's- Facebook is, in the community groups, has stopped allowing video companies like Streamyard, third party wants to come in to stream content into Facebook. They're cutting that off, and I think Facebook has probably had a meeting with itself and determined that well, we want to keep the video in house, and we want to be the sole proprietary people of who- who would carry that video and sell the message. So how's my conspiracy theory doing? And I guess the question I would ask you is, when it comes to social media, and you've been around all these platforms and places to put your content, how should we be interacting with them? Seth Resler  20:18 The decision you're talking about with regard to video and Facebook groups, I mean, surprised me as well. I'm in the eCam Live community, which is, you know, a sort of another version of Streamyard. And there's been a lot of talk about it there. And I know people in that community that are actually considering, okay, do we need to migrate our community to someplace else, because of this decision? I don't know why Facebook made that decision. Here's how I tend to think about it. I tend to think that when it comes to the internet and digital tools, over the course of the first 30-40 years of the internet, one of the big stories was publishing tools becoming more accessible to more people, that 30 years ago, if you wanted to reach a mass audience, you needed a printing press, a radio station, a television, you know, studio, something like that. And dozens of specialized experts in order to run it. It was hard. Now, anybody with a cell phone and internet connection can publish to the entire world. It's become much easier to create content and to publish that way. So I think you have this first class of tools that came from the internet, that are essentially publishing tools, you know, things like WordPress, things like YouTube, things like TikTok. You're now seeing the rise of this second class of tools that are space-building tools, where you can create a space for people to come together. And that's things like Facebook groups, LinkedIn groups, but also Slack. Also Zoom, also Discord, also these virtual event platforms, where you can build a space. Facebook is kind of unique in that Facebook and LinkedIn, have a little of both, right? Your Facebook newsfeed is essentially a publishing tool. But Facebook groups, which really is the main thing that I use Facebook for these days, that is a space-building tool. And again, LinkedIn has that too. But there is no- there's no real space building tool, for example, on Instagram, or Tiktok, where people can sort of come together and gather. They can comment on each other's stuff, but it's not the same thing. And so I tend to think of it that way. And I tend to think of, where are we going to build this online group? What tool are we going to use to do it? Facebook groups, you know, for a lot of reasons is a- is a good tool for something like that. But then sometimes some people make a decision to go somewhere else, to another platform, to do that as well. Matt Cundill  22:31 Yeah, I was thinking about things like Instagram, and Reels and TikToks. Those are turning into TV channels, YouTube as well. It's really- there's not a lot of community involved there, other than I like to laugh by myself. Seth Resler  22:43 Yeah, there was a- I guess, I think it was- I think it was the Atlantic had an article a couple of years ago, where they talked about social media, the evolution of social media, and how in the beginning, the emphasis was on the social part of social media, that really, this was a place to post photos of your kids, so that all your family members can see them. And it was really about impressing people that we already were connected to, that we already knew. At some point, social media pivoted and became about media, and really the media side of that equation, and became about creating content for people that we didn't know, where we're all creating television, you know, where we're all trying to do that. And I don't like that side of social media as much, because it's just- we're all content creators, we're all trying to attract our own audience, and everybody's just trying to scream and cut through and get their 15 minutes of fame. I prefer the relationship side of it, I prefer building those, and having those conversations and building those relationships. Matt Cundill  23:39 So one of the things that I've started to do is look at podcasts as having value, not necessarily in the number of downloads that you can get, but in its ability to get and to garner a community. When I started building podcasts for people, people are like, well, who do you take? And I said, I like entrepreneurs, companies and performers. How did I get to that? Well, that's the people who are calling me for help. And I see that's kind of a lot of the same thing that you're doing. But you know, comedians and bands and people who do festivals and Podcast Movement type grouping of people, but you know, it could also be churches, and it can also be bands. So, who's right to build a community? And I think it's everybody, isn't it? Seth Resler  24:22 Yeah, you know, I mean, it is everybody. And that was actually one of the things I struggled with when we first started this, you know, I met with an advisor, and I sat down and I said, I want to do this community building thing, and they said, great, who can use this? And I said, well, everybody, and she goes, that's a terrible answer. That can't be your answer. And she said something that I really thought about a lot. She said, look, it's not just about who could benefit from this, because may- you may be right, maybe everybody can. It's also, who do you want to work with every day when you get up in the morning? Who excites you? And that wasn't hard for me to figure out. I stopped and took a look my own life, and the running theme throughout my entire life is I like working with what