Matty Staudt is the owner of Jam Street Media, a board member of the Podcast Academy, about to launch Podle.co and .... looking for his next opportunity. All at once. In this episode, we are going to talk about podcasting growth and opportunities with industry experts, the pros and cons of remote work in the podcast industry, and his experience of starting a network, despite initial reservations, and the importance of cross-promotion within the network. As two radio veterans, we expressed our frustration with working alone in the podcast industry, desiring more human interaction and creative collaboration, the challenges of building a podcast network in today's industry, including the need for dedicated sales and content that resonates with listeners. And naturally, Matty expressed concern about the lack of monetization in podcasting, particularly in comparison to video content, and the potential for low-quality ads to harm the industry. He pulls no punches and that it why we love having him on the show. We also discussed his upcoming business venture called Podle.co which pairs creators and producers. Matt Cundill Voiceovers might just get involved with this. As well the value of the Podcast Academy and our uncertainty around celebrity podcasts, with many failing to gain traction or provide valuable content. TRANSCRIPTION Tara Sands (Voiceover)  00:02 The Sound Off Podcast. The show about podcast and broadcast starts now. Matt Cundill  00:13 Matty Staudt once warned us about starting a podcast network. The pitfalls and perils of trying to get strangers to agree. Today, he's got a different outlook when it comes to the opportunities podcast networks can offer. Matty's been in podcasting since the before times of 2010. Back then he was working with Stitcher, and he's seen a lot of podcast growth from the ground floor. Today he sits as a board member on the Podcast Academy, and will tell you why you should join it. He's also launching Podle.co. Podle.co. Think Fiverr with more accountability, less artwork with microphones in them, and voiceovers recorded on Blue Yetis. Yes. That's what I think of Fiverr. And now, Matty Staudt joins me from Los Angeles, California. Matty, how you been? Matty Staudt  01:02 Matt. How are things in the great white north? Matt Cundill  01:04 You know, we're having a nice winter. It's not as cold as it has been in past years, which leads everybody to be suspicious that a big flood is coming. Matty Staudt  01:12 Come to LA, all we've had is rain and floods and mudslides. But on the whole you can never complain about weather here. So, I don't. Matt Cundill  01:25 You know, I saw a post from you a few weeks ago that, you know, said that you really look forward to working again with people. And I think in the podcast space, we have really gotten used to working alone. But (a) it's lonely, and (b) I don't think we get to exhaust as much creativity as we possibly could. And you said, I want to go work with people again. Matty Staudt  01:45 Yeah. Matt Cundill  01:46 How'd you get to that spot? Matty Staudt  01:48 I've been an entrepreneur for, you know, quite a few years now. And you know, one thing I teach my students in a course that I'm trying to develop for a university is just the mental part of being an entrepreneur. You have months where things are going really good. When I left my last gig and went out to consult, I had more consulting business than I could handle. And then all the doom and gloom happens, and all the repercussions of the overspending and bad caretaking of the podcast industry by some of the bigger players came down, and all of a sudden all the businesses gone. You know, so that's a lonely place to be anyway. And you're responsible for everything. I never wanted to be a business person. It's just the role I've ended up in, in a lot of ways. So that's lonely enough as it is. But when you're working from home, and you're a people person, and most of us that are in this industry, you know, like I started on air, I've been behind a mic since I was a 16 year old kid, I like people. And when you're on Zoom, and you're having these interactions, you're having interactions with people, but there's always an agenda and a time limit. And there's none of that walking around and like, hey, I had an idea about something. Let's talk about this, you know, that happens in creative environments. It's happened to radio, you know, most radio folks work from home now and just record breaks, they don't interact with anybody. And it's happening to our industry, it's happened to our industry. I don't think it's 100% bad thing. Like, you know, remote recording is great. I love it. I do some pilot work, and I've had some folks who want to do live with cameras. And it's a lot of work to do that. But it's also a lot more fun, you know, but just economically, we need to be able to be lean and mean and do things remotely. But boy, do I miss working in a company where there's resources and people and you can go down the hall and talk to the salespeople and give them ideas. I think that's a- it's important. Matt Cundill  03:37 In 2021, you were on stage in Nashville at Podcast Movement- speaking of trying to get together, that was a time when we couldn't all necessarily be together. I couldn't get across the border to go to that. But I did watch you online, and you gave a great little piece on why you should never ever start a network. And those things that you said in that session ring through my mind every day. Because I've got a network. And I went to you and I said, Matty, I don't have a network, even though there's a bunch of podcasts that I work with. And then you looked at me and said, are you running cross promos through the network? And I said yes, and you go, you have a network. And so here I am with this big network. Let's fast forward a few years, though. Do you still feel the same way, and how do you look at networks in podcasting now? Matty Staudt  04:24 Let me backtrack. My goal for my talk was not not to build a network, but to understand the economics of it and all of the pitfalls. And there are quite a few. If you're not having dedicated sales, if you don't have content that's in the same genre, if you're funding the content, you know, those are all things that are really hard to do. Today, there is a lot of content out there that are either homeless or at homes that aren't treating them well. I love iHeart and Spotify, they are big giant networks, but they have shows that if they're not hitting certain numbers, they're not getting paid attention to, you know, so I think building a network today, if you have a little funding and you can build some new shows and do some owned and operated, there's money there still, but you have to understand it's not the old days. You know, we don't build podcast networks anymore. We build cross platform networks, you know, we've invested a lot of time into YouTube and understanding it and- and I've seen better results on YouTube as far as actual people watching and listening than I have with audio in a lot of respects, because you got to understand people consume content different ways. And if you have a piece of content, and you're building a community, and a community needs to be given what they like where they like it, the problem is that we have sales and agencies who don't get that, and they're just- what's the easiest thing to do? Oh, let's just sell programmatic and stick it all in there. Let's not convert radio ads into podcast ads. Let's take low CPMs and just fill up our soft breaks, which is what happened to radio, and why radio is failing, you know? Giant stop loads, bad commercials, low hanging fruit that's not being monetized like video, and you know, when in radio's case, podcasts, I just see a lot of that same stuff happening in our industry, and it really worries me. Matt Cundill  06:18 So I got towards the end of 2023, and I thought to myself, if you have an niche podcast, 1000 downloads a month, whatever, you're in better shape than the podcast that is trying to get 50 to 100 to 200,000 downloads a month. If you're living over in that spot, it is pure calamity. And I see this, because I work with a few of these- these podcasts, where we need more downloads. We want to charge a higher CPM, we need more people listening, on and on and on. That world is chaos. Meanwhile, a niche podcast, they go completely unaffected by all the things that we read every day in the news, podcasting wise. Does that sound right? Matty Staudt  06:59 Well, absolutely. You know, and again, it comes down to sales. If you have somebody who understands what community you're selling, and says, hey, I've got 2000 people that are into- I hate using this reference, because I'm a tennis player, and I hate pickleball players. But let's say you're focused on pickleball. Great, go to every local pickleball court, go to every pickleball thing, they'll want 5000 pickleball players to pay attention to their ads, that's an easier sell. But you have to go out and do it. Like you know that it's not the same as sitting and like taking, you know, okay, well agency sent in a request for X downloads in this genre. They're not even looking at the shows and what they're putting on it. You know, we have all these great tools like Sounder has for contextual targeting, that people aren't using properly, I don't think, as far as like, really targeting the ads. I mean, I listened to a podcast recently that was about people who went on vacation, and they got killed. Every ad that played, it was the same ad. It was for Hilton Honors. And I'm like, is anybody paying attention to what's running on these shows? And they're not. So I would agree with you. The other problem with that- that model is that there are so many, and I'm just gonna say it, bullshit products out there, that yeah, you can get 1000s of downloads for a few dollars, you know, less than that. But they're not real. And the RSS feed companies don't give a shit, because guess what? They're selling against programmatic, behooves them to take these shitty downloads. And it's not all the companies, and I'm gonna just say one to get it out of the way. It's not MoPod, like I- you know, but they're expensive compared to some of these other companies. But you get a Dashboard. And like, I- when I test all of this stuff, you know, this is one of the good things about my position in the industry, is when something new comes out, people send it to me, and, you know, for good or bad, I give them my feedback, usually for free. But I'll see, you know, if I get 10-15 thousand downloads in a day, that's not real. If there's nobody who's listening before or after, that's not real. Those are bots, you can't tell me they're not. And if you're okay with that, that's fine. But you're not building any community that way. And it's obvious when you see a podcast that says, oh, we have 100,000 downloads, and you look at their social. And you look at the people who are interacting with the show, and there's nobody. Do you really have 100,000 people who listen to your show? Doesn't seem logical to me. Matt Cundill  07:05 Yeah, so I've seen a few of that as well. A lot of browser traffic, for instance. Matty Staudt  08:23 It's all browser traffic. Yeah. Matt Cundill  08:24 Yeah. In- in one particular area. Oh, I'm going to drop 50 bucks, say, on this app, and oh, look, all of a sudden now I've got all sorts of traffic, from a browser, from the same place, all in the same day. I thought we saw this problem with, you know, IAB standards and getting together to, you know, to filter out this stuff. Matty Staudt  09:44 Anytime you make a standard, there's- there is some shyster who will find a way around it. And our industry is full of fucking shysters. It is full of folks who are here to do one thing: suck as much money out of this industry as they can and not give a crap about what- what they leave in the wake. And this is why we are where we are with our industry. It's not the content creators' fault. It's not the people who don't like podcasts. It's not that more people weren't listening. It's this end of the industry. And if you look- like when I talk to people who want me to consult for them, all they want to talk to me about is monetization and promotion. And that's great. Because everybody thinks their content is good. And it's like, let me tell you, I'm looking at your completion rates. And that's the first thing I look at. Your completion rates are under 50%. Why are you wasting money promoting a podcast that obviously not- people aren't listening to? Because, you know, they want the numbers and they want the- you know, people like to look at numbers, they like to see charts, and they'll pay people to do that for them in nefarious ways. And let me say this, not always knowing it's nefarious. Because the salespeople will tell you anything you want to hear, you know, they will. They will say hey, these are IAB compliant. These are real listeners, they're coming from here and here, you're gonna have, you know, subscribers, you know, all of these things. But the proof's in the pudding, just run some tests. I mean, it's- it's one of the reasons, you know, we- my partner and I are working on Podle, is to have a place for folks to leave reviews and actually talk about things that they're using in an honest way, and not have a third party telling them, oh, these products are great. Well, yeah, you're telling me these products are great, because people are paying you to tell me these products are great. I can't trust that. Matt Cundill  11:26 So tell me about Podle, because I'm just learning about this now. And I'm interested because I think I can be a participant to this. Matty Staudt  11:35 So Dante Bernie was a student of mine at the Academy of Art University. He was a really good coder, but he was really into- you know, I teach podcasting. And he really wanted to- he was in that. And I was like, you know, I've mentored him over the years. And he has done really big things in LinkedIn and Greenfly, and he runs a lot of the stuff for TMZ now, and I posted, it'd be nice if we had a Yelp for podcast service providers. So we started talking about that. And that would have been pretty simple to put together. And there's some people who have tried that over the years. And there's, you know, you can find some stuff like that. I wanted to build something that's actually really going to be helpful for the industry. So the- the things that I see in the industry is, right now, there are more freelancers than ever. There are more people who don't know how to navigate that world. And there are a lot of products out there that are fugazy, they're just not real, they're not good. So Podle is a combo Fiverr and Yelp for the podcast industry. When we are done, and- and here's the thing, when we started building this, we started looking for some funding, there's not much funding out there to come to the podcast industry. And then, you know, the other thing we decided is, we really want to keep this third party, we really want to make this something that nobody can influence. So we built it ourselves. You know, we've put all the dev work in, I've learned so much about developing marketplace websites than I would ever want to know, and it's taken a lot of time. So right now we're importing, you know, about 600 companies that will be in there. So once it's up, if you have a company, you can claim your business for free, and you can respond to reviews and things like that. If you're a content creator, you can log in, and separate profiles so that people can see that you're a real podcaster. And if you're a freelancer, you can go build your freelance industry, the same kind of structure as a Fiverr with, you know, three tier, and only pay a 5% commission, which is 15% lower than Fiverr, we plan to not take any money other than, you know, sponsored posts. But to start, we're not taking any money from anybody, we want to get this out there to folks, because I think it's needed. I think people need to have a trusted place- and not just podcasts, also YouTube, that you can go and- and- and see what people are saying about these products, and not have to go to a million, you know, chat rooms where, you know, it's some dude who's been podcasting for five days, posts all the time about products, and they don't even know what they're talking about, like, you know, someplace where you can feel like it's legitimate. Matt Cundill  13:53 Tell me about AI, because I follow you, and one of the nice things about following you is that you tell me about all the new toys that are out there. So what are some of the things that you see in AI that are- can really help a podcaster make their life better? Matty Staudt  14:10 So many things. AI is really good for writing and getting started on projects. You know, for me, I use it for- we do a lot of pilots and pitch decks and shows. It's cut my time down by four hours on some of this stuff. You know, I use- for show descriptions, I've been using Sounder's new tool, which is still in development, it's in beta, but it uses their contextual targeting, it's not ChatGPT based, so I really like it because when I get a show description from them, it's in the right tone. And like, they have the right people tagged and the social posts are tagged correctly. So I like that. Oscar that was at A-Cast started a new company, which I think everybody who's in ad sales should be using, WonderCraft, because it can convert anything written into audio with music, and it's really good. It's really neat, you can even put your own voice in. So instead of running these crappy radio ads, you know, convert them to a podcast ad, they're more effective. The listeners like them better, the hosts like them better. But again, it takes these companies to embrace this new technology. And a lot of them aren't. A lot of people in our industry who are on the creative side are pushing back where, you know, I tell writers and hosts like, listen, don't push back on it, learn to use it. Have it helped you get better, don't, you know, just poopoo it because you think it's taking jobs, it's maybe taking jobs that shouldn't have existed, you know, given the economics of our world anyway, you know, like, the days of doing a 15-episode storytelling podcast, that takes two years to build and cost hundreds of thousands of dollars are over. Unfortunately, I was are the ones I liked to listen to. You gotta make them leaner and meaner, and they've got to be on more, they've got to be weekly, bi weekly, at least. It's so funny, these companies don't mind pumping millions of dollars into bringing in celebrities. But when it comes to updating their technology and their ad, the way they do their ads and their promos, and making sure they're targeted correctly. I just- it just baffles me. Matt Cundill  16:12 I totally get it. On one front, when it comes to ads, a company will go and get a voiceover talent to go in the studio to create the ad. Read it for radio, we're going to use it as well for TV, we're going to use it as well online. But then when it comes to podcast, that's a different read. And so I've actually convinced a few companies- I'll record the podcast ad. I'll be the voice of that. I will provide you with the announcer-read way to do it, where it's a headphone experience speaking to the listener, not at the listener. And a few people have come around on it, and do understand it and have bought into it. Which is what I'm going to be putting on- on- on Podle. Matty Staudt  16:56 Okay. Matt Cundill  16:57 Right? That's- Right? That- so it just makes sense. That that- that that- so thank you for introducing me to that, and your new- and your newfound invention. That's great. Matty Staudt  17:05 It is, you know, one of the products that's out there- I mean, and you know, YouTube creation and YouTube upkeep is- is a lot of work. Shorts are a daily. So any tools you can use to shorten that load. I think the companies that are doing combo AI and people to create, like, TikToks, and things like that. Those are the companies that are- like that's the way to go. Yeah, it's not something you should rely solely on. But it needs somebody who understands how to use it. And it's also bureaucracy and bringing in new tools, you have to go through a million hoops to get anything done. And to get back to the network thing, I think this is the time to start a network. If you can pull the content and you can keep it lean and mean, there's money there, there's sales money there, and- but, you know, you need to have a good sales department, you need to find somebody who understands community and selling cross platform, and you need to be making content for all- everything. And again, that's- that is an undertaking. I miss the old days, man. Used to show up at the radio station, 4:30 in the morning, prep, go on the air, talk for four hours. 11am I was out. Same thing with podcast. Used to record it, throw it up there, done. Those days are way over. Matt Cundill  18:18 Yeah, in radio they call that four and out the door? Matty Staudt  18:21 Yeah, well, mornings we didn't get- get to do- quite do four and out the door. But it was certainly a lot easier than today, you know, where, you know, there's so much content to be created. Matt Cundill  18:32 I know there's a lot of people listening to this going, who's this guy Matty, and why is he throwing all these flags about the industry? By the way, all this sounds completely normal to me, because we've both seen this movie before in broadcast and in radio. If you follow the radio trades, you will see there are companies who are- have to be rescued from the depths of bankruptcy, because of all this stuff. And so in podcasting, we're really beginning to feel that sort of stuff now, in an era, when- you just touched on it, you do need some TikTok or you need some YouTube or you need some Reels. And video production is three, maybe four times more expensive than audio creation. So welcome to it. It was already on the margins before, and now it's just- it can be expensive to do this. Matty Staudt  19:16 Yeah, and it doesn't have to be using, you know, modern tools. I mean, I'm always impressed with Riverside. And you know what they- you know, they keep updating and you know, when a company like Spotify says, hey, we're moving things over to a company we don't own. I'm sure they bought a big interest in it, but that's a big deal. Matt Cundill  19:32 Or some affiliate marketing. Matty Staudt  19:34 Yeah. And that was one of the things I gotta say, I was always proud about, you know, my time at iHeart, is we were very innovative at that time. You know, when it was just Chris Peterson and I, no other radio companies had any dedicated people to podcasting other than us. And they've done a good job in investing in technology and companies to help with that, you know, and I think that's the- that's how you have to go, you have to invest in technology. You know me, I've been in this industry almost 17 years now. You know, since we started Stitcher. This is my industry. I love it. I feel like, you know, I helped build it. That's why I get so angry when I see bad players. When I see people who are not looking at the long term industry. Our industry is still baby, maybe- maybe a toddler at this point, it's got a lot of- it's still got a lot of way to go. There's still lots of listeners, they still want good content. But we have to keep that in mind, and stop looking at like, what's the quickest way to make a few bucks off- off of these poor folks who are trying to start out in podcasting. Matt Cundill  20:37 Well it starts with a show, and any show whether it's a radio show, or a radio station, or a podcast, it's three years to build an audience. And so a lot of people aren't really ready for that. They want to- they want to cash out by then. And you're just getting traction after three years. Matty Staudt  20:51 And there's no cashing out, like, you know, for a while there, you can sell shows. And you know, I have three or four shows that would have sold two years ago that are sitting on the shelf, you know, that we did pilots for, that we can't get an investment on. It takes time, it takes skill. One of my biggest beefs is, I work with celebrities and folks from other industries. And they all just think they know more than us because, "I make TV. I know this." Like, yeah, but you don't understand my industry. And I understand my industry. And I know what listeners- I know who listens to stuff. And you know, that's why we're so big on building out personas. And it's why- you know, you and I both know Christian at Potter, it's why I like a company like Potter, which has really done a really good job of creating dashboards of personas, of who's listening, and where they're at, and all of that. That's how I start any podcast process. I don't start with the content. I start with who's- who's listening. It's the old radio thing, and it does Bob want to hear this? Yes, Bob likes this content that will do this. This is not up Bob's aelly, let's not do that. Matt Cundill  21:47 What does Bob do for a living? How old is Bob? What teams does he cheer for? Matty Staudt  21:51 What other shows does he listen to? What- why can't he- how much time does he have to listen to podcasts? Matt Cundill  21:56 What kind of car does he drive? Matty Staudt  21:57 These are all things that modern podcast creators don't always think of, because we still have this stigma, that the whole phrase, anybody can podcast. Yeah, anybody can, but they shouldn't. It's okay to be a listener. You don't have to be a podcaster. You know, I hate to say this, sometimes I get insulted. I'm like, you know, I've done this my whole life. And you think you can just start something and within six months be at a level that somebody that's been doing this forever is- can- is at? And don't get me wrong, some people, natural talent, get in, understand it, can do it. But the majority of folks are- are just spinning their wheels with content that never had a chance and- and throwing money at it. And, you know, for me, it's like, if you want to make a podcast and do it for fun, great, do it. Man, we- do all the ones you want. But you know, when you start coming in expecting to make money, and be at a level where you're making money off of ads, like- it's a tough row to hoe. I mean, you know, if you're not at 20,000 downloads an episode and you think you're gonna make money off of ad sales, you're sorely mistaken. Matt Cundill  23:02 Which brings me to the Duchess of Sussex, who had a podcast, I think it was on Spotify, really didn't go anywhere. But Limonada has- Matty Staudt  23:10 And evidently didn't do her own interviews, according to Bill Simmons. Matt Cundill  23:13 That's right. Didn't do well. But you know, there are celebrities out there. I look at a Chris Jericho and a Steve Austin, who have, you know, successful podcasts. There's some people who are just great storytellers. And there are other celebrities who just can't get their podcast off the ground. So I guess I'm asking, is the celebrity podcast- are we done with that yet? Matty Staudt  23:34 Um, no. I mean, I think you know- we do pilots, and so what we do is we work with these folks to like create a show that's actually going to have legs, and it's something that they'll want to do and keep doing and actually is up their alley. You know, the podcasts, if you look at, that have been successful with celebrities. Let's look at Office Ladies. Or this- the Always Sunny podcast, they're talking about stuff they really know, and that people really want to know about. I don't need another celebrity mom who has 15 nannies telling other mothers how to be moms, like, Jiminy Christmas.  You know, I live in these neighborhoods, I live in LA. I don't see any of these people take care of their own kids. You know, they're- they got 15 nannies walking the kids. And I'm just using that as an example. But I think those kinds of podcast- like do we need another celebrity telling us how to be mentally healthy? I don't, I- you know, honestly, most of the celebrities I know are the most batshit crazy people I met. But I don't think it's over. But as long as companies are still making these big announcements and spending the money, I look at some companies and their original mission statements and their funding and- and then they're putting out celebrity podcasts, and it's like, is that really what you said you were gonna do? And- but we don't know the details on some, and- and then some companies really liked the press release, you know, that is really all they care about is having a press release with a big name, to bring attention to their company, to bring in more funding. Matt Cundill  23:40 The stock goes up. Matty Staudt  25:01 It's not just a "let's make money from the podcast" game anymore, it's how can we use and leverage the celebrity to up our other shows or up our other things? I think celebrities are great to anchor networks that have podcasters that aren't celebrities, you know, if you can get a good one. And I know I'm critical a lot of the celebrity podcasts. I mean, I make them. I do believe in them, because you know, having somebody- it's the same thing I tell anybody that's new to the business, what kind of following do you have? Okay, you don't have a following. So you do know you have a long row to hoe. Or somebody that's got a huge following, if they can pull that following and make content that that following, again, the community likes, their community, then that's going to be a successful podcast. But just pulling in a couple of celebs to tell stories about their friends- I think those days are pretty much over, you know, the just rambling, self important, let me drop names and bring in my- I've seen so many pitches where it's, blah, blah, blah, will bring in his celebrity friends and they'll talk about their lives, like, pbbblt. Nope. Matt Cundill  26:01 You know, some people don't want to consume the celebrity on the audio level. They- I'm fine just watching you on Instagram. I'm fine watching you on TV. I'm fine consuming you in this- in this other space. Gordon Ramsay, for instance, doesn't need a podcast, I can get him on TV, on Fox, a couple hours a week, anywhere. Matty Staudt  26:20 I mean, it's about- you know, let's just say if I was Gordon Ramsay, and I was going to do a podcast, of course, I would do video. And the audio, I would- you know, it's got to be like something that I can only get from Gordon Ramsay, which is, dude knows a lot about cooking. And being a chef, and running a business, and running multiple businesses, and building an industry out of- out of one business. That's what I would want to hear Gordon Ramsay talk about, like, that's interesting to me, because that is- I like self made people. I don't have a lot of time for people born on third and think they hit a triple. I came from very, very, very meager beginnings in West Virginia. People sometimes look at celebrities and don't realize, like, hey, this person worked their ass off to get where they're at. And that's the story I want to hear. Not about how awesome their life is now. Tara Sands (Voiceover)  27:06 Transcription of the Sound Off Podcast is powered by the You May Also Like Podcast, the show about people, places and things. Follow the show on your favorite podcast app, or at YouMayAlsoLike.net. Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  27:21 This podcast supports podcasting 2.0, so feel free to send us a boost if you're listening on a new podcast app. Find your new app now at podcasting2.org/apps. That's podcasting2.org/apps. Matt Cundill  27:36 I think I can claim that I've been in podcasting since 2007. But hear me out on how I'm gonna get there. And that's that I had the foresight to take a morning radio show- I was the program director- and put that up on Apple and into the iTunes Store and promote it on the air. And we got some pretty good numbers for that after-show. So that was my first podcast experience back in 2007. So I feel like I can say that I've been podcasting since 2007, or had a relationship with it. But I totally love the after-show for radio, or what they would call in Britain, catch up radio. And I think you pointed out, using some data from Bumper, that there is still value for radio and the after-show. Matty Staudt  28:21 I started the first one in the United States, as far as I know, in 2007. I'd left my morning show, because of the restrictions that were coming in. I did FM talk and it was like, yes, you can't talk about this anymore. You're gonna do this, and- and my host came back and said, I don't know- I'm going crazy. I'm like, start a podcast. I have this new company, Stitcher. We'll put it on there. That podcast ended up doing millions and millions and millions and millions of downloads. And there's about 15 people at CBS who have taken credit for it since then. But I know the host and I started it, and the whole thing- when you have a community and you have what we call on radio a P1, you should service that P1 any way you can, and an after-show podcast is 100% servicing that P1. And if your salespeople can't wrap their mind around- these are more valuable than your radio listeners. Because let's be honest with you, the radio ratings, PeopleMeter, Nielsen, is bullshit. Bullshit. 1500 people on a market of 7 million are going to tell me who's listening to what and how long? I don't buy it, because who takes the PeopleMeter? I don't know. I don't know anybody who would take a PeopleMeter and carry the thing around, like, it's usually folks who are on economic hard times, the same folks who want to win stuff on the radio. So they get super served, and while you're super serving them, the actual people who- who will spend money, and want to spend time with good content, are left in the dust, and that's- that's radio in the United States in a nutshell. Mornings are the one place where you can still have personality and do that, but you've got to be there for people 24/7 like all their other content. So that means an after-show, that means doing YouTube, that means doing TikTok. But again, if there's nobody there selling it and packaging it, and you're a radio host, why would you do that stuff? You're not getting paid any extra, you know, they'll throw it in your contract maybe. But just because it's in your contract doesn't mean you're gonna put a lot of effort into it. Matt Cundill  30:09 Did we solve the problem about pitching ideas and not having them stolen? And this is an old radio thing, because I used to have to write reports to prospective employers. Give me a report on the radio station, and how you would fix it. Then I would send the report off, I wouldn't get the job, but all my ideas would wind up on the air two weeks later. Do we have that issue in podcasting? Matty Staudt  30:32 Of course, I mean, I've- I literally had a company reach out to me about a branded show. And I put together, here's what- here's what I would do for this show. And they didn't hire me. And then, three months later, they launch a show. Exactly the format, exactly, everything that I pitched them. I did send them a note and say, hey, I'm glad that you used all my ideas on your podcast. But that's about all I can do. Now, we will do NDAs now. So that- Okay. You know, when we talk, it's under a disclosure agreement, you're- you know, you can't use the ideas. I don't do that all the time. In fact, I rarely do it. You know, I'll do it with like a big company. But I think that's- that has just been the case in creative forever. Everybody claims to have started something, you know, Opie and Anthony, when I worked for them, we did Whip it Out Wednesdays, which- horrible, but anyway, that's what we did. Every radio show in the country started doing their version. Flash 'Em Fridays, or Take 'Em Out Tuesdays or something like that. Matt Cundill  31:31 Okay, I ripped that off, too. Matty Staudt  31:33 Okay, exactly. You can't get mad at that because, again, you know, imitation is the highest form of flattery. But yeah, it is galling, to do it. And what- what's happened in radio in the United States is one- one radio show comes up with one good radio bit, and then everybody does it. And you know, they all use the same actors. So that the same actors, which by the way, if you listen to radio, and somebody is calling somebody, and they had this fantastic story, and they've cheated or something like that, that's all fake. Those are actors, all of it. It's all- it's all theater of the mind. You can't call people on the radio, and put them on the air without them knowing. Anyway, my class hates it when I point that out to them. But then you end up having cookie cutter morning shows, because oh, this worked here, let's do- make every show do it. Even though at night- might not fit the tone of the show, or the people on the show, or the- the audience in that city. Because as you know, cities vary greatly. You know, there's- I look at Mojo in Detroit, a really good friend of mine and somebody I respect immensely in industry. That dude is Detroit. Knows Detroit, when people leave, they still listen to Mojo, they go online and find Mojo because he talks to the city. San Francisco went through a phase where like, you know, I went back to radio for a little bit to Live 105. And they wanted to bring in a show from LA, and it failed miserably. Because people in LA and people up north are different. Different folks. People up north hate LA. San Francisco, Oakland, hate LA. Hate everything about it, hate the people... for no good reason. People in LA love the Bay Area. So they don't understand like, what do you mean, you guys don't like this? It's like, you just don't understand. It's ingrained in us not to like you. Matt Cundill  33:12 We know this story, when people in LA are putting caps on 49ers fans buying tickets at Sofi. Matty Staudt  33:19 Just like I'm from Oakland. Matt Cundill  33:21 Yeah, you know it's on, right? Matty Staudt  33:22 I will never root for the San Francisco Giants. But it's funny, people in San Francisco are like, well, we like Oakland, we like the- the- the A's. Like well, you- That's nice. But that's not how we operate. Matt Cundill  33:34 You said the word "community" a few times so far. And when people come and talk and pitch about their podcast idea, it's going to be big, it's going to have a lot of this, we're gonna get a lot of advertising. It's funny, the word community doesn't come up in those conversations. They're thinking more about downloads and ads. So walk me back to get people thinking about community building and podcasting. Matty Staudt  34:01 Look at any successful long term podcast that's out there. And I hate ever using Joe Rogan as an example, because he is an outlier. Joe's built a fuck- a community, there's a community, and people, like, are obsessed with him. And- and it's just like I tell hosts, like, yeah, you can have every celebrity guest on you want, but people won't come back because of that. They come back because they like you. They like the host. They want to be part of this community of a show that you've built. And people forget that. And it's like, again, we have so many products, like get guests, have guests, all the guests. It's like, if that's all you're relying on, then your show is not good to begin with. You know, a good show isn't "Hi, I'm Bob. And today we're talking to so and so." Bob, I want to know, do I like Bob? You know, I need to like Bob in order to understand, you know, and know that he has a unique perspective on what he does with his guests. You know, when I did radio, when we had comedians and things on and we were really innovative, and in that sense was, they would come on, and the minute they would start to say, like, can you guys set me up for- Nope, we do not set you up for jokes. You come in and play, and if you play well, you'll be here for hours. If you don't play well, you'll be here one segment. Rogan was a great example. Joe would come in and expect to have to do a Fear Factor interview. And we're like, no, talk about whatever. Then he got into isolation chambers and all this other stuff. And- and then we would have Joe on all the time, because we knew Joe was good content, he'd just come in and, like, here's the news story we're talking about. Joe, what do you think? Blah blah blah. I haven't done my morning show in San Francisco in 17 years, 16 years, something like that. I still have fans who follow everything I do. That's how much of a community we built. And I think that's what's- you know, people forget about podcasting is like, are you interacting with them? And do they want to make you famous, you know? Do they want to tell people about you? That's the most important thing. It's the only thing. Matt Cundill  35:53 So I did get a chance to go see you at Podcast Movement. You were on a panel, the world famous Podcast Makeover. And here's what happens in this. The artwork goes on the screen, you get the first 30 seconds of the show to listen to. And then you have to make discernments and judgments about the whole thing. And this is something that has changed over the last number of years. Jacobs Media, for a long time, put it on, and Seth Ressler was moderating it. And you were on the panel. But tell me about artwork and tell me about the first 30 seconds of a show, because I still think it's- it's something we don't talk about enough. Matty Staudt  36:28 No, in fact, I just got- I'm doing a consulting for a niche podcast network. And their problem is that their hosts just start talking, and just start talking to the guests. And they do things like, tell us about yourself. So remember, you have a finite time for a listener to lock into your show. And- and yes, it is fun to start off with cute little clips from the show, and things like that. But unless they're very captivating, they're not going to interest anybody who's never listened to your show. And those are the most important listeners. You know, within that first minute, I need to know what the show is, what it's about, who you are, why are you hosting? Why should I pay attention to you? And then set the table for the guest. So that by the time- you know, this is why we do all of our intros after interviews. I tell people all the time, I'm like, don't do an intro before an interview, because you don't even know what you're going to tease, because you don't know everything you're going to talk about with that guest. We do them afterwards, so that we can really set the table for any guest. I don't care how big they are. So that people are like, oh, can't wait to hear what they say about that. As shows get bigger and grow, yeah, you can have- you have more leeway with that stuff. You know, people will come in, but when you're new, you can't afford to lose somebody. And the other thing is the sound quality. When I come on, and I hear (distorted) here's the host talking, and then (distant) and then the guest is over here. And you know, and- like, I'm out. You know, I say this all the time. I've never met one podcast listener who has said, I listened to x podcast, it didn't sound good. I'll try them back in three months and see if they figured it out. Doesn't happen. Matt Cundill  38:02 Yeah, well, you hit on about like five or six things right there, including "tell me about yourself." That is- you've lost control of your show, the minute you ask that. Because the answer could be eight seconds, but it is often eight minutes, eight minutes! Matty Staudt  38:16 Could be eight minutes. You know, I pitch myself all the time. So in 60 to 80 seconds, I can tell you my entire career, like that is-  I'm used to doing it. I do it all the time. Most people aren't- don't do that. And the other thing is, there might be things interesting about them that they don't say, or they won't know to say. Your job is to say the interesting things, so that people want to listen to the podcast. Especially if you're relying on guests that nobody's heard of. Like, oh, I've got Dr. John on, and we're going to talk about heart health. Who's Dr. John, where do they work? Why do I care about Dr. John? What kind of insights does Dr. John have that Dr. Bob doesn't have? You know, those are the types of things. Matt Cundill  38:54 Yeah, and that's something that you learned in radio. And that's something I also wound up learning, because I was doing a lot of artists interviews. They were sounding a little bit the same. But then at the same time, some of these bands just weren't interesting beyond the turntable hit we were playing, and I don't mean to finger a band, in particular, in the 90s. But Tonic was coming into the station. Matty Staudt  39:15 I have had experiences with Tonic. So tell me, I bet they're the same. Matt Cundill  39:20 So the band Tonic, you know, You Wanted More, hits like that. But how was that gonna make this interesting to talk? I don't think we can talk about the music very much. I mean, we could, it's just not that interesting. So Rolling Stone magazine had a little section on their website that said, interesting facts about Tonic, and somebody had posted up there that the lead singer could do armpit farts. 37 different varieties of armpit farts. We had a good radio show that day. It was pretty funny as he demonstrated them all on the air. Matty Staudt  39:46 Yeah, I mean, and that's another thing that AI is good for, is prep. You can find a lot of stuff out about people, and you've got to double check it and all those other things. I love it. I've heard this before, in interviews, where somebody will ask somebody a question like, oh, you've been on IMDb. Yeah, that's not right. I've been in interviews where it's been said to me, and I've been- so I- you know, again, learned my lesson, you know, that I don't ask those obvious things. And what I tell people is, when you're prepping for a guest, if they've done past interviews, go listen to them, go read them. If they have a cool story that they told in that interview, asked them to tell him on your show. Very few people will have listened to the other thing. And then you know you've got some good content. And my other thing is, when I start an interview with somebody, I call it the Tom Cruise rule, which is first time we had Tom Cruise on our show they were like just talking about Mission Impossible, don't do this, don't do that, dadadadada. So my partner No Name is a big motorcycle guy. Tom's a big motorcycle guy. Tom had just bought a new motorcycle, and- and the first question was, Tom, I heard you bought the bla bla bla bla bla bla bla, and you could hear him fucking breathe in and smile, and go, yeah, oh, let me tell you about this bike. And at the end of the interview, I don't know if you ever did this, we'd always leave them on to hear what they said about us. And Tom was like, I like them a lot. I'll go back on anytime. And we had Tom on probably six times, probably more than most radio shows ever got him. And it was- and I always say, it was that first question. That first question, because (a) we show that we care about Tom as a person. And we have something in common with Tom. And he's not some elevated, you know, like, oh, we got to, you know, follow the rules. And you know, and- and guess what? The- the people who scheduled the interview also know, yeah, we got to the movie stuff. We'll always get to the stuff you want to promote. And I will tell that to guests too, like, listen, I know, you want to promote X, trust me, we will get there. But I want people to like you first. And once they like you, then we'll promote the stuff so that then they want to go do it. People forget that. They just want to start promoting. And it's like, listen, you can promote all day. But if I don't like you, or I don't have a reason to feel like I've connected to you on an empathetic level, why would I go buy your book? Matt Cundill  42:01 Yeah, and if the listener knows that you're just there to promote, and you don't give them a reason to listen, they're not gonna stick around to the end. And we've got PPM data in radio to show that that happens. Matty Staudt  42:09 Yeah, radio got rid of was time spent listening. And that, to me, is the same thing as why I look at podcasts consumption rates, it's really the most important thing. If you want to spend 30 minutes with me, then I'm doing something right. If you only want to spend five minutes of 30 minutes with me, I'm not doing some- I'm doing something wrong. And I need to fix it. Matt Cundill  42:28 You know, I've got the honorable distinction of being the only member of the Podcast Academy that has prepaid for the next two years. And I did so by- Matty Staudt  42:38 Can we talk about that? Matt Cundill  42:39 Well, I know I- because I accidentally hit, like, submit on my credit card twice. So there I am, I'm now- I'm now in for the next two years. But I know you mentioned it, and you- and you, I believe you sit on the board. Talk about the Podcast Academy and its- and what they're up to. Matty Staudt  42:56 So, you know, we are the folks that want to be there for professional podcasters. And if you follow, you know, our posts on LinkedIn, you know, we're always doing seminars, trainings. The biggest thing about joining the podcast Academy is the networking. You know, I do the mentorship program. And I would say- I've been doing mentorship for- since we started that in 2020. Almost every time I do a mentorship session, one of the people in the group is somebody I ended up doing business with down the road. So it's a great way to make connections with that. I'm not pointing fingers, but like, it just seems like the folks we want to get to join, you know, the people who are actually- you know, this is what we do for a living, aren't. And, you know, that puts us in a place where we're, you know, constantly trying to raise money, you know, for- you know, to run all these other things that we want to do. There's so much stuff I want to do for the academy, that right now we just can't do, because we- you know, we need more members. So there's certainly a membership push. And again, if- if you thought about joining the podcast academy or want to join, just reach out to me, that's the other thing. You know, our board is very accessible. And our board is a lot of heavy hitters. I don't know how I'm on it. But you know, it's- it's- it's a lot of folks who have a lot of weight. And you have access to these folks when you're in the Podcast Academy. And I think that's- it's really important. It's not just a United States thing. It is a global thing. Obviously, you're in Canada, and you're a member. But I think that's what we're really pushing now is just more of an awareness thing, that we're not just the Ambies, you know, the Ambies are fun and nice. And you know, cool. That's not all we do. I work on a lot of committees for education and other things. And you know, my goal was to help bring more knowledge to the people who are working in the industry to make them better. Matt Cundill  44:38 Yeah, and thanks for mentioning, you know, about the mentorship that goes on. Because you can be a mentor or you can be a mentee, and it's possible to be both. One of the other things I really like is there's a Slack channel. I have a question that needs answered. I'm in contact with people in the industry, and they're in the bottom right corner of my computer and at Slack. You guys were there when, you know, Canada had some legislation that was a little bit worrisome. We don't know if that's going to impact podcasters. And I approached you at the Academy, and I said, I think we need to pay attention to this. And we have, and you know, this stuff does sort of blow itself into a particular direction. And for those of you who are wondering, it's Bill C10. And- or Bill C11, Bill C18. And, you know, the end result is that news is not being shown on Facebook in Canada, Facebook is just out of the news business, that's the way the legislation goes, we can talk all day about the legislation being wrong. But when I did approach the academy, they had an interesting approach. They said, let's educate, you know, let's educate everybody about this before, you know, it gets into advocacy. And, you know, Podcast Academy is something like- you know, advocacy is something that they can stay out of. And I said, well, what point would they jump in? Let's say, Apple and Spotify turn off Canada, and there's no podcasts. Do you go in then? I don't know, maybe. Maybe that's what the Podcast Academy has to do. I mean, again, everybody wouldn't like 80% of their downloads in Canada to disappear. So. Matty Staudt  46:01 And as far as advocacy, like, that is something I'd like to see us do more of, especially like, you know, the things we've talked about, like, you know, what are these IAB standards? And how are we letting people circumvent them? And, again, it doesn't help our industry to do that, you know, inflating downloads does not help our industry. But we can't do those kinds of things, if we don't have enough members to support us to do them. That is kind of the position we're in right now. It's not that expensive, I think it's $100 a year, but with codes and things, you know, you can get that down to, you know, stuff. You know, one of the things I really pushed is, we give free memberships for underserved communities. And one of the underserved communities in the United States that is always overlooked is my community of Appalachia. We are a minority of people in the states that are still made fun of, and it's okay to make fun of. I can't tell you how many times I mention I'm from West Virginia, and the first thing out of somebody's mouth is hillbilly, incest, or teeth. Matt Cundill  46:54 I had dental plan, by the way, on that. I was- he's gonna mention teeth, right. And so I knew that, right? So the stereotypes are there. Matty Staudt  47:00 I'm not at the point where I laugh at that stuff anymore. I will point out to folks that those are really horrible stereotypes. And if- and if- you know- you know, I go back home and it breaks my heart. And I try as much as I can to get back to Appalachia. You know, I'm very proud to be from Appalachia. But I bring all that up is that, at the Academy, we say we're serving underserved communities. It's everybody. It's not just LGBTQ and bipoc creators, but also underserved, you know, economically underserved communities. You know, that's why- you know, I do a lot of work with inner city folks. And folks that have been in prison. And when I talk to people, they're like, what do you have in common with those folks? You grew up in a trailer park, and I'm like, I have everything in common with them. Because we grew up in areas where we had no way to get out. You know, you have three or four options, join the military. We used to have places you could work, you don't have that anymore in Appalachia, the mines are closed, there's no factories, you know, there's more coming in. There's a lot of- lot of- a lot of stuff coming in. But getting out is daunting, to say the least. I was lucky, my mother refused to let me date in high school. She was like, nope, not knocking anybody up. You're getting out of here. I went to college, came back home the next week, didn't have a bedroom anymore. I was out the door. Matt Cundill  47:00 Yeah. I mean, and the complications of that- I mean, we're talking about poverty. And at one point, you know, you can exhaust some jokes, but once it starts to intercede and go into like multiple generations with the same issue, it's not funny anymore. Matty Staudt  48:30 There is trauma that is genetically brought down. You know, I think people understand that when it comes to African Americans and slavery, and that there is just- there is a trauma that is carried through genetically, and I will say the same thing for Appalachians as well. That we have- we have a chip on our shoulder. We are- we are pessimistic. I've been watching the show, Welcome to Wrexham, which is about a Welsh soccer team. And I watch it and I go, oh, now I understand West Virginia, because we were founded by a lot of Welsh people and Italians, and- and I'm like, they brought their- their crappy attitudes over here too. Because always finishing second, never making it, nobody likes- everybody puts us down, you know, that kind of thing. And I'm like, oh, we have so much in common. Matt Cundill  49:13 I would think one of the problems in Appalachia would be internet access. Matty Staudt  49:18 That is it. And also education. You know, in my state, if you have a hearbeat, they'll pretty much let you be a teacher at this point. And few people want to do it, because they don't pay. So it starts there, you know, with education, you know, I'm lucky that my mom and dad were very well educated. And also, my mom tended to answer questions with, here's a book, go read it. Wanna know? Go to the library, here it is. And when I was in school, the education system was much better, you know, but now, you know, I have friends that are teachers, you know, and I try to give back and do some stuff with my high school in my hometown, and if I had money, if you gave me $2 million, I would immediately start putting podcast studios in high schools in West Virginia, because the one thing about Appalachians are, we're the best storytellers. You know, my wife went home with me the first time, met our neighbor Gene. And Gene told her story about going downtown and getting eggs. And it took 20 minutes for him to tell the story. And it was riveting. And she's like, I get it, I understand you, you people tell stories. I'm like you- that's his first- wait till two weeks from now, that story will be even better. You know, so we have this rich history of storytelling. And it is also a way that I have found over the years, storytelling and talking, and- you know, that's a way to really exorcise a lot of those demons, and to feel- to get a sense of self esteem and pride in being from Appalachia, like I take pride in being from Appalachia. And I didn't for a long time. Man when I went out the door, I was out the door. It was in my mirror like, whew, got out of there. But as I got older, I'm like, no, no, no, I'm very lucky I grew up where I grew up, in the sense of family and pride and community that was built into me from my hometown is part of my DNA. Matt Cundill  50:58 Are you still consulting independently? Matty Staudt  51:01 Yeah, networks, individuals. Especially, you know, folks are like trying to figure out the new technology and how to use it, then, you know, we do the pilot production for, you know, folks who want to sell a show to a network, they are still buying shows. These days, you can't just have a deck and say, here you go. No, you need to show it, you have to have a pilot, show video, all of that kind of stuff. So we're doing that. And I have started to dip my toe back into the branded space a bit. So we're doing some of that as well. But also looking for a job, because I miss people working at a company. Entrepreneurship is- is in my DNA, it will always be my DNA. Podle will be- you know, that's another reason why we haven't taken any funding. It's like, we want it to be ours. You know, we want to build it the way we want to build it and do it the way we want to do it. So short answer, yes. Matt Cundill  51:51 Good. That's pretty much where we started, too, so. Hey, Matty, thanks a lot for doing this. Really appreciate it, and all those things that we've spoken about, whether it was Podle, or to get in touch with you for consulting, or for anything and everything Matty, it's all in the show notes of the episode. Matty Staudt  52:04 Thanks, Matt. Love being on with you, brother. Matt Cundill  52:07 Thank you. Tara Sands (Voiceover)  52:07 The Sound Off Podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski. Edited by Chloe Emond-Lane. Social media by Aidan Glassey. Another great creation from the Soundoff Media Company. There's always more at SoundOffPodcast.com

Last June, I got to watch Maie Pauts receive the Rosalie Tromblay Trailblazer Award. There was a 10 minute video summary of her career along with the tributes and highlights. This is a longer version of that. In this episode, you'll hear how Maie got her start in radio at the campus station at Ryerson University in Toronto. She originally wanted to work in TV production but fell in love with radio after joining the campus station. She hosted a funk/R&B show at the campus station before getting her first radio job at an AM station in Brampton. She later joined the legendary CFNY station in Toronto where she worked from 1986-2001. In the 90s, CFNY went through an ownership change and started playing more commercial hits, which upset some core listeners. But it also led to increased ratings. After leaving CFNY, Maie did a short stint in talk radio before joining CHUM FM's in 2002. She later moved to Boom 97.3 in 2010, playing hits from the 70s, 80s and 90s. What's the key to Boom's success? Talking about current events while playing older music. This allows the brand and personalities to connect with listeners of all ages. Finally, Maie received the Rosalie Trombley Trailblazer Award from Radio Trailblazers Canada for her contributions to radio over a 40+ year career. If you would like to nominate someone for that award this year, please nominate them now. Here is the video that ran before Maie's acceptance of the award. Transcription is coming.

