A lot of radio personalities are initially attracted to the medium because of the music. But some hosts, like Sylvia Alvarado, go far beyond a passing interest. As the midday host on KOMP 92.3 in Vegas, she's had incredible interviews with some of the biggest stars in rock music: Slash, Pat Carney from The Black Keys, Zakk Wylde, and Matt Schultz from Cage The Elephant, just to name a few. She's also a musician herself- She's sung the national anthem at games for the Vegas Aviators and the Golden Knights. Sadly, there isn't much footage out there, but when you consider that you only here about anthem singers when they mess up - this may be a good thing. But if you do want to see a solid performance, there's one to the right of this, and also here on her instagram page. In this episode, Sylvia and Matt run through her history with music and radio, from her beginnings as a student at UNLV and a humble intern at KOMP all the way to her current position as the midday host. Even if it seems like she's a natural fit for radio, she had her fair share of struggles. We go over how she finally gained confidence in herself after 2 years (!) on the air, and how she tackled a few broadcasts in Spanish. We also go over the fierceness of creating and running promotions in Vegas, which is pretty much the global capital of promoting things. If you're listening from Vegas, you can hear Sylvia from 10am to 3pm on 92.3 KOMP. If you're not, you can also listen live on their website. (Yes, even you Canada!) In the meantime, check out a clip of her interview with Brandon Boyd of Incubus: To connect with Sylvia and learn more about her, you can follow her on Instagram and LinkedIn. Marketing Then If you caught the episode, Sylvia and Matt talked about the 2000's era marketing of the station. You could say, "Well this is Vegas!" but just about every rock station had some form of marketing or imaging involving beer, babes and sex. After all, sex sells. Matt has comment on whether he was pleased or displaced at the direction Sylvia's iPhone was pointed. Transcript: Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:00:01 The Sound Off Podcast. The Podcast about Broadcast with Matt Cundill - starts now. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:10 This week. I'm speaking with Sylvia Alvarado from KOMP 92.3 in Vegas. She does the midday show from ten to three. She's largely Vegas raised outside of the first eleven months of her life, which were spent in Santa Monica. To get ready for this episode, we log into squad cast, we set up the cameras to see one another, and our first minute chatting is an audio HR incident. Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:00:34 Thank you for having me. I actually was pretty nervous leading up to this interview because usually I'm the one interviewing. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:41 It's going to feel a little bit different, I guess, in this sense. Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:00:43 Oh, for sure. Are the boobies distracting? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:47 My apologies, the what? Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:00:49 The boobies. Can you see them? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:50 Yeah, come to think of it, now that you point them out, there are yes. So what you can't see in this podcast is the retro 2000 marketing poster in the top corner above Sylvia's head. It's featuring predominant under cleavage. That form of rock station marketing hasn't completely disappeared from the radio landscape, but indeed, it was a different era. I put a picture of the poster, by the way, up on the web page at soundoffpodcast.com. Sylvia Alvarado joins me from the.com studios at Lotus Broadcasting in Las Vegas, where it turns out Sylvia once wanted to become a nun. Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:01:23 First off, I wanted to be a nun, and I think based on the look on your face, it seems random. But yeah, I was about seven or eight and we had to do this activity where it's like, draw what you wanted to be when you grow up. And I said I wanted to be a nun. I don't know why. I think it's because of the Catholic upbringing and because I was at a Catholic elementary school. But yeah, anytime when somebody asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up, I wanted to be a nun. That didn't work out. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:53 Is your pathway into media sort of your way of rebelling and you're still going through the rebellion phase? Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:01:59 No, I don't think I was cut out for it. I say too much bad words, I got dirty jokes. I think rock radio was kind of like my calling, but even then afterward, like, I wanted to be a singer. So I'm such a shy, introverted person that radio and just public speaking never seemed to be something that I thought I would see myself in. Even when I interned here, I never saw myself on air because I was like, there's no way that it could happen. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:02:29 Do you consider yourself some sort of introvert extrovert where you live both lives? Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:02:33 I think so. I think that actually exists where it's like you have extrovert qualities, but you're really an introvert. When I'm around a lot of people, I get super exhausted. I need to recharge my batteries a little bit afterwards, but I think it's also functioning introversion or something. I don't know. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:02:52 How many journalism and media degrees do you have? Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:02:55 I have an associate's degree in journalism, media studies and a bachelor's. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:03:01 So that's like two. Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:03:02 That's like two. And then I have an honor society and I can't remember off the top of my head, but it was like Alpha Counsel something, so there's that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:03:12 So you knew you were going to go into media in some capacity, but what were you thinking while you were studying for these degrees? Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:03:18 Well, actually, first I went into college for psychology, realized I don't think I want to be a doctor, and then I changed my major to music, realized I don't think I want to be a teacher, and then this is kind of where my mom plays in, where she's like, you love to write, you should go into journalism. And I went into it and I really liked it, but then we had to take an internship and I was like, well, I don't want to go into TV. I want to be into a place where music is involved because I love music. And how cool would it be to just be surrounded by music all the time? So that's kind of how I got into radio. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:03:54 What sort of music did you grow up around? Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:03:56 Well, I'm a millennial, so the Britney Spears, the Instincts, Backstreet Boys and all that, but when I was about 1011, my brother introduced me to Korn, so he had me listen to a song called Twist. And I don't know if you or anyone out there is familiar with the song Twist, but it's basically the singer scouting, and it's very, like, chaotic and I think it was meant to scare me, but it got me so excited for some reason. I was like, oh, this is freaking cool. And then from there it was Korn, it went to Alice In Chains, it went into Nirvana, it went into Metallica. So, yeah, I kind of left Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera kind of in the dust. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:04:40 That was a great time in the 90s. That was a lot of fantastic rock bands. So what was your first rock concert? Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:04:45 My Chemical Romance. I was 16 and I got caught in and it was my first concert and my first mosh pit. And as a 16 year old, that was not fun for me because I kind of didn't expect it. And I remember a Gerard Way saying, make that much, make it as big as the hole in my effing heart. And I'm like, Oh, no. And so everybody just, like, rushed to the stage and made this big moshta. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:05:13 I was like, Oh my God, when was the first time you set foot into a radio station and what did you do? Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:05:19 That was back in winter of 2009, and I was an intern, so I basically just had to file a lot of papers and because, again, going back into being an introvert, I was a little bit scared to work on my brakes. So the internship coordinator at the time, who also later became a mentor and my best friend, he was always like, you need to do your breaks. You need to work on your voice. And that was the biggest thing he always wanted me to do, was develop your voice, develop who you want to be on air. But I mostly stayed in filing and helping out in promotions, but eventually one day, I was just like, okay, I'm going to start working on my breaks. And that was tough. It sucks hearing your voice for the first time. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:06:03 So that's amazing because you admit that you're an introvert, you're filing, you've already mentioned I didn't imagine that I would ever be on the air doing what I do. So when's that moment when you find. Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:06:15 Your voice, it happened probably where I was content with it, probably two years into my radio career, but I kind of just was like, I'm open with my friends. Like, pretend that you're talking to a friend on air, and that's kind of how you start to develop, and you listen to other jocks, and you kind of, like, take pieces and kind of make it your own. So I think when I was really happy with it was about two years in. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:06:42 And was it confidence more than anything, or have you just done it, killed it, and you knew you were in? Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:06:48 No, I think it was confidence, to be perfectly honest. It was definitely confidence because, again, I just thought that, well, I don't think I sound good. I don't think I sound it was always in my head a lot. So there was one day where I was just like, I'm tired of feeling like I'm shy on the mic. I'm tired of feeling like hiding who I am. So it just came to a point where I was like, no, I'm talking to my friends. I'm always open with my friends. I'm very sarcastic, and I have dark humor, and I love this music, and I want to share with the audience that I love this music with them. So, yeah, I gained that confidence. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:07:27 And you've been on the air in Spanish, too? Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:07:29 Yeah, for, like, a hot minute. And actually, it turned out to be, like, two years, but I was doing KOMP on weekends, and then I was on air on La Buena for about two years, and I did, like, a 1 hour, two hour show, and it was like a countdown, and that was actually really tough for me, and that was kind of going all the way back of, like, finding my voice, because at the time, my Spanish wasn't great. I spoke Spanish, but you could still hear an accent, and a lot of people could hear that and any time when I had to and I wrote out all my breaks because I just didn't have the confidence in myself. To go and talk like I'm talking right now, so I write out all my breaks, but I always had a little bit of trouble reading some words, so I stumbled a lot, and luckily the audience was pretty forgiving. Like, they could understand that I was a Mexican American, but mostly spoke English. So I had a lot of calls saying, like, Oh, you know, they would call me Bocha, which is basically a Mexican American, like, Oh, Bocha Bochita, you're doing good, you're out there, we understand. I'm like, that's really nice. I don't know if this is good for me. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:08:39 So I'm from Montreal, where we have English and French radio, french being the predominant language in that city. You're doing English radio and where English is obviously predominant. But how are the two markets different between Spanish radio and English radio? And we'll speak specifically to where you are in Vegas. Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:08:57 The main thing that I've seen, and this is just from our Spanish station, is the Mexican audience or the Latino audience just seems to be, like, super passionate about radio and about the promotions and about the jocks. And I'm not saying that the accompl listeners or the English audience, they don't have that same passion, but it's just a different there's a difference. There's just more enthusiasm or passion or they're just more connected, I guess. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:09:25 Community. Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:09:26 Yeah. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:09:28 So you started doing some filing back in 2009. You're on the air during the middays and in the in between time. You've probably done every job in radio to date that has to do with being on the air, because I know you've done some promotions as well. So tell me about your skill set. What's in the bag? Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:09:45 If someone needs to cover the front desk on that girl, if our promotions guy who does the other stations, if he's out, I'm in. I'll cover. I think I covered our sister station three times in my career, so our classic rock station, I've been there, so I can do I think that's about it. I'm pretty sure there's more. Oh, I can upload stuff on the website. I do social media. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:10:12 All right, so you do mid days, and all we hear about radio in today's day and age, is just how busy everybody is. So give everybody an idea about what your work day is like, when does it start, when does it end, and how much do you have to do? Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:10:25 It starts at ten. I'm here at the station from about ten to one, and then the rest is voice tracked from one to about four, sometimes five, just depending on how busy the day is. I go into my office and I just work on promotions. If there's proposals, if there's rules needed, if I need to put together some remote prize packs, that's pretty much it. Meetings, conference calls, all that sort of stuff. So scheduling for promotions, voice tracking for weekends, that sort of stuff. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:10:57 Promotions in vegas has got to be a daunting task because Las Vegas is just one big giant entertainment promotion as it is. Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:11:06 Oh, yeah. And especially with our professional teams that are here. So we have Las Vegas Golden Knights, we have the Las Vegas Raiders, we have the Las Vegas Aces, we have our AAA baseball teams, we have the Vegas Triple A football teams, hockey. So, yeah, we're a busy, entertaining city. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:11:24 So tell me about the arrival of both the Raiders and the Golden Knights. And I mentioned both, especially like the Golden Knights. Canadians know all about that because they look at their crappy hockey team from Edmonton or Vancouver or Winnipeg and will go, hey, let's go to Vegas for the weekend. Or you might be a Buffalo Bills fan and you say, Hey, look, they're playing the Raiders and let's go there for the weekend. So how are those two teams in the arrival of professional sports in Vegas really changed the work that you do? Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:11:51 Well, it got busy and when the Vegas hockey came here, I was at a different station. So Lotus Broadcasting is sort of like the flex ship station for Vegas Golden Knights. So when all that happened, I wasn't in this building, but I remember hearing a lot of people saying a little bit of naysaying where they were like, hockey, it's not going to be popular, it's not going to do well, there's not going to be any people at the games and all this stuff, but, oh my God, I can't drive down the street without seeing like a Vegas Golden Ice flag or the license plates. It grew. And there are fans, and they are hardcore fans out here. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:12:30 How did everybody whiff on that? Because everybody's thinking, oh, there's too much to do in Vegas that's never going to take off. And these are some of the more popular teams and some of the more popular events in Vegas. Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:12:42 Oh, yeah. And I think what happens is, and maybe this might not be the case, but it just seems like there's community around it because everybody is coming together and they are cheering on. And especially, I think hockey has a special place in the Las Vegas community's heart because everything happened when 1 October happened. So it was a way for us to come together and root for something as a community. So I think that's kind of where it kind of bumped up. The popularity, in my opinion, is that it's kind of like what I saw. But maybe there are a lot of closet hockey fans as well. And the people, of course, are happy that there is a professional team in Las Vegas. We didn't think that it would ever happen. We've heard like rumors and everything like that, but it's finally here and then you have on top of the Raiders and that's football. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:13:27 Oh my God, what makes a great radio promotion and what's maybe one of the more memorable ones that you've done. Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:13:34 I remember we used to do well. We have what's called KOMP bingo. So that's one of KOMP's biggest promotions, where it's basically bingo, but it's rock and roll bingo. There are drinks, people are having a blast, or great prizes. But we also had musical chairs, and this was like years when I was an intern. We had musical chairs, so people would play musical chairs for concert tickets. We had the KOMP kegger, which was a big party that we would throw, and we would invite bands like chevelle or adelaide's way that I can remember that sort of stuff. When I was over on la buena, we had, like, a little pageant for girls who are turning 15. For me, that was a memorable promotion because it was basically like, girls wanting to have the 15th birthday of their lifetime. And that was cool that we were able to make it happen for one lucky girl. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:14:25 What does the visitor to las vegas not know about living and working in las vegas? Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:14:31 I think people have this perception that we're always on the strip and we're always partying, and that's not true. And I think just in general, people have like, we live in casinos. I don't really go to the strip all that much unless it's for a concert, unless it's for a friend who's in town. But we have our national park, red rock. We have our art district. It's a lot more than just casinos and gambling and everything. It's the community. It's a little bit more artsy than people like to give it credit for. And we don't live in casinos. We live far away from them. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:15:06 Have you ever played a casino game in vegas? Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:15:10 Yes, and I didn't understand it, and I lost money. I was like, this sucks. It was like a slot machine. And I was like someone was trying to show me. He's like, okay, you just press this button. You just press this button. I'm like, I lost $10. It doesn't seem like it's my game. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:15:26 So did you look at the strip as being some sort of freak show? The way I looked at the strip when I went there. Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:15:30 Well, how did you see it? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:15:32 A lot of visitors doing a lot of weird stuff. People passed out in their breakfast. There was a woman who passed out at the casino table while hitting on my wife. This all happened in three days. Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:15:43 I think what happens is people who can't handle vegas, a lot of amateurs. I've seen this meme where it's like, oh, vegas. Like, guys going into vegas, and they're like, yeah, let's go to vegas. And two days later, they're just, like, destroyed. They just can't handle vegas. And this is a bunch of amateurs. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:15:59 KOMP 92.3, the rock station. In just a moment, we're going to talk about social media strategies, the perils of singing the national anthem while the TV cameras are rolling and that era of marketing with the KOMP girls, the calendars and the tattoos. We'll find out what they're doing these days. There's more with Sylvia, including some of those performances and a transcription of this episode on our website at soundoffpodcast.com, Sarah (Voiceover) 00:16:27 Transcriptio for the.The Sound Off podcast powered by Poddin. Your podcast is an SEO goldmine. We help you to dig out, start your free trial now at poddin.io Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:16:36 The Sound Off podcast with Matt Cundill Matt Cundill (Host) 00:16:36 You're into Korn. You're listening to Twist, and then you're going to take this time machine and you're going to move into 2022 and you're going to look at rock radio today. And what do you think your observations would be as far as, like, I can't believe we're still playing Korn? Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:16:59 We are playing Korn. We just played Korn today. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:17:05 Do you play Got The Life? Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:17:06 Yeah, Got the Life. We played Freak on a Leash. We got the new one because they have a new album out. So, I mean, I would be very excited as like a nine year old Sylvia saying, like, oh, great god, the Life is still being played. Freak on. Alicia is still being played. Oh, they have new music. But it's like with Metallica, I don't think that's ever going to go out of style. Like, we played Limp Bizkit Sprinkled in. So I think those bands and those songs, they're really not going to go out of style because a lot of people like to listen to songs that they used to rock out two years ago when they were younger. I think that's why it seems like there's a resurgence kind of going along with the late 90s, early 2000s coming back. I think that's getting a lot of popularity again. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:17:52 So what's the strategy for new music? Like, how much would you play in an hour? And you're going to add the record of the playlist, but how are you going to take it upon yourselves to get this new artist and new song out to your listeners? Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:18:04 Well, what I've noticed is that it kind of creeps in. So it starts at night and then it kind of creeps into the afternoon and then to middays. And I noticed that with new music, it's always a stopset before or not stop set, but like a break before the new music. So you're able to get music news and talk about it for however many seconds you have. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:18:25 Is that 12 seconds or longer? Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:18:27 Depends on the song. Because normally, like, newer bands and newer songs that I've noticed, they're not like Metallica anymore, man. They don't give us a minute. And 32nd intro, it's very like with that flower. It's a seven second intro. So as much as I try not to stop the playlist to talk, sometimes you have to because you only have like five to 7 seconds and you want to talk about a station promotion or you want to talk about the new song, you want to talk about the band, if they're going to have a show, that sort of stuff. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:18:58 Which brings us, really, to sort of getting your listeners to connect to the artist, whether it's an older one or a newer one or a band that's heading out on tour. And then you're going to be tasked with interviewing the band. And so now how do you get the interview out? How would you look at your social media assets and how would you bust it all up to make sure that the interview got out there? Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:19:17 So what I would do is, aside from airing it, I would make a little video, put the interview and the artist photo. I'll post it on Instagram, I'll post it on our Facebook page. I tried to post it on our web, and I'll link, I'll tag the artist, I'll tag the venue. And that's kind of just what I've been doing as far as trying to get, hey, this person has new music going on tour, that sort of stuff. Just get all the info out to the listeners. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:19:45 I guess the pandemic has sort of made it that you have to do your interviews like the way we're doing our interview right now. Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:19:51 Yeah. And it's such a bummer, especially because sometimes we may not have the luxury of doing a video interview, so you have to solely rely on the voice. And what I've tried to do was kind of talk to the person before I hit record because you only have 15 minutes, but you have to make it sound like, hey, we're buddies, but we know each other. We're like, we're cool with each other. We're trying to create a chemistry out of talking for 15 minutes. So that's been, like, the tough thing that I've come across. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:20:26 I think you're talking on a cell phone to me right now through your iPhone, so you're not going to be able to reach for this answer. But what rock stars do you have their text number right now in your contacts? Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:20:38 I had Ivan Moody's number for a second, actually. It's more so on Instagram that I'm friends with or like, I'll follow and they'll follow me and we'll talk every once in a while very rarely, but yeah, but I remember I had been Moody from Five Finger Death Punch. He was like, Call me, call me. I'm like, I'm 22, man, I'm so shy. Oh, my God. And it's not to say, like, anything like he was being a creep or anything. I think he was just being a guy who, I don't know, wanted to. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:21:07 Talk more, was lonely on the road. Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:21:10 It is. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:21:11 Remember, this is a band that covered Bad Company. Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:21:13 I'm not afraid to say that I'm not mad at my fingertips, but they got some good songs. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:21:19 I'm a fan. Okay, so this brings up the question, most memorable interview. Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:21:23 Oh, my God. Well, memorable because this wasn't good. Memorable in the positive would be slash I've interviewed him twice. He's always been super nice. He's always been a sweetheart and very talkative and very chatty. Brent Smith have shined down. He was awesome. I had a 30 minutes interview with him, which I didn't expect memorable and like the sense that it was awful and doesn't leave my mind was Maynard from Tool? He's a tough one, that guy. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:21:53 Yeah. I think he puts a deliberately difficult and standoffish answers. Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:21:58 Oh, yeah. And I remember one thing that I love about interviewing people, and this is why it was a little bit tough to kind of be on the other side. I love researching. I love reading about the artists that I'm going to interview. So I spent like a good two days researching and trying to like, find everything that I could about Maynard. And the interview went like this, super quick. I went through my questions like 2 seconds because he didn't really give me a whole lot. So that was probably the most memorable as far as like it just was so crappy. I never saw the light of day. I refused, really. I know, because actually I'm really hard on myself too. So I'm like, no one is going to hear this. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:22:41 So was this for Tool or was this for a perfect circle or pussyfoot? Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:22:45 This is for pussy four. And I don't know if I should say that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:22:49 I mean, if you mentioned Tool during the pussyfare interview, you're going to get something odd. Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:22:54 Well, here's the thing. So when I did mention Tool, it was very, like, quick. And then I was told, oh, he loves talking about his winery. And I didn't know that he had a restaurant in Arizona. And I was like, this is great. I could do this. We can talk about his stuff. And yeah, he just sounded very bored, very nice to be there. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:23:14 But if you went back and started to talk about him being a farmer and growing grapes, do you think he would have had a different reaction? Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:23:21 No, that was in there too. I'm telling you, because the PR lady was like, oh, he loves talking about that's his favorite thing to talk about, his restaurant and his winery and farming. And I remember looking at YouTube videos and there was one video. I don't know if anyone is familiar with this, but there's this little girl. I think it's like rockstar interview kids or whatever, something like that. It's like these little girls interviewing musicians. And I remember he was still a little bit standoffish with the little girl. I'm like, oh my god, if he's standoffish and like really short with his answers to an eight year old, what is he going to do to a 33 year old? Oh my God. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:24:00 And I have the same experience, by the way, with Brent Smith. He's the nicest guy and he stays as long as you'll have him. And it's incredible. And he shakes everyone's hand. He remembers everybody's name. I wish every rock star were like that. And I'm quite convinced that rock radio would be in a much better position if everybody did what he did, which is straight out of the Country Music Handbook, actually. Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:24:21 Yeah. I guess having access to the musicians, like more access to artists. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:24:28 Yeah, but thanking radio and being thankful for radio and really putting out the thanks and meeting the listeners and not every rock band does that. Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:24:37 No, actually, no. It's very rare. I mean, Slash has done it. He's been super nice. Brandon Boyd, he was a sweetheart. I think if artists or musicians in the rock scene gave more of an experience, I guess, to say I think it would be a lot more fun. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:24:53 Yeah, but when was the last time that a rock star thanked rock radio? At the MTV Music Awards or anything like that? Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:24:59 I couldn't tell you. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:25:01 It's been a while. Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:25:02 It's been a while. And also because I haven't seen a music MTV Music Award show in a long time, nothing pops to mind. And I'm pretty sure there is one, and I can't think of that person right now because I'm pretty sure I've seen it. Carl Aron Jones, probably, if you've ever heard of him. He's a Seattle musician. I think he's pretty good at that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:25:21 What are your listeners listen to when they're not listening to you? Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:25:24 More KOMP? We have some pretty dedicated listeners. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:25:29 Yeah. I get the feeling there's not much where else to go on the dial for what you're offering. Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:25:36 There's another station, but I don't think it has the maybe this is throwing shade. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:25:41 No, we've got the ratings. We have the ratings. Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:25:43 We do. But there's another radio station that I don't think has the locality. I think it's mostly all voice tracked, it's all satellite. Whereas with our station, we kind of pride ourselves in being local. We have our morning show Be US in the Morning. We have myself and we have our afternoon show, Guy Gooch. So, yeah, I think that's kind of what we can parade about. Like we're local. We can talk about if something happened on the Strip or if there's a concert we can kind of like, celebrate or come together with the community. We get each other. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:26:19 You're really good at Instagram, by the way. Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:26:21 Am I really? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:26:22 Yeah, I think so. Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:26:23 Thanks. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:26:24 So what is your social media strategy with your particular audience? Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:26:27 With me? I just try to post anything. Well, aside from radio stuff in the interviews, I just try to post things that are happy, that are dumb enough to make you laugh. I have this thing where I will say really horrible dad jokes, but in a pumpkin filter, which is dumb, but it makes me laugh. And if it makes anybody else laugh, or at least crack a smile, I've done my job. And that's kind of like what I've tried to have. My Instagram mostly it's just something that you can just look at and crack a smile and stuff. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:27:02 You were talking about how you were a singer and you talked about how it was such in your distant past and you don't do it anymore, but I know that that's not true. Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:27:09 No, I sing here and there. I sing mostly our national anthem. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:27:13 You're at the Aviators Game? Yeah. You sang the anthem. Tell me about that experience. Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:27:18 Yeah, well, here's the thing. I've done the anthem, I want to say, for about 13 years for that organization. So it used to be Las Vegas 51, and I was introduced back in 2009 to the person kind of in charge of that. So he's asked me to come saying maybe once a year, every single year, and every single year, I am dying. I'm so nervous. I'm stress, buddy, because I get so nervous because I'm like, Oh, my God, this could be it. This could be the year that I forget the words. And that is my biggest fear. Not that I'll mess up a note, because I'm like, no, I'm pretty confident in that. It's the lyrics, because the lyrics everybody knows the lyrics to the national anthem in that arena, in that stadium. Everybody knows. I can't do another lyric to fill in. I can't do that because everybody knows. And that's one of my biggest fears. But after it's done, I'm on cloud nine and I just want to do it again. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:28:11 Yeah, well, you don't want to become a sports center highlight, but it's not the worst thing in the world. But it has happened. Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:28:16 I know, and that's my fear, because this happened, like, years ago, but for some reason I was like, well, it could be worse. Let me see how worse it can be. And so I looked at how bad there was that one lady who was at a hockey game and she sang, but then messed up the lyrics. They went back, then came out, but she fell on the ice. Oh, my God. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:28:37 Oh, I remember that. Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:28:38 Yeah. That's probably not what you want to see before you go out and sing the national anthem. That doesn't calm the nerves. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:28:44 We have had Josie Die from Indy 88 on the show, and she did sing the national anthem and she did mess it up. Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:28:50 No. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:28:52 And you know what? I've completely forgotten about the incident. And she brought it up on this podcast and I said, Oh, that's right. Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:29:01 Oh, my God. It's such a crummy feeling to just even know that you could be forgetting it, which has happened to me. But then I don't I think it's like muscle memory. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:29:09 What is next level for you in the radio business? It's such a dumb question, but where do you see yourself in two years? Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:29:16 Hopefully? And it's not a dumb question, because my goal when I first started was, okay, can I be on air? And I went on air, like, on weekends. And I was like, okay, well, what's the next thing I can do? And so the opportunity presented itself to be on a morning show. So I was like, Okay, I'll do that. I came back and I'm like, okay, well, I'm back on weekends, but what can I do? What opportunities are there? And then I did midday. So I think just for the next two years, if I can just be on middays and be the best that I can possibly be, as far as maybe being a little bit better on my Instagram or putting out more content into my breaks, that sort of thing, I think that's kind of where I see myself still being on mid days, hopefully, because radio is a little bit it can be challenging and it can be unpredictable and can be unstable. So my goal is just to be here two years midday and be like, the best personality that I can be. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:30:11 I love that. Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:30:12 Now it's just evolving. So now I'm on middays, which I wanted to be on weekdays. When I started to do weekends, I wanted to be on weekdays, so now I'm on weekdays. Well, how can I evolve from that? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:30:25 Did the texture of your show change during the pandemic? Did mid days evolve a little bit because people sort of changed their lives, especially Las Vegas. Everything changed for people in Las Vegas. But did the texture of your show change where you had different listeners listening at different times? And was it noticeable to you? Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:30:41 I think because what I noticed when we first started going on air, when I first started midday, and that was like June 2020, I think a lot of it was just trying to give news about the pandemic, but also still trying to be uplifting. And I think right now the goal is to talk about stuff that is positive or funny or informative, maybe not so much of the heavier stuff, because people have a lot around that anyway. You open up Facebook, you open up Twitter. Sadly, there's a shooting or there's monkeypox. So I think for me now, it's just trying to give content that'll kind of like, take away the worries or the anxiety. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:31:27 So behind you is a marketing piece from the station's past. It features under boob. Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:31:33 Yeah. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:31:34 Is that still part of the plan for Rock Radio these days? Or as Rock Radio moved on from that, are we still doing that? Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:31:40 This was done. And just to paint a picture, it's the under boobs. It has the KOMPlogo. I think that started, I want to say early 2000s. So that's kind of really when Rock Radio was like the tattoos and the girls and the drink beer and super bro. I think we've kind of gotten away with it or away from it a little bit. I mean, it's still there. I still have posters from, I think, 2001 of our KOMP rock girls. We don't have those anymore. And I think it just kind of went away where we kind of like grew away from it. It's still part of our past. It will present it, obviously, because we're never going to let go. These are great boobs, but I don't think it's like the main thing. And we still have the strip club commercials and all that, which, by the way, I have voiced two strip club commercials. I don't think it's going to go away, but we just kind of like it's not as prominent. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:32:33 I think rock radio has backed off it a little bit. I mean, you're talking about that era in the early two thousands when we're going to get a website up on the website. What are we going to put? We're going to put up pictures of. Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:32:42 Girls, the hot girl of the day. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:32:44 Yeah. And then at the end of the year, there's a calendar and then there's the calendar launch party where you can come meet the girls at one point. And maybe you still have them. You probably have the KOMP girls who are going to be out at the remotes. Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:32:55 Yeah. I never got to see those days. Unfortunately, by the time I came to intern, I think they had stopped that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:33:03 I was like, man, you missed it. Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:33:06 I missed it. I missed the glamor. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:33:09 We had Bob Willett and I ran into Bob Willett, who had a great quote on this podcast. And it was like, oh, you just started working here. You missed the best era of the radio station. All the good stuff has already happened. Dang Sylvia, what did I miss? Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:33:23 I think I covered it. What did you miss for me? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:33:26 Well, probably a station tour. The next time I come to Vegas. Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:33:29 I would love to because we have a brand new board, too. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:33:32 Great. I love to come see it. Sylvia Alvarado (Guest) 00:33:34 Well, thank you so much for having me. It was a Blast! Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:33:34 The the Sound Off podcast, written and hosted by Matt Cundill, produced by Evan Surminski, social media by Courtney Krebsbach. Another great creation from the the Soundoff Media Company. They're there's always more at soundoffpodcast.com.