I'll call artisans. And this is sort of a- it's arts and entertainment, but it's a broad interpretation of arts and entertainment. I've done stuff, you know, starting with musicians and disc jockeys, people who view what they do as a craft, and do something that's public facing. But then I started working a lot with restaurants, with food tour owners, operators, you know, I started working with comedians, and I started working with festival producers. And I started working with, you know, all these folks. And I really enjoyed it. I love that part of it. And so that was where I decided to say, okay, I want to do community building for arts and entertainment brands. You know, again, I'll do it for somebody else, if they come along. If you've got a bank, and you want to build a community around it, I'm not going to tell you no. But the folks that I get really excited about working with every day are those folks that view what they do as a craft, and something in the arts and entertainment space. Matt Cundill  26:00 And sometimes I'll say the same with a podcast. I'll go oh, there's a podcast here. And I remember back to a story that Fred Jacobs had where he was in a focus group. And somebody in the focus group said, I just love the recipes that he posts. And the personality was like, hey, you know, there's a podcast here of all the great things you're cooking at home, that you could talk about not. We're not talking about community building, but- just yet, but oh, there's a podcast in that. So I have a podcast, but I'm not thinking community wise yet. I've just been doing a podcast, I could build my business and do things. What's the mindset that I need to do to start thinking, oh, there's a community here, and I should be building that? Seth Resler  26:44 So first and foremost, you know, I saw somebody post about this on LinkedIn the other day, and they were thinking, oh, I've got a podcast, how do I build a community around it? Frankly, I think you should start with I've got a community, and how do I build content for that community? I think it goes the other way around, really. Again, what it comes down to is when we talk about building a community, what we're talking about is creating a space for a group of people who have some sort of shared mission to come together and connect with each other. So the first thing is, much like the first thing in radio, it's- it's figuring out who your community members are, and what is their mission? Great formulation for thinking about this is we are a group of x, who gathered to do y, because we believe in z, you know, and if you can fill in the attributes of your community members there, I think you're in a good space to start. But if you can't, I think it's problematic. I think you've really got to dial in, who are the community members and what are they trying to do? And we say, what are they trying to do- it's about what the members are trying to do, not just the organizers. Take Podcast Movement, for example, right? I mean, you and I would both consider ourselves part of the Podcast Movement community. Our goal is not to sell more tickets to Podcast Movement, that may be Dan and Jared's goal. But that's not our goal, our goal was to become better podcasters. That's the shared goal that we all have. A side benefit of that community for Dan and Jared is that it sells more tickets to their conference. But really, that's- that's the mission. And so I think once you figured out what the shared mission is, then I think you start to go, okay, what content can we create that will help people on that journey? Again, it's a lot of brainstorming. It's a lot of sitting here and going okay, what do we know about podcasters? I like to use personas, because I came up in radio, and that's an exercise that we always use to create personas as stand ins for the audience, to help us think about what kind of content the audience would like. Now, it's what kind of content would appeal to the community members? And so you think about podcasters. And you think about, you know, what are the things that they're all struggling to figure out? How do I get my podcast into iTunes? Or Apple podcasts, showing my age, there. Apple podcasts. How do I get my podcast into Spotify? What mic do I use, things like that, and creating content around that. And then if you've got some folks who are more advanced in the podcasting space, you know, you create content for them as well. But you also create opportunities for them to come together and connect. And so, is that answering your question? Is that telling you where to- where to go? And how to think about it? Matt Cundill  29:12 Absolutely. Yeah, a lot of people, they push me first, and I go, well, why would I do that? Or why would I want to do that? And I'll give you an example, going back to 2013. There was somebody on our digital team out of Toronto, I'll credit the person, it's Ira Haberman, who said you know, Matt, you should really think about this. Go find the person or the people who are opening up the newsletter every single day and getting to the end, and your heavy, super heavy users of your product. Go and give them a bunch of concert tickets to give away to their people, and tell other people about the radio station. Let them do the walking and the talking for you. And I said, well that sounds like a crazy idea, to give the prize pig or the over active person the- the tickets, but no, it's brilliant. And that was a form of of community building, the very same thing that you said, which is, oh, we're going to tell people about Podcast Movement if we're getting some benefit out of it in our community, and telling other people about the community. Seth Resler  30:13 Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. I think that's a big part of community is- in some ways, it's just- it's crowdsourcing, right? It's getting folks out there to do some of the work and be a part of it. And I think rewarding them for that is key. I