Steve Goldstein is back after a nearly three year absence from the show to talk about video and podcasting. Last summer - video was the main topic of conversation at Podcast Movement, largely on the heels of a presentation by Steve Goldstein from Amplifi Media and Jay Nachlis from Coleman Insights. The study surveyed podcast listeners on how they "consume" podcasts across platforms like YouTube, Spotify, Apple etc. Key findings were that 72% use multiple apps to listen, and 75% said a podcast can be audio or video. Steve and I also discussed how people are consuming podcasts in different ways - watching full videos, clips, highlights etc. Podcasters need to make content available in multiple formats to reach wider audiences. How? Well that's still something each individual podcaster needs to figure out. The Sound Off Podcast started recording a video version of our episodes shortly after this study was released. We are interested to know what you think. In the spirit of the study and this episode - we released this episode a few days early on YouTube, and spent a little more time than we would producing a video product. The other presenter in this study was Jay Nachlis from Coleman Insights. I host another podcast with a few of my podcast buddies called "The Podcast Superfriends" and we had Jay on the show to talk about the findings. Sign up for Steve's excellent blog. Also you have heard me speak to Steve, and the Superfriends speak to Jay... here they are together with the presentation that was done shortly after Podcast Movement. TRANSCRIPTION Tara Sands (Voiceover)  00:02 The Sound Off Podcast. The show about podcast and broadcast starts now. Matt Cundill  00:13 I called up Steve Goldstein and I asked him if he would come back on the show, and he said: Steve Goldstein  00:16 Yeah, I think it's been three years. You better deal with me. Matt Cundill  00:20 Time is just moving by so quickly. Steve Goldstein  00:23 Because nothing's happened in three years. Matt Cundill  00:25 Where does the time go anyhow? At Podcast Movement last year, he, along with Jay Nachlis from Coleman Insights, gave a keynote speech called The New Rules of Podcasting, which highlighted the impact YouTube and video have had on podcasts, and how they're consumed and discovered. It left many in the audience, including myself, rethinking their video strategy. Since then, you'll notice that I've started recording episodes and putting them up on YouTube. Not just the audiogram, but actual live footage of me talking on this podcast. I'm telling you, it's riveting stuff. Anyhow, this allows for better discovery and also placement in YouTube apps where someone's gonna listen to it. So for me, I've already got my mind made up on how I'm going to use video with my podcast. I'll likely be changing my thinking every few months, but what I'm really hoping for this episode is to give you some direction on what you need to do for your show. By the way, I host another podcast called the Podcast Superfriends, where we dive deep into podcasting. And we had Jay Nachlis from Coleman Insights come on the show to talk about the study from the creator and producer perspective. I've left a link to that in the show notes of this episode. And it goes without saying that if you'd like to watch this podcast instead of listen to it, there is a video experience you can have right now on YouTube. We've even added in some of Steve and Jay's colorful slides. And now, Steve Goldstein joins me from Westport, Connecticut. And we start our conversation about a fully accredited course at NYU called the Business of Podcasting, where naturally, Steve's the professor. Steve Goldstein  00:25 We started from scratch, it's never been done before. There are many courses on how to make a podcast, you know, you put the microphone into the Mac, and you get the software and blah, blah, blah. That is not what this is about. This is about the ecosystem. And it's very NYU, they have business courses on the music side, they have the Stern School of Business and Tisch. And so this fit in kind of nicely with the sort of things that they do. And we developed it out and we debuted it in the fall. We'll do it again this coming fall. And we- we had a lot of great guest speakers, we had a lot of good content, and it was very popular offering. Matt Cundill  01:59 One of the things I found interesting is that it resides in the music and performance side of the university, and not necessarily over in the business side. Steve Goldstein  02:20 Yeah, but it was open to students at Stern. It was open to Tisch, it was open to Steinhardt, it was open to the entire university, but a guy named Larry Miller, who's the head of the music business department is the guy who sort of tagged this thing and- and was the mentor for it all. Matt Cundill  03:08 And that makes sense. There's so much that really goes into- the business of music and the business of podcast is- they're first cousins. Steve Goldstein  03:16 Well, yeah, and maybe one day you'll even be able to put music in podcasts. Matt Cundill  03:19 How far away are we from actually doing that? Steve Goldstein  03:22 I'll be retired, I'll be somewhere else. This is crazy that these guys can't figure this one out. Matt Cundill  03:27 And one of the things that you came up with, I think over the last couple of years, is you've really been paying attention to video. And so tell me a little bit about the genesis of the study. You collaborated with Coleman Insights to do the study about video and podcast. And I feel like it's been a long time in the works, and something you've been thinking about for a while. So Jeff Vidler at Signal Hill Insights was one of the first, he would come out with a study, and it was about the discoveries for YouTube, and he would get a lot of pushback. I was one of the ones who said, you know, Jeff, that's YouTube, and that's not an RSS feed, and maybe you should throw that out. But I guess a good researcher doesn't throw that out, and is just really reflecting what people were telling him. Steve Goldstein  03:49 Yeah, we sort of cooked this one up, it's a year and a half now where we were talking about ideas, what could be done, that would be significant research in the marketplace. There was no question on my end that the big issue was YouTube. And there was a lot of resistance in the podcast space, there still is. Less so than before. There were people who didn't believe the data that was coming out elsewhere. I mean, I saw reports from Pierre Bouvard and Westwood and Signal Hill, and they were showing this rise of YouTube. But nobody had done a full-on study with the impact of YouTube and podcasting sort of merged together. And so that's what Jay Nachlis and I put together along with Scott Musgrave at Coleman Insights. And it was pretty revelatory. I mean, there have been other studies since then, which sort of reinforced everything that we talked about, but we had a packed crowd because there were a lot of people who were wondering, alright, I'm hearing about YouTube. What am I going to do about it? And it was showing up elsewhere. I mean, Edison was seeing this thing. Pierre and I had conversations. I mean, it was- he was tracking YouTube four years ago, when it really wasn't as big a factor. And of course, now it is. But look, it has to be in the consideration set, because the audience is always right. Yeah. Matt Cundill  05:32 Yeah, so this really comes down to what the audience is- how they're behaving, what they're saying, and where they're truly getting it from. So then you go and put together this study, to go and quiz people. So give me a little bit of background about the people you recruited for it, and the questions that you asked them. Steve Goldstein  05:50 Well most of the questions were pretty basic. I mean, we were interested in two phases of this. One, how were people listening to podcasts? So that included apple and Spotify and anything and everything else. And then we did a deep dive into, okay, if you're using YouTube for podcast, how is it going? And we- we even did a face off with Spotify and Apple, just to see what the preferences were. There was a lot of data in there that sort of surprised us, certainly surprised me. I think maybe one of the biggest findings is that 72% of people were already using more than one podcast app. I thought this was sort of a binary thing, way wrong on that issue. People are shifting back and forth, depending on what they are doing. That was reinforced, by the way, by my NYU class. So you're talking about 20 year olds, and they are surfing content, and they expect it to be on multiple platforms. So that was a really good and important reinforcement of the fact that people already made the decision. I do not need one podcast app, I need to find content wherever I happen to be at that moment. Matt Cundill  07:04 I know you'll find it surprising, but people do indeed like to watch two bald people talk to each other about podcasting. But I actually do get my hair done. I know that surprises a lot of people, but the person who was- who was doing my hair, I said, do you like podcasts? He said yes. And I said, well, where do you consume podcasts? On YouTube. And I said, well, what do you like? And Dax Shepard. I said, well, but you know you can just get it here on Spotify. So why are you wasting your time with your eyes on YouTube? And I mean, he's the one with a razor, I think I had to cut the conversation off at that point, but people are going to consume it the way they want. Steve Goldstein  07:40 People are going to consume it the way they want. And that is also nuanced. So people aren't just either watching or listening to a podcast, they're doing both. You know, I have talked in the past about my science project. So I have a 34 year old, a 32 year old and a 25 year old. And they do consume media a little bit differently, but way differently than, you know, maybe me, but I think about what they do. And the 25 year old is living in New York City. So he is using YouTube, he's also using Spotify. But he will pull up the video to see who it is that they're talking to. But he is walking on the streets of New York. And so he's not watching the video in- in that same real time. But he's using it as a tool. Matt Cundill  08:30 One of the things that happens with radio research over the years, because the questions the answers would come back. People would go, well, why is it like that? I said, well, because you asked the question wrong. But you did one thing really right, and you asked the question properly to people, and it wasn't where do you listen to podcasts, but you were very conscious about using the word consume, in order to get people to think and get into that mind space about podcasts. Steve Goldstein  08:55 Yeah, we wrestled with that. I think we came up with a good answer. Maybe there are better answers. I don't know. But we certainly needed to move past the word "listen." Matt Cundill  09:04 I liked that. I mean, if you said listen, you'd probably get a lower YouTube number. Steve Goldstein  09:09 Probably. I don't know, we didn't make that mistake. So thank you. Matt Cundill  09:15 I mean, podcasts are really about consumption. So I'll take it one step further, and just think, maybe our measuring in the future isn't going to be about listens, it's going to be about consumption. And consumption is going to be the number that, you know, we'll measure against and it won't be downloads. Steve Goldstein  09:29 So let's- so let's pause there for a sec, because I think this is really important. And if you get out of the podcast space, and you go to TV, you see that that's already happened in a big and significant way. If you're linear TV, you're getting destroyed, by the way, I mean, who's watching the six and 10 o'clock news, and who's watching primetime TV? They're certainly not watching it in real time. And so NBC, interestingly, has been pushing hard at this universal measurement. So they're taking and aggregating their over the air, their mobile app, they're streaming on Peacock, they're streaming on other platforms. And they are coming up- and this will not surprise you, they're using AI- to derive the number of an unduplicated audience being consumed on multiple platforms. So when I think about Saturday Night Live, it has maybe 3 to 4 million people who watch the show. But it has way, way millions more who are watching the clips on YouTube. And of course, they're being compensated for that. But that's viewership. And that is measured viewership. And- and again, there's dollars associated with it. I think podcasters need to sort of visualize where all of that is going. I don't care whether they watch or listen to the podcast, I want them to enjoy the podcast. And it's our job to figure out how to monetize that. On recall, a lot of people are saying that they are part of, you know, a media experience. So I'll ask somebody, did you watch the Winnipeg Jets game? They said, no, I just get notifications on my phone when the goal goes in. That's still part of the experience. I would like to say that I listened to the Calm Down podcast, with Erin Andrews and Clarissa Thompson. But the truth is, I'm just watching the clips. And I feel like I'm up to date on what they were talking about. Did you see SNL on the weekend? Of course I did. But I really just watched the TikTok. You watch the cold open, and you watch the news. And maybe there was a great bit in there that sort of surfaced up. I mean, by the way, late night TV has the same problem. I mean, Stephen Colbert, nobody's watching that show. But everybody's watching the clips. I mean, and that is the way it is on YouTube Shorts. That's the way it is on TikTok. I know that producers do not love this, I totally understand that they would prefer that you experience the entire show, and most people still do. But what freaked me out is on TikTok and YouTube Shorts, people are watching clips of TV shows. And I'm talking about old time TV shows. They're just watching a segment of Seinfeld. So yes, there's a lot of grazing going on. And you need to placate that audience, and hopefully they turn into full time listeners, full time users. But sometimes it's circumstance. Sometimes people listen to the short version, because that's all they have time for. I'll take that over passing on it. And sometimes they can go deeper and listen to the longer. Matt Cundill  12:30 Did you ask the sample about the definition of a podcast? And if it needed to include an RSS feed? And I don't know how anybody would ever phrase that without- Steve Goldstein  12:39 Nah, we didn't- we didn't get into any of that. We- what we asked was, can a podcast be audio or video? And 75% (75%!) said, oh, yes. So this wasn't a foreign thing. I mean, they weren't thinking about it. They were already there. And so yes, 75% say it could be audio or video. Boom. Matt Cundill  13:02 Tell me how he got here, then. Because for years, and not even for years, it wasn't so long ago I started my podcast, and it was, oh, you put it up and put it on Apple, and we'll put it in a few other places, and this is my audio and I'm good to go. And it didn't take long for it to change. Steve Goldstein  13:19 No, it certainly hasn't. But that's where we go back to the customer's always right. And why is that? My guess, I don't know, is that because YouTube is the second largest search engine owned by the first largest search engine, that habits had been formed already with YouTube and video. And therefore it made sense to them that it was content, and the content should be found, whether it's audio or video, on the YouTube platform. So that would be sort of the linear thinking that I think probably occurred. Matt Cundill  13:58 And you've referenced recently the three phases of podcasts. What are those three phases? Steve Goldstein  14:02 Oh, yes, here we go. So we start with the MeUndies era, which was the baked in ads, and you know, the- you can get 20% off your mattress, you can buy lots of mattresses, and you can buy lots of different food prep services. That was the first phase. So it was very low tech, baked in, sort of makes sense that it started out that way. And comfortable and very nice. But then, as we moved into more success in the space, bigger businesses wanted to get involved. And so that I call the spaghetti against the wall era, and these are companies that jumped in, and they invested heavily in podcasting. And that resulted in a lot of- well, it resulted in a handful of really good podcasts. It resulted in a lot of really bad podcasts. It resulted in IP all over the place, everybody wanting to license stuff. And- and then, you know, along with that becomes what's sustainable? What models work? And there were crazy guarantees and inflated expectations. And a lot of people who really didn't deserve to have the word "audio producer" on their resume, but they were producing audio, because it was the flavor of the moment. I'm not really negative on this, I think this is exactly what should have happened. Because it happens in every business. People jump in, they wanted to be a part of it, and then it starts to net out a bit. And that's where we are today. Okay? And that's why we've seen companies contract. That's why we've seen some go out of business, we've seen many continue to thrive. And that brings us to the third era, which is: What's a podcast? And the answer, based upon the consumers is, wherever I get it, whatever I want to do with it, if I want to watch it, if you're my friend, Jordan Harbinger, you can watch his- his podcast, he was recording it in video before the pandemic. And so it was very natural for him to add that on. For others, it won't be so natural. I mean, I think about the top podcast, The Daily, from the New York Times. Millions and millions of people listen to The Daily. Thousands of them listen on YouTube, because there is no video component. Tara Sands (Voiceover)  16:17 Transcription of the Sound Off Podcast is powered by the Podcast Super Friends. Five podcast producers who get together to discuss podcasting. Sharpen your podcast and creation skills by following the show on the Sound Off Podcast's YouTube or Facebook page. The Sound Off Podcast supports podcasting 2.0, so feel free to send us a boost if you're listening on a newer podcast app. If you don't have a newer podcast app, you can get one at NewPodcastApps.com. Matt Cundill  16:48 So my favorite takeaway, and this is great news, by the way, for fans who are of the RSS feed, or people who just want to live and die on that hill, is that 72% of podcast consumers are using multiple apps for consumption. Just a huge takeaway from the presentation you made at Podcast Movement, meaning people are finding stuff on YouTube, and then they're going to probably an RSS feed to consume it somewhere else. Steve Goldstein  17:15 And so they're- all their listening may not be on Spotify, or Apple, it may be over on YouTube, because they happen to be in YouTube when they wanted to experience that particular podcast. Fine, great. Matt Cundill  17:30 I'm not sure that this was discussed, but how important is it for CarPlay to be able to take your ecosystem of podcasts into the vehicle? Steve Goldstein  17:41 So I think that's an issue, and hopefully YouTube Music starts dealing with that, because the RSS feed does go into YouTube Music. That's sort of a nuanced, complicated thing, if you are a YouTube user versus a YouTube Music user. So I'm not sure how that's going to net out. But I certainly think that consumption of podcasts in autos are particularly low. And so that will continue, number one, to be an audio experience, of course. Let's hope. But number two, it is a growth engine for consumption. Podcasts, I don't know what the number is, 70 some odd percent, are consumed in the home. Well, we need to liberate it from the home into the car. And commercial radio, of course, is mostly in the car, not so much in the home these days. So you'll see that that sort of conflicts and changes. Matt Cundill  18:36 I think as I got up and left the auditorium after you'd given the presentation at Podcast Movement, I said to myself, I think YouTube is some sort of gateway to podcast discovery. And then people will go and find it on other apps. And I think the irony here is that podcasters keep talking about the perils of podcast discovery, and here's YouTube making it possible to be- to be discovered. I think the question I wrote down is actually what's wrong with people, but- Steve Goldstein  19:03 Nothing. Nothing's wrong with people. Matt Cundill  19:05 But I'll simp- I'll simplify it by just saying, does my podcast need to be on YouTube? Steve Goldstein  19:11 Okay, so one of the- one of the factoids from the study was from people who were using YouTube for podcasts. And we said, are you finding your favorite podcasts on YouTube? And 24%, so a quarter, said no. Now, hopefully that's changed since August when we debuted the study. I don't know what that would look like today. Hopefully, that number has gone down a little bit. But I don't think it's a zero number. I don't think everybody has placed their podcast on YouTube. And they must, because it is- going back to its core value- a search engine. It is- it's a marketplace. And so if you want more people to discover your podcast, okay, there's a lot of content on YouTube, so actually finding your podcast there is crazy hard. But it's essential, because if it's on a topic that's of interest to somebody, if your podcast is on automobiles, yes, there's plenty of videos on automobiles. But wouldn't it be great if your podcast about cars also shows up? Matt Cundill  20:19 And here we are with apps disappearing. Radio Republic is gone, Stitcher is gone. Actually, I should say Radio Republic is going. And then YouTube made an announcement that they're really happy to take your podcast in as video. So converting it from audio to video. And at the same time, we're getting rid of the Google Podcast app. So what do you see for the future of apps? Steve Goldstein  20:45 Well, I think that's already happened. You know, I mean, the graveyard is loaded with dead podcast apps, who offered nothing of value. Maybe they had a slightly better user interface, and yes, there are others that have had beautiful interfaces. But getting- getting people to download and use another app with low differentiation is near impossible. So 75% of podcast content is down- is- is inside of YouTube, Spotify and Apple. And Apple has its own challenges. I'll go back to my NYU course, all the students had iPhones, every single one. That was an important technological piece and discovery. James Cridland said to me, oh, they're all rich people. Hey, in the US, it's different. People have iPhones. But they weren't using Apple podcasts. They aren't using Apple podcasts. They were using Spotify, because they were getting their music on Spotify. And they were using YouTube because they were getting everything else on YouTube. So that sort of makes sense. So why do they need a third app, a fourth app, a fifth app? Unless there's some different differentiator, I think that's hard. And there are plenty of apps that have come out trying to take clips of shows and make that an automated process. I think that's great. I just don't know who's going to download that app. What does this mean for the people who are very adamant about Podcasting 2.0? Are they going to need Apple and Spotify buy-in in order to matriculate what they want to do down the road?  So my sense is, all of that happens over time. And that's just the way technology works. And once again, they will follow the audience's needs and desires. The producers come second. But if they want to build the marketplace and make it richer, then they will start integrating some of these tools. I don't think Podcast 2.0's explained itself particularly well. I don't think there's a clearinghouse for all of that. They can use some more advocacy, y'know on IAB, Sounds Profitable, whatever it may be. But right now, I don't think anybody can clearly illustrate the benefits of 2.0. Matt Cundill  23:00 So I pushed back on this for a long time. And I think if you go back through my Instagram feed or my YouTube feed, you'll be able to see the- the breaking point for me. And that's the creation of shorts. How can shorts help your podcast? Steve Goldstein  23:12 Billions and billions of views on YouTube Shorts are occurring every day. And I don't remember the number right now. But we'll pop it up on the screen, maybe? I think it was 40% have watched a podcast clip on YouTube Shorts. Game over. Let's do it. That's a fantastic way to promote podcasts. Matt Cundill  23:33 I guess the other thing I would probably ask is, going back to, you know, the way you summarized this entire study, and that's- you need to determine what your video strategy is. And I know that's kind of like the homework for everybody, we're a few months past, anyway, when you said that. So what should we be looking at when we're trying to determine what a video strategy is for a podcast? Steve Goldstein  23:56 So the algorithm is different in YouTube, you have to understand that, you have to look at that. It is the same as any other algorithm from the standpoint that success breeds success. I mean, if you want to be recommended, more people have to find you, listen, and like you. And so from that standpoint, it's all the same, but the keywords are different. I mean, I am not a YouTube expert. There are a lot of people who profess to be, there are some who really are, I think that's a part of the formula, but popularity at the end of the day is going to be the most important thing. Also, learning how to use video. And I do have a sense here that AI is going to play a really nice role in video. I think there can be animations, there can be transcription that is live during the video. I see this on Spotify. I like that. I think that there are more tricks and turns that can happen with AI as a video aid, if that makes sense. Matt Cundill  24:56 There's a rush to get this solved, to get this fixed, to do this now. You gave people homework to do and we're rushing. And at the same time as we're leaving the auditorium, you're saying, be patient, it's evolving. Results may vary. Steve Goldstein  25:10 Yeah, I still think that. Look, all of this is evolving. And I think about two key points here that I think are worth throwing into the mix. Number one, spoken word has grown dramatically. It's up 55, 50%, whatever it is, in nine years, you have 135 million people listening to spoken word. I mean, generationally, younger people listened to music, they did not listen to spoken word. Somebody said to me- and I've used this now a few times- talk radio, for those under 50, is podcasts. So how fast has that evolved? By the way, that should scare the crap out of you, if you're doing talk radio and commercial radio, go look at your median age and your topic, because it's a single topic. But people are interested in other things other than politics. And you see that in podcasting, you see that if you look at the top 20 podcasts. And the other thing- a really interesting data point from Edison is that more audio is now being consumed than in analog. And it just- it's just crossing now. But you just know where that's going, and especially as the demography changes, but I think that's really key to all of this. Matt Cundill  26:27 I can hear people saying, well, YouTube, it's male dominated. It's younger. You debunk- you debunked all that. Steve Goldstein  26:34 Yeah, we debunked that. That- by the way, that one was a head scratcher for us, I think we came into it thinking, oh, this is all happening on the low end. And it's not. We also thought that- that YouTube was a more confusing platform in terms of finding the content. We expected people to say, oh, my God, you know, going back to the automobile example, you call up something about autos and podcasts are down at the bottom, and there's so much video content, we're gonna get killed here. But people are smarter than that. They find what it is that is of interest to them. And so it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. But I think that's really key. Matt Cundill  27:12 Is it because YouTube is so easy to use for search? Tou can just type something in and you can get something. And you can't do that in Apple. And I don't think- I don't feel I can do that in Spotify. Steve Goldstein  27:24 Well, I use Spotify. That's my primary, and I do use it. And it depends what you're looking for. At its basis, it is a music app adapted to be a podcast app, but it's getting better and smarter, too. I applaud- you know, people like to dump on Spotify, and they've certainly had their own trials and tribs in the space, but I applaud them. This space would not be as successful if Spotify wasn't there running their science projects. Matt Cundill  27:54 It feels very overwhelming to have to take that step into video. If somebody is listening to this today, because they're thinking about making the jump into video, and they're really audio only. What's the first or second steps that you can tell them to do to maybe take a step into video, to dip their foot into the shallow end? Steve Goldstein  28:14 So I'll go back to the notion that it doesn't need to be video, and it doesn't mean to be a Hollywood production. You don't need klieg lights, we know that. We see this on YouTube Shorts, we see this on TikTok. We see this on Instagram. By the way, there are people who are really smart about how they use all of their low key tools to make things more authentic and natural. I think that's going to work fine for many podcasters. But then you have narrative podcasts, they're more complex, they're just not going to lend itself to- to video, and they don't have to. But some good titling, maybe a little animation that runs, you know, as people are listening to the podcast, just something to make it more attractive. Maybe some credits, maybe a picture of the guest that's on the podcast. I think that there are video tools that can be used here to make it a more pleasant experience. But it's not the primary experience for many podcasters and I don't think it has to be. Matt Cundill  29:15 Steve, thank you so much for getting us into the video swimming pool. Thanks for joining us once again. I really appreciate it. Steve Goldstein  29:22 Pleasure to be here. I'll see you in three years. Tara Sands (Voiceover)  29:24 The Sound Off Podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski. Edited by Chloe Emond-Lane. Social media by Aidan Glassey. Another great creation from the Soundoff Media Company. There's always more at soundoffpodcast.com.

Josie Dye is exactly what radio needs. You may recognize her name from a few places: If you're in Toronto, you'll likely have heard her on Indie 88 for the last few years, or on 102.1 The Edge back in the day. You might have also heard Cynthia & Josie's Unmentionables, her podcast with Cynthia Loyst, which has been blowing up since it launched in 2022. Or, if you're a long-time fan of the Sound Off Podcast, you may remember her as the very last guest we had on before the pandemic hit. Either way, things have certainly changed for Josie since then. Besides the rapidly-growing podcast, she's also moved from Indie 88 to possibly the most well-known call letters in Canada, 104.5 CHUM FM. In this episode, Josie tells us why she made the move, as well as sharing the (mostly) wonderful experiences she's had at all the various stations she's worked in. We also spend lots of time talking about the podcast, which, in only a few months, achieved numbers that took this show years to reach. Oh, and which she didn't even want to do at first. Check out their most recent episode below. If you're in Toronto, you can hear The Josie Dye Show on 104.5 CHUM FM, weekdays from 3-6pm EST. If you're not in Toronto, you can listen live online here at the same time. You can also connect with Josie on Facebook, Twitter/X, and Instagram. Transcription: Tara Sands (Voiceover)  00:02 The Sound Off Podcast. The show about podcast and broadcast starts now. Matt Cundill  00:12 This week I'm back with Josie Dye from 104.5 CHUM in Toronto. Josie recently finished mornings on Indie 88, and moved over to what are probably the most famous radio call letters in Canada. Josie will always have the distinction of being our last interview before the pandemic, and then everything changed, including how we do radio. And since then, much has evolved for Josie, too. I gotta say, I love this woman. She was so awesome to work with when she was at Corus-owned 102.1 The Edge in Toronto, and her energy is infectious. She's exactly what radio needs. Here we go. She's got a new podcast, new radio station, new show. The all new Josie Dye joins me from her studio and set in Toronto. So good to see you again. Josie Dye  00:59 Yeah, so nice to see you, too. Matt Cundill  01:01 Do you know, you have this sort of epic distinction on the Sound Off Podcast for being the very last interview before the pandemic. Josie Dye  01:10 What a weird time that was. It's weird, cuz I actually listened to that interview. I listened back to it, I guess a year ago. And you asked me a question in the interview about like, my worst fear. Do you remember that? You said, what's your worst fear? And I'm like, I don't really fear anything, except for maybe COVID. And then it was like, it all happened the next day. I'm like, Oh, my God. Matt Cundill  01:36 And the best part was, I think it was like March 10 or 11. And you got on a plane, you went to Aruba. You took one, maybe two kids? Josie Dye  01:45 Yeah. Matt Cundill  01:46 You got there. And then you got to watch sort of the world collapse online. And this is the kind of thing out of like a scary movie. Josie Dye  01:55 Yeah, and especially since I was traveling with a child who was immune compromised. The reason I went was to visit my mom who was there, and I feel safe with my mom when my child's sick. Like it's something that- she's in the medical field. She's- yeah, so I wanted to be near her. But I didn't really think it through, because I didn't really realize I'd be on a- like basically, Aruba's a desert. So be on a desert, where all of a sudden you start thinking, can I get off this island if I want to? So- and then you- you know, you see Justin Trudeau come on television telling everyone to get home. And you think, do you put your child through the chaos of having to get a flight that has to stop over in Chicago and New York on the way back to Toronto? And thank God for my mom who had the foresight to bring n95s with her when nobody even knew what n95s were. Like then, no one knew about a mask. No one knew. And my mom had, like a box of n95s. And we wore those the whole time and got back. And yeah, it was scary. It was definitely scary. Matt Cundill  03:00 How'd the kids do? Josie Dye  03:02 They thought it was like an adventure. So you know, I mean, I remember them just going well, can't we stay? Like are we not staying? Can we go to the beach? And yeah, that was one really great thing throughout all of COVID. My son is- has extreme anxiety, like extreme. Like, to the point where he doesn't go to sleep at night, he's scared to shut his eyes, he thinks when he shuts his eyes, he's gonna die. So it's extreme. But for- somehow- somehow we managed to isolate him, or not isolate him, but like, protect him from his fears through COVID. We had a little classroom in the basement for him with other students, because I knew he needed socialization, but at the same time, he needed to be away from other people. So we did a really, really good job. I'm really proud of myself for how I handled COVID with him, because, yeah, there were other children, unfortunately, that have the same syndrome that he has, that didn't survive. So yeah, it was- it was scary. Matt Cundill  03:59 And you did something fairly unique as a parent throughout the pandemic, and you got together with a few other parents, formed a cohort, I think it was like groups of four, maybe? Josie Dye  04:08 Yeah. Matt Cundill  04:09 Just to sort of do your best to keep the virus away from you. So how did that all come about? Was that an idea that you got from somewhere else, or that maybe the group of you came up with in order to school your children in and amongst just yourselves? Josie Dye  04:23 It was actually my doctor. My doctor, who's one of the head doctors at SickKids. She was the one who was like, I don't know what we're gonna do with Cole, because he needs people. One of his big fears is being around other kids. He gets so- he has so much anxiety, so I couldn't take him away from that system. So she said to me, she's like, have you ever thought of, you know, having a group of kids in your house or in someone's house, and then just a small group and making sure everyone's safe? And it was really- I just asked some teachers, teachers that I knew, I said, does anyone know a teacher that would want to be paid outside of the school system, and- or maybe who's just like in- in school right now, and would want to teach some kids? And we found a teacher whose mom was immune compromised, and had cancer, and was going through treatment. And so then we all made a pack. We found- we basically interviewed families. And it was funny because some families wanted to come in because they didn't like the restrictions of COVID. Right? So you had to really figure out which family was right for your child. And then we ended up having five kids in the basement, and this teacher, and it was the best education they've ever had. It was so good. I wish I could go back to that. But, you know, you also want your kid to go out and live, right? So yeah. Matt Cundill  05:46 This will probably be the last time that I asked anybody on this podcast, this question, because I feel like we've- you know, we've already talked about the pandemic, on and on and on and how it sort of affected us. But you deserve to answer this one, and be the last one, because you were the last episode I did before we got to the pandemic. And I kind of felt that, like, our episode we did was a little bit out- it got outdated, super, super fast, like three weeks later. So what was your pandemic experience like when it came to radio? You get home from- from Aruba. Now you got to figure out, how are we going to do a radio show? Josie Dye  06:23 Oh, that was the worst. I absolutely hated COVID radio. And I can't imagine anyone, especially if working on a morning show, enjoying that. I mean, there was a time where I guess it was- it was nice to be able to talk to people, like we were some comfort in some people's homes, which I loved. And we had our regulars. But what are you supposed to talk about? Right? Like nobody did anything. That was the hardest part is, my whole show is based around, you know, our lives, living a life. Like as a broadcaster, you need to have a life. If you're not living a life, you can't broadcast on the radio. So that was the hardest part. I hated being by myself, the guys I- my co hosts were in the studio, and I was by myself at the cottage, like trying to isolate my son, or here in the home with the school after, like, the restrictions had lifted a little bit. And yeah, it was lonely. It was lonely radio. Matt Cundill  07:25 You did mention the cottage, you must have been consecutive months up there at one point? Josie Dye  07:29 Yeah. So at the very beginning, you know, when it all first started, and there was- all the kids were completely at home, I just went to my parents' cottage, and I stayed there with them. Because I wanted to isolate from my husband who wasn't in Aruba with me. So and he still was running a business. So I didn't want Cole, my son who's immune compromised, anywhere near my husband, so I lived up there. And then when I came back when restrictions lifted a little bit, that's when I started the school in the basement. Matt Cundill  07:54 I feel like I need to re-qualify that Joel, your husband, has a record label. Josie Dye  07:59 Yeah. Matt Cundill  08:00 Called Dine Alone Records, lots of bands, you're in radio. Both those industries, heavily, heavily heavily hemorrhaged by a pandemic. I mean, how many conversations did you have together where you look at each other and go, what are we going to do for money? Josie Dye  08:16 Joel pivoted. He did a really good job. That's one thing I will say about him. He is so innovative, that guy. Like I wish I could have the business sense that Joel has. He went to merch, everything became merch. He sold everything online. And he had the infrastructure for it before COVID hit. He sold more money during COVID, from merch, than I think he sold in a regular year with bands. So he made his whole office a warehouse. And he just kept ordering, ordering more merch, different designs, cooler designs and promoting it online. And yeah, he's a really clever guy. So he was good. Matt Cundill  08:54 How did the radio station do throughout the pandemic? We saw numbers drop, but then we saw a lot of people double down on listening and listen twice as long and throughout the day. Like what was the feel with your audience about what you once had, versus what you wound up with a year or two in? Josie Dye  09:09 I think the first year, we were fine. I think we were okay. But then I think it killed us. COVID really hurt Indie. Indie, a local radio station. I mean, you might have heard, it just sold. But I think it just- when it came to even losing personnel, like we lost, I think most of our sales team during COVID. So that was really hard. And yeah, we struggled because a lot- even if you think about the people who listened to Indie, I felt like it was a lot of teachers. You know, you kind of have a vibe of who's always listening, and it was the teachers, the ER workers, the health care workers, and some of them obviously were still working, but a lot- lot weren't, and were really busy and too busy to listen to us. So yeah, it was hard. It was a struggle. Matt Cundill  09:59 I know you're forward looking person. But I want you to look back at 2023, where you launched an awesome podcast and you transitioned from Indie to CHUM. That's a busy year. So just rate the year out of 10. Josie Dye  10:16 Oh, fuckin' fuck. Sorry. It was a great year, and a lot of other things behind the scenes happened that pushed me to leave Indie. So I think it was- I think it's- it was an 8 and this year is going to be a 10. Matt Cundill  10:33 We don't have regular conversations about that. But you know, you just mentioned there were things behind the scenes that led me to make the decision to leave. Pandemic- again, I'll touch on it, but there's wear and tear in there. There's- there's revenue loss for the owners, and they're wonderful people. There's wear and tear on trying to get back in the studio and regain your footing and stuff like that. Did that help contribute to your departure? Was there more? Josie Dye  10:57 No, nothing like that. No, I love Indie. I love Indie. I love the people at Indie. I love my co-hosts at Indie. I love the vibe of Indie. I mean, I am somebody who is always looking to move forward. And I knew there was a ceiling. So what are you supposed to do, right? Like I- that- that was my only reason I left. That was like, the only reason, that what I meant by other contributing factors is, a lot happened in Canadian media, a lot of shifts. I got a call to audition for Breakfast Television. And it went amazing. And it was fun. And Meredith got it as well. And her and I felt like kind of had a- it was something different, it was something just so completely out of what I was doing before. And I got- it gave me a whole bunch of confidence. Like hey, Josie, what do you doing, you're- you did television, for how many years did I do TV Corus, I did TV for almost 15 years. And I- it was always in my plan. My plan was always to go to Indie, but to do TV as well. And I think the biggest problem was that nobody wanted to take the independent radio girl in this- in their big company and put them on television. So that was a huge part of it. Cynthia and I and our podcast has taken off. And I mean, I'm sure because of her name. You know, she's got a huge name in media, people love her. But I think the two of us together have a great chemistry. And I was always worried I wouldn't have the same kind of chemistry that I had with Carlin and Brent, or Carlin and Matt within- with anyone else, like you- you worry about that. Because I feel like we had something special, right? And I still love them. I love them dearly. But when I was able to recreate it with Cynthia, I was like, I can do this other places, Josie, you gotta do more. So that's what kind of pushed me to make this move. Matt Cundill  12:49 And for a lot of people who don't know this, the amount of prep that went into putting that podcast together, goes all the way back, at least I know, to- well, well before 2022, because you and I sort of talked a little bit about it. But then I saw you June 2022, and you're like, yeah, good to move forward with this. I think I've got the idea. I think we're talking, I think it's gonna go this way. But still, you're still six months, I believe, out of launching the show, or at least a number of months before it before you actually put it out there in the ether. So tell me about what you were thinking in that process of, I'm going to do a podcast, I'm just going to wait for the right moment. Josie Dye  13:29 Well, so during that school time I told you about, where it was like four parents in the basement, Cynthia was one of them. So Cynthia and I had a lot of time just to hang out, and to try to figure out what we wanted to do. We wanted to create something. But we didn't know what. We started with video, where we thought, okay, we'll make it into a television series, then we thought maybe we would make it into like a blog or a website. And then we pivoted to an app, which we were really excited about. And then we- the whole time were like, but we don't want to do a podcast, but we don't want to do a podcast. Of course, we ended up doing a podcast. We knew how challenging podcasts were, how grueling they are, how time consuming they are. And we didn't have any of that, we didn't have that desire. But then when you do it, and you realize that there are- there's an audience out there, and you really feel like it's your best work, and that it's exciting and interesting, then you end up sticking with it. And that's what we're doing. So we're doing the podcast. Matt Cundill  14:37 Did you not want to do a podcast because of the stigma that comes from everybody just doing a podcast, and because there are, by the way, so many bad podcasts out there, and it became very cliche, and everyone's got a yoga membership, or is- if you don't have a yoga membership, you've got a- you know, you're a yoga instructor. Where everybody sort of has one and you wanted to do something just a little bit different, but- yet the most successful content creators always find find a way to have a successful podcast. Josie Dye  15:02 Yeah. And that's the thing, right? It's like, you always hear about people who get fired from radio, and then they start a podcast. And I was like, I don't know, I don't want to do a podcast. But I think if you can do it well, and it's interesting, like yours, then there's something there. And we're doing- our numbers are great. We have such loyal, loyal fans that listen to every single episode. And, yeah, I'm really excited. Matt Cundill  15:28 It took you just a few months to get to a quarter million downloads. It took me seven years to get to a quarter million downloads. Josie Dye  15:38 Well, I'm telling you, I think Cynthia's name has a lot to do with that. I'm going on Cynthia's name. That's what I'm going on. But yeah no, we- we've done really well. And we've just been really open and have talked about our journeys. And Cynthia just went through, like, a burnout period in her life, where she was just had- she was taking on too much, including the podcast, and we uncovered that on the podcast. And yeah, I think that's like, our biggest thing, is we've been- we thought we were going to be extremely open on day one. And I think we still are, but not as extremely as we thought at the beginning. But yeah, we just share our lives. Matt Cundill  16:21 You talked about cheating on your boyfriend. That's pretty open. Josie Dye  16:25 Yeah, that's- Yeah. Yeah, that's pretty open, yeah. Matt Cundill  16:27 She's talking about rolling over onto her side and exposing hemorrhoids. That's pretty open. Josie Dye  16:33 Yeah, we talk about everything. Matt Cundill  16:35 There are sexcapades involved. You're not a keen fan of sex positions and going by the book, you just like to let it happen. I think this is a pretty open podcast, Josie. Josie Dye  16:46 I think so too, now that you give me- Yeah, now that you're actually talking back about all of our topics. Yeah. You're right. It's a pretty open podcast. Matt Cundill  16:55 This subject matter is why you have a quarter million downloads in a few months, and the subject of broadcast takes seven years to get to the same level.  Okay, maybe.  You're not afraid of controversy. This week, you've got Jann Arden on. Josie Dye  17:08 Yes, Jann's on talking about how everyone shouldn't drink. No drinkers. She's great. She's- She's- this is her second time on, the first episode she came on, it was titled, did Jann Arden sleep with Cynthia Loyst? And we we got to the bottom of that. And this time she's just talking about- I don't want to say just, she's talking about a real serious topic, and talking about alcohol and her relationship with alcohol. So yeah, check it out if you get a chance. Matt Cundill  17:36 One of the things you're worried about when you're coming up with this idea for the podcast, is am I going to get along with Cynthia and are we going to have- is it going to click and is it going to work? Okay, it works. Now I'm going to put the Ross Winters, program director hat on here, and talk about role definition. So usually when personalities get together to do- to do a show, I'm going to be this and this is really what I'm about, you're gonna be this and this is what you're about. Give me a little sneak peek into the difference between the two of you when it comes to role definition on the podcast, or is there any at all? Josie Dye  18:10 There is, there's definitely a definition which we never really spoke about. It was just so natural. I think that Cynthia's a host. She's a great host. She's a way better host than I am, even though that was my job on air. And I think I'm more of the reactor. She has a beautiful laugh. So she really- you know, you always want someone to have a beautiful laugh. And she has a beautiful laugh. And yeah, she keeps the fun going, and I love to always have fun. So yeah, it's a complete role reversal from me at Indie, when I was the host, and like the guys were like the comic relief. Tara Sands (Voiceover)  18:48 Yranscription of the Sound Off Podcast is powered by the You May Also Like podcast, the show about people, places and things. Follow the show on your favorite podcast app, or at YouMayAlsoLike.net. The Sound Off Podcast supports podcasting 2.0. So feel free to send us a boost if you're listening on a newer podcast app. If you don't have a newer podcast app, you can get one at NewPodcastApps.com. Matt Cundill  19:16 You took the summer off, did that have a lot to do with Cynthia's need to take a step back? Or did you guys just like summers off? Josie Dye  19:23 We just like summers off. We wanted summers off. We work hard. We both work really hard. And then actually, it's funny, because we took the summers off from, like, actually putting episodes out. But we managed to have more downloads in the summer, because we kept our social media going strong, like really strong. In fact, our social media in this summer was way better than our social media in the winter. So I think it worked. We got to focus on social media. Every day we were together because she was at my cottage or her kid was over, and we were doing videos, and we were outside, and we loved doing that. So we're going to do that again this year. Oh, that's quite Matt Cundill  20:01 Oh that's quite eye opening to- you know, to hear that. Because I think the subject matter, again, sort of lends itself to summer. It's summer, I want to be free-er, I want to listen to stories, I want to escape into your lives. I don't know anybody who wants to, you know, take the Sound Off Podcast to go listen to a business conversation about radio consulting on their August long weekend at the lake. Like that's just- that's not going to happen. But it's so nice to know that you don't need to produce new episodes in the summer. But I will preface, because I heard this on one of your recent episodes, is that you didn't stop recording. You would leave messages, you would bank some audio. So you were preparing for the move to CHUM. But you banked some audio about your feelings in the moment, about what it's going to be like to make that move. And then when- then you release the audio at the front end of an episode. And I can still feel that- you know, there was still that authenticity. This is recorded on July 12. If you're listening to this, now I've made the move. And now I'm letting you know that it's public. Josie Dye  21:00 Yeah, we did a lot of that, we do a lot of that. Whenever we feel like we have something we want to talk about in the moment, I'll just say let's go to the basement and record it. So we'll record it. And then it's banked. And then we love to just be completely honest and open with anyone who's listening and say, listen, this was recorded on August 20, or this part of the episode was recorded on this day, because it happened to us on this day. And then here's how we feel about it. So we do that a lot. I always feel like it's better just to be in the moment, and to be genuine when stuff's going on with you. When- when Cynthia was crying nonstop. And she was like, I can't do a podcast. I'm- I've got so many emotions. I said I get it. But let's just talk. We don't have to put this out. But let's just record what you're feeling now. And we'll come back to it in two months. And you can look at- listen to it, and tell me how you feel. So we did. And then we came back to it, and she was like, Oh, I think it's good to put the messy out there. So people see what it was actually like in that moment. At the time, she couldn't clearly think, so I didn't want her to put it out. But looking back at it, we have that and she thought, you know, this is good that people are able to hear and see what I actually went through. So yeah. Matt Cundill  22:07 Who's going through all this audio? Who's banking this audio? Who's carrying around the recorders to do this all the time? Josie Dye  22:13 That's called Josie. Hi, it's just the two of us. We have nobody else. We have absolutely nobody. It's just the two of us. We've split up our roles. I do all the editing, I do all the audio. And I do all the social media. And Cynthia does all the writing. She does all the booking of the guests, she does all the- if there's any interview, she does- like we do a lot of like print, she'll write all of that stuff. I will transcribe the audio, and she'll go through it and highlight edits, and then I'll just edit it from that. So yeah, we both work really hard, and I think we're a good team. We both love it. Matt Cundill  22:50 So it's a team of two. Josie Dye  22:52 It's a team of two. Matt Cundill  22:53 That's incredible, and the video that goes along with it. So you dabbled with video to start. And now everyone in podcasting is like video strategy, video strategy, video strategy, on and on and on. How does the video intertwine with what we listen to on Apple Podcasts? Josie Dye  23:08 So we still record everything. You see, as my nice background, we still record all of our stuff. And we don't put up the whole episode. We just feel like, what's the point? We don't put up- but we do, you know, take clips out and put it online. And then we do other video, like so we do video that has absolutely nothing to do with a podcast, or maybe it does, but it's something completely different. And then we'll either put that on our website, we haven't done that lately, but mostly just goes on social media. Matt Cundill  23:36 And that's really the template now for podcasts, is to just put out a clip of what you're talking about. It could be two minutes, it could be three minutes. It could be- it could be short, it could be five minutes, but most people will watch it and go, yeah, I'd totally listen to that show. And they'll never download the episode. But they feel like they're always in contact with the show by just watching the clips. Josie Dye  23:56 Absolutely. You can tell, too. When someone's like, oh, yeah, when you talked about this, I'm like, oh, that's the one clip we put up online. Yes, of course, which is fine. I don't even care as long as our name is out there. And I think eventually, people who know us are going to come to us for certain episodes. And that's what has- what has happened lately. You know, we'll have the one where Cynthia just came back after burnout. We had 14,000 downloads in one day. And it's like, okay, there's, you know, people want that. They're not going to come back for the next one. But that's okay, because there's something for everybody. Matt Cundill  24:29 So there's a myth that I've perpetuated to many of my clients, I've just said, no breaks, never take a break. You're not allowed to take a break. You should always be putting stuff out there. And I guess a lot of people can't afford to take breaks, but just I think with the content that you have, you can come back after a certain period of time off, but I also think it helps if you don't really go away. We see you in other forms of social media. You've got a radio show. You'll make appearances on- on the social. So yes, you can take a break from your podcast, but you should be still visible in other aspects. Josie Dye  25:02 Yeah. And I think that our social media has really helped, I think just by- on our own accounts, and then we have our Cynthia and Josie's account, that has really helped. And we've also put out episodes. So if we started last year in February, we put out an episode in the middle of summer as well, like one of our old ones. And we're going to start doing that, we're going to start recreating, like, some of our old episodes, and maybe have a different beginning, and then just repurpose it. Matt Cundill  25:31 What is something you've learned from podcasts that has surprised you? Josie Dye  25:35 I think I've learned a lot about myself. I actually think that I was always really insecure about my abilities. And I always thought I was like, the token girl on like, the rock radio- radio, and I have a nice voice, right? You know, when it's like you're pigeon holed into a girl who has a nice voice, and you're like, oh, yeah, she's the girl with a nice voice. But I think it took me to do the podcast to really realize that I have talent. And it's so weird to say, because it's like you- you're bragging about yourself. But it's true. Like it took me to be able to actually let people either laugh or cry, and some of the messages that we've had, because you talked a lot about, like, the sex stuff. But we also have had, you know, I've talked to- did a whole episode about Cole. I've done a whole episode about my stalker that I can't shake. And there's just been so many really great episodes that people have connected with. So I've learned that I have a talent as a storyteller. And it's also- I think, other than the fact that it's grueling, it's a lot of work, I think it's nice to be able to know that you have a partner, who is a friend, who you truly want to succeed. I think we're lying to ourselves if we think that we always want our friends to do really well. Sometimes in the back of our heads, we're kind of jealous. And we think, oh, I want them to do well, but not as well as me. Whereas when you're with somebody who you have a business with, because this podcast is a business, I want her to kill it. I want her to be the biggest star. And selfishly, yes, because it helps me, but also because I'm proud of us. I'm proud of her talent, I'm proud of my talent. It's like a really nice feeling to really want your partner to do really well in life. So I don't know, that's kind of what I learned. Matt Cundill  27:30 I was gonna ask sorta like, how is podcast different than radio, but you've just brought so many of your radio skills into creating this- this podcast. What are the differences other than just one's real time and the other one's on demand? Josie Dye  27:42 I don't think there's very many differences at all. I mean, I think that radio at least in- I mean, what I'm doing now is very different than a morning show. So it's hard to like, you know, change my mind, but- but it's still about telling a story. It's about teasing the story. It's about somehow connecting with some sort of emotion. And it's about being vulnerable. And that's our whole industry. Our industry is like, it's about you, when someone criticizes you, the reason why it's so hard to take, it's because it's either you're telling a story about yourself, or you're telling- you're talking, but you- it's you, it's you as a person, and that's why it's like- it's- and it's the same with a podcast, you know, if someone's like, oh, I hated that episode. They didn't actually hate the topic. They hate the way you portrayed it, or the way you told the story. So, yeah, I think they're very similar. Matt Cundill  28:39 I'm sure you're a very smart negotiator when it comes to making a job change. For instance, I am not. I would look at- I'm doing mornings. And now I get the opportunity to do three to six every day on another radio station. Where do I sign? And I don't care what I get paid, because the hours would be so much better. Josie Dye  28:56 Oh, no, come on. No. Matt Cundill  28:59 But that's such a big transition for you and your family. Because you've done mornings for so long. Now you're going to the afternoon. So what's the adjustment been like for the whole fam? Josie Dye  29:08 It's different. What time is it? It's 9:30 in the morning, so yesterday, I was at work at 10am. And everyone was like, why are you here at 10am? And I'm like, I don't know why. I don't know what to do. I have to go to work. So I've been- I'm only on week three. So I still have to figure out the hours. I haven't adjusted to the hours yet. I did go out last night. It's been a long time since I've gone out on a Tuesday night. I went out on Tuesday night. Matt Cundill  29:37 Where'd you go? Josie Dye  29:38 I went to dinner in Leslieville here with a few radio friends, which was fun, but it's an adjustment. I'm a morning girl. My eyes open at four. Opening your eyes at seven is harder than opening your eyes at four. That's what I think. I will always think that. Seven it's like, I could sleep, why- this- it was so hard to get up at seven right now. But I think there'll be some beautiful things that come out of this time shift, having breakfast with my kids in the morning, not doing homework with them after school, just gonna be some great things. So I just have to keep going. Matt Cundill  30:12 The thing I love about afternoons and three to six, is that you get the lion's share of the show prep. I mean, you've got three hours to fill. And you've got- you've had a whole day where the tone has been set. And all the news items of the day are in front of you, you just get the lion's share of what to talk about in this short period. And I'm sure there's- I mean, it's a lot easier than doing it at three or four in the morning. Josie Dye  30:36 I don't know about that. So my only criticism with that would be, then you talk about the exact same thing everyone else talks about. Right? So I think the best content is the content that naturally happens to you, which could happen to you if you have the entire day off, after a morning show, where you're, you know, going to a mall and something happens or- or walking down the street. Whereas when you have your shift in the evening, you're kind of always preparing, always preparing, sometimes preparing too much. And it- like this is- listen, this is just me, I haven't figured it out yet. I'm getting there. I'm getting there. And maybe you're right, I'm getting there. I'll figure it out. Matt Cundill  31:19 I think that was- it was kind of my point, is like, you can talk about, you know, what you saw at lunch or something, like a real life moment. It's still live two hours later, and you can refine it and away you go. I mean, you get the lion's share of real life things that happen. I certainly don't want to get into the- you know, the very short news cycle that we're all in. Because stuff just comes and goes, but you are living a life. Josie Dye  31:41 It'll be different. And I'm going to love it. And I'm going to enjoy it. And it's just an adjustment. Matt Cundill  31:47 Well, I can tell you're enjoying it. I mean, the picture you posted yesterday, has his beaming smile. And you look so happy in this space. And the only thing that's different are the colors, you know, where you're doing it from, and the music. So- so let's talk about the pop radio thing, because so, so many years of Foo Fighters, and now it's different. Josie Dye  32:10 Could you- if you could look at my DMs right now, if you could look at my DMs, you would be like, oh, fuck. I have a lot of angry rock people who are like, what did you do to me? Josie, you're a sellout. Josie, why would you do this? Why would you leave? You know, because they think for some reason that I'm only allowed to stay in alternative music. And that's it. I can't leave. But yeah, it's- listen, I'm a music lover. And I am so happy to be still in music. And I'm happy that I'm doing something different, because it's actually made me love alternative a little bit more. When you work in alternative every day, you don't want to go home and listen to the new Black Keys album. It's like the last thing you want to do. I was listening to Katy Perry when I was coming home. I was listening to- you know, I would put Taylor Swift on for my kids. And then we were all dancing. Now I have- oh, I want that new Black Keys album, someone give it to me. So I think that's just the way it's going to be in life. It's going to be- for me, especially as someone who is a music lover, my husband owns record label. Most people think it's alternative. He works with P!NK! People forget that. He works with P!NK. So I don't think it's ever been genre based for me. Matt Cundill  33:26 What's the secret to a good marriage? Josie Dye  33:29 I don't know. Matt Cundill  33:30 Okay, great. Josie Dye  33:31 Don't ask me. Why are you asking me? Joel probably can hear me right now. He's like in the other room. No, we're good friends. We're great friends. We're both really, really passionate about our jobs and our work and we love our kids. And yeah, it's working. So knock on fucking wood right now. Find it. Matt Cundill  33:50 I mentioned that because you post up some of the things that go on in his life as well. There's going to be an event taking place at Montebello Park. That's important to him, and I go, there's support going on there. There's- there's a lot of sharing that goes on, and you don't have to share everything on air or online about your marriage. So as somebody who went 0 for 1 on it, I thought it as somebody who's 1 for 1. Josie Dye  34:13 Are you still doing it? No. I'm- I mean, like, yeah, he works hard. I have a lot of respect for all the stuff that he does. And it's funny, he said to me after I shared like his little- cause they just announced the concert. The first thing he said is, thanks. That was really sweet. You made me look a little desperate, Jos. You know what's gonna sell out, right? And I was like, oh, I didn't know that. I wouldn't have asked everyone to share it. Because like it's beautiful what he does, he's an independent- in this case, promoter. Because this is his show. He has done everything. He has looked at, you know, who's coming to pick up the garbage. He's looked at the food trucks, like he takes care of this show, and he does a really good job, so. Matt Cundill  34:53 yeah, and we're gonna give away tickets to that show right now. Caller 9 will receive four VIP tickets to the show. So give us a call. We'll take care of that. Thanks. Josie Dye  35:02 Podcasts could do that. I still don't know why they don't. We could figure out a way to do that. Matt Cundill  35:07 I'm thinking about how that can be done, yeah. Josie Dye  35:09 I could get you the tickets. If you want to do it right now, I could get you the tickets. Matt Cundill  35:13 How cool is it, by the way, it was- or maybe it wasn't cool. But Edge, you know, our former company, Corus, giving you the shout out on social media when you made the jump? Josie Dye  35:22 They do? What? I didn't see that. Matt Cundill  35:25 Oh, God. Gonna make me go look for this? They did. Josie Dye  35:31 Shit, who did it? Matt Cundill  35:32 Somebody at Edge in the social media department, I guess. Josie Dye  35:35 What did they say? Oh, good. She's gone. Matt Cundill  35:38 And that's what I was thinking. They can't wait to get her off our number one cross tuning radio station. Goodbye and good luck. Josie Dye  35:46 Tucker is a good friend of mine. And I talk to him all the time. And my- right, like I- so many of them, right? Because it's such a small industry. We know everyone. And yeah, he was like, everyone's happy you're going. And I'm like, thanks. Thanks, Tucker. No, in a nice way. But I didn't know that, that they gave me a little shout out. That's really sweet. Matt Cundill  36:03 Gotta be Tucker and Maura. Josie Dye  36:05 It has to be, probably it was them. Yeah. Matt Cundill  36:07 That would be in their wheelhouse. Josie Dye  36:08 Yeah, yeah, for sure. But yeah, no, I mean, like that's the thing. Looking back in my career, I have loved every station I've been at, like CFNY, people are still- that's all they talk about is, you know, oh, you were there in the heyday, which everyone thinks it's the heyday when it's their time as a kid listening to that station. And then what I got out of Indie, both of those stations today, without fail, I would go back to if the situation was right. You know what I mean? Like if it was right for my career. I love both of those stations with everything that I have. Like I put a lot into them, I worked hard at them. And I think Indie will be great with the new owner and I'm excited for them. Matt Cundill  36:47 Is it like going to the All Star Game of radio when you go to work every day? Because you walk down the hall, there's there's Ashley. There's Lisa. Oh, Karen Steele. Sam East. It's an all star lineup, like at every turn. Josie Dye  37:01 Yeah. Darren Jones is there now. I love Darren, Darren and I have worked together so many times. So every day he kind of like comes in this little room that I'm in, and we just chat. I'm like Darren! It's so great that you're there. Oh my god, everyone is great at CHUM. And yeah, they've all been around for so long. And they've got so much experience and, you know, even working with like, all the managers, there's so many of them. And they're so skilled. So it's really nice that I have that, and it's- it feels good. Matt Cundill  37:29 If I were to throw you on the social today or any other day, how much busier does that make your day? Because I often think about oh, there's Josie, okay, how busy is she today? Josie Dye  37:42 I mean, I'm the girl who was there yesterday at 10am, so... Looking for something to do. Like, oh, you take everything you do on the social, and you put it on your radio show. So as long as someone can do your hair and makeup and you've got a dress available, I'm ready. Matt Cundill  37:57 Thanks for doing this at this early hour of the morning. I really appreciate it. Josie Dye  38:00 Thank you for having me. Matt Cundill  38:02 It's not like we once did this when it was 2020 and there was no video involved. But- Josie Dye  38:08 Oh, yeah. Matt Cundill  38:08 Video what it is now, I guess we have to have a video component, and even if people just want to watch us talk, I think it's gonna be great. Josie Dye  38:14 You can look at my background. There we go. Matt Cundill  38:18 Thanks, Josie. Josie Dye  38:19 Thanks, Matt. Tara Sands (Voiceover)  38:20 The Sound Off Podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski. Edited by Chloe Emond-Lane. Social media by Aidan Glassey. Another great creation from the Soundoff Media Company. There's always more at Soundoffpodcast.com.