I have launched a new podcast! With a little help from my Podcast Super Friends. In the past you have heard stories from for radio program director Jon Gay aka Jag in Detroit, and Catherine O'Brien from Branch Out Programs. Meet Johnny Peterson who is the same age as my twin boys. Johnny went to Texas Christian University and studied marketing. When it came to audio... he learned the rest on his own. It's amazing what you can pick up from You Tube and by getting together with other podcast Super Friends. He has been working with companies to build outstanding branded podcasts like The Fort with Chris Powers. and Owner Occupied with Peter Lohmann. Both of those podcasts are in the real estate sector. You can connect with Johnny on his website. Also if you would love to listen to the 5 of us nerd out on podcasting every month, just follow anyone of our social accounts and hit subscribe or Follow and you'll get notifications when we go live. Here is the live recording of the podcast episode. Follow us! Johnny Podcasts YouTube. Sound Off Media Company on YouTube. And for the love of podcasting, please connect with us on the Podcast Super Friends Podcast... or you can just watch the show on our socials. TRANSCRIPTION Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:00:01 The Sound Off Podcast. The podcast about broadcast with Matt Cundill starts now. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:10 Johnny Peterson is Johnny podcasts. He started straight away up podcast a few years back and is largely self taught when it comes to the audio side. However, he is finally schooled when it comes to marketing. A graduate of Texas Christian University and executive producer of several successful podcasts, johnny is also one of the Podcast Super Friends, the composition of five podcast pros who get together monthly to talk podcast. And it's only fitting that we have a podcast, right? You can connect to that show wherever you get your favorite podcast and also in the show notes of this episode. This conversation aired live on both our YouTube channels, a Facebook page, a Twitter account, and a few other places. So be sure to subscribe to all those as well and be part of the live and interactive audience. Johnny Peterson joins me from his home studio in Fort Worth. I'm at Condo. I'm host of the Sound Off podcast. We're doing this one live. We are recording this for audio, but we're also streaming this to video. And originally I was going to do this only audio, but then I thought, wait a second, we've got all the equipment. We always profess to our clients that we should probably include a video strategy. So I figured, why not? Let's just put this on video as well and take it live and we'll see what happens. Hi, Johnny, how are you? Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:01:29 Hey, Matt. Yeah, we got approved to the people that pay us money that we actually know what we're talking about, and so it would be helpful if we can prove it in some capacity. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:38 Practice what you preach, they say. This is exactly it's not our first time together this week, but we'll talk more about our adventures with the Podcast Super Friends shortly. But I do know you're a graduate of TCU. Why did you choose TCU and what did you study there? Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:01:55 So I actually, in a previous life, was a college basketball player, and that was kind of my trajectory in life. It was focused all on that sport growing up. Obviously, I'm a six foot two white guy, so my chances of going to the NBA were slim to none. Ended up in a division three school in Los Angeles my freshman year. Had a terrible time there, went to community college, played another year, and my coach sat me down for kind of an end of year meeting, and I said, hey, I got accepted to TCU to go to the business school there. And there's a school in Idaho, a D three school in Idaho that wants me to come play there. And he just looks me in the eye and goes, you know what you should do? And so ended up at Texas Christian University in Fort Worth, Texas, to just have the classic college experience, join the fraternity, studied business, did all the typical things that you normally would. I actually studied marketing, and that is sort of what led me into getting the network that I have now, which led me into podcasting. I didn't really have a path into podcasting. It sort of just happened overnight while I was in college. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:02:58 Does anybody really, truly have a path into podcasting that just didn't find you swimming upstream into a different direction? Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:03:05 I think you and Jack do, actually. I think the radio industry is a pretty clear path into podcasting. Just with the way technology is going. We're all going online, everyone is becoming a brand. Everything is on demand. I want it when I want it, and I want to be able to play it, listen to it, watch it whenever I want it. And so radio to podcasting seems like a logical step forward. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:03:29 What podcast did you start listening to? Do you remember your first one? Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:03:32 Yeah, I remember the very first podcast that made me fall in love with the medium was congratulations with Crystallia in 2017. He's a stand up comedian. People may know him as being a recently canceled comedian for stuff that I don't even know about, but one of my buddies just showed it to me and says, hey, have you ever heard of this comedian? Have you ever heard of a podcast? And I said, no. What are both of those? Listened to it and just found myself laughing my ass off. Ten minutes into it, I was like, I love this. This is so much better than music. This is way better than watching YouTube. I can listen to it whenever I want when I'm driving, and there's just so much variety. And I was hooked ever since in. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:04:12 That podcast and I haven't listened to it. Is it the kind of comedic podcast where he's trying out new material? Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:04:19 Yeah, which is the type of comedy podcast I love. I love it when different comedy is my favorite type of podcast to listen to. That's really where I spend most of my listening time. And I think it's a great avenue for comedians. It's just kind of one small wrinkle within podcasting that makes it such a beautiful industry and such a beautiful medium, is that they can go on stage every single night, but you're limited to that audience that's physically with you. And rather than actually sitting down and writing material, how do you see how well it's going to play out until you go on stage that night? So a lot of these comics will start a podcast and just work out material that either does really well and they can see in the reflection of engagement they get on social media or the amount of downloads they get on a particular episode, or an audience that they can amass overall, which leads to sponsorships. That's another avenue of revenue that they can get. And as the listener, if I enjoy that person's comedy, I now get to develop what I feel is a deeper relationship with that person. I feel like I know them because I'm listening to them for hours on hours every single week. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:05:22 What was that moment when you went out to purchase a microphone because you thought you would be doing a podcast or heading in the direction of podcasting? Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:05:29 I bought this beautiful Blue Yeti microphone on Amazon in 2018, and it's now an ancient relic. And I actually keep it on this desk here because when I do video calls with clients and they say, oh, I'm ready to start a podcast, I bought a microphone, actually, and I pull this one out, and I go, Is it this one? And they go, Yeah. And I go, Throw it away. It's time to buy something else. I'm glad you called me. So I bought that one. And the goal for my first podcast was to do a Basketball Focus podcast, and that was because I was doing an internship at a tech company in between my junior and senior year of college. I had really no direction. My life was miserable sitting at this desk working on Excel spreadsheets, and I said, I've been listening to podcasts for a year or two now. I'm a former basketball player, I don't get to play anymore. What if I did a Basketball Focus podcast? Just gave my thoughts on what was happening in the NBA player drama, things like that, really anything, and hooked that up into my MacBook, opened up GarageBand and just started recording. And from that first episode around 2018 to 2022, now I'm a full time podcast producer. I make my living doing this. I've never had another job since graduating college, and this is what I do. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:06:41 So let's roll it back to that very first episode that you did about basketball. And now that you're in the position that you're in, that you're in, and you understand how sound works, and you're very good at this, by the way. Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:06:54 Thank you. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:06:54 Go back and evaluate that very first show and roll it back in your head and critique it in terms of sound. Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:07:02 If I had to give myself one positive note, I knew that I needed to not record in my kitchen or my living room. So I went into the closet of my apartment, I put all of the sweatshirts and jackets that I had and moved them as close to me as possible. And I remember sitting in the corner with my laptop on my lap and the microphone kind of really close to my face like this and speaking really quietly and critiquing myself. Now, I had no concept of how to remove Echo siblings plosives compression peaking. I was probably pushing like two or three DB above zero, which for non producers means that I was blowing out my listeners headphones. I had no concept of that running on GarageBand with just the stock plugins, and I really was just going through the plugins and going, this one looks fun, this one looks fun. What can I do to try and make this sound better? And that's really what my career has led to, is I didn't take any audio engineering classes. I really didn't look this stuff up on YouTube at all. It was really just trial and error with this podcast. So I haven't listened to that episode in a while. But I probably will go check it out after this one. And I'm sure it may be better than I remember, but it's the same with anyone who has a podcast. You get a certain number of episodes in and you compare it to your first episode and it's just a night and day difference, and that's how you know you're improving. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:08:21 Does that episode still exist? I'll assume you probably put it up on Lipson and it's still there. Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:08:25 I actually put it up on and you'll kill me for this. It was actually up on SoundCloud was my first hosting site, so that shows you how little I knew about all of it. I think it's still up somewhere, though. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:08:37 Yeah, I know I'm a big detractor of SoundCloud, but the only way I know not to use it is because in 2017, I put this podcast up on SoundCloud and it took about maybe about 30, 35 episodes before I thought, I really got to get out of here. Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:08:53 Yeah, I think I migrated it over to Anchor off of your recommendation, just as I had some downtime. And I remember you saying that when you have podcasts that aren't recording anymore, you don't want to keep charging them for the hosting cost, and they just keep getting a bill every single month just for a podcast that they're not continuing to live. And so I migrated it over to Anchor, and it is in the cemetery of tens of thousands of podcasts. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:09:18 Yeah, it's where the podcasts go to conveniently rest in purgatory, but they stay alive. So why not use it? Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:09:25 You might as well. And if you're someone that's doing a limited series, and I don't think there's a problem with leaving it on Anchor if you're someone that has it. You did a show for ten episodes and it was constructed to only be ten episodes, and they're really well produced and they're really well done, and they play an active part in whatever it is you're doing now, whether it's your job, your business, something. I think it's totally fine to just have it live there because it's for free and you're saving some money. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:09:51 Yeah, I guess the only time I would not recommend that is if you had a I'll use True Crime, for instance, and you wanted to go back and put some dynamic audio into update the series were to maybe remind us it and have some, hey, I've got new offerings and whatnot. So if you play in that ballpark, anchor might not be your thing. But if you're done with the show, there's nothing wrong with moving it over to Anchor when you're done. So after your basketball podcast adventure, did you want to start another podcast, or is this when the ideas for the business started? Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:10:25 So the idea for the business came very randomly and fortuitously. I think podcasters and CrossFitters are very similar in that you talk about it a lot and you basically tell everyone within the first five minutes of meeting them, oh, I have a podcast. Oh, I do CrossFit. Oh, I'm a vegan. It just comes up because you feel like it's something that makes you different from everybody else. So I remember sitting in my senior year of college, no job prospects, zero direction of what I wanted to do. I knew I wanted to do podcasting something in that way, but I had no idea of how to make that into a business or make money doing that. And one of my professors called on me in class to talk about something. It came up that I had a podcast, and she said, Stick around after class. I want to talk to you. I was like, Okay, that sounds pretty cool. I stick around after class. And she says, Hey, there's an alumni that wants to start a podcast. You think that you could help them get set up? And me, all the experience I have up to this point is about eight episodes recording into a blue, yeti still trying to figure out how to not make my earbuds blow out of proportion because I had no idea how to stop it from peaking. And I just said, yes, of course. And I did have the smarts to actually do prepare for this meeting. So I set a meeting with this guy's. Name is Chris Powers, who is probably the flagship of my business today, and he's a mentor of mine, and I wouldn't be where I am without him today. I do a bunch of research on him. I put together a whole one page, and I say, here's all the equipment that we need. Here's where we're going to host the podcast Anchor. Because that was my frame of reference, was putting it on Anchor. I said, Here's 15 different names that you could call the podcast. I know that you work in real estate. Here's ten of the biggest people in Fort Worth that do real estate that you can interview, and here's ten different topics that you can talk about with them. So really went above and beyond what I really needed to do for that meeting. Put on a suit, go and meet the guy, show him this presentation. And without even looking at it, he just takes I guess he looked at it, but takes one look over the sheet and goes, you're hired. And to this day, he's told me that the preparation that I put into that meeting was what sold him on me. And so me and him really worked together to launch this podcast, which to him now has become just an incredible benefit to his business in terms of bringing in investors to his real estate company. I think we just crossed over 50,000 downloads last month, and it's our third month in a row of hitting that number. I think we're going to cross three quarters of a million downloads overall. The life of the podcast, it's done extremely well. But really, I use that podcast to learn what equipment do we need, what microphones do we need, and then all of the back end production. How do I make two guests that are sitting in the same room together? How do I avoid mic bleed, how do I make sure their levels are the same? If someone's deciding to talk this far back from the microphone, how do I increase the gain on that? And so it was really just a work in progress for both of us, and that's really where I got started. About six months into that, I was, quote unquote, interning for him. I was about to graduate college, and he looks at me and he goes, there are more people like me that want to start podcasts but don't know how to do it. You should start a business doing this. And I kick myself my former self, because at the time, I was splitting my time between going to class, working on his podcast, and I was actually making money on the side, working as a desk attendant at the rec center on campus. And I was so nervous about jumping into entrepreneurship and starting my own business without that lack of a safety net and a steady paycheck coming in. I really didn't know. I was like, I don't know if I should quit my job at the wreck to do this with you. And he was like, that's a stupid idea, but you need to make your own decision. And he was very gracious. He wrote me a small check to fund me for the first year, just to keep my lights on and help me find business so I didn't have to do stuff on the side. And that really just launched me forward and the network that he provided me of people that he knows that are very successful in business, that combined with Twitter led me to I probably now manage twelve to 15 podcasts right now, doing all back in production for them. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:14:24 So if I think back to that initial interaction with Chris, I think the takeaway I have from it is the fact that you went and told him there are ten potential guests out there for you to interview. And so I think that's really important when people start a podcast, if you want to start a successful one, I usually say, what are your first three episodes sound like? But then I also say, well, what does episode ten sound like? You went a step further and said, here are ten right off the top that you should do. Because then immediately you get this idea of what the brand is going to sound like, what the show is going to sound like, and you're just going to be inviting people into the tent. So I thought that was really smart. I assume you still stick to that when you are launching new podcasts. Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:15:08 Yeah, I've cut it down now. It's my interactions with people since I'm more established, they'll come to me and give me a generic idea of what they're looking for and I'm not doing so much, necessarily so much prep beforehand, but I always encourage them, hey, if we're going to work together, we need to have at least four or five episodes produced in the can, ready to hit publish at any time. That way we give ourselves enough runway to where we're not looking at each other on Monday night going, we need to put something out tomorrow and we don't have anything recorded. So I try to build out that catalog of content with them beforehand so that they're not scrambling and rushing. And you're right, it does help them kind of actually materialize this podcast a little bit more in their mind because now that they have to sit down and write down, who am I going to talk to, it kind of gets you out of that sort of I don't even know the word. But you're in this phase where you're just so excited about launching a podcast, you're not even thinking about the content side of it, you're just excited about the pretty microphone and having cool cover art and music and things like that, that you're not really playing. Once you're actually sitting down and planning who you're going to talk to and what you're going to talk about, that makes it feel a lot more real and gets them a lot more committed to the concept. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:16:19 Did you know you were going in and creating branded podcasts? Like, did you understand that term or. Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:16:23 Did you just say, I just kind of figuring it out as you go. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:16:29 And so when you're figuring it out as you go, how do you tell clients not to be too salesy when talking about their brand or their products? Did you have to do that with any clients? Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:16:41 Define like, are they selling it to potential guests or selling their podcast where. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:16:46 The podcast sounds like just self promotion, like an infomercial that you would hear, right? Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:16:50 Yeah. The way that you go around that is I say that you need to have a certain goal when you start out. You need to have a concrete reason for why you're doing this. And the majority of the people that I work with, they're using it as a sort of way to elevate themselves or their brand. And we have to make a delineation between me as the host of this branded podcast, I can't be plugging what I'm doing all the time. We need to focus on the guest and create value for who's listening. And then the goal of the podcast is to either bring this guest needs to become a client and this is sort of my foot in the door with that person, or we need to maneuver the audience, leverage the audience to trust us and then use advertisements either at the pre role, the mid roll, the post roll, or in the show description of hey, we're doing the podcast because of X. If you want to invest in my real estate fund, you can do it here. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:17:38 So here's a question that pops up every 2 seconds in the Facebook groups for people like that. Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:17:46 I got off of those groups so long ago, we can talk about that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:17:51 Well, I guess the question that comes up all the time is how do I get more downloads? And you're dealing with some podcasts that have a lot of downloads. Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:17:59 Yeah. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:17:59 So I think we're going to have. Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:18:01 To ask you how, how do you get more downloads? Yeah, by not focusing on the downloads. And I think that you and I share that sentiment. So I'm a big believer in the quality of the listener over the quantity of the listener. And then I get that question every single time too, is how do I get a bigger audience? It's not so much how you get a bigger audience, it's how do you get the most leverage out of the people who are listening. And if your goal is to get a lot more listeners, then you need to refine what your podcast is about. If your podcast is just about how to buy a home for a single unmarried person in northern Texas, your audience isn't that big. But if you change what your podcast is going to be about to reach more people, now you have a chance. And then it all comes down to who's the guest that you're bringing on. Can you get that guest on cross collaborations, promotions? Maybe you got to sink a little bit maybe you have to sink a little bit of money into promoting your podcast all over the internet. The downloads don't come out of the gate. I'm also probably the biggest way that you get more downloads is you have to be big online somewhere other than your podcast. You need to create a following on either Twitter, you need to be big on LinkedIn. People need to know you for something once they know you for something. By the way, I have a podcast. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:19:20 Yeah, it doesn't start the other way with I have a podcast. You should listen to us. Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:19:23 Exactly. If people trust you for something that you've already accomplished, whether it's an online following, whether it's for being really big in an industry, if you're good at something and you build a podcast based on what you're good at, that is the best way that you grow your audience. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:19:37 I find it a little frustrating sometimes, but I know a lot of people are eager to have their podcast heard. My answer is generally, I say to people, you go up to somebody on the street, you ask if they have heard of your podcast. If they say no, you should push their head into a toilet. I mean, a lot of people like that answer, but sometimes I'm like, I don't know how you can't really make somebody listen to your show. You actually have to put something out there in order for them to want to engage them and bring them in. Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:20:07 And word of mouth is still the best, most effective way to grow your podcast. People aren't going to trust Matt telling them some guy Matt they've never heard of to listen to the The Sound Off podcast. They're going to listen to Jeff, who's a huge fan of the Sound Off podcast. That's my friend from college who says, hey, I think you'd really like this podcast. You should check it out. And the only way that you can get Jeff to do that is by asking for it one and putting out a product that Jeff now feels comfortable and this sounds more extreme than it is, but putting his reputation on the line by recommending this to somebody else. So it's a collaboration of you putting in a ton of work on your podcast to make a great product so that people feel good enough about it to put their name on it and say, I recommend this to you. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:20:53 In that time, I'm going to be writing Jeff here a check or recommending podcast to people. Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:20:59 And that's something that you can do, too. You can say, look, you would have to put a lot of work into it, but you can do some kind of giveaway of saying, like, whoever gets me the most emails to my podcast subscription newsletter list, you get put into a drawing for a $50 Amazon gift card. There is a lot of you just. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:21:16 Got to get creative with it in just a second. More with Johnny as he tells us why his newsletter is so successful. The problem with celebrity podcasts and how do you get more downloads? Yeah, we kicked that age old question around just one more time, only to get a different answer again. There's more. There's always more. Such as links to the new podcast we just started, the podcast Super Friends. And you know what else? A transcription of this episode. Head on over to Soundoffpodcast.com now to get one transcription. Sarah Burke (Voiceover) 00:21:51 The The Sound Off podcast. Powered by Poddin. Your podcast is an SEO goldmine. We help you to dig out start your free trial now at poddio dot IO Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:21:51 The Sound Off Podcast! With Mstt Cundill Matt Cundill (Host) 00:22:07 There's two things that I can be really succinct about. When I talk to somebody who says, why can't I have more downloads? Or why don't I have more. It feels like it's mean, but it's not. Are you boring? Is this show boring or potentially is the subject matter just not relevant to enough people? Maybe you find it important that you think you're going to get thousands, but maybe it's only valuable for hundreds. Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:22:31 And that's something that you really have to think about, because ideally, if you're starting a podcast, you're doing it in a niche that you're the expert in, you are the guy. And if it's something that you are an expert in, you likely care a lot about it. You have to combine that with understanding, who is my market? Is my market 50 people, or is my market 50,000 people? And once you kind of square that away in your soul and understand that the podcast that I'm putting out there just doesn't have the reach or the you know, it just doesn't have the running power to get Joe Rogan level numbers, you have to be okay with that. And once people are okay with that, that's kind of where I spend a lot of my time steering clients in that direction of, look, this is what your audience likely looks like. You have to be okay with that. Now, how can we maximize these 50 people? Obviously, it's more than 50, but and then with the boring part of it, I think it's so true. Something that I harp on all the time is you have to have high energy when you're doing a podcast. You have to be you have to sound like you give a shit about what you're talking about. And if you don't, you think you can just turn on the microphone and just sort of read off of a script and go, welcome back to the Huland Overton Ridge podcast. This is John Peterson. We're going to be talking about Johnny renting this tuxedo for his wedding. If you sound like who cares about that? If you don't sound like you care enough about what you're talking about, why should somebody else care enough to give you the time of day to listen and then a step beyond that, recommend it to other people? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:23:55 So I want to use a sports analogy when it comes to choosing your niche and being I know we want to be number one in the zone. So whether it's about broadcast or real estate, I don't need to be the best. I do want to be top three. Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:24:10 Okay? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:24:11 And so if I were to use a basketball analogy, if it's your ball and you're down by two points and there's 10 seconds on the clock, I think you're in a great shot, in a great position to make that final shot in order to win the game. Same thing with hockey. I don't care if we're down four or three and there's two minutes to go. I know we can tie the game up or go win it. So I think a lot of people think, Oh, I've got to have a niche and be at the top. But it takes three years to build your podcast. I think we've kind of established that in a radio station and any brand for that matter. But just to be close and towards the top is going to be good enough, especially for year one. Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:24:47 Yeah, you just need to make yourself competitive and build a product that's going to have legs. If you are one year into it and you're really starting to burn out, you either need to change up what you're doing or just throw in the towel. But, yeah, I agree. You need to not worry about winning the game right out of the bat. You need to worry about putting yourself in a position to win the game. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:25:09 So what happens when you do get 50,000 downloads a month, for example, with Chris's podcast? That, by the way, is in the show notes of this episode. If you'd like to go dig into some real estate and get involved with that. But when you get to 50,000, you feel like you're at the top of the mountain, but you got to keep climbing. Now what? Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:25:25 Now what? Now we revisit our goal. Are we accomplishing the goal that we've set out for? And it comes with a nice little set of perks on the side of it. Chris did not care if this podcast made any money, but his brand, he has 60,000 followers on Twitter. He leveraged that into more listeners for the podcast. Now we can make a little bit of cheddar on the side, a little bit of scratch. We can sell ads we can approach. And that's sort of where I'm sure this question is coming, is how do I get advertisers? How do I get Dollar Shave Club to advertise on my podcast? I steer people away from that. If we want to get into the ad part of it, we can. But again, it's reevaluating your goal and then understanding that you've now unlocked a little bit of prize stuff on the side. And that's going to be you can now advertise reasonably. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:26:13 How did you become a podcast super friend? Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:26:18 Actually, it was whatever poor SAP was doing or set off the fire alarm in the Orlando podcast movement. And we get stuck outside in the 90 degree heat and I hear someone talking about something industry interesting, and I turn over and who's standing right in front of me but John Gay. From Jack and Detroit podcast. We get to chatting, we exchange information, and then I also run into a woman named Catherine O'Brien at another session. And then, honestly, I don't even remember how the group came together, but I remember bringing Jack in. I think Catherine wanted to start it and she knew us separately and brought us all together. And I thought of Jack. I was like, he'd be a great addition to this group. And then we brought in David as well, we give this pitch all the time, but we are solopreneurs. We don't have bosses except for our clients. We don't necessarily have coworkers. A lot of them are sort of remote contract workers, but we're not going to an office every day with people experiencing the same shit show as us and the same problems. And we said this would be a great opportunity for us to all come together and sort of bounce ideas off of each other. Tech issues, business issues, how do you do bookkeeping, how do you do accounting? How do you bill your clients? What are you charging? How do we adjust our prices? How do you pitch a new client, how do you find new clients? And having four other people that are doing what you're doing in the same sphere has been so helpful. And then we've obviously grown that into becoming the Super Friends, where we say we need to share what we're talking about with every other person that doesn't have access to the information that we do. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:27:55 And I met Catherine, I think it was 2016 or 2017 at Podcast Movement once again, which is going to be in your backyard down in Dallas Fort Worth area, and it's going to be coming up in August. You'll be there. I'll get to meet you finally. Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:28:12 Have we not met in person? Oh, my God. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:28:15 You know, I haven't even met Jon Gay in person. Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:28:19 How tall are you? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:28:21 5' 10". Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:28:22 Okay. It's nice to have I just want to picture that because I've met remote clients before in person. I go, wow, you're way taller than I thought you were going to be, or you're way shorter than I thought you were going to be. And so it's good to have that height in perspective. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:28:34 5' 10" and a half. Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:28:35 5' 10" and a half, okay. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:28:42 Well, how tall are you? Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:28:43 I'm six two. All right, six three on a good day. Okay. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:28:47 Because we're not going to do any one on one, right? Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:28:49 No, but I'll bring a ball if we want to find a hoop somewhere and do something. But I think the majority of our time will be spent at the bar. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:28:56 Yeah. What's your drink of choice? Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:29:00 Whiskey, neat. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:29:03 Yeah. Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:29:04 What about you? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:29:05 I'll order a Manhattan and then I'll order a second Manhattan, and then I'll just start reaching for wine. Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:29:11 If I have the choice between a Manhattan and shit, I'm forgetting my favorite drink. What's the other one? Old Fashioned. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:29:20 Fashioned. Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:29:20 Old Fashioned. If I'm between Manhattan and Old Fashioned, I'm taking an Old Fashioned, but I haven't found a great it's so different. Every bar you go to, it depends on the bartender who's making it. And I just have had such bad luck with Old Fashioned that I just do makers. Neat or Buffalo Trace? Neat. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:29:39 It's funny how we've become friends, especially over the course of the pandemic. And I guess the way the podcast SuperFriend started, we started meeting one friday a month to discuss the things that you were talking about, whether it was bookkeeping or best practices for podcasting, and finding the right people and editing tactics. And now I think one of the things that you always bring to the table is definitely audio, but I'm really liking your setup that you have now. So tell me about the microphone that you're using. We've talked about what not to use, and that's the Blue Yeti. And five out of five podcast producers of the Super Friends agree that the yeti is not something you want to use, but what are you using now? Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:30:17 Right now I'm running with the Sure MV Seven XLR model only. So the MV Seven is an offshoot of the SM Seven. B tried to make it a little bit more affordable as more people were getting into podcasts. And then from there, they split up into two models. I have the XLR only. And then they made the MV Seven with a USB attachment for people who don't want to take that extra text step. So how am I running into the computer, you might ask, because it's an XLR cable. I am not using an XLR to USB, which I had to tell somebody on a consulting call. That's why your sound sucks, because it is sort of this, like, Frankenstein cable that was made together that shouldn't exist. So I'm running it through the Elgato Wave XLR, which allows me to run the XLR cable into this beautiful piece of tech. A USB C is coming out of it, and I'm running that into my Mac mini. And that is how we are hearing myself today. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:31:10 So is that device like a Focus right? Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:31:12 It's similar to a Focus, right? Yeah, but it's only got one XLR input, and it's got three modes here, so I can change. They've made it a lot easier. The Focus has a lot of dials and buttons and lights, and they made this very simple. A lot of people use it for streaming, like, we're live on Twitch right now. A lot of Twitch streamers use this so I can click between it's currently at my headphone level, so if you're really loud, I can turn down how much I'm able to hear you, or I can turn it back up. I can click here, which is the mixed style, where if I want to hear how I'm coming back to myself, I can turn that up or all the way down. And if I just click it again, it goes to my microphone level. So if I feel like I'm coming off a little quiet, I can turn myself up a little bit or down. And then on the top is a beautiful mute button where you just touch it, it turns red and I'm muted. So it's very intuitive and I'm very impressed with it. I think that only runs about 160. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:32:04 It's a cough switch. Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:32:06 It's a cough switch, basically, yeah. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:32:08 It says mute, but what are you really doing while you're muted? Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:32:11 I'm clearing my throat. I'm hawking a loogie or spraying covet all over the room. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:32:18 So what do you recommend for your clients for recording? Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:32:22 So a lot of people are people think, and I used to be in this line of thinking too, is that you need to pimp out your room with a bunch of sound tiles. You need to have people in person. It's not as feasible to do in person podcasts anymore. The advent of the Internet and technology and social media has allowed you and I, we would never have met 20 years ago. We would have no idea who each other are. We would walk past each other on the street and have no clue that we're in the same industry unless we met at some conference. So what I recommend to people is Riverside, to be able to reach the most talented and the most expert people in their field. That fits within your niche. I recommend the MB Seven USB. It's a little bit of extra money, but it saves you that extra step of getting the Scarlet Focus right or getting this Wave XLR plugs directly into your computer. Let's record everything into Riverside and a set of headphones. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:33:14 So you mentioned the Shore MV Seven. How does that compare to the ATR 2100 or the Samsung Q two U, which are highly recommended by a lot of podcasting pros. Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:33:26 It really depends. The MV Seven costs $250, and I'm a genuine believer that you get what you pay for. However, that doesn't necessarily apply to the Samsung Q to you. I think that this one just gives a little bit more of that podcasting aesthetic versus the Q to you. I have a broken Q to you in my closet, so it is prone to breaking because you're only paying $70 for it. I think that if you're wanting to start a podcast, you kind of want the look of a podcaster as well to go with it. So it really depends on what you're willing to spend on your money. You can get a good sound from the Samsung Q to you, but I just recommend this because it gives people that feeling of, okay, I'm a podcaster. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:34:08 Now, so sometimes I'll have clients and they'll come to me and they want to edit their own show and I'll teach them. But one of the problems I've had is recommending a digital audio workstation. You mentioned GarageBand when you first started. What would you recommend to somebody who's thinking about editing their own audio? Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:34:28 Most people that I interact with have MacBooks. If you really wanted to edit your own podcast, GarageBand is free. I wouldn't recommend Audacity. I know Steve Stewart makes a beautiful living using Audacity. I just think the user interface is not compatible with the next generation of podcasters. We're used to sleek looking technology, and Audacity just is really hard to navigate. It looks like it was built in 1980 and it still looks like it was built in 1980. Garage Band is a really friendly solution. If you are already using Photoshop or Illustrator or any of the Adobe Suite products. You can kind of add on, I think whatever the Adobe Audio, I think it's not Premiere. Premiere the video Audition. You can use that. But I upgraded once I realized that this was going to be my full time business. I make all of my audio off of Logic Pro X, which is sort of just the paid version of GarageBand as an upgrade. If you want to upgrade to Logic Pro X, it's $200.01 time payment. Or you can do Adobe Audition, which is a monthly recurring subscription, which I don't care for. So that's why I've moved away from there, or I stay away from audition. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:35:36 And you talked a little bit about marketing your company straight up podcast and the newsletter, and you speak to the power of the newsletter. I'm very lazy with mine. What am I missing out? Convince me I need to do it on a more regular basis. Yours shows up every Monday at 06:00, a.m. Central time. Tell me why I need to get more involved with this. Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:36:01 I don't think you need to. You have your podcast. That's how you're marketing yourself. I don't currently have a podcast, so I think a newsletter the newsletter really isn't so much to market my business, but actually it's to promote myself as an expert in what I do. And it also keeps me accountable to something that's hard. It's hard to sit down on Sunday and go, all right, I need to think about a topic to write about that people who are interested in podcasting are going to care about, and maybe it's something that I'm going to learn along the way too. I also have a section that says I basically break down the newsletter into three sections. It's something to think about, something to read, and something to watch. So I try to make it as simple as possible. The something to think about section is something that has to come from my own brain. What am I seeing in the world of podcasting right now that I think is interesting, and what kind of take do I have on it? That day, like this past Monday, was about an NBA player for the Golden State Warriors who is actually producing a podcast after each Finals game. So he's playing in the NBA Finals. He'll go to his hotel room and he's recording a 30 minutes podcast, breaking down his thoughts on what just happened, which is not something we're seeing. This is not something we've seen before. And so I wanted to talk about. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:37:09 That, actually, that's doing so well. I know about that. Yeah, because I'll screw the name up. Is it Draymond. Green who is got his podcast with the Volume Network, which is Colin Cow herds Network, and I believe he's getting some pushback because he's not playing very well. But he's got time to podcast. Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:37:31 Exactly. And I just watched The Last Dance a couple of weekends ago. People have done worse. Dennis Robin was going to host WWE during the NBA Finals. They say that Michael Jordan was up gambling until four in the morning during finals games. I think that going to my hotel room and recording my thoughts on the job that I just did for 30 minutes. I think there could be worse things. And I got an email response about it saying, like, why is he doing this? Why do you think he's doing this? Well, if you've heard that, you've heard of the NBA TNT show. You've got Shaq Charles Barkley. It's like one of the biggest broadcasts, one of the best performing broadcast shows of the last 20 years. Green already has his spot on that show lined up. Those guys are aging out. He's already stepped in and filled in when his team wasn't in the playoffs a couple of years back, so he's set for that. He's just getting reps behind the microphone and he's building up an audience that he's going to have on the side because he's not going to be paid to be in the NBA forever, but he can be paid to do this podcast forever. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:38:29 Wait a second. You're telling me you just watched The Last Dance a few weeks ago? Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:38:35 I re watched it. I watched it during The Lockdowns when it came out, but it's just one of the best I think it's the best documentary I've ever watched, and so I spent 10 hours over the weekend watching it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:38:46 I think the best part about that is you don't have to be a basketball fan in order to really appreciate it and love it. No, I still see more Michael Jordan shirts around the world than I do LeBron James. Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:39:00 Exactly. They did such a fantastic job of turning it into a story. And that's why you're right, you don't have to be a basketball fan, but you see all of these characters, all of these players within this drama of trying to get all these personalities to come together and win. And that's, I think, ties back to the The Sound Off podcast don't necessarily have to be a fan of whatever podcast you're listening to, but if you can tell the story in the right way, you can attract so many people to listen to it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:39:27 What's something that keeps you up at night with regards to podcasting in the future? Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:39:35 I'll open up the veil a little bit. Something that keeps me up at night is the economy is not doing great. We all know that. What's the easiest thing for someone to cut out of their budget? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:39:46 Advertising. Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:39:47 Always they are advertising their podcast, their podcast editor, their podcast producer. And so I am constantly worried about what ways can I further add value to my clients in order to show them what they're doing matters. But in terms of the podcasting industry, something that bothers me, I think, is the people that get into it because celebrities, specifically, they get into it because it's the hot thing. It annoyed me when Barack Obama and Bruce Springsteen started a podcast and just put literally zero effort into it. But they knew that you got Obama and Springsteen's name tied to it. We're going to make a bag doing that. Whatever. It's a podcast. So it bothers me when people don't have a passion for the craft, which is people can look at me and say, well, that seems like a silly thing to care about, but I love this medium so much. It's what I was born to do, and I was lucky to figure out when I was 22. But it bothers me when people start podcasting for the wrong reasons. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:40:47 Don't you think that celebrities are going to get their come up and when it comes to that, like, people will listen to it for about three or four episodes and they go, that's nice, Bruce Springsteen. I really like you on the other end of Spotify when I'm listening to the songs and Barack Obama, that's nice and interesting. We've heard you before talking, and people flame out, because I do see that with celebrity podcast, the first four episodes are great, and then it drops down, and unless they really keep at it, then it might off. Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:41:15 They really can ride on the coattails of their celebrity for really three to four episodes, and then people keep listening and they go, you are not as talented at this as I thought you would be. And it's hard to kind of you can't just ride on the name of your celebrity forever. So the folks that do stand out that are really good at this, like DAX Shepard, fantastic podcaster, great actor. At one point, a stand up comedian. But he's really coming to his own in podcasting. So that excites me, too, is that it's going to give people like DAX Shepherd dream on Green, people that excel in other aspects of life that can also excel in podcasting. So that, I guess, is the bright side of all this. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:41:51 What's your podcast app of choice? Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:41:54 Spotify. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:41:55 What's your next favorite? Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:41:56 I like that my music and my podcasts are together, and I like that Spotify has the interactive time codes where I can just jump to different parts of an episode. And I also like that there's the video integration. If I'm going to watch Joe Rogan, I can actually watch it on my phone, which is nice. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:42:13 Okay, that's interesting that you mentioned about the time codes because I've seen it show up, but not everybody knows this. It's a bit of a hack, almost. I'm surprised more people don't know it. So why don't you explain to everybody who has a podcast about how you use those time codes and they kind of act like chapter markers, but they're not really. Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:42:31 Yeah, they absolutely act like chapter markers. And this is one of my biggest upsells with all of my clients. I say you should have time codes in your podcast. And my sort of offering to that is as I'm going through and editing, I will mark down the time code. So if you're adding your own podcast, you're going through and you hit the point and you hit pause and it says nine minutes and 2 seconds. That's when I start to ask him the question about why he started his first business. I now put that into my show notes. I put Parenthetical 902 and Parenthetical and on Spotify that will coat it in the show notes to where I can just tap it and it will jump to that section in the podcast so I don't have to listen through and not necessarily know where the conversation is going to go. I can jump around and only listen to the parts that I want to listen to. Like, I have had one podcast where at the end of every episode, he asks his guest, what is the purpose of business, and he always gets really cool answers about it. And he's had guests come on and say, I love that you asked that question, and it's really my favorite part to listen to. I'll even skip to the end of the podcast and listen to that part first and then listen to the rest of the episode. So it allows people that have a favorite segment of your podcast to jump to that directly. Or if I'm a brand new listener, I'm not entirely sure that I want to dedicate an hour to your podcast. I can scroll through the shutdown. Oh, that seems like an interesting topic. Tap that. Listen to that ten minute segment. I've still given you a download. I still might give you a subscribe. I don't have to necessarily consume the entire episode, but I'm now a listener of your podcast. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:44:03 Is Spotify the only one that that works with? Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:44:05 As far as I know, yes. Don't quote me on that. I'm sure the other ones do. I know that Apple does not, which is infuriating. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:44:14 Yeah. So more people will listen to my podcast on Apple than on Spotify. Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:44:19 As with most podcasts, I would love. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:44:23 To do that and take the time to put those chapter markers in. It might be effective. But I've gone another route and started to do transcription instead. Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:44:32 Transcripts are great. I think those are fantastic options. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:44:35 I just don't know. I guess it comes down to how much time we have to put into every episode, because I could do one episode and then spend the next six days polishing it up and having every bell and whistle into the show. But it really does come out to time and choice. I mean, even artwork, for instance. Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:44:53 Oh, absolutely. And that's why I think it's best fit for someone who has the time to do that, or they're paying someone like us to put their podcast together on the back end. So it's really a value add kind of deal. And the way that I sell people on it is you want to make this. Your podcast is now in a sea of other shows that people have so much to choose from. And even outside of podcasting, I could go to YouTube, Instagram, Reels, Ticktok, even. There's so much there to choose from. How do you stand out? And if your podcast is just I click on the episode description and it's just two paragraphs of my name is Bill Joe, and I spent time with Bill Smith today, and he's the CEO of this manufacturing company. Enjoy. I don't really have a lot to go off of, but if I have all of the links to all of my social media, all of the links to build social media, every single topic that we talk about, and you can just scroll and you go, wow, someone put a lot of time into this. This is a much more professional product than the other podcast I was going to listen to where I only got two sentences out of it. You're now taking something that is essentially the same product, but now mine has much more perceived value. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:46:02 What's the biggest marketing mistake people make with their podcasts? Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:46:07 You got me on that one. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:46:08 No website. Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:46:09 No website. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:46:17 I was just wondering if that one would come out, but I'm thinking, yeah, there's that one and it really is just no website. I think you need to have one. Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:46:25 I agree. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:46:26 Yeah. Johnny, what's the future of straight up podcasts look like for the rest of the year? More clients, more podcasts, more numbers and more downloads? Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:46:35 I think so. I really just want to become better at what I do. I want to make audio sound better so I can continue to pursue my passion of making podcasts. I think I'm going to move away from the straight up podcast name, though. I really started adopted this Johnny podcast persona, and I think tying that as the official business name, I think is probably the way to go. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:46:55 Well, I hope you have secured the domain. Okay, good, because I wasn't going to. Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:47:00 Release the episode until you no, I bought Johnnypodcast.com. I own that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:47:04 All right, Johnny, thanks so much for doing this and being on the show. Johnny Peterson (Guest) 00:47:08 Thank you, Matt. Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:47:09 The Sound Off Podcast, written and hosted by Matt Cundill, produced by Evan Surminski. Social media by Courtney Krebsbach. Another great creation from the the Soundoff media company. There's always more at soundoffpocket.com.

Every time we have a radio veteran on the podcast, the conversation shifts to the future of radio at least once. But it's always about the future with Marty Forbes. He always has had an eye towards it. It's no secret that the broadcast industry is struggling to keep up with the times. But few guests have quite the depth of insight into radio's slow demise that Marty Forbes brings. A lifelong Program Director, VP and GM at stations like CKFM 99.9, the Bear in Edmonton, CISL, CKKS, CJAX, CKSL, and his first gig at CKNL in Kamloops, Marty knows the ins and outs of broadcasting in a way few others can match. He's seen far too many stations fail to meet the shifting tides of the media market, or more commonly, hurt themselves worse in the attempt. In 2009, Marty started Radiowise Inc. to help as many companies as possible to launch, rebuild, and evolve while avoiding these issues. However, since he decided to shut down Radiowise, now seems liek athe right time to ask him about the specific problems he's seen. Together, we dive into the challenges radio stations face in 2022, the way many companies are failing to address them, and the problems with the CRTC's stagnant grip on broadcasting. We also discuss Marty's extensive catalogue of public service efforts, but did not have a chance to list off the specifics. He's a recipient of the Queen Elizabeth II Diamond Jubilee Medal for community service, and he's been directly involved with a staggering number of charitable organizations: The Jerry Forbes Centre, Santas Anonymous, the Edmonton Singing Christmas Tree, Crescendo, and the John Cameron Changing Lives Foundation. If you want to hear more from Marty, you can check out his blog, Marty's Musings, where he talks about everything from business advice to travel planning. You can also connect with him on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram or LinkedIn. If anything - do it for the travel advice! If you were working at a station where Marty was, it was going to be fun. This video was shot back in 2002 right around the time EZ Rock 104.9 was coming into the building. The station went on to become what is now Virgin, but if I recall correctly, this was a welcome lunch for everyone involved and the building was about to get bigger. Matt appears in the video at some point and would be leaving for Montreal after 8 years in Edmonton. Transcript: Tara Sands (VO) 00:00:01 The Sound Off podcast. The podcast about broadcast with Matt Cundill.... starts now. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:11 This week, it's the return of Marty Forbes. It's been five years, nine months and six days since his last appearance on this program. Perhaps it's because we talk at least once a month about things. How it was, how it is, how it should be, and how it's going to be. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:27 I thought, I'm going to wait for the perfect time to bring him on again. Well, that time is now. The Forbes family name is legendary. His father Jerry, setting the tone in Edmonton at 630 CHED with personality, charity, community and service. And Marty, Jerry and Gord carrying those values for the last four decades in cities across Canada. Marty left Astral Radio shortly after it was sold by Standard and started up Radio Wise to work with organizations on everything from transforming them into the digital space, to working with traditional media to get value for their promos and ad dollars. In short, he sees both the value of digital and traditional media in a world that so often sees it as one versus the other. And that's why we call him the Whiz. He's in the process of winding down Radiowise, traveling more and spending time with Liam, his grandson. Marty Forbes joins me from his home in Edmonton, Alberta. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:23 Marty, why are you shutting down Radiowise? Marty Forbes (Guest) 00:01:25 Well, I like to use analogies. Remember those turkeys that used to have a little thing that popped up, little red thing, when it was done and the thing would pop up? Mine popped up. Over the last two years of COVID, basically all the business that I had either was shut down or really pulled back. And when this province opened up on April 1, all of my clients said, okay, we're ready to go again. But instead of what they were usually going to do, it was all of a sudden, okay, we have to catch up for two years of lost revenue. Two and a half years of lost revenue. So Radiowise has set up more for a hobby job to keep me involved and keep me relevant. And I was lucky enough to be able to choose projects that I wanted to be involved in that either paid it forward or did something for the industry. And all of a sudden, I'll use John Cameron, with them for twelve years, doing all of their concert business. Instead of one show, John now has a five year plan. It includes Calgary and travel and Christmas. And all of a sudden it was just, Holy Marco. This alone is a big project, and almost everybody that I was dealing with, I finally said to them, look, I've got some family time, I got to catch up now too. I lost three trips to Europe last year, all three with Kim, my wife. So she hasn't basically had a holiday for three years. So I thought, it's time, shut it down. Shut it down fully and start to focus on my life, and multiplying the effect was losing so many friends over the last year, and a great number of them are younger than I was or I am. So to sit back and say, there's all these indications, and that little red pop up says it's time to catch up on travel and catch up on my family, spend some time with my grandchild who I just adore, and I shut it down and I feel good about it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:03:20 Well, last time you and I spoke, it was 2016 and you were in Arizona and you'd gone to high VO and studied and had really embraced the digital side of things. So why did you come back to Edmonton? Marty Forbes (Guest) 00:03:33 The biggest thing was the grandchild. All of a sudden, Iran let us know. It's going to be the only child that she's going to have. And for the first two years of his life, I mean, he was still googoo gaga, not doing much, and all of a sudden I got thinking, I want to be part of this kid's life and not just a FaceTime on Christmas or his birthday or Grandpa's day, as I like to call it. And it was a tough decision because that time in Arizona, the time in the States came as radio was kind of devolving and digital was evolving, and I ended up hanging with some pretty amazing people and watching some really interesting things happening in the digital world. And of course, it was moving at the speed of light, and it was coming from non broadcasters, non broadcast companies. So while radio and television and print were trying to adapt to everything that it had to deal with, all of a sudden I'm in with Pandora and EA Sports and Spotify, and looking at what these guys are doing in what I call a no-rules environment. They were building companies, adapting those companies, changing them without regulation, without CRTC, without FCC. And today you look at what is going on with some pretty amazing stuff out there. And when you look back at the people that left the broadcast industry in the last five or six years, specifically, they had so much passion in the business that they decided to evolve, too. And you look at, I think, Maureen Holloway and Wendy Messley just launched their brand new podcast, it launches at number one. How come? Well, because they're really qualified ladies, really in touch and are off to a great start. Ryan Jefferson lost his job at CHED here and has invented a really neat template of what he does with his new daily talk show and utilizes digital in every proper capacity. That is really cool. You look at Linda Steele and Jody Vance- again, two highly qualified, respected industry people, and they've invented a new show. And listening to Connie Tiesen talking to them on the Broadcast Dialogue podcast the other day, they were proud that they own the show. And I think that's really cool because they can move on a whim and not have to worry about going to Toronto for approval of something or somebody saying you can't do that or it'll never work. They're willing to try. So the digital age for me was really cool because I got to get back here and work with clients to try to understand how to use traditional media for its strengths, but to have a digital effect, to do short form for radio, long form for podcasts, I love to talk about it and how database marketing works and what you should be doing with your Facebook business site and your Twitter sites. So it was an exciting time for me. I really wanted to stay relevant, I always have. But it just came to a funnel where I said, okay, this is a big right turn in my life and I better do it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:06:26 Well, you're a great person to ask this question too, because I went to Canadian Music Week and the normal two or three days that used to be with radio was sort of a one online and one in person. One of the in person sessions had some digital marketing people who were on stage and they were talking about placing ad buys. And you've done a lot of work in that area with Radiowise. So does radio have an attribution problem? Because two of the things that I heard, and I'm not sure if it's- it kind of made me go, what? And they said, radio doesn't turn the copy and creative around quick enough compared to digital. And the other part was that the attribution is wildly different and not really as up to speed as digital. Is that true? Marty Forbes (Guest) 00:07:06 In a lot of ways, yes. If you saw Victor Kwee, the new Elk's President, and an incredible person, just fed out his thoughts today on digital and the analytics of what it brings. And that's the biggest strength. I moved almost all of my clients into programmatic last fall, and when you can provide your clients with amazing targeting, we did a Campaign for Fairness Alberta that was directed to Edmonton, Calgary. It also had an Ottawa component and a Toronto business component, and we could pinpoint where the message was going to go and to be relevant with the problem that we have to do with equalization payments. We even did a French version that was dropped into the French areas of Ottawa. And I can go back to the client for a 10th of the price that traditional was charging to do this kind of work and show them the effect and literally follow that digital trail, where it takes them, from seeing that somebody in Ottawa dialed in on an iPhone and they went to the website, they read this column, they went to the podcast, and they bailed out of the podcast at the twelve minute mark, for example. And if you saw a trend with that. You could go back to that twelve minute mark and say, okay, we went off track there, so we needed it. So radio, the hardest problem I had with radio over the last little while is the decentralization of all decisions. So I would take my clients into a radio station. I'd be dealing with a new person almost every single year. A lot of them had just come out of a broadcast school or from someplace else and have to explain to them what this John Cameron thing is and why it worked and why it needs the station's support, and why it was good for them to do a promotion with us. And they said, well, okay, well, it's got to go to a central pool in Toronto. We'll get back to you in a week or two, depending if they can get to this decision. And now, all of a sudden, I'm relying on somebody in Toronto who's probably never left Mississauga to make a major decision while I'm sitting there high and dry with a show that I have to promote and sell 15,000 tickets. When we did it digitally alone last year, or excuse me, the shutdown year before COVID, we sold 15,000 tickets to this show without spending one penny on traditional media. And that's disturbing. This is how I grew up. This is my life. But the messaging and the coverage for traditional is to get people to utilize your digital. I mean, make sure that you drive them to the website, that you can buy their product, or get the information, or contact a human being by name to do the product. So it's working radio and digital together. And of note, almost every major company now has a national digital corporation within them, or a third party where they can do all aspects, including podcasting. And actually, some of them are now pooling their sales to include billboards, newspapers, magazines, whatever, all under one roof. So it's changed dramatically. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:10:06 So radio has a perception problem, because when we talk about it, we really don't think digital at all. So I'm going to give you the keys to a radio station. How are you going to change the public perception of radio so that we think digitally as well? Marty Forbes (Guest) 00:10:21 Well, I think the Fred Jacobs Report that came out a couple of weeks ago, and Jeff Vidler complimented it with some research that just came out as well. And back to my analogy here. When Kim and I choose a favorite restaurant, you go to that restaurant that you're so familiar with, you go all the time for all those special occasions, and all of a sudden, menu has dropped from 25 things to twelve things, and all of your favorites are gone. I think that's what's happened right now is radio has taken off so many things that Joe Average liked to consume, and that showed up in Jeff's research, information, and entertainment. So what are these companies been doing well. They've been voice tracking all nights, voice tracking weekends, and all of a sudden, that has spread to every aspect. In Edmonton, for example, we have three morning shows that come from outside the market, one from Halifax, one from Seattle, and one repackaged from the day before out of Vancouver. And we just had the Edmonton Oilers that own the city. As you well know, the city of a million and a half, almost now. To the third round of the playoffs, where 18,000 people are going to the games, another 8000-10,000 are in the downtown core. Every business is dressed up in their Oilers outfits, and you're going to turn the radio stations on the next day. There won't be a word of it. You can't capture that. So bit by bit, over the last number of years, we've taken all those tune-in things off radio, and it's allowed them to move to other platforms. That's just line about a red flag. This is the red flag. We're now raising an entire demographic that is not using traditional media of any sort. My daughters don't have cable anymore. They don't watch TV. They know they can get anything they want, wherever they want on their cell phone. And until we can start getting the very basics of what made radio good- really good morning shows, community involvement, being actively involved in the city, bringing the general managers where the stations have them, back into the United Way, back into all these fundraising events, and being partners in what makes a great city great, that's the hardest part for me to realize. People don't quite understand that because of the big operators now, the radio is about tier number seven in their revenue stream. They can raise the price of their cable by a dollar and make millions of dollars with no people aspect. It's the same product going out, cell phones, cable, satellite pay per view, hockey teams, football teams, all these things that they own. And all of a sudden, you take radio down to the 6th or 7th tier with no ambition to do anything but survive. So to get radio back into being something that is part of, dad used to use the term the social fabric of people's lives, it's got to become interesting again, it's got to become active again. And it's going to take some investment. It's going to take some people in these major markets thinking that, boy, we better put something back into something that we've been cutting all these years. We signed off EZ Rock when I left, and they did, with an eight share billing $8 million. And that's over ten years ago. It's a two share now, and you can do the mathematics on that alone. And it has no people or one person and high, high turnover. It's not a place like we had at the Bear, where people wanted to work at that building. They wanted to be part of that success story. So to start with, making people proud of what they do inside those hallways, and what they put out on the air, is huge and it is salvageable. But it's going to take some new thinking and some innovative thinking in the States. For the last number of years they've been breaking off some of these giant companies into regions. And I talked to a good friend in Phoenix a couple of years back from Bonnieville and they're based out of Utah, and he said we were kind of forced into consolidation because everybody else was. We needed 1200 stations, we needed to go coast to coast until a new manager or president came in and said, what do we know about New York? We know nothing about New York. So now we're taking on CBS, NBC, CNN and all these operators? No. So I just noticed the other day that they had purchased a number of them around the state of Utah, and are going back to the old structure of what we had years ago, where maybe stations are 15 or 20, but the synergy and the speed of the way they can operate is way quicker than 150 waiting for something to roll out coast to coast that may not make sense to their market. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:14:58 And so that centralization you mentioned also spills to talent. You touched on it with out of market radio. I know locally- I took a look at the ratings. So Roz and Mocha is a show in Toronto, does very well and I see it advertised on my television. But you bring it into Winnipeg, and I go back to 2019. KISS with another local morning show was 3.7, but then you replace it with Roz and Mocha. The show is a 1.7 right now. How do you live with that? I'm looking at this book, and only the people at Rogers really know this, but I'm like, a 1.7. You think that would induce a change of some sort. Marty Forbes (Guest) 00:15:32 Well, you call it 711 radio now because there's so many of the same things. The fact that if you say the word Virgin into your series, it's going to ask you which one of the 27. You turn on your cable TV, you're watching a football game and a Virgin ad comes out with no names, no city, no frequency, and you're going, I wonder which of those seven, eight, nine Virgins. And we've lost that identity to try to save money and make everything easy to control. But yeah, I remember asking Gary State one time which share what the station had to be to fire him. He said seven. There'd be about ten radio stations in this market where I would have got fired. They think of the people in those places. Matt, how would you like to work for the last place radio station for ten years? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:16:22 I wouldn't. Marty Forbes (Guest) 00:16:23 One of the properties I left with McLean, Hunter CJAX here, we signed it on 40 years ago this September. I walked in and said, you guys aren't going to invest in this, and my name is on this, so it's time for me to go. And that's when I moved off to Vancouver, and good things happenedfrom there on in. But, yeah, some inner pride. Look at the clothing that every single staff member of ours used to have twice, three times a year. The ski outfits and everything. And if you walked out on the street, people saw that bear logo, there was respect for it. Greg Diamond can tell you we reserved the leather bear jackets for the program directors. When you handed that Bear leather jacket off to somebody, it would go in a glass case when they retired, right? So some inner pride in building and doing creative things. And I think that's what you're seeing with Digital now is that these kids, and you and I both know Montana Getty, I'll use her as an example. You go to her website. Holy mackerel. The kid created everything on her own. She's her own product. And one of the things I wanted to bring up with you, I can't remember if I sent you a note on this, but the signature lines from a couple of the students that I worked with through the Gray Cup Festival doesn't say radio, TV or print anymore. It says digital journalist. And I asked them to say, well, what does that mean? Well, it means we can do anything on any platform. So if someone says, I'm needed on radio, yeah, I got that. How about television? Yeah. Can you write a blog? Would you like to do a podcast? So they themselves are describing themselves as digital journalists, and I think that's very cool, because that's where the building comes. These guys are building their own templates, and that's what radio has stopped doing. I haven't heard of an exciting new station, and I'll use BOOM UK is the one I'm listening to the most. BOOM UK, it's a classic hits, but it's really wide. All the announcers came out of Capital FM, BBC or even off the pirate ships, so they're mature, but every time they talk about an act, they'll say, Oh, yeah, this is when Peter Noonan dropped into Pirate Radio back in 19. And there are storytellers. It's really neat, and there's no set playlist. There's this great material and there's so much British content that didn't get great airplay over here, but, you know, as Gerry and the Pacemakers by that sound, and they have storytelling as part of it as well. It's a digital only station, it's based in London. All the announcers live in France, Spain or Scotland and do their shows. There's news at the top of the hour, 90 seconds every day, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, and it's just that need to know news, so I have a hard time turning it off. It's one that relates to me and my demographic and my career. And it kind of signified to me some rule breaking, saying, okay, well, it's not a BOOM FM per se that we would hear in Canada with our outdated Canadian rules and regulations. It's a neat little radio station. I keep watching for more of those and they're just very few of them. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:19:27 I guess radio has a recruitment problem. I know Troy Reeves sort of touched on it at Canadian Music Week last week when he said, well, we'll open up a radio job, we'll get a handful of applications, but we'll have something that says podcast producer, and we'll get flooded with them. And I think one of the reasoning is that you actually physically have to go to a radio station to participate, and you can do the podcast production at home. So I think the work from home thing is also playing into that. But you mentioned it. I don't think a digital journalist is going to look at an ad saying radio station and really put the two together. That goes back to the perception thing. Marty Forbes (Guest) 00:20:01 The entire cycle is broken. If you use hockey as an analogy, a kid plays junior hockey, he knows he's going to the AHL, and he has to work really hard and be with really good people around him to get to the NHL. It's no different. We used to get out of Nate Sate BCIT and go to Moosejaw. Moosejaw was designed by Moffat to- Every single person knew they were there to learn. And if there's an opening in Vancouver, Toronto, Calgary, or Winnipeg, they were going to go there. And somebody emailed me the staff list from I think it was around 1982, 83. And that list of employees at CHAB Moosejaw are the Who's Who of Canadian Radio. Danny Kingsbury, Brad Phillips, I can go on and on and on, almost every one of those. Whereas now you go into- there's Red Deer or Lethbridge and all those are voice track stations, or there's one or two shifts. And those markets used to contain a lot of people that were either at the end of their career or late in their career, and people that have spent a great deal of time at successful operations and decided to go back to Lethbridge to be with their parents or whatever. And I know when I was there in 82, you walk into that CJOC newsroom, and those guys are the top of their field. They had been across Canada at CFRB and CFAX, and some of the best radio stations. So these kids now are getting surrounded by expertise to learn and develop and get those references, those all-important references. But when there's no training ground, when there's no air checks- I still get people asking me to do air checks. You're not getting air checks. Well, I haven't had one for two years, so no one's helping you get ahead. And Troy is a great guy, a good friend and all that, but the whole cycle, where are you training? What are you involved? Our Edmonton broadcasters funds a scholarship and this last couple of months, just before I bailed, we went back in to Nate and said, how about you guys take some anthology stuff from us and help us redo our websites, and finally get some audio and video on the broadcaster site that doesn't have any audio or video. So when somebody passes away now, we have the opportunity to do this amazing production, and it goes up on the Facebook site, the website, and the families get to see this legacy of their parents forever. So it's an involvement in helping them get ahead. They want direction. And then the neatest thing in talking to Montana and Elliott and some of these people, 201, they say, yeah, we know the business was great. We don't care. We want in. Yeah, it's not going to be what it was. We don't care. So their digital is them showing off how damn good they are at any aspect, and they just need a chance. You're 18, 22 years old. You're learning how to grow up first. You're leaving home for the first time. Your Kraft Dinner was seven for a dollar on June 1, 1970. I remember because there's seven days of the week. So they need to grow up as people, just like that kid hockey player needs to as well. So we have to invest in their future. We have to make the business sexy again, we have to make it fun again and stop laying so many damn good people off. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:23:15 In just a second, more with Marty. The last time we spoke, we were waiting for the CRTC to complete a radio review and wondering when it might be in. Well, the review is done and it's still not out. We're just waiting for Bill C11 to redraw the Canadian broadcast landscape. What lies ahead? We speculate. Hopefully no more tertiary Trooper songs on classic hit stations. And we dig a little deeper into a performer's digital rights and their intellectual property. There's more. There's always more at soundoffpodcast.com. Including a transcript of this episode. Sarah Burke (VO) 00:23:55 Transcription for the Sound Off podcast is powered by Poddin. Your podcast is an SEO goldmine. We help you to dig out. Start your free trial now at Poddin.io. Tara Sands (VO) 00:23:55 The Sound Off podcast with Matt Cundill. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:24:08 And then of course, there's the people. And this is a problem, by the way, with BBC and CBC and NPR and a few other places that- they gather a collection of work, and then they realize, oh wait, I can do this from home and I can own the intellectual property and I can do the podcast and I can stream this from my house. So you've got the talent sort of spreading from both ends. Marty Forbes (Guest) 00:24:31 Well, and they know there are no rules, there is no corporate or legal that they have to worry about, and there is no CRTC. There's no one standing over them saying what not to do. And that's the nicest part about this thing is they're creating things. They don't care if it's 30 seconds, 60 seconds, 90 seconds, if it's good, their friends are going to tell them, we're going to tell them and they'll do a small edit here, a small edit there, and they're turning out some amazing product. Whereas the corporate structure is just too restrictive of what you can't do anymore. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:25:01 And what about the broadcast schools? Because these people who are graduating are coming out with the skills that actual corporations want, because they want people doing video and audio and populating websites and social media. And the initial radio job is minimum wage. And these jobs at these corporations are 40, 50 grand a year. Marty Forbes (Guest) 00:25:23 Absolutely. And in a bit reverse for that, Matt, you're not going to make 50 grand year one. And we went to small markets. I went to Lethbridge, $300 a month. I got a $25 raise. I thought I'd died and gone to heaven. So we knew that to get out of those markets we had to be really good. And I learned this from my dad. I mean, the one thing that CHED with a 55 share in 1980 had, was every single person on that radio station was the best that there was. The guy on the all night show wanted to be nine to midnight. The weekend swing guy wanted to be during the week. And they worked their tails off to earn those moves forward. Nothing was handed to you. Today's kids kind of think, okay, well, if any school I need to make 50, 60 grand, it's just not going to happen like that. And I understand it's tough out there, I don't know. But you've got to remember they just spent 8, 10 thousand dollars to get here. I can't imagine my kid, if it came in today and said, dad, I need ten grand to get into radio, I would have a, hmm, we better have a chat about this kind of thing. So you still have to earn your way. And I noticed there are an awful lot more hirings starting to happen, and I think there are some opportunities starting to happen. And I know the Nate guys, they have some of the best teachers ever. Patrick Galenza still goes out after all these years and does remotes for Stingray. He hangs around the radio station, he engages with the staff. It's not this old school like it used to be anymore. They understand they're turning out these really good kids that understand the rules and the needs. But the industry has to help that along and embrace it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:26:57 You were there and of course, well, you've been around forever. You were there in the 2000's when a lot of additional radio licenses were passed out. And I think you sort of summed a few warnings as well that this would happen. But I'd say that we're here, right. We've really over saturated most of these markets. Edmonton, Halifax comes to mind. Winnipeg, Calgary. There's too many radio stations. Is that fair to say? Marty Forbes (Guest) 00:27:22 Yeah, but it's hard to paint one brush with everything because when you look at especially the newer radio stations that came into Edmonton, they came in last place or no listeners. And Sonic is as solid a radio station today as the day they turned it on. Up and Now are either number one or number two in the market. So they have done really well, and there's just some other radio stations that just haven't been able to break through and I just don't think they have the resources to get to that next level. But yeah, there is too much. There's way too much radio. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:27:55 Why did it take so long for other radio companies to copy Now? Because Now is really an amazing story. And when it signed on, I think it was like 2009, 2010, and it came on. It is conversational, it is social, it is interactive, yet nobody copied it anywhere in the country. Marty Forbes (Guest) 00:28:15 Well, it has so many elements built into it that are right back to the very basics. Strong, strong morning shows. I love the fact that there are two people on every single shift, and if you walk into any other operation now and say, here's what it's going to cost, and it's going to cost two salaries and two benefits forever and ever, they would likely shut it down. Whereas they've created a culture in both of those radio stations. They have very low turnover as well, that they love working there, they have a lot of fun there, they have some great opportunities there, and they have a really unique product. And it also broke the rules. It isn't just another format that's dropped in. They Edmonton-ize it or Calgary-ize it, whatever. And they're very strong operations. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:28:59 Did we get a radio review yet? Marty Forbes (Guest) 00:29:03 No. And reading some of the things that are coming out today. First off, that CBC decision yesterday was scary. You used to apply for things and they would negotiate back and forth. It now appears that they're handing it back to you. Oh, no, here's a new element that you have to do. Now, the radio review was canceled because of BC11. And so all of a sudden, the radio review, that hasn't been done since the integration of radio, has now become dependent upon the digital that they have never, ever regulated. And you watch some of the craziness on Facebook, of Facebook denying somebody saying or posting one thing. So now you're going to have people hired that have the skills to listen to every feed on a radio station, decide whether that's appropriate or not? It's absolutely ludicrous. One of the things that I mentioned in Bill King's book when he interviewed me was the term of Senate. I said, if you're going to hold a radio review, why would you hold it with all these people that have made radio into what it is today. And I think the last commissioner even said, Bell is too big. Bell doesn't even listen anymore. We've lost the analysts. There's no Peter Flemings anymore. They used to come to the radio station, assess what you promised, and away you go. So all of a sudden, the whole focus is going to be on this, and yet we still play 52 year old Trooper hits every single day, seven days a week, on X amount of radio stations. God bless Trooper. But when the Senate is, why don't you get instead of doctors, lawyers and accountants on the CRTC, why don't you have a session with all the people who built great radio properties in Canada? It's a long list. Chuck McCoy, Paul Ski, Ross Davies, Gary Slate. We can go on and on and on and just say, how did we get here? The CAB broke up at the point when they were really, really close to having an incentive plan for Canadian music, for new music. It was within days, all of a sudden, it had disappeared. So the intent of trying to help new bands is playing second fiddle, pardon the pun, to playing anthology music. Literally, I started the same week that CanCon did 52 years ago, and it hasn't been updated or assessed for at least 20 years. And the www is where these artists want to go. They're not so concerned about getting airplay on Swift Current. They would like to get worldwide airplay. And there are so many now that are so huge, half the people in the world don't know where The Weeknd comes from or where Drake, and they don't care. They like his music. To sit here and watch them wait and then argue this, because now it's got to go to the Senate, now it's got to get argued back and forth. It'll be four years and three heritage ministers from start to, hopefully, the finish of reviewing the rules of radio. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:32:00 You know that moment when you're in the end zone and it's like, we don't need this anymore? That was 2015. Seven of the top ten artists in Billboard magazine for the year were Canadian. Seven out of ten. And now they make music. And it comes to Canada, it's not even labeled CanCon. Marty Forbes (Guest) 00:32:16 Well, one of the things I was chatting with Brett Kissel, and the kid is an amazing artist, but I said, Okay, let's say you release a new album and you go into either of the country stations here, and at five to nine, before the shift ends, they play the new single. That's great, eh? Yeah. But what if we go down the hallway for the next hour and do an interactive thing via Twitter, Facebook Live, whatever, where I play the entire album acoustically? They interview me, we give away some copies, we invite some people to sit in on this whole thing. So the end result of a CanCon is one airplay, one time for one song, as opposed to worldwide exposure, sexy exposure, interactivity with artists and that, and get some credit for doing something digitally. That's what I don't understand. That's the integration that's not there. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:33:09 Do we know what's inside Bill C-11? Marty Forbes (Guest) 00:33:11 You know what? They keep arguing back and forth. Every second day there's a new evolution to it, and there seems to be more denying than anything else. It's not going to be this. Well, no, it's not going to be individuals. Come on. So a big corporation hires Marty and Matt to do their, We're not employees, and we do something. Come on. It's a field they just don't understand. And like everything else in Canada, it's going to get discussed till the cows come home, and a document will come out and be handed to somebody in Ottawa saying, okay, go hire 200 people and have them spend their whole time doing this. All the time. It's ludicrous. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:33:47 It seems a little crazy because the more information that I do pick up from Bill C11, it looks as though we're trying to promote everything to Canadians and keep it here and suppress other stuff. And I thought Melanie Jolie had it right when she said we really should be in the business of exporting everything, and it doesn't seem we're there. Marty Forbes (Guest) 00:34:08 These guys want worldwide airplay. They want worldwide concerts. They want revenue from the world and not just Canada. That's the crazy part about this invisible border that we have. It doesn't make any sense anymore. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:34:23 So I look at podcasting. Do you think podcasting is going to fall under this? Marty Forbes (Guest) 00:34:29 Concievably, sooner or later. And again, how do you regulate that? How do you tell some of these famous people, you look at the stuff that's coming out of the States now. There's some great podcasts. How do you go to Dennis Miller and say, okay, you can't say that in Canada. Okay. The new Jason Sudeikis one is phenomenal. The guy is one of the biggest stars in the world because of the Ted Lasso is doing this amazing podcast. So you're going to tell him, because it's coming into Canada, that you can't say this, or you can't do that? In the movie scenario. We have a whole industry built on doing movies in Canada to disguise that they're actually in Canada. Suits is shot in my brother's legal office in Toronto, but it's actually in New York. Get some Canadian pride on what we do and make it go worldwide. Then it's a different scenario. But you just can't put this false border up. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:35:18 Does the CRTC have the capacity to do this? Because I think they've even come out and said, we don't have the capacity to do this. Marty Forbes (Guest) 00:35:25 That was the last commissioner's very honest thing that he says, we don't have the people to do this. Who are you going to hire to do this? What kind of a job would this be? For somebody to do, it's not going to work. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:35:36 And it's not as easy, let's say, in a podcast, to start checking production boxes and the content creators are Canadian, but maybe this podcast got sent off to the States for production. And are we going to MAP all this podcast? Marty Forbes (Guest) 00:35:51 And what is freedom of speech? You want to get into that argument? How long is this podcast? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:35:57 If this episode is still here in three years, we'll be happy. We'll know that the bill didn't pass. Marty Forbes (Guest) 00:36:02 Let's look back at it and laugh, I hope. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:36:04 You've worked with Paul Larson. What does he say about purchasing a radio station that makes me think that, why would he do that? Marty Forbes (Guest) 00:36:11 Well, that's a great example. I worked with Paul on their Lethbridge properties for a year. But Paul is that passionate guy. Paul is that next gen guy who- his success story, he's so modest, is phenomenal. And it was all built on small town radio. It was built on all the elements that make radio great. And he's done something already with the people that he's hired and brought into there that people believe him. They'd rather work for Paul Larson in a nice little small operation in a beautiful setting. And I could assure you that his quality control will be immense. He knows how to do great radio at every level, and he's built himself a nice little template. And Steve Huber in Assiniboine, this neat little wee radio station he has done really well with, works his tail off. But again, every one of the elements that made radio great go into making these new stations competitive and great. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:37:07 Just touching back on talent for a second. So if you did have a radio station and you were looking at talent, let's talk a little bit about celebrity and the people, for instance, who do Spittin' Chiclets. Is there a role for these people to be on the radio and this radio want part of their IP? Marty Forbes (Guest) 00:37:25 It's a really good question. And I was chatting with Gene Principe at a function. If you don't know who that is, he's a Sportsnet legend in hockey. And I said, Gene, you're going to have to understand the changes that are going on with this next up and coming demographic. They can see through things, and they know that people who work for Rogers Broadcasting are only allowed to say and do certain things. They can only critique and do certain things. I said, the world's biggest sports podcast has no announcers. They have no professional announcers. They have three ex hockey players who say it all. And I don't know if you caught the Wayne Gretzky interview. It is 1 hour of gold. And being a huge Gretzky fan, this guy has had the three minute clip mentality his entire life. He's got stock answers to every question that has ever been said. And all of a sudden, he's sitting in a room with three other peers telling stories that have never, ever been told before, about- his dad wanted him to not play for Detroit because we would be replacing your hero, Gordie. I'd never heard that before. And all of these elements that these kids today would rather hear from Paul Bissonet, would you call him a B player or C player? And all of a sudden he's one of the biggest stars on television with TNT. How come? Because he's pure entertainment and he's also informative. And when you pair the world's greatest hockey player with a guy like Paul Bissonet, that's a signature of what is changing out there. With podcasting, people are looking for expertise. They can see through if this is a product placement podcast, or it's something that they can learn from. And I think that's the biggest change that's going on out there right now is the podcasts are the best- I call them club. I follow travel guys. If something's happening around the world and I'm going there, I want to know that, right? Motorcycles. I don't ever want to miss anything in that field. And those podcasts are coming from experts in the field. They're not coming from some guy who's gone to broadcast school and can ask a question and walk away. And if you look at some of the treatment that these hockey players have thrown back at these poor guys. Y'know, yes. Yes. No. Yes. So I'm not getting anything out of this interview? No. That demographic are seeing things differently and expecting things differently, but that's all again, being- having program directors and content control people that know and understand psychographics, not demographics. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:40:04 Shout out to Gene Principe, by the way, who refereed a few of my soccer games and did give me a yellow card at one point in Edmonton. Marty Forbes (Guest) 00:40:13 He's a wonderful guy. It was a great chat with him. And chatting with everybody that just went through the Oilers run was really cool. Brendan Griffiths, one of our best friends, just doing this great podcast, The Outsiders, talking to anthology guys and industry guys. Check his podcast out. There's a perfect example of a guy who left broadcasting, but his credibility came through the sports area and he asked those tough questions that you're just not going to hear in traditional media. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:40:40 And that's something that Radiowise did, too, is help build that podcast network. Marty Forbes (Guest) 00:40:44 Yeah. And you know what? He's a pretty special guy. What we did with that very briefly was realize that there's a great deal of expertise out there, but they don't know how to do all the technical aspects of what podcasting is all about. So we call that a one stop podcast. Brendan does everything.You want them to host, send him four or five questions. He'll ask that, then he'll debate or he'll add some content for it. But you can go in as a lawyer or a financial guy and do a corporate podcast that brings up professional standards. And by the end of the day, it is posted around the world on whatever platform. My financial guy does a weekly one, five minutes long, that I adore. It's information I can't get anywhere else, up to date on what's going on. And last week is a great example. It's not a good time, and you better understand what's going on out there. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:41:36 What's your favorite travel podcast? Marty Forbes (Guest) 00:41:39 Rick Steeves. I followed him on PBS forever. His apps are amazing. We're going to Rome in September, and his app is- stand on this corner, hit this app, and you can do a walking tour of Rome with that app fed into your iPod. So this is spectacular. My travel plans. I've done all the world's great cities, but our plans are all in small towns and smaller cities and meet and chat with people. So finding those little hidden gems when you're on a motorcycle in Germany is really cool. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:42:11 Yeah, I think that's one of the legacies of the pandemic, is it's really made people think about where they want to travel. And it sounds like you're going to be taking a little longer and doing things a little differently on your travel. Is that right? Marty Forbes (Guest) 00:42:23 I've got three European tours booked in the next 17, 18 months. The first one is going to be all the way through Italy on a private bus with 30 other people into Austria, which I love Vienna. Vienna is one of my most favorite cities in the world. Salzburg and Innsbruck, where the Olympics were. And then we're going to Munich for Oktoberfest for one day. And Oktoberfest is the biggest gong show you'll ever see. Then we finish up in Budapest, which is a tremendously interesting city, come back for a couple of months, and then Kim and I are doing a river cruise in Portugal. And then after that, back over to Sweden for the World Juniors. And we're going to do a couple of offshoot countries that we didn't do before. So we'll be into Norway, going back to Denmark and Finland, and then into Belgium to do as many war sites, canadian war sites, and then finish up in Amsterdam, so that's the next 18 months catch-up. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:43:18 Now, you brought back a memory that I guess you had to cancel your trip to Portugal. Because I was going to try to hook up with you, because I was going to be in Portugal and Spain around that same time. But, yeah, you did cancel that. Marty Forbes (Guest) 00:43:30 Yeah. The feedback, I'm sure. You'll see, I've never found anybody say anything bad about Portugal. They just love going there. So we'll do three days in Lisbon into Porto, and then seven days on. I call it The Floating Weston. These river cruises I just love. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:43:44 Well, Marty, it was too long between talks on this podcast. We won't go five years next time. Marty Forbes (Guest) 00:43:52 I'm always honored, I'm thrilled at how successful this has become. And maybe we're not crazy. Maybe they can actually listen to some guys who have some pretty decent time in the business and at least listen and assess some of these things. Again, I don't blame all the great people we work with. I'm thrilled for guys like Brian Depot and Greg Diamond that have found small little gem companies that are in smaller towns and really still thriving and enjoying what they're doing. It's still out there, but it's going to take some effort. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:43:52 Thanks, Marty. Marty Forbes (Guest) 00:43:52 'Kay, buddy. Nice chatting with you. Tara Sands (VO) 00:44:23 The Sound Off podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski. Social Media by Courtney Krebsbach. Another great creation from the Soundoff Media Company. There's always more at soundoffpodcast.com.