will say that- and this is one of the things I learned as I started to study the space. You know, we all come from radio. So we're used to that term prize pig, which is just the guy who shows up and always wants to win all the prizes and participates in all the contests. And I think we always used to think of t-shirts and swag. And we thought of that wrong. And I credit David Spinks, who was the head of CMX, and talks about this in his book, about the difference between internal motivations and external motivations. The guys who are reading your newsletter to the end are doing it not because they want concert tickets, or because they want cash, or because they want some sort of, you know, monetary reward. They're doing it because they care, and because they feel good about it. And so how can you come up with rewards that reward that internal motivation, not the external motivation? One way to think about this is, if I need a ride to the airport, I can call Uber to have them take me, and they are externally motivated. If I pay them, they will do it. If I don't, they will not. I can also call up a friend of mine and say, hey, Joe, will you take me to the airport? And Joe is gonna say yes, and it's not a quid pro quo, Joe's just going to do it, because he's internally motivated. And if I thank Joe with- by taking him out to dinner, it's not, oh, I have to give Joe this in order to get a ride to the airport. It's- it's just a sign of my appreciation for him and for the relationship. And I think as you start to think about how can you reward people in your community, I think think about it that way, don't think about it as I'm bribing them, or they're prize pigs, think about I'm, you know, acknowledging the relationship, and showing them how much I appreciate it. And so in the community space, they talk about a lot of the different ways to do this. And frankly, it has a lot to do with status, with access, with letting people know that they are helping other people, because that's why people are motivated by it, they want to- they just want to help other people, you know, and so you can reward them, for example, with inside sneak peeks at something before anybody else gets to see it, right? Like that's just a status thing that a diehard fan- you know, think about being a diehard Taylor Swift Fan, if you got to hear the brand new Taylor Swift song before everybody else, that means something to you, even though there's no monetary value to that. So yeah, I mean, I think rewards play a role. I always come back to the bumper stickers and the  t-shirts, that we frankly, for the most part, stopped giving away in radio, right? This swag. And I think that was a mistake. And I think what we didn't realize is that we're giving these to people who already love us, who are already fans. And it's not about bribing them to listen, or- or hoping that they become billboards to convince other people to listen. It's about rewarding them and acknowledging that relationship. Hey, we appreciate you as a listener, and so we want to send this to you to show how much we appreciate you as a listener. I think that that's really important. Matt Cundill  33:13 As you're having that example, about the ride to the airport, I'm remembering back to your trip going to Podcast Movement where your car broke down on the way to the airport. Yes, Seth Resler  33:23 Yes it did. Yes it did. That was not fun. Matt Cundill  33:28 Yeah, the whole story came back. Seth Resler  33:30 But you know, you know who- who I wound up riding back with on the way home, because I didn't have my car at the airport, was- was JAG. Was Jon Gay, who I know is a regular on your podcast. Matt Cundill  33:41 Yeah, one of the Podcast Super Friends, we have an entirely other podcast called the Podcast Super Friends, of which we continue to build community around that. We all- Seth Resler  33:50 Right, and again, you know, Jon wasn't- it wasn't a- yes, I'll give you a ride home. But you got to buy me a beer. Like it was just, you know, it's- it's that- that's what you do. Matt Cundill  34:00 This is tremendously exciting that you're- that you're in here. And for those who want to reach out, you got a couple of offerings. One of them I see is a newsletter. And by the way, I just started up my newsletter again, because I'm taking my pages out of your book. So sign up for the Soundoff newsletter. Oh, and by the way, thank you very much for- you're the first person to ever say- we are doing this on video, right? Seth Resler  34:22 Yeah. And I have a face for radio. We know the old joke, and I don't feel entirely comfortable on video the whole time because I'm a radio guy, but video's where it's all going man. You know, I think you gotta be there. Matt Cundill  34:36 CommunityMarketingRevolution.com is the website, when we go there, I think there's two things that we pay attention to. One of them is the newsletter, and I think there's an opportunity where we can get together and reach out to you for some consulting. Seth Resler  34:48 Yes. And if I could direct people to one thing in there in particular, there is a guide to- called 50 Ways to Monetize a Community, because I know that that's what- people are all sitting there going okay, this community stuff sounds all fine and good. But at the end of the day, how do I generate revenue from it? And so I actually spelled that out, and you can download that for free and look through it. Hopefully there's something there and you go, oh, that makes sense for what I do. That makes sense for what I'm doing. Matt Cundill  35:14 Seth, thanks so much for being on the show. It's great. Thank you. Seth Resler  35:17 Yeah! Thank you for having me, Matt. It's good to see you. Tara Sands (Voiceover)  35:20 The Sound Off Podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski. Edited by Chloe Emond-Lane. Social media by Aidan Glassey. Another great creation from the Soundoff Media Company. There's always more at soundoffpodcast.com.