Carly Kincaid may use the term "Radio Junkie" to describe herself, but she's also a voiceover pro you hear on corporate narrations and when you are put on hold. Her radio career kicked of in the late 90's and since then she has rarely veered away from a microphone. In this episode, you will hear about Carly's passion for radio and voiceover work, revealing it's "in her blood." She talks about how her favourite radio host growing up was Rick Sadler, and they saw him in a restaurant without realizing it was him until after the fact, and despite her parents' disapproval, and she eventually went back to school to pursue a degree in broadcasting. You'll also hear about working with Steve Jones, what life was like with the radio station positioned inside the world's second largest shopping mall, and how she built her own recording studio from scratch. We might have touched on AI as well and what it means for radio and voiceover talent. Carly's first concert was going to be Debbie Gibson... until it became Candi & and the Backbeat. Whatever happened to Candi? She dropped by Boom 97.3 to talk about what it was like the first time she heard her song "Under Your Spell" on the radio. Wanna see our downloads? Of course you are because you are snoopy and nosey. We added the Sound Off Podcast to the The Open Podcast Prefix Project (OP3) A free and open-source podcast prefix analytics service committed to open data and listener privacy. You can be a nosey parker by checking out our downloads here. We also mention David Tyler in this episode. He is the voice of CTV News in Canada and he is also a voiceover coach. If you are a voice actor, sign up for his newsletter and periodically there will be invites to OFFICE HOURS where we call get together to talk voiceover. And while we are still on voiceover people and talent, Carly also mentioned the name of Uncle Roy Yorkelson who will help voice actors with their home setups, or demos. And finally, there was mention of VO Atlanta in this episode. That is a voiceover conference taking place in March 7-10. Yes it is worth it. TRANSCRIPTION Tara Sands (Voiceover)  00:02 The Sound Off Podcast. The show about podcast and broadcast starts now. Matt Cundill  00:13 About once a month, I meet my voice over group, which is chaired and run by David Tyler, who you might know as the voice of CTV News in Canada. By the way, you can do so as well if you're in voiceover, and if you sign up for his newsletter. Anyhow, Carly Kincaid appeared in the meeting and I thought, whatever happened to Carly Kincaid after I left Edmonton over 20 years ago? Turns out voiceover, and lots more. Carly is very versatile. She started in radio before the turn of the millennium, did some TV, did some radio from a helicopter, built a home studio to do voice work, and got a RodeCaster. All the boxes appear checked. Now, Carly Kincaid joins me from her voice studio in Edmonton, Alberta. Carly Kincaid  01:01 I was born a radio geek. Like I remember when I was probably 11 or 12 years old, watching TV, and I'd have my radio beside me and I'd have the cassette in it. And I'd need to push record because I might miss something. I mean, I don't have a better explanation for that other than I think it's just in my blood. Matt Cundill  01:20 So what were you listening for? Commercials or jock talk or songs? Carly Kincaid  01:25 Mostly talking. But then if I had favorite songs, that too, but I wanted to hear what they would say. Matt Cundill  01:31 Who is they? And specifically, we want call letters and names. Carly Kincaid  01:36 At that time, I was living in Calgary, so it was AM 106 and Rick Sadler, he was my favorite. I would love to meet him one day. I saw him in a restaurant once and I didn't know it was him until after the fact, when somebody said that was Rick Sadler. I'm like, what? Matt Cundill  01:50 Was that when the station was alternative? Carly Kincaid  01:52 No, it was like top 40 pop. Matt Cundill  01:54 Right. And AM too, to boot. Carly Kincaid  01:57 Right? They had these like big posters with like, the countdowns. And, yeah, it was a big deal at that time. Matt Cundill  02:05 What was the gateway drug to FM for you? Carly Kincaid  02:08 Well, we had moved, and then I know AM 106 flipped or changed and did other things on that frequency. And then I think it was just a matter of what was playing, what I liked at that time, and basically what caught my attention. Matt Cundill  02:21 So when is that moment when you say, I gotta be on the radio? And what did you do to get there? Carly Kincaid  02:26 Well, I always knew I wanted to be on the radio. And my parents had a different idea. Because apparently, if you're not sitting at a desk and, you know, pushing numbers or something, it's not a real job. So I went to university for couple years, hated every minute of it, because it wasn't what I wanted to do. And- like it was just arts. And then finally, when I aged out of my parents, you know, having to control, you know, the funds and all that sort of stuff. I decided I was gonna go back to school, take broadcasting, and I paid for it myself. And it was fantastic. It was everything that I wanted. I went to Mount Royal in Calgary. I know the program has changed since, but you could do- you did radio and TV, it was one year of each. And so you got a good taste of both, which was nice, because, you know, sometimes for some people, you don't know early on exactly which way you want to go. And so it did give me a taste of both, but radio was still my thing. Matt Cundill  03:20 What was the first time you got to enter a radio station, as maybe an intern or an employee? Carly Kincaid  03:25 I was gonna say, when I won prizes, then I would go pick up the prizes. Matt Cundill  03:28 Were you a prize pig? Carly Kincaid  03:29 No, not terribly, but I was a kid, right? So you always want to call up and- and see if you can get through, and I don't think I won anything ever very good, but maybe some concert tickets. Matt Cundill  03:40 Do you remember the first thing you won? Carly Kincaid  03:42 Hmmm. Well, I don't know if this was the first, but it was probably pretty close. Do you remember Candy & The Backbeat? Matt Cundill  03:47 Oh, my goodness, absolutely. Carly Kincaid  03:50 I won tickets to see Candy & The Backbeat. Matt Cundill  03:53 Wow. I thought about this like three days ago. I know why actually, I thought about it, because I was looking at a full moon in a Spanish speaking country. So the song Dancing Under A Latin Moon came into my head, at which point I thought, whatever happened to that band? Carly Kincaid  04:08 Right? Matt Cundill  04:09 And as far as I know, I think the band- I'd heard rumors that they broke up somewhere on tour in Truro Nova Scotia in the early part of the 90s. And then that was it. They just had the one or two hits, and off they went. Carly Kincaid  04:22 Haven't heard about them since. Matt Cundill  04:24 So did you go to the show? Carly Kincaid  04:26 It was good. Well, so I took my next door neighbor, because it was kind of a last minute thing. And so she wanted- she was a little bit older, which was exciting. So we went together. But I was supposed to go, and this would have been my first real concert. I had tickets to see Debbie Gibson, also in Calgary. And it was like days after this Candy show. So I was thinking, oh, this is gonna be my first concert. And then all of a sudden Candy & The Backbeat jumps in there and takes my first concert. So. Matt Cundill  04:51 Wow. You know, I think one of the Stingray stations, I- it's probably boom in Toronto, had her talk about the song. Y'know where they put the record on the turntable, and then talk about your song for about three or four minutes? Carly Kincaid  05:03 Yeah. Matt Cundill  05:03 And if I can find the embed code, I'm going to put that in the show notes for this episode so that people can go and reference that on the episode page. And if I've forgotten to do that, somebody send me an email and- and remind me. So when did you first get to a radio station and you started to get compensated for showing up for work? Carly Kincaid  05:20 So I started in Calgary, and I was so fortunate because so many people go to small markets to begin with. And so I started in Calgary, and in Canmore, at like, the same time, because they were both Rogers stations. And so I was able to work in both and live in Calgary, commute out. So I was driving the station vehicle doing promotions. And then you know, I kind of worked my way up, hey, can you do the weather overnights? Hey, can you do this or that? And so I was there for, between the two stations, year or so. And then an opening came through the Rogers station in Victoria. So I went out to Victoria. That was my big move for radio, all by myself and didn't know anybody. And off I went and I was there for about a year also. Matt Cundill  05:22 Was that a swing position? Weekends? Carly Kincaid  06:08 It was evenings. Matt Cundill  06:09 In Victoria. Carly Kincaid  06:10 Yeah. Matt Cundill  06:11 You've escaped winter. Congrats. Carly Kincaid  06:14 Yeah, like I mean, that was a pretty cool thing. So now I'm eyeballs deep in winter, and... Matt Cundill  06:20 I was working in Edmonton, but right around the time that you started, this is where I first heard of you. And I was leaving The Bear. But you came in and you were working at NewCap, I believe the stations were. Carly Kincaid  06:31 Probably. Matt Cundill  06:32 Yeah. Big Earl. Carly Kincaid  06:35 Yeah, that's true. When I first got to Edmonton, yeah, I was with NewCap for quite a bunch of years, actually. And there were a bunch of evolutions with the station, and started out on 99th Street and then moved to West Edmonton Mall, which was quite a fun thing. The things that we could do in that mall, like riding segways up and down. And you know, just some very cool things that otherwise you wouldn't get an experience like. Matt Cundill  06:58 There's a hockey rink in there. Carly Kincaid  07:00 There is. Matt Cundill  07:01 What about people coming and dropping by to say hi? Was it- was there more of that? Carly Kincaid  07:05 Yeah, I think it happened more in the early days of the stations being there than it does now. But yeah, people would come by, you'd open up the front door, like just into the mall, and people could walk in, or you could shut it too, kind of whatever. But I think in my experience, if people want to talk to you, they're going to find a way to talk to you. It doesn't have to be in the mall. Matt Cundill  07:23 But it's convenient, though, for those who don't live inside the city. What are you gonna go into the city for? We're gonna go to the mall. Hey, look, there's a radio station, we'll stop in and just say hello in between going to The Bay and Sears or whatever else was going on there. Carly Kincaid  07:38 Exactly. And like there was a stage there. I mean, the stage is still there. But yeah, like so much great stuff. And just so many opportunities with them all. Matt Cundill  07:47 I forgot about the stage. Carly Kincaid  07:48 The HMV stage, that's what it was called at the time. And then the station took over the name of it. And- but it was yeah, the HMV was right behind, which was kind of a neat backdrop. If you had anybody come in, that you were going to, you know, have perform on the stage or whatever. Matt Cundill  08:04 I remember Moist was there, in the- probably the early 2000s. And I think they might have done a little bit of a show and they did a signing, but the signing didn't go well. It became overwhelmed and the HMV had to close and clean up. Carly Kincaid  08:16 Oh no. And I remember, this wasn't- it had nothing to do with me, but I remembered seeing- it was a talent show that was on that stage. And Ed Sheeran was in town, and he came up and sang with a girl right on that stage. Matt Cundill  08:27 So you do like five some-odd years in Edmonton, who are some of the people that you worked with, that you learned from, or did not learn from? Carly Kincaid  08:36 Steve Jones would be at the top of the list. I'm sure you know him. He's off in the East now. And I actually talked to him on email just a couple days ago. Fantastic. And his mind is just so smart. And such a kind man. So he is somebody- I mean, he was the one that brought me to Edmonton in the first place. And the fact that we can still be in touch, and I think that that's pretty awesome. Matt Cundill  08:58 First time I met Steve was at the mall. I think it was Reds. And- or one of the places in the mall we could play pool, but I just want everybody to know that Edmonton is more than just meeting at the mall. Carly Kincaid  09:09 What? I don't know what you're talking about. Matt Cundill  09:13 It's a big- I mean, it's a big city. Right? Carly Kincaid  09:16 It is, yeah. Matt Cundill  09:17 Can you speak to, for a moment, about how competitive it is? Because a lot of people, when they went through that in that era, it's like all these radio stations popping up all over the place. Carly Kincaid  09:25 There are so many stations. I don't even know how many at the moment. But we always talked about how many pieces that the pie would have to get cut into. And they're all so tiny and skinny, because there's just so many stations. So yeah, it is- it is very competitive. But the whole scene of radio is different now. How much is voice tracked? How much is live? You know, it's just it's different than it used to be, where everybody had full time employees and everybody was there. Matt Cundill  09:52 You've been pretty much fully ingrained in Edmonton since that time. Right? Carly Kincaid  09:56 Mhm. Matt Cundill  09:56 And you did leave radio for a period to do TV? Carly Kincaid  09:59 Yeah. A small, small period of time, and it was a great experience. I went and I did TV at Shaw TV. And I did entertainment reporting. So that was kind of like, the other side of things in that, you know, I still got to do the, you know, talk to the Lady Gagas. And the, you know, all of these people that I got to interview, it was just a different sort of perspective. So I can- you know, it was nothing but a great experience. But radio is my jam. It's my thing. And I just feel like, I don't know who I would be without it. Matt Cundill  10:30 Edmonton is such a special place. Can you speak to how special Edmonton is when it comes to communities getting together for good, for bad, more than just the Oilers and the mall? You know, charity comes to mind, for instance. Carly Kincaid  10:44 Yeah, obviously. I mean, this is a mall radio story. But when Hurricane Katrina happened, all these kids in the southern United States lost their stuff. We called and said, you know what, hey, people, we need stuffies. Bring stuffies. And they brought hundreds of thousands of them to the mall, just because we said hey, you know, people need these things. And granted, you know, it was- it's a fun, you know, sort of thing that you're asking for, but it made a huge difference to these kids who inevitably got them. So stuff like that. I mean, obviously, we- we like our 50/50s and the money from them- from those go a long way. Yeah, I mean, you ask for something and people will come together for it. Matt Cundill  11:26 It's funny- again, another Edmonton memory has come back. I went to the hockey game with Terry Evans one night, and he won the 50/50. And I was sitting beside him, I think he- I think he left with about 20 grand. Carly Kincaid  11:37 Yeah, and another of our radio friends, Adam McHale. He won something at one of them, too. And it was a bunch of money. Matt Cundill  11:44 And the 50/50 phenomenon- you know, it's more than 20 grand now. It used to be just, you know, let's throw a couple of bucks in. And now everybody goes nuts for it. I think the Oilers stuff can get up there into six figures easily now. Carly Kincaid  11:54 Yeah. And then you get people who live in other provinces that are like, Hey, you want to go in on this? I'm going to Etransfer you 20 bucks. Matt Cundill  12:01 Yeah, I think you can just buy some of them online, as long as you live in the province now. Carly Kincaid  12:05 You totally can. Because I've done it. Matt Cundill  12:09 I mean, you got to win tickets to Candy & The Backbeat, but you haven't won the 50/50 yet. Carly Kincaid  12:13 That's right. That's my next thing. Matt Cundill  12:15 And then you went back to radio, though. Carly Kincaid  12:17 Yeah, it was my jam. It was my thing. After I'd taken a couple of mat leaves, it actually worked out really well for me, because I was doing an evening shift with Pattison. And it worked out so well, because I could be home with my kids during the day. My husband worked early mornings. So we basically could, you know, we hung out in the afternoon as a family, which would have been so weird if people didn't know what we did. Saw us all at the park two in the afternoon. But he was able to go to work in the morning. I went in the evening and didn't miss much of that kid time because they went to bed. Matt Cundill  12:46 You're fairly versatile. Carly Kincaid  12:48 I like to think so. Matt Cundill  12:50 Yeah. I mean, you've done all the shifts, you can voice track, you've done traffic reporting. Carly Kincaid  12:55 Yes. That was super fun. Matt Cundill  12:58 It was a helicopter, or a plane? Carly Kincaid  13:00 Helicopter. And it's funny, because when I first went in it, I'd never been in a helicopter before. And they're like, okay, well, you know, everything looks good. You look like you'd be good for this position. Let's get in the helicopter. Because some people might have a problem. And I had no trouble being up that high. No trouble. It's so funny though, because, you know, you need eight hands up there. You're working in the camera, you're recording breaks, you're looking up things on your phone, you're trying to figure out where you are, and you look down to look at your equipment. And all of a sudden, you're like, I have no idea where I am. You get a little disoriented. But it was super fun. Matt Cundill  13:34 What do you mean by, work the camera? Carly Kincaid  13:36 So because it was a traffic helicopter, we did some hits for Global TV. And so that would be on like the five and the six o'clock, there was the top hour news as well. But they're like, you know, there's something going on, go look right here right now. And you'd scoot over there and get footage for them of whatever was happening. Matt Cundill  13:53 You didn't get airsick ever? Carly Kincaid  13:55 No. And that's the fortunate thing. Because I mean, it's so easy. You could have like, you look down, you look up, you're here, you're there. And you're just kind of- you have no idea what's going on for just that second while you re-organize yourself. But I was really good up there. So. Matt Cundill  14:10 I'm always worried it's gonna get windy, like don't have turbulence or something that might throw you off or make you scared or freak- freak you out would be the words? Carly Kincaid  14:17 I mean, every now and again, you'd get a bump or something like that. But you kind of knew if it was rough. So it wasn't like it came out of nowhere. And you- I mean, your pilot was like two feet in front of you. And so you talk to them the whole time. And if they knew something was, you know, hey, it's a little rough, they'll let you know. And if we needed to head back for whatever reason, we headed back, I mean, a variety of things. Temperature, any number of reasons you could have to go back, but you know, we were always in really good communication. So I was never worried. Matt Cundill  14:47 I would probably not feel too badly. If the pilot's good, I'm good. Carly Kincaid  14:50 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And you always say, I mean, if they feel that they shouldn't be up, or if I felt for whatever reason we shouldn't be up, then we land. Matt Cundill  15:00 What's the point where you stopped going into the radio station? Because the business has changed. And you can maybe voice track some stuff. Is it pre pandemic, is the pandemic? Where did you see it was going? When did you start to make some decisions about where and what kind of work you were going to do in radio, and maybe changing the relationship with it? Carly Kincaid  15:22 Well, I've been doing voice tracking for- or sorry, I've been doing like commercials and VO stuff for a long time. So I had the studio setup at home. So I mean, it was an easy flip when I got a call that said, hey, do you want to voice track some of our stations? And I mean, again, it was a no brainer. I mean, I loved the helicopter. I loved the people, I was working with, all that. But at the same time, it gave me the freedom to be home with my kids, and shuttle them here and there and everywhere. So I mean, you have to say that that's the perfect choice then. So you know, I got that call. And I said, yeah, sure. And so that was the beginning of my voice tracking career, I suppose. Matt Cundill  16:02 'Kay, so help me out. I did a lot of live work. Just live. Here we go. Maybe it wasn't all that prepped, maybe I wasn't exactly renowned for the most awesome show prep. But when it came to voice tracking, I told people, I said, well, I'll do it. And then I started to do it, and I go, this isn't very good. I'm not good at this. I don't feel it. And I just realized, I guess I'm just not good at voice tracking. So how do you change that? How would you construct the break in order to deliver it for something that was gonna be taking place tomorrow? Or even the next day after that? Carly Kincaid  16:35 I never know what day it is. That's- like, right now I have no idea what day it is. Because, you know, I'm voice tracking for the next day. So I really put myself into, okay, what day is it now? You know, and you look at the weather in those places, and you say, okay, it's cloudy for the next week, and kind of feel like you might be in that location. And then you know, all the breaks are sort of different, like, you know, some of them are topical for that location. Some of them are- you can throw something in about an artist, if- you know if it works, or, you know, there's so many different sorts of things that you can throw in. So, I mean, I just kind of feel like I'm talking to whoever is there, you know, just like I would in any other radio. You're just not getting the immediate feedback that you would if somebody said, no, you're terrible, they'd call you up and tell you that you're terrible. So you don't have that. Matt Cundill  17:24 Yeah, it took me to get into podcasts to really understand how to speak to people that weren't going to be listening in a live scenario. And I felt like I had to relearn everything. Carly Kincaid  17:35 It's different. It is. Yeah, there's no doubting that. But I think it's the evolution now there's so much of it going on. And technology is allowing it and times are changing. So you kind of have to just roll with it. Matt Cundill  17:48 Are times changing? I feel they've completely changed and there's no going back. Carly Kincaid  17:52 Well, there's- Yes, exactly, exactly. It's just different than it used to be, you had this big board and you know, the phones and you know, everything was just happening. And now it's kind of like, alright, I'm gonna go get a cup of tea, and I'm gonna come in, and I'm going to do some breaks. And I mean, it's- it's a lot more casual, a lot more- your work life balance is a lot nicer. Matt Cundill  18:12 So then back me up, outside of the radio talk that we've had, to the voice over part. When did you decide, I'm going to get a home studio, I'm going to do commercials and voice work from home? And what was the first voice work you did? Carly Kincaid  18:26 Okay, I had done little things here and there, like for many, many years, and then it was probably about 12- no, yeah, maybe about 12 years ago now, where I was like, You know what, I'm gonna get some stuff set up here. Because, you know, when you've got little kids, and if you can do something extra, or- you just never know how things are going to evolve. So I don't want to call it a plan B, because it's not a plan B. But you know, you want to have something else in your pocket that you know, you could do if you needed to. So I got a microphone, I got, you know, the equipment that I needed, figured it all out, learned some stuff, and I've been going ever since. And like, I've been doing a lot of different sorts of things, too. It's not even just all commercial. I've been doing like corporate narration and elearning. And I've done a bunch of the phone systems, which is kind of neat. Thank you for calling. So that's sort of stuff, I've done a bunch of the books, I mean, kind of a little bit of everything. Matt Cundill  19:17 You can't yell "bingo" until you've been on hold and you have to listen to yourself. Carly Kincaid  19:22 No, I have not had that. I mean, I've heard myself in many other places, but never on the phone. transcription Matt Cundill  19:29 A lot of people in radio think that they can do corporate narration, that they can do commercials and voice acting, because that's what it is. So what can you tell me is the difference between an announcer on the radio and reading spots for the producer down the hall, versus being in the studio, and voice acting? Tara Sands (Voiceover)  19:29 Transcription of the Sound Off Podcast is powered by the Podcast Super Friends, five podcast producers who get together to discuss podcasting. Sharpen your podcast and creation skills by following the show on the Sound Off Podcast's YouTube or Facebook page. The Sound Off Podcast supports podcasting 2.0, so feel free to send us a boost if you're listening on a newer podcast app. If you don't have a newer podcast app, you can get one at newpodcastapps.com. Carly Kincaid  20:23 Well, you are voice acting, you're not yourself. If it says you're a 25 year old female who's got, you know, one little kid at their feet when you're talking or whatever, I mean, then that's who you need to pretend to be, you need to kind of get into that character. Whereas if you're on the radio, it's more like, hey, this is me, this is what's going on in my world. This is what's happening, what I'm interested in. And I think people learn more about who you are as a person. Whereas if you're just- if you're doing a spot or a book or whatever, you really have to dig deep sometimes to not be you. Matt Cundill  20:56 Do you do any of the pay for play? Carly Kincaid  20:58 No, not- No. I've looked at all that stuff, and sometimes I feel like, oh, maybe I should try it. But I'm like, I am not paying like 500 bucks to potentially get an audition, like, no. So I mean, I've looked at them, but I've never got work off of them. Matt Cundill  21:17 Yeah. And I- of course, I use an inside term there, for those who are voiceover aficionados. And that's- you pay a company, like voices.com, voice123, pay 'em 500, a grand, whatever it is for the year, for the opportunity to audition. And I did it for a year. And I think- it worked out to about nine cents an audition. Carly Kincaid  21:41 Exactly. Matt Cundill  21:42 Yeah, but what I was getting compensated for my time and what I was doing, versus the number of jobs got picked up, your voice goes into a pile of possibly 100 other people, and you hope that they even listen to it, and that they choose you. And it's a- it's a pretty weird process. And in the end, it's- can feel lonely and debilitating, I think. Carly Kincaid  22:04 Yeah, I mean, just the competition, like, you know, you're going into this cattle call of- you don't even know how many people. And are you what they're looking for? Maybe yes, maybe no, maybe you just weren't fast enough in getting your audition in. So honestly, like, I have enough other stuff going on that I don't need that kind of stress in my life. Honestly, if somebody wants me for something, I mean, I've got an agent, and I've got, you know, a few other different organizations that I work with. And, you know, if they need me for something, they can ask me, and I shouldn't have to beg for it. Matt Cundill  22:36 Personal question. What's the most lucrative genre for the business? Is it corporate narration? Commercials? Radio or TV commercials? Carly Kincaid  22:44 Yeah, I mean, I don't even know for sure. There's so many variables, you know, how long are they? What's the turnaround time? Probably in the corporate narration world. But then you get- all of a sudden you get a big spot that's gonna run nationally, and then that plays- plays different. So. Matt Cundill  23:01 Have you had the one gig that takes the family to Disney yet? Carly Kincaid  23:03 No, I have not. We've been to Disney, but it has not been off a voiceover work. Let me tell you. Matt Cundill  23:10 So what goes into a studio? Because- and I'm asking these questions, because there's people who are making decisions about a home studio and you know, what kind of microphone for a podcast, but you've got this elaborate setup for those who are, you know, checking in the video there. So it looks like you got a Rode microphone, and you've got some- some egg cartons on the wall, pr sound proofing as it were. Carly Kincaid  23:31 Yes. Matt Cundill  23:31 Okay. So tell tell me about, like, those purchases. Carly Kincaid  23:34 Alright, so- well, ages and ages ago, I had a different microphone, and I just got this one for Christmas, which was awesome, little bit of an upgrade. And, you know, I've got a couple that, you know, I can go back and forth with if I need to. I've got a Rodecaster Pro which is dreamy. It- you know, it's got the sliders and the colors, and I can give myself applause if I want to. So that's always super fun. But I got that because it's nice to have that. But also, I can run phone calls through, which is, I mean, a huge thing if all of a sudden you're doing radio and they're like, hey, we're giving away tickets to... Can you call the winner? And even if it's voice tracked, you still have that capability to call people, interview people. And so that was the reason that I got the Rodecaster in the first place. But I just love it. It's- it makes me feel official. It's got all the buttons and things like that. I've got a full booth. It's like a four by four by seven feet tall or something, which I actually built myself because I'm a bit of a nerd. I researched on YouTube and all of those different places, and asked around and whatever, what do I need? How do I need to do this? And so I built these walls, and they can come in our- because I'm in the basement, they can come in our window. Everything fits through the window except for the ceiling, which I can get down the stairs. So if we ever decided to move, I can just take this puppy apart and take it along, which I think is awesome because you just- nothing is permanent in life, right? You get a different house and you need to take stuff with you. And when you build it in the basement, you have to be able to get it out. Yeah, seven years, I actually put the foam on styrofoam, so that I could peel them off the wall and take them with me. And of course, it's been here seven years, who would care anyway, at this point? That's how I started, with stuff on the wall behind me, but just kind of- I evolved, and I wanted something a little bit more, not even permanent, but just that I felt like this is my space. And I know that it's solid, and I don't have to worry about all the other stuff going on around. This is my voicing and my radio spot. So I come in here, and I feel like I'm actually at work, as opposed to sitting in my basement. Matt Cundill  25:45 You've got a nice camera too. And I should point out that a lot of people have figured this out. I have not figured this out yet. And that's how to turn your phone into a camera. Because your iPhone does now a really good job of capturing video. Carly Kincaid  25:58 Yeah, and well- and the reason I'm doing it that way is because in my booth, I have an external computer. So the actual computer's sitting outside the booth, I've run the wires in, but the monitor does not have a camera on it. So I just perch my iPhone on top and- and make it do the work. And it's genius. It really is. It knows, it talks to the computer, and it knows what I'm doing. Matt Cundill  26:20 So back to the Rodecaster. Did you get the Rodecaster because of radio more than anything, or..? Carly Kincaid  26:26 Yes. Matt Cundill  26:27 Yeah. Was that a pandemic purchase? Carly Kincaid  26:29 No, I've had it for a couple years- had nothing to do with the pandemic. I mean, I've had it for probably a couple years now. But it was so that I could run phone calls in. That was most important part of it. Yeah, and I just- I think it's a pretty cool sort of thing. And it's got features that I have no idea about, but I can turn on processing, and I can turn it off. So it depends what I'm doing. Like if I'm doing a commercial, I'll turn it off, and then run through my set of fixes after the fact. But if I'm doing radio, I can turn on things that give me a big booming voice. Or not. Matt Cundill  27:02 That's nice, some nice processing. Carly Kincaid  27:03 Yeah. Matt Cundill  27:04 So I built my studio in 2016, and this is what I had for the phone. So you just- you might remember that from some production studios. Carly Kincaid  27:11 Yeah. Yeah. I had to Steinberg that looked similar. Matt Cundill  27:15 Yeah. I guess- I mean, the Rodecaster, I can't remember when it came out. But it was just so useful. But I still have the phone going here. So same technology is still powering it, I'm just not quite at Rodecaster mode yet. But I'm sure I'll get there one day. Carly Kincaid  27:31 Oh, you'll get there. And then you'll be like, why did I wait? Matt Cundill  27:36 Because once it- if it works, it works. Carly Kincaid  27:38 Yes. Matt Cundill  27:39 Until it doesn't work, and then... Yeah. Carly Kincaid  27:41 And at this point, I've got- you know, my microphones are Rode and the Rodecaster is obviously a Rode, but everything talks to each other and it knows, and you know, in the Rodecaster, you say I've got this Rode microphone, and it's like, excellent. We're gonna process you like this. So I mean, for me, it's- it's easy doing it like that, because everything just kind of works together. Matt Cundill  27:59 You know, the Rode microphone, I think- I had one, the same one, I think, that you had when you started. I had an NT1. I also had an NT2. It got a little bit unwieldy, I think, for my voice because it was- it would pick up all the growly stuff. Carly Kincaid  28:15 Yeah. And that's the thing with microphones, like, I couldn't tell you to get one, and you couldn't tell me to get one, because they're also individual. Matt Cundill  28:23 Yeah, I like this Rode microphone I'm using right now. I meant it to be my travel mic, but it actually wound up being my studio mic in the end. Carly Kincaid  28:29 Well, that's the thing, everybody's got travel- travel sets.  What's your travel set?  My travel set is another thing that I built, it looks almost like- Well, it's a box and it's got like all the sides. And then it has a piece that goes over, but it's almost like a sleeping bag. I sewed it all together, and then it's got PVC pipes that kind of make a box, and- and then I can just put the computer in it, put the microphone in it. Put the thing behind me to- for reflection, and I've got it all in a suitcase. I want to get a different carrying case for it. Right now it's all in a suitcase. Matt Cundill  29:01 You are missing all the fun of hotel pillow forts. Carly Kincaid  29:05 I know, I know. And apparently cars are really good too, you- if you go in your car, the acoustics are fantastic. Matt Cundill  29:12 Yes. Carly Kincaid  29:13 But I haven't done that either. Matt Cundill  29:15 I just came back from a nice Spanish speaking country where I was dancing under a Latin moon. And there was- I had two microphones with me, one was Apogee 96k, just a small little one. But it picks up so much noise. It's really only good if you are in a car, but I'm not in a car. I'm in a hotel room. And so what I wound up using was a Zoom 5, Zoom H5 recorder, which was supposed to be for podcasting and picking up sound effects, but it does a wonderful job in the pillow fort. All that to say is I don't really have a very good travel setup, still, to this moment. Carly Kincaid  29:49 I don't travel a ton, so I'm not too concerned about it. But one day when I get to be rich and famous and get to travel all over the world, I'll get something better. Matt Cundill  29:57 Well that's too bad you don't, because if you really really want to book voice work in North America, you have to book vacation. And then- and then all of it will come piling in, and you'll have to do it all before your trip. Carly Kincaid  30:10 I know, I'm worried about even weekends. It's like, okay, I got stuff to do. I can't go anywhere this weekend. Matt Cundill  30:14 AI. Does it worry you? Carly Kincaid  30:16 A little bit. When you hear of radio stations that are doing AI announcers, things like that. That's, I think, what worries me more than anything else, like you hear about, you know, they're doing spots, or they're reading books and- and stuff like that. And I think, you know, people can tell the difference, but when, you know, somebody says, I'm going to take this job from you and give it to a computer, like an actual real job? I don't like that. Matt Cundill  30:42 Let me ask you about, like, the AI disc jockey thing. Do you think radio stations should disclose that the person on the air is an AI creation? Carly Kincaid  30:52 Well, at this point, I mean, I don't know. I think you can kind of tell, but it's gonna get better and better. And then you may not be able to tell. Yeah, I mean, I- it's- it's a tough one, because I think it's dishonest. But if people don't care, then do they care, right? But I wouldn't want to listen to it. That's the thing. If I heard it, I'd be like, I'm out. You know, I can get my music somewhere else. I'm here to hear what's- what else is happening. And if you're giving it to me on a computer, that's not for me. Matt Cundill  31:19 Do you do audiobooks? Carly Kincaid  31:21 Yeah, I've done- I think I've done 17 now? 16, 17? Something like that. They're fun. They're a lot of work. Matt Cundill  31:28 So you have to read the book before you record the book? Carly Kincaid  31:31 Ideally. Matt Cundill  31:33 I mean, that's a lot of time, right? So it should be a lot of money. Carly Kincaid  31:36 No, no, it's not a lot of money at all. But it's an experience and it's fun. And you learn stuff, and you become a pro at editing. Because you're editing the stuff yourself. I mean, unless you ship it off to somebody. But when you're hired as the narrator, you need to send them clean audio. And so yeah, you get pretty good at, you know, taking out the clicks, taking- lowering the breaths. Matt Cundill  32:01 What's your tool for editing? Carly Kincaid  32:04 Adobe Audition. Matt Cundill  32:05 Nice. Carly Kincaid  32:06 Yeah, I started off with Audacity. And then I needed more from it than it could give me. Like, as far as, you know, the clicks and all of- all of the extras. And I'm like, I need to go to Audition. It's- it's what's happening. It's the best. And yeah, I wouldn't turn back. Matt Cundill  32:23 Any plugins? Carly Kincaid  32:25 Well, I think I have some. Uncle Roy hooked me up. Matt Cundill  32:29 Oh, okay. Yeah, for sure. Carly Kincaid  32:31 He does all my stuff when I have problems. It's like, I got a new computer. I'm like, Uncle Roy, you've got to help me. I don't know what to do. Matt Cundill  32:38 You've been to a few voiceover conferences, yes? Carly Kincaid  32:41 No, only online. That was one online that I did during the pandemic. And so I was able to do that. But I haven't traveled. I want to go to Atlanta. I want to go to, you know, all of the big ones. Matt Cundill  32:51 Was that VO North you went to? Carly Kincaid  32:52 Yeah. Matt Cundill  32:53 I did a few panels there. Carly Kincaid  32:55 Yeah. Yeah, it was cool. Matt Cundill  32:57 It was- I mean, for what we could, but you know, here I was sitting exactly where I am now, and trying to moderate panels from here. And I think I did four of them. It was wild. Carly Kincaid  33:06 Oh, yeah. I mean, that was my first experience with the- you know, the convention aspect of it. But I would love to go and actually meet more people and learn more things, and... One day. Matt Cundill  33:18 I mean, look at it this way, you could, you know, go to VO Atlanta, which I believe is coming up in March. And then the day before, you can plan for all the voice work, because you're going to be traveling, right? Carly Kincaid  33:29 That's right. And then I can work out of a pillow fort. Matt Cundill  33:32 That's right, the pillow fort. I often wonder what housekeeping thinks of when they see a pillow fort randomly set up by an adult. Carly Kincaid  33:39 Right? I saw, like online, somebody had taken a mattress and leaned it up against the wall. Like, what are these people doing in there? Meanwhile, it's like, some national spot that, you know, they hear every day and they had no idea. Matt Cundill  33:54 Give a shout out to the station that you're imaging right now. Carly Kincaid  33:57 I'm doing voice tracking strictly. Matt Cundill  33:59 I might cut this out of the video, but give a shout out to the stations where we can hear you doing your show. Carly Kincaid  34:05 Country 93 one in Timmins. I've got Today FM in Grand Prairie. I've got 98 CKHD and Assiniboia, I've got 105.1 The River in Niagara. I've got 102.7 Lake FM in Kingston. And I've got 98.1 Today FM in Lethbridge. And as of this weekend, I'm doing weekends on The Breeze, Edmonton. Matt Cundill  34:26 Are those cue cards that you put in front of you to remind you what station you are- you're on? Carly Kincaid  34:32 But it's got phone numbers and stuff too. It's not just- it's got everything on it so that I kind of can, you know, zone in on where am I? What am I doing? Who am I talking to? Because otherwise it's like, you know, I forget what my own name is sometimes. Matt Cundill  34:45 Do you use the same name on all the stations? Carly Kincaid  34:48 Yes. Matt Cundill  34:48 Okay. Carly Kincaid  34:49 But here's a funny story. So when I first went to Victoria, they said, okay, well we've got two new announcers coming. We're going to give you different names, and whoever gets here first is going to be this name. Whoever gets here second is going to be this name. So I think I arrived second, and I became Kaylee Summers, which I don't think is a very professional sounding name, unless you're in a certain industry. It sounds a little questionable. And not to mention that Kaylee and Carly were very close. So if somebody hollers, you're like what? Who? So that lasted for about a year. Matt Cundill  35:23 And when you said the name, I actually went there, so yeah, I'll admit it. Carly Kincaid  35:28 Exactly. Yeah. And I had to be that for a year on the radio. No, no, I'm a real, normal human being. Matt Cundill  35:38 Carly, thanks so much for being on the podcast and sharing your secrets and stories. Oh, Carly Kincaid  35:43 Oh, thank you for having me. This has been super fun. Tara Sands (Voiceover)  35:45 The Sound Off Podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski. Edited by Chloe Emond-Lane. Social media by Aidan Glassey. Another great creation from the Soundoff Media Company. There's always more at soundoffpodcast.com.