Arielle Nissenblatt's podcast journey started with a newsletter and a call to Dan Franks and Jared Easley, the co-founders of Podcast Movement. Since then she has grown the Ear Buds Collective Newsletter, joined the team at Squadcast as Community Manager, and is now creating social media content at Sounds Profitable and co-hosting the flagship show with Bryan Barletta. In this episode, you will hear how Arielle discovered that she was a better learner via audio than visual. how radio was her first audio love growing up on 107.1 The Peak in New York's Hudson Valley, how she got involved with a very popular podcast creation tool in Squadcast, and with podcasting's leading business think tank in Sounds Profitable. You will be able to meet Arielle in person at Podcast Movement which is taking place August 23-26 in Dallas. Sign up for Arielle's newsletter The Ear Buds Collective. Start a 7 Day Free Trial with Squadcast. Use the Promo Code SOUNDOFF to get your first month free. Definitely sign up for the Sounds Profitable Newsletter to learn more about ad tech and making money with your audio. But if you are like Arielle and consume content better through the wonderful world of audio, Follow or Subscribe to the Sounds Profitable Podcast here. By the way - if you missed our episode with Bryan Barletta from Sounds Profitable - you can listen to it here. In the days after this podcast episode was released, The Supreme Court overturned Roe vs. Wade. Within hours Arielle had used Twitter to ask who would be interested in using podcast voices to speak out and offer support. Within days she had compiled resources and organized a campaign for podcasters. You can access the Campaign here. Also I have voiced a few versions for networks, podcasts who use Dynamic Audio Insertion or if you are want a separate voice for your show. Help yourself here. The program also received recognition from Mashable. Transcript: Tara Sands (VO) 00:00:01 The Sound Off Podcast. The podcast about broadcast with Matt Cundill starts now. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:11 If you've meandered through podcast circles, you might have seen the name Arielle Nissenblatt. If podcasting were a university, she would have been a part of every club and showed up at every party. I first connected to her newsletter, the Earbuds Collective, and later spoke to her again as the community manager at Squadcast. And then she started the Podcast Taxonomy, which I was a contributor to, and now she's at Sounds Profitable, which the Soundoff Media Company has been a sponsor of in the past. She's co hosting the Sounds Profitable podcast with Brian Barletta, and she joins me from her home in New York City. You're obsessed with podcast. How does one become obsessed with podcasts? Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:00:51 Learning that I am an auditory learner was a big part of that. I, for a while, struggled with just sitting and staring at a board. Growing up and learning that that was not the norm all over the world, I think, helped me to realize that podcasts were an alternative way for me to consume. I don't read a lot. When I am given a book or given an article, I avoid. And if I have to read it, it has to be extremely enticing and written for the ear, basically, in order for me to consume it well. And at first I was mad at myself for that. I was like, Why am I not a reader? Why can't I sit down and read a book? Why can't I sit down and read an article? And now I just realized that's okay, and I can consume the same content through my ears. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:35 Were you ever obsessed with another type of audio medium? Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:01:38 I like some radio stations a lot. I'm obsessed with 107.1 The Peak, WXPK, Briarcliffe Manor, White Plains. That's the whole call station. It's a great indie music station that also does like events and has birthday parties. It's an independent radio station. I love it. I also loved 100.5 The Drive in Binghamton, New York. But I didn't really think about radio critically. I just enjoyed it passively. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:02:04 So I'll imagine that you were raised on radio. My geography may not be perfect with this because my only experience with this area is Interstate 87 between Montreal and New York City. But I'm guessing it's White Plains, Hudson Valley, whereabouts? Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:02:18 That's correct, yeah. White Plains is just north of Manhattan. It's about 30 miles north of Manhattan, maybe 22 miles. I always mix it up. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:02:26 What were your first experiences with radio? Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:02:29 Trying to think back to something more. I remember loving The Peak, this is 107.1, since high school. It's the kind of radio station that every time you turn it on, you're like, wow, they get it right every single time. Like every song, you're like, they pulled that out of nowhere. And yet it is perfect for this moment right now. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:02:46 What did everyone else at high school listen to on the radio? Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:02:46 Z100, 103, or 92.3. Those are like the hit radio stations, which of course I would listen to as well. But The Peak is just perfect. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:02:59 You did some studying in South Africa. What did you study in South Africa? Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:03:03 I went on a trip end of my sophomore year of college with the geography department, which I was studying geography, love geography to this day, to Botswana. So we flew into South Africa, and then we actually drove into Botswana. We just spent one night in Johannesburg, but then Botswana for about three weeks. And we were studying sort of the difference between the urban and rural divide of Botswana. So we hung out in some of the cities, but then we also mostly spent time in villages and smaller towns talking to people. In my area of interest within geography was population and growth and also migration patterns. And so this was sort of on that path, but also sort of just an excuse to go to Botswana. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:03:48 What was your first podcast experience? When did you first discover it and what did you listen to? Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:03:53 I remember, in college, one of my professors saying that he uploaded his geography lectures to iTunes University. And I was like, that's interesting. I'm going to check that out. But I did not think of that as a podcast. I don't even know if technically it's considered a podcast. Do you know about that? Is it on the RSS situation? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:04:12 iTunes University is something that sits on my phone and I've never touched it. Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:04:17 Yeah, I haven't touched it since 2014. But in 2014, I think I listened to a few lectures, and it wasn't made for audio. He didn't translate his visual lectures to audio. He just took the audio and hoped that people would tune in as an extra curricular, basically. So I don't really count that as a podcast. But I remember I moved to Mississippi after college. I worked at a Jewish nonprofit in Jackson, and my roommate listened to a lot of podcasts. And at first it pissed me off because she was the kind of podcast listener where she would put it on full blast in the kitchen while she was like, chopping up her dinner. And I was like, okay, you need to be wearing headphones. This is ridiculous. But then I started listening. I started hearing the stories, and I was like, damn, I need to know more about that. And then I think it was like Radio Lab and 99% Invisible, some of those, like, pretty mainstream shows. But this was 2014, so it was like they've been going on for a while at that point. But still, I don't think podcast had boomed yet because this was before serial. Then serial came out and my whole office was listening to serial, having water cooler moments. And I refused to listen alongside them because I was like some annoying overgrown teenager who was like, I don't want to participate in the things that everybody else is participating in. Why would I ever ingratiate myself with the community? That sounds ridiculous. And then I listened and I was like, Oh, I get it now. And then I completely like, I ate crow, if that's the phrase. And I was like, you guys are right. Serial is amazing. Let's talk about it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:05:42 Is it still considered to be very poor form to crank your podcast so that everybody can hear it? Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:05:49 I think so. Sometimes if my AirPods die and I'm on the subway, I listen out loud, but I put it up to my ear like it's a phone call so that other people can't hear it. I even think it's rude to put music out loud. It's like, I didn't ask for this to be in my airspace. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:06:03 Yeah, FaceTime out loud. Although there is a little karma with it because I saw somebody at the airport was listening to Sex with Emily and it was a good part. And they were standing at airport security and all sorts of odd words came out of the phone. Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:06:16 Oh, interesting. For those purposes, I'm fine with it because it's like, okay, if we can get podcast to more people, lovely. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:06:23 Tell me about starting the Earbuds Collective and why you started it. Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:06:26 I moved from Jackson, Mississippi to Los Angeles in the fall of 2016 and was stuck in traffic all the time. But I was listening to podcasts because I had recently discovered them through Serial and then went on a rampage. I forgot to say- my first job after college in Jackson, we would travel to different synagogues throughout the south, and if they were less than 8 hours of a drive away, we would drive it. So I got really good at driving long distances, and part of that was due to podcasts. I would put on a podcast and be able to just go for 5 hours. I was very good at it. I remember one particular stretch, I think I drove all the way from Hot Springs, Arkansas, back to Jackson. No stops. I had a great car at the time. I think it was the Nissan Versa Note. I remember things like this. It's just a fast car that had really good gas mileage. And I don't remember what podcast I listened to, but I remember I listened all the way through. And that drive was powered by whatever podcast that was. So I got really good at driving, got really good at listening to podcasts in the car. And when I got to LA, I was commuting a lot and listening to podcasts and thinking, I want to constantly have my mind blown by podcasts. How do I make sure that happens? Every single car ride that I take, you know, not just like every once in a while where I'm like, Oh, that was a good episode. I want, that was an amazing episode. That was required listening. Every single episode. So I thought, let me ask my friends what podcasts are blowing their mind, and then they can ask their friends what podcasts are blowing their mind. And then we can start a newsletter where we share our favorite podcast episodes. So that's kind of the origin story. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:07:57 So one of my discoverability techniques is to read the Earbuds Collective. But what are your discoverability techniques? Like, how do you go out and find the things that you want to find? Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:08:08 That's a good question because until recently it was just newsletters. I subscribe to as many podcast recommendation newsletters as I can find. And if you run a podcast recommendation newsletter that I don't know about, I want to know about it. I want to know what's being curated out there. For a while, it was just that I would open up an email, I would open up my phone at the same time, open up the email, read the email, see what got me excited, and then I would go over to my podcast listening app of choice, and then I would plug in that podcast, subscribe to it, or listen to an episode and decide if I wanted to subscribe to it. That was it until about a month and a half ago. So you're catching me at a time where I've recently changed sort of my discoverability technique. I have recently become curious about how Apple's New and Noteworthy functions and how not just Apple, but also Castbox, also Stitcher. Also I've been hanging out on Good Pods. I've been hanging out on Spotify even. That's a very new one. I was not doing that until recently. And Pocket Cast. So those are the main apps that I visit once a day. I check each of them and I try to see what is trending. I try to see what's being chosen for the carousels or the featured segments. And I click on a few things, listen, decide if I want to continue listening. But this all started because I was really curious about how Apple selects their New and Noteworthy. And I know there's a form that you can fill out to try to get your podcast featured on New and Noteworthy. It actually happened to me once with a podcast that I ran. Very interesting. I can go into that if you're curious. But for the most part it's a lot of podcasts that have connections to bigger organizations like NPR, BBC, or CBC or lots of different production houses that are well known, and every once in a while they'll throw in an indie podcast. So I was just curious, are the shows that get selected actually great? So I've been listening to them and kind of commenting on them on Twitter over the past month or so, and that kind of made me think about what other podcast apps are featuring and why they're featuring those. So now I'm very curious about the home pages of podcast listening apps. And if they are not independent. If there are these big network shows, are those big network shows actually very good? A lot of the time they are. So that's sort of how I've been discovering lately. And then of course, I still read podcast recommendation newsletters. I still listen to podcasts about podcasts and that's what it's been like for the past few months. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:10:31 So I guess this is a good time to ask you, because you're diving into New and Noteworthy in Apple. It used to be that you would hit the subscribe button on there and then those that got a lot of subscriptions, the algorithm would sort of weave the podcast into New and Noteworthy. But all that's changed, there's forms to fill out. You have to get the attention of Apple and it becomes a bit of a part of the marketing strategy. And you do have to let them know you're releasing your podcast about three or four weeks in advance before getting it out there. But what else have you discovered about New and Noteworthy and how it's operating inside Apple these days? Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:11:02 Yeah, one of the biggest revelations for me was realizing that subscriptions, ratings, and reviews don't actually do anything for the algorithm anymore. I think that was debunked in 2017. I don't know even if before that it was a thing, but I know that there's literature out there that says- literature. There's blog posts out there that says that that's not a thing anymore. So now I still think it's important to get your ratings and reviews and to ask your audience for feedback. I think that's always helpful, and it's good for when people visit your profile on podcast listening apps, they see that you have ratings and reviews. That means people have been there before you. They like your show, makes me more likely to tune in. So that's still important. But I wouldn't worry too much about it. I definitely wouldn't say on your podcast, like, leave us a rating and review. It really helps us in the algorithm, because it doesn't, because that's pseudoscience or whatever the podcast equivalent of pseudoscience is pseudo marketing. What have I noticed about New and Noteworthy? I have noticed that it's a lot of crime or investigative. And another thing about the Apple homepage that is huge right now that I think was actually discussed on the Sounds Profitable podcast with an episode between Brian Barletta and Lindsey Graham- Not that Lindsey Graham, the good Lindsey Graham, the podcaster- is that they are dedicating a lot of space in the Apple podcast app to subscriptions. So it used to be that there was no money involved at the home page and still technically there is no money involved, but they are encouraging podcasters to start subscription channels. So creating extra content for your listeners so that if they subscribe for 1.99 a month all the way up to 7.99 a month, I don't really know what prices, I don't know if there's a cap, but they are much more likely to feature your channel on their home page in a bunch of different curated sections if you create subscription channels. And that is definitely a tactic that some people are taking. You'll see that a lot of podcasts that previously did not have a Patreon, did not have extra content being put out there, are now putting extra content out there for the purpose of potentially getting featured on Apple, and that is often worth it. There are millions of people scrolling through the Apple podcast app every single day looking for something to listen to. And if your cover art strikes them at the right time, they might click and be a forever listener. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:13:15 It was about April 2021 when iOS 15 came out, and I know there was a bit of a shift with Apple, and if you were going to pay for podcasts, it would be a subscription. And for this podcast, which is free, you would hit the follow button. But I think a year and a half after that, we're really discovering that if you have a podcast that needs a subscription and you're going to pay for it, those things are being featured upfront and getting in front of people's faces. Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:13:39 Oh, yeah. And there's so many factors that go into whether or not somebody will actually pay for your content. But it might even be worth it just for the Apple experiment because it might just get you new free listeners. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:13:51 I can't imagine anybody paying for this podcast, though. Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:13:55 Don't say that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:13:57 It is, it's completely low self esteem. Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:14:00 No, I get it. I feel the same way about my podcast. It's like you really need podcast recommendations that bad that you're going to pay for my podcast? That's why I keep it free. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:14:08 So you spent some time up in Portland, Maine, you went to the Salt Institute and you learned all about Pro Tools. Why did you want to do that? Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:14:15 Such a great question. When I started in the podcast space in 2016-17, I didn't know what I wanted to do in the podcast space, but I knew that I was gravitating towards the business side of things, mostly because I did not have any skills in Pro Tools or in Audacity or in the other editing tools, or even story editing, even just like reading a script and figuring out what sentence would make more of an impact at the beginning of the interview or whatever it is. And I was advising people on podcasts just based on the fact that I was listening to 30 hours of podcasts every week. And I was like, okay, if your podcast is about this, here is an example of a podcast that I listened to that's sort of about that. Here's what makes that podcast really impactful, and here's what I think you should do based on that. And I was able to advise, and give pretty solid advice, based on being a super listener. But then I decided in the pandemic, at the beginning of the pandemic, that I wanted to have some concrete skills when it came to the actual production side of things. So I wanted to be able to speak the language because at the time I was saying that eventually my dream job is to be a creative director somewhere. And if I'm a creative director somewhere, maybe it's a podcast only company or it's a multimedia company. It would be great to have these production skills so that I can talk about certain terms that I did not know about previously. So I decided I wanted to do this program in Portland. So in July of 2020, I drove across the country. I was living in LA at the time, and I went to Portland for just three months. It was a really cool experience. And I now have a cohort of people who learned alongside me. And we learned Pro Tools. We learned how to use a Zoom- portable Zoom recorder, we learned how to use Shotgun mics. We learned how to go up to people on the street and ask them for bits and pieces of information and then have them sign a consent form. It's a whole thing. And then to use that and make an impactful audio story. And so I think that is extremely useful because to this day, I still do a lot of podcast consulting. Now I can say, here is the methodology behind why this is boring, and here's why you need to change it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:16:22 And during that time you spent in Portland, Maine, how many lobster rolls did you have? Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:16:26 I am a vegetarian. Sadly. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:16:28 I also would have accepted "I keep kosher." Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:16:32 Not really. I guess in theory I keep kosher just because I don't eat meat. But yeah. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:16:37 So something you just mentioned, which I had to write down, I wanted to speak the language. And I think that dives into what you've done recently and that's- you're working with Sounds Profitable and Brian Barletta and Evo Terra and Tom Webster, all those people have been on this show before you, by the way. Why did you decide to dive headfirst into Ad Tech? Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:16:56 I have to go back to how I met Brian, which is I spend a lot of time on Twitter. A lot of time on Twitter. And every time somebody pops up on the Twitter sphere and starts talking about podcasts in some way, I want to know who they are and I want to connect with them. So in September of 2020, when I had just moved to Portland, Brian had just launched Sounds Profitable, and I was starting to see his articles pop up, and I subscribed to the newsletter. I was starting to read the newsletter, and I eventually reached out to him, and I was like, I like what you're doing. I especially love the drawings by Jake Crowe, and they're just so iconic. I want to know what you're doing and why you're doing it. So let's set up a phone call. So I think we spoke and I just wanted to learn what he was up to. I learned some of his background. He learned about my background and we stayed in touch and we wanted to work together in some way, but we didn't know exactly how. And then in the summer of 2021, so approximately a year ago, we started working together, I help translate his articles to social media, because social media is huge, and I talk about this a lot. Social media is not so huge when it comes to conversion, getting people to read your articles or to listen to your podcast, but it is huge for social proof and for people to see you as an expert and for people to potentially come across Sounds Profitable. It is worth it to be spending time on social media. You don't have to be on all social media, but you do have to be on some. So that is currently what I do for him. And then I also eventually, a few months later, I started co hosting the podcast Sounds Profitable. Ad Tech applied. And I wanted to do that because Ad Tech is fascinating. I had been steeped in it for so long, since I started listening to podcasts, but I didn't think about it in a critical way. And now that I'm in constant contact with Brian and Evo and Tom, I'm constantly thinking about podcast ad tech. Every podcast I listen to, I'm thinking about how they run their ads. I'm thinking about if their ads are dynamic. I'm thinking about if they made a mistake or if iHeartRadio mistakenly inserted an ad that really shouldn't be there, or they didn't cross off this sort of merchandiser on their list of okay brands, and now it's hurting their brand. So I'm thinking about stuff like that all the time, to the point that my friends even text me, and they're like, I think there was a mistake in this podcast that I listened to. I think this ad shouldn't be here. And I'm like, okay, thank you. I'll check it out. And a few times I've actually sent those suggestions to Brian and he's been able to be in touch with the brand and say, like, something not brand safe ran on your podcast. So that's been pretty cool. I went from zero to, I would say, I know a lot now, I'm not going to say 100, but I definitely know 100% more than I did before. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:19:32 So I understand ad tech, the way you explained it. I just don't think I do a very good job explaining dynamic audio insertion to people who are new to podcasts. So how would you do it? Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:19:45 Yeah, so you can, as a podcaster, decide if you want your ads to be baked in or dynamically inserted. Baked in would be like if I said, hey, Matt, let's take a break and tell the listeners about Rode NT USB mini mics, and then we would do an ad for that, and then it would stay in our feed forever. So that would be baked in. But then if we wanted to, you could say right now, if we were doing Dynamically inserted, off mic, you could say, Arielle, we're going to take a break, so just feel free to say your last sentence and then we're going to fade out. And then in your podcast host, you would mark that this is a space for a dynamically inserted ad. Maybe you do that a few more times throughout the show. And then either you would insert content that you have pre recorded host-read ads, or you could get programmatically inserted ads placed there, and then over time you could remove those, put in new ones, you could put in a feed drop, you could put in a promo swap, and then swap those out. So there's a few different ways that your podcast can use dynamically inserted ads or content. And I like to make that distinction because content wise, we could say we have a new segment here from Mark Astwitz podcast, something like that. The Podcast Accelerator is now doing a segment on our show, and then a few months later, we could decide that we're not doing that partnership with Mark anymore. But now we want to put in Evo Terra's podcast. So that would be dynamically inserted content. It functions as an ad because ultimately you're hoping to send people to Evo or Mark's podcast. But it is content. For all intents and purposes, ads are content. You want your listeners to be engaged and you want them to listen through to the whole ad so that your advertisers are getting the impressions. But ads would be maybe it's a programmatic ad, maybe it's a host read ad, but lots of different ways you can go about it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:21:25 Okay, well, with that said, we're going to take a break and here come the programmatic ads for this podcast. Mary Anne Ivison (VO) 00:21:30 Transcription for the The Sound Off Podcast powered by Poddin. Your podcast is an SEO gold mine. We help you to dig out. Start your free trial now at poddin.io. Tara Sands (VO) 00:21:30 The Sound Off Podcast. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:21:43 Did get a question that came in on the Twitter. Somebody slipped into my DMs and just asked this question. And that's, what's a good number of downloads? Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:21:51 Oh boy. I feel bad because pretty much every question in the podcast space that's asked about marketing, the answer is, it depends. And that feels like a cop out, because it means that you probably need to pay somebody to do an audit for you, or to do a consulting session, so that I can tell you specifically how many downloads are good for your specific podcast or your goals. It depends. It depends. If you want to monetize, some people say 10,000, some people say 50,000 in order to really be profitable, and that's per episode after 30 days. But if you're looking to sell a course, or you're looking to just meet new people in the podcast space, 500 could be enough if they are targeted. And if your show is so niched down and has a great call to action, I hope that helps somewhere in between, maybe. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:22:31 The interesting thing is that the person who asked the question has 40,000 downloads after 30 days. Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:22:37 That's great. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:22:38 I mean, dude, you're in the money. Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:22:40 Yeah, you're in the money. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:22:41 We're recording this on SquadCast, and right around March 2020, when the pandemic hit, there's this influx of people who just want to do podcasting. And at the same time, companies like SquadCast and Riverside start to really up their game in the recording space. So how did you get on board to working as a community manager there and what do you see as being the value of getting involved with SquadCast? Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:23:06 Yeah, I started using SquadCast in March of 2020 because I started a podcast with my friend and it was a Pandemic podcast. And she lived in New York, I lived in LA. And we decided that we wanted to prioritize the quality of our show. So we knew ahead of time that we were not going to use Zoom, which is interesting because when I think back on it, I don't know who got it into my head that Zoom was not the way to go. Because now, of course, that's something that we talk about at Squadcast is, a big education tool for new podcasters is don't use Zoom, use a dedicated remote recording platform. But at the time, I don't know how I knew that. I think just inherently, I knew not to use Zoom. Zoom is great. I should say Zoom is great for communication, not so great for recording podcasts. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:23:47 You're speaking to somebody today who has burned two and a half hours trying to piece together three people who did a podcast on Zoom. And so you used a term in there that I'm going to ask you to explain, and you said dedicated..? Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:23:47 Remote recording software. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:23:47 So what does that mean exactly? Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:24:02 I mean, specifically Zencaster or Riverside or Squad Cast or Welder or Boomcaster, something that is made for podcasters or for content creators and optimizes for audio quality. So cuts out those. Hopefully is a double ender. Hopefully is a progressive uploader, and I can go into those terms, but Hopefully is dedicated to the podcaster and making sure that they get the great audio quality that they need to appeal to their audiences because there are so many other podcasts to listen to. People are going to not listen to your show if it has shitty audio quality. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:24:36 Yeah, you're not going to understand this reference because it's definitely a Gen X reference, but it's like the McDLT back from the 80s. It keeps the hot side hot and the cold side cold. So you're being recorded and it's going straight to SquadCast. I'm being recorded. It's going straight to Squad Cast. And if you and I were to have interruptions or blips because of WiFi or any other interference, it doesn't appear it doesn't come out in the end result. Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:25:00 Yes, you said it perfectly. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:25:02 Oh, good. It could be the first time I've explained any form of ad tech perfectly. Tell me about Sounds Profitable. And now that you're together and Tom Webster is there and it's growing, in what direction is it growing and what's the value of it, for those who haven't heard it yet? Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:25:16 That' a great question. Sounds Profitable started as an Ad tech newsletter. Brian Barletta started it in September of 2020. It is now almost two years later. And it's not just Brian anymore. There's a bunch of people on the team in everyday capacities and then some people who host podcasts once a week. So right now, Sounds Profitable is a newsletter that goes out on Tuesdays, but it is also a podcast that goes out every Sunday that Sounds Profitable ad Tech applied. It is narrated articles that go out also every Tuesday, both in Spanish and in English. Those are narrated episodes of the Tuesday article that goes out. It is a podcast that goes out on Fridays that Sounds Profitable's The Download, which is a podcast about the business of podcasting and that is both in Spanish and in English. So there are a lot of people working behind the scenes that Sounds Profitable, and I think the goal is to be an education source for people getting into the podcast space who are interested in the mechanisms that run it. I would say what it is not is production help. Brian and Co are not saying like, here are the tools to make you a better interviewer. They're not really doing that, but they are saying, Spotify recently said that they are going to be prioritizing video. What does that mean for your podcast and how can you monetize that if that's your goal? Will Apple podcasts shoot you up to the top of the charts if you implement a paid channel? Or will they put you on New and Noteworthy or put you on one of their carousels? So they're having conversations like that with the goal of helping podcasters get paid or understand more about paid mechanisms in the podcast space ever since Tom Webster joined, which is just a few weeks ago, the goal is to also implement research and to find out what people are interested in learning and then going out doing the research and then presenting it in a digestible way that podcasters and other audio professionals can use to better their content and to reach larger audiences. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:27:10 So Brian was a big help. We were sponsors of Sounds Profitable for six months and Brian was instrumental in getting our podcast all set up with all the correct ad tech and onto the right platforms and we love getting together with him and doing stuff. And when he launched, by the way, in September 2020, this was one of the first podcasts he came on. So I got to know him then. But as you mentioned, it's been two years now and it's grown leaps and bounds. Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:27:33 Yeah, definitely. And he's very transparent about his numbers. And so are all of the newsletters that are part of the Pod News Network. You can see how many subscribers he has on his home page. I think it's like almost 5000 at this point. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:27:46 Shout out to James Cridland with PodNews, everybody. Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:27:50 Yeah. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:27:50 So it appears over the last number of years, you've always got something new happening. So how do you prevent yourself from doing too much and flaming out and getting exhausted? Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:27:59 I have been really lucky in that way. I always have new ideas, I always am excited to implement them. I have not yet burnt out, and I think that is because I just love it so much. And that's not to say that people who love their job don't always burn out. I've just been lucky up to this point. I think podcasts really keep me going. Podcast listening really keeps me going because I'm able to expose myself to so many new ideas all the time and just be inspired by people and stories and places that I've never heard of before. And Twitter honestly gives me tons of ideas. TikTok gives me tons of ideas. I recently heard- I was having dinner with my friend the other night. He's really into coffee and he's really into global commodities trading. And he was telling me about shipping and containers. And one of his idols is a coffee guy who has a patreon, and he makes like $50,000 a month from patreon. And he was telling me the model that he uses to make $50,000 a month on patreon, which is that it's a circular thing. People pay him on patreon. He then buys coffee products independently, does reviews on them, but does it independently so that he's not swayed by any of the people who are paying him to do reviews. Then people buy the products with his affiliate links and then he funnels that back in. It's just amazing and I was like, how can I do that with podcasts? So I love hearing stories, I love hearing ideas and then trying to figure out how to implement that into the podcast space. And people always say, Arielle, why podcasts? Why are you so obsessed with podcasts? And I think it's because it feels like this is the beginning of the podcast space. And yes, of course, there have been people that have come before me, and I was in college when I started listening to podcasts, but they've been around since 2004 and there's tons that has happened for me. There's tons that will happen after me, I hope, but I just feel like we're at a place where we can still write the rules. And I love that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:29:50 Well, speaking of that, one of the things you did was the importance of taxonomy. What is that? Because I'd never heard of that until you introduced me to it. I never really thought about it. Why did you want to get more definition around podcasting? Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:30:04 My first official job, getting paid to do something in the podcast space, was that I managed a podcast studio in Los Angeles. And while I was there, I found that a lot of- so it was at a coworking space. I convinced the coworking space that they should hire me to manage a studio. And they were like, great, we don't have a studio. Can you build a studio? And I was like, Okay. I had no idea what I was doing, but I figured it out. And my goal while managing the studio was not just to fill the studio with customers and to have engineers, but it was also to be a liaison between the coworking members and the podcast studio so they could book time with me and figure out if their business should have a podcast. And if it did, what would it look like? So I had a lot of conversations there, and during that time, people were like, okay, do we need a producer or do we need an engineer or do we need a writer? And I was like, Great question, because a producer, in theory can do all of those things, but also maybe shouldn't have to do all of those things. So that's when I started having conversations with somebody at the Coworking Space. More in depth about this. His name is Daniel Rosenberg, and he was like, okay, this should be defined. He didn't work in the podcast space, but he did work in the entertainment space, in TV and film, for staffing TV and film, and for a company called Staff Me Up. I don't think he's there anymore. But he was like, okay, these terms are defined in film and TV. Why aren't they defined in podcasting? Let's define them. It can be as easy as that. And I was like, there's got to be somebody doing this. So we looked it up. Of course there have been some efforts, but we really wanted to figure out a way to standardize it, not just in the US but abroad. And of course that's a big undertaking. But we started and we partnered up with Podchaser and built Podcast Taxonomy.com, which has put out, I believe, the first white paper and then an update to the first white paper on some definitions of terms. So what is a producer? What is an engineer? What is the sound designer? I could go on all day. There are so many different roles that need defining. And the point of that is not just to define the roles so that you can have job distribution, but also to figure out what standard pays would be so that when you're writing a job description, you can say, here's the range. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:32:09 And here's why I loved it, because I found something to contribute to it. And I'm not sure if it made the white paper, or where it's at exactly. But being as somebody who does voice acting, it could be a number of different things inside a podcast. So there's been times I've been asked to read a script and be part of the cast, and there's other times, would you be the imaging person, or the announcer who would come on at the beginning of the show? And I thought it was important to make that description for voice actors. Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:32:36 Absolutely. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:32:37 That's my only contribution. Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:32:39 Well, keep on contributing. It's very open. So not only is the white paper living, breathing, so we're updating it, I believe, yearly, but also we have a Slack channel. And in that Slack Channel, people are meant to say, just heard a podcast where the credits credited this person for this role. Maybe we should add it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:32:56 It's fascinating stuff. Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:32:57 Yeah, and necessary. Really necessary. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:33:00 Have you recovered from COVID? Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:33:02 Yeah, I feel great ever since I've had COVID. I felt terrible during COVID, but I think it's like a renewed sense of life now. So I'm like, let's go out and do things. It's still hard for me to walk upstairs, but I feel like that's just because I'm out of shape. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:33:15 What's your podcast app of choice? You mentioned you go through to check the algorithms earlier, but which one gives you the best listening experience? Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:33:23 Yeah. So for years, I used Castbox, because I met Castbox in 2017 in Anaheim at Podcast Movement. It was my first podcast movement, and I got to go for free because I ran ads in my Earbuds newsletter. I emailed Dan and Jarrett, and I was basically like, hello, new podcaster here. I have a newsletter. Can I run ads in my newsletter in exchange for a ticket? And they were very nice, and they said yes, and I love them very much. While I was there, I didn't know anybody in the podcast space, so I just walked around. I think I was 24. I was walking around with a backpack on, just, like, visiting every single table and making friends and taking swag and taking cards. And basically I was just, like, looking for a job. I treated it like a job fair. I just wanted to work in the podcast space. And one of the tables that I went to was Castbox, and I don't remember exactly who I met, but I remember them being very nice and them telling me about the app, and then telling me about the robust search feature, which was very interesting to me at the time, because they transcribe- at the time. I don't know if they still do- They transcribe every single thing, which meant that you could search for a term and it would show up in that podcast app when you search for it, so you can find a podcast. If you searched mice in New York City, I don't know why that came to my head. What the hell? The weirdest things come to my head when I'm trying to come up with something. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:34:38 How was your subway ride this morning? Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:34:40 There are a lot of rats in New York right now. It's pretty gross. So anyway, you could search for whatever and it would pop up. So I was very interested in CastBox from that point on, and I stayed friends with them and they ran a few ads in my newsletter. And then the following year at Podcast Movement in Philly, I was invited to give feedback on the app to Renee Wang, who is the founder of Castbox. And I got to go into like a special room and share what I thought about Castbox. And then a year later, they had a job open and they hired me to be the marketing and business development manager. And I got to learn the back end of the app and work with people on featuring their show in the app. And that's when the wheels really started turning. That one of the best ways to market your podcast is to be featured in podcast listening apps. Not just Castbox, but others. So I was loyal. I still love Castbox, still use it, but now I split my time between Castbox, PocketCast, and Good Pods, pretty consistently. I used to be of the mindset that if somebody sends me a podcast to listen to, I then type it into my podcast listening app of choice, which was mostly Castbox and listen to it there. But now if somebody sends me a podcast to listen to and they send it to me on Podcasts or on Spotify, I'll listen on that app because it's always good to check in with how the apps are working. So that's sort of my mindset. Now I'm definitely spending a lot more time on Good Pods and the way that I started to do that because it's really hard to move away from what you're sort of programmed to, which for me, five years listening with Castbox made it so that if I wanted to explore Good Pods, I really had to make a conscious effort to do so. But I moved it into the dock on my iPhone where it's always there, so it's much easier to access. And the reason I wanted to do that is because Good Pods really spends a lot of time on social media interacting with podcasters. I wanted to see what it looked like in action, so now I listen on there. I happen to have a lot of followers, so it's fun to listen because then I see other people listening to the shows that I listen to because it's the social app. I'm very excited about this, as you can tell, because I'm talking a mile a minute. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:36:38 But I think something that a lot of people miss when they do a podcast is that they don't really use the description field and they don't use their show notes to the full advantage. And you've got apps like Castbox that are out there looking for the words inside description fields. Guys especially, I don't know why it's guys, but guys especially will just skip over it and think it's not that important. Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:36:59 It's very important. Not just for SEO, not just for search, but also because somebody is not just going to listen to your show just because you have a new episode out. They've got to have a reason. Yes, there are going to be people who love you, love your show. They're subscribed. They can't wait for every single new episode. But new listeners especially need a bit of orientation as to what it is that you're offering. So descriptions are really important. I talked about this on Twitter the other day, but I think one of the ways that people are losing potential listeners is not having alignment between their podcast cover art, their description, and then the first few seconds of the show. All those things need to match up. All those things need to be what I expect when I look at the podcast cover art. Is that the same as the first 30 seconds in tone? In feel? And if so, I'm going to continue listening because it's what I expected. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:37:44 So I saw that tweet, and I would like to say that that is the third best tweet that you have ever put out. You're very good at Twitter, by the way. Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:37:53 Thank you. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:37:54 That is the third best tweet you've ever put out. I just can't recall what two and one are. Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:37:58 I can help. I had one tweet go megaviral. Is that one of the ones you're referring to? I had a tweet that said, a podcast where parents try to explain what their adult children do for a living, and it was so much fun to go viral. It has like 100,000 likes and tens of thousands of comments and retweets. It was so much fun. That was approximately a year ago. And I keep thinking, how am I going to top that and when am I going to top that? Because I've tried. It's not for lack of trying that I haven't gone viral again. And I try to think about what about that tweet? Like, yeah, it's funny. The idea is funny. And a lot of people have approached me to help make that podcast ever since. And I still hope to make it one day, but I want to do it again. I want to go viral again. And I keep trying to figure out how to formulate a statement, because it's not quite a full sentence, right? A podcast where pare- It's just an idea. So, yeah. Any ideas? Please feel free to hit me up. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:38:47 I think your tweets are fantastic and everybody should give you a following. What we're going to do is, we're going to take your top three tweets and we're going to put them inside the show notes of this episode just so that everybody can dig in and see them. Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:38:57 Oh, lovely. I wonder what the other one is. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:38:59 I'll find it. You did mention transcription about five minutes ago. I heard the word come in my head. We talked about descriptions, we talked about show notes, and I tried doing an episode and I'm still wrestling with it, what is the value of transcription? But here you are, a very bright podcast mind who can explain why I need transcription for an episode. Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:39:20 Yeah, it's not just about accessibility, but it's definitely a lot about accessibility. There are some times where I'm listening to a podcast on the subway and I don't want to turn the volume up louder because it's already too loud and I don't want to damage my ears. But I do wish that I could have words across the screen so that I could follow in those times. There are people who are deaf or hard of hearing who need transcriptions in order to enjoy the podcast that they love, in order to fully immerse themselves in that show. It's also helpful when it comes to dialects and accents that you might not be completely familiar with, but it's also great for SEO, and it can be really helpful for Google scraping your website and seeing that you talk about this phrase or this word over and over again, and then your site will rank for that. For me, SEO is important, blah, blah, blah. But I really think accessibility is the number one reason that you should be doing it. And we can no longer be leaving that to the back burner and saying it's just a few people who are going to listen because- or who are going to need the transcript. It should be a proactive thing that we do, in order to make sure that- nobody should have to ask for a transcript. Nobody should have to say, hey, by the way, I want to listen to this, but I'm deaf or hard of hearing, or for whatever other reason, I shouldn't have to ask for it. It should just be there. And the hope is that eventually podcast hosting sites or other types of services will integrate with transcription services so that it can be free or low cost, so that it's really not a heavy lift. But for now, yes, you might have to pay or spend some time in a free service editing to make sure that it actually makes sense. Because another aspect of this is you can't just upload your file and then download the automatically generated transcript because often there's going to be issues. Some names won't be spelled the right way. Some phrases will get transcribed in a weird kind of garbled English or whatever language it is that you are speaking in. So you do need to spend some time and that is a luxury, but it is important. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:41:11 We've hired no fewer than four people to go through the transcription of this episode and fix all the niss and blah, this and that. And Mad Kendall mentions. Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:41:23 Ugh, man. You don't even know, growing up with this last name. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:41:25 What is the one thing that keeps you up at night or that you're thinking about the most that consumes your time, about the future of either ad tech or podcasting? What's one thing that you're thinking about and wondering, I wonder where this goes? Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:41:37 I want more podcast listeners. I want more people to listen to podcasts, and more people to listen to podcasts regularly, to see it as an alternative to TV/film, because there are such great podcasts out there that I know people would love if they knew how to find them, or if they knew what to do while they were listening. I think the biggest issue is that a lot of people can't listen to podcasts while they're sitting. I can't listen to podcasts while I'm sitting. I have to be doing something. Walking, washing the dishes, cleaning. Sometimes I clean extra so that I can listen to podcasts because it is the best. I think cleaning is the best thing to do while you're listening to podcasts because walking, you get- there's stimulants that might distract you. Driving, same thing. But for some reason cleaning is perfect for me. Anyway. I want more people to listen to podcasts so that we can continue to make podcasts that are niche down to what they love. That's great for advertisers, that's great for you as a listener. Yeah, that's what keeps me up at night. How do we find the people to be super listeners like me? I listen to 30 hours a week, sometimes 40. How do we find more people who love those podcasts, who love podcasts that much, and maybe less is fine too. If you listen to 5 hours a week, I'm still your friend. But I want to find those people, and I want those people to find more people. And it's not just because I love the podcast space and I want it to grow, but it's also because I think podcast listening has made me a smarter person. Because like I said, I'm not a big reader. So I wasn't reading beforehand or I was reading every once in a while, but I was frustrated because I wasn't absorbing it in the way that I thought I was meant to absorb articles or books. And now that I'm exposed to a medium that can seep into my veins by way of podcasts, I really absorb information and I take in stories, I meet people, I hear languages that I wasn't exposed to beforehand. In that way, it's made me a smarter person. It's also made me more empathetic by listening to podcasts from other cultures, from other people that I've never met before. But then it also just teaches me to shut up sometimes and listen, right? Like 30 hours a week I spend just listening to podcasts. And then, of course, I also spend some time listening to people in real life. So I'm listening a lot more than I was before 2014, and I think that that is inherently a good thing. So I want more people to listen to podcasts. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:43:48 Arielle, thanks so much for being on the podcast. I appreciate it. Arielle Nissenblatt (Guest) 00:43:51 Thank you for having me. This was a lot of fun. Tara Sands (VO) 00:43:51 The Sound Off Podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski. Social media by Courtney Krebsbach. Another great creation from the Soundoff Media Company. There's always more at soundoffpodcast.com.