I am crossing a name off every radio aficionado's interview bucket list: Erin Davis. Erin hosted radio in Toronto for more than 30 years, from the 80's all the way to 2016. Most of that time was spent at the venerable CHFI. There's a lot to talk about when it comes to Erin's career, and she's happy to share. Stories of personal and career growth, and how she developed her hosting skills. The mistakes she made along the way. The co-hosts she had the best and worst chemistry with, what she found so special about radio, the decline she's seen since the turn of the century, and of course, the devastating change that prompted her to leave radio behind. Since 2016, Erin has expanded her resume in a number of ways. Most notable, though, are her book Mourning Has Broken, and her two podcasts- Drift with Erin Davis and the G and F Podcast. G and F is co-hosted by Erin and her longtime friend and fellow voice talent, Lisa Brandt. Drift, on the other hand, is a show meant to help you drift off peacefully to sleep. To get in touch with Erin, learn more about her, or read her weekly blog posts, check out her website here. It feels like yesterday that we had Valerie Geller on the show to talk about radio podcast and performance. I have found myself quoting her often in the last few days with the influx of people looking to start new podcasts. Erin and I spoke extensively about Valerie Geller's book Beyond Powerful Radio which you can find here. in paper format and on Audible. TRANSCRIPTION Tara Sands (Voiceover)  00:02 The Sound Off Podcast. The show about podcast and broadcast starts now. Matt Cundill  00:13 If you have a podcast that involves broadcast, Erin Davis would be a bucket list interview, no matter where you are on the planet. She hosted and co hosted radio in Toronto from the 80's through to 2016, when her life took a dramatic turn. Erin has added author and podcaster to her media CV to go alongside television and radio. Erin Davis joins me from her home in North Saanich, British Columbia. I don't know why I've never met you. It was probably too many years out West, and cheap budgets from Gary Slade, who wouldn't permit me to go to Canadian Music Week to go and, you know, meet superstars like you. Erin Davis  00:48 Oh, thank you. He made people pay for photocopies. So I mean, yeah, you're absolutely right. And that was a big change when I moved over from Rogers for that one year, from '03 to '04. It's like, you guys have no swag, we've moved to number one, and you got nothing to give out that has our callsign on it. It's just- egh. Coming from the big blue machine, you know, Rogers and CHFI, and then saying, come on. Let's- let's do this. But yeah. Matt Cundill  01:16 I do my research. This is my show prep, it looks exactly the same way that I used to do show prep. Erin Davis  01:22 I love it. There's something so- well, literally cerebral about putting your pen in your hand and writing it down. It just commits it to the brain so much better, I think. Matt Cundill  01:31 What made you decide to go to Loyalist? Erin Davis  01:34 Proximity, and just sheer luck. I was in grade 13. Yes, we had extra grades there. I don't know if it helped. But I was in April of grade 13. Not an exceptional student. I did well in theater and in English and French, but I didn't know what I wanted to do. So I signed up- remember these career days people- schools used to have? You go and listen to a bunch of people talk. And I got there, and the two guys I had signed up to listen to were already full. So I ended up hearing this Brian Olny guy from Loyalist College, talk about radio. And I was sitting in that class, and it was one of three times in my life. I felt like I was hit by lightning. Right away, I thought this- this is great. I didn't know I could do this. You know, women on the radio at that time in 1980, Matt, were doing things like recipes or the stork report, where they talked about what babies had been born and stuff, you know, CJBQ in Belleville. And all of a sudden I knew. So I contacted the college and they said oh, we're full up. And then I did a demo, and they found a spot. So I was on the air being paid by November of that year, like two months later. So it was like, off I went. Matt Cundill  02:48 And you did the two years at Loyalist, and then you got your first taste of radio shortly after? I want to say CIGL. Erin Davis  02:55 Well, it was during. Because in November, like two months after starting the course, I was hired at CIGL. It was a station for my parents and it was, you know, like, orchestra versions of songs that, you know, were already 30 years old. Muzak, basically. And so it was running reel to reel tapes with an LP cut at the end of each quarter, the Kala music system, it was called, out of Kalamazoo, Michigan. So I'm not technically minded. So there were times that that reel got put on backwards at six in the morning when I wasn't awake. But yeah, I was doing weekends the first year, and then the second year, I went college in the morning, CIGL from two till eight in the afternoon, evening, and a few evenings I would run across the street to the French restaurant and play piano to make $17 an hour in 1982, which was amazing money for a kid. I wasn't old enough to drink, but that didn't stop me, because I was 17 when I started college. So it was a- it was a very busy time. But getting my big step was into radio in Ottawa at CFRA. And the Christmas of 1981, I had a week off, so I volunteered to go and work there. And of course, you know, every radio station at Christmas is dying for warm bodies to come and do anything. So I just jumped in, got my feet wet. And then when I graduated four months later, they had a job for me. Matt Cundill  04:23 Wow. So I didn't know about the CFRA part. Erin Davis  04:25 Yes. Matt Cundill  04:26 And that's one of the stations of my youth. Erin Davis  04:28 You're kidding. Listening or working? Matt Cundill  04:30 Listening. I was 11 years old, and people like Dave 50,000 Watts and- Erin Davis  04:35 Oh yeah. Ken "The General" Grant? Matt Cundill  04:37 Who just recently passed away, that's- forward ho with the marching bands every morning. What a place to start. Erin Davis  04:44 It was, and you know what? I got spoiled. I was only there six months before CKLW wined and dined me to go to Windsor, but I was there for six months and I thought, number one station, huge market. This is fun. I think I'll do this the rest of my life, not knowing that number one station is like a kiss from the gods and it doesn't happen very often. Matt Cundill  05:07 And both stations are owned by CHUM, I believe. Correct? Erin Davis  05:11 It wasn't then. CFRA wasn't part of CHUM then. CFGO in Ottawa was at that time, of course you've listened to them. The AM rocker. But no, I forget who they were owned by. But it was, I think local. I never worked for CHUM. Matt Cundill  05:28 I don't know whether or not to say that's good or bad. Erin Davis  05:30 I wished. Man, when I was doing all news in Toronto, eventually, I would have given my right arm to go to CHUM. But of course, they were just starting up their sort of Roger and Marilyn kind of era then. And so I was always pestering Gary Slate, and almost got my foot in a few times, but never did. So- I'm really jumping ahead here, because I was four years, three and a half years at CKO after CKLW, The Big Eight, decided to go music of your ex-wife and just kind of give up on rock. And then they closed the doors. They shuttered their Southfield, Michigan offices, they shut down most of the staff on CKLW. So I felt okay, great. Take the 401, go to Toronto, stay with your sister, find a job. And I did, at the All News Network, CKO. Matt Cundill  06:20 Which we're going to have to explain to everybody. Because CKO was a news network across the country. That's a signal that I could pick up out of Ottawa, but they also had stations in Vancouver and elsewhere. So why'd it fail? Erin Davis  06:36 Because it didn't have the money. They were owned by Agra Industries, I think it was, famous for potato chips or something. I don't know. But- and we didn't have CBC money. We just didn't have the resources. People at CKO- and I say this with the greatest respect, and for some disdain, because they were either on their way up or on their way down. And there was just a ton of misogyny and pettiness and that sort of thing. But it was the place where I was given the co-host- Morning Show co-host position. And there was like- it was a wheel of co-hosts all the time there. They'll try this guy, they'll try that guy, and they all came in thinking, okay, I'm gonna save the show, little lady, sit back, I'll do all the interviews. And it was just- it was a real learning experience. But Matt, the best thing I got out of it was a husband I'm still with- 1986, yeah, you do the math. I don't know. 37 years later? So it worked out for the best for us. Matt Cundill  07:36 Was that a national show, or was it local? Erin Davis  07:39 Local, it was local Toronto. You got to listen to talk. You gotta listen to talk. CKO! They had jingles. But they- they didn't listen. Matt Cundill  07:50 News, though, has never been anything that companies could monetize. It's never been profitable. Erin Davis  07:57 They did talk shows. Yhey had like John Gilbert, who was a real somebody on CHUM back in the day. And they had a few other syndicated shows across the country. So yeah, they did- they did national shows. But yeah, they just- they couldn't monetize. And there was some really good talent there too. I- you know, you talked about Taylor Parnaby, who ran NewsRadio I think, and then came to CKO and then ended up his career with Standard/Slate and all of that at CFRB. He was exceptional. And there were a few other people. Bob Holliday, who also came from- I want to say CHUM, it might have been CFTR. But he had a storied career as well. There were people who had real talent and- and- and a lot of experience, and I learned so much from them, but I didn't get to work closely enough with them to really kind of take it all in, but it was Hat Parnaby who hired me there. Matt Cundill  08:55 I remember the demise of the station because somebody had finished their newscast, and then announced, "And the CKO network will cease to exist as of now." It was- Erin Davis  09:03 Wow. Matt Cundill  09:04 And then the static hit the air, and I was like, did that really happen? Erin Davis  09:07 Well, we were 99.1 on the dial, which of course now is CBC. And I remember somebody telling me- I had left at this time, I left- Rob and I both left a year earlier. I got a phone call in August of 1988, the same year Rob and I married, so it was a big year for us, and I got a phone call from CFRB to come and do news on the Wally Crowder show, and CHFI to come and do news on the Don Daynard show. And so I had this decision to make. They were both going to pay exactly $40,000. And you know what, I later learned that Slate had a rule: no woman wants to be paid more than $40,000, and Maureen Holloway broke that ceiling. But I had to decide, which one did I want? Did I want to go to the station where my dad would be really thrilled, or go to a station where I'd have fun? And so I chose CHFI. And I'm really glad that I did. But you're right. A year later the plug got pulled. Somebody messaged me and said, I had sent my car away for servicing, and when I got it back, it was just this static and I thought, what did they do to the radio stations? There were people who had no idea. Matt Cundill  10:19 Tell me about the late 80s, working with Don, what was your role on the show? Was it just news, or did it- did it morph into something over time? Erin Davis  10:28 Oh, it totally morphed. For the first three years, I guess, I along with Ben Steinfeld, who had come from CFTR- we sat in the newsroom together smoking away. I can't even believe that there were ashtrays next to our IBM Selectrics, but there were. And doing- writing news, he did the top hours, I went in and did the bottom hours, but I would stick around to- to do a bit or two with Daynard. And eventually, it got to the point where it was really clicking. And what's funny is when I started there, we were the station's demographic. I was 25, he was 54. So we covered it all, right? And some of the stuff he talked about, I had no idea. I grew up spending a lot of time with my grandparents. So I knew a lot of stuff about the 30s and the 40s and that, but he was in a whole different realm. He was in his world of serial dramas in the theaters on the weekends, and cowboy movies, and all of these things. And of course, oldies. Don was steeped in oldies, that was really his brand, but I brought in the younger. The moms, the- the- the females, basically, because he didn't really care about that side of the audience. And so we just we just gelled. And then eventually I just kind of asked him one day, is it okay if I have co-host printed on my business card? And he was in a good mood that day, and he said, yes, sure. I don't care. So I went ahead and did it. And then in 1991, when we were expecting our baby, my husband suggested, let's do it from home. He had come from a network where Charles Templeton and Pierre Burton had done their things on CKEY from home every morning, their commentary, and he knew this could be done. So I did my part of the show from home for three months. And some people didn't know that I wasn't in the studio, the quality was just that good. And then- but then they thought, well, she can't be doing the news from home, that's stupid. So I moved out of news then, they brought somebody else in, and away we went. Matt Cundill  12:34 What was the technology? Erin Davis  12:36 Bell lines, buried under the front lawn. And Lauren came three weeks early, so they hadn't had the lines put in yet. And I had said to John Hennen, the news director at the time, we got to do this. Let's get this going. Come on, let's go. But you know, budgets and giving money to Bell was just, argh, they couldn't stand it. But that was the technology, Matt. And now of course, anybody can do shows from anywhere. I'm in a converted wine room in our house. So the alcohol that would have cost me my career is now giving it back to me here in a whole different form. Yeah, it's amazing the technology, huh? Matt Cundill  13:14 I can't believe how far we've come. Erin Davis  13:16 Yeah. Matt Cundill  13:16 I mean, those ISDN lines that you're talking about were the gold standard for sound for so long. And for a brief time, we had some other computer type stuff. And then eventually, the internet has caught up with everything else. And oh, look, it's now Wi Fi. Erin Davis  13:32 Yeah, it's amazing. Matt Cundill  13:33 What did you learn from Don as a communicator? Because Don Daynard was to- you know, I- it was just sort of a given that that's number one, and established, but I didn't get to listen to him. So what did he have as a communicator that you picked up on? Erin Davis  13:52 He had such a gift. It was incredible, because the things I learned from him was (a) not to take myself so damn seriously. And I always thought as a news person- and I took my news very seriously too. But I took my sports more seriously, I would write that sports cast first because I wasn't going to be that girl on the radio who made the mistakes. I did, still. But I always wrote the sports first. I learned from him not to take myself so seriously, to laugh more, to let yourself just get lost in- in the moment of the absolute absurdity. And he was so good at that and people just loved when he went off the rails and was wheezing that he was laughing so hard. And I never did that. I couldn't do that. I didn't do it until Cooper, Mike Cooper years later, but I was always so, you know, stick up my butt, because I felt like I was carrying all of femininity on my shoulders. And I'll give you an example. He used to do this bit with Jean Taylor, who came from years on City TV. And it was called Taylor's Trivia, and Jean would ask Don a question, and Don would come up with his answer and it would usually be absurd and wrong. And it'd be very funny. It was a funny bit. 7:20 every morning, benchmarks were everything then. And when Don was a bit away, eventually I earned the- the right, the privilege, to do Taylor's Trivia. And the program director at the time, himself just a real misogynist as well, he said listen, wanted to play along more with Taylor? Why don't you- why don't you get some of them wrong? And I said, I can't, I can't do that. I couldn't play the dumb co-host. And I just couldn't, but Don sort of taught me it was okay to play a role, to be the goof. And to let people kind of take the piss, as you will, as the Brits say, to have fun at your expense. And and just kind of go with it. Now he was the most real person I'd ever experienced on the radio. When Don wasn't in a good mood, everybody in the room knew it. And quite often the listeners did too. So my job, and I later found out he would call me Miss Perky Pants, or Perky Panties, I think it was, was to lighten it up and to go, "Oh, Don..." and then kind of change directions. And of course, he hated that. But that was my job, was to keep listeners and to make them not turn away from the cranky guy. Because as endearing as it was, he got unhappier as years went on. And either it was, you know, me having this constantly perky presence, or, you know, losing his son as he did, and came out publicly about it. And you know, just- you know, divorces and all of the crap that life threw at him. And I would come in some mornings, and he would just have his face buried in the newspaper and, you know, our newscaster at the time, my dear friend and podcast partner now Lisa Brandt would say, I just knew that was a time not to talk to Don. So other people saw it too. Thank God, it wasn't just me. Matt Cundill  16:57 Who else in the Toronto market could you hear on the radio? Females who are also, you know, being elevated or elevating themselves and having to work through the system that you can hear, and going good, there's more females coming on air? Erin Davis  17:10 I never really got a chance to listen to people like Sheila Rogers, she was doing the co-host thing at the same time I was, and of course, Marilyn Denis. I only ever heard her once or twice. And the one time I heard her- and I heard her talk to a listener on the phone and say okay, hon, so blah, blah, blah. And I went, wait a second. She just talked to that caller like they were her friend. You can do that. And so it opened my eyes that, you know, again, another thing broken down, like stop with the walls, stop trying to be this person and just be yourself. And that- just that one break that I heard Marilyn do taught me that. So I learned more from the wisdom of Valerie Geller, who is still a tremendous- what's the word- consultant, I- consultant has such a dirty, c-word kind of a- an air to it. But in Valerie's case, she was that other time- I talked about three. But another time that I was hit by lightning was the first time I heard Valerie Geller talk. So she taught me how to just be myself, and allow myself to be human. And you know, that- that's a hard thing, especially now when people come at you so hard if you make a mistake while you're being human. And it happens, because it's part of the being human mess. Matt Cundill  18:35 I'm so glad you mentioned her, because she has referenced you on a number of occasions, I think in the podcasts that- that I did with her. And right now I'm just going to put you to the test. What are her three big rules? Erin Davis  18:47 Never be boring is the last one, tell the truth... Matt Cundill  18:51 Make it matter. Erin Davis  18:52 Make it matter. And although those three rules didn't come to the top of my mind, what she says comes to me all the time, always, what's in it for the listener, but to turn it around and not to say I was in the supermarket, or I was in the store today, and this woman, you know, sneezed all over me. What you do is you say, has this ever happened to you? Or what would you have done? And right away you're pulling in the listener because they're going, oh, I should think about this, right? It's not just I, me, this is what happened to me, and let's go to a commercial. She is so good. God, she's good. When was the first time you met her? They brought her in, in I think about 1994 or five, I want to say. Don and I ended up our time together in '99. So we were together for 11 years. And it was in the middle of that. And, you know, Don was one of these guys, you know, sitting back arms folded. You can't teach me anything, lady, but I was just soaking it all in, because she saw me, she heard me, she got me, and it was the first time anyone in my career had ever gotten me or saw what I could do, or the potential, and boy oh boy, is that ever an amazing feeling if you ever get that. It's just- what was your dealing with her, Matt? Did you have her in a consultant form as well? Matt Cundill  20:14 Actually, Standard flew her in and spoke with a number of us. So I got to fly to Toronto. And it was, I think, as talent at the time, and discuss some breaks with her that I was doing. And I brought 'em on cassette. And she'd already listened to the show anyway. And I think she wanted me to land on the answer in the end about why a certain break didn't work. And I think she had to looked me square in the eyes and ask, were you boring? And it wasn't just the break was boring, it's just that, could you have made it a little bit more? And were you boring in this particular instance? And I thought, yeah, maybe I could have done it better, and what's in it for the listener, and reshaped it. And we just reshaped the break into something that was very, very mediocre, into something that popped. Snd how simple it was just to use the word you to make it about the listener. To not, you know, bring it- make it a little bit about myself, and to really include the listener. And by just changing a few words, we took something from mediocre and bland to great. Erin Davis  21:16 She is so gifted, and how lucky we've been. And this is a woman now who's schooling people in podcasting, because being a good communicator, it doesn't matter whether you're making announcements somewhere, or you know, you're on the air, or you're doing a podcast, it's all that connection that people I think will always crave. And this is part of what radio has just thrown away by doing syndicated morning shows, and you know, all of this putting television people on radio, and people who don't get that one to one, like a hey, everybody, or good morning, everybody, or how are you? How are you all doing? No, no, no. That was the one thing, right, Matt? It's one person. And especially in the morning, they're sitting there, they're having a coffee, they're waking up looking at somebody they can't stand, or going to a job that they abhor. And they're- they're literally naked coming out of the shower. They're thinking, how do I get through this day? You know, and that's why make it matter, is my world safe? You know, that's one of her things, too, is let people know it's going to be okay. And if it's not okay, it will be. And here's how you do it. So it's just the wrapping yourself around that listener and caring. And you can fake it. But I've been so lucky. I've never had to fake it. I really do care. And to this day- Well, you've seen the following that I still have, and it's not so much a following as a mutual connection, because I feel for them as well. Matt Cundill  22:43 I had the one break with Valerie, and then I just got the book, and then that finished out the rest for me. Because everything else- everything else was in the book, and it was perfect. I think back to your time in the early 90's, and you're writing the sports first thing in the morning, because you've got to make that matter, and you've got to get it right, and you've got to tell the truth. Early 90's sports in Toronto. Well, oh my goodness, the Blue Jays. The Toronto Maple Leafs nearly got to the Stanley Cup final in '93. I can tell you're a Leafs fan because you still speak of that fondly. Erin Davis  23:16 Gilmour! Matt Cundill  23:16 Well, I will remind you the Montreal Canadiens won the cup that year. Erin Davis  23:20 Oh, probably. Paul de Courcey was in our newsroom and he was an avid Habs fan. So yeah, yeah, yeah. Matt Cundill  23:27 But some of those parts we talked about, they feel gone. And especially, you know, getting it right. Well, certainly telling the truth. You know, in some capacities of news that's- that can be gone on talk shows. And for some reason we've gotten away from the listener in radio. How did that happen? I think you might have already touched on it by mentioning the syndicated shows. Erin Davis  23:50 Oh, yeah. Well, you know- and I used to hear about this even back then, oh, it's the bean counters, the bean counters. And, you know, I never really quite understood that. But I understand it when you've got communication conglomerates, who couldn't give a flying fadoo- tribute there to Bob McCowan, dear Bob, a friend of ours, and that was his thing, fadoo- but they couldn't care less about the quality of what was going out on the air. I mean, Rogers had it in the DNA. Ted Rogers was broadcasting long before television or communications or anything like that. But yeah, radio was his thing. And you know, Edward now is like, okay, how are we gonna get CHFI back to number one? Well, ask somebody who knows, for starters, instead of bringing all of these, you know, people coming in, who are just- they're making decisions that are just so ridiculous. And it came down to how much is this person costing? How can we do it more cheaply? And of course, they do have fewer advertisers, but I'm thinking, and follow me here and tell me where my logic is wrong. If they had treated the medium with the respect that it deserved, and moved along with the times, which I think stations like KISS are doing, doing their podcast for their morning show and that sort of thing. But if they had done that, then they wouldn't be dying. And I think it's a slow suicide. They're doing it. We saw it happen in the States where one station- or one company took over all these stations, and it's just syndicated garbage basically. So we can all hear Ryan Seacrest say good morning, everybody. And not give a damn what is happening in your town today, where a train derailed or anything like that. I could go off forever on this. It's so sad because I love radio with every, every fiber of my being. Matt Cundill  25:41 Yeah, you had it right. It's Ryan Seacrest saying good morning, everybody, followed by what Kim Kardashian did yesterday. Erin Davis  25:48 Oh. gags Sorry. Sorry. There's room for that. And now there's platforms for that. Go get your fill on TikTok and stuff. But make radio real and relevant and connected again, if it's not too late. Matt Cundill  26:03 What was the transition after Don? After he retired in '99? Erin Davis  26:07 Eeeeh. It should have worked. It should have worked. Bob Magee came from mornings at 1050 CHUM. Handsome. Oh, he was beautiful. He was a lovely man. Bob always did the right thing. If there was a birthday or whatever, there were flowers. He was the most gracious gentleman to me. He had a very public breakup with Jeanne Beker. And her book came out while he and I were together. And he was a good, good person. But he was afraid. He was so nervous, he would shake when he was on the air. So he didn't have that confidence to helm a morning show, and coming in after Daynard, nobody could fill those cowboy boots. And you know, I am sure I was at fault. But we did not have the magic, the chemistry, that je ne sais quoi. And because I didn't have that- that net, knowing that if I left, was it going to be okay? And he didn't have that with me either. We were both, I think, afraid. Management didn't know what to do. Our program director didn't know what to do to make the show better, because he'd never had to. Daynard wouldn't listen to anybody. He resented bosses of all kinds, which was to me something else I learned. It was just like, I was totally raised on authoritarian figures. My father was an officer in the Air Force, yada, yada yada. And so Don didn't give a shit, basically, if I can use that. So management didn't know what to do to help the show. So eventually, you know, we had solid ratings, but they weren't Daynard and Davis ratings. And so in 2003, they looked down the hall to the morning show there, that they had spent literally a million dollars promoting recently, Mad Dog and Billy, and it wasn't moving their needle and they thought, well- and this is a literal turn of phrase used by one of the managers at CHFI- Why don't we euthanize CHFI? Euthanize. He thought, I don't know, if he was doing the turn of phrase on purpose, but y-o-u-t-h youth. And so that's when Bob and I- Bob moved to afternoons. I had in my contract, I only did mornings. And so I was off on the beach for a little bit. And they brought in Mad Dog and Billy. Matt Cundill  28:25 Shout out to Julie Adam, by the way, who's been on this show. Erin Davis  28:27 Yes. I love Julie. Matt Cundill  28:30 By the way, she loves you too. But she's taken responsibility for being part of that move. A number of times, she just says yeah, hey, it's okay to make mistakes, I made one once. And she kind of makes reference to being a part of a team that made this decision. Erin Davis  28:42 Yeah, it wasn't all her. There were a lot of desks had to sign off on that. But she shouldered the responsibility. And one of the things, Matt, when I was told on that June day, June 14 2003, but I don't remember that I wasn't coming in on Monday, is that I've really regretted that I wasn't going to work with Julie Adam, because she believed in her people. And imagine being able to work for a woman, too, who had such vision. And just was all in, such passion for radio. It was- it was, I thought, a real loss, but I got to. So yay. Matt Cundill  29:17 And that's why I didn't meet you, because in 2003 I did go to Canadian Music Week, but you were on the beach. Erin Davis  29:23 Yes, I was. Which is such a nice way of saying drinking your face off in grief. But it's true. You're called on the beach and I had a year that I was told, you know, you're not to go on the Toronto airwaves, and we'll pay you. But I was able to- you know, there were a couple of jobs that came up just out of the blue, a TV show on the W Network live. Unfortunately it debuted the same day, same time slot, as another host with the initials E.D., Ellen DeGeneres. I think she did okay. I didn't. And so that was that and then I got to be in Ross Petty's panto of Cinderella, and I got to play the fairy godmother. And that just- ahh. It was- it was amazing. So that's what I did in my year off. Matt Cundill  30:08 The show on W, was it- was W based out of Winnipeg at that point? Erin Davis  30:11 It wasn't, it was right in Toronto, down at the Corus- no, Corus wasn't down at Harbourfront at that time. It was near the bread factory somewhere. My geography has never been good. Lived in Toronto 30 years, Matt, and it might as well have been three. So yeah, it was kind of in the west end of Toronto. Matt Cundill  30:30 And did the noncompete just expire, and then you got to go back to radio? Erin Davis  30:33 It expired at the time that EZ Rock, which was CJEZ where I had also worked after I left CKO way back when, they had an opening in the morning show because Mike's co-host was on maternity leave. So I went in to fill in with Mike, and it was like, after the first day, oh, oh, this isn't good. This is amazing. The chemistry, holy crap. I had never worked with anybody like Cooper. He was like nobody I'd ever experienced. And I had the chance to work with him, because when Bob McGee was brought in, Cooper could have been hired in '99 as my co host at FI. And my first thought was, no way. No way. I had worked with enough guys who had amazing voices, and absolutely nothing up here, in my CKO days. So I thought, no, I'm not going to work with Cooper. But Holy Hannah did it ever. I needed, it turns out, kind of a real man's man, to- That's such an outdated and sexist phrase. But you know what I mean, I needed a guy who was steeped in testosterone, so that I didn't look like the man in the couple. I needed somebody to go up against, and come back and go holy, what was that? Matt Cundill  31:50 To support your role. Erin Davis  31:51 Yes, exactly. Matt Cundill  31:53 The way people know you and the way you're comfortable being a broadcaster. Erin Davis  31:58 Right, a broad caster, you know what I mean? And it was like Valerie Geller, there was always that- are you a pitcher or a catcher? I think she had a better turn of phrase for that. But my role always changed. I was always kind of the catcher and then with Cooper, I became the pitcher. And every day, every break, it would change. And it was so refreshing to be like Shohei Otani. What are you going to do today? Where are you going to- Where are you going to, you know, kind of shine? Is it going to be at the plate or is going to be- you know, so it was just a magical dance. Matt Cundill  32:33 How good is that? Because I look back at the one time I had a co-host, I did one show. My favorite show I ever did was the pitcher and the catcher, you could change roles and just going into the role, you can say, I pitch, you catch, or you catch, I pitch. Honestly, it's the best. Erin Davis  32:48 It is. Now there are some people who are most comfortable in their roles and some people who should never be out of their roles. But if you've got that ability to not just catch it, but to then pitch it back. You know, almost like a volley in tennis. Where are you going to hit it? Sometimes you're going to hit the net, but sometimes it's going to be something they- they hit back even better. Oh my god, Matt. It's just- it's magic. And it is that undefinable chemistry that- that you cannot look at paper and go, yeah, okay, this is gonna work. Let's do this. You know? It just doesn't work. Tara Sands (Voiceover)  33:24 Transcription of the Sound Off Podcast is powered by the You May Also Like podcast, the show about people, places and things. Follow the show on your favorite podcast app, or at YouMayAlsoLike.net. The Sound Off Podcast supports podcasting 2.0, so feel free to send us a boost if you're listening on a newer podcast app. If you don't have a newer podcast app, you can get one at newpodcastapps.com was Matt Cundill  33:53 Was EZ Rock owned by Standard? Erin Davis  33:55 Yep. Matt Cundill  33:56 So Gary Slate finally got ya. Erin Davis  33:57 He didn't. He got me, as in he hired me, but I don't know how many times I would go in and say look, when Cooper's co-host comes back, put me in with Wallashin. I can do this again. Meaning that, you know, the audience from CHFI moved like a hive of- a swarm of bees over to EZ Rock and took it to number one. And then I knew okay, my job here isn't going to be forever. Christine's gonna come back. I understand that. But let me move over to Wallashin, because we had some chemistry. Just a few times we met, I thought, I can do it with this guy. But Slate couldn't see past his nose. And he really resented that my husband helped me in my negotiating. Because I know my strengths, and standing up for myself is not one of them. It never will be. And Rob has been my agent, producer- not producer now, I produce all my own podcasts. But you know, he's been the man who was always the catcher, the bass player, the goalie. That's always been Rob's role, to make me show up and shine. And it's how we have worked, and how I've remained any kind of relevant my whole life. So the fact that Gary had someone standing up with and for me, he didn't like it at all. And I remember when I went back to CHFI, he said to Sandy Sanderson, he said, okay, they're your problem now. Like, how he saw me as a problem, I never ever knew, because we weren't a problem. We just stood up and said, actually, no, if you want to sign me on for another period, it's going to- you're going to have to sign three months, or sign six months, I can't be just at your beck and call. He wasn't used to people who said, no, sorry. That's not how it's gonna work for us. You know? It's hard to even talk about because that whole negotiating thing is just- it's as awful as, and again, here I come with the sports analogies. But, you know, if a player goes in, they tell you how awful you are, and then try and get you for a lower price. And they tried that with me, and it just didn't work. I said, no, you're- you're- you're either misinformed or lying to me, because none of that happened. So they weren't used to that either. And you mentioned Sandy Sanderson, so after that, it was the return to Rogers? Yeah, back to CHFI. And they- they brought Cooper with me. And he had to wait it out until the end of October. And so I sat in on the morning show with the afternoon guy, who's still there, Darren Osborne, all these years later at CHFI. And Darren sat in, and then Cooper came at the end of October, and it was like, whoosh, off we went. Matt Cundill  36:33 And all those years- I mean, we're spanning a couple of decades here, but CHFI, those- those legendary call letters. In all of my trips to Toronto, whether it was an airport, or the train station, I'd get into a cab, and CHFI is on the radio, always. What made the station so special, that it performed so well for so many years? And still does to this day, for that matter. Erin Davis  36:58 A combination of really good marketing, really good marketing. I mean, they got in bed with some very big people in Tennessee, who did high quality commercials like using stars, from WKRP, Gilligan's Island, you know, all of these. Terry Gar, all of these names that the people who listened to CHFI knew, and put us in their orbit. Wow. So there was that. There was effective marketing, money to spend on advertising, attention to the product, the quality of the music, and the people on air. And we knew what we were and what we had. And I always felt like I was an ambassador, not just for the station, but for the city. Whenever- wherever I went, it was this giant responsibility, but honor to be part of CHFI, you know, and I always called it a family. We treated each other as a family. We did our Christmas Eve show where everybody kind of came together and brought their kids, and we did a show from six till midnight. One year, Matt, it was on one of every two radios on in the city. And I'll never ever forget that. They can put that in my obituary if anybody cares. So it was a family. And also that knowing that Ted Rogers was just a few floors up. I don't know, I took it all probably way too seriously. And that's why being fired devastated me. And anything that happened, I just took to heart and became a serial drinker. But- Pff. That went dark fast. Then anyway, it was just- it was so much. It was such an honor and such a responsibility, because CHFI was Toronto. Matt Cundill  38:41 Well, you look great. And you look healthy. For somebody who has made at least four references to their drinking along the way, it doesn't- it doesn't look like it's aged you, and it looks like your body just completely regenerates itself properly after like, what, two days later? Erin Davis  38:54 Oh, no, I'm sober. I've been sober for four and a half years. Yeah. Second time around. I was sober for 10 years in there, too. But yeah, it's no fairy tale. You know what the business costs you, and how drinking and partying was a part of the whole culture. When you had a good book, you went out and drank your face off. And you know, I wanted to fit in with the boys, there were cigars at the end of the night and everything else. So there was a lot of that. And of course, not knowing how to deal with the misogyny, and not being wanted all the time in the studio where you were doing your very best every day. And it was easier to go in hungover than- than to face the anger. Matt Cundill  39:36 Yeah, I felt that the role playing that I had to do on the radio made it difficult for me to be myself at times. And so I couldn't wait to have drinks on Friday for many, many years. And you know, I think- by the way, you didn't need a good book, because I think the motto was win or lose, we drink the booze. Erin Davis  39:57 Right? So true. Matt Cundill  39:59 Yeah, and so I can certainly see how- well, I certainly remember- that, you know, it was definitely something to- to enable us to get to- to Monday morning, the next morning or whatever- whatever came next. 2015-2016, I mean, there's so much, so much, that went on in the world. You know, we talked a little bit about massaging but you personally, you lost your daughter, and under, you know, these horrible circumstances. And at the same time, the world is changing, and at the same time, there's a Me Too movement coming. And so how did you cope? Erin Davis  40:34 I put on that face that you say, you know, to find out that our daughter had died in her sleep, while we were about to begin a remote broadcast in Jamaica that morning. That May 11th, 2015. It's just the most bizarre radio story ever because you know, it just- it tracks. Radio gave me everything, it gave me my husband. My daughter was born almost on the air. And you know, three months at home and gurgling in my arms, and hearing from mothers later who would start to lactate what Lauren cried on the radio. Dear God. So there was that such a connection that she grew up before listeners' ears, and then to- to find out that morning, and then have to leave a ballroom full of people who had gotten up to watch us do a show, and then just say, okay, now what? Because Lauren herself was a broadcaster in her own right in Ottawa, so it was already on the news wires, and making, you know, Canada AM and that sort of thing. And it's just all so frickin bizarre. She was on maternity leave, she had started, you know, in college in Ottawa, went to CFRA. And then had graduated to doing the new national news, for Christ's sake, she was 24. 23, when she went on mat leave. I mean, just so much promise and potential and talent, and just a wonderful woman and mother and loved her baby. Perhaps to death, because she was on a drug that we believe stopped her heart, and the drug was to help her to breastfeed, and the breastfeed lobby is so mean and loud and angry, that she listened to it all. So I took one month off. I didn't know how long I was going to take off. Because you just don't know. And you know, they thought, well, maybe she's never coming back. And that- that might have been a solution for a normal person. We checked normal at the door a long time ago, Matt, and Cooper had me on the phone, we did a live hit about two weeks after Lauren died. And I found myself laughing with him and him laughing. And I went, oh, okay, this is the medicine. Don't disregard this. Because you can sit and wish and think and do all of those things for the rest of your life, but- or you can get back at it. So one month to the day after Lauren died, I was back on the show with Mike. And I wasn't myself, my voice was about an octave lower, I was just still climbing out. And I talk about this in- in my book, Mourning Has Broken, that it felt like being out of air in your tanks at the bottom of the ocean every show, and just trying to get up to the surface. And at the end of the show, I would kind of stumble across the street, because we lived in condos on Bloor Street, right across from the radio station. And just kind of undressing on my way to the bedroom, and then just kind of collapsing, I was like, completely spent, because I had given everything that I possibly had. But it brought me back to life. It was like some sort of an IV, that gradually day by day I was healing, and doing it as publicly as people had seen our devastation. So then I thought, okay, if you can't be a good warning, be a good example. And I'm going to- I'm just going to try and get through this, and not show everybody- you know, I'm going to show you, but just kind of prove not what I was made of, but what can be possible. So hopefully, that's what I've done. Matt Cundill  44:11 So I'm working with a podcast that does deal with grief. And one of the things that comes up constantly is the expectation. And I'm sure you're coming back after a month, back to radio, I'm sure there must have been a few callers,  a few letters, a few notes, a few emails, from people saying it's too soon. Or telling you at what level, you know, grief should be experienced. And I think you might have even referenced that recently on Twitter, about- you know, the expectation that people have about what level you should be grieving, at what point, and you know, you should be over by now or something. Erin Davis  44:42 Yeah, that is the greatest mistake, because we have fixes for everything. And we are in this age where if you don't know something, you go to your phone or you ask whatever speaker's listening. So there is no timeline, no GPS, no rules, but part of our upbringing, part of our lives, is Miss Manners say that manners says, that manners is, the ability to not make other people uncomfortable. And your grief makes people uncomfortable. Because I don't know if it's like, like people used to not say cancer out loud, because as if it was contagious, as if you've said it, someone might catch it. And when they look at somebody who's got everything, and then the rug is pulled out from under their life, they go, Holy Hannah, that could happen to me. And it's- it's a very- it's a very uncomfortable reality. So there's that. You don't want to exploit or explore your grief too publicly, people don't want to know about that. It's just too awful. And so you try and be authentic, without being- let's put on a show, you know, the show must go on kind of thing. But really, life must go on. And so we had in our heads a mantra, that one day when we reunite with Lauren, and our souls come back together, because this was some sort of an agreement that we made, and she says, well, Mom, Dad, what did you do with your life after I left? That we have a damn good answer for her. And to me, that's the only standard I'm going to be held to, whether people think- you know, coming up, this May, it'll be nine years. And you should be over this by now. You never, ever get over your particular grief. You get through it. And how you get through it is such a completely personal experience, there is something called complicated grief that you should look into, if it's still deeply affecting your life and terrible ways. But other than that, it's- everybody's got a story that will break your heart, as Amanda Marshall sang, and it's so true. And it's just how you deal with it. And I'll take a breath here in a second, but you've hit on something that's so deeply personal and- and important to me. And it is Viktor Frankl, who wrote in Man's Search for Meaning that the only real thing humans can control is how we react to something. You can't control anything. And this is from a doctor, a psychiatrist who was in the death camps in the Holocaust, and observed and learned and later taught. The only thing we have control of, Matt, is how we react. It's stoicism at its very most basic. Matt Cundill  47:28 How did it end for you at CHFI? Erin Davis  47:30 Really nicely. It could have ended better. My dear sweet partner, Mike Cooper, had to leave the February that I left, 2016. His wife Debbie was diagnosed with stage four colon cancer, and she- he wanted to be with her as much as he could. And he was, he was, but he had to leave. And we all got that. And it's becoming a blur now, because then I was partnered with Darren B. Lam, who was just somebody from outer space who had been beamed into the studio. And I can't say anything about that experience that doesn't make me sound awful. So I just- I just won't. He didn't understand a human interaction or human experience, or he wouldn't let himself be human on the air. And maybe as time went on with Maureen, I think it got a little bit better. But just the fact that he vanished in thin air, called back to the mothership tells it all, and left the station in the lurch and left- you know, Cooper came back to be with Maureen, and thought that they were going to save the station when the station decided to do something altogether. I'm just- I'm so sad for what happened there. But not for me. Because Darren, bless him, bless his heart, as they say in the South. He gave me permission to leave, because I knew it wasn't fun anymore. And it was time to go and explore life outside of radio. So I made my announcement. It's so funny, because the great Rogers promotion machine, or PR machine, which had nothing to do with radio, we all kind of decided the date it would be announced. And at one point I said, you know that is the morning after the US election, should we- should we pick another day? Oh well, it'll be fine. And of course, everybody woke up to the news that Trump had won. And so there it is trending on Twitter. I see Breakfast Television on the studio's TV. It's like Erin, CHFI and Trump. I despise him for every, every reason, but that's- and that's not even one of them. I don't care that anything came out the day I announced I was leaving. Who cares about, you know, somebody leaving a radio show when that was happening? For crying out loud. Anyway, yes, go on. Well, I was gonna say in 2016 as well, there was that pivotal moment, but the Me Too moment, which happened throughout the entire year. And you must be saying to yourself, finally, people are seeing what I've been seeing, not just in the radio business but across most of the entertainment industry and beyond. It took me a long time to kind of open my eyes to what I had seen. Because the fact that I begged them in 1999, to say, hey, you know what, I've been doing this show 11 years. Can we make it Erin and Bob? Well no, it just sounds better, Bob and Erin. And I said, yeah, you're right. Sounds more like Don and Erin, people won't notice a difference. And just the little things that I did, to try and say, hey, over here, and the examples of abuse that I cited, and I still have the letter, I don't know why I've kept it. It's in a box of crap from years ago that I wrote, saying, please, please, please address what's going on in this studio, you know, the way I'm being treated and that sort of thing. And nobody wanted to say anything, least of all me, because at that time, my job was to not upset the applecart, because there were so many other girls they could have brought in to do this job. So I knew I was going to have to tough it out. And so I did. And it was only- it's like they say in the golf game. It's that one great shot that keeps you coming back. And there were great shots with Don, we had an amazing partnership at times, but I knew how much he resented me, and I think disliked me, for so many of those years. And it was such a father-daughter thing too, I was so looking for a dad spot in him, that he couldn't possibly give me. So yeah, I was to blame for a small part of it. But the misogyny that I saw around me, you know, like the- the guy, and I won't name his position because I don't know who he is now, but you know, groping the receptionist and- and her kind of disappearing, and all of the things that went on, and- and going on business trips. And his main job, this guy, was to pick up a waitress in the- in the hotel bar, or whatever. It was just- it was so icky. But what did we know? When I started at CFRA, I was thinking of Ed Needham, the other day, the late talk show host. He would call me the- who's the frail? The frail. Frail! And I didn't even know that was such an antiquated term to refer to a woman. And all of these- all of these- just- and at CKLW, being taken to strip clubs with the rest of the news guys. And- and I would go along because I needed to fit in. I couldn't be the one who was not one of the boys, because I wanted so much to succeed and be a part of it. So anyway, wow. How much is this therapy costing me, Matt? Matt Cundill  52:38 It's $150. Erin Davis  52:40 Okay, thank you. Matt Cundill  52:41 See Jane to book an appointment again next week. Erin Davis  52:45 That's the problem with therapy and people in radio, nobody gets us. Nobody understands our references, or why we're so effed up. And that was a thing that I found one after the other, after the other, once I got over my fear that they would recognize that it was me who was on the radio coming in here and telling them all these stories, they just didn't understand. Well, why didn't you stop doing that? Why don't you say something to somebody? I can't..? Matt Cundill  53:10 I have a theory that the most successful morning shows are the ones that exist with codependent relationships. And so that sort of baseline of success, of codependency, really sort of spreads that- you know, throughout a radio station, between a program director and talent. It's very codependent, as opposed to being interdependent. So all of our relationships are dysfunctional. Then you throw in the other stuff, whether it's the misogyny and sexism, and all that stuff, and it's just a witch's brew. By Friday, you might need a beer, might need a joint, you might need to go to the strip club, you might need to go and- also acting, playing different roles. So at its root, it's dysfunctional. Erin Davis  53:50 I think also that radio attracts broken toys. We are the people who aren't normal. We're the ones who say, hey, look at me. And you have to build up an ego, not only to shield that vast insecurity, but so that when people tell you, you suck, the other one was better. What are you doing there? It doesn't destroy you. So it's- it's really hard. And you see people who are a-holes to listeners, but that's because they had to build that up and they're so used to being told that they're awful, that they don't care. But I took it all very personally, I'll tell you. In the middle of November every year, when CHFI turned to all Christmas music, I would get this barrage of phone calls and emails, people so angry that their radio station was playing Burl Ives in November. And I took it personally, that's what a yutz I was. It was just like, please stop. And so I would have a countdown on the wall to to when Christmas came, and it wasn't like an advent calendar. It was almost like, we can do this. We can survive this. Because it was- it was awful. What a baby, eh? Too bad for you. Number one station in the city and the country, and you're complaining because people are mad about Christmas music. But that's what happens when you take it all personally, right? Matt Cundill  55:08 Well, that's the power of radio, people are complaining about a product they're getting for free. Erin Davis  55:12 Haha! That's right, you know you have buttons. But what hurt me was that- giving them a reason to push the button. That was always the thing. Never give them a reason, Matt, right? Don't do anything that might give them a reason to find another station that they maybe like better. Oh my god, what if they like Marilyn better? Well, of course they do. She's on television. No, don't let them leave. Matt Cundill  55:36 You mentioned therapy. One of the best methods of therapy is writing. And you wrote a book. What's it like to write a book? Erin Davis  55:44 Oh, it was awful. But here's the thing. I had been writing a journal since 2003. So every day I had the discipline of getting that message out. First, it was to 80 people. And I was saying to my husband the other day, thinking okay. It's been 21 years we're going into of doing this. And it used to be daily. And now it's once a week, thank God, I came to my senses. And I said, how many- is it still worth doing? He said, yeah, there's about 1200, 1300 people who read it every time you put it up. So, okay, I'll keep at it. But Malcolm Gladwell talks about the 10,000 hours, and I'd had that of my writing. So it turns out, when I announced I was leaving CHFI, Tracy Moore, bless her, on Cityline had me on the show, and I told my story of Lauren dying, and going back to radio, and what our lives were, and how her baby boy was doing and everything. And in the audience that day- and it's the wildest thing, was the Executive Editor/Publisher of HarperCollins. And she contacted me, and I didn't even open the email for days, because I was just so inundated with emails, and it said, we think you have a book in you. And it's like, okay, am I going to do this? My husband, my light, love, strength and stay, said, no, don't. And one of my sister says, why does the world need another book about grief? And these, of course, the sisters are the voices in my head anyway. And so I thought that, what can I possibly bring to the table about grief that hasn't been written so much more eloquently numerous times, for millennia, or as long as people have been, you know, carving in caves? So then, we started to talk about what the book would be. And it morphed into this, not only our story, but things I'd learned, and I was so often contacted by other bereaved parents who told me their experiences. And so I was able to mine some of that, and my own- another sister who knew from grief with the death of her son, and the death of a baby. So she had her own experiences. And then I thought, okay, I can put my own voice in this. And people may want to read it, because they know me, and they knew our story. But did they really know it? So writing it while people thought and obviously, it's a question that came up a lot during the book tour- was it cathartic? Was it cathartic? The answer should have been yes. But no. Because when you grief to this extent, when you grieve to this extent, to me, I put a cloak on. It was the cloak of grief and shock that protected me and kept me going, you know, kept me facing forward, do a show, get through it, and then just do what you have to do to survive it at home. But going into the book was- I had to ask my husband, okay, what happened that morning, when you got the phone call in the hotel lobby, and then I came out from the ballroom asking, where are you? What happened? What did people do? What did the- what did the guests say? What- how did we- because I had forgotten it all. And that's kind of how I function. I can compartmentalize things really well. And it's how I could survive. So writing the book was not cathartic. It was dirty. And I would- I got to the point where, where Iris, the publisher, said, do you need a ghost writer? And I went, Oh, no, no, no, no, no, I'm writing this thing. Okay, you've lit a fire. So I did get to writing it. I love deadlines. And I would say okay, today I'm gonna write 1000 words, and then we're gonna go back out and just go through it. And Rob edited, he would do the first edit for me. So he was neck deep in it as well. So it was hard. But ultimately extremely gratifying. Because to this day, I still have people saying, I just read your book, or I've given your book to a friend of mine whose son just died. So the message continues, you know, life after loss. Matt Cundill  59:37 2020, another monumental year on our planet, but you're inducted into the Hall of Fame. Did you get to do that in person, or was that an online event? Erin Davis  59:46 Did that happen? Did that really happen, Matt? Because no. It was online. And it was hilarious, because I got all made up, I was all ready, I was in front of my camera and stuff. And I was waiting that night for the FedEx to come with the award, and it was going to come, and I was going to shoot something, and then they were going to put it up right away. I don't remember why I had turned it into such a thing. But I sat there like the girl awaiting her date who stood her up on prom night. The delivery never came. And so I just shot a thank you without holding it. It was so surreal. And it was a moment that I- again, I'm- did it happen? Because I didn't get to- get to do it in front of everybody. And just to experience that communally with- with my peers. It was sad. It was sad. But I'm grateful. God, it looks good on a bio, for what it's worth. Matt Cundill  1:00:36 It does. It's- I can see you standing there at the front and accepting the award and, you know, 10 minute speeches and all that stuff. And no, it didn't. It was 2020. Erin Davis  1:00:46 Yeah, it was. Yeah. I didn't even remember that that was the year, as a matter of fact, but yeah, it happened. And I don't know, maybe one day I'll go back and induct somebody else. But who knows? Who knows? Matt Cundill  1:00:59 Tell me about podcasting. What brought you to start one? Erin Davis  1:01:02 I couldn't not. I mean, I was doing my journals, and then I decided, okay, it's COVID. I'm going to do video journals. Because we can do this. So I set myself up in an arm chair with some lighting and figured out how to use my iPad as a prompter behind my computer camera, and started doing that just to connect with people and let them know, okay, we're all still together. We're here. And then the first one I did was for Slagle Villages retirement homes, and it was called Elder Wisdom. And it still continues, Kathy Buckworth, who is on AM 740. She's Zoomer radio. She's doing it now, because we did it for two years, kind of stepped away. But it was a podcast with a co-host in his 80's, who lived there. And then just the shared experiences, the stories that never get told. I mean, on paper, it sounds like, oh, this is going to be a dud. But once you get great producers who prep all these people, and- anyway, that was the first one. And then the Canadian Real Estate Association reached out to me and said, we're gonna do a podcast, would you like to host it? Because I'd already been doing live events emceeing for them. And yeah, I said, sure. So that has turned out to be a really great thing. And this year, we're doing 100% video, I have a much better set than just my poorly lit awful studio here. But it's really neat, because now it's video, and that's monthly. And then my friend Lisa Brandt, who did radio forever, same as me. We're born like 12 days apart. We are like sisters, but hopefully have differing enough opinions to make it interesting. So then we started Gracefully and Frankly, I was just playing with names. And I was thinking, Grace and Frankie, Grace- oh, gracefully and frankly, and that's where it came from. And in there, I also began a sleep podcast called Drift, which is now over 100 stories, over a quarter million downloads. And last night, this morning, at two in the morning, I came up with a tagline. It says- just a minute, I'm gonna find it. I just- I'm so proud of this, Matt, and you're the first person that's going to hear it. Listen to this. Okay. Blah, blah, blah. On Drift tonight, Drift with Erin Davis sleep podcast. 100 plus stories await you for free. You're not dreaming... yet.  You're not dreaming... yet. And I'm not even looking it up to see if it's some pillow company. Oh my god, what if it's a pillow guy? Anyway, yeah, I'm really proud of that one. Because it started- really, for me, not being able to sleep at night, listening to calm stories and going, why am I not doing this? So there. Four podcasts. Just three now, though, I'm cutting back. Matt Cundill  1:03:16 Perfect.  Well, I took you to bed last night. Erin Davis  1:03:42 Oh, really? You were the best, best last night. Matt Cundill  1:03:47 Well, that may be why the slogan came up right when I was downloading your show. I just wanted to actually just double check a number here, because I think- I just want to put it into context for listeners, because I know a lot of people have been listening to the show. We're going on eight years now. And you've mentioned that you hit a quarter million downloads total. And this podcast, which has been going for eight years- I keep these numbers here somewhere. So very boring. Erin Davis  1:04:11 You should, and Broadcast Dialogue has you right there. I mean, wow. Matt Cundill  1:04:15 So this podcast has the same. We have 253,000 downloads, since I started tracking it eight years ago on Podtrak. But here you are with the same number of historical downloads in a shorter period of time. This is a huge audience for you. And there's a lot of people who need to get to sleep. Erin Davis  1:04:35 Yes, exactly. Wow. Well, congratulations to you. Alright, Matt, it's on. Let's check in in a year. Matt Cundill  1:04:42 Listen, there's not as many people in radio now who are going to be, like, looking for these stories, which is why we put podcast ones in there as well. But I love the goal. The goal of your show, by the way, is to not get to the end of the show. And the goal of my show is to get people to the end. Erin Davis  1:04:54 Isn't that amazing? I mean, it's like this karmic turnaround after years of waking people up when they wanted to be sleeping, I'm doing the exact opposite. And it's so gratifying. Oh my god, I'm loving. It's called Drift with Erin Davis Sleep Stories. And the Lisa Brandt one, I've already said, is Gracefully and Frankly, we are loving that. Because how often you get to talk with your best friend and just talk about anything? And it's like radio without the commercials, without the music, and just kind of the occasional swear word. But we never say the F-bomb because kids are around, and my grandson listens to it! He says, yeah, you're on Spotify. I said what are you doing? He says, I listen to you and Miss Lisa up in my room. And it's like, that's Lauren's boy, you know? Listening to gramma banana on the radio, sort of. Matt Cundill  1:05:42 What app do you use to listen to podcasts? Erin Davis  1:05:44 I listen on Amazon, on Prime. At night, what I listened to to go to sleep is American History with Lindsey Graham. Just tell me a story. Not that Lindsey Graham, not- not Miss Lindsay. The one- you know, he's a really good podcaster. I want to hear a story that is told well, I put it on point eight, so it's slower. And then it's kind of boring. But it's- and doesn't have commercials to wake you up, and doesn't have a bunch of music. I mean, other than that, I love listening to Badlands and Hollywoodland and stuff that- and I listen to Dateline on my dog walks, but- and of course you, Matt, I can't leave you out. Matt Cundill  1:06:23 I love that you listen to history, because I am a history nut, and I will listen to history podcasts to go to sleep, but you're the very first person I've ever met who will listen to a podcast at a slower speed. Erin Davis  1:06:33 Well, that's to go to sleep. But you know, I listen to my news podcasts a little faster. Usually 1.2. But yeah, just more slowly to go to sleep. And then I don't have to really pay attention to the word so much because they're being fed to me just more gently. Yeah, I love podcasting. I came in hating it. I resented the hell out of it, because I thought you're killing radio. And then I realized no, no, this is making up for what radio could be, should be, and can't be. I mean, you could listen to Howard Stern for- like, I got a sister who listens to him constantly. And I always had this thing against him because of his misogyny, because of them putting him on Q107 in Toronto, you know, when he didn't belong there. He wasn't- he wasn't local. But then you kind of go wait, he's a great interviewer, now that he's kind of off of the boobs and butts and stuff more. And he gets people to be honest with him, and you get stuff from him that you don't get anywhere else. So pay attention to that. And how can you do that? You know? I love interviewing. Christ. I love talking. I'm so sorry to have been talking so much here, Matt. Matt Cundill  1:07:38 I'm sorry. Is there a program director who's telling us to wrap it up? Erin Davis  1:07:41 No. But I- Ahhh. Matt Cundill  1:07:44 No. Listen, you mentioned Howard Stern. When people say, who do you love as interviewers? It's Terry Gross. It's Howard Stern. And I'll throw in Dan Patrick, because I like it when Dan Patrick does- interviews my favorite sports person, the questions are short, and he gets right to the point. Erin Davis  1:07:59 Yeah, I love that. The people who don't make the questions all about them unless it is for context. And you're really good at that, by the way, you really are. I feel so comfortable. I'm just going on and on, and I'm so sorry. But when you get talking to me about communicating and radio... Thanks for coming to my ED Talk. E.D. Matt Cundill  1:08:19 Why were you resentful of podcasting? Like, why would you look at it and go, this is taking all of radio. You know, radio used to be the one, it was always the Valerie Gellars that came in, we want to speak directly to the listener, we want to make it personal. We want to make it feel like it's one on one. And now when people asked me about the difference between radio and podcasts, and I say, well, radio, they talk at you, and podcasting they talk to you. Erin Davis  1:08:42 Yes, I was resentful. Partly- okay, there was an ego thing that came in and said, wait a minute, I've done all this training. I've done all this slogging through crap. And you're just gonna come on and do your little podcast, and it's gonna be- I'm gonna talk about- you know, and so there was this ego in me that said, anybody can do this? Why? But then that's the beauty of it. I opened my eyes and said, get out of your own way. Anybody can do this. Anyone can be a good storyteller. Anyone has a story to tell. And that's what I used to love about biography. Remember when A&E was actually arts and entertainment? Oh God, who's old? Get off my lawn. But biography, you would go in there going, I couldn't care less about the guy who started Cadbury, and then you go, aw, this is really neat. Because if you tell a story, well, it's like that break Valerie had you retool and make better. It's always going to be good. So that's the beauty of podcasting. And I resented it, Matt, because I thought it was going to take away from our radio audience. And again, never give them a reason to change the channel or to find something else. And the more that we, you know, found the stuff that they were making us do that was so inane, you know, like the all music hour at 8am, with- with, you know, no commercials, but no talk. No hosts, and it was just so stupid. And it happened around 911. They did that to us. The night of 911, that program director phoned me and said, well, everything that's been said about it is going to be- it's already been said. So let's just go back to our regular programming tomorrow. When the rule the Valerie Gellar rule was, is my world safe? You needed to hold people's hands and tell them the stories, and we weren't allowed to do that. Podcasting said, over here, and then came in and told the stories, and it's just amazing. I love it now. I love it. It gives me an outlet and keeps me busy. I love it. Matt Cundill  1:10:48 I want to thank you for taking the time, just before you head off down south for- for a few weeks of hopefully some wonderful sunshine. Erin Davis  1:10:54 Yeah, going to California. I'm very picky about where I go now. They've changed their open carry laws, which kind of helps, but yeah, it's- every place is a little bit insane. Rob and I are taking our son in law and his wife, our daughter in law, that's- you know, it's weird family dynamic, but it works- and our two grandkids and we're going down and they're going to do Super Mario World and we'll get on a hop, on hop off bus or- I don't know, go see Jimmy Kimmel or something. I don't know. My days- they Disney'd did that out of me when I was in the radio station. We had to work for the mouse really hard, like a rented mule. And so we're just going to enjoy. It won't be warmer than it is here in the Victoria BC area, but we'll have a really neat experience. Matt Cundill  1:11:39 Thank you so much for doing this. It's so good to meet you finally. Erin Davis  1:11:42 Oh Matt. Thank you. Meeting you and being able to talk to your audience one on one. It just means the world to me,and I'm so grateful to you for asking. Have a wonderful- and I know we're well into the year now, but I never get tired- oh, a Happy Lunar New Year. Now I can say that.  There we go.  There we go. Year of the dragon, away you go. Tara Sands (Voiceover)  1:12:01 The Sound Off Podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski. Edited by Chloe Emond-Lane. Social media by Aidan Glassey. Another great creation from the Soundoff Media Company. There's always more at soundoffpodcast.com.