This is year three of the pandemic. Three years of being stuck in our houses. When was the last time you went for a walk with your friends? One of the best things that came out of the pandemic was reconnecting with the simple act of going for a walk. There's something magical and simple about wandering around with someone you love to talk to, tasting the fresh air, being immersed in nature, and checking out cool hidden spots you've never been to before. This week's guest, Buzz Knight, is someone who's always appreciated the magic of a good walk. He appreciates it so much, in fact, that he's made a podcast centered around it. It's called Takin' A Walk, and it's themed around Buzz traveling to his guests' cities and simply going for a walk with them- while having some incredibly insightful conversations. You can listen to the most recent episode below: Buzz is a radio veteran himself, having spent most of his career as a Radio Executive. As such, the guests are often connections he's made through his career, but they also include people like authors, athletes, musicians, and business owners. The show's website says the podcast aims to "embrace the mindfulness associated with walking along with the beauty of storytelling and conversation," and I'd say it's right on target. In this episode, we reconnect with Buzz about what he decided to start Takin' A Walk, and he shares some anecdotes about the unique challenges presented by recording a podcast while walking around the streets of NYC, Boston, Chicago or wherever he finds himself. We backtrack to Buzz's time in radio, and his company, Buzz Knight Media, which works with other media companies to develop their business strategy. To get in touch with Buzz, you can follow him on Twitter or LinkedIn, or visit the Contact section of his website. Transcript: Tara Sands (VO) 00:00:01 The Sound off podcast. The podcast about broadcast with Matt Cundill... Starts now. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:11 You may recognize the name Buzz Knight, as he appeared back on the show in February of 2019. And then I realized that February 2019 was a lifetime ago. The episode number was 136, and we still had a year left before the Pandemic unleashed the biggest disruption of them all. Buzz is back with a new podcast called Takin' a Walk, where he interviews interesting people at cool locations anywhere on the planet. If there's one thing the Pandemic brought us, it was the opportunity to take a walk. With the gym closed, fitness routines disrupted, and with some extra time on our hands, taking a walk seemed like the natural thing to do. And if there's added conversation on your walk, that's a bonus, too. And what if that conversation can be bottled and sent around the world in the form of a podcast? Well, Buzz Knight would have been the person to do it. A longtime radio programmer and performer who is genuinely curious and interested in people and stories, Buzz has friendships and contacts with people you likely have heard of before, or at least should get to know. He's worked for CBS Radio, Beasley Broadcasting, and currently works with radio brands across America. And he joins me from his home office in Boston. Buzz Knight (Guest) 00:01:25 I think the last time I saw you was it in Minneapolis, possibly. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:29 It's exactly where it was. It was 2019 and the last time we had a conclave. Yeah, that was it. I'm going to be going to Canadian Music Week next week. That'll be my first conference back, and then the next one will be Podcast Movement in August in Dallas. Buzz Knight (Guest) 00:01:52 Okay. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:53 Yeah. Buzz Knight (Guest) 00:01:55 I went last August to Morning Show Boot Camp in Chicago, and I don't think I'm going to go this year, although you never know. But beyond that, I went to the NAB in April. In Vegas. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:02:10 Oh, I have that question down. Buzz Knight (Guest) 00:02:13 Okay. Sorry. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:02:14 It's all right. Buzz Knight (Guest) 00:02:15 I'll shut up here. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:02:16 It's all good. Why did you start Takin' A Walk? Buzz Knight (Guest) 00:02:21 I realized that, at the heart, I'd always been involved with content creation, whether it was on my own when I used to be on the air, but certainly with teams that I managed, it was about creating things. So at the heart, as I was contemplating how to have some fun, I just decided that going back to some of those content routes was important. I've always enjoyed interviewing people and had done that throughout my career. So this sort of feeds that love as well. I had just read this book about- Called Decoding Greatness. Which was about reverse engineering ideas. And I was literally at the Morning Show Boot Camp in Chicago last August, and I had read the book, and I was considering where to sort of take the next part of my journey. So after reading the book on a long walk in Chicago, literally walked that day about 15 miles. I started thinking about Comedians in Cars with Coffee and thinking that that show was really not just about cars and coffee. It was really about this amazing host in Jerry Seinfeld, and his love of talking to people and interviewing them and engaging in that conversation. So I decided, let me give this a whirl. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:03:48 Tell me about the technical set up, because you could do this from- the way we're doing it now, from the comfort of your home, which I really enjoy, but I just love the walking aspect of it. So tell me about the technical set up and how you got started, and how many takes did you have to do to get the first episode out? Buzz Knight (Guest) 00:04:05 So the Zoom H4 is the key to it. But also I work a backup mic through the iPhone with some lavalier mics as well. But there's been a lot of learning and there's been some trial and error certainly. Look, out of it, I really at the core want to also touch on how walking- obviously the health benefits the mindfulness of walking as well, thinking about my backyard where Walden Pond is, and Thoreau, and his journey of mindfulness, also thinking about the late Vietnamese Monk Thich Nhat Hanh, and certainly his- how to walk and mindfulness while walking. So I really wanted to merge what I thought, especially coming out of or being in a pandemic and the fact that people were exploring the outdoors. That's where certainly my desire to actually go out and take a walk. The learnings continue in terms of the dynamics of sounds. People seem to enjoy the sounds and the authenticity of the sounds, but certainly I have to manage that. There's been a couple of instances, really, in post production. I've got a guy named Bob Malatesta who used to work for me some years ago with Greater Media and previously with Infinity and CBS. So Bob is really able in post production to really run some of these through and be a savior for me on some of those episodes that maybe I didn't correctly compensate for the outdoor conditions. But what I love about it is my continued learning, because at this phase of our lives, I think learning new things is so important. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:05:58 Was walking part of your daily life in the before times, pre-pandemic, or did walking become part of your routine during the pandemic like it did for so many people who couldn't go to the gym or who were disrupted with their exercise routines? Was walking something that you did on a regular basis in the before times? Buzz Knight (Guest) 00:06:19 It was, yeah. It accelerated certainly during this time, especially with two dogs who need morning and afternoon walks as well. But it had always been part of my life. And going to big cities, the Chicago example, New York, Boston, San Francisco, I could kind of go on and on. Philadelphia. I just always have enjoyed walking, people watching, taking in some of these great cities, but also living in the suburbs of Boston. Very grateful for where that is. There's so many places to explore in the country that I live. I live in a town called Carlisle, which is next to Concord, Mass. And I had always seen these places and gone to many of these places. But during these last few years, I really either rediscovered some of them or found new places that I hadn't really had the time to see because I was working five days a week and traveling a lot. So my time to see these places was usually on the weekend. So I think a lot of people discovered new places and rediscovered places that maybe they hadn't visited. Yeah. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:07:35 There's a real theater of the mind when I listen to the episode. So I think back to the one you did with Greg Hill. And first of all, it's great to get to know these people as you're taking a walk. But the way you'll stop and then look at a landmark, the way you would never do if you were working nine to five and, well, longer hours than that, of course, in radio, but the way you would never do if you were busy and inside a radio station. So that leads me to this question. Do you plan your route the same way you're going to plan your questions for your interview? Buzz Knight (Guest) 00:08:04 I kind of generally do, just for more site conditions, certainly, but also if there are some special places that we need to contemplate. I think as I try to evolve this, I like to have the person that I'm walking with have some connection, hopefully, to the place. Sometimes I'm doing it out of their convenience, certainly, but I'm also trying to do it where it resonates with them as well. And resonates with me ultimately, is a good thing when that happens. I started the first two episodes at Walden Pond, actually, because of where the Thoreau piece and the mindfulness piece existed. But I like the notion of finding places that someone can really enjoy themselves and maybe have a story to tell as well. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:08:53 Do you consult with your guests on the route? Buzz Knight (Guest) 00:08:56 I ask them before if they have a particular place in mind, and sometimes they do, and sometimes they don't. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:09:02 Have you ever had to postpone an episode because of weather? Buzz Knight (Guest) 00:09:06 Yeah, we've had a push through a few Boston winter walks where it was icy. There's a gentleman by the name of Topper Carew that I walked with who's a screenwriter and director. Really interesting gentleman. So we postponed that one two or three times, because he wanted to walk in the south end of Boston. And the ice on a winter day can be treacherous there. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:09:32 I have a request, by the way, with each episode that you put out, could you please put the number of steps you took for each episode? Buzz Knight (Guest) 00:09:39 I like that. I will. Yeah. That's a good idea. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:09:43 We can add it all up. And by the way, that goes for your guests, too, right? If they're carrying their phone, because isn't it really all about the steps? Buzz Knight (Guest) 00:09:51 It is about the steps, although sometimes I will say we're sauntering rather than walking, just depending on the individual, which is fine as well. A good saunter is a good thing. There's a gentleman- I go to this coffee shop in Concord named Sally Anne's, and the owner's name is Bill. And he goes, "I thought it was really funny how you and Greg Hill were walking. And I heard you huffing and puffing." And I said, Bill, because we're walking! Matt Cundill (Host) 00:10:18 I heard that part, too. Congratulations on the excellent microphones. But then I think maybe they're walking up a hill. Buzz Knight (Guest) 00:10:26 It depends. I mean, listen, with Jorma Kaukonen, the founding member of the Jefferson Airplane and Hot Tuna, we took a walk on his Ranch, which is called the Fur Piece Ranch out in Pomeroy, Ohio. And Jorma is, I think, 82. But he's in a hearty condition and there were some trees and limbs down from a storm. So we took a hearty walk. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:10:53 Now, I've mentioned two of the guests that are in radio because it's what interests me. But it took me about 10 seconds to send along the episode you did with Billy Payne to a big Little Feet fan that I know. Who are the guests who come on the show and how do you choose them? Buzz Knight (Guest) 00:11:09 So the guests range from musicians such as Billy Payne from Little Feet, Jorma Kaukonen, a singer songwriter, Peter Himmelman to some comedians. Bethany Van Delt from Boston, Steve Sweeney from Boston, to the historian and Pulitzer Prize winner Doris Kearns Goodwin, to Mark Chernoff, who I used to work for at WNEW FM. Listen, it's out of my love for this connection with people, either new friends that I'm connecting with or old friends. And that's the beauty of doing a project such as this. So I can kind of take that on this personal part of the journey. So I think I probably try to feed that first. Grace Gostead, who is another musician who's a singer/songwriter who's 20 years old from LA. I had learned of Grace's story and was just fascinated by her, not just her musical journey, but the fact that she's this wise 20 year old trying to be a voice for those who have challenges with mental illness and really be a safe haven for them. So I was so intrigued by her story. So I guess the choice comes out of where my intrigue for a story is maybe where there's a relationship or a passion that I have that excites me. It's really kind of a wide array. I'm able to hear from some people just through some connections. And now it's getting pitched. So next week, I'll be walking with a woman named Lydia Shire, who is a pretty prominent restauranteur in Boston. So what's cool about it is I would never really have access to a lot of these people. Maybe I would with some of the connections, but in some cases I would not have access to these people to this degree. The episode I released next week is Alan Kovac, who is a manager of bands over the years, Motley Crue, Blondie among them, but also owns Better Noise Music, which is a label as well, and he has a video division. I met Alan years ago, but I would probably not have access to somebody like Alan. Greg O'Brien, who wrote a book called On Pluto. He's an investigative reporter throughout his life, but his book is really about his personal journey with Alzheimer's and how as an investigative reporter, he writes about it in On Pluto. Once again, I wouldn't have access to this gentleman who- it's a terribly sad story, but it's so inspirational, it's so uplifting. So that's really what I'm so appreciative of, that I'm able to make these connections. Some of them I would never have had a shot at. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:14:29 In just a second, more with Buzz, including his takeaways from the NAB show, how he stays focused while walking and podcasting, and his thoughts on the future of talent in radio. There's more. There's always more, including a transcript of this episode and links to blogs and Buzz's podcast, at soundoffpodcast.com. Mary Anne Ivison (VO) 00:14:52 Transcription for the Sound Off Podcast is powered by Poddin. Your podcast is an SEO goldmine. We help you to dig out. Start your free trial now at Poddin.io. Tara Sands (VO) 00:14:52 The Sound Off podcast. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:15:04 As I listened to the episode with Mark Chernoff, and it was so nice, I listened twice, by the way. I'm beginning to think that you would not get all those stories if you are doing this by Zoom or just recording this face to face like we are right now. There's something about the walk between the two of you as you turn the corner that I think possibly jars memories, or brings up other feelings or passions in the stories. It really feels like a very authentic conversation. I just don't think that people would be telling the same stories through a microphone via Zoom. Buzz Knight (Guest) 00:15:39 I think some of them they would, but I think you're exactly right, Matt. The different stories come out. This is meant for that purpose, to actually get these stories out in maybe a different manner or a more revealing manner. Just like you're hanging out at the local bar, just talking to some friends and just BS'ing. Being able to really have that ease of it, and have people let their guard down. I'm not out to change the world with them. I want them to have a comfortable conversation and reveal of themselves something, and I like to try to think of it from the standpoint of being their fans. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:16:20 One of the things that did come up in the conversation with Mark, and it was really towards the back end, but sort of lamenting about our talent pool in radio and how we're using it. What do you think personally about radio's talent pool and the opportunities over the next few years to develop it? Buzz Knight (Guest) 00:16:38 The talent pool aspect of radio deeply concerns me. There's not a strategy that's consistent for generating talent. There's not anything really strategy-wise for millennial growth. So I'm deeply concerned. I see more scenarios where the easy fix on talent is, well, let's let that large salary get away, and let's just advance people in the show who are already there and let them hold down the fort. Sometimes that's great, because it gives people a chance, in those cases, to be moved up the ladder. But generally those decisions are only made out of economics. So the talent piece concerns me. And also, as I think about it, just before we came on, I was thinking about this. I think broadcast radio companies and their existing talent have generally not done that much in the content creation, podcast, original space, because their talent that exists doesn't have the mental bandwidth and time to do different things because they're busy with 17 other tasks. So the talent pool piece concerns me. And as I was thinking about it, I was thinking, boy, my God, I'm surprised that podcasting has not been more of a generation of new talent that has existed for traditional radio companies. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:18:17 Well, I think we both know doing podcasts that it's hard. It takes a lot of time to do it, and it's very technical. I sometimes think that when you're walking with somebody and recording your show, how much mental space is actually being burned, wondering about how this is being recorded and is this recording properly? Buzz Knight (Guest) 00:18:38 A lot. A lot. Deeply- I get deeply nervous over that. So listen, I mentioned Bob Malitesta, but when you're essentially the one man show, you worry about everything. You do. But I also feel like, I know you can appreciate this, that when you complete something like a walk and a segment, the lead up, where I'm going to find them, the anticipation, the anxiety, but the positive anxiety, it's this nervous energy that as someone who started on the air, I greatly appreciate and I'm spent many times after these for that reason, but in a really good way. It's one of those feelings I'm really grateful to have. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:19:31 How did you spend the time between March 2020 and the launch of Takin' A Walk in November 2021? There's about 18 months in there. How did you spend that? Buzz Knight (Guest) 00:19:43 I was working with some guys on a startup, and it was a musician storytelling platform. Great experience, a lot of learning, a lot of new connections and reconnections with people. We had great ideas. We were horrible at the fundraising aspect of things. So we eventually ran out of time because we didn't have people and money and we just couldn't get the thing up. So I like to think about those things like almost a real-world MBA course. So that was really what I was consumed with. And I think we were close at many moments, but we just ran out of gas. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:20:26 What did you see recently at the NAB? Buzz Knight (Guest) 00:20:29 I saw this collaboration that existed between this gentleman named Brian Biniak, who has a company called Connected Travel. He's done a lot of work around OEMs, so his company and a company called Radio Line, a streaming service out of France, and this company called Simple Bet, they have done a pilot with a major OEM around in-game, real-time betting that can be done safely while in a car. So that was very intriguing. That was different. That's what I respected about it. It was interesting because it was different collaborators, but it was also interesting because the applications around that technology have kind of existed before, but this was merging those with different partners. And it's not just an application that can be for the betting application. That application can be interesting for, if you think about public radio fundraising as well. So I thought that was one of the things that I thought was pretty cool at the NAB. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:21:44 As we emerge from the Pandemic, what do you see that we lost in radio, that's now starting to come back, that's making you a little bit excited? Buzz Knight (Guest) 00:21:52 Well, I just think the live event piece is coming back, and that's so great to see and so needed for these broadcast companies, whether they be the larger events or just in general, the face to faceness that they can have in their marketplace, how they could engage with their audiences. So I would say probably that's the most significant thing because that's just been so hard for companies to, I think, really virtualize things and do that. And then additionally, I think the fact that these companies are then- some of them are still providing hybrid activities and solutions. But the fact that they can get their teams together and really collaborate, I think when you come down to that, that's necessary as well. I think there needs to be new forms of how to do that, and different takes the company should really be free to explore. But this is about a heart and soul necessity that radio needs, which has been difficult for radio during these last few years. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:23:03 Is there something that is never coming back, that radio needs to let go of, from the last decade into this one because of the Pandemic? Buzz Knight (Guest) 00:23:12 I'm not sure. I mean, radio has to stop being so romantic about its past. So I think in the general theme of things, this romance for what the tower means and sort of radio's historical perspective in that regard, I think radio does need to let go of that. I'm not sure what specifically, though, beyond that aspect of things. Look, I think radio miscalculated some stuff during this period where, as you well know, a lot of companies under the guise of COVID took live bodies out and then started trying to nationalize bodies over multiple markets. The way that was done, certainly a few day parts in particular got really nicked. Midday is one, nights certainly another. That had been happening before, but nights certainly as well. And that's a big mistake, because no matter which generation we're talking about that radio listeners are, or that radio aspires to get, engagement is so critical right? It's a differentiator when you think about radio opposite other services, other streaming services and whatnot, and how do you engage with people if you don't have bodies? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:24:47 How are you going to be spending the summer? Buzz Knight (Guest) 00:24:48 Got a lot of walks coming up, some trips that will be part of that. There'll be some New York going on, I just came back from Chicago, so there'll be some of that going on for sure. And some of it will be spur of the moment that I'll be able to react to. Just came back from Block Island, Rhode Island, took a week off there. We'll probably try to take some other trips as well. Going to try to enjoy the nice weather and try to build upon the Takin' A Walk series. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:25:24 Well, I hope I run into you on a walk this summer. Buzz Knight (Guest) 00:25:27 Oh, that would be pure joy, Matt. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:25:29 Buzz, thanks so much for being on the podcast again a second time, and congratulations on this. I really enjoy the show. Buzz Knight (Guest) 00:25:35 Matt, I appreciate the support, and thank you for having me on very much. Tara Sands (VO) 00:25:39 The Sound Off Podcast written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski. Social media by Courtney Krebsbach. Another great creation from the Soundoff Media Company. There's always more at soundoffpodcast.com.

There I was flipping through Facebook and seeing Steve Reynolds comment about hearing something he felt was out of place on the radio in the era of COVID-19. This is not to be confused with the non-COVID comments about Sirius Yacht Rock playing a lot of crappy B-Sides on their channel. (He's right. No one wants to hear B-Grade Little River Band song. Ever. With so many radio people and radio shows in flux Steve is good person to bring on right now to talk about our new surroundings. We also got into some great discussions on the role of social media and how important it is "go live" more than ever. Also this might be a time to adjust your personal brand rather than doubling down on the emotions that may not matter to many people right now. And what happens when the two or three person morning show starts to struggle with the "at home" dynamics that have been put upon them? FREE! Inside this podcast Steve offers up a free promo idea for your radio station. It's like a prize in the Cracker Jacks box! There has been a lot made of people now taking the show home. So set ups are impeccable, some questionable, and others just downright awful. Here's the thing: It's a lot like sex. It takes time to get it right. Here are some resources for getting your house set up properly for live broadcast, podcast and streaming: Steve is using the Blue Yeti. I recommend two versatile microphones that podcasters love. They are great because they are affordable, convert to both USB and XLR formats, and cope with background noise nicely. The ATR 2100 and the Samson Q2U. For lighting - and you will likely need some lighting. I made this purchase on Amazon last year. Corey Dylan who has been a guest on this podcast, has a list of recommendations that she has accumulated over the years. Bonus material: Steve made mention of a great bit from Hawkeye & Katelyn at KSCS in Dallas featuring Sam Hunt and his wife buying a bidet. Also Steve said he was feeling the "weight" from staying home. Here's a podcast episode you might want to check out if you're feeling heavy. Lianne Laing and Eliza Kingsford talk about managing your Quarint-eating.(Full disclosure: This podcast is a client of the company's) Finally, if you have any drink recipes for Steve, please e-mail him. He is not a cocktail kinda guy generally, but he has the time to see what all the fuss is about. Personally, I think a caesar is a good drink before a carnivorous meal. All the ingredients on the page are fair game - My favourite magical ingredient is HP Sauce. Transcription: Amanda Logan (VO) 00:00:01 This is the podcast or broadcast podcast with Matt Cundill. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:08 There I was scrolling Facebook. Hey, check this out. It's a post from talent coach Steve Reynolds. He's commenting on something he didn't quite like hearing on the radio. Now, this isn't your June of 2019 comment when he called out Sirius XM and their yacht Rock channel for playing too many boring B tracks. This is a little different. He was just commenting on how somebody was handling their broadcast in their new surroundings. Now, that person is not a client of Steve's, but probably should be. And so I thought there's no better time than the present to get on Skype and connect again with talent coach Steve Reynolds from the Reynolds Radio Group. Steve is going to help us all get settled into our new home Studios. And as it turns out, Steve has done some technical upgrading to his own home studio. Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:01:00 I think since the last time I saw you, I actually went out and got proper equipment. I was embarrassed after I spoke with you last, I thought I had the proper equipment, but I realized after we got done that it wasn't proper equipment. So I went out and bought proper equipment. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:16 And you know what? It's true. Let's flash back to episode 127 when Steve was on the show and hear what he sounded like then. Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:01:24 This is the beauty of what we do in radio. People do not have the same relationship with local TV anchors that they have with us. Radio, I always remind people, it's so intimate. Probably it's our greatest strength. It's the intimacy of the medium and our ability to show our heart. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:42 So what kind of microphone are you speaking into? Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:01:45 I'm going to tell you, being the pro that you are, you'll probably groan and say, oh, my God, you're one of the masses. I got this blue Yeti. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:55 Yeah. Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:01:57 So I would imagine that that's sort of like the regular person's microphone. And, you know, I've done a few. And, you know, here we are, $99 later. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:02:09 That's about the price you should be paying for a microphone for podcast or at home. Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:02:15 I don't have it on a boom. Maybe that's I'm going to buy lighting because now people want to do all of these Skypes and zooms with me. And I look at myself and I'm like, oh, my God. I mean, on a good day, I look awful. And the only way to fix it is surgery or lighting. So I'll go the least expensive route. First, I'll buy some lights digital virtually. So I'll have to make the investment of the lights. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:02:38 And by the way, no need to write all that down. I have provided a small guide to some of the tools you might want for your home studio. They're in the show notes of this episode and on the episode page@soundoffpodcast.com. At the very least, getting a new microphone is going to ensure that you sound the very best on a Zoom call. But first, a dumb story. My family, you zoomed at the Passover and Easter tables, and one of the microphones caught somebody nibbling some matzo while his brother was doing the reading. He learned where the mute button was in time for Easter. Anyhow, enough of that. This is one of the experiences that a lot of radio people are going through in the first week. You go home, the microphone is not right. Maybe they don't have the right lighting. There's not enough acoustical treatment. So what is it like to start working from home and what do we need to pay attention to? Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:03:32 First, there's a lot of distractions during a 60 Minutes call with the show. On average, I'll go to the refrigerator 142 times. I've got a great wireless headset. I'm outfitted here to be able to do this. But most people have their set up on their kitchen table with their bills to the right and last night's plates to the left. And the thing that I learned years ago is you have to have a routine. I talked to a morning guy today who I asked him what time you normally wake up. 333. 41st break on the show. First light breaks at 530. So what time do you get up today? He said, 415. Okay, we're okay. I said, what were you dressed in? And he said, sweatpants and a T shirt. No, that's a work at home. Don't. You should not do that. It's quite tempting. I mean, I could be sitting here in my bathroom talking to you right now, but you may not know it. I would feel like I'm not at work. So even in the short run, you have to have a routine, because think about your day. If you go to an office, you wake up at a certain time, you've followed the same routine of you let the dogs out, and then you make the coffee and then you take the shower, and then you do all of that stuff. And then you drive to work and you go into the building and you turn on your computer and you go get a cup of coffee in the kitchen, and you curse the person prior to you because they didn't throw the empty cake up out. And that routine acclimates you to the day when you're ready to actually do work. And you don't have that when you're in the house. So you have to craft that routine. The other thing that is really critical to discipline is I'm a disciplined person. I think in part, that's how I was brought up. I got lists. I started today with a list of the shows. I want to listen to the shows. I want to record the things I want to talk to the shows about. I've got apps and all that kind of stuff for this. But having a level of discipline and lists, at the end of the day, I will say check Mark next to all or most of it. It was a productive one for me. The downside of working out of the house is that it's super easy during a commercial break on Wheel of Fortune to float into the office to look at an email or do something. I'm terrible at this. I mean, the phone used to ring and I'm like, oh my God, someone loves me enough to call and I walk in and I look at the caller ID. I've tried to end all of that stuff. You have to say, this is the end of my day, 536 o'clock. Whenever that might be, you lose socialization. Like I can't float into your cubicle and find out how your life is and how your sports team did. We can't talk about the game or your family and you can't ask that back of me. So you lose socializations, you got to take breaks and you got to get out of the house, run an errand or two, walk the dogs, lunch. You cannot have lunch in front of your computer. You have to have it in the kitchen to sort of change the frame. So I mean, it's a long answer, but it is an acquired ability and a lot of people are just getting used to it. The other thing I've just do match is you got to set boundaries for the people that are under the roof with you because your spouse will walk in and stand there during a conference call expecting that you will pause the call to answer a question. Or if you have kids, the kids will come in not believing you're working and pester you. So you've got to set boundaries for people who you're with. If you don't have a dedicated workspace. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:06:59 Also, you have to start sharing some of the utilities around the house. For instance, if you're doing a live broadcast, it's not a good time for teenagers to be gaming. Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:07:09 Correct? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:07:10 That is one thing that I've had to encounter in the past is tell the teens, yeah, you can't game and we can't be on the air at the same time. Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:07:19 So a friend of mine who's stuck in his home, he's an ex radio guy tells a great story. He's got his wife and his two adult daughters under the same roof with him. They are 1500 sqft in Florida. And he was telling me the story over the weekend that last week his eldest daughter was doing a Skype interview for a summer internship at work and she's sitting there conducting this interview over Skype and his wife. Her mother wanted a smoothie. So she walked into the kitchen in her bathrobe, loaded the fruit into the blender and the daughter gets angry because she can't conduct the interview. The kid being interviewed sees the mother in the pink bathrobe and she got up and stormed out, went to the bedroom, slammed the door, finished the interview, came back and then it was words, and all of that happens. If you don't set those boundaries, then. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:08:19 We start to broadcast. So the talent is sitting down. And this is an age old talent issue. Whether you're broadcasting from a bar, the Super Bowl, you take it on the road. You start to talk about the surroundings where you are. We're going to be served an excellent lunch. Coming up later is a little bit of breakfast, right? It's inevitable that we're going to have these conversations. And I always used to tell talent, I'd say most of what's going on around you has nothing to do with your audience. Who is correct listening to. So why does talent always want to talk about their surroundings? I always think it's because they're a little bit uncomfortable in those surroundings and have a need to express it. Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:08:56 I think you're partly right. I think that some think the audience cares. They don't. And I also think it goes to lack of prep. If you're in your house, when are you going to prep? You have to be disciplined to prep and understand the wants and needs of the audience don't change. They come to connect with you. Yes, they want to know about your life, but they want to be entertained in the process. I've heard talent, not shows that I work with. I should say this go on and on, telling the audience that they're at their Lake house or they're in the guest home, the guest house on the property. On their property. And I'm like, Whoa, I mean, what a disconnect, right? You've got the family of four huddled in their 1200 square feet laying on top of one another, not knowing what to do with tensions level rising. And you're talking about your Lake house. I think that there can be an exception there if it truly does become content. I'll give you an example of that. I was on a call. I'll tell you who this is because I'm proud of him. I love this show. Christine insulted 96 five TICF EV in Hartford. Christine was one of the early people to go into her home, and she was in the basement. And we sort of reminded everyone in the audience doesn't care where you are, so don't tell them unless it really is going to become bold content. So there's no need to do any of that. And I had asked her on the call, it was like 940 in the morning. I'm talking to the show, it's done at nine. I said, well, where are your sons? And she said, Where are my sons? They're in bed. And I'm like, It's 940. So we got a good laugh out of that, right? That's past my age and your age, but that's what teenagers are doing at 940 if they don't have school. So we decided that we would challenge her two teenage kids to contribute every morning, the 815 break, and we knew what it was. We figured out what it would be, how it would be entertaining. They're Italian, their mother's fluent in Italian. They don't know a stick of it. So they were going to come on the air and learn Italian with their mother. So we thought that would be fun. Character development. Most importantly, as we get the kids asses out of bed at 08:00 in the morning, and we thought mothers would laugh at that. And then the fact they're contributing content to the show, we feel the mother son dynamic on the air, and that would also allow for some humor. It worked. It lasted its time, but in a general sense, it's lack of prep and then believing the audience cares enough that if they say it matters to them, it doesn't. The listeners are greedy. They just want to be entertained. They do want to connect with, but they want to be entertained. And it's just not entertaining to say I'm at my Lake house or I'm in my basement. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:11:40 I want to take the prep thing just one step further because there has to be an extra layer of evaluating that prep and that's keeping it so it doesn't land in a tone deaf situation. So I'll give an example of something that came across a radio station Internet poll. What do you miss the most? Seeing friends, travel, parties or sports. And I'm looking at them going, how about a paycheck? Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:12:04 I would have said sports. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:12:10 Probably. Me too. But I thought that the pole landed in the wrong spot at the wrong time. Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:12:14 Right. I say to show, as I did very early on in this, we control how people feel. We control how people feel. So we have to be pretty careful with creating breaks that make people feel the way we want them to feel when they interact with our product. The example, the example de jour taken from this great book that I read a couple of years ago from a recommendation of a talent that I work with in Boston, the great Kennedy sent me a book called Do You Matter? And I was mesmerized by it because it's in part about marketing and I just love the topic. And it talks about Apple knows how they want me to feel whenever I interact with them, whether I go into the store to play with the new gadgets or I go to the Genius bar to get something fixed, or I the white box shows up at the house with the new gadget in it, or I have to call tech support. It's not by accident. They know how they want me to feel when I disengage with them, so that I come back for more of that feeling. And I read this and I'm like that applies to us, too. So we have an opportunity in radio. Of course, I'm a big radio advocate here's where we shine to connect with the audience and to sort of move them in the direction that we want them to move emotionally when they come to us for however long they do. So I heard a show talking about martial law and looting and the buying of guns and, well, that really is happening or that could happen is the excuse. I'm like, yes, but everyone is frightened. So why don't we walk walk in the opposite direction unless we truly need to do that, why don't we reassure people with the relationship that we have with them? Why aren't we positive? Why don't we make them laugh? Why don't we look at the brighter side of this? If we're not compelled day to day or break to break, to reflect the sadness or the fear that really is out there, people say to me, show say to me, Matt, listeners choose us for an escape. And that to me is kind of this innocuous statement that requires a follow up. So I said, well, what do you mean by an escape? An escape from what? And of course, I think for a moment I said, is it an escape from the topic? Because I don't think that that's what they're trying to escape from because relevancy drives shows, we have to be relevant and the Coronavirus is relevant right now. And so what they are running from is the stress of the topic. And that's about how we present it to the audience. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:14:50 I totally get that. Yet if I'm a PD right now, I am looking for a balance between rescuing the audience from the stress and providing the right amount of information. So what is that? Because I know I need to take a break from Twitter because it makes me stressed. Yet I go to the radio and I want the information, but I don't need a ton of information because when you're ordered to stay in the same place and go out for groceries once every seven days, there's not much to do after that. Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:15:21 Yes. And I can get information on my mobile device. We all know that. I think conveying information to them is fine. The folks at Coleman talk about the three T's of content, topic, treatment, tone. It's the topics you choose and what you do with the topics is the treatment. And then the tone matters. I work with a conservative talk show here in the States, and I had this conversation with the anchor of the show, who's awesome. He is a great local anchor. And I said, I don't think now is the time for pounding the table. I don't want to leave people angry with the other side, force them to their tribal corners. And that to me is just about the tone of voice that you bring to it. So, yes, we should share information that we might have that can be done not in a monologue, but in a dialogue with the other interesting people on the show or experts that you might have. I mean, look, Mojo in Detroit had Dr. Oz on the other day. I mean, they think that would be an interesting interview. Let's get him on and ask him what he knows about the topic. Intriguing dialogue that conveys information that has a level of emotion to it around the topic that is top shelf for everyone right now. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:16:39 What's your advice on sourcing information? How do we source information? What's the advice on that? Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:16:45 There are credible and non credible sources, and I do not want to pedal in conspiracy theories and I don't want to speculate because that just adds to the fear and anger. And that's the last thing we need right now because you can feel it's a little bit of a powder keg with no one knowing what tomorrow will bring. And then everyone has cabin fever. They're all inside. They're all stressed. I mean, the park by my house closed because there were too many people in it looking to get out. I think we have our credible sources. And if we don't have our credible sources, which everyone should, they're quite obvious, then I think you find experts like, I have a great doctor. I have a super doctor. I think now is a great time for experts. And I would ask my doctor because I believe in him and I have a chemistry with him. I mean, he's been my doctor for a long time. We make each other laugh. He's a really good person. And I'd ask him if he'd play a role on the show in conveying information, because I know he would do it in the right manner to calm the audience and that it would be perceived as credible because it is one. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:17:49 Of the things that I predicted just before we went into this and I did this on a podcast episode about a month ago, is that the opportunity for radio is that you're going to be able to reach out and touch listeners and soothe them and speak to them, and they'll put a face to you, whether that's through the Internet or through the telephone. But one of the things I didn't completely foresee, but I probably should have is the amount of wing nuts that are now contacting radio stations to challenge the advice that is being given. So we've sort of had this new contact point for talent and listeners and that's the wing nuts are getting through to the radio station and talking and putting second thoughts into talent's ears. Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:18:26 So to me, that's noise, and we need to ignore that. There are times to do radio, and then there are times to serve the community, and now is the time to serve the community because everyone is on edge. So if these were normal circumstances where I was doing a regular show and the crazies called, I'd put them on. I'd let the audience know. I didn't believe any of this, and it would be highly entertaining. I'll allow the Jerry Springer show that the wing nuts have taken over for their 60 or 90 seconds, and we're all laughing at the end of it. But now we can tilt the view and the perception of the program. I think now is the time we serve the needs of the audience, which means we have to be hyper aware of their emotional state and cater to. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:19:11 That in just a second. More on Radio's opportunity, how to get yourself out there by going live on social media platforms like Facebook and Instagram. And Steve says no contesting. And then he executes a contest on this show for the single greatest payout in podcast contesting history, $1 million. Amanda Logan (VO) 00:19:33 The Sound off podcast. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:19:35 What's the opportunity for both the talent and the station in this moment? What can they learn that they have never learned before? Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:19:42 How to connect on the deepest emotional levels? There's a talent that I talked to earlier today, and she has great fear that her husband has the virus. He has a lot of the symptoms. Some who have the symptoms go and get tested and they're negative. And I hope that's the case here because I love her, but we don't know. And I have to first say, are you comfortable bringing the audience in on that? She is. And then let's live that on the air. We could have a very cordial, fun relationship, you and me, and build a friendship from that. But when we really move our relationship or our friendship into the proverbial next level is when you present to me and I present to you a level of vulnerability in our life where we really reveal who we are and what's going on in ourselves several layers deep, which means it's not all fun and games. It is fear and pain and shame. I don't know if you've ever read Renee Brown. I adore her. She talks about the power of vulnerability is the birthplace of the greatest level of belonging, the deepest love, the most creativity, and the most satisfying relationships. So if you and I can get there in friendship where you truly reveal to me, I don't want to use the phrase your deep, dark secrets. And that's a process. By the way, trust is a product of vulnerability over time. And so you've got to earn the key. So it's not like, hey, Steve's here. Tell me about the issues you're having in your relationship. It's like we build trust over time where you're comfortable to be that vulnerable with me. And then our relationship sort of takes off in the stratosphere, and we have that opportunity right now with the audience. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:21:30 If you're on a multi person morning show, there's got to be some change because now we're not seeing those people every day. With the shows that you've worked with, have you noticed that any of the team morning shows are having trouble maybe with the chemistry that they once had in the room that they don't have being separate? Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:21:47 Absolutely. Sure. It's a great question because I've told all of them now that you're in separate locations, your comfortable surroundings have changed, therefore, the chemistry is going to change. And now we have to overcommunicate. We have to over prep. And believe it or not, this goes to the relationship they had before. If they had a foundationally, if they had a strong relationship, they've known each other for 20 years and they know a lot about each other, it will be easier. But if not, there's a situation that I have now where one cast member is out and the other two are in. And I'm not quite sure about the conversation that's going on amongst the two when the third can't hear it. And that concerns me, that their relationship concerns me. So you've got to overcommunicate. And, of course, any time you upset in a figurative sense, the dynamic where you do this, you'll take a couple of steps back. The question is, how much work will you do to regain that? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:22:48 What's the role in contesting and all this? Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:22:53 Well, I mean, I wouldn't I don't know that it has a place right now. I don't think that's what the audience wants. I think it's inappropriate, and I think it's tone deaf. Most of it that I've heard is tone deaf. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:23:05 One of the things that I do, of course, because I get sucked into the social media vortex in Instagram, for instance, and I'm not sure. Are you on Instagram? Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:23:14 I'm proud to say that I'm not on Instagram. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:23:17 Well, one of the things you do now when you turn it on is that every Bachelorette who's ever been eliminated, they're all talking to each other, and there is an opportunity. I think people are at home is more social media consumption and going live. All of a sudden, when two or three people used to pay attention to my going live, I now get 20 or 30. So it's obvious that there's some sort of consumption going on out there. So what can you tell talent right now about using any of those live opportunities? Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:23:47 Yeah. I mean, it's another connection opportunity, right. I think novel and unique, and that's where people are. And look, I'm posting more on Facebook now, and I don't like me for that because I feel it's me saying to Facebook, I require attention, and I don't like that about myself. But I get it. There's a morning guy that I work with in Amsterdam. He's a very good looking guy, quite gregarious. We were having a Skype last week, same as Giorgio. He works at Funx in the Netherlands. Really good guy. So we were doing the Skype, and I could see where he was, and I could see shirts and pants behind him while we were having the conversation. And I said, Georgia, I said, what would it be like if every day at the same time you did something on Instagram Live or on a social media platform, a feature called Giorgio Is in the Closet and he has a girlfriend. They're about to have a baby. It's a storyline on the show. And he could not stop laughing at the thesis of the idea. And I said all you would do is come on for 20 minutes, invite your fans to the forum, and they could ask any question that they wanted of you or the show or whatever you wanted to do. I don't know if he's doing it. I've not checked back. I hate to use the proverbial word opportunity. I'd certainly do it. That's where people are. Look at all of the artists who are performing on Facebook, and people are loving it. And what is an allure about? It not that they're necessarily performing as much as where they're performing. So I get to see someone in their kitchen. I get to see a performer in their kitchen. And there's something about that very scaled down production value. It feels so real because it is. And I think talent should do more of that. I'll give you an idea here. I suggested to some shows, and your listeners can certainly take this if it works, don't mind that doing a Zoom lunch asking listeners, why don't you join me for a Zoom lunch today? And you send 20 listeners the link, and you're all up on Zoom. You're all in your kitchens, you're all having a sandwich, and you see all of the boxes and you record it, and you put the video up on social media and you're just talking to these people and you pull the best audio off for your show. So you've got content for the listeners. So I say yes. It was a long answer, wasn't it, Matt? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:26:26 No, I thought it was a very good answer. And I'm amazed by the number of creative things that have sort of come up over the last few weeks. And Cory Dylan, for instance, in Atlanta, she is making some food every day in her kitchen. And I think she might be consuming wine at the same time. Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:26:43 Yeah, I would do all that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:26:46 For instance, you said you started to post a Facebook just a little bit more, but it was one of your Facebook posts that led to me reaching out to you to say, why don't we come on the podcast and talk a little bit about this? So there's some of the unintended consequences of jumping onto Facebook when you have. Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:27:00 Things like this happen. I tell shows, I've told shows in the last few weeks when we have something like this, everyone's world contracts. The world gets small in a bad way. Like I'm here in my home and I really don't venture out. And our job is radio people because I don't have as great inability to socially interact with people, even my neighbors, as much as I did. Our job in radio is to expand their world, to put more people on the show. So that people listening know that, hey, I'm not alone. I have that same experience. I'm putting weight on to. Hey, I'm going through that, hey, I've run out of stuff to look at on Netflix, listeners telling the audience that signals to me the guy who won't call the show. I'm not alone in this pandemic. And I think social media is like that too, is we are all hardwired to connect. That's a human trait. And we're all out looking for that. Whether it's the fewer number of people who might be choosing terrestrial radio, at least in the early hours, but also the greater use of social media. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:28:12 I have a solution, by the way, to your weight problem. It was done in a podcast and I will share that podcast in the show note to this episode. For anybody who is worried about putting on extra pounds during this strange time, I'm listening. Well, I'm going to put in the show notes. Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:28:26 Oh, you know, you're not going to tell me. Okay, I'll go to the show notes. Hey, Matt, can I ask you a question? Do you happen to have in front of you right now a podcast snack? I do. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:28:38 I do not have a podcast. No, I don't. I actually forgot to even bring down the glass of water I'm supposed to be drinking. Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:28:44 And I have. I did. I'm always prepared with the water. Listen, I have a podcast snack in front of me. I did say a little earlier that I don't think contesting is a smart thing to do. But what I'd like to do, Matt, is I like to do this game that I call one guest, $1 million. I have my podcast snack and I'd like to take a bite of it. And if you can guess what it is, one guess only. I'll give you a million dollars. Are you ready? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:29:15 I'm ready to play. Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:29:17 Okay, here we go. Just to prove I'm not making up. That's the bag. Are you ready? Here we go. Now take whatever time is necessary because we have no commercials to run so we don't have to hit a stop set. One guess. Okay. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:29:44 For $1 million, Steve, the answer is pretzels. Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:29:53 Is that your final. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:29:54 It's my final answer. Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:29:58 Fortunately, Matt, it was cool Ranch Doritos. Amanda Logan (VO) 00:30:03 Dang it. Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:30:04 We will play again the next time you invite me into your wonderful podcast. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:30:07 What was the drink you washed it down with? Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:30:09 It's water. It's my water. You would think it's a gin and tonic, but I'm mostly a non drinker, but it's just my water. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:30:17 Alright, Steve, if you think back, by the way, what was the last big crisis that we went through as a radio group? Was it 911 and have there been others? Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:30:28 Yeah, I think it was 911. I think the 2008 meltdown in the States was probably did affect people. There have been some smaller ones, like Jason Aldin's concert in Las Vegas when 50 plus people were murdered. I think it was obviously short lived. I don't say that to be callous at all, but that dissipated after a while. But as an ongoing thing, probably 911. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:30:56 I look at some of the stars that are coming out of all this on TV. So in the States, I think Cuomo is doing very well because he speaks in a very reassuring manner and speaking to some of the things that you were talking about earlier, appealing to people's emotions. And Doug Ford, who has always been one of these sort of staunch Conservatives in Canada, is coming across in a very warm way that he never did before. Trudeau, who got elected by being reassuring and listening, is doing that every day. But you see Trump, who got elected by saying what he wants and making it up, and that's how he got elected. So some people are changing and moving with the times, and other people are sort of staying patent who they are. So what does that mean? If you're a radio personality? Do you have to change and move? How do you flow and identify that you need to make a change? Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:31:43 I think all the great talent craftily worded, by the way, so that I don't have to talk about Trump. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:31:50 There's nothing to say about any of those people. It is all being said, twenty four seven on a new cycle. We cannot stop. And if you want to save your mind, you have to stop. Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:32:00 Yes, this is why you're so good. So the great talent look at the great talent can evolve as human beings. Howard Stern is a wonderful example of someone who has evolved as a human being over the years. If your listeners have not consumed Howard Stern in the last ten years, they walk in with a certain perception, hey, the dude is all about sex and turn them on now. And it's like there's still that element of his show. But Howard is a 60 something male who's reflecting the values of where his life is in this moment because he's had a collective number of experiences that have forced him to change. And so I always say to talent in the industry, what are you doing to grow as a human being? And specifically, where do you get back to your community so that you can further develop a sensitivity, a humanity and a level of empathy so that it ain't all about you? And here's where I think radio does its best work. And so when I work with a show and I work with the show long term and there's a lot of shows that I've been with for a really long time, I get the greatest satisfaction in seeing talent become parents and adopting causes that are important to them and affecting other people and turning the show back over to the audience because they're comfortable enough in their own skin that they don't have to make it about them. And then there are some who can't do that. Let me say this. You are like the best interviewer. I listen to your podcast and I adore everyone because you're prepared. You ask great questions. You're a hell of a listener. How you do this is just it teaches me when I listen to your podcast, you teach me how you interview and engage people for an interesting conversation. So I always leave impressed. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:34:03 My goal in life is to leave this Earth as the third best interviewer of all time because I've got Terry Gross and Howard Stern. Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:34:12 Okay. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:34:12 I might be able to get to three. I'll have to learn how to pass Dan Patrick because I think he's very good. Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:34:18 If you end your life with the bronze only, will that be satisfactory? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:34:23 Yeah, I'll take a bronze medal at that for sure. Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:34:25 All right. Well, gold plate it because, I mean, the two in front of you, Howard and Terry, are off the charts. Unbelievable. But Oprah, by the way, should be on that list, too. You can't do this without doing your homework. Every talent needs to learn that. So many walk in. Many walk in. Not so many walk in believe that they can wing it. You got to really think about what you want to get out of this and prepare for that. And then you make someone like me, Radio's most boring talent coach at least seem coaching. And I thank you for that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:34:55 I spend a half hour before every interview researching and writing down where I want to go, and then I'll sort of move the questions around into a path that I want to take. And then I'll listen to the responses that you give, and then I'll go to the question that I think fits best next. Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:35:14 Yeah. Because you think it through and you know what you want out of this, and you know how to make it engaging for people who just float in on it. Are you mad I didn't give you the million? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:35:23 No. I'll try again tomorrow. Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:35:25 Okay. We'll play it again. I guarantee we'll play it again. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:35:28 I've interviewed so many artists over the years. That was my job. My job was to do all the artist interviews, and it didn't matter that it was high on the playlist or low on the playlist. I had to give him an interview. And there's nothing worse than asking a question that has nothing to do with the album or nothing to do with the artist. So most of the research came from fear of embarrassment. Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:35:49 I have a show in Dallas that got country superstar Sam Hunt for an interview last week. Do you know this dude? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:35:55 Yeah. Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:35:56 Core artists now probably to the country format. And I have high performers at the station that I work with in Dallas. These folks, they do their due diligence. They know that they probably could wing an interview with Sam Hunt, and it would be okay. It might even be good. So they did their due diligence and they found out something about Sam's wife that they wanted to explore on the podcast. Given the coronavirus and the toilet paper, shortage alleged that no one can find toilet paper. They said to Sam that they had read in an interview that his wife was having installed in the house of a day. Have you ever used one, Matt? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:36:37 Certainly. I've been to Spain and France and Italy many times. Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:36:41 I've never used one. Is it all that in the bag of potato chips? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:36:47 Yeah, it can be. Yes, it can be. Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:36:51 So they presented this to Sam Hunt Who confirmed that that was the case that a plumber was coming to install a bidet. And for the next three minutes as they explored this with him, you could hear it in his voice. The dude never lost a smile. He loved that they knew this and explored it and then his connection to it, how he was reacting to it, how it impacted his relationship. It was like three minutes of such lightness around the big topic and you can't walk into any show believing that you're pretty enough that you can do X number of original content breaks without ever thinking how am I going to do these in a way that will resonate with the audience to set them up, to connect, to entertain them so they come back the next day for more of that candy. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:37:40 Steve, this has been fantastic. I'm so glad we got together to do this and it was all based on a Facebook post that I saw you do. So keep up the social media work. Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:37:48 Well, I'll do it when it becomes self indulgent. You'll Ping me and you'll say, okay, that one was over the line. Take a break. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:37:56 And Steve, everybody who is listening to this podcast I think should send you cocktail recipes. Steve Reynolds (Guest) 00:38:02 Okay, that's good. I need as much of those as I can get because if this goes on much longer, I'm going to need to be drunk by 530. Amanda Logan (VO) 00:38:10 Thanks for listening to the the sound off podcast. Thecast.com and connect with us. We have great social Media's house. The show is imaged using sounds from Core image Studios. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:38:21 Written and Hosted By Matt Cundill Amanda Logan (VO) 00:38:25 A production of the sound of media company.