Andrew "Hustler" Paterson is the owner of Winnipeg Sports Talk. TSN 1290 abandoned the Sports Radio format back in February 2021, and since then, he and his producer Michael Remis have filled the gap, putting out high-quality daily sports content for the people of Winnipeg to enjoy. Hustler started in radio with a Saturday sports show on CFEQ 107.1 the Freak, and proceeded to build his brand through stints at the Winnipeg Free Press and CJOB. This means he was around for the return of the Winnipeg Jets to the NHL in 2011, and we talk about everything that meant for the Winnipeg sports community. We also the rise and demise of TSN 1290, the former major sports radio broadcast in Winnipeg. However, the note-taking begins when you hear what Hustler did AFTER the station went off the air. We also talk about how he chooses his subject matter, and how much he can talk about- between NHL, MLB, NFL, CFL and everything else Winnipeg sports fans are interested in, the content well is never truly dry. You can connect with Winnipeg Sports Talk here. TRANSCRIPTION Tara Sands (Voiceover)  00:02 The Sound Off Podcast. The show about podcast and broadcast starts now. Matt Cundill  00:13 Back in November, I went to check out my local NHL team. The Jets were successful that night, with a win over the Coyotes by a score of five to two. Now it's been nearly three years since all sports radio, TSN 1290 in Winnipeg, was switched out and later shut down. And I wonder: how do people follow the Winnipeg Jets locally? Is there a place where you can, you know, break down the third line situation or discuss the powerplay at great lengths? Now I don't want to pretend that Jim Toast's one hour show, Jets at Noon, doesn't exist on CJOB. It pulls in over 16,000 listeners on a news talk station. Not bad. But what if you want to talk Jets right now? So I turned to ask the person behind me. Sean Murray was that person. I get very brave after the third beer, by the way. He told me he listens to Andrew Paterson's podcast while at work, but says he misses the immediacy of radio. Andrew Paterson, known as Hustler, started on Winnipeg radio in 2006 and started his own business shortly after TSN 1290 concluded. Today, Winnipeg Sports Talk is a part of a healthy sports media diet for those in the 'Peg. Andrew Paterson joins me from the studios of Winnipeg Sports Talk. Andrew Paterson  01:32 The first time I was on the radio was on a station called Freak 107. And a guy Jared Hanna reached out to me. I was doing a just a fun football show on Shaw TV with a couple of guys, that- you know, we'd make football picks and we talk about the games and they sort of used it to promote the NFL Sunday Ticket package. Was just before the Turin Olympics in '06 that Jared called me and said, Hey, love what you're doing on the show. Would you be interested in doing some radio stuff? And I- I said yeah, I mean, I'd never really thought about it. It hadn't been something that I was looking to do. But I said it would be fun. And I started off, I'd run in there in the morning before going to work. And I'd record a two minute, sort of an Olympic update. This is what's happened, this is what's happening today. And I guess they would run it, and they got it sponsored or something like that. And they'd run it on the station. So I did that for the two weeks. And they really liked having me in. So they said, why don't you keep coming in, and you can jump in with the morning show for a segment? And I said that sounds pretty fun. Yeah, sure, I'll do that. And then at the time he offered, he said, you know, if you would like to do a sports show, we could give you the time, like we don't have a budget for it. But if you could make it worth your while, get a sponsor or two, we'd love to have you. So at that point, Gary Lawless, who was with the Freak, was a buddy of mine, and he hadn't been here for very long. And he told me over a beer just on Corden one night that hey, if you're gonna do something, let me know. Like the good sports talk and sports radio was really the stuff that you'd have over a couple pints, you know, at the- at the bar. So we started a show. It was just- it was like 90 minutes on Saturday mornings from like, 10:30 to noon on Freak. And that went really well for us. And then- well in the meantime, actually, I got a chance to do the- heh, it's kind of funny. We went from just doing that, to filling in for- the program director and his sidekick did the afternoon show. And David Lewis had just moved here. And I'd met him in the building. He was going to be filling in and said, Hey, would you want to do it? So we did two weeks together. They loved it. And they literally came back that weekend and asked us if we would do the morning show starting Monday. So I did about a year where I was doing a morning show from six to nine. And then I was putting on the World Women's Hockey Championship for Hockey Canada at the time. So it was sort of crazy. Not a lot of sleep. But I mean, I loved the opportunity to do it. I said yes to everything. But that was sort of side. The main thing, for me at least was the sports show. And then we went to- Vic Grant brought us over to CJOB, I want to say in '07 or- maybe late '07 or something like that? And then we turned into a five day a week show in 2009. When the Moose were in the Calder cup, they sort of revamped the old primetime sports slot and gave it to us from six to eight, and that was when Hustler and Lawless was sort of born. Matt Cundill  04:32 So a couple of things to unpack there, including Freak 107, which was the renegade rock station at the end of the dial with no budget for anything. You mentioned the name Jared Hannah. Actually, I got to spend a year with him. I think both of our kids played on the same hockey team at one point. So, it's so Winnipeg that you would- the first name out of your mouth is like, yeah, I know that guy. Andrew Paterson  04:53 Totally. Matt Cundill  04:54 And then, you know, Freak 107 was this hard rock radio station that was in the face of Power 97 most of the time, and you mentioned some names. I think Gord Fry was in there. So many- David Lewis, you mentioned. That was somebody that I wound up hiring in the years later at Power 97. And then you came to work at Corus, and we worked in the same building on and off for about the same time. And I guess there was a demise of Freak 107, and that sort of maybe left you a free agent? Or did you just come straight over from there into into CJOB? Andrew Paterson  05:24 No, I mean, we were there. And I mean, man, the Freak days, I mean, Gary and I, when we're talking about it, we always refer to it as the shower curtain days, because the- the studio was like, just this room. And there was some other stuff, but they have what was essentially a glorified shower curtain if you wanted to pull it around for privacy while the show was going on. But yeah, I mean, I didn't know a lot about it. I didn't mind the music on it. I mean, it was hilarious, because they actually had a Christian programming license. So the hoops they had to go through to justify all the stuff that they were putting on, which really, from my perspective, was just trying to be a rock station, like a Power or whatever. Another option for people. Was pretty funny. But it was unbelievable for me, because it's someone that didn't have any experience, and was just going in almost more as a guest, to be sort of just authentic, be myself, talk sports. It was, I mean, incredible experience. I mean, I sort of feel like I got a crash course in how everything works as a raw rookie, very quickly. And you know, it was a smaller station. So if you screw up, or make a mistake, it wasn't really the end of the world. But yeah, no, we loved it. We were continuing doing the show, right until we got the opportunity to go to OB, and we went to OB and Freak was still around for another year or two after that. But obviously, I mean, talking sports in Winnipeg pre sports radio, CJOB was the station, it was always a monster as well. So to be able to take our little Saturday morning show from a station where people really had to go to find it, to a place where people were there anyways, was a huge opportunity. And it really took off, like, right off the bat. And Vic was super supportive. He loved the show, he liked us, he wanted more of that on, and after, I think, we did enough time and were polished enough- I'm not sure we ever really got polished, myself and Gary- but we got the chance to go make it five days a week. And that, for me personally, was a huge change from something that was just sort of a neat opportunity to do something fun, to something that maybe could turn into something more. That was a bit of a crossroads, having worked at TrueNorth and the Moose and Hockey Canada for a long time. And I sort of knew at the end of that term position, putting on that World Women's Hockey Championship, there'd be a number of opportunities I could do and I had to figure out what I wanted to, and the more we did it together, the more fun we had, the more I thought that this might be something I could do long term.  Tell me about the Winnipeg sports scene before 2011, and then after May of 2011.  Well you know, as someone that was hustling tickets for, you know, the Jets as a young university student, and then had the team leave and was like the third employee at the Moose. I mean, the late 90s, post-Jets leaving, was a really dark time. I mean, I can tell you that myself and tons of friends didn't even want to watch the National Hockey League. Did not care, did not want to know, you couldn't have been more turned off as to having something, you know, like losing a team, I mean, affects you. I mean, sports fans are so passionate, and to have that ripped out was- like, listen, it took a long time for people to sort of get back to, okay, we're sports fans, let's get in, it was a real tough sell at the start to- for people to give the Moose a chance. But I would say that over the course of that period of time, those 15 years, Winnipeg slowly got back to, you know, themselves as being you know, a real sports town. But to be honest, Matt, I- I could never really honestly imagine that the Jets would come back, I mean, everything to fall into place. Being in that office for so long, and seeing the struggle just to build up a minor league team that, you know, would be supported. It didn't- I don't know, it was the economics of the league too. It just didn't seem realistic. But that period of time when we were on OB leading into moving to TSN, and the Jets coming back, was a period I think of some real excitement. You know, the Bombers were better. They went to the Grey Cup, obviously, in '07 and lost. I think people were sorta back, and were back in on hockey and watching it more regularly. Post 2011, bringing the Jets back, I mean, like anyone that's been here- it was a sea change that we'll never see again in our lifetime, on a positive sense. The only thing that you could probably compare it to is 1996 in losing the team. And I think that, in a lot of ways, spawned a new generation of sports fans. Certainly the passion that everyone showed for the Jets right off the bat that did not let up for a long time, you know, the rising tide helped other teams. Certainly the Bombers had pressure on to actually do something. And we know how that team has turned around. But I mean, it also opened up- it lead to things like the Moose coming back. Now, the basketball team, the Ice when they were here. I think we got the reputation that we were a great sports market. And it went from being very, very light, to frankly, being one of the busiest sports towns, when you think about the population and all the things happening in the entire country. Matt Cundill  09:55 And as well, the building for rock concerts, so the building was there. I think at one point, it was like, you know, Kevin Donnelly, who does all the bookings for music, at least in there, I think told me that it was the number three venue in North America at one point with all the traffic coming through, and Winnipeg is not close to much. So you have to be a little bit creative with the routing when you want to bring someone through town. Andrew Paterson  10:41 There's no doubt about it. I mean, K.D's- He's a guy that has so much incredible experience doing everything that he'd done in the concert industry beforehand. He was literally the perfect guy, I think, to come in and be the non hockey side of that building. And you're right, and listen, you know, obviously, there's a lot that's changed since 2011. The pandemic, in particular, and what that did to live events and live music. But yeah, the first few years of that venue, I mean, if it wasn't a hockey game, there were concerts going on, they were bidding on everything. And it was- I was- listen, it was fun to be around, it was just great for the city. And even if you weren't a sports fan, music fan, comedy fan, I mean, all of a sudden, you had someone like Donnelly programming the- the building, and pretty good track record of filling it for a lot more than just sporting events. Matt Cundill  11:52 So I was a part of the Corus management team that was aiming to get the Jets broadcast rights for radio. You wound up going to work for the rights holder at TSN. Why did they get the rights and not Corus? From what you know? Andrew Paterson  12:08 I would say that it probably has a lot to do with the television deal. Basically TSN came in and stepped up with a big offer to be the television partner, from my understanding. And again, I wasn't in any of those meetings. I mean, I'm pretty sure they said these are tied together. If you want us to be your TV partner, we're doing the whole thing. So I think that- really when it came down to it, I mean, I'm sure money was a big part of it. I don't know exactly what the numbers were, what anyone was offering or how that would work. But it was pretty clear that that was a package that the radio rights were tied in with the television broadcast rights. And if Bell Media was going to be buying it, they were going to be doing the whole thing and not giving off another piece to a competitor. Matt Cundill  12:56 Yeah, I actually think I asked a question I knew the answer to, but I wanted to make sure that I knew the answer, which is why I asked it. So I got the feeling that, you know, Corus could have kept getting higher and higher and higher. But in the end, it really needed to all be bundled together and to go to one place. Andrew Paterson  13:12 Yeah, I mean, for me at that time, it was crazy for us, because, you know, we got the offer to come over to TSN to be the flagship show on this new sports radio station. You know, while we were still doing shows at OB, and, you know, our agreement with OB- and it's kind of funny, because it was such a big station. And you know, but- I mean, I never got a check once from OB the entire time I was there. We kind of had our own company, we had a deal where they put us on, we had the opportunity to get some sponsors for our show and deliver it within the within the show. I had a good sales background, Gary hustled as well. So it made a lot of sense for us to do it. But I mean, we had no contract or anything like that. That was sort of the way, so when we got this opportunity- I mean, I've always been a guy that's totally believed in the medium of sports radio, even when I was doing all my other stuff before I even talked into a microphone once. My entire life, I've been a sports radio nerd, if you will, listening to shows in other stations if I could, anything that was here in Winnipeg. So I really believed that there was a demand, and the- like, and this could work. But again, this was before like, even- even at that time, like in early 2011. It didn't really seem real that NHL was gonna come here. Matt Cundill  14:31 No, it was a big secret. And even up until early May. We hear rumblings. But you can't report on rumblings. And it was quiet. Andrew Paterson  14:43 And as someone that had been with the team when the team left, and had been there all the time, I had maybe programmed myself to not get my hopes up. Like I didn't want to be- I didn't want to go back to where I was in '97, being in that that state of depression, to be frank, you know, thinking that it's going to happen and not. So it was sort of outside. So when we made the move there, it was completely outside of the fact that maybe the Jets would be coming back or that if we went there, they would be doing, you know, that they might get the shows or get the broadcast. Matt Cundill  15:19 So you jumped before it was announced. Andrew Paterson  15:21 We jumped before it was announced, before the station was even announced. They had started- when we went there, we were on Sports Radio 1290. And it was an opportunity for us to go in, do our show every day, at a drive time. I mean, Gary was a big part of the move as well, because he had a young family. His daughter at the time was like one or something like that. So to do the show, to work all day, and then to do six to eight, and we were always at the casino during the program, the live programming there. He was getting home at 8:30 and his baby was just in bed. And so for family reasons, he really wanted to be in that drive slot, which for sports radio was the best slot you can be in. But listen, we knew that wasn't happening at OB. I mean, they're not changing the entire format of the show. They're not moving out their drive and news to have these two knuckleheads talk about, you know, whatever happened last night in the NFL. Matt Cundill  16:24 Were you listening in on our meetings? Andrew Paterson  16:26 No, but I can imagine what they were like. Matt Cundill  16:28 That's probably how it would have gone. Andrew Paterson  16:29 Yeah, that just wasn't a realistic possibility. Matt Cundill  16:33 Yeah. Andrew Paterson  16:34 So like, the time slot was also a big opportunity. Listen, it was a big- it was a big risk. I mean, our numbers- our numbers in our share in that time slot when we were at OB after a year or so were massive. But I think that kind of gave us confidence that we did have a following. We knew that there was a commitment from the people at Bell to make the station work. And, you know, we went in with relatively low goal, like they had a three year plan. Oh, we want to get to a five share in the demo by the third year. We had like 11 in the first book, but a lot of things happened between them, like we went in, and we were waiting to start on a particular day. And Steven Brunt's report that the Winnipeg Jets are coming back broke. And I'll never forget, I was sitting at Confusion Corner having a couple beers and a burger with friends. And I got a call from Chris Brooke, my boss. He said this is happening, get down here. And that was actually our first broadcast. 1290, at the time, was doing a live show about the return of the Jets. People knew us, we hadn't been on for a little bit because we were waiting to to start things up. From then on, once we had done that show, they said you know what, let's speed up the plan. We're live. And we were there right away from four till six. But I always tell people- in that- so we started in May. In the period from us going there in May, without any guarantees that there was even going to be a team, nevermind any arrangement between our new station and the Jets. We had the Jets officially come back, the sports radio 1290 changed to TSN 1290, which immediately had a much bigger cache for people that didn't really know what sports radio 1290 was, to getting the Jets rights. So I mean, you fast forward five or six, we basically had like five or 10 years of growth and development in six months. And for guys that started late, it was- it was perfect for us. And listen, by the time we got going in the fall of 2011, when the team came back, we were running numbers as if we'd been a mainstay in that time on that station for a long time. And listen, it was great to know. And it put us in a much better- it put us in a much better negotiating position with the folks there, because they had brought us over in a similar way that OB did, saying, hey, we don't have a big budget for you. But we'd already been- we'd worked on a book of business, we had loyal sponsors. We kind of liked doing it ourselves, and it being our show. So as things changed quickly in the next couple of years, they sorta had to come back to us and say, Yeah, we need to change this deal a little bit, because we're way beyond where we thought we'd be, and we can't have you guys having 60% of the inventory of our drive time. So it was- it was advantageous for us. And I mean, no one could have imagined how quickly that station would have established with us. But it was very, very cool being there on day one right there until the final day. Matt Cundill  19:37 And I think as I went through the years, I did pay attention to the ratings a lot, because I was programming the rock station over on FM, and where do males go when they don't want to listen to music? Their next choice is to move over, likely, to AM for some sports talk. I think that's a habit that- that obviously happened for- for a long, long time. So remember, just some numbers off the top of my head. I opened the book during game time. So let's say eight o'clock on a Tuesday, why the Jets like playing Tuesday night is beyond me. But a lot of teams do like that Tuesday night slot. And you know, Oh look, there's a 28 share of, you know, men 18 to 54. And so you know, listening to the game on the radios just seems to be the thing to do. And there's like 10 other stations just playing records, and the AM band, alive and well, CJOB was there, 1290 was there as well. So lots of reason for- for people to go and check it out. And then you had the morning show, which again, you know, waking up and people doing, you know, talking sports in the morning. I mean, we can have a debate all day about what content should go on on a sports radio Morning Show. Middays was a little bit- I think there was some satellite involved, wasn't there? I don't know that there was necessarily a live body in there all the time for middays. Andrew Paterson  20:55 Well originally, when we started, it was just us. And they had the Jim Rome show beforehand, Matt Libel and Joel Marku were working there from day one, and they would go in and do the updates and stuff. But other than that, they would just have program and that it really changed once we- we started H and L there daily. And then they got a morning show in to coincide with September and the start of it. But very quickly, the entire day was full, because as part of the radio broadcast rights, Rick Ralph joined us, and Rick was doing the pre and post game. But he also did the midday show, which was called the Roundtable and he would have different guys come in, but he was an experienced broadcaster, he'd do a lot of this stuff himself, he'd have like Edmonds, or- nah, I guess Edmonds wasn't yet on the road, but like Shane Nidey, who at that time was doing the- the Jets broadcast before taking off with- with his star, so they got it to a six to six, live programming. And again, this is like 2011-2012. As we've seen with so many stations, that eventually sort of got eroded away, but they would do- Yeah, it was- Rick would do 11 to 1, and they would replay the Roundtable from 1 to 3, and then we would go in. And then when we kind of redid the contract and Gary and I both joined the company as employees, if you will, and essentially sold them the show, I got my own hour from two to three which was called the Warm Up and I got to talk about more like sports betting stuff, and pop culture, and it was sort of a fun- it was a wacky show. Like I was really able to really have fun, and then Gary would roll in and we'd go from three to six with H and L and a little bit more serious tone, like it wasn't as goofy as the two to three. So yeah, I mean they had- for most of the time, they had pretty much live programming throughout the day. But then later on you saw, oh, we're gonna do a replay hour here, we're gonna bring this in there, and I- you know, it just started off as they started to whack people, chalk them off as we've seen at so many stations. The station and the programming got wil- whittled away a little bit. But for us in our slot, we were consistent there, on the drive every day from the start till the end of 1290. Matt Cundill  23:24 So some shout outs, I guess to Rick Ralph. Greenwood, Nova Scotia in the house. Andrew Paterson  23:28 You know it, you know it. Matt Cundill  23:30 And Matt Libel, who taught my kids Hebrew. Andrew Paterson  23:33 Hey, listen, the sports Rabbi. Still have him on the show now when he's kind enough to grace 'em with- with this presence. Oh, man, like thinking back to that station- I mean, the characters that were in there. I mean, when you think of the morning show with- I mean, Libel, I think probably was the best host. He's such a brilliant guy. He was so good. And he was so different than Westie, and Rewicky, and Toth when he was there, like, just Matt's- I can't say enough about him. All those other guys bring a lot to the table. But Matt was so unique of getting the best out of people, making them feel comfortable enough, even when he was making fun of them or whatever, doing that sort of thing. He was great. And then Joe Marku behind the scenes, and obviously our bosses, Chris Brooke ran the station, Matt Carney. He's been around in this business for a long time, he was there. So it was- it was a lot of fun. And I mean that- I think back to those first three, four years at 1290 is maybe the most fun I've ever had doing anything. And I've been lucky enough to have some really great jobs and fun environments and businesses. Really, maybe up until what I'm doing now with Michael Remus post TSN. Matt Cundill  24:49 So I would also watch the ratings. And if the Jets had a playoff run, there were some, like, 12 plus numbers of- like a five share, close to a six share at one point. People knew it was there. I knew it was there, to the point where if I left the house- and by the way, I didn't love the station as much. I have my reasons, it might have to do with my relationship with hockey, and maybe I'm not- it's because I'm not a Winnipeg Jets fan. But you know, when you listen to it, or when I listened to it, it was a lot of digging deep on who's going to be the second line center? What are we doing with the third line? How's the fourth line performing? And I kept saying to myself, this isn't how deep I want to get with my hockey team. However, this is Winnipeg and this is the team and I totally get it. Listen, I go to Buffalo WGR55. I mean, the station is therapy for me. I mean, I think you've got a Chiefs shirt on right now. I think it's- is it KCFX 101? I might have to call letters wrong. Andrew Paterson  25:50 Yeah, the Fox does the- does the games on the FM dial, and they've got two sports radio stations, 810 and 610 AM, that sort of go head to head. Ironically, neither of them with the rights to the Chiefs. Matt Cundill  26:03 And sometimes that's a good thing, too, because you didn't have the rights to the Bombers. So I've had this conversation before. When you have the rights and when you don't have the rights, you can have different conversations. Andrew Paterson  26:14 Yeah, yeah. You know, I mean, I was- I have to say, I was lucky. And I don't know whether it was my boss, Chris. It was the way that we started, essentially. Okay, we'll come in, and we'll bring our show to you. We already had it, they came to us, we negotiated a deal that had us still basically being independent. But I can tell you that I never once, in that entire time, had anybody tell me, hey, you need to- like, don't go there. And I appreciated that. I don't think you could say the same for everybody else at the station. And maybe that was more our style of show, what we were talking about, like, we were never trying to do outrageous things to shock people, or to create controversy. Listen, Gary and I had enough going head to head with each other. We didn't need to manufacture anything. But I was- I was fortunate that- but you are right. I mean, I think at the end of the day, like if all of a sudden, you've got it out for the coach or the GM, and it can be as authentic as you want, and all of a sudden, that's what you're hammering each and every day. Like put it this way, you couldn't do that on OB right now. I don't think that would fly. For the most part, I think people are professionals, they understand the relationships and try and do their best to give people the best programming and the most authentic takes. But yeah, I think in some situations, people have had to bite their tongue or maybe go a different way. Although I can say I'm lucky that I never really faced that. Matt Cundill  27:42 I used to think, oh, maybe I'll just turn them on to see if they're talking about the third line center again. And then- and then of course, when the station eventually is not there, I'm like, I kind of miss this. You know? I guess Gary left at the- around the time of the creation of the Las Vegas Golden Knights. Is that right? Andrew Paterson  28:01 Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, we ran together from- on that station from its inception in early 2011, and Gary left, I want to say in the summer, or later on in 2016. Vegas had the team, they were building the team, and he made a pitch, you know, obviously he had good connections. And when we talk about the Manitoba mafia there, knowing Crim, Kelly McCrimmon. And some of the other guys were important. And you know, I think in a lot of ways, Gary was always a bit of a step of the game. He got out of newspapers before a lot of other people, and allowed himself, with the success that we'd had on our show, to transition to be doing kind of insider work and commentary on TSN, which helped him big time. And I think he saw where things were going, and in some ways, almost created a job for himself. Like he's- I think he's the only national hockey league team that has a- an insider, like his card says Vegas Golden Knights Insider. Well, he does a million different things. He's involved in communications. He's involved in events. He's involved on the broadcast, as content has- has grown, he does tons of things like that. But he sort of did create that, so- and his job has changed as well since the beginning of the Golden Knights in 2017, to where they are right now. Still can't believe they're Stanley Cup champs, but that is the world we live in right now. And he's done phenomenal for himself. And he's a big part of a lot of cool things that that organization has done. And it was tough to lose them. But I mean, in some ways, for me, it was a real opportunity to, even more so, take the reins of the show. I'd grown a lot as a broadcaster and someone that started off with literally no experience back in the Freak days, to someone that could hold it down. And it was awesome working with Rick because I mean, Rick had a very different background than me. I mean, as much as Gary and I were sort of Ying and Yang, in some ways, it was the same thing in a different way with Rick. And the show was very different. It maybe didn't have quite the same sort of mano a mano throwdowns that Gary and I had, and were known for, but it was still great. It's still an awesome way to work. And, you know, he- he killed it. He's killing it in Vegas right now, but certainly had a big impact here when he was with the station. Matt Cundill  30:20 Did you have to fill the void of him leaving? What changes were made? Or because you were working for Bell, what changes might have been made for you? Andrew Paterson  30:29 Well, I mean, yeah, I mean, listen, like they were great. Like, they said, Hey, would you be comfortable with this guy, with this guy? I mean, you know, I did the show myself for a while and had some different guys coming in. And it just made sense. I mean, for Rick, he was doing middays and was doing the evenings, which was a crazy shift. I mean, you go in and do 11 to 1. And then you got to be at BP at 5:30, and you're done taking calls at 11:30. Like, that's- that's a real grind. So I know he wanted to sort of move up, if you will, get a better time slot, be on the top show on the station. And I knew him well enough, not from really working with each other, but just being around the station, listening, you know who the guys are. He was sort of a good straight man in a lot of ways. As much as he has a bizarre sense of humor and like a very Rick Ralphian- he says some unique things. And it was just a little different. But I welcomed it. I mean, I far rather wanted to work, post-Gary, with someone that I kind of knew what I was getting into with and- and Rick was that guy. And I mean, we kind of picked up where we left off. And I mean, I know the shows were different. But at the same time, when you look at, you know, what we're measured on, and that was the numbers. Y'know as much as people say, ahh, we miss Gary, and stuff like that, they were still listening. And we really didn't miss a beat for where we were and what we were measured on and compensated on. Tara Sands (Voiceover)  31:55 Transcription of the sound off podcast is powered by the You May Also Like podcast, the show about people, places and things. Follow the show on your favorite podcast app, or at YouMayAlsoLike.net. The Sound Off Podcast supports podcasting 2.0, so feel free to send us a boost if you're listening on a newer podcast app. If you don't have a newer podcast app, you can get one at newpodcastapps.com. Matt Cundill  32:24 February 2021, I believe, is when they pulled the plug on the radio station. Did you see it coming? Andrew Paterson  32:32 You know, I think big picture, I would have been naive if I didn't think that there was potential of that happening. Like I can tell you at that time- I mean, for years- like once Gary left, as much as I still had fun doing the show, that was at the time where all the cuts that were happening year after year sort of started to affect a lot of the things on the show. And I think probably because I was inexperienced enough in this business, and I'd never been fired, and because I was there day one and I knew how important I was to the station, like I never for a second was worried about getting whacked, which I think in retrospect is nuts. Considering how many talented people find themselves holding a pink slip at one point. But I was never really thinking like that. But I saw that it was- I don't want to call it a sinking ship. But in a lot of ways, a lot of radio was that. I wasn't expecting anything imminent or anything like that. But once it happened, and especially on the scale that it happened, with- with Winnipeg and Vancouver being, I'm pretty sure, their top two rated stations. Like that's where they were going to do it, then I mean, whatever. In retrospect, I'm glad it happened when it did, because it gave us a bigger head start to create and take advantage of the opportunity, frankly, Matt, that was pres- presented by it. But the other thing for me is that it was a really crazy time in my life. In September of 2020, I had an incident with my back where I got a rare condition, which is essentially like a heart attack or a stroke of the nervous system. I had to leave the show in the midst of a show on air because I was losing feeling below my waist. I somehow got back home, started Googling, like this is- these are the symptoms, and realized like, you need to go to the hospital right now. I went to the hospital that afternoon, had emergency surgery that night, and spent the better part of the next two, three months in the rehab hospital learning how to walk again, and was off air, and that was the first time I'd ever really been away. And of course this is during the pandemic. So I get out, I finally am able to get out, and I got out right into code red. I had to be moved into a new building that didn't have the stairs that my old place had while I was back, so it was a whole new world, and I mean I really could have been on disability, like, for a long time if I wanted, but I actually- because of what was going on, I was begging for them to let me get back into the studio. Because that was the only place you could go, like I needed some human interaction. And I mean, let's face it, the job is sitting on your ass talking about sports. I mean, we're not digging ditches. So I had to go through a whole bunch of things, like lawyers signing, doctors signing stuff off, just to allow me to end the disability and get back to the station. And six weeks later, they canceled the whole thing. So I'm happy I was able to get back and be there at the end. But everything in my life was so crazy at the time, it was just another- it just felt like another heater to the chin from fate. But in the end, it's actually turned out to be- that was a formative time. But it's led to some pretty great things. Matt Cundill  35:52 And then came the opportunity. So how long after February 9th, and maybe you'd been thinking about the opportunity beforehand. But how long after the February 9th announcement that the station was going to be closing, did you start to put the wheels into motion for a new media venture? Andrew Paterson  36:12 About 12 hours. About 12 hours, like the shock- and I had never thought about it before, just because- listen, whatever, I was the guy on the station, I was treated well, I had a really good deal, like until they didn't want me. Like as disillusioned as I got a little bit with the direction of everything, I was still pumped to be talking sports every day in my hometown. I mean, it really was a dream job. And the other thing is, if I wanted to go that route, and I'd never really thought about it more than just very casually, the bottom line is it's way different, leaving an entity that still exists, and going and starting your own thing to ostensibly compete with that, or being there from start to finish turning the lights off, like without any notice, and going through the withdrawal that so many of our regular listeners had as to where this is going on. So I knew right away that there was a big opportunity. Like we were shell shocked. And as they said, we went through that day talking to everybody, talking to the HR lady, finding out okay, this is how this all works. I got to- like, it was that same day where I figured okay, like, what- what am I going to do? I got a call the next day from Kelly Kirche in- with Sportsnet in Calgary to come out to- you know, if I'd be interested in going out there. And I said to him, I said, listen, I really appreciate the call. And I'm flattered that, you know, when this happened, you thought of me and he'd said he'd been- he'd actually apparently got my number like a month earlier, because they don't really have- it didn't have other people to kind of get into the mix. And he was looking at future moves and like PD's do, you would know about that, kind of tried to identify people. And I said, listen, I don't even know if I'm able to work right now, we got to find out how this deal works, like everything, just give me a little bit of time. And I hung up the phone that day, and about 10 minutes later, like I was saying, listen, there's two players in Canadian sports radio, there's TSN and Sportsnet. You just got whacked by TSN. Sportsnet called you. You would think that in most cases 99% of your brain would be like, Oh my God, what a great opportunity. How do I make this happen? It was the exact opposite. 1% of me was thinking, Oh, I guess that's a pretty good option to have. But I just knew that there was too much value in (a) what I had been in a huge part of building here in Winnipeg, with a big following here in Winnipeg, that would not be the same if I showed up in Calgary, or another Canadian market right off the bat. And the fact that- that told me all I needed to know, the fact that I wasn't all in on this. Oh my god, how do I make this work? That I needed to start something myself with Winnipeg Sports Talk and basically right then and there, we started doing it. And funny story. So Kelly actually followed up with me like a couple weeks later, as I'm working on all this stuff and says, so, uh, hey, where are you at? How are things going? And I said, Well, good. You know, I'm working on some stuff. And he goes, You know what, I wouldn't mind just getting you in to do some shows with Pat Steinberg, who's sort of the- is everything there. He does the Flames broadcast. Does the drive show where I did. And I said Well, hey, sure that sounds great. And I said just so you know, like, I'm- I'm starting this Winnipeg Sports Talk thing. But I'm open for anything else, like, listen, I mean, I got a lot of hours in the day, if there's- if we can work around it, for sure. And like I kind of thought at the start, when they said that, it'd be like, okay, no problem. Yeah, do your podcast but get in there. So I did a couple of shows. They loved it. They wanted to get me on more, but in the meantime, we launched Winnipeg Sports Talk, and our launch was massive. I mean, we had I think a lot of people that were pulling for me, like all the TSN insiders and Biz Nasty and Bob McKenzie. I mean, they were all promoting it. And we had such a huge start right off the bat. And again, that's something that doesn't happen if the station doesn't end the way that it did, and me pivoting, and doing it very quickly. So by the time I actually got on the Sportsnet station and had this going, they were already paying attention to the show. They knew what I was doing. And it was wild. I mean, for a while there, I was doing 1 to 3 Winnipeg time on my show, Remus would get the podcast up afterwards, I'd rip over to Daily Burger and grab a burger and then crank out 4 to 7 in Calgary remotely with Pat. So I think I had me on twice a week, guys would go on holidays, I'd do a full week here and there. So I was really busy right afterward. But I knew that the minute I got this started and we got it going, there was no way I was moving out to Calgary and doing it full time there. Frankly, I didn't trust another big company. I figure I could have gone there and then be in the same position I was just in six months ago, and miss the chance to, you know, take advantage of what TSN gave up and kind of reclaim what we built for 10 years. Matt Cundill  41:18 And post pandemic, and post the demise of Sports Radio, I'm wondering if you're not thinking to yourself, moving? That is so 2019. We don't move anymore. We can do this from home. Andrew Paterson  41:31 Well, exactly. I mean, the perfect example is- I mean, I literally did two- almost two years of shows in Calgary with guys that- I didn't even meet Pat until the draft a couple years ago, we went out for beers. It's like, dude, I've talked to you for probably a couple hundred hours in total on the air. But we've never actually been in person together. And that was just another wild thing that kind of came out of the pandemic, industry wise. But yeah, you're right, like, we really don't need to do- and the other thing is the ability. You know, for me as an independent entrepreneur, if you want to call it, I mean, someone that's doing it ourselves is taking it back. Like when I get opportunities with a sponsor to go to- Well, I went to the World Cup in Qatar last year, for instance. I do a lot of work with CoolBet they had something going and they said, Would you do your show from Doha next year? And I had literally when they asked me, I had to, like, put in Google, where is Doha? I had no idea. I'm like Qatar, and then it dawned upon me, the World Cup. I'm like, you've got to be kidding. Yeah. 100%. But I mean, like, I've done this show from big curling events, from the draft, from the World Cup in Qatar. Because really, I mean, once you have the equipment and you make sure you got a good connection, you're gold. Matt Cundill  42:49 How did you get the bulk of your audience to go from radio to the internet, to listen to your show? And I ask that because I went to a Jets game couple weeks ago, heard some guys speaking in the same sort of verbiage that you would on 1290. Talking about, you know, the second line power play, what are we gonna do with the fourth line, who's going to be on penalty kill, and I turned around and I asked them, I said, what do you guys listen to during the day when you want to talk Jets? Because the radio station's gone. And they said, well, we listen to to Andrew Paterson. That's our show. That's where we go to. Sean Murray was the person that I was speaking to. He did say some- and I will guess that he's in his late 30s, early 40s. But one of the things that struck me was, he said, I wish it was still on the radio, only the medium so that he could access it. I think that was the only thing that he mentioned that he missed. But other than that, people have no trouble finding something that they want to listen to, regardless of if it's on the radio or not. What's the difference, or the ratio, between those who will consume it on video either live or on demand, against those who will consume it on audio? Andrew Paterson  43:57 Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I mean, for the first part of the question, how did we get everybody? I mean, I give my partner Michael Remus, we were basically a two man operation, we're partners in this. I do- I mean, I'm the host of the show. I kind of do with my background a lot of the sponsorship side of things. He went to the University of YouTube and figured out how the hell to make this thing work, get it on the- on the air. The original was just to do it on a podcast, and he was the one that said, well listen, if we're doing it anyways, at this time, we may as well put it on YouTube. And I'm like, oh, yeah, whatever. Sure. Like maybe like 5 or 10 real keeners will be wanting to join us as we record this thing. I couldn't have been more wrong. But when we launched, like I did a two minute video after three weeks or whatever, we- like we needed to be ready to go and know when we were actually going to be able to start and have it legit. Like we couldn't have it come out of the gate, be amateur hour. But I put out a video and it got, I don't know, like 150,000 views or something like that. That was the thing that was being boosted by so many other people, saying that hey, we may have had the lights shut off at the station. But this is a Sports City, we're starting Winnipeg Sports Talk. And when we did that, we were already locked and loaded with our Instagram page, Twitter, whatever, TikTok, like every play. The YouTube channel was there, and essentially mean- the first thing you could do, you want to know where to find us? Subscribe to the podcast here and subscribe to our YouTube channel. Join us on the show from there. And I think we got such a good boost, but we were prepared for it. I mean, anybody that we got, there was no way they couldn't find a place to listen to us. And then I put that out on the Wednesday of the week prior to the week we started, February 9th, the station went down, our first ever show, episode one of WST was March 8th. So we got a massive bump right off the bat when we announced the thing. And like, by the time- think I put that thing out on Wednesday, join us Monday for the show. I want to say we were probably over 2000 YouTube subscribers, and more than that on the podcast before we even started up the- the first episode. You know what, it's funny, and I find myself focusing way more on the YouTube side of things. Because I mean, that's what you're looking at while you're doing it live. I mean, the YouTube side has created this incredible community, the chat. That's a big reason why we can have events and get people out and, you know, do Jets games with 60-70 people and gold eyes and all those things. So we've focused a lot, and I can tell this was a big show, the views are up, oh, we're at 3000, we're at 3500. But I sometimes lose sight of the fact that more people listen to us on the podcast than actually watch the YouTube show. So it's still- I'd say we're probably 60/40 podcast. But again, the YouTube- I think I find that the YouTube grows more, like it's catching up a little bit. Because as you get to 10,000 subscribers, and you know, you have big shows, like the discoverability of YouTube, like the people that don't know about us, that don't know me or whatever, but they're looking for Jets stuff. There's millions of people that use YouTube, and they will inevitably find us if they're looking for Winnipeg or Winnipeg Jets stuff. Whereas the podcast, in a lot of ways, we need to utilize social media and clips and stuff to try to get that out to people that might not know about us. But the podcast listenership has always been bigger. And it's always been super loyal. And we know all the people from the YouTube chat, but every single game I go to, I'll have people that come up, hey, love what you're doing, you know, I don't get in the chat. I'm always at work, whatever. But I listen every day on my way home, or in the evening, or the next day on the way to work, catch up. The podcast is still a big, big part of it. Even though it's easy to kinda get sucked into just what's happening on YouTube live every day. Matt Cundill  45:21 Yeah. And it's- you know, shame on me for trying to compare the both because they count differently. So a viewer on YouTube, I can just come in and press play or join you live, that's a one. For a download on a podcast, I've got to download at least a minute of it before that counts as a one. So that's not really, you know, equitable if we're going to be be comparing. And the other one is, you know, listening, people like to listen, they can do something else. YouTube is moving in the direction of being able to do that. If you're doing your show live, I can carry you around in my pocket. And, you know, listen to it, perhaps on YouTube, as you know, now the app is becoming a little bit more easier to consume live content with. Andrew Paterson  48:52 Well, absolutely. And we do find people- like we've- there's been some fun things that we've sort of started, and probably the most popular one is we do a marble race at the end of every show on Friday. So Remus has figured out a way to put some command in, and if you're with us on YouTube, you put in exclamation mark marbles. We leave it open for 10 minutes, I'll finish up with Hacksaw or whatever we're doing. And then we have this marble race. So anyone on YouTube that put in exclamation mark marbles, gets a marble. So like for instance, Friday's show, we had like 275 marbles, and there's a program called Marbles on Stream that, you know, essentially everyone's got their name, it's got the name above it. We kind of do some fun commentary. And whoever wins, we give them a Winnipeg Sports Talk hoodie. But it has gotten so popular, and people like, plan their Fridays around it. That we'll have people checking in on the marble race on holidays in Mexico, and we've got guys- you'd like- I'll never forget. A dude had his wife text in, she goes, I can't believe this is happening. They're having a nice romantic dinner in Paris. With the time difference, it's like 10 o'clock there. And it's a picture of him watching the marble race from the table in their spots. So there's so many things we can do with YouTube, the portability of it is great. And I guess I'm not too familiar with the YouTube Premium, where I think you can- if you want to just listen to what's going on, you can do that. And I think some people do that. But I mean, we're still learning stuff all the time about, you know, what is possible, whether it be through podcasting, or through the YouTube channel, as we continue to grow. And I don't think that's going to change anytime soon because, as you know, probably better than anyone, Matt, being- doing this as long as you have, things do change, new things are available to people. And if you jump in on that, there can be some big, big benefits. Matt Cundill  50:51 What do you use to stream? Andrew Paterson  50:53 We use OBS Ninja. Matt Cundill  50:55 It goes out to Twitter, too, right? Andrew Paterson  50:57 No, no, we don't- we don't put it on Twitter. We kind of try to drive people to the YouTube channel. Like I don't really think that like- we obviously have a big Twitter presence. But I don't think- well, I'll put it this way. I don't know. It's never really seemed like there's a huge benefit to have it there. Like I'm not sure how that's measured, how it would count. Matt Cundill  51:16 I mean, if YouTube's paying you money, let YouTube pay you money. Right? Andrew Paterson  51:20 Exactly. At the end of the day, I mean, that's a good way to- to put it. But yeah, we use OBS Ninja. And that is from like Remus, before- like towards the end of the TSN days, he was getting involved in- in some streaming. So he was kind of learning that- learning the OBS program, playing like NHL Hockey at night, you know, you'd have 20, 25 people in watching him play, getting people in at his own little community there. So he knew that. So when he had to basically learn everything, I think he was looking for something that was similar to it. But the Ninja program is wild because I think it's a guy that just basically took OBS, tweaked it and built this. And every time over the last three years we've had an issue with some glitch or something like that, like he literally sends a message to the guy that built the thing. And 10 minutes later, he's got the thing back and done it. So God bless whoever it was that made that program. But it's great for us. I mean, there's all sorts of different streaming options. But this one, we started off with it. It's worked great for us. And now, you know, you've got someone, not me, but Remus behind the scenes that has worked with it for so long that knows it so well. I mean the ability to produce content even as- just as a two-man operation, continues to get better. Matt Cundill  52:43 So as we are doing this, there's a video component to this. You've got your Chiefs shirt on, I've got my Bills hat on. Chiefs Bills every year all the time. They never play at Orchard Park, they'll probably play again this year. If they go- both go to the playoffs, they'll play again in Arrowhead. I believe next year, they'll probably move the game to Buffalo, I think, is what's due up next on the schedule. But for Winnipeg sports fans, I mean, your audience, whether it is on the radio, or it's as it is now online, what is the pecking order for what they like to listen to? So you're going to talk Jets, Jets would be one. That intersects often with NFL, when can you talk about that? The Bombers are obviously important for you know, some of the warmer months, that's going to be an easy one because there's not a lot of other sports going on. But how do you weave in stuff outside of the Jets, whether it's in season or out of the season? Andrew Paterson  53:37 You know what, to me, it's not a lot different than I ever did, you know, back on 1290. I mean, you know, we- you know when you're coming to our station or our show, you know, the Jets stuff- I mean, that is the biggest driver. I mean, when the team's quiet, or in August when there's nothing going on, that's the slowest time of the year. Training camp comes up- even right now the team's on a four game heater. You see the numbers go up everyday, people are all fired up. Team gets waxed one night, and everyone's depressed and doesn't want to hear about how shitty they played the night before? Slower show. So I mean, there's no doubt that the Jets are the number one driver for us, and the Bombers are absolutely as well. And listen, the success that they've had, how they've grown their fan base, new people getting involved, and how great CFL players are to deal with and get on the show, has always been big. And that would be a solid number two. We still do try to mix in other local stuff. I mean, people aren't living and dying with the Goldeyes each and every day. But there's great characters. It's fun to have those guys on. We had a lot of fun with the Sea Bears last year when we have time. So I mean that will always be our priority. But again, like we've got two, two and a half hours of content every day. I mean like you said before, we can only talk about who the sixth defenseman is in the upcoming game, then the options for the coach, for so long. I mean, in a lot of ways, we'll give them that information. If people in the chat want to debate each other for an hour, have at 'er. But I kind of try to move away from the exact same thing about the exact same game. And listen, these people are sports fans, like just this week- I mean, obviously, we came in, everyone wanted to talk about the Otani Jays fiasco. And the media component of all of that. We've touched on that for the last couple days, and listen, the NFL- whether some people are CFL purists and don't want anything to do with it, and some people shit on the CFL. And ahh, I just like the NFL. I mean, at the end of the day, I'm a football fan. I love it all. So I want to talk about it. Like, for the most part, and I- and maybe this is part of the reason why I've been successful, but why it never really feels that much like work, is that a lot of the programming of what we're doing is pretty much an authentic reflection of what I'd be talking about with you if we were posted up at the wood at the Wind City, or BP or wherever. And I think that comes out. Like in the summer, we're going to talk the Jays quite a bit, especially when exciting things are happening. The NFL, we'll start with the Winnipeg stuff and make sure we cover it as well, and hopefully better than anybody else does. There's always time for the other big sports stories that that we've always been talking about. Matt Cundill  56:33 Yeah, and with the apple and Spotify data, you can see where people fast forward through. So yeah, excellent. I don't think there'd be any competition of other media trying to say, oh, you can't have that guest, you're not a rights holder, blah, blah, blah, because there's really no other radio competition going on right now. So I don't think anybody would- I remember in the- Listen, we used to do that to you at Freak 107, we would block artists and guests from going over to your radio station. But for the most part, I don't think that exists anymore, right? Not Andrew Paterson  57:02 Not really, like y'know, CJOB obviously is a big station and the rights holder. So at the start, I think they were maybe a little skeptical about like, okay, what- how is this going to affect us? Basically, I mean, that's kind of a question you always have to ask. I mean, the last few years, they've ended up having me on the pregame shows as- as you know- and I mean, you know, it's one of those things where, like, always like, hey, you come and do this for us. We're not gonna cut you a check. But I mean, it's great exposure. And I mean, Kelly Moore has always been very, very gracious with putting us over and letting people know where they can get it. And I mean, it's a great- because I do often get- like for people that have somehow missed that we started this up and what we're doing, I do occasionally get people going, hey, I heard you on the on the pregame show. That's awesome. Like, what is this thing that you're doing right now? And even when you have your biggest shows, there's still more people that don't know about it. So the more you can connect with people, and let them know how they can subscribe, how they can- they can check out the Daily Show, the better. So, but yeah, to your question. No. I mean- and I mean, listen, the Jets know that- and again, like, there's some people that will be- I'm Johnny talk show host. And I'm, you know, Mr. Neutrality. I've always been this way. I'm not a big J journo. I'm a Winnipeg guy that loves talking sports, that does it well. And I'll wear my heart on my sleeve. And when the Jets have a great game, I'll come in and I'm fired up like the people that I'm talking to are, and when they play like garbage, or Kyle Connor gets hurt, I'll be in with the same worries that everybody else has. And that to me, Matt, just comes down to trying to be authentic. Because I think in this sort of thing, if you're trying to be something that you aren't, people find out pretty quickly. And I don't know about you, but when I'm talking to someone, or they're talking to me, if I think I'm getting snowed or B.S.'d, I'm not that interested anymore. Matt Cundill  59:04 Has anybody tried to buy you? Andrew Paterson  59:06 Yeah. Matt Cundill  59:06 And why did you say no to (edit)? Andrew Paterson  59:07 Because I didn't really trust that everything would be maybe as it was being presented. I've seen too many things working. And I mean, listen, I basically went through this before, I just told you, I mean, like we went through a couple years where all of a sudden Bell came back to us and said, listen, we needed- we need to change this deal. You know, the terms were pretty good. But there was a bunch of things that we had started ourselves. We got a sponsor, and we went to the Super Bowl every year. Well, great. If you guys are gonna buy us and we're gonna go in. We're not taking a step back there. We're going to do our Jets trip every year. We're going to do the Super Bowl. We're going to do these things that we had established ourself. Yep, no problem, that's all in the deal. Well, you know what happened to that after a year or two. And I felt terrible. I mean, I know it wasn't my boss that was trying to BS us or lie or anything like that. But people above them didn't care, really. And what are we going to do, get into litigation like with them? I mean, it's just- it's a terrible position to be as an employee. So to be able to have come back to kind of where we started and own it ourself, have the success that we're having, there would have needed to be a really, really big upside to turn it over to somebody else. And the other thing that I did not have the confidence with, like, I think a lot of the sponsors that are with us, that have been with us from day one, or have come on before, like, they're obviously wanting to be a part of the show and get the word out. But it's also sort of an investment in me. They know that I will deliver their message, because I care. It's not like in radio where it goes through five different people, and sometimes the person reading the liner couldn't give a damn. Like, I'm personally invested in it, I want it to work for them, I want them to continue working with us, and that's been the key, why we've had so many people stay on with us, our approaching three years, I did not have the confidence that if all of a sudden, okay, fine, I'll just be doing the show. This is the deal. And you know, Johnny Salesman in Calgary is contacting people, like, I didn't have the confidence that that would probably work. And I also didn't think that maybe a lot of the people that I had been dealing with before, would maybe be in for the long haul, if that was a way. So we've got great relationships, we've been successful beyond what we could have expected, we continue to grow it- like unless there's a really good reason to turn it over to somebody else, I- you know, and this wasn't really a long discussion with myself and Remus, and, you know, they came back to us at the draft again last year, you know, after we'd grown more and wanted to it, but and I've got no ill will, I mean, it was flattering that they wanted to do it. But like with anything, I think that if you are going to create something yourself that you are so passionate about, and turn it over to someone else, you gotta be pretty damn sure that it's going to be better, it will help it forward. And I just didn't think that that was the case. Like I don't rule it out at some point down the road. But I mean, we just figured we still have so much more to grow. Why would we do it now? And things are going great. And we want to just continue on the- on the path that we've been taking. Matt Cundill  1:00:13 So 2024, you got this company, and how many employees you have? Just the one with Michael? Andrew Paterson  1:02:30 Just the one with Michael, we do have someone that we connected with as an intern through a program, Connor Rabchak, very talented young guy that I think is a lot of ways sort of the future of what we're doing. And sort of we worked it out that you know, kind of he'll do his thing, all the stuff that you need to do for school up until 2023. And we will definitely have a spot for him in 2024, potentially working with us on the Daily Show. He's putting out a Jets This Week right now that he does on Sunday night, that's ready for people to listen to in the morning. But really the next step for us is adding some additional programming around the flagship show, the Winnipeg Sports Talk daily that I'm hosting. So I mean, we're gonna have a couple of weekly things with a couple people that will- you know, again, won't be on every day, like my show is. But people will like, it'll be very connected, you know, and we'll have it on the channel there. And, you know, I'm really tight with Dustin Nielsen, I do the Lock Shop with him every day. The Edmonton guys just went through this last summer. And they know they've sort of kind of used our model to start Edmonton Sports Talk there. And a little bit- I mean, (a) he had two years to see us do this and kind of see what we were doing. It also happened at a time where they have a really talented producer, his partner, Tom Ghazola. So they're doing more progr- they start it off in the morning, at six to nine, they do the Nielsen show. And that would sort of be like their version of my show. That's their big show, but it's a morning show. Then they do the Hangout, then Dusty and I connect on the Lock Shop. And I think what will probably be- we will take that from being just on Edmonton Sports Talk to being on both of our channels. That leads into Winnipeg Sports Talk, and then adding some more programming around it. Because I mean, I think we've got a blueprint, we've got a continually growing audience, a very, very loyal bunch of listeners and viewers. I think we're finding out that there's definitely an appetite to be connected with good quality, local content for local businesses. So there's a nice potential to kind of grow both the involvement we have financially with partners and new partners, as well as get a few more people involved, even if it's not every single day. Matt Cundill  1:04:52 And one of the things you're really good at is relationships. I don't think you can do anything in Winnipeg without relationships. At least when I first moved here within my first week Garth Bushko, who is the general manager at CJOB, told me that. That the city is built on relationships. And you pointed out that, you know, if your company went elsewhere, those relationships would be at risk. And you know, you're a couple of years in here. So year three is always a big one for any company. And I see- isn't it exciting, though, to be talking about growth instead of cuts? Andrew Paterson  1:05:24 You know what, it's- Again, we don't really have anything to cut. We- we've been running a pretty short bench since we started. To use the analogy. But it is for sure. Like to go from, like, the last few years where it was just sort of like, you- you see these terrible indications, you see good, talented people getting shown the door, you see a company that really didn't seem to give a bleep about what we were doing. It's a hell of a lot different to be able to kind of create something, see it grow, and know that, I mean, it's not for somebody else, it's ours. And, you know, in that way as being so tied into this market, it's another reason why it didn't make sense to have people outside doing it. No one is going to be able to sell this better than me, no one is going to be able to, you know, create that connection with the people that are advertising with us, than the guy that's delivering it. You know, you make that relationship, you connect it, you deliver on what you're doing. You got a pretty good recipe for a long term- a long term success on a single relationship level. And if you do that, I mean, you know, you can think about growing into more programming, because you've got your other bases covered first. Matt Cundill  1:06:44 Hustler, thank you so much for doing this. Andrew Paterson  1:06:46 Hey, Matt, this was a lot of fun. I appreciate you. Matt Cundill  1:06:48 Go Bills. Andrew Paterson  1:06:49 Booooo. Tara Sands (Voiceover)  1:06:50 The Sound Off Podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski. Edited by Chloe Emond-Lane. Social media by Aidan Glassey. Another great creation from the Sound Off Media Company. There's always more at soundoffpodcast.com.

Chestnuts roasting on an open fire... And us roasting a bunch of jerks! Welcome to the 8th annual Very Terry Christmas. If it's your first time, the Very Terry Christmas is a special episode where Matt is joined by Terry Dimonte, his longtime pal, to get into the holiday spirit and "reminisce" (i.e. complain) about the year's goings-on. Fair warning: this episode is tagged as Explicit already, but the guys go a little overboard. As Matt says in the intro, do not listen to this episode if your little elves or Mrs. Claus are around! Otherwise, grab some egg nog (with or without rum), settle in by the fire, and enjoy. We also made good mention of Terry's conversation with the Prime Minister of Canada, Justin Trudeau: TRANSCRIPTION Matt Cundill  00:02 Merry Christmas, and welcome to the eighth installment of a very Terry Christmas every year Terry DiMonte, and I get together to record an episode just in time for your ears on Christmas. A few things before we start. First, good morning to Elie Khouri who is always the first to download this episode. That's an advantage you get when you wake up early in the morning and listen in Europe. Second, a word of warning. We swear a lot in this episode, at least 15 times. So if you're listening to this during the 12 days of Christmas, do not listen to it with the volume within earshot of little elves or Mrs. Claus. And if you're sensitive to the bad words, you might want to wait till New Year's to listen to this. Finally, Terry's just recorded his annual talk with the Prime Minister of Canada, Justin Trudeau. And we're going to be talking about that a fair bit in this show. But if you'd like to check out that fun conversation, the YouTube link is in the show notes. And with that, here we go. Terry DiMonte joins me from beautiful British Columbia. Terry Dimonte  01:04 I'm beginning to feel like my old self again. Matt Cundill  01:06 What doesthat mean? You're beginning to feel like your old self again? Have you been through something? Terry Dimonte  01:13 While I'm laughing because, Oh, I see you push record, you know, and well, a lot of people who follow me on social media know but my, my close friends and family really know what I've been through. I had open heart surgery on my 65th birthday. This past year on January the third and the operation itself went swimmingly well, and then it stopped going swimmingly? Well, I, I came out of a six hour operation to replace my valve and have a bypass. And I was sitting up and everything was going well. And then everything went off the tracks, I got blood clots, I got a blood infection, I had to be intubated and re intubated. I was on life support for about 16 days and hovering between life and death. My brother flew out from Ottawa because his background is in in medicine, he's Oh, he was a helicopter paramedic, and he knew was quite dire, he flew out to be by my wife side, my wife was at the hospital every day, you know, with fingers crossed, walking up the hallway to the cardiac ICU, hoping that she would get some good news. And for days on end, she didn't, there was either no change or was more dangerous. Anyway, not the Woe is me. Because I came out of it, I get very, very lucky plus, I had the help of my wife, Jess, who was my advocate, and was able to communicate with staff there and steer them away from theories that they had, as I lay unconscious, and I guess I don't know, around the the 22nd or 23rd day mark, I don't know because I was asleep and or in, you know, on life support my started to come out of it. And and then I couldn't talk for days on end because of the thing in my throat. And, and then it turned, it started to turn, I began to get to come out of it, they were able to take the tubes out and they were able to take my feeding tube out. And it was pretty bad. It was really shitty, not for me. I mean, it wasn't any fun for me. But it was really, really bad on my wife, Jessica. And you know, my family and other people like yourself that were following along on a daily basis, wondering if I was going to come out of it. So and one of the things you don't realize that when you're in bed for 35 days, your legs stop work and everything stops, stops working. The good news is you've lost 30 some odd pounds because of the feeding tube. The bad news is none of your muscles work anymore. And there's that moment where the nurse says okay, I want you to put your feet on the floor and walk to that chair, which was like three feet across the room. And I put my feet on the floor. I can only describe my my legs felt like a couple of Twizzlers that we're not going to hold me up. So you know and you come out of open heart surgery open heart surgery as my my surgeon and describe to me it's kind of like being hit by a truck. You know, the crack your chest open, they go digging around in there and then you have complications. And then you know, you lie in bed for 30 days and you think okay, I'm out of the hospital, but February, March, April, May, I was just really stunned by how weak I was. And now here as we record this in December, I love that we're doing this by the way, it always feels so Christmassy when you call me. It's coming up on a year and I'm starting to feel like my old self again. My scars still hurts. My legs aren't I wouldn't say 100% back but I'm working on it. So and obviously I'm grateful to be on the right side of the potatoes as Ted would say. It Matt Cundill  04:59 was a little bit weird. Last year when we had our Christmas talk, and yeah, we didn't talk about you and your upcoming surgery. At the time we made, it's really weird. Like, we talk so openly all the time on this particular episode. And we couldn't talk about that. It was about a little over a week later, you went into the hospital, it was your birthday. Terry Dimonte  05:21 I didn't want to talk about it. And neither did just we didn't want to talk about it publicly. We didn't want to tempt fate. You know, I didn't want there to be video of me talking about my surgery after I was gone. You know, like we it just, it felt weird. It was personal. And anybody who's been in the same situation will relate to this. I got diagnosed in August of last year. And in August, the cardiac people at Vancouver general hospital said your valve is done. We've got to go in and change it. And someone will call you and give you the details. August, September, October, finally, the phone rings in October, and they ask you a bunch of questions. And then they say, we'll call you back when we got a date, October, November, December. And all that while I didn't realize this, but just told me I was getting grayer. And my breathing was getting a little bit more labored. labored. Thank you. That was the word I was looking for. And she was scared and she didn't tell me about it. And obviously, all the doctors will tell you open heart surgery very routine. Well, yes. If you're a cardiac surgeon, it's very routine. But if you're a person who's you know, a morning, man, it's just unbelievably shit inducing, scary, you know, you you lie awake at night, I Googled everything I could find out about surgery and recovery and questions to ask. And every day I was on YouTube, I was driving just crazy. And, you know, when we finally got the date, and they told that told us was gonna be January 3, last Christmas, this time last year, we knew that in a week and a bit, I was going under the knife, and they were going to crack my chest open. And we tried to pretend everything was normal, but it wasn't and, and it was a it was, you know, there was a cloud over the house with me and her. And we didn't want to talk about that publicly, we thought, you know, we'll just we'll keep this to ourselves. And she said, You know, when you're out and and you know, it's gone? Well, and you know, then then we'll we'll put a post up about where you've been, and just told me that, you know, I mean, I'm not on the air anymore. So, you know, it's not like I have a public following. But there are some people that follow me on social media, and I do post a fair amount of stuff. And there's a podcast and, and Jess told me about 2526 days in, you know, there were some like, where's Terry? Why, why hasn't he posted in a while? Is he okay? And she started to get texts from people. And you know, and she didn't want to talk about it, obviously, because she was just overwhelmed with fear and worry. And I had no idea about the the level of that fear. Until I think it was late March, when I was well enough to get around Jess and I wanted to thank the nurses in the cardiac ICU at Vancouver General Hospital, who were unbelievable the staffs there, and the care I got was spec tacular. And that's the reason why I'm alive today. And we wanted to do something and we found out that the you know, the ICU nurse, nursing station, you know, they're at your bedside 24/7 There's one nurse, one patient 24/7 and their coffee machine was out. So I said, Let's Let's go buy them a coffee machine and go visit them and I'll be able to say thank you to them. And in Vancouver General Hospital, there's this long corridor, and I mean long corridor with nothing on the walls. It looked like a corridor from a Stanley Kubrick film. And we came around the corner and I don't remember that quarter because I was at the end of it in the bed. We came around the corner and just said, Hang on, I have to stop. And she began to tear up and put her hand on the wall. And I realized what she went through every day. She said, You know every day, I made this walk and when you get to the door of the ICU, there's a phone and you pick it up and you say hi, it's Jessica. I'm here to see Terry. And she said some nights they would say to her some days they would say to her, you have to come back in 10 minutes, and they wouldn't tell her why they wouldn't tell her what was going on. And that phone well that opened the door opened the door to whatever the news of the day was so she would drive to the hospital and not know what condition I was in and sleep at the phone next to her ear at night. When she could get some sleep, hoping it wasn't going to ring because if it rang wouldn't have been good news, and, and, you know, just that whole sort of trauma of going through that. I was, I was in the bed with a breathing tube in it, but it was it was it was my wife Jess that helped save my life and, and took it on the chin. So we didn't we didn't think it was a good idea to talk about it publicly. Until she decided when she decided, you know, we're gonna let everybody know you're okay. Then Then I said, Yeah, you You go ahead. You Matt Cundill  10:32 had a few visitors. You mentioned Dean who flew it from Ottawa. Yeah. And as well, the prime minister came to visit you. Yeah. Do you? Do you remember him being in the room and holding your hand? Terry Dimonte  10:43 I do. I really do. Because it was quite moving. To give you an idea of, of where my head was at. I apparently said to Jess after he left is the boat gone. And in my head, I had it that there was a secret backdoor on the water that the prime minister came by boat and came up to secret backstairs first of all, the Vancouver General Hospital is not anywhere near the water, number one. And number two, there is no, there is no boaters Prime Minister. So that gives you an idea where my head was at. But having said that, he checked in with Jess almost every day via text to see how he was doing. And then he had an events in Vancouver. And he texted us and said can I come? You know, is it okay if I visit and you know, it's close, close friends and family only. And we have no family out here. You know, we don't have any family and when are very many friends. To be honest with you. We have one set of friends here and just said, you know, she had to tell the staff that there was going to be an RCMP guy calling because I was going to have a visitor that had RCMP protection. She didn't want to she didn't want to make a fuss, he didn't want to make a fuss. Anyway, long story short, he he came in, and he's the Prime Minister of the country, so you know, love him or hate him. And I know there's a lot of a lot of love on on one side and a lot of hate on the other people are still excited when they see the Prime Minister. That's that's just the way it goes. Most people anyway, except for the, you know, handful of raging assholes we now have in the country. And he came in and if the back door created as minimal of fuss as he could, he didn't want to disturb anybody. And he pulled up a chair. And he grabbed my hand. And Jess was behind him. And he was talking to Jess, but Maddie, he held my hand for like, almost two hours. And he didn't move. And he's got a pretty big job. So I found that incredibly, you know, when when when the dust fall cleared, I found that incredibly moving. And I've said to a couple of people on a couple of occasions. That's a demonstration of who that man is. He's been my friend for a very, very long time. And he has a pretty big job. And he said, No, tonight, I'm going to visit a friend of mine who's in the hospital battling his life. And he jokingly said to me on the on the interview this year that he enjoyed it because he visited me when I couldn't talk so he couldn't get it. But he did he he held my hand and talked to me about things that we had done, stuffs that he was doing and his kids. And, you know, he was kind to Jess and calmed her down and, you know, leaned into me when he was leaving and said, you got this you have to fight. There's a lot of people waiting for you. We've got an interview to do this year. I just I can't even describe what it meant to me. You know, because of the circumstances. You know, listen, there are a lot of people that I love dearly. yourself included. Other people in the east in Toronto and Montreal and Ottawa. People have lives, they can't jump on airplanes, and you know, and book hotels and come to sit by my bedside with a breathing tube in my throat. I didn't expect any of that. But I also didn't expect the Prime Minister of Canada to take time from what is a non stop schedule to come and comfort me and my wife. And you know, still myself this year at the end of the Christmas chat. The Prime Minister is somebody who doesn't take a compliment. Well, you can't, you know, you try and put praise his way and he gets all uncomfortable. And I grabbed his arm and I said listen, I know you don't like to hear this, but you're going to hear it. And I just want you to know that it meant the world to me and my wife. It really did. It was special and it's a memory I'll hold with me till the day I die. He said had a busy year. I would say Yeah, always has a busy year. I'm just Matt Cundill  14:54 thinking to myself about you've got this great show that you do with him every year and then you You want to go and distribute it and put it out. But you can't share the link because it's on Facebook and it's news. It's great. It's like cotton his own legislation. Yeah, Terry Dimonte  15:11 it really it was ironic because the Toronto Star approached me this year as Susan Delacorte, who I love dearly, I have a lot of respect for Susan. And the way she covers politics and her columns, I really, really enjoy her writing. And we've never met face to face, but we've had many conversations via email on on the phone. And she reached out this year, and she said, you know, are you are you chatting with the Prime Minister this year? And one of the things that, as always, really also meant the world to me is they reach out to me the PMO gets in touch with me every year to say, so are we on? Let's Yeah, it's you know, you guys have the busy schedule, you let me know when you're going to be around and Susan asked me what was happening and long story short, it's on the Toronto Star platform. And I had two requests of the star I said, number one, it can't be behind a paywall. And number two, the Prime Minister wants it out before Christmas, because the last time I dealt with the star, they held it until after Christmas. And he wasn't pleased about that. Because he, you know, he likes the Christmas vibe of the chat. So they said, Yeah, absolutely. So it's not behind a paywall, and it's up in the Toronto Star website. It's up on my YouTube channel. And I put links up on my Twitter. Twitter's fun when you talk to the Prime Minister. That's another story. And I couldn't post it on Facebook. Because it was it was the link was on the Toronto Star. So it was kind of ironic that that legislation kept me from spreading the word and putting the link up on Facebook or Instagram. For that matter. I, you know, I had to do a little post saying, if you're looking for it, you know, I posted a picture of me, the Prime Minister and my wife. And I said, you know, if you're looking for it, this is where you can find it. Because, you know, I couldn't post it because as you point out, the legislation prevented that. Well, not the legislation. But Facebook's position. Matt Cundill  17:03 Yeah, exactly. I'm sure you've had lots of hate, you've actually took time to address your hate, or the hate that you've been receiving just for having him on your show, being your friend. And you've pointed out time and time again, that you don't even agree with a lot of the things he does some of the things he does, but it doesn't stop a friendship. And I mentioned this because I got a note too, because I promoted the podcast we did. And somebody I guess when they were through with you decided to send me a note to talk about you a little bit more. And I wrote back to them, and I answered them exactly the way you would expect me to answer them, Terry? Yeah, Terry Dimonte  17:41 thank you, Matthew. Matt Cundill  17:42 I know it's Christmas morning. Yes, but I told them to take a long hard suck on my cock. Terry Dimonte  17:49 Merry Christmas, everybody. Oh, God, I you know, I just, I give up i You know, every year I started the conversation with the loved ones. This year, I used a Walter Cronkite references of Jesus Christ, it could use an older reference. And I was trying to say, not a journalist. This is not a an interview piece. If you're looking for that the Toronto Star is going to do one in January the CBC will be all over him that he's going to do all kinds of rear Enders. And they will question him on things like the climate and and his Palestinian position and all of those things, many of which I don't agree with. And if we were at Ziggy's and having a beer, I would say to him, What is your deal with this? Like, why do you think that's going to work? And he would say, as he said to me for over 30 years, okay, now, look, here's why this is this and that. And I must admit, he's turned me around on a couple of things. And a couple of things I think he's full of shit on. And I would tell him that, but that's not the place for it. The place for that is in a private conversation between two friends. I'm not there to take him to task. I'm catching up with my pal, when your pal has a job like that. Listen, if you have a friend who is the CEO of Air Canada, or runs a big oil company in Alberta, or is the president of the goddamn BC Ferries out here, you know, those people don't have a lot of time. They have jobs that require them to leave the office or the house, you know, at seven in the morning and often aren't back until eight o'clock at night and then when they get home at eight o'clock at night. After they have a quick bite with the kids. Then they open their files and do some studying for the next day. You know, being Prime Minister, whether you like him or not, it's a big job and he doesn't have a lot of time every minute of his day is scheduled when they contact me. Like they did. They said the prime minister will be at the Fairmont Hotel, and you have an hour starting at 215. That's it, because he had something at 330. And he had something in the morning. And the motorcade dropped him off. He went upstairs, he changed. He came back downstairs, he sat with me for an hour, he took a picture. He gave me a hug and kiss my wife goodbye, he went back upstairs, he changed. And as we were going out the door, he was getting in the motorcade to go to surgery to meet with, I don't know who but he was meeting with people, he had meetings all day. And then he was getting on the plane the next morning to get home to see if he could spend a moment or two with his kids. Before he had more meetings, blah, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, all of that to say, you know, this hour that I get with him at Christmas, I'm extremely grateful for, and I want to know shit about my buddy's gig. I don't want to talk to him about his position at the UN. I don't want to talk to him about, you know, his environment minister and the environment Minister's wacky ideas? Because I you know, I don't agree with everything. I don't want to talk to him about the pipelines and the convoys. I don't want to talk about any of that shit. I want to know, is Joe Biden nice? What's the plane? Like? Who puts files on your desks? Are you the boss? Do you have arguments with your ministers? Is there anybody who's pissed you off this year? One year, I asked him, What, what's the world leader with the worst breath? You know, these are the kinds of things I get excoriated for. But this is the shit I want to know. Like, you know, if you're your pal, you know, you have a friend who's a rock star, or who suddenly becomes the Transport Minister, or adjunct to the prime minister in Britain, or is used to be the Queen's Butler. Don't you want to know ship with that? Aren't you curious about what that job entails? I am. Like I said, Don't do you have milk in the fridge? What do you do about groceries? And he said, You're not going to believe this. But I'd like to go to Canadian Tire on Saturday. And of course, he's being excoriated for that bullshit. He doesn't go to Canadian tech. Those are the things that I want to know. I want to know, do the kids have social media? Have they seen the fuck Trudeau flags? Like, you know, that's the stuff that I want to know. So we can catch up. So I can tell him? I think about him all the time. You know, he was here. You know, I think it was October or November. And he was having dinner in a restaurant that he loves, in Vancouver. A rare occasion to get away for a couple of hours and have restaurant his grandparents lived out here. So he has, you know, family and friends out here. And he went to the restaurant and protesters barge their way into the restaurant and surrounded his table didn't surround his table because the security people won't let that happen. But they barged into the restaurant. And they're screaming and yelling, you know, they're screaming their slogans and yelling and flying flags in his face. He's trying to have dinner. Now, you can say he's a public figure. He's the Prime Minister, you know, he has to expect that people are going to protest. And he does. And I agree with it. People should be allowed to protest and tell him they disagree with him. But do you have to behave like assholes? Is there no respect or decency anymore? Could you not stand on the sidewalk and wait for him to come out and call him a piece of shit. So he had to get up from the table. And he went around to each one of the diners in the restaurant to apologize. And said, I'm very sorry, I'm sorry, I brought this and to ruin your I didn't mean to ruin your evening, please enjoy the rest of your dinner. I'm going to be leaving now. And he did that to every table in the restaurant. And he left. And of course, he's surrounded by increasing security because, you know, people are unhinged these days. And I thought to myself, Jesus Christ, so I texted him right away. And I said, are you okay? Because that's the way we communicate. We communicate by text. And I said, pal, are you okay? And he said, Yeah, yeah, it's, you know, it's just protesters. I'm fine. My, you know, I'm being looked after I'm fine. Don't worry about a TD. But I do. You know, I do. He doesn't talk about it. And nobody in his office will talk about it. But let's just say I notice, there's a couple of extra men around when he's when he travels now. And listen, we're Canadians. I don't you know, I don't expect people to behave like they're behaving, but they are behaving like that. And when someone throws pebbles at you and calls your wife a whore, I don't know how you keep your patients. So I love this guy. I've been friends with him for a long time. And we like to have a Christmas catch up. And when We do. And I asked him the questions that I want to know about, like, stupid things like, does he have milk in the fridge? Because I'm not working for 60 minutes, I want to catch up with my pal and I want people to have an insight as to what it's like to be the Prime Minister of Canada. And and how do you handle it? When your kids have to go to school every day, and other kids are telling them, my dad says Your dad is a piece of shit. You know, that's a difficult thing to live with. Those are the things that I want to know. And that's what the chat is all about. And despite the fact that every year I'd say that at the beginning of the chat, I get all kinds of maddening. You know, if they're not maddening, because I don't give a shit anymore. You know, people are cray cray, and there's nothing you can do about it. And they're unhinged, and they don't think about him. You know, they call him just on my Twitter feed today, they call them scum. You know, one woman on Instagram said to me, to call him Your friend is a slap in the face to Canadians. Matt Cundill  26:06 The sound off podcast with Matt Cundill. Okay, so that leads to the next question. And I know you don't know the answer. But I'm going to ask it anyway. How does somebody get to that point in their life, where they believe that one man has the power to create some sort of havoc or problem in their life that they are acting out in this particular way? Because I'm a poli sci major. I know how politics works, you'd make it sound like he was an autocrat. It just doesn't work that way. I can't see. And by the way, like you go, if I walked through the trucker convoy a couple of years ago, and you ask, why are you here to 100 people, you will get 100 different answers. So what the fuck is wrong with people? Terry Dimonte  26:57 I really don't know. I, you know, as a matter of fact, it's that's the way, you know, my question to him about ministers. I prefaced it by saying, a lot of people think you're an emperor, you know, that. He's sitting at his desk making decisions that affects their daily lives. That's not the way a parliamentary democracy works. And I asked him, I, you know, about the winds of the right wing blowing up from down south and the anger. And, you know, he said, there are people struggling, and they're angry, and it's okay, that they're angry with me, and I want to stick around and try and make a difference. My personal opinion is, it's social media, social media has made for example, I'll say it on this podcast. I disagree with the country's position on the Palestinian conflict. I am pro Israeli full stop. And I don't want to, you know, I don't want to hear it. And I think there's a lot of people, whether it's me to Black Lives Matter, you know, the other social causes that that people became involved with, I think the majority of people were heartfelt, and the majority of people think they're on the right side, and they want to do the right thing. And it's what they believe, you know, I saw a picture. And I'm sure a lot of people have seen hit of the library at Harvard. And sitting in the library at Harvard was mostly young, white women, American women, I'm assuming for the most part, with a big hand painted sign at the back of the library that said, stop the genocide. And all of the women were wearing to the Palestinian scarf around their neck. And I thought to myself, Okay, your suburban 19 year old from Connecticut, who's in Harvard? Really? Really? That's, that's your fashion accessory? Really, you really, you know, you really believe that same thing with, you know, queers for Palestine. Have you not read that they will fling you off the building, if they find you having sex with somebody of the same sex? Matt Cundill  29:03 You'd be the first to go, by the way if you went there? Yeah. So Terry Dimonte  29:07 these are the things that I look at. And I think, Okay, well, why, like what's going on? And I think it's social media. And it becomes a tsunami of things that people think they need to do they have to do, and they get all ginned up, and leaders gin them up, you know, political leaders, you know, social leaders, you know, municipal leaders, they gin their crowds up for their own political cause. And they get these people wound up. So that's what happened with vaccinations and the convoy and the conservatives. And the climate pledges that the Liberals have made and other things that have made people angry the carbon tax inflation. Everybody thought the Prime Minister was doing an amazing job when COVID first hit and people forgot that. And then to push a political agenda, people got behind the, you know, the anti Vax thing and the convoy thing and he becomes the enemy. He becomes all the tropes that they drag out about, you know, he was only a teacher and he doesn't know anything. And he's stupid. And he had a silver spoon in his mouth and other things that I know aren't true. You're talking about a kid who came from privilege, but was never coddled, his father wouldn't put up with it. And a kid who was raised to be home at the dinner table, every single day, his father insisted that him and his two brothers be at the dinner table on time at six o'clock. And at the dinner table, it was either a chat about communism, Shakespeare, the Constitution, politics of the day, this was an Al Bundy. Like, these are intelligent, bright people. And my point always is, when I have this chat is you may disagree with them. I'll give you the example of me and Ted bird. Ted is very right wing. Ted is right on a lot of issues. So my, but I'm also center. I don't think I'm left on very much, but I'm center on a lot of things. I'm pro abortion. I'm pro gay marriage, I'm I'm pro live your own life. Yeah, elite, you want to smoke weed, great love who you love, enjoy your life. So long as you're not hurting anybody away you go. And then I'm, you know, I'm a little I'm a little right of center when it comes to the way they spend the money, the bike paths, the other things that are changing cities that a lot of people think are important than I don't. But you know, Ted is mostly center and right. We've been friends for 40 years. And we we've argued, and we've disagreed we sat across each other from 40 years, every day at five o'clock in the fucking morning. I love this guy. Do you think because he takes a position on one political issue that I'm gonna go You're a piece of shit. No, that's not the way to behave? That's not you're a poli sci guy. That's not what politics are supposed to be. Matt Cundill  32:23 But that could have made for a better radio show. Terry Dimonte  32:28 would have been more entertaining? Fuck, you know, fucking you know, I understand that. It's a story that's been told 10,000 times. I don't need to tell it again. But, you know, when when Justin was a kid, and he was going to the parliamentary cafeteria with his dad and his, he spotted Joe Clark and Justin said something like, you know, there's the bad guy or the enemy. And his father was furious. Not furious. But you know, Justin was just a kid said no, that's just a man I disagree with and we're gonna go over and have lunch with him. And him and Joe Clark sat across from each other and there was a picture. This always seems to happen after they get off out of office was a picture. I don't know if you saw it. I'm Shawn Krejci and Stephen Harper a couple of weeks ago standing next to each other. And being civil and talking to each other as two people that cared a lot about the country, but had different ideas about how the country should be run. Justin has taken all kinds of phone calls from Brian Mulroney and Brian Mulroney has called him to congratulate him on the job he did to save NAFTA. You know, these are the things people don't talk about while you're yelling, you piece of shit and flying your fuck Trudeau flag. You know, I I was visiting friends of my wife's in in Barry's Bay, Ontario. And I had slowed the car down to like four kilometers an hour I said to my wife, sweetheart, look at this. And on the porch of a beautiful old style, you know, country Ontario home, you know, the kind of home that you would see in a movie that look charming. And you'd think, you know, Ethel and Carl lived there and have been there for 80 years or whatever. If you know what the porch, the beams of the front door and strong from the porch was not a handmade sign a sign that they went and had printed. And it was big. I mean, it was, I don't know 15 feet by 20 Fiat and like big. And like I said, not hand painted. It was was printed. And it said in big, big black letters, fuck Trudeau and underneath that lovely phrase, and it said, and if you love Trudeau fuck you too. And I thought to myself, what has happened to Canadians that that display of ignorance and horrible manners would be proudly displayed on your porch and what do you do if your neighbors have chilled Ron, what do you tell them? You know, I often drive by a truck out here in British Columbia, with, you know, three kids in the back and a dog and a man and a woman in the front flying a giant fuck Trudeau flag with stickers on the back. That's a fuck Trudeau. And I think to myself, What do you how do you explain that to your children? Like what when your kid says, Daddy, what's fuck Trudeau mean? And, you know, it's I never saw Canadians is that, you know, there was always you know, Uncle Harvey at the Christmas table yelling and screaming and banging on the table about that fuckin Trudeau or that fucking Joe Clark or that fucking Mulroney or whatever. But no one from one proudly displayed that, like what what's happened to us and I, I go all the way back to when we first started talking about this. A lot of it is social media. It's easy to be a keyboard warrior. And it's pretty sad because I just still view Canadians through the ACA. How are you doing good? Do you want to come over for supper? You know, like you, you think of think of your early days in the Maritimes. Matt, in my early days in Manitoba, was unthinkable, unthinkable that people would behave that was such crassness was unthinkable. And you you would be rightfully excoriated for it. You know, people would wag their finger and say, hey, there are children around stop it. And that's gone. And Matt Cundill  36:25 not to be forgotten is that all this has been accomplished by Trudeau with a minority government, which means you can't do any of this without a little help from some other people. Yeah, yeah. You know, who are who are getting little to no blame. So it's this amorphous thing that is in people's minds that has been created, that it's the boogey man. Yeah, Terry Dimonte  36:50 and take it all back. You know, you've known me for a very long time. I'm a kid from Verdun. My parents were blue collar, hard working people that did the best they could to raise three kids. And I came from a family that have any connections, we know anybody in the media or politics or, you know, I thought the peerform Pirates coach was a star. You know, like the junior B hockey team, I thought that guy was a celebrity. We didn't know anybody. And I'm interviewing the prime minister. And that, you know, that's just never lost on me. And I, I just get such, you know, I just when we're walking away from the hotel, this, you know, couple of weeks ago, I said to my wife just had a chat with the Prime Minister. It's, it's still isn't lost to me. I think it's very cool. And I think it's a lovely thing that he does. And I know, there are many, many people that enjoy it. And there's a lot, you know, there's a lot of people that that throw shit my way, in his way. But I think it's a lovely thing, that two old friends get together and talk at Christmas, just like you and me. And you happen to be the emperor of the sound off Podcast Network, and he happens to be the prime minister. And I love both chats just as much. I Matt Cundill  38:11 do find it really odd the way people have have fallen off a cliff. And I think you are right, I think it is social media. I remember you always told me sign your name to your work. And I think a lot of people just well, they don't do it. I think they think they're media wizards or something. But no, they can't sign their name to their work. By the way, all these people, I don't think they would come up to you and say this to your face. I think they just love doing it, you know, from behind the keyboard. But do none of these people have like friends who might vote NDP? Or who might vote conservative or who might vote Liberal or Green Party? Terry Dimonte  38:44 I don't know. And I don't think they're interested in any kind of like, normal chat. You know, as you're telling me this, I'm looking at my Twitter feed. And, you know, the, the amount of things that come is from V, Vons and Ling, PAO, and mountain dreaming and all kinds of bots, they're all hiding behind this shit. And what really, really is stunning to me is, you know, because you're hiding behind a mask, and because you're hiding behind a keyboard, it's amazing to me how deep the depths that they can plumb the depths of hatred that they can plumb and how nasty they can get. You know, even though it's behind the keyboard, it still is in a public forum. You know, some of the things they say. They think they're being clever and there was somebody said, Toronto Star writing another fluff piece for their boy. You know, that's not nasty, but it's just It always surprises me and I think to mice, should I forget, I forget where the quote is from a famous comedian, or it was in a movie. I forget where it was. You kiss your mother. I think it was Cheech and Chong. You kiss him. through with that mouth, the brush your teeth with them, like honest to God like, Jesus. Like calm down. Honestly, calm down. They really Matt Cundill  40:10 have something to say they can this call me I'll get you a podcast. Yeah, I can assure you it will not be very good. It won't last very long. You don't even have a lot to say that smart, but we'll get to the podcast. There you go. Terry Dimonte  40:21 or extend Maddie and don't tell you to suck his dick Matt Cundill  40:28 I gotta ask you don't miss radio, do you? I do a bit. You don't miss the hours or you didn't miss the radio? Terry Dimonte  40:34 No, no, God, no, I never missed the hours. But I have to admit I do. I do a bit because this that we're doing now. You know, me talking into a microphone and telling stories. I just I love doing that. I really did. And I still do. And I you know we do to an extent on the podcast. But as you well no, until everything went sideways. 1012 years ago, the magic in in the medium is is just something that isn't replaced. I was in my in my pharmacy a couple of days ago and him and I get along like house on fire. But you know, nobody. Nobody knows what I did for a living out here. I'm completely anonymous out here. And he asked me out of the blue. And nobody does. So it's a little bit taken aback. He said. He said, Are you retired? I said Yeah, me. What did you do? And I said, Well, I worked in the radio business for many years. He said, Oh, what did you do on the radio? And I said, Well, I I was the host of a morning show in Montreal for a very long time. He went oh my god. And I said, Well, you know, you wouldn't have you wouldn't have known it. You said, I love radio. He said I love the companionship of radio. He said, You know, I can do everything that I'm doing. And radio has. He didn't use the word magic. But he was explaining that radio didn't need pictures, and yet it could still keep me company. And then he said something that stunned me because I thought only radio people talk like this. He said, radio feels like my friend. It's like having a friend here. And I said, Yep, I said nadji that's that's the magic of radio. That has always been the magical radio. It's live, Matt Cundill  42:19 man. It's it's live. Yeah. Live. Terry Dimonte  42:23 And in the moment, you know, and I still to this day, especially when I go back to Montreal. People still say to me, I grew up with you. You know, I don't remember High School. You know, high school wouldn't have been the same without you and Patti or you and Ted. And I it's not that I'm living in the past. And I don't want to live in the past. But I wish I wish I had an outlet. I could keep people company maybe once or twice a week and maybe tell stories. You know, there was a plan. A lot of people don't know this, but the guy who hired me back brought me back to Montreal from Calgary. Martin Spaulding. My contract expired in May of 2020. I think it was 2021. Yeah, I don't anyway, was expired in May. So that was my quote unquote, retirement. And in the Christmas prior to May, so like 567 months before my contract expired. Martin said to me, you know, I think we can we can come up with an idea for you with, you know, you could be like a sort of a ShowMe. emeritus guy, you know, maybe you could do the odd specialist, you know, it would be great. We could do your Christmas show every year. And you know, we could record that and run that around Christmas knee and just sort of keep your presence around. He said, Would you like that? I said, Yeah, I would love to talk about that. I sit down, you know, I'm sure we can come up with some ideas after I have a long break hold. I'd look forward to that. And in January, they fired him. And that was the end of that. So there, you know, there was some discussion prior to the let's get rid of this guy and his salary. There was some discussion about that. Maybe I could do a thing or two about a thing or two. And when I think about it, I think I've I wouldn't mind doing that. I do that thing with Ted at light 1067 small radio station in Hudson and him and I put together a show for Saturday morning from nine to noon. That's a lot of fun. Do Matt Cundill  44:19 you remember when that was first introduced to you at shome doing us doing a Saturday morning Best of Show. idea was that. Terry Dimonte  44:27 But you know what? That's that's a feather in your cap, my friend. It was good idea. Because it was popular and we had a ball doing it. We had an absolute ball doing it every, every Friday, Ted and I would send our producer across the street to get fried chicken from the Prophet go. And contributing to part of my problem at the hospital I guess. And we would sit and we would we would listen to clips from the week and we'd howl with laughter and then at the end of the show Mark would put together about a five or six minute blooper reel because we were having so much fun Mark said, We got to share this with the audience. And that proved to be the most popular part of the show. We had a ball doing it and absolute ball doing it. So yeah, you were writing it. You know, I don't know, that took an hour out of my Friday or whatever. But I didn't know what it is about the business. But the business and its current shape, are not interested at all, in people who'd been doing it for a while. I had one guy tell me that he thought he said managers think you guys want a lot of money to do it. You'd be stunned at how little money I do it for I'm retired, I would do it for fun. Anyway, that's again, Terry's long winded answer to say, I do miss it a bit. I really do. Because, as you know, Matt, it was our passion. You know, I couldn't believe people paid us to do it was just, you know, when I got to Winnipeg, and seven and I thought I won the lotto, I just, I could not believe that they had turned me loose in a radio station with a, you know, a library full of albums that I could choose and pick and put my own radio show together and leave me in the building from midnight to six. I just, I just thought I just thought I'd died and gone to heaven. Matt Cundill  46:20 I can't believe they did that to me either. Especially when I look at that I have kids the same age, because I would not let them go and run the radio station with records. I'm gonna leave this these kids in charge of a station between midnight and six. I don't think that's a good idea. Leave Terry Dimonte  46:40 the kids in charge of anything. I you know, and I look back on it with such fondness and, and also gratitude because we were very lucky. You know, that era that we were in, and I was watching a documentary, my wife and I are both JFK fans, you know, fans of of the man in the story. And we're watching a JFK documentary, one of the 9 million we've seen. And I said to just look at that, that was the era that was the era where radio was king. You know, people on the streets of New York with a transistor radios held up to their head. That was the that was the town square. You know, we grew up in an area where radio was the town square. If you wanted to know where the queen city kids were playing on Friday night, which bar they were going to be at you had to listen to city FM. If you wanted to know when AC DC was coming to town and where to get tickets, you had to listen to city FM. You know, if you wanted to hear the new back in black, you had to tune in city FM it was I guess a was a different era era. And but I think there's a lot of things are diminished, because that era is gone. I saw on Facebook that this or you know, CBS put on Twitter that they're doing this or whatever. It's just, you know, it's it's yeah, the world is better and blah, blah, blah. But all of that to say was we were very, very lucky that we grew up in that era. And it was a it's a special time when you when I see it reflected in, in documentaries and movies like that, you know, when people are, are standing and gasping when they get the news out of the little box from the transistor being held up to their ear. It's a it's a display of the magic of radio that I don't think it's gone. By the way. You know, I don't think there's a lot to listen to on the radio anymore. Because a lot of spontaneity is gone. And a lot of local stuff is gone. You can still reach out and touch people through the radio speaker if you know what you're doing. Matt Cundill  48:36 How's your TV viewing? And when I asked you that I'm really mean have you watched the Gilded Age, my wife, Terry Dimonte  48:42 my wife and I love it. Love it. My wife and I are Downton Abbey fans. Me too. So it's there's a common thread there because of the writer and the the era of history. And we think it's terrific and I'm forgetting her name as I'm trying to tell the story. But the lady, the lady who was on the good wife and Christ, what's her name? Christine Matt Cundill  49:05 Baranski. Terry Dimonte  49:06 Thank you. Matt Cundill  49:07 I also want to mention, by the way, she's a huge Buffalo Bills fan. Terry Dimonte  49:12 Issue, really. She my wife and I say this every time we watched the Gilded Age, and The Good Wife, my wife turned me on to the good wife. I didn't watch it when it was on and I couldn't believe that I missed it. Christine Baranski is one of the most underrated actresses in Hollywood. I think she is amazing in in this role and, and I just love the writing in the Gilded Age. I just think it's terrific. I'm glad you're watching it. Yeah. Matt Cundill  49:37 And Wrexham I know you've got a football fan for a wife. So yeah, Wrexham Terry Dimonte  49:42 and I've become a football fan. And I would watch Ryan Reynolds read the phone book. Yeah. Is there any guy who's more charming and clever and fun and II? You know, I don't I don't know him. I've never met him but he just looks like the nicest, kindest man In the world with the greatest sense of humor, and every time he has a new mint mobile commercial, I get excited. I go on YouTube and find it. One of the many companies that he owns, you know, in his gin commercials, and you know, what he did with Wrexham is genius. It's absolute, like from a business point of view, a marketing point of view, and also a football point of view. And the good that it's done for that town has been spectacular. My only criticism, if you're watching this, right. Is he wasn't in the part to the second season of the documentary isn't as compelling because he's not in it very much. Matt Cundill  50:41 It came to my mind when you were saying, Hey, I do this for peanuts. I don't think I'm ruining the show by mentioning this. But to go and get Ben Foster out of retirement for the last eight games of the year, is kind of like I'm gonna bring Terry to Montana to do Sunday morning. So we have a good book. Terry Dimonte  50:57 Yeah, I guess there's, there's a little bit of a similarity to that course. And then I'd have to move back to Montreal. Matt Cundill  51:02 You don't you're doing exactly what they thought you'd be doing anyways, afterwards, and you're doing Christmas shows, you're doing all that you got a podcast going. It's I don't mean to say that, like you haven't gone away. But there's, there's still tons of content you're producing. So nobody's gonna forget about you Terry Dimonte  51:17 know, I'm not concerned about that. I just, I was talked about this thing that the celebrity or notoriety or whatever you want to call it that came with being on the radio every morning, was a byproduct was just a byproduct of what we did. I didn't do it for that. You just had to accept that. It's, it's, it's why I get angry when I hear people complain about being famous. You know, you hear actors say, you know, it's too much. And you have to leave me alone. And Hey, shut up. Right, the people who watch your movies or your television shows, you know, and you have to know, I had like a tiny, tiny, tiny little sort of taste of it as a as a morning radio host. And I get it if you're Ryan Reynolds, or you're somebody, you know, the prime minister or somebody with a big, big public figure you it's going to be tough to go out in public. But I have no sympathy for you, you know that you're living that wonderful life. Because you're in the public eye. It's just something that you you have to put up with. I always remember chatting with Gila Fleur, and interviewing him when he when his book came out years ago. And I said to him, What did you What did you like about playing for the Rangers? And he said to me, I got to do my grocery. I said what he said, I could do my grocery, you said it was fun for me. Because I could go to do my grocery and nobody know who I was, you know, and I understood it because De La Fleur cannot walk or couldn't have walked rest in peace. Any city in this country, from coast to coast to coast, he couldn't have gotten anywhere, everybody would have recognized him. But in New Jersey, he could do his grocery. And I don't know why I got on that. I went on a tangent there about actors who complain about being recognized, I guess. Matt Cundill  53:04 Well, the way it was explained to me from you was it comes with the territory. So if you're going to be an actor, that's what happens. Yeah. Terry Dimonte  53:14 And normally, people would just say, hey, Terry, how you doing? Or they, they'll say, hey, Terry, I loved your show, or you know, it's nice to meet you, my father and I listened to you every morning. Thank you. That's, that's a wonderful, wonderful compliment. That's that's kind you know, and every once in a while you get, you know, I never listened to you. Okay, that's fine. Not everybody did. That's okay. Matt Cundill  53:38 Did you wanna watch a small light? A Terry Dimonte  53:41 small light on prime? I haven't watched that. I'm writing it down. Matt Cundill  53:46 Okay, that's going to be my recommendation to you. And I think a lot of people have overlooked it as being a radio story because it's first a world it's a love story. It's a world war two story. It's it's a story of many things, but you and I would watch it and we would say that's a radio story. Terry Dimonte  54:03 Is that the story about the girl? Who was the thing with the German guy and the Yeah, that thing? Okay, cool. Thank you. I'm gonna watch this. Thank you. I watched the trailer but I haven't watched it yet. Very surprised. Matt Cundill  54:15 A lot of radio people haven't mentioned Hey, it's a radio story. But it's radio story X cool. What you're doing for your birthday this year? Because last year last year, it's not gonna be a hard act to follow because last year was open heart surgery this year. Terry Dimonte  54:31 Yeah, a little quieter I hope and, and no side of the chest. I'm hoping I don't know if that's what it sounds like. My my wife and I, Jess and I have had conversations about it. This. This is something else that I haven't talked about publicly. What's been interesting is because I had such a struggle and because I was in so much trouble and flirted with the other side as it were, my wife has been experiencing a bit of trauma, not paralyzing trauma, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to overplay it and be overdramatic, but when December arrived, because this time last year, it was so intense. And we were so frightened. When December arrived, she started to get edgy and feelings of and it came up. I said, you know, what, what do you want to do on my birthday? And, and she said, Well, we're going to do something joyous and celebratory. That's what we're going to do. As a matter of fact, she wants to have two different celebrations her dad is coming to visit from Quebec, after after Christmas, he'll be here, I think, on the 27th. And she said to me last night, would you do you mind if we did a birthday thing with my dad while my dad is here? And I said, no, they, you know, do you want to do it early? And she said, No, I want to do two. So we're going to do one with dad when he's here. And then and then we'll do one with me and you want the third? So I don't know what it is. We're going to we're going to decide maybe a restaurant or something. We have not found any good restaurants. I'm sure we talked about this before. We find the food absolute ship out here. I mean, it's fine if you like Earl's Matt Cundill  56:15 Oh, you're overlooking some here, Terry. Cal sees Mark sees Montana's Joey's Yes. Your eyes a little bit. Terry Dimonte  56:27 Cod. Yes. And I what we think and BC people are gonna, they're gonna hate us for this. But we don't know anybody. Nobody talks to us. We have no friends. But a couple of people have said to just like it works. You have to try such and such. And we'll go and think, oh, oh, my God. And what we've realized is if you grew up here, right, Vancouver was, you know, BC is a small province and has been, you know, it's not a small province anymore. I don't mean geographically. I mean, population wise. You know, for years and years and years. Vancouver was, you know, fairly small population wise. And you can get amazing Asian food, amazing Indian food. You know, those are the kinds of things that you don't want to have Chinese food, like every second or third day or every weekend. And I'm not a food. I'm not an Indian food fan. As you well know. Matt Cundill  57:23 I did. Actually I asked you if you wanted to have Indian food one night, and you said you would eat it right over the toilet. Terry Dimonte  57:28 Yeah, just just bring it into me. I'll sit on the can and we'll cut out the middleman. Bring me bring him bring me a towel and so I can mop my forehead. And I'll just eat it as it's coming. And so we're gonna cut out the middleman. Matt Cundill  57:48 We have to put this episode out on the 26th There's no way we can put this out on the 25th Terry Dimonte  57:54 Yeah, it hasn't been very Christmassy never is. Oh, what we're trying to decide if we can find a restaurant we went to. We when we got married. We got married in British Columbia. And we had our reception at highs. Highs is my all time favorite steakhouse of all time. I've had so many great memories. You know, it all started in Winnipeg at the highs in Winnipeg. That was I think the very first fancy steakhouse I was ever in. Andy Frost was our waiter. Really? Yes. Andy Frost was a waiter at the highs in Winnipeg. And he was one of the best waiters ever. In the history of highs. He was a really great, you know how I was talking about the service that highs and how great it is. That was my first exposure to it was Andy frost had never seen anything like it. My son is working there. Yes. Is he still there? Yep. Yeah. And I love the highs in Winnipeg. Matt Cundill  58:54 I want Andy frost to bring you the steak and announce it. Yeah, here is your medium rare. Terry Dimonte  59:07 You when you put the podcast do you have to let nd no tag nd in the podcast. Anyway, we were at. We were at highs in Vancouver the other night. We were downtown for Oh, after the interview with the Prime Minister. I said we're downtown sweetheart. Let's go to highs and I'm sorry to say the highs man Coover has lost its fastball. Dang, I'm very disappointing. So we all have that to say we don't know. Joe fortes is a great restaurant. We may we may go there. But the other thing now I don't know if you've noticed this Maddy Winnipeg but a lot of restaurants we call the we call the restaurant infall that Stanley Tucci had talked about and just said Home Depot just love Stanley Tucci. And anyway, she called the restaurant that he had talked about that he had been at when he was in Vancouver. And they said, Yeah, we have a table was available November 24. Thanks for what kind of ways that to run a restaurant anyway. All that to say is you know if anybody's from Vancouver and wants to DM me about a restaurant that they love and to please don't recommend the Cactus Club we go there all the time just one close to you know guy or collectors, right? I want to, I want many buffs I want to you know, I want to I want the monkland Tavern and I want to you know, I want to the corner little tiny place in you know, petite by three and the restaurant in the back corner of Walmart, you know, the, the places where the you know, the the old Italian family has been there for 1000 years, that kind of thing that for some reason, we haven't found that here. Matt Cundill  1:00:44 Terry, Merry Christmas to you. I'm sorry, I'm not going to see you. Maybe in 2024 we will resolve to see one another. Terry Dimonte  1:00:52 Listen, I apologize. I had fully intended to be there. Because I missed the annual visit with you for the dip in the pool. Not that I come to visit you for the swim, but I liked the fact that you do have a pool in the backyard. And you know how much I love your children. I'm very fond to your kids and I wanted to see them and also my radio dad Don Percy lives in Winnipeg, and I can't believe I missed the visit this year so I promise you I will make up for it in 2024 Matt Cundill  1:01:24 good I'll handle the dinner. Okay, Terry Dimonte  1:01:26 I'll look forward to that. As long as it isn't nothing not there's anything wrong with URLs or the Cactus Club I don't get me wrong there they're absolutely fine. Matt Cundill  1:01:34 Oh my god you have a Cactus Club in your part of the world we don't even have one in Winnipeg. Terry Dimonte  1:01:40 I'm sure you will soon we have a highs this spring roll out the red carpet. Yeah, yeah. I hope so. Merry Christmas to you and the boys Matthew and give our loves Dave and and give our love to your your mum and the the other candles that are all around the world which Matt Cundill  1:01:58 and Merry Christmas to Jess. I think of her every time man he was on. Oh my god. Actually this year it's been like oh my god is Jess. Okay. Yeah, Terry Dimonte  1:02:06 Saturday and Sunday mornings have not been fun here. If you're a man you some Florida you know what I'm talking about?

Jason Dixon has been with Sirius XM since 2015. How he got there is a sum of all the parts that come before that. An internship at 970 WFLA after hearing about it in a TV and radio class, a transition to the Power Pig where he shares a number of fun stories, launching what would become WDAE, followed by 8 years at the Tampa Bay Lightning. Jason later had stints in North Carolina and Detroit. In this episode you will hear stories from all these stops; which means you will hear some stories from inside the Tampa Bay Lightning who had a remarkable team throughout the early 2000's, winning a Stanley Cup in 2004. We timed the release of this episode with the launch of the new Sirius App. Feedback on the app can be found in the replies. Jason spoke about this briefly - and that was the flip from Z93 to 93.3 the Power Pig. You can listen to it here. Transcription Tara Sands (Voiceover)  00:00 The Sound Off Podcast. The show about podcast and broadcast, starts now. Matt Cundill  00:13 Jason Dixon is someone I've run into on and off over the years at places like Podcast Movement and various radio gatherings. I was introduced to him by Jason Barrett from Barrett Sports Media. I've only known Jason Dixon as the lead in sports and Sirius XM, but how we got there is a great story. It includes a start back in the late 80s and early 90s at the Power Pig in Tampa Bay, which really should have its very own podcast. Listen, if this were my only job, I would have created an eight part miniseries featuring the battle between Q105 and the Power Pig. If someone does make this podcast that got my permission to use the parts of this episode to tell the stories, just credit us in the show notes. Here we go. Jason Dixon joins me from the DMV, which for the rest of us is in and around Washington, DC. Jason Dixon  01:03 Hillsborough Community College on Dale Mabry highway in beautiful Tampa, Florida right across from Raymond James Stadium, affectionately known as the Harvard by the highway. I wasn't a very good student did enough to get by, took a TV and radio class for no other reason. Then I figured I watched TV and I listened to radio. That's one I could pass. This was pre cell phone days was taken the class heard the instructor tell another person about an internship at 970 WFLA in Tampa, and immediately went down to the payphone in the lobby of the school and called WFLA and said I heard you were looking for an intern, Steve Hall, who was the news director that time invited me in for an interview the next day and the following day, I was an intern at 970 WFLA. I don't know what happened to that other guy. Matt Cundill  01:55 So it's 1989 ish and what radio stations are you listening to in Tampa? Jason Dixon  02:02 Q105 man Scott Shannon, Q morning Zoo. Yeah, he was he left around that area to go to Z100 so I'm not sure. You know, Cleveland Wheeler, Scott Shannon, that whole thing. And Ron and Ron on 95YNF too were were huge then. But yeah, I grew up listening to the Q Zoo in the morning, Scott Shannon and Cleveland. It was just just awesome to you know, listen to that legendary radio station. Matt Cundill  02:27 So you get into radio and what are your first jobs? Jason Dixon  02:30 Newsroom intern which was basically hang out in the newsroom . 970 WFLA at the time was a robust radio newsroom something you know kind of a thing of the past with you know, full time reporters out covering beats every day, you know, taking feeds from them cutting up carving up, the network feeds or cuts the talk host it was live local talk all day long. And I'd have to write down the temperatures in the community, different communities in the area and take them in and slip into the talk show hosts so they could do the weather every hour. So all that kind of stuff recording Paul Harvey taping Paul Harvey every day was huge in Tampa, Florida, where the average age was about 150 they loved them some Paul Harvey so that was that was a big deal to. Matt Cundill  03:14 Seems nuts that we have to explain that newsrooms were once robust. And we actually had to have somebody physically record something like Paul Harvey or you know, Dick Clark's rock and roll remember and all that stuff. Jason Dixon  03:27 Yeah, I mean, it was it was a thing you know, the reporters had their assignments every day they would go out you know, call in their reports feed their reports, I would record them and that was part of the deal. The anchor was there every hour, you know, putting the newscast and I had you know, sometimes you had to type up the leads, you know, card up the stuff type up, you know, type of the cart labels for the news anchors, it was just part of the deal you know, that is a thing of the past now. Matt Cundill  03:54 How are we going to explain to part of our listenership what carts are? Jason Dixon  03:59 I still have them on my desk. So you know, I'm in this weird situation where I'm the old man in the room at Sirius XM and so I have two cart machines with carts in them on my desk and every once in a while I will have to demonstrate and explain the process of carving something up and you know, going past the splice and you know hoping everything was bulk arranged properly all that stuff so different world different world now. Matt Cundill  04:28 Yet you don't let it go. You keep it on your desk and I am no different because we're roughly the same age and started in radio at the same time. This is a PBX phone box. No when you get the mayor on the phone and you need to record that exactly and here are some cassettes which I have kicking about. Jason Dixon  04:47 Yes we have to explain those those as well. The cassettes that's amazing, although I just read an article because that's like making a comeback, but vinyl had its moment. And I read somewhere now like people are buying music on cassette it again, which is amazing to me. Matt Cundill  05:02 How did the Power Pig come about because you had a front row seat? Jason Dixon  05:06 Yeah. So the transition from newsroom to being able to run the board. My career is a whole thing of happenstance right. It happened to hear that person, the Professor, tell that other person about the internship. One day, I asked if I could watch the guy run the board for the talk shows, I had no idea what that was. I only worked in the newsroom. So sitting in there for literally an hour and a half. And Mike Serio, the guy that was in charge of the board operators said, Oh, hey, you want to learn how to do this? And I'm like, well, maybe I don't know. Well, we just had three guys quit. So you start this weekend and I started running Sally Jessy Raphael and Tom Schneider at night. From there, I guess proved my board prowess. So before the Power Pig, the station was Z93 Good Time Oldies. I was asked to come in on the weekend overnights and run the aforementioned Dick Clark's Rock Roll And Remember, which came on vinyl. And while I was there, I was to pull the music from the morning show. Now this was an oldies station. The songs are two minutes long and old songs one cart. So each hour had about 14 carts stacked about this high. So you would run to clerks Rock Roll and remember play the spots flip over the record to the record backup. I'm doing that did it for probably a few months. One night, I noticed a bunch of the jocks. Regular jocks were hanging out on a Sunday night, and there was a meeting apparently going on between the powers that be Randy Michaels, Gabe Hobbs. Unbeknownst to me, the meeting concluded with telling the jock staff that they were going to flip the switch the power pig, they went out and spray painted the van pink and black. I was wearing what we called our Good Time Oldies Z shirt, which was a Z93 t shirt. The jocks who were maybe a little ameliorated, came in grabbed me, pinned me against the wall and spray painted my T shirt with black spray paint pow pig on it. And the next morning, I believe that was at 10am they flipped the switch and I was a member member of the Power Pig Air Staff. Matt Cundill  07:17 Wow. So for those who don't know, cuz I think a lot of people just don't know the story. Why was the Power Pigs so big? Jason Dixon  07:28 Well, it has a lot more to do with Q105. Right. I mean, Q105 was a monster and in the day, you know, in a in an era now where everything is so niche, right, everybody has their little place they they fit Q105 was everything. They were a full service radio station news, weather and sports. They played at night, you know, the latest CHR Scott Shannon hosted the oldies hour at 10am where they aired an hour of oldies, if there was a country song, you know, that was Brady, they played the country song. So they were everything to everybody in the community and they were just ripe for the picking. They were just so big. There was a place where you could undercut them on the on the low end and a lot of room to succeed. And they were a legendary radio station. I mean, Mason Dixon, you know, Scott Cleveland every, Bobby Rich, everybody that had been a part of that, that station. So the bit was they basically called up and I'm blanking on the guy's name, but one of the big wigs at Eden's broadcasting at the time and said, We won't change formats, if you pay us a million bucks, and they were dead serious. They were dead serious of Eden's would have written the million dollar check, they would probably still be good time all of these. And basically the attitude was bring it and the Power Pig launched and it was everything so opposite of Q105. It was edgy, a little raunchy, the music, everything was pitched up 2% So everything seemed you know faster. The jocks didn't talk a lot and when they did, it meant something and and it was very in your face. It was you know, basically aired the dirty laundry about Q105. And the reason why they were successful and all their, all their drama about the morning show not liking the afternoon show and vice versa. It was an open book, and it took hold, you know, people loved it. Matt Cundill  09:23 Because I think a lot of people who would, you know, look at radio from a business or from the flat side of things would just say, we're gonna start a top 40 and we're gonna go up against them and let's see how much share we can take. But this is different. This is drama, a ransom renegade radio. I think the word renegade was used often at the imaging bumper, Morgan. Bumper Morgan  09:47 Power 93. If you ain't cranking it you must be yanking in. Keep busting. Matt Cundill  09:55 I think the news was a little bit on edge like the old 2020 newsletter of Detroit. Jason Dixon  10:00 Yeah, we had Martin Giles who the late great Martin Giles, who was one of the best the pipes you wouldn't believe in the great writing. That was a little bit of you know double entendre wink wink when he could. Yeah, everything. Everything you just mentioned a small band of renegades terrorizing Tampa Bay that was, you know, that was the sweeper, but the people loved us, you know, we had the thing, flipping the pig, which was the middle finger. And that was a negative, right, and we turned it into a positive. And, you know, whenever you see Q105, flip them the pig, let them know. So there's a big parade in town called the Gasparilla parade. It's a pirate festival and at the parade, Q105. Had Belinda Carlisle on their float in the parade. This was when she was in her mad about you, heyday. And so we went on the air and you know, whenever you seeking Q105, flip on the pig, and no one had clued Belinda into this. And she's down the parade route and 1000s and 1000s and 1000s upon people are given her the middle finger. Very she was very upset. I feel bad for poor Belinda in hindsight, no fault of her own, by the way. But yeah, that was the thing. It was just something people could rally around and it was a good fit the 90s you it wouldn't work now right? Just different time in place. But for that moment, in that time, man, it was it was awesome. Matt Cundill  11:31 Yeah and musically, you said skewed younger. And you know, it got a little rhythmic in there too right. Jason Dixon  11:37 Oh, for sure. Bumper Morgan  11:39 There's skid marks on the underwear of Tampa Bay. Matt Cundill  11:44 You mentioned pitched up the music is faster paced and you don't need to play Belinda Carlisle to be a success. Q105 did. Jason Dixon  11:52 Yeah, exactly. I mean, they that they were built on being everything to everyone, especially at the beginning. Now the music was a little more broad at the beginning. Like there was Aerosmith and Def Leppard alongside, you know, Paul Abdul and Milli Vanilli, it sort of got narrowed in there for a while and in the music chain. And in the 9394 when when the grunge thing started happening, we played some Pearl Jam and, and stuff like that as well. But, you know, musically, it was just totally different and and they threw some stuff in there. Clarence Carter Strokin was not a song of the time, but it was a song that hadn't been played on the radio and it was edgy and and people liked it. It was funny. The butt EU you know, that sort of stuff. The music was so narrow, it just, you know, was was the right sort of sort of spot and the problem with and I apologize, I'm jumping ahead, Q105 the mistake they made was taken us head on. If they just done what they did kept on going, they'd have been fine. But they changed our music, change their music to try to be us. And it didn't work for them wasn't what their audience one. Matt Cundill  13:01 How long did it take for the Pig to pass them? Jason Dixon  13:05 I think it was 73 days. Matt Cundill  13:08 Yeah. Jason Dixon  13:08 Something like that. And this was, you know, our diary method book every three months sort of deal right. So yeah, I think it was the second or third book. We were ahead of them. Matt Cundill  13:19 And the other crazy thing, maybe it's not so crazy. Now it seems brilliant. But it's always like well don't talk about your competition, but you were only talking about your competition and it must have sent them nuts. Jason Dixon  13:30 Oh, it created a soap opera around them. We did these bits when clear channel bottom Lowry Mays, you know was low rent band aids and it was voiced by the late great Brian James. And it was airing all their dirty laundry you know that we knew about and the reason we knew about it, by the way is we sent people over to gig through their dumpsters. We were actually done dumpster diving, and bringing home their trash and digging through their memos and all that stuff that that's legitimately happened. The other thing we did, we had on our board, we had Q105 and Q so we could punch up Q105. Anytime we wanted. And we had a double punch card bumper Morgan voicing it. It's a fact Q105 plays the most commercials check them out. We'll wait. Bumper Morgan  14:17 So fact Q105 plays the most commercials don't believe us. Check them out. We'll wait. See what we mean. Jason Dixon  14:34 And on the window at the studio, we had a grease pencil and every time we call it and we added another tick mark so it was all out in your face no rules doing what you needed to do. We they would do price patrols announce where they were at and they'd be giving out Q105 t shirts and we would follow them go across the street and tell people to bring their Q105 t shirts to us and we would have these screw stickers that would go through the Q105 logo or depending on the time we had screw the Q t shirts, which was their logo with a screw on it and our logo on the back. Matt Cundill  15:12 Okay, so that that bit I stole. Jason Dixon  15:16 Well, I have a saying personally, if you've stolen from me, you've stolen twice. So you know, feel free and anybody listening, feel free to take that one as well. But it was huge. You know, they were giving away 1000s of dollars. Our bid was we didn't have the money. So here's a pig buck. We had $1 bill that we put a little sticker on where George Washington's face was, and gave people $1. And they were just as happy. Yeah, so it was it was different. Matt Cundill  15:44 You stopped identifying as the Pig. I think it was just 933 after that. Probably Well, after you've conquered the format. You didn't need to be the Pig anymore. Jason Dixon  15:53 Yeah, exactly. And that's, you know, at some point, the attitude was capping the revenue right. There were some people that just the numbers we were bringing in warranted us making a lot more revenue than we were but there were some people that were just playing staying away because of the you know, the the edginess. Bumper Morgan  16:12 Our 93 The Power Pig. Hello, my name is Karina I'm in the hospital right now are waiting for liberty as they say I might not make it. It won't matter. Because my family is out of money and the hospital is gonna throw me out to the call tomorrow. Which you can help. Please buy a power big T shirt from my daddy good news. You can save my life and his job for only $10. Hurry before- Power Pig T shirts. Please buy one big T shirts available to all Tampa Bay Area magic markets, Tracks Records, Record Bar, Turtles Records and Tape Strippers and unlimited employees raise lock and key and the Power Pig Studio. Jason Dixon  16:54 The decision was made from power 93 to Power Pig to 933 FLZ in The New Music Revulotion. . Funny story. I was the jock on the air when the change happened. We were going to change in the morning show. And so BJ Harris is the PD at the time came in all right, man. Go ahead. Start with the 93 three stuff. First record, I talked up 933 a new music revolution blah, blah, blah, and locked it out with right here on Power 93 the Power Pig. Oh, so that's why I knew the career as a jock was I wasn't long for that career. Matt Cundill  17:27 This is why you pivoted over to sports. That guy who launched the 933 we're gonna move him to sports. Jason Dixon  17:33 Well, a little more than that, but yeah. Matt Cundill  17:36 You cross the street for that. Jason Dixon  17:38 No, no, no. So I was producing the morning show. I was the third wheel on the morning show MJ and BJ and I was stunt guy, which was was great. I was having a blast and you know, creating theater, the mind and being that I was sort of the punch line guy on the morning show MJ,  Kelly, BJ Harris and me and you know if I'm being honest, MJ was difficult to work with. I have all the respect in the world for MJ Todd Schmidt. He's a talented talent to do that. I was down in Tampa a couple of weeks ago, and listen to him and fester on Q105. He was just difficult to work with and I had had enough. I think they were afraid I was gonna go across the street. I was paid to sit home for quite a bit. They told me sit tight, they're gonna have something for me. I had always helped out in the sports department, the news talk station. I went to cover Bucks games and the like to help out their sports operation was one man. So you know, they could always use the help and it was something I enjoyed sitting on the sidelines for a while and they had one day the phone rang. I actually was sitting on the sidelines. My job was once a week I had called Gabe Hobbs who was the operations manager and asked him if I could come into work that week. Every Monday, nine o'clock. Hey, Gabe, can I come into work today? No, not this week. Eventually they flipped Well, 50 w d e to sports. Hey, Gabe, can I come into work today? Yes, you can. And here's what we want you to do. And you know, that's that's where it started. Matt Cundill  19:06 I mean, sports in Tampa Bay. Now you're coming out with a station. It's 1996 ish. And sports radio is you know, it's kind of in its infancy. You know, if I think back to wfh and starting, you know, the decade previous it's not a full blown format, but it is a good direction. And Tampa Bay itself has a new hockey team. That's three years old. There's no baseball team that I don't think, but there's still lots of sports around and you'll have enough content. So when you're walking into this new format, and they say this is your new job, what are you seeing and how did you think it was gonna play out for radio? Jason Dixon  19:42 I didn't know what I was doing and it's like, oh, you're the you're the program. Actually, I was the assistant program director of the sports station I asked Gabe. Well, who am I assisting? Nobody. In the in the most clear channel of law Clear Channel ways I was the assistant program I was getting the assistant programmer rate to assist, Nolan. But the broader question is, look, it was a Bucs town. That's That's what people cared about Tampa Bay Buccaneers whether they were winning or losing, it didn't matter. That was that was what was important. So the idea was just build as much content around the Bucs as humanly possible. We, you know, best bucks coverage was just something that we jumped on. I think they use that in Cincinnati with the Bengals or J Core did at the time. Yeah, that was that was the deal. And it was it was personality radio, too. You gotta remember Tampa was a personality radio hotbed. I mentioned Ron and Ron, people, they wanted personality. And we had guys like Steve Dumeg , who was you know, just a lightning rod, the old school yelling scream sports guy, and he did it as well as anybody. We had Chris Thomas, who was you know, local sports anchor who was beloved, just a man of the people. So it was it was personality and books and that's that's what we did. Matt Cundill  21:01 Who's calling Tampa Bay games back in 96? Jason Dixon  21:04 I believe they're still in the country station at that time. Yeah. WQYK so I'm not sure it was making Jean Decker Hoff was still doing it and doing the play by play at the time they did run through a bunch of folks pro wrestler Jesse The Body Ventura was in there with the with Jean at some point. Yeah so they run through a bunch of people, but they settled on they settled on Jean, I think he had started around that time. Matt Cundill  21:27 So you got the Lightning, which Tampa Bay storm? Jason Dixon  21:30 Arena football. Matt Cundill  21:32 Oh, that's right. Jason Dixon  21:34 Yeah. So the Tampa Bay storm is one of the most successful franchises in that league. They started playing at what now is Tropicana Field and would regularly put 20 25,000 people in their front arena football game. Their coach Tim Markham was the Vince Lombardi of arena football. We ended up winning like eight championships in that league. So they were legit. I mean, look, they weren't a ratings play for the radio station. But as far as a night out in Tampa Bay, arena football was was legit. Matt Cundill  22:06 And the Florida Gators who play up in Gainesville, which is a bit of a drive but still a very hot property in that area. Jason Dixon  22:14 Oh, for sure. Yeah, the Gators the Gators when the number one college well, there's the big three Florida, Florida State, Miami, but you know, without a doubt the Gators were worth one. And you know, they were difficult to get because the other competing sports station in town. I know I've mentioned Clear Channel and J Corp and all this stuff. But there was a lot of a lot of movement and people buying people and stations shifting around. But basically the the Gators rights were owned by the other company. Let's put it that way. We couldn't get played by play for the Bucks raise weren't a thing yet. Eventually, we did end up getting getting the Lightning and we had the storm the Arena Football. So we were doing it without the number one play by play. Matt Cundill  22:57 So you started at 12:50am Your part of the transition that went to 6:20am the call letters are still very popular in Tampa Bay. I mean, you must have stories about you know, when you listen to 953 WDAE, you must be able to say I was there at the beginning. Jason Dixon  23:16 Yeah, that's my thing. You know, Joh Momola, gotten to know a little bit and I've had a relationship with every PD that's been at WDAE, and to flip the sports and you know, one of the things I kind of pride myself with, there's probably one or two exceptions now, but I can walk into the door of any place that I worked and be welcome something I take personal pride in. Maybe Detroit and not so much I'm sure we'll talk a little bit but but so I've had relationships with those folks and yeah, it's a sense of pride you know, we we moved 1250 WDAE, to 6:20am which was WSUN at the time the move the call letters there just a rockin signal that, you know, could be heard all across the state. I remember traveling for an arena football game at one point where we landed in Baton Rouge airport and we had to drive to New Orleans and was listening to a race game on WDAE, you know driving to the game from between Baton Rouge and New Orleans so it was a huge huge signal huge move and now they're on FM and you know all that good stuff. But yeah, man it is a point of pride there from from the start and help lay the foundation I hope from to what it's been now and it is the go to the sports station of record in that market still. Matt Cundill  24:31 I've had John on the show twice. Jason Dixon  24:33 Oh, wow. Look at that. He's a two timer. Matt Cundill  24:36 Exactly. So I mean, I'm probably because it's one of the stations that I will listen to for sports, for whatever reason, because it's like well, I think I'll listen to a sports station. I go to that one because it happens to be you know, the one I know. Jason Dixon  24:49 There you go. Well, John's done a done a wonderful job with that. And now I guess he's overseeing FLA as well on the news talk side so you know, great, great work by him. Matt Cundill  24:59 And you yourself, made a transition from radio. I mean, I want to see kinda left radio, but you didn't really you went to go work with the lightning, I think. Jason Dixon  25:09 Yeah, so I was doing I was doing Tampa Bay storm games, rock Riley, who was the sports director of the two stations of FLA. And da was the color man for the storm games, the Arena Football, his wife was about to have a baby gave him the week off, I filled in for him. And I liked it so much, I didn't give him the job back. So I went went over and did that for a whole bunch of years, Lightening The Storm, while not as part of the same ownership group, they had a relationship, we got the Lightning rights. And basically the deal was the Lightning, we negotiated with them, the Lightning was taking their rights in house, which meant they would produce all the programming by the time from us sell the spots and that that's how it would go. So we did gave Dave hops as the lead on the deal and I helped, you know, on the on the programming side putting things together. deal was done. A couple of weeks later, phone rings from the Michael, your mark, who was at the lightning, the VP of sales, I forget his title. And basically Michael was like, We got to produce all this programming. Now we need somebody to oversee it. For us, you know, what's your interest? It was high just because of chance to work for pro sports team. And I think the fine folks at Palace Sports Entertainment who own the Lightning had an over inflated idea of how much a sports radio program director in Tampa Florida made because when they made me the offer significantly more dollars than my friends at Clear Channel were paying me. So they made it a no brainer. Let's let's put it that way. Matt Cundill  26:47 Yeah, it's not it's not even really that far of a jump. It's just really you know, how the money is exchanged between the properties, you essentially become the program director to what is the biggest sports property? I mean, because you had to produce and there was in house sales, there's all sorts of stuff you had to do. Jason Dixon  27:04 Yeah, I had been doing the pre and post game shows for the lightning as an employee, the radio station that was strictly budgetary, the original deal we had called for us to provide that. And there was no one else to do it. So literally, I would do the pre and post game. We had a place wired up outside the dressing rooms to do the intermission interviews. Since I had to be gone all the time, I recruited my wife to produce that she she worked cheap. So yeah, we were just doing what needed to be done. So they had a relationship with me. But yeah, the shift was easy. Now I did have a television component to that, that I oversaw that I wasn't all too familiar with. But I had to I had to learn that business as well. But yeah, it was the job was program director, it was creating content. It was working with the sales team, hey, we've got a client, you know, they need an end game feature. What can we give them working with the talent coaching the talent, hiring talent, and then producing the broadcast the different and the biggest thing was, for me, the competitive factor like every every three months, we get that those ratings come across and you know, didn't were we up where we down? Did we win? What did we lose the hardest adjustment for me, I could have executed the best broadcast in the world on any given night. And if the team lost four to nothing, that broadcast sucked. I could have had the worst night on the air possible. And if we won two to one, it was a great night. So that was the biggest adjustment for me is what we did paled in comparison to you know, the performance of the team on the ice. And by the way, at that time, there were a lot more for nothing losses than there were two nothing wins. So it was difficult at times. Tara Sands (Voiceover)  28:53 Transcription of the Sound Off Podcast t is powered by the You May Also Like podcast, the show about people places and things. Follow the show on your favorite podcast app, or at Youmayalsolike. net. The Sound Off podcast supports podcasting 2.0 So feel free to send us a boost. If you're listening on a newer podcast app. If you don't have a newer podcast app, you can get one at newpodcast apps.com Matt Cundill  29:21 So I look back in that time that you work there in the 2000s and you're an employee of the Tampa Bay Lightning Are you signed to an NDA to never admit that the game sixth goal that Calgary scored was in the net? Jason Dixon  29:36 Oh, it was a legit goal. I mean, the it was a legit no goal. I should say it never went in. I've seen every show me show me an angle that says the puck went in and I will change it but I have not seen one. I tell you what, though, that playoffs was just amazing. The series, part of my gig was for the road playoff games. I was in the booth and I would go down out in the third period, and then conduct the on ice locker room interviews postgame and I remember there was a game against Montreal, we were down by one late and we scored the tie it up late. And the thing the memory for me of that was I've never been in a place that went from so loud. I mean, just so loud to dead silent to you could hear a pin drop when we scored to tie it up and then a minute later, we scored to win the game. And it was just, you know, amazing. But but that final series in Calgary man, hard to be hard to be. Matt Cundill  30:40 Okay o I was in Montreal at that time in 2004. I'm a Habs fan. And I have successfully eliminated all that from my memory. Jason Dixon  30:50 Who was it? It was Vinny Cavalier a scored one and I don't remember the order of it. Maybe Richard score. The other one was right off a draw. It was Yeah. It was amazing. It honestly if you take yourself out of it, and I know the fandom and but literally amazing. Not the athletic accomplishment. But what happened in that arena went from here to Dwayne down here in a moment. So my apologies worked out for me, though. Matt Cundill  31:16 Yeah and at the same time, Videla Cavalier, who is from Montreal, and everybody's kind of like, damn I wish you played for us. Jason Dixon  31:24 Every year, every year. That was the trade rumors, right? But he didn't want to why? Why would you want that pressure? And later same with with Marty St. Louis, that was always an interesting dynamic. When we went to Montreal, I didn't travel all the time, but you know, every couple of months, I'd go on a road trip and then all during the playoffs. And it was always interesting when we went to Montreal, because no matter what, there there was that, you know, When's he going to come here? We're going to trade for Vinnie, this, that and the other thing, and it just never was was meant to be. Matt Cundill  31:56 No, it's exactly what you said and you know, even up to two days ago, even last night, I saw an exchange between a reporter in Edmonton and Tim Peel, the referee, they were going back and forth. And, you know, the reporter asked a question, Tim said, that's a dumb question and this is why free agents don't come to Canada because they're under the microscope. And instead they could go be in Tampa Bay, be the number three or four sports entity in the market live in peace. Their families are happier. It's not like you have to like abandon your family and go on a road trip and say, Oh, honey, take care of things in Winnipeg. Well, I go and, you know, to Arizona and to Anaheim and to Tampa on a road trip. That's not good for relationships. Jason Dixon  32:40 Yeah, yeah and I will tell you this though, the lightning right now are not the number three there, there probably is one a, you know, the bucks and the lightning are right there. And, you know, obviously the Bucks are Brady, definitely higher profile, but lightning have done a lot of winning lately. Matt Cundill  32:58 And when I think of those markets, you know, Tampa Bay really is the exception for the hockey markets. It can easily be one or two, depending on the year and off it is it's not like across the across the swamp there in Florida, where it is perennially a four or five. Jason Dixon  33:14 Yeah, I mean, it's nothing but Tampa is a hockey market and you know, winning a bunch of cups will do that, you know, and people love their lightning. And those those players are stars. And I do want to say something, you know, I mentioned earlier that one of my points of pride is I can walk in almost any place I've ever worked previously, the lightning as an organization, treat their alumni, not just the players, but the people who worked there. When we won the cup, Tim Taylor was our assistant captain and the speech he gave in the locker room was today we walked together forever. That's what he told everybody and that has applied not just to the players, but to the front office staff as well. Not many people that I worked with back then are still there, but I can make a phone call any day of the year. They were here in DC last season, brought my son to the game, you know, was down in the locker room afterwards and you know, breaking point Steve Stamkos, kucha off all posing for pictures, signing autographs, and my kids for no other reason than I was, you know, an alumni of the team and work there. But that organization, Mr. Vinick, just first class top the bottom, and that's just not a me thing. That's anybody from that time is welcome and it's one of those things with sports., a lot of times you can draw a direct line from the top and how they manage the organization to what happens on the field here in DC the commander's with Dan Snyder. You know, you can draw the line in the other direction as well. But but the lightning under under Mr. Vinick just an incredible organization. Matt Cundill  34:49 Why did you go back to radio? Jason Dixon  34:51 Miss the competition. That's probably there was a lot of stress too. So my job expanded. I went from just being the broadcast guy to overseeing game operations so like everything that happened in the arena on the Jumbotron on the ice in between the whistles was all under my purview and that include the sales side, all that stuff. We had put up a new scoreboard in the arena. That was my project. I'm a radio dude. I don't know anything about building scoreboards. Okay, we had a consultant there. And this was a deadline, like we were told what usually was a process. That's a two year process we took care of in one offseason and I was not sleeping, I had to get that project over the hump. By the time they dropped the puck for the first preseason game. That scoreboard had to light up and at the very minimum have a clock scores and penalty clock on it. And that was stressful as hell. I went you know, basically the whole offseason not sleeping. So combine that with my desire to I was a radio guy, man and to get back into it and started kind of sniffing around reached out to Rick Scott, the consultant, you know, asked him if there was anything going on and and you know, things kind of happened from there. Matt Cundill  36:07 Did you go back to the same frequency in the same company? And it maybe it had changed hands or? Jason Dixon  36:11 No, no, I went back I went to Jacksonville. From there I went to tend to excel in Jacksonville, met Steve Griffin, the GM drove to Orlando, met him at the Peabody Hotel, watch the ducks walked by at the Peabody Hotel, and basically hammered out an agreement there. That was a very unique radio station, not a not owned by a corporation, owned by a group of local investors. Frank Frangie, the afternoon host who is a dear friend of mine. Now to this day, basically wrangled this group of local people sold them on how they could make money doing sports radio, and got them to buy a station and it's that one still they're going strong today as well. Matt Cundill  36:59 So Jacksonville is a weird place for sports because well the Jags are there. And what else goes on up there. Jason Dixon  37:07 Florida Gators are the home team man, that was that was it. gators football to a lesser extent basketball. Another weird quirk of that market some of the resort sports golf. The PGA is headquartered there and pawn of Aedra golf moves the needle the Players Championship happens every day every year there and that's the huge event. But you know, the Florida Georgia game in Jacksonville every year is a huge event. So yeah, Jags we're definitely big one on one a were gators and Jags all the time. Matt Cundill  37:41 Jason, did you ever get a chance to go to Che Pare in Montreal? Jason Dixon  37:47 As it was known in the hockey circuit, the ballet, you would go to the ballet. I'm going to tell you what is the scope so John Colin played for the lightning. This was before the cup year, he had had a battle with cancer and had to step aside for a season to you know, treat. I think it was the same thing. Mario had the non Hodgkins lymphoma. And it was just a feel good story. The team wore a little clover, four leaf clover with his number seven in the middle of it on their jerseys. And all year we did stories on colleagues, you know, progression and all that stuff. And thank God he was able to beat it. Come back the next year. But yeah, we ended up going to the ballet one night who's there a bunch of the team and John Colin and it was like you've done all these great feel good stories. And there's the guy you've done all the great feel good stories about at the ballet. Just was a little weird. A little different, but yeah, that was a spot that and Gibby's, Gibby's the steakhouse that's like it's sold stable or something like a military stables that was that was our spots. Matt Cundill  38:59 Gibby's is on Douville down in Old Montreal and where the old ladies will come out and feed you up with salad and garlic bread and then your steak arrives. You're practically already full your stuff. Jason Dixon  39:16 But yeah, it's it's funny. You go to town town and you end up going in the same spots and Gabby's was one of them. I'm not going to talk about how regular the ballet was. But yes, people went I hear. Matt Cundill  39:27 I have a story about the ballet. Jason Dixon  39:29 Okay, let me hear it. Matt Cundill  39:31 So Whitey Herzog, when the Cardinals would play in Montreal, against the expos, it was a weekend series, generally the afternoon game and then you fly out that night to go to the next place. Not when you went to Montreal. That Sunday night they would stay the extra night go to the ballet and they would fly out the next morning. Jason Dixon  39:48 Isn't the rumor that that's where Mario Lemieux met his wife at the ballet for legal purposes that's allegedly but I thought That was that was the rumor at some point, or at least I had heard someone told me. Matt Cundill  40:04 We would not be allowed to speak that way in Canada about this. Jason Dixon  40:08 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, she's probably I don't know Mrs. Lemieux she probably is fine. Fine, young lady. But that was that was the rumor. Matt Cundill  40:17 And then you found your way up to Raleigh. Jason Dixon  40:19 Yes. Matt Cundill  40:19 Again, another market where, you know, the sports stations are popping up the sports is beginning to take hold. You know, hockey had moved down in the around the same time 96 from Hartford, Carolina got an expansion team in the early 90s. And now, we're into sports radio in that market. Jason Dixon  40:38 Yeah. And so I found that like my niche in sports radio was garnering ratings and revenue for stations that didn't have the number one play by play, right? We didn't have the Jags of the Gators in Jacksonville. We didn't have the bucks in Tampa. in Raleigh. We did have the Canes, but they weren't number one. It was the colleges. That was you know, a college town. We had Duke, which from a broadcast perspective was the number three after Carolina and NC State. NC State was on our sister station, which was an AC station. Again, much like you went oh five and Tampa WRAL FM simulcast did the six o'clock news from WRAL TV, they aired North Carolina State football and basketball, they were full service a C didn't have North Carolina, NC State, we had Duke which was number three, and we had the canes, which, you know, at that point, they were in a run of not making the playoffs and not very successful. So yeah, it was totally different market. By the way, Mike and Mike were our morning show and did gangbusters for us their afternoon show Adam Gold, Joe Vyas two extremely talented guys who are perfect for that market had their fingers on the pulse of what was moving the needle, could talk College, could talk hockey, could talk. Carolina Panthers when needed. David Glenn did middays. And he was a, you know, almost an NC State historian or a triangle sports historian in a way. So yeah, that was it. I mean, a hugely successful radio station and got a credit Brian Maloney, the general manager there who recently retired. But he was he was a guy that got it, a general manager that absolutely knew what it took to, you know, get numbers and generate revenue in that market. So, awesome spot. Matt Cundill  42:40 It kind of makes sense. So for your niche to be, you know, the number two or number three property that you could come in, because it's kind of like how you got started with the power pig, right? You know, how to work from below to get to above. Jason Dixon  42:55 Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I don't think in the moment, I realized, that's what I was doing. Like, I didn't consciously say, No, I'm gonna turn down the station with all the number one play by plays and go to work with this one who has none of them? I feel as though you know, at the time, I didn't know it. But in hindsight, yeah, okay, I, that's what I was doing. You know, in the moment, you're just trying to claw and scratch and do what you need to do. Matt Cundill  43:22 There's a bit of an advantage, though, when you don't have sports rights in the building. And that's you can put personalities on the air who can speak a little more candidly about the sports team. And as well, you don't have as much money, obviously, you've got some more money to market with as well. So there are a few advantages when you're not the doing play by play. Jason Dixon  43:41 For sure. It did take off some of the shot and not that not that we I can ever remember, us like going hard after a team. It just didn't make sense, because you still needed them. But it did allow you to go a step further, you know, I've always used the mantra be critical, but fair, give if you're going to be critical, give the team the opportunity to respond. And they appreciate it that you know, as a program director, I had relationships with the PR guys, you know what, day to day, we weren't talking every day, but I always made sure they knew how, you know who I was and how to find me. So if there ever was that little, you know, stuff being on the on the edge and maybe upsetting them, you know, we could talk it through and not have it be in a larger issue didn't always work. Yeah, you know, and it's for the marketing. Yeah, you know, and you have to be creative. You have to be creative found, find ways to attach yourself to that sport, that team, that event that everybody cares about, without officially being attached to it. And you know, that challenged you creatively, emotionally, all that sort of stuff. But yeah, the resources there probably were a little extra resources there because of that. Matt Cundill  44:55 All right, what happened in Detroit? Jason Dixon  44:59 Had to bring that and up. So, in Raleigh, get a call from Fred Jacobs, who decide who I've known Fred a little bit love. Tech survey is one of my favorite things. You know, every year I'm a research geek so even to this day, I love it. Fred said he wants to talk about sports radio knew had been around. Yeah, it was sports radio. It's funny. There's this group of OG sports radio PDs, you know, that were the original group. And there's still a few of us alive and kicking, you know. And so I just thought, hey, maybe Fred's just picking my brain about sports radio. Basically, he was interviewing me for the job and in Detroit, and I spent an hour on the phone with Fred, after that conversation with Fred got a phone call, trying to think whether it was Rick Scott. Yeah, it was from Rick Scott, the consultant, who said, I'm gonna send you an NDA, you need to sign and then we need to want to talk to you about something. So they lay out the plan for Detroit, they had a relationship pounded out with ESPN Radio, which at the time, I didn't care about the content, the programming content as much as I did the play by play because I knew we weren't gonna have any to start, but at least we could say we had, you know, MLB, the NBA Finals, you know, that sort of thing. And they had had a deal with Drew Lane, who had been, you know, the longtime morning guy at riff to come in and do afternoon ons on the sports station. Man, Detroit, you know, bigger market, the chance to launch something from scratch was less something too much to pack up. Brian Maloney my GM at in Raleigh, was from Detroit, went in there and talk to him, Brian, I got this opportunity, man, I don't think I could pass it up. And he was 1,000,000% supportive of that. Totally understood, and, you know, was teary eyed when I left Raleigh, because I truly believe I could still be the Program Director in Raleigh today. If I want, you know, if I wanted to be what am that company? Capitol broadcasting in Raleigh, the best broadcast company you'll ever work for in your life, the Goodman family just awesome. So get up to Detroit. Basically, Drew Lane was the only one that was hired. Matt Derry who worked at the ticket as thinking update guy, and he had been hired to do midday, but his noncompete hadn't run out yet. So I had, I knew I had we were going to launch where Mike and Mike and Colin, God bless those guys. They were never gonna get any numbers in Detroit, Colin Cowherd, Drew and afternoons. And eventually, Matt Dery and middays had to hire is that was it, No promotions people, no, you know, nobody, nobody, no board operators, no producers, nothing. They brought me up there, set me in a hotel lobby, set up a bunch of interviews, and spent all day for two straight days interviewing people, developing a staff not knowing anything about anything, right. And so my strategy was to hire good people first and you know, I figured if I hired good people, we'd have a good staff, and then worried about all the all the radio stuff we launched. And that was probably the highlight. Matt Cundill  48:19 Colin being Colin Cowherd. Jason Dixon  48:21 Oh, yeah, the taking the gig was the no brainer. Getting there and realizing what was really happening. Drew lane, talented guy had no business doing a show on a sports radio station. The concept of drew being successful recreating the morning show he did at riff afternoons on a sports station was never going to work. Matt Cundill  48:47 Yeah, listen, in my head. I can hear this not working. Jason Dixon  48:50 No. Matt Cundill  48:50 But I know you have to take that gig. Would it have worked better if he'd done the morning show. Jason Dixon  48:55 Part of it was drew didn't want to change. We tried to work with Drew to be drew do his show, but realize who he was talking to. Like, I think the the idea was this flood of riff listeners, we're just going to show up and afternoons to listen to Drew, because he was Drew and that never happened. So when that never happened, and we had billboards, Drew was back, blah, blah, blah, built a lot around drew lane. And he don't get me wrong. He was the highest thing on the radio station right, but wasn't enough, and he didn't evolve. And, look, I've dealt with a lot of difficult personalities in my life. And he was one of them. You know, I'm not saying anything I don't think drew would say and drew I don't think I'm not under his Christmas card list either. But he didn't want to change and it was weird because the hole in the market was doing sports, like over on the ticket. They were doing the Tombigbee stuff they were they were you know talking as much about potholes as they were the tigers, and that sort of thing. And the hole in the market was sports, like, let's talk about the lions and the Tigers. And to what extent the pistons in the wings and we did that, we did that when we could, which was basically mid days, we had Mike and Mike in the mornings, that wasn't gonna work. And you know, all credit to Mike and Mike, they came to the market twice during a short period of time to try to make it work. Did remotes for us, so credit to them, but yeah, it just there were so many things wrong and all the while that the station was for sale. So I want to be diplomatic. But I think the statute of limitations has run out. We had buzz night, genius when it comes to rock radio, done no sports radio, Rick Scott, who I love to death, and I got so much, you know, to say about all the great things Rick Scott was doing. He was proposing things that would work for him and other markets, but worked at stations that were in another stage of their development. We needed cume in Detroit, we had TSL, or TSL was better than the ticket, we just didn't have enough people. And it's like, I just bring me people to get under my tent. And I'll get them, I'll get them to stay right. That's my job. I just need help getting people under the tent. So some of the suggestions, the general manager, I've worked for a lot of great general managers, the general manager, there wasn't one of them. And I'm trying not to sound like bitter radio guy, because it all worked out. For me, it was a means to an end for me. So I'm not bitter at all. But this these are just the facts. And look at it look, I'll share it I was the captain of the ship, I'll share my responsibility to for it's not not being successful. But it just that you take in all of those factors. Sales department that was used to sell in rock radio. Yeah, it just wasn't going to work. Matt Cundill  52:00 What I know from everything you've told me, and in that market, Detroit, this sounds like it's going to be very difficult. Colin coward. For instance, you now have a wasteland in the middle. And there's nothing a Colin is my favorite show. But but he's not going to be talking about Detroit, unless he wants to talk about how dysfunctional the lions are. He'll never talk about the Red Wings. He's not going to talk about baseball, unless it's like July, which he takes most of it off, you know, and your morning show is Mike and Mike, which I think is a good morning show. And I guess what I would ask for you right, right now because I kind of miss the era. How did that show land for America? Because I remember, you know, it was Mike Greenberg and Mike Goldberg, right and then they had this chemistry. I listened to the show, it worked and then one day they broke up. Jason Dixon  52:48 It was Good Morning America. It was it was the today's show for sports. My experience was it worked awesome and medium markets that didn't have you know, a college town like Raleigh that didn't have MLB, where there was a game every night to talk about or the NBA or NHL where there was a game every night. So it worked well there because they were you know, they used the resources of ESPN effectively and brought in, you know, their reporters and guests and everybody who worked on that staff to discuss sports, you know, that I back row level. And then you localized it with your local updates and stuff when you could. So yeah, it was I mean, it was a generic, non risky, you know, they were never going to say anything to get you in trouble, which may have been probably the only flaw in that show. When times were when it was time to be critical. But yeah, they they were a great team, a Hall of Fame team. And, you know, you'll have to ask them about the dynamics of the breakup. I've heard things, you know, they went their separate ways. And that was that and frankly, ESPN struggled to your recapture that lightning in the bottle a little bit. Now, my guy Evan Cohen's doing the morning show there now, who, you know, is is awesome. I love Evan to death. So hopefully he'll, you know, have a ton of success there. Matt Cundill  54:10 Your time in Detroit sounds like my time in Montreal, where there was a lot of people who had a lot of advice about the people that the listeners already had their mind made up on. Jason Dixon  54:21 I mean, yeah, I mean, in hindsight, look, it just was never gonna work. And yeah, for Dave Shor came in after me. Scott mosteller was put in a weird spot as they brought him in as kind of a consultant. And their intention was to offer him the job might offer him my job while I was still in the seat, and while he was sitting across the desk, consulting with me and Scott and I are friends, so that was weird, but whoever was in the PD chair was not going to have success. There was just so many factors going against that radio station and a great staff by the way, Ryan Armani, Rico beer Grieco is doing well, with Valenti. Now on the ticket map. Dairy was great. Drew was on an island man, that was the other thing. Drew wasn't part of our staff, like Drew would show up at things when he had to. And the rest of the staff resented that a little bit. Hey, we're going out for beers tonight. And Drew in there. But look, I don't want to come across as bitter because I'm not I honestly, I'm so far removed from that. And it's led to a wonderful thing. It's Sirius XM. But it was a disaster. Disaster. Matt Cundill  55:34 So I don't have any Sirius XM subscription. My only experience with it is when I rent a car, and it's it's always been a good experience. You know, it really feels to me like Sirius XM is what radio used to be. Yes, I'll start from the music side, because that's what I that's what I listened to when I listened to something like Octane. Or if I listened to, you know, just one of the music channels. It kind of feels like radio. Jason Dixon  56:00 Yeah. And I think there is a desire, there's a generation out there that had to make their own playlist. Right? That's work. And a lot of times people are turning to the radio to relaxed and not work. And I think we're thinking seeing things shifting, shifting from I'm going to make my own playlist. I don't care what the DJ on the radio plays a little bit back to the hey, let's get some smart people to curate music for us and feed it to us right? Look, you can listen to any song you want now on demand in a moment, but yeah, it's jocks, reapers and music, short talk breaks. And usually the jocks you know, our 90s on nine channels downtown, Julie Brown and Lisa low or 80s on a channel is the MTV VJs. So you know, the jocks have have a little cachet. And oh, by the way, I should mention my guys Spyder Harrison now on 90s on 9 doing some stuff, but the jocks have some cachet. And it's just given the people what they want human curated music. And I think there's something there's still something there with that. Tara Sands (Voiceover)  57:11 The Sound Off Podcast with Matt Cundill. Matt Cundill  57:14 How did the opportunity to become the director of sports programming come to you? And what does it entail exactly? These are the conversations that I've always wanted to have with you at the bar, whether it's you know, Podcast Movement, or any of the radio events where I've seen you, I've always wanted to have this like, Oh, my God, it sounds huge. Jason Dixon  57:33 So Detroit ends and this is where I'll give greater mini media credit. We had sent nasty grams back and forth, right? You're not performing blah, blah, blah. And I said, Oh, yeah, well, contractually, you said you were gonna do this and you haven't. So that was happening, right? Eventually, I went up to the GM, Steve to sorry, and said, Look, you don't want me here. I don't want to be here. Let's figure this out. I said, my kids are in school until July. I don't remember what month this was. But my kids are in school till July, you pay me until July. I'll go away. You hire whoever you want to hire, but I'll be a resource for you and help you out. However I can. In the interim. They said, that's a good idea. Then that afternoon, I had papers in my hand and was packing up my desk. So that happens, and you know, my approach was, it's time to immediately start the job search. My job now is to find the next job. Apply to a bunch of places. You know, we'll get into specifics of where, who I talked to and all that stuff. But Taylor's Zarzer, who now is part of the management team on our PGA channel, but he was doing college sports radio at the time, and maybe a show on the Golf Channel, as well. He used to do afternoons in Charlotte. And we simulcast did that Charlotte show on our radio station in Raleigh said a little bit of a relationship with Taylor. So I saw Sirius XM was hiring different positions in the sports department, not the one that I got hired for. So I called Taylor. And I said, Hey, Taylor, I'm not asking you to put in a word for me, right? All I'd ask is that if you could just make sure my stuff gets on the desk of the person that's making the decision, who I didn't know at the time, Taylor said, You know what, I'll do my best. Within a couple of days. I got a call from Steve Cohen, who was the former's Senior VP of sports at Sirius XM, one of the smartest Sports Radio guys I've ever met. And he's now a consultant for us. Well, it was his assistant that called me to set up the call got on the phone with with Steve and we just shot the breeze about sports for an hour. I was the voice of the arena football team in Tampa he did a season calling arena football games in New Jersey for the New Jersey red dogs. Talked about different, you know philosophies of sport just not an interview, just shooting the breeze and it was an awesome conversation. It ended with Robert we'll be in touch. We want to bring you up to New York. The next week. I was in New York City, Brian Hamilton, who was a VP at the time Chris Eno. Met with me first in New York. Then went sat down with Steve Cullen started talking and he started asking me about all these different sports NASCAR. I'm like, Well, I grew up in Florida. You know whether you're a NASCAR fan or not the Daytona 500 is kind of in your blood, but it's a thing there and I became a NASCAR fan. I enjoyed it. Golf my time in played into golf, football. We just went back and forth. After the initial meeting, I met with Scott Greenstein, for a hot minute. Scott was awesome. Scott's just such a smart guy, when it knows when it comes in knowing what works in our business, went back to Steve's office. And he said, you know, you're hired and I'm like, okay, what's the job like and he said, to help make us better, that that's what I want you to do is help make us better. gotten the car on the way home called my wife, and I'm like, well, and he hired me to go to DC, the DC office call my wife said, we're moving to Washington, DC. She's like, What? Yeah, they hired me. Well, what are you doing? I said, I really don't know. And got the offer letter. The job title was director of sports programming in Washington, DC, and showed up there and went to work. That was that not really much of a, you know, a job description to follow. It was just go to work. Matt Cundill  1:01:43 It's kind of like managing, you know, a bunch of podcasts as it were, like, we had Brian Goldmark on from locked on and that's what he does he manages like all these properties for no podcast in various markets, but just one of and here you are, you've got channels, but their channels are things that you've worked in before. Because as you mentioned, you know, golf, you have experienced with the SCC, and there's a channel for that, you know about talent, and you know, mad dog has his own channel, I believe. So you've got all this stuff and NASCAR was was another one, obviously a ton of NHL experience. So I'm not here to rehire you for your job again. But yeah, it makes sense. Jason Dixon  1:02:23 What what I found was all of our pro, we've got a smart, smart group of programmers, one of the awesome things about Sirius XM is the first desire is to promote from within, right, that's, that's the mantra there is, let's do we have someone in our house that can do the job. And a lot of our program directors came up within the system of Sirius XM, and never worked in terrestrial radio, and didn't have some of those life experiences, you know, from a professional standpoint of that you get when you're a PD for first Fourth Station. And I think that was some of the color that I was able to provide for them is here's how we've done it in other places, and adjusting it to to what fits in satellite because the mission is different. For satellite radio, the most difficult part of the job was to tread lightly, knowing knowing I'm an outsider knowing that, you know, these people have been here doing the job well, for this long. Well, you know, what is he here for what's his, you know, and trying to make it clear to all those programmers, look, I'm just here to help. I have no desire to, you know, I'm not here to interfere with what you're doing. I'm just here to take the good work you're doing and try to find a way to make it a little better. Matt Cundill  1:03:38 I'm not from radio to bring all the bad habits here. Jason Dixon  1:03:41 Yeah, yeah and, you know, look, we don't get ratings, our jobs all every one of us that works at Sirius XM, our mission, our job is to get a subscriber to swipe a credit card for another month of Sirius XM. How we accomplish that is different. The people on our Golf Channel provide, you know, do it by providing best in class talk about golf, people on our, you know, soccer channel, same deal. You know, I'm not quite sure how I directly contribute to that, but I try my best. But that's our mission. Matt Cundill  1:04:16 You say you don't get ratings, by the way, but you kind of do. That would be tech survey and Fred Jacobs. Were sort of shows the usage that their P one listeners would say yeah, I will dabble in to sports radio. Also Edison comes out with studies, as well. It shows a listing ship, but I think what's really important to let people know is that it's always going up. It's not like when people talk about the demise of radio going down and cume loss, that doesn't affect what you guys are doing. Jason Dixon  1:04:49 No, um, you know, those are all data points for us and we do our own internal research as well. And part of my job, by the way is to keep track of the best practices As of terrestrial radio, you know, what are they doing? It's different. Because listening habits, right are the same, it doesn't matter what input button, you press on your car stereo, whether it's am FM, satellite, whatever, you know, if you're in the car for 12 minutes, you're in the car for 12 minutes. And that's that. But yeah, so, you know, it's interesting, we get all these different data points, you know, and we get broad research, we get narrow research on our on our channels, we take all those into consideration, but and we have streaming data, too. But really, none of those are true action items, right? We're never going to take a piece of research and decide to hire or fire our hosts based on that. Whereas with AMFM, you know, the Nielsen numbers aren't what they're supposed to be, well, maybe that's, you know, we need to make a change with that show. And our personnel changes, you know, I don't even want to get into personnel changes as much as look, it's the your test for us. It's Are we are we creating good radio that our subscribers want. And yeah, we do get that that feedback, but that's one of the things that I always talk with our program directors about is they have a thirst for information, they want data, they want to know, Hey, was that did people listen to that show and my message is always kind of be careful what you wish for. Because maybe that great show that passed the year test, or all of us didn't garner the numbers we thought it would be, it's not as significant to us, you know, the way we structure sports radio, we have an NFL channel and a soccer channel and a Golf Channel. We're super serving those audiences right. So as long as we're doing content that pleases the golf fan, we win. And when we're not, then then then we lose. But yeah, you're right, it is growing. We just had a big press event. Last week, as we record this, to launch our new app experience, which, you know, I'm fortunate enough to be involved with that and be in beta testing right now. And it's a game changer for our, our listeners, and discovery of content and that sort of thing. So yeah, it's only getting bigger, and I credit our company with realizing they just can't sit back and be, you know, the king of the car and the satellite radio side of things. They've got to be able people got to take the content with them. And and be, you know, that's keeping up with the Joneses. Right? And so, this is a huge step in that process. But yeah, it is growing, you know, it's growing and doing well. Matt Cundill  1:07:26 Yeah, and so to that, you're not going to be getting rid of your EA Sports channel or fantasy sports. I mean, somebody always needs that information. So it's always going to be there. I mean, you just can't compare your NFL channel against your other ones. Jason Dixon  1:07:39 No, and, and look, you know, from a local perspective, Wi Fi or the sports hub, right? They're going to be talking eagles and patriots or whatever, you know, we're going to be talking NFL, and we're going to be spending a segment on the Eagles. We can't compete with that we're not going to hyper localize them to death. But what we can do that, you know, maybe the local station can't is, you know, we got Phil Simms on, you know, talking about him or, you know, you know, on on you know, Coach K is talking college basketball on our college sports channel, you know, that's, that's the separator is we're not going out localized the local station. But we're going to have people credibility, talking in these various niches, niches, however, you're supposed to say it nowadays, at a high level that you're just not going to get anywhere else. Matt Cundill  1:08:34 So from a technology perspective, because I've got a fun car upstairs, that I actually bought, so that I could play with the technology. And you know, Apple CarPlay was important to me. But now I want to make a jump to Sirius XM and bring that into the vehicle. Are you talking about changes that would just allow me to use an app in order to get access? Or do I still want to live on the satellite? Jason Dixon  1:08:59 When ever anybody asks me about Sirius XM, the first thing I tell them is either get the app only subscription or make sure the app is included in your subscription, which it is and most of them, but yeah, I have. I drive I drive around Washington, DC. So I have a car that's like for city life, meaning it's gonna get dinged up. I have a 2014 Volkswagen Jetta that I drive around in that I put an aftermarket radio that has Sirius XM on it, but most of the time, I'm plugging in and using the car play version of the app, the new the new version of the app that launches on the 14th of December is just next level. Now I will say it's not going to be complete on the 14th it's, you know, version, a lot of what's going to build to be something really really great, but a huge leap and improvement but yeah, I would someone was asking me today The best way to go about becoming a Sirius XM subscriber, I would say by the Yep, subscription. If you've got a car you can plug your phone into, that's the way to go. Come the 14th of December, the experience will be greatly improved. Matt Cundill  1:10:09 I can hear the podcast section of the audience kind of screaming, Is this why you kill the Stitcher app? And I'm like, maybe possibly, but it's also a good time to just ask you like, you know, Sirius XM has a podcast strategy, simple cast is a part of that, you know, Stitcher was a part of that. And how does it all integrate and come together for you guys? Jason Dixon  1:10:31 So all this podcast contents available on the Sirius XM app. I got to double check to make sure this one is if not, it should be I know people that can make it happen. Matt Cundill  1:10:42 But I'm in I'm in Pandora which which you guys own too. Jason Dixon  1:10:45 Well, well, then you should be you should be good. But yeah, the idea is to make it an audio destination. One of the biggest challenges with Sirius XM, is people have their five, six presets, right, and that's where they go. But in reality, there is so much content available to them that the person doesn't know about. And that's where the app changes things. The app, you know, knows what you've listened to, we'll we'll recommend new things to you that you might not even know existed yet. It's there for you. Pretty, pretty wild tech, you know, as far as what I've seen so far in the beta testing, but I feel that the people that use the app go much deeper into what we have than just the people that listen to the radio. And, you know, that's, that's the goal is, you know, for us to keep people on their platform, we just want people to realize how much they're getting for their for their money that they're paying us each month. Yeah, you know, Howard's awesome, Howard is the goat, right. And if you love him, and FL, NFL is there, if you know, he loves the games, we have every game. But there's also this special because you know, Jimmy Fallon was in the studio the other day and doing this, and, you know, hey, you know, Will Ferrell dropped by to talk about that, that you may not ordinarily discover, but it's there for you. And that's that's where the app that the app comes in. And that's, by the way, one of my cents, I have to go to our New York, I have to, I go to our New York facility once a month, spend the day up there. And one of the great joys that I have is we have this video screen in the lobby that welcomes the different guest every day. And you know, being a guy came up in music, radio and pop culture and and all that stuff outside of just being sports guy. When I was there last Thursday, Jimmy Fallon was in the building. I'm a huge Prince fan and a while back, the revolution was there and I, you know, went to our PR folks, I'm like, I need to get a picture with the revolution. And, you know, just stuff like that. You just never know who's gonna be in there on a given day. Last month, I walked by Cardi B, I didn't. I probably couldn't kick Cardi B out of a lineup. But I like brush shoulders with her, the guy I was walking with was like, you just, you know, brush shoulders with Cardi B I'm like, Okay, that's cool. So that's, that's the stuff that's happening. Where we work now is is you know, on any given day, there's those type of people doing unique things on the radio. And our job is to help you discover that right? Matt Cundill  1:13:20 Well, it's wild, what do you think about the future of terrestrial radio, as you see it from where you sit now, because you have so much experience with it doing doing the music, and then the sports and where it sits now, I get my updates every day from you know, from Jason Barrett, Barrett Sports Media, I can I can follow along and see it, but what do you see that I may not be seeing? Jason Dixon  1:13:44 I love my brothers and sisters in am FM radio, I will never talk bad about those folks. The fact of the matter is, when you compare the product that FM AMFM. You know, let's just use talk or sports talk for as an example, when you compare the product, what they turn out versus what we turn out. Not saying just the content, the overall product. The bottom line is you can get in the car, and your entire commute could be a spot set, FM radio, right? We play commercials, it's not nearly as many I just feel. I know they have a business to run and I know it cost a lot to do it. But it just seems weird to me that when it comes time to figure out how to I don't know pay the bills that the the first instinct is let's get rid of the content creators not looking at it from the 10,000 foot view will crap you know there's 40 minutes of content in the hour. And even in that content we're you know that sponsored by this and ended by that I don't know the end Sir, but I just know the product isn't great right now. And the fun factor isn't there. Look, the 90s were a different time and the power pig is never going to come back. It's that's just a fact it. That was a time and place for that has passed. But our radio stations haven't fun anymore. In Detroit and this is early 2000s. We didn't have the rights to the lions. We couldn't be live at training camp. We went to the place that bordered the lions training camp asked if we could broadcast from there, rented a scissor lift. And, you know, put our host up on a scissor lift above lions training. That's the fun stuff. And I'm not saying peds aren't doing fun stuff. But like that fun factor, I just don't feel like it's very prevalent. It's very safe right now. It's very vanilla and you know, have some fun, bring smiles to people's faces. That's that's what I would, I would say, but I love my ammunition brothers. I really do. I, you know, I go to conferences. It's funny. You mentioned you see me at conferences, and it's, it's so funny. I feel sometimes like I'm the spy in the middle of the room. You know, they're going through all these presentations. And Sirius XM, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm like kind of hiding. But I love you guys. I really do. I'm not here to you know, take food off your plate, I want you to succeed. But yeah, man, it's just tough. And it's nobody's fault. There's a business to run and the economics of it suck. But the product just isn't great right now. Matt Cundill  1:16:32 Yeah, it is costly. In Canada, we have a glut of sports, radio stations are on AEM. Because of you know, regulations, as it were, nobody took care of the regulations for 20 years. So we never got to move them over to FM. And now they're just closing them. Because they just cost money and I who am I to say anything because I wouldn't buy it for $1. And it's it's just that's where the technology is at. And if I were to run all the podcasts that I managed 24/7 I wouldn't be able to make any money back. It would just, it would cost so much. Jason Dixon  1:17:05 Yeah, the economics of this is great. And, you know, what are the consumers been conditioned to? It's like, yeah, good content, cost money. And so, you know, most podcasts are on the the, you know, trying to use the business model being ad based. And it's a tough road, you know, that's a tough road to try to try to make your money back subscription services like ours. I don't know how many outside of the video streaming services, and Sirius XM, who's putting their stuff behind a paywall and making a ton of money right now? I'm not sure. It's just what the consumers expect. They want they want it free, because that's what they think it should be and that's it ain't free cost money. Matt Cundill  1:17:46 Very difficult to charge for a podcast when there's 4 million that are free. Jason Dixon  1:17:50 Right. And it's, you know, it is it's it's a tough, tough business. And I wish all them the best, the starting point seems to be how can we, you know, offset the cost and make revenue. It's almost like let's reset and strive to create the best product we can and then make money off of it, you know, and find out how we can monetize it just isn't going to work. And today's is I wish I had the NFL I guess I did have the answer. I probably wouldn't be sitting here talking to you today. Matt Cundill  1:18:26 I wouldn't have to do this podcast. Jason Dixon  1:18:28 Exactly. But it's just you know, I love my people. I love the folks doing it, my friends. It's just the product is a difficult listen right now compared to what I listen to on a daily basis. Matt Cundill  1:18:40 Jason, this marks the very end of me going to conferences and saying I really should do an episode with that guy. Jason Dixon  1:18:46 Yeah, I know. Maybe we should have put this off a little longer. Just erase the tape and maybe next conference. No, this has been fun. And you know, in some ways, it's been like a therapy session. I listened to the call at your podcast all the time. I love hearing radio people talk about radio and the different perspectives that they bring. So you know, it's it's an honor that you asked. Matt Cundill  1:19:14 Therapy, that'll be $195. Jason Dixon  1:19:17 Well, hell while we were doing this, I paid 185 for the guy to fix my washing machine. So what's another couple 100 bucks. Matt Cundill  1:19:28 Thanks, man. Jason Dixon  1:19:29 Thank you. Tara Sands (Voiceover)  1:19:29 The Sound Off podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminsky, edited by Chloe Emond-Lane, social media by Aidan Glassey. Another great creation from the Sound Off Media Company. There's always more at soundoffpodcast.com.

It's been 3 and a half years since we have had Steve on the show. The last time I spoke to him, we were trying to figure out how morning shows were going to do what they do everyday... but from home. We pick up where we left off with my first question, "Are we back to Normal?" (As if there was any normal to go to back to) In this episode, Steve and I discuss how his coaching business evolved through the pandemic with less travel but more meetings, morning show dynamics, and I learn thar benchmarks on a show are as important as ever. We also spent a fair bit of time on mentorship and why Steve has a personal policy of always helping others regardless of personal gain. I also made reference to the Podcast Superfriends episode with Jay Nachlis from Coleman Insights. You can find that episode here and in YouTube form here. I mention that because Steve and I recorded this for video and you can find that right here. A transcription of this episode can be found here. TRANSCRIPTION Tara Sands (Voiceover) 0:02 The sound off podcast. The show about podcast and broadcast. starts now. Matt Cundill 0:12 Steve Reynolds is back on the show to talk about coaching radio talent. The best part about these episodes with Steve are all the great tips and tricks that you pick up. But often I find it's the stuff we already know that we're reminded we should be doing more of that benefits us most. Steve last appeared on the show in the early days of the pandemic. So although it might feel like yesterday, it's been three years since he's been on this show. Steve Reynolds joins me from Raleigh, North Carolina. Are we back to normal? And by that, I mean, you and I had some discussions during the pandemic, in the first couple of months, please put your pants on and go to work and get dressed like everyone else, some of the best advice that was out there, but in the rearview mirror now, when that started March 2020. And we came out of the gates guns blazing with great ideas on how to do your show from home. Are we back to normal now? Steve Reynolds 1:05 I think normal has changed. And from my vantage point, it's to the better. Who knew about all of this video stuff until that happened. And I get a lot more out of seeing people, I mean, the most you get is being in the room with them. And that does not happen all that often any longer. Because you know, it's expensive money and no one has that. So that's been alleviated. And I can travel if I ask. And I do think there are times it's important, I'm with them. And we are all together for more than just an hour. But I like the zooms. The downside is that during the boring calls, I can't be folding the laundry or mute emptying the dishwasher. I'll pause for everyone to nervously chuckle That that's what I was doing. Or maybe that a show that I worked with in the past things was that us? So let's pause for that. I like it because body language says everything to me. And I can engage people and see see them. And if I see someone drifting, maybe because they got up at three o'clock in the morning, or this might just not be resonating with them or host of other reasons. I could say, you know, Hey, Carl, you know, what are your thoughts on that? And I think that at the end of the day makes it better. I think the coaching is easier because of Matt Cundill 2:27 that. What is something that's going to make you say I think I need to get on an airplane to go visit this morning show? Steve Reynolds 2:33 Awesome question. If I don't have a formed relationship with the team recently had that in the last few months, there was a team brand new team that I was asked to launch on a radio station, and it just, it just wasn't clicking, couldn't feel each other. And so I said to the company, I gotta go. And they said, Fine, go. And I went did it. Everything became right, because we could sit in a room and bullshit and laugh and I could make jokes and tell stories. And I mean it. That's the thing that would make me walk in if I've never shaken your hand most of them I've been with. That's critical relationships are everything. Matt Cundill 3:12 Are you busier than you were than 2019? Steve Reynolds 3:16 Yep. Everywhere that everyone now understands. Finally, hey, all we got is you. If we're if we're expected to make money for the mothership, we got to have you your will put the soul into the brand. You're the face of trust in humanity, and you're the face of the community. So yeah, I'm busier than I ever have been. I turned stuff down. I just very fortunate to be around companies that really understand the value of talent. I think that there's some companies on my roster that may not have that image in the industry. But I know the inner workings and I'm part of those conversations at the highest levels of the company and they do Matt Cundill 3:59 you know, this is the first time you and I have gotten together to do this podcast that involves video. So the first time we did it, it was audio only second time audio only we could look at each other but it wasn't story and for video. Here we are now 2023 videos all the rage. And so now you've got morning shows that you know and especially older talent, who maybe started to get into radio now there's a camera in the control room in the studio. Do you have any coaching advice for the relationship between doing great radio and there being a camera in the control room as well? Steve Reynolds 4:34 Well, you don't need to put on a shirt and tie. You don't even need to shave every day people like real and it's additive to our brand because it's just another way in which they can have a relationship with us. It's kind of like the people that say, Oh, this whole social media that that'll all you know that'll blow over. It's a fad. It's not a fad. I mean, there's just when I was on the air, it was just us and maybe a cup We'll have other stations in the market, that work that mattered that had good shows. Now it's everywhere. And if we want to be competitive and be successful in both ratings and revenue, we're going to meet people wherever they are. And what's the downside of putting the camera in? Are you willing to grow your skill set? Do you feel like you have to to be successful. And so every brand evolves, staying in the same spot is not an option. Standing still is not an option for anyone for me, for you for the show's got to evolve. What Matt Cundill 5:33 has changed between morning shows in terms of you know, where they might go off the rails? So in the past, it's always been a little bit about roll definition. And maybe the hosts aren't getting along for a particular reason. Are there any new reasons why morning shows might not get along, because of some of the new pressures that might be out there to perform social media members on the team dynamics inside a radio station? What's changed inside the control room? You know, for relationships with morning shows? I Steve Reynolds 6:03 don't know that I've got a great answer. My instincts are that nothing's changed. It's all about personalities, and ego in some regard. And culture drives everything. So when I get involved, I ask questions like, tell me about your relationship with each other? How do you resolve arguing? What commitments do you have of the others? What expectations do you have of me? What are you willing to sacrifice for success? How are we going to navigate the rough waters of dysfunction when we have them? Because we will, because you just do? How will we resolve all of that stuff? I think if we have a document, not a literal document, although I've done those, but if we understand how we're going, what kind of relationship we want to have, what kind of show we want to have, we'll all tend to row in the same direction. I have a show recently that went off the rails. The reason is inconsequential, I would tell you, and you would say oh, that again. Because it just happens, right? And I pinged the anchor at what I heard about heard about it from the program director. I ping the anchor at three o'clock in the afternoon, I was out walking my dogs. And I ping the anchor, I said, you have a minute, I knew exactly what would happen. And the anchor called and I said to them, I hear this is going on. And then that got my ear tucked off, in which happens and I said, question, who's going to show leadership here and resolve all this? Who's gonna do it? You? Others? How about all of you. And I was told that by five o'clock, it was all resolved. Sometimes you just got to unstick people when those things happen, but I don't know that there's anything new that could send it off the rails. We all have to check our egos, right. I mean, we're ego driven people, our insecurities are front and center me included. I'm on that list. And if we can have a moment of maturity, we can get everyone right. Because I will say at the end of the day, our I was on a webinar yesterday with audit the Odyssey people I was doing a talent webinar with them a couple 100 People someone said, is there another metric by which another way in which we can judge the success of the show? Other than ratings thought it was a fabulous question. Most days, I don't know the ratings of the shows that I work with. Maybe that's wrong, maybe I should know all of them. Maybe I should know every demographic and break down how we're doing. For me, the North Star is the strategy. What's our content strategy? What's our philosophy of positive culture in the room? That to me is the North Star because we control all of that ratings, I got nothing to do with Nielsen ratings will come if our culture is strong, and our strategy is solid and unique and being executed. Do Matt Cundill 8:45 benchmarks matter? More or less these days? More? Steve Reynolds 8:49 You've got to have them I mean, people wake up, there's a lot of clutter in people's lives. So I'll flip it on you because I know you work out of your home, right? Correct. What time you wake up 630 Okay, what's the very first thing you do when you get out of bed? The very first thing you do pee. Thank you, everyone bypasses that but that's what we all do. What's the second thing you do? Alexa, start my day. Okay, what's the third thing you do? iPad? Okay. So you have a routine that you follow every morning I do to everyone else does. And why do you follow that routine because when you wake up you're tired and physically and spiritually and emotionally you are at a low ebb and the routine acclimates you into your day it wakes you up. For me it's P turn on my kettle for tea as I walked to the back door to let the dogs out. Then I give the dogs a treat. And then I come into the office I forgot I went into the closet and put on my love The Blue lands and terrycloth bathrobe, I say that so you have the picture of what what I'm dressed in benchmarks are part of a routine. And we have to wedge ourselves as a show into the routine of the audience. And part of what does that our benchmarks, and we have to create appointments for the audience to force our show into the routine of what they do. So at 730 in the morning, when I'm in my car, driving to my office, and I'm in front of the Home Depot, show X is blanking, boom, if we get wedged into that routine, our ratings go up, and we earn imagery faster. So yes, benchmarks are super important. And Matt Cundill 10:41 I think when I look back at 2020, aside from the cars disappearing from the road, which meant the listeners were disappearing, all of our times had changed. And those benchmarks kind of got blown out of the water. So when I see cars back on the road, I get excited, again, for benchmarks and finding out how important they are. And yes, we were starting our days, 75 minutes later. And there have been some repercussions. I do believe from the pandemic a little bit quieter on Monday a little bit quieter on Friday, there's still work from home that goes on. But it's good to know that benchmarks are alive and well, right. Steve Reynolds 11:16 And then of course, there's the other side of that equation, which is we have to conquer content, we've got to be on the right content, we have to conquer content, we have to create connection, so that if a connection is created between you and the listener, then that's another reason to turn the show on. Because, you know, in this age of iPads, and iPhones and texting and WhatsApp and all of that nonsense, and maybe I'm a man of a certain age saying this, I'll admit that nothing ever beats the human touch that's radios, superpower. And if I feel like I know you and have that relationship with you, and I wake up in the morning, and I'm technologically driven, not in a literal sense, but my car is all about, I got Alexa in my car, I got Siri in my car, it's like, if I feel like I need human connection, I You're doing the right content, and I come to you. Now you're a friend. And that's another reason to get loyal to your brand. What about the role of traffic and weather? Why not? Depends on how it's done. I mean, I know shows in all markets that shed that stuff. I think that's a missed opportunity. Because I think if done the right way, it's another it's another vehicle by which you can connect with the audience. So sunny today with a high of 83 is not as great as communicating that we live here too. And this is what our day is going to be like because it's going to be sunny in 83. Plus their sponsor bowl opportunities, we got to create reasons to bring revenue in. Yeah, I'm all for it. I like news being done. But I like news being done a certain way. The news, it's not about the communication of information. What's your take on it? Well define ourselves by sharing our life vulnerability and being honest about the stories of the day. So XYZ stories happening, what do you think, just be honest with them. And that forms the connection, just want to roll back Matt Cundill 13:06 a little bit to you know, what you said about morning shows, and talent, needing to be in connection with the listener, and you wrote a really good piece, paying attention to your listener, I think, you know, dovetailing that a little bit further and that's having some some empathy. And then going a little bit further, I'm like, Well, can we listen to the people who are listening to us and what they want to say. So what is the the opportunity that talent have to connect with the audience at a deeper level. Steve Reynolds 13:37 So we are all conditioned to never hear back from anyone. In that piece, I talked about a car brand that I was loyal to that told me expressly years ago, our goal is that you will have no human contact with our company. It will all be apps and bots. I'm like, again, maybe this is man of a certain age chat. I require the conversation. And so that ends up being a differentiator in a world where we don't expect it. I've given shows an idea called Your call is important to us. And that's not a revolutionary idea. And I liked the name of it, but it's not one that's going to set the world on fire. But I'm like, what businesses in town when you call you actually get someone on the phone to help you. In a world of press one for this and press two for that. I've been out with shows before where their talents recognized and they don't know what to do with it. Some don't know what to do with it. But if you spend time saying to people, how are you and tell me about your life and your son? What sport does he played if you only need to do a little of that? They don't expect it and so when you beat those expectations, they rave about you. And that's what that's all about. And again, that's hard. That's that's super hard is to do what no one else is doing to set yourself apart. Matt Cundill 14:58 I was watching my behavior You're trying to get attention from somebody in politics, a member of parliament as it were. And they didn't respond to me for five months. And when they finally did five months later, they apologize for it. But I felt like they were my best friend, after they wrote back and said, what I wanted to hear. Yep. Steve Reynolds 15:16 You just needed someone to hear you out. Right? So when I was on the air prior to the internet, you know, our general manager used to who was a master at replying to complaints about the show, he had a standard line to the US that I always loved. He would say, a quarter million people listen to Steven Kevin, every week. And our goal is never is never to upset anyone. And we've upset you, they've upset you. So please accept my apologies as their manager, and I will absolutely share this letter with them. And people became bigger fans of the show, because they were heard. So on social media, et cetera, when people call the request lines, you know, these are your customers. Just listen to them. Thank them love them. Matt Cundill 16:07 I remember how excited I was to meet you the first time. Do you remember where it was? Steve Reynolds 16:13 Was it Canadian Music Week? Matt Cundill 16:15 conclave? Steve Reynolds 16:16 I apologize. I don't remember that. But Matt Cundill 16:18 that's okay. It could have been any it could have been Canadian Music Week too. Because again, the inside of all those places do look the same. I guess now with the disappearance of the Conclave, Canadian Music Week is sort of transition to Radio Days worldwide radio Summit, that's not there anymore. And you know, for what you and I do, which is, you know, get out and go and meet people at these places. What do you look at as being the calendar because there are less of them, there's less opportunity to go out as an industry to get together to meet one another. And I, that's tough. I miss it. Steve Reynolds 16:53 I miss that too. And I apologize, I didn't remember that. I'll lean on the man of a certain age excuse for the third time. You Matt Cundill 17:01 should not by the way, apologize for any of that. Because either Canadian Music Week or Conclave, I was doing the tour and going to for these a year. But now there's only like rolling, we're traveling less. So it's like one or two things, Steve Reynolds 17:12 Matt, it's Jewish guilt. 6000 years of Jewish guilt, let it happen. You know, I have this policy, that if any talent reaches out to me and says, I need help with you listen to this AirCheck I have this personal policy, to never say no, I say this now here in this forum with you. And if I say if you are confident, and aggressive enough to send me an email and say, here's who I am, here's where I am, I get no feedback. Will you listen to a few breaks and send thoughts? My answer 100% of the time is yes. And I don't do it to get you as a client. I don't do it for any gain. I'm not looking for a mug or a t shirt. I'm doing it because I I always say my only expectation is that you do it for someone else. Because we're a small little industry now what's left of us. And if we're just not professional and good to everyone else, I mean, we'll continue to wither and die and that we just I love the industry too much. Matt Cundill 18:22 So I think you blogged about that. I did. You might have or you might have mentioned it's Oh, I know where you mentioned it in another podcast. And I remember when I listened to it, I said, Steve, I gotta get Steve back on the show and talk to him about this because I run my business the same way. And that if anybody wants to call and ask me about podcasting, how what's the question? What can I do? Can you take a listen to the show? Can you evaluate it? All that stuff? The answer is always yes. And I know there are people out there like well, it's you know, 75 bucks an hour or 125 an hour to two, whatever it is No, I don't know yet. But that's a waste. Steve Reynolds 19:01 Yeah, I know. I mean, I know that there are people who sell those services. I'm not that guy. I was not brought up to be that guy by my parents. I don't think it's good business. I also don't think it's good values. I was at a morning show boot camp, and I was on a panel with Greg's for sell from Hubbard and the iconic Hall of Famer, Fred Jacobs. And I it was a room full of talent. And what was one of the things that Fred found in his survey of morning show people of personalities was that I don't get any feedback. And I think in many instances, you don't get any feedback because the the person who's supposed to give the feedback is just overwhelmed. They're doing 18 jobs and it just gets ticked to the bottom of the list. Not on purpose. Yeah, pay attention to people go back to that theme. So I said to the room, here's my promise in a world where people might charge you for that. I want nothing. Reach out to me. Here's my mobile number. Send me an attack. Steve asked me a question. And I was shocked at the number of people who took me up on that. And I felt good about me. And I feel good about them. And I felt good about our industry. All of us have to do that. We all got it. Yeah. Matt Cundill 20:10 Shout out to brand with on demand with Kipper McGee. Great, guys, great guys. You know, that's where I heard it. And I thought, Man, that's what I do. Because I, there's no point in me keeping this information and having somebody else struggle, putting together a podcast or their, you know, on demand audio or anything like that. It's so important to get it out there and share what we know because we can get you to hear, we can then get you up to the next level after that. We Steve Reynolds 20:39 need engaged people in the industry at any age, and I don't this is no elixir by which we fix our problems attracting younger talent into the industry. It's just how about it's just the right thing to do. Let's just do the it's just the right thing to do. I feel better about me and you feel better about what you do. And that's that's not a bad outcome. And no money exchanges hands because no money needs to wash it. Tara Sands (Voiceover) 21:06 transcription of the sound off podcast is powered by the you may also like podcast, the show about people places and things. Follow the show on your favorite podcast app, or at You may also like dotnet the sound off podcast supports podcasting 2.0, so feel free to send us a boost. If you're listening on a newer podcast app. If you don't have a newer podcast app, you can get one at new podcast apps.com. You know, when Matt Cundill 21:36 I started doing this podcast, I made so many mistakes. And along the way people helped. And they offered toys and services. And I like to share what I know because I feel I have to pay it back. Can Steve Reynolds 21:51 I tell you a story? Yeah, for sure. I don't think I've ever told you the story. But if I have to stop me. I had dinner on Wednesday night this week with the person who is my greatest mentor in the industry. I've got many of them. I always say Steve Reynolds is a Frankenstein. I'm just a little a him and a little of her and all of that became philosophically what I believe so at the end of the day I'm a Frankenstein I you know cut to copy one is plagiarism to copy six is research. And I just find people smarter than me and ask a lot of questions. Right dinner on Wednesday night with my main mentor, John Coleman, the smartest man in radio. Do you know John Coleman insight? Holman insights, yes, John lives here. For the some odd years ago, I'm programming WRAL in Raleigh, and John did our research. And he lives here that their shop is here. And John, and I kind of hit it off. And he said, I want you to come to Dallas, and I want you to do a presentation on how you do a morning show. I'm like, Huh, that's Latin to me, I don't understand any of that. And Johnson, I'm going to help you do this. Because the industry is going to go through consolidation. And they're going to need teachers. And John knew my second chosen profession after radio was to be a school teacher. That's what I wanted to do. And so he gave me my company, John said, I'm going to help you start a company because the industry is going to need people like you. So I had dinner with John on Wednesday. And I think all the time. I didn't build this, John gave it to me. And he asked for nothing in return. Don't get me any research projects. I don't need you introduce me to people, because I know all these people you need to know. And I'm like, one of the best pieces of advice. And I said this on that bandwidth, a thing, whatever you have given away. And we'll make the industry better good for you. I'm in awe of you that you do that, but not surprised. Well, Matt Cundill 23:43 while we have John Coleman, in our thoughts in mind right now, we can thank him for the video portion of this because it was their study along with Steve Goldstein and amplify, which they released a Podcast Movement, which talked about how many people are connecting with podcasts through video. And so that's why we're now doing this podcast in video form as well as on audio. Steve Reynolds 24:07 There's a lot of people in our industry who keep pushing to teach all of us and our understand that this state like I said earlier, just stay still is not an option. We have to just evolve and you know, those that can't or won't, you know, the industry is going to leave you behind. So let's just keep moving forward. Matt Cundill 24:26 Tell me about how you were a basketball official and you had an encounter with Bobby Knight. Steve Reynolds 24:31 You want to provide context to those either watching or listening what you're talking about. Do you want me to? Matt Cundill 24:36 I want you to I just saw the post. prepared Steve Reynolds 24:40 to be disappointed man. We all have side hustles and my side hustle for 36 years was I officiated now past tense because I recently retired in the last few months high school basketball here in the state of North Carolina, much to the dismay of my father. I never joined any athletic teams in high school because I just was not athletic. So my uncle came and said, Why don't you referee our scrimmages of my varsity basketball team? And I'm like, What's that all about? And he thought for a minute, man hold for a minute and said, you get the boss the other kids around. Huh? Okay, that sounds good. I'm in. And I got like the head got the radio bug. I got the officiating bug. I went to did a little of it. When I was a teen went to college, started the career came here and reengaged with it. And so for 36 years, I called high school basketball here in the state. That's the context. Move forward. Everyone needs a thing. I was never that radio guy who lived to meet celebrities and get pictures with them. I don't begrudge anyone who does. I have a few of my own. They're mine. I don't ever think I've got to post them online to show everyone that I meet met Ed Sheeran, or just that's not my thing. If you do it, it's cool. So some celebrity died like Tina Turner or something. And I watched on Facebook, everyone was posting their pictures of Tina and I Scott online as well. I never met Tina Turner, but I'm sure someone would care enough to Photoshop me into a picture meeting Tina Turner. And that became my thing. Anytime a celebrity dies, I asked for it. And I've got a few friends. I don't know Photoshop, I have a few friends who do it. So the night Bobby Knight died the iconic basketball coach of the Indiana Hoosiers. I'm on the sofa 50 paces from here and a friend of mine says I got you covered. And he photoshopped me as an official into a picture with Bobby Knight. And then I post it online and we all get a good laugh out of it. And then I get your notes saying I didn't know you officiated a game with Bobby Knight and so sorry to let you down. But it was a fake. I Matt Cundill 26:42 think I love that because I'm an official we have officiating in my home. So as a longtime hockey referee, and loved it as much as playing. And I've got a son right now who's a baseball umpire. And he's got the officiating bug. So when I see somebody who's officiating and has the officiating bug, I immediately think they're my best friend. It really doesn't matter what sport it is. Steve Reynolds 27:04 It's like you're in radio. Oh, my God, we have something big in common. I cannot. I mean, I gotta see, can you see? Where's that picture is a picture. You see that picture there? Yes. So that picture is me tossing the ball in 2019. At a high school basketball state championship, I've done three of them. And that was the worst one, because 15 minutes after that picture was taken, I tore my left hamstring in front of Roy Williams, the then coach of the UNC Tar Heels on the campus of North Carolina State University. So we all have to have our thing, right. And here's a message that I would share to any radio person listening, find something other than radio and get involved and it gives you great balance people I've met officiating maybe for you, too. I've met so many great people and have had had so many great experiences, you got to have more than just this to balance your life off and make it worth living. Matt Cundill 28:01 I know another thing that people sort of get caught up in this is not my thing, which is flying. So that's another one I find that radio people who get the bug with radio, get a bug with officiating or they might get one with with flying and aviation. There are other bugs out there to get affected by. Steve Reynolds 28:17 I retired because after 36 years, it was just time to recapture some time because I wanted to learn other stuff. So get involved in life. Matt Cundill 28:26 What did you think about sometimes when we touch because I was thinking about you when I was watching it. So Steve Reynolds 28:33 this show this three or four part show I think on Hulu, which which I think was brilliant. I'm gonna sit here and tell you that I have the carpenter's greatest hits on my iPhone and in Spotify. I love all of that smarmy 70s music I grew up from it. That's really I mean, I used to tuck up those songs in my basement as I prepared for my significant career hitting the post and radio. And all of that music just mattered to me and the iconic artists Moby said that Spotify is nothing more than a nostalgia machine. I find that to be true. Because when I get in the car, I'm playing all of that music. I thought it was brilliant. Because it made me feel like I was 15 years old again. And I found out I don't know if you know this, but the guy who sang the song sometimes when we touch is it downhill and help. Anyway, great song. He speaks the truth. If you know the history of that song, I don't know what role he played in that show. You should watch it if you're listening or watching and you haven't. It's fantastic. I wrote the blog piece for Coleman for their blog because they know it's like kinda like yacht rock. And so they said, Hey, write this piece for us. So that was great. And then I got the greatest honor. Mike McVeigh sends me a note and says I'm friends with Dan Hill. I'm forward In Him your blog, and he did and Dan wrote back to Mike and Mike forward to me acknowledging that he appreciated it. Matt Cundill 30:07 Oh, that's incredible. Yeah. Yeah, I watched it and forgot that I loved those songs without ever admitting to myself that I love those songs. Yeah, Steve Reynolds 30:17 here it is, again. And you know that that show happened to just the right time because it happened during COVID. And, you know, they seem nostalgic, as in I always think we gravitate to what's familiar to us. So when I'm in the car, and I'm listening to all that music, I don't feel my age. And I also don't feel the weight of the world because I tell this shows what time and distance give us as they, you know, it's like, oh, my god, 15 when life was perfect, and I'm thinking to myself, at the age of 15, I didn't know who I was. And I was getting beaten up from my lunch money in the boys room of North Junior High School to Newburgh, New York. And kids followed me on the way home and knocked all the books out of my hand. I mean, life was not perfect. But that's what time and distance does to us. And so you know, familiar brands advantage you. And that's why that music was still resonates for people like you. And Matt Cundill 31:10 one of the things you did mention inside that blog, which does tie in to yacht rock, which is to protect your IP, I guess there is a section I don't mean to spoil it. For those who haven't watched it, there's a section where they do talk about the term yacht rock where it started, we know where it started, but it got fuzzy as to you know, how anybody should trademark it or monetize it. And now it's a generic term. It's just sort of evolved that Steve Reynolds 31:36 way. Yeah. And those guys lost out on millions by not not trademarking the phrase. Yeah, rocks. Now, everyone has got rock, I'm sure you have a yacht rock channel. I do, too. We all have one, and are the shows that I work with. It's and I made this point in that piece. We do a feature called the Carpool Karaoke at WRAL. It's phenomenal. And Brian, Lord on the show is musically inclined. And he goes once a week to grammar school and entertains the mothers dropping their kids off. It's a thing after two years, it's a big thing. And I did a thing for the NAB recently, where I talked about, you know, you got to do big things. And Brian was in the session. And I said to the show months ago, you are, are we protected? Do we have the YouTube channel forward do we have all of the social handles for it is we have a service mark on the name, and the look and all that kind of stuff. And because I got home from the NAB, and I had people writing, saying, we're going to do it, we're going to do it, we're going to do it and the station's protected. And so you've got to figure out on your own, you just can't take it, you got to figure out what to do on your own. So we have to, we have to protect ourselves legally, in all these instances, so that the Iraq thing doesn't happen to us. So Matt Cundill 32:47 often, we will stumble across something we don't think much of that bout it. We don't give it any value. And then 10 years later, it's like, Oops, we should have done something about that. And one example that comes to mind is, you know, the CBC didn't really care about under the influence with Terry O'Reilly. And Terry said, Well, I'll just take that as the podcast and goodbye. And now it runs across, you know, the US on many public radio stations in Canada, and now it's one of the biggest podcasts going. So I mean, it's, I think, sometimes IP is we can say, protect your IP, but are we assigning a value to what we think, is our IP, Steve Reynolds 33:25 many of us grew up in the industry where we didn't have to think about intellectual property rights for things because there was no internet. And we would hear that, you know, I would be in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and I would hear that there's a show in Springfield, Massachusetts that did this feature, because the consultant for them is our consultant. So they would come in and say, you know, they do this, and it really works. And then I would do it. And now, everyone does second date update, but think about what it would have been like with whoever started that feature, and got the intellectual property rights on it. And, you know, in some ways, it would have been good, it would have been four, it would have forced all those other radio stations to create something for themselves, instead of just stealing it. Matt Cundill 34:11 I didn't know what you were on about the first time you took to social media to talk about the bad song selection for yacht rock. But eventually, you know, by the second the third time, I totally got it. And there's one song that will put somebody over the edge to say, I know what Steve is talking about. And for me, it was 10 cc dreadlock holiday. You're right. What is that doing on a yacht rock channel beyond me. I mean, the lesson here is play the hits, right? Yeah, Steve Reynolds 34:37 the lesson always is to play the hits. And I'd love to converse with the people who are making these decisions. But I've asked, no one reaches out to me little Steve. Let's get Steve involved. Maybe they think I want a retainer fee. Maybe I would want a retainer fee for that. Come to think of it. But I will say this that on social media. I just tried to be goofy like Photoshop my picture in with Glen Campbell. After he passes away, and I can make a haha out of it. And that was the same thing that I was driving somewhere that started I was driving someone I was the passenger in a car and a song came on like, what is that? And I took a screenshot and I just put it on Facebook because I was my ID was in the moment. And I got a lot of reaction to and I'm like, okay, that maybe could be a thing. And it's probably played out for me, maybe but every year in the spring, someone will reach out to me and say, did you hear this? Captain? Are we in again on that? Okay, I guess we I guess we are. Steve, you're Matt Cundill 35:37 really good at this podcast thing. Steve Reynolds 35:38 You know, I've told you before you are a great conversationalist. You are a casebook on how you do these because interested people are interesting people. You're interesting to me, we would be friends. If we live closer, I don't say that. We would you're just an interesting person. I like people who are curious. And I feel like I've done to way too much talking here. I've not asked you any questions. I've not turned the tables. But you just come and you were just a very curious person. And I think those those are the kinds of people that I have stimulating conversations with, they intrigued me. Matt Cundill 36:18 Well, thanks. We're gonna do this again, too. Steve Reynolds 36:20 Let's do it. Let's do it every week. What are we going to talk about next week? Matt Cundill 36:25 That's too much pressure. Yeah, but Steve Reynolds 36:26 you know you I mean, you're good at it, because you've done it so much, right? It's, it's kinda like, I'll just go back to the basketball officiating. It's kind of I always made make the equation that when you drive and you're 16 years old, and you drive for the first time, and you get into that busy intersection, and you want to make a left hand turn, and there's a lot of oncoming traffic, and it's overload for stimulation. And then few years later, you just don't You don't even think about it any longer. Officiating is the same way right. How did you know that was an offensive foul in that game, I've called a million of them, you will learn to forget and the same with prep. you've prepped so much. You never wing it so that it's all now part of your muscle memory. On how to do it. You would never wing it but you would always come in but you know where you want to take some. Tara Sands (Voiceover) 37:13 The sound off podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Sieminski, edited by Chloe emo Blaine, social media by Aiden glassy, another great creation from the sound off media company, there's always more at sound off podcast.com