The show has been very Canada-centric for the last few weeks, so it felt like there was no better time to bring on a broadcast legend from another part of the world. This week's guest, Nails Mahoney, has been hosting top-rated radio shows in Ireland and the UK for decades. He's also worked as a TV presenter in Ireland, and performed onstage as a stand-up comedian and keynote/guest speaker at more than 30 workshops like TEDx Dublin. But don't drift away yet, our Canadian audience! Nails has also spent time in Canadian radio, including several years at Q107. On this episode, we talk about his path through radio, and some of the differences between Irish/UK radio and the scene in Canada. For example, did you know that the rock and grunge movement of the 90's never really made it over to Ireland? We also talk about Nails' current projects and future plans, including ONAIRCOACH, his private coaching service for on-air personalities. Nails shares a lot of insight about how he coaches different types of talent and why he felt the need to start the service in the first place. Later in the show, we touch on two of his biggest and most recent endeavours: The 5th annual RadioStar contest, a tournament between up-and-coming broadcasters to bring some notoriety to their name; And The Radio Space, a social media site designed specifically for people in the broadcast industry to mix and mingle. If you're in radio and sick of using Twitter, LinkedIn and Facebook (and all the unrelated crud that comes with those sites), this is the place to be. As their website says, "Think Facebook but ONLY for radio! No Algorithm. No ads. YOU are in charge of what you see." With that being said, if you're not in the radio industry, you should still follow Nails on LinkedIn and Twitter. If you have any radio coaching questions, he'll be happy to help you out. Transcript: Tara Sands (VO) 00:00:01 The Sound Off Podcast. The podcast about broadcast with Matt Cundill... Starts now. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:08 This week, a long overdue talk with Nails Mahoney. Along with Tracy Lee, he founded On Air Coach. Nails has been a radio presenter in Ireland, the UK and Canada since 1986. He's worked at licensed and unlicensed radio stations. More about that shortly. Since 2007, he's presented workshops and seminars for the radio industry, coached presenters, personalities and hosts across the planet. He just really lives and breathes radio, and that's the kind of person we want to have on this show. Nails Mahoney joins me from the home office of On Air Coach in Malta. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:46 Tell me about Malta. Why do you live there and why do you love it? Nails Mahoney (Guest) 00:00:46 Live here? Because my partner Tracy lives here. She's been living here for about twelve years. So she hopped on board the On Air Coach bus about six years ago. And it was either stay in Ireland. When I came back from Toronto, I stayed in Ireland for a year and I just thought I needed somewhere new to refresh everything. And I thought, you know what? Tracy is based in Malta, so why don't we go down there and see how it works out. So that was four and a half years ago and just kind of stayed because it's a very easy place to live. It's small, the weather is nice, it's cheap, people are decent. So, I mean, there wasn't an awful lot to not like. And as you witnessed by even doing these podcasts, as you well know, you can be anywhere sitting in your underwear if you want to be, and still sound semi professional. So it was kind of a no brainer. And we've been here ever since. Will we stay forever? Who knows? We're here right now. We're still working it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:43 If I take a ferry boat from Malta, where can I go to? Nails Mahoney (Guest) 00:01:46 Sicily is your first stop. Bing, Bing, all aboard for Sicily. And then you will then get another ferry to take you to Southern Italy, or you can go the opposite way and hit North Africa if you want. But it's a bit of a longer ferry ride, a bit more treacherous. So let's play it safe and go to Sicily first. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:02:03 How did you ever get involved with radio in the first place? Nails Mahoney (Guest) 00:02:06 Oh, man. You asked this of everybody, right? And do you ever get an original, a brand new story? Have you ever heard a brand new one where you go, what? I can't believe that's how that happened. Has that ever happened to you? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:02:17 Yeah, actually, especially younger people. They say they kind of fumbled into it from the side, so they would go to school and take a course and it would be a little bit about content creation or they wanted to do advertising or television and then they fell into radio. Nails Mahoney (Guest) 00:02:31 I still hear that a lot. You probably do as well still hear that a lot. I often wonder, though, I mean, I'll tell you how in a second but if you don't mind me rambling for one moment, it seems to be the same route for an awful lot of people as you say, went to school, studied this studied that, decided I liked this particular part of the medium, got a small job, interned, blah blah blah, then worked my way up. Is that the general step that people take? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:02:55 That would be the normal path, yeah. It may or may not include radio school and it may involve campus radio instead. Nails Mahoney (Guest) 00:03:03 Yeah, my one is slightly different. I suppose that's not going to blow your mind or anything. My first experience on radio. Now you have to imagine this innocent little Irish boy aged about twelve. I was a boy soprano. You wouldn't know what to hear me now but voice of an Angel, Matt, voice of an angel. And we used to go around a little tours around the UK and Ireland and we were in a town called Leicester in the Midlands in England when I was about twelve years old and they said does anybody want to go on the radio and talk about the choir and the tour? We're in the entertainment business because we're slight show off so it was a bit of a show off in regard that I like to just talk and chat and try and be funny. So the hand went right up and we were brought into BBC Radio Leicester and I was just fascinated by all the people running around. This was back on real to real days. People are splicing tape and everybody had a job, a specific job and I just thought it was fascinating and then they put these headphones on your head and you get to speak and it was like wow, that sounds mental. That's not me. Wow. And I just love the sound of it. I just thought it was great. So I thought I'm going to try and do this if I can. And then when I was growing up pirate radio was really big in Ireland. So I got a gig on a pirate radio station called DCR and just started fumbling my way through things and copying everybody that I like listening to like people on Radio Luxembourg entertainers. I got into radio to entertain, not to play music, it was to entertain primarily. So I always wanted to be that guy that I heard on Radio Luxembourg, on BBC Radio One or any of these entertainment stations rather than that was this is kind of presenter that was the tow in legitimate radio with BBC and then pirate radio, all the illegal Pirates and then back into legitimate radio again about five years later. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:04:48 How do you find a pirate radio station? Nails Mahoney (Guest) 00:04:50 You don't now. They're pretty much dead in the water now. Then you see there was a loophole. Ireland is a funny little country right? There was a loophole that said pirate radio was legal pending legislation. They weren't actually illegal. They just were never qualified as legal. So you could set up a radio station without a license and they could try and shut you down, but you could start again because strictly speaking, they weren't illegal. They just weren't officially legal, if that makes sense. It's an Irish solution to an Irish problem, right? So every second person in the country, in the city, in Dublin where I was, was a DJ on the radio because there were so many radio stations, your friend would set up a radio station next door and you do a show for an hour. So it was really easy. But then the big boys came in. There were two guys in particular, Robbie Robinson and Chris Carey, who worked all the pirate ships, like in the boat that rocked these kind of shows. These guys came in and they spruced it up. They gave a professional feel. And then there was another man from the States called Bill Cunningham, who was my mentor. Bill came into the station. I was in Sunshine 101, and he formatted it properly for the first time. We had format radio in Ireland, and it just kicked the heck out of everybody else. It was the number one station within about three months, and I was lucky enough to do breakfast on that. So how do you find them? They were everywhere. But like with Internet radio, now you'll find an Internet station everywhere. Just look for one and go find 100. Right. So it was the same with pirate radio back then. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:06:24 What about Radio Luxembourg? Because I remember being in Dusseldorf in the summer of 1984, and I managed to pull it in, and I knew it had a reputation. But what does Radio Luxembourg mean to anybody who's listening to radio in Europe? Nails Mahoney (Guest) 00:06:37 Well, you're going back a tiny bit right now. It's gone 15 years or so. I don't know how long it's gone. It's gone at least a decade and a half. When I was growing up, I lived in Brussels when I was a little kid for about four years. And it was the only English speaking radio station that we could pick up, and it was only next door. Brussels is down the road from Luxembourg. So we'd hear Rob Jones, I'd hear Benny Brown. I'd hear all the great on Luxembourg. They were again entertainers. No, two songs in a row. They come on, they crack the mic open after every song. Entertain, have characters, have stories of jokes, whatever they were doing back then at the time. And there was a very special feel about it because it was almost the first pan European event that I remember. I remember thinking, wow, everybody's listening to this station everywhere. I just thought that was an amazing thing. And again, that sparked my kind of interest in, wow, these guys have got so much. There's the ability to entertain so many people just by sitting in one room and that's magic, right? To be able to sit in a room and have millions of people hear you is pretty crazy. So as a little kid, I thought that was pretty special. And Luxembourg was a very special place, but it was of its time, like everything of its time, right? It wouldn't survive now. It just wouldn't work. The format wouldn't work. It's on the Am, it would never work. So it was very much of its time, which is nice. I like things that are of their time. Then they know when to bow out gracefully. It's always good to know when to bow out. Luxembourg bowed out very gracefully. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:08:04 Thinking back to when you were twelve and you got behind the microphone, you must have had at least another 35 minutes before you departed from being a choir boy and a soprano to something completely different. I always find that the best Sopranos just completely lose their ability to sing by the time they get to the age of 13. But what was the next time that you got behind a microphone and started to work in radio? Nails Mahoney (Guest) 00:08:26 Yeah. There was a community station that opened up very local to me for like a pop up station for a couple of weeks, and I was the entertainment reporter on that one. It was an RTE station, the national broadcaster. They just popped it up like a CBC kind of thing. So I was not working. I was volunteering for that because you don't work when you're 15, really. You just volunteering. You take whatever's going. And then the pirate stations. The big break was Sunshine 101. And I ended up doing breakfast there for three years until December 88, when all the Pirates, they brought in legislation. The government finally brought in legislation to say, Listen, this whole loophole thing, we're closing it, so you all have to close, otherwise you're going to jail. Basically, it's kind of, oh, really? Oh, that's a bummer. So everything closed. All the pirate radio stations closed down and they advertised for new licenses. Luckily, I didn't have to wait. I got a gig with RTE, National Two FM. It was called the national pop music station. I would stay and I was doing evenings and weekends and stuff there. That was a big deal at the time because I think I was 21. And to get on national radio without wanting to sound like, oh, yeah, I knew that would happen. You know, when you're good at something like, you know, you're good at this, right? You wouldn't do it. If you thought you were crap at this, you wouldn't do it. So, you know, you're good at it. And I felt I was good enough to do national radio. So when it came along, I thought, first of all, I was delighted. It's like, wow, brilliant, fantastic. But at the back of my mind, I'm going, I had a feeling I might be able to get this. So that was kind of a nice way back in that emotional, you know what I mean by that? We always say when we're coaching people, what are you great at? We ask people, what are you great at? And it takes us about 2345 minutes to get the grade because most people go, well, I'm pretty good at this and I like this and I'm okay with that. And you can't build a career on. I'm okay and I'm pretty good at. You have to be great because especially in our business, so many people are going to be great and you really need to have your stuff together. So what are you great at? And I felt I could be great at radio if I just put my mind to it. So long winded answer to when I got behind the mic. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:10:38 Next, what was the legacy, though, of pirate radio? Because I think to 1989, the licenses come out, the radio dial gets cleaned up. Was there any pirate radio legacy that found its way into the commercial space? Nails Mahoney (Guest) 00:10:52 Yeah. Most pirate presenters who are good ended up getting obviously regular gigs, fully legal gigs in the new station. The problem was for about six, seven, eight months. I'm not a historian on it. There are people who are well, more versed than me on what happened afterwards. But the dial was empty, if you can imagine. You've got FM just pranked with power stations one day and then you tune in the next day and there's only three stations and they're all the national broadcaster. And one of them is very boring when you're young. It's all talk shows and politics. The other one was semiokay. And then there was a local temporary station that was put on air just to make up for the slack of the Piratesman gone. So it was really boring and quite uninteresting. So for the average listener it was a real because radio was King back then. It was everything. People protested outside government buildings for weeks on end. When the Pirates were closed, it was a big deal. So it was very boring, but most of the jocks ended up getting gigs on local stations. The problem was they licensed the local stations so slowly. I mean, Dublin was a city of just over a million and a half back then and they licensed two FM stations and that was the situation for not nearly a decade. So it was very disappointing and it was kind of boring and regulated now. So 20% news and current affairs, 30% Irish content like Cancom they have all the stipulations were with Pirates, you can do whatever the heck you wanted. So it was a pity. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:12:27 What is the difference between the radio in Ireland and the radio in the UK? And I ask this because I'm a Canadian and the only difference I can hear is the accents. Nails Mahoney (Guest) 00:12:37 Yeah. Okay. Well, first of all, because of two separate countries the same way Canada and the States are two separate countries. You got two separate governing bodies. So Offcom it runs UK and the broadcast association of Ireland. The Bai runs the Irish station. So two completely different territories, two completely different countries. So different rules, different regulations. Everything is different because they're two different sovereign States. Right. So a lot of what you're finding now, there was companies like Barr Wireless Communicor are buying up stations in both countries. For example, I think Barr is the biggest company in the UK. They run five stations in Ireland now, two of them national. So the crossover is happening put that way, which only makes sense because Ireland is a small country. It's only 5 million people, so it's a small place. So it was only a matter of time before they got bought out, I would imagine. How did you get to Canada on a plane? Well, hey, my ex wife at the time, Paula, is a Canadian citizen and she was always going back and I always wanted to work somewhere in North America just to prove that I could do it to myself. Her plan was I'm going to go back and I'm going to live there for a while. We were engaged. I went to where I'll go, I'll go and we end up in Vancouver. That's where she's from. And I remember at the time being told, yeah, good luck with that kid. You're getting a gig here. But I remember knocking on doors everywhere. And eventually JJ Jim Johnson opened up One and Pat Cardinal was behind it. He was assistant program director at LG 73 and Pat, in his insanity, put me on an overnight to see how I sounded. This guy fresh off the boat and it just kind of I wouldn't say a balloon from there, but it was the start right in LG 73 and you couldn't ask for a better station to start off with an LG. Even at the time, it was even when a. M. Was on the slippy slope, it was still an amazing station to work with amazing people. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:14:34 How long were you in Vancouver for? Nails Mahoney (Guest) 00:14:36 Most of the 90s. Came back a couple of times on short stints to Ireland. I worked in for a station in the UK called Atlantic two, five two. So Atlantic was run between RTE Irish radio and RTL radio television Luxembourg and a broadcast of the UK, all at national station in the UK, CHR tough 40 station. So I spent about wasn't even a year, maybe during midday there and then just hadn't finished in Vancouver. So we went back for another couple of years. You have a job to do. Hadn't done it. Hadn't finished it yet. So went back and ended up with Z 95 and 650 Sea aisle for a couple of years before throwing in the towel and heading back to Dublin again, where we stayed for eight more years. Ten more years. Eight years at the One station 98 FM. So most of the 90s in Vancouver. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:15:28 But you weren't done with Canada because you also worked in Toronto. Nails Mahoney (Guest) 00:15:32 Yeah, well, it was a weird one again, because radio was radio. I got the eight years out of 98 FM in Dublin doing an afternoon drive, then moved to a brand new national station called Four FM doing afternoons. And three years later, can we have a quick chat in the office, nails conversation, you know where that one goes. And then you go, oh, crap. Okay, I need a gig. So I was out of a gig. They go, right, what do I do? So I thought you do what everybody does, you start looking. So I remember seeing an ad in Milkman and I said Q and Seven looking for presenters. And I thought, screw it, why not? I know that station. I knew Harry Cogan, Howie the hitman Kogan, Hungry Man, Colin. I remember how he worked in there and him saying it was a good place. So I thought I'd go for it. And then about three months later I got an email out of the blue saying, Hi, my name is Blair. I'd like to chat with you about the gig, the job that you applied for. What job was that? I'd forgotten about it. And then I looked at his email address and I was like, right, okay. And two weeks later I had a contract signed and heading off to Toronto to do Q and seven for a couple of years. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:16:40 So we're going to call that Canada round two? Nails Mahoney (Guest) 00:16:42 Pretty much. Yeah, I guess so. I guess so. Yeah, we'll do that. That's got a nice ring to it. That's the next chapter in the book, my part of the book. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:16:52 What would you say is the difference between radio in Toronto and radio in Vancouver? I know it might be tough to compare given that these are in separate decades, but just from your view. Nails Mahoney (Guest) 00:17:01 Well, overall, first of all, radio in the two markets that I worked in in Canada, the level of professionalism was beautiful. I just enjoyed it. I enjoyed the fact that great things were expected of you in Irish radio at the time. If you did great things, that was nice. But it's okay, don't worry about it. You're doing fine kind of thing. Whereas especially in Toronto, I remember having an air check with Blair, one of the first air checks with Blair Bartim, problem director of Q 107 at the time. And I was about three weeks at the end of the gig. And I knew the talk break that was coming up wasn't fantastic. So I was getting my excuse ready. So player plays the audio he stops it and I looked at him with that smile and went, hey, I wasn't going for the award with that one. Hahaha trying to brush it off. Switch Player very nicely said, Nails, we're always going for the award here. And he just kept playing the next piece of audio. And I thought, yeah, okay, I got it. The bar is super high and it never lowers, right? So I had to up my game more than I ever did before, which was fantastic because it made me sharpen everything that I had and really think about what I was doing. Whereas sometimes, especially in the Irish radio, I was used to look you could wing at some shows if you weren't in the mood. That's okay, don't worry about it. I was told, no, every time we crack the mic open, you're going for the award. So up your game. And that was great. I really appreciate that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:18:31 I'm thinking of some of the people that you've come into contact with, and you mentioned JJ and you mentioned Pat and you mentioned Blair and some great radio stations, like said, 95 and LG and Q 107. These are some pretty big radio stations that you got to work with and some, I guess, radio stations that are really all about great performance. Nails Mahoney (Guest) 00:18:52 Don't ask me how it happened, because I still don't understand. And I think you need to have that ability to. Yeah, think you're good. It's nice. Like I was saying, it's nice to think you're good, but still be humbled by the fact that somebody wants to pay you to talk on their radio station, to perform for their format and their call letters. It's just such a huge privilege. And sometimes you do have to pinch yourself. And even if I was working for a station that was struggling, still, the fact that somebody thinks I'm good enough to hire is, to me, an amazing thing. And yeah, the bigger the station fantastic. I mean, Atlantic Two Five two that I mentioned, I know that will be alien to most Canadian listeners or Canadian radio people. It's average quarter at the time was a quarter of a million people. We're talking an absolute monster of a radio station. And the great thing was when you're not on air, it was just run like a little family enterprise. Everybody got on, everybody was happy, everybody was just doing their thing, and they're just all good friends. There was no ego, there was no we're the greatest thing in the world. Because that's not what it's about. It's about just enjoying the fact that you're part of something special. In 2007, when I was there, I really felt I mean, I felt really honored to be part of that station because I'd known all about it. I've heard it's a legend. It's like C 100, Kiss La. It's just known. The name is just known. Even across the other side of the world, people know Q 107. So to be able to say that you did, that was one of the things Sycophantic. But it was a great honor to open the mic in a market that size on a station that legendary and say the name pretty cool, pretty cool. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:20:37 In just a second: More with Nails as we talk about air checks and feedback. Oh, those uncomfortable conversations. Also, his projects like Radio Star and the Radio Space. And if you are in radio, you should join the Radio Space. The link is in the show notes of this episode. And there's more. There's always more on our episode page at soundoffpodcast.com. Mary Anne Ivison (VO) 00:21:02 Transcription for the Sound Off Podcast is powered by Poddin. Your podcast is an SEO goldmine. We help you to dig out. Start your free trial now at Poddin.io. Tara Sands (VO) 00:21:02 The Sound Off Podcast. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:21:16 You've been air checked? Nails Mahoney (Guest) 00:21:18 Oh, yeah. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:21:20 Many before you. What would you tell anybody who sort of lows air checks or doesn't look forward to going into them, doesn't like to hear the sound of their own voice or gets nervous before them? What feedback can you offer them about the process? Nails Mahoney (Guest) 00:21:33 It's funny. Tracy and myself did a call with Rogers Media, all their program directors across the country a few months ago. They were all on board the calls with 30 different program directors. And we were talking about air checking because we did a survey with presenters. And one of the survey questions was, what do you think of air checking? And of course, every presenter says, don't like them? And there was this roar of laughter down the line and we were thinking, why is everybody laughing? And the general consensus back to the programmers where we don't like them either, we don't like doing them. So we're kind of, oh, really? Okay, that's interesting. We didn't know that the whole point. What they were saying was when you're presenting, you're nervous because you're being air checked. Program directors, content controllers, whatever you call them nowadays are also nervous because they don't want to screw up. And when you think about it, it's only when we started coaching and air checking, we realized what a responsibility it is because if I screw up and give wrong advice or give wrong direction to somebody who needs direction, you're responsible for how they move next, where they go next, what they do next. So it's a big deal. So I would say to first of all, to presenters who are being air checked, understand the person air checking you is also feeling it. They're also maybe not nervous, but very aware that this is something that they need to get right as well as you, unless, of course, your program director happens to be a Dick, excuse the expression, and just gets off and giving people a hard time. But they are less and less in the industry now. Thankfully, there are way less of those people in the industry now. Most people who air check do it out of a desire to help and desire to bring you forward. The best air checks that I've ever had are generally not show air checks, as in we listen to the whole show, they'll take one talk break and we'll talk about that. And to me, they're the best because it takes the pressure off and we're going to listen to this break. I like this. I didn't like this, or there was something I heard in this that I think we could chat about, play the talk break, play the audio, and then talk about it. If it's a ten minute air check or an hour, it doesn't matter. Once the conversation is over, it's over. It takes all the pressure off everybody and we can all go about our business and feel good and learn something about what we just spoke about. To me, that's a better way to air checks need to be reinvented. That's my thinking on it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:23:47 If you ask talent what their number one complaint is, it could be I don't like air checks, but at the same time, I don't get air checked enough. So they do crave feedback. Nails Mahoney (Guest) 00:23:57 And I'm telling you, one of the reasons we always say, Tracy myself always say our job should not exist. We should not be able to make a living out of what we do. Because what we do is we work with presenters who have program directors and content directors, and we asked them, why did you come to us? And that's one of the top answers. I don't get feedback. And we're like, okay, well, we'll give you feedback and we'll do that. Or I don't get attention or I don't know how I'm doing or I'm just told I'm good, yeah, great, that kind of thing. So, yeah, we complain and I say we because I consider myself a presenter in my bones. We complain about not getting air checked and we complain during the air check and we squirm on our seat, but afterwards we're pleased we got that air check. We're pleased we got that connection. It's like anything else. I mean, when you put yourself out there and presenters are on air, people are always putting themselves out there. Whether you're trying to be funny, controversial, stimulate new thoughts, whatever it is you're putting you out there for criticism. So when you sit down to be purposely critiqued, it can put a lot of pressure on you. It can't go, crap, here we go. What are they going to say? So obviously we don't like that. It's like somebody wearing a pair of trousers and everybody comments on them walking down the street like your trousers don't like your trousers. They're nice trousers. Where did you get Jesus Christ in the home, just a pair of trousers. But you become very aware of you. And with an air check, you become very aware of what you're saying and what you're putting out there, obviously it's under the microscope. But if we can take that pressure away by just chatting and just conversing and not analyzing so much and I'm talking analyzing as in nitpicking, because everybody's got their style. I mean, if you're new to the business, you need to learn the rules. You need to learn how formats work. I'm talking they're checking actual content and personality and emotion because it's all about emotion. Right. Everything you say on the radio has to emotionally connect with the listener. Otherwise they're not going to feel it. The listener has to feel it. They can't see you, so they have to feel it as well as hear it. So that's what I'm talking about. When I talk about air checks. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:25:57 I'm going to think back right to the beginning of the show when what are you good at? What are you great at? But isn't that the whole purpose of bringing in what you do for a living is to really sort of read the label from outside the pickle jar, because when you're inside a radio station, it's very tough to read it. It's almost like you're in a bit of a fishbowl. So I would say that this is why we need you and that's to come in and really give that big overview into what somebody is really good at in order that they could do more of that and maybe less of what they're not strong at. Nails Mahoney (Guest) 00:26:31 Yes, I totally agree. Whether we're needed or not, I don't know that we're still here. So obviously there's some sort of a need. What we find is we've been told in the past that one of the reasons radio stations, for example, will bring us on board to listen to and work with the panel of presenters is exactly like you said, sometimes the program director is too close to the coal face and can't see the coal. So you need somebody who's a bit further back to see what's going on and hear what's going on. We've just been working with a station in Glasgow in Scotland over the last few weeks, and the feedback from the programmer there and the CEO there was exactly what you said. That's the thing about it. We're not reinventing anything here, but we're trying to basically get people to see what again, the word great, what they're great at. And if somebody hires us, we will extract that from them. The difference between a consultant and a coach. We don't call ourselves consultants because we're not. We're coaches. A consultant, to me, knows pretty much everything there is to know about the radio industry. We know presentation. That's what we know. That's our thing, that's our niche, that's our strength. That's what we deal with. So we will coach a person to be the best presenter they can be and the best presenter on a particular radio station that they can be. And we take it personally when it's not working. That's why we will do extra sessions with people. We'll say, listen, we're out of time or we've done our six weeks or three weeks. Will you come back in a couple of weeks time, because we want to do some more stuff with you, because it's very important. You get very emotionally involved with people, especially new people who will ask us. You got to remember, a lot of people who want to get into radio aren't in radio yet or have lost a job. And in order to hire us, ultimately they need to put their hand in their pocket, money they've earned. They've gone out and worked for money and they're handing that to us to help them. So for us to kind of take that anything but incredibly seriously would be a disgrace. So we really feel that, all right, this person has come to us. We have to get them what they want or close to it. And until we do, we don't give up on them. And that's why we do this. It's more than just consulting. It's coaching and coaching is very personal. I mean, we got an email. I can't say the guy yet because it's not official, but he just got a morning show in the UK. He's been out of work for three years. He's been working with us for the last year, and he finally got a morning show last week. He hasn't signed the contract yet. But, man, I mean, we were on a high for about an hour after that. It was so great. That's the real reward, to be honest with you. That sounds really corny, doesn't it? That's the real reward. But it kind of is, yeah, we have to eat. But the feeling that somebody has a better life now that they've achieved what they want to do because they came to us is amazing. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:29:21 Who does come to you? Is it programmers, general managers or presenters? Nails Mahoney (Guest) 00:29:25 Mostly programmers and presenters, number one. Right. If you're going to do a list of presenters, number one, just individuals who want help or want to get into the industry or want air checking or want to move on or been in the same job for the same shift for too long and feel they have more to offer than programmers who want us to look at certain presenters, a group of presenters or their entire roster. And then the bottom is not the bottom. The third on the list. Bottom makes it sound like it's important, isn't it? Third on the list will be people who are new to radio. It's like everybody says, or you hear people say, oh, everybody's got a book inside them. Well, we get the people who are told, you've got a radio show inside you, and they'll come to us and we'll tell them, listen, you either have it or you don't or start off really small or start off doing this or that or the other. So they're the three students will come to us as well, but they'll be part of something else. They'll be part of a course or something that they've been sent to us usually. So they're usually the three presenters and program directors and people who want to get into the industry. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:30:25 How do you know when a radio performer has it you hear it? Nails Mahoney (Guest) 00:30:30 First of all, you really do. This guy was telling me about the just got landed that morning show when we first heard him because actually, it's always funny. We say before we hear anybody, we say, yeah, okay, listen, before we do anything, send us over your audio and we'll see if we're a good match because there's no point in us working if we're not a good fit. It's happened before. We'll give somebody a 30 minutes call and we just don't connect. We just don't our personalities clash. There's no point in us talking to each other or working because we'll send them to someone else. We literally will save them. Listen, this person will be better for you. But this guy in particular, I'll give you that example. We said, okay, listen, send us your audio. We'll have a listen. We'll see what the problem is, why you're not able to get a new gig. Let's figure it out. The email lands and you'll see MP3 attached and you go, all right, here we go. Let's see what we got here. And then you click play and it's either, okay, I see what the problem is or it's, wow, okay, we're onto something here. And this guy was, oh, boy, this guy is good. Wow. Okay, that's original. And it keeps playing. The audio is playing and it's like didn't see, okay, yeah, he's got something. So you know immediately and you know what you have to do with them immediately. A lot of the time, you don't have to do very much with their on air product. They're just not marketing themselves properly. They're just not using social media properly. They're not connected with the right people yet. It could be something as simple as that. Or you'll hear the person, you go, you've definitely got something, but we need to work on it. It's like taking a jewel and it's covered in mud and dirt and everything. You got to get rid of all that stuff first to find the jewel underneath. Right? So that's what we do. We try and just get rid of all the dirt that's run in the talk breaks and crutches and cliches and all the nonsense radio speak that we picked up and everybody has picked up along the way. All of those cliches that we've heard in the past, they all come out when somebody is working hard at trying to get where they want to get to. So we've got to knock all that off them. And you just know what to do. Put it that way, when you've been in radio as long as you have and as long as we have, you just know what to do. I'm sure you've coached people in the past, Matt. People have come to you for advice and you can just tell I know exactly what you need to do to start off, to just clean up your act. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:32:41 Tell me about Radiostar. Why did you start it? Nails Mahoney (Guest) 00:32:45 Well, I didn't. Tracy started that about five years ago. The initial spark for Radiostar was kind of what I was saying about the last guy, as in not connecting with people. One big complaint we got was I send my audio, my resume, my CV, my cover letter off, and I never hear back from programmers, ever. I never hear back. I've sent off 20 applications, nothing. So we thought, well, is there a way to do something about that? Well, Tracy was working on this for quite a while. And eventually she thought, well, why not have a competition, get people to send us their audio? And then we will literally say to program directors, listen to the audio and judge the audio as a way to get people heard. So that's how it started off. So the first year was small, as you can imagine. Nobody ever heard of the damn thing. So it was kind of what's this? And we had about 20, 1520 programmers and radio people up till last year when we had 250 programmers and consultants and radio presenters and radio people, industry people from all around the world. We're talking from Honolulu to Auckland, from Singapore to London, from Toronto to Rio, all over the place, all across the planet. We've got judges and it ballooned into this thing. And now it starts again this month, June 15, as a cut off for entries. And the whole idea now is to create stars. That's what we're saying. Are you the next radio star? Because the whole plan is to get you your dream gig. Last year's winner, Rosa from Leicestershire in England is in Melbourne. Now she's talking to radio stations in Melbourne. She literally upsticks and moved country because most of her great feedback came from program directors in Australia. They said they loved her. And she said, would it be worth my while traveling and moving to Australia? They said, yes, move here. So she moved to Australia. A year before that, Alice Vickery Alice was doing a small podcast in Cornwall in England. On the back of winning radio Star got a gig with BBC and networks for BFBS, which is a national network. And she just moved to Cyprus now, where she does a national radio show, an English speaking national radio show in Cyprus. So the whole point was getting noticed. And now it's turned out that it's become a great way to get noticed, which is really nice. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:34:59 And you just recently created Radio Space. What is it? Why do I want to join it? Nails Mahoney (Guest) 00:35:05 You don't want to join that, Matt. Why do you want to join it? Okay, again, the reason we set up Radio Space. Radio Space. We call it social media for Radio. Because I go on LinkedIn like anybody. I go on Facebook like anybody, and I see the same posts all the time. Number one, repeat, repeat, repeat. And then on LinkedIn especially, I'm seeing posts that don't interest me because I'm following all these radio people. But naturally, these other radio people know nonradio people in their lives. They have these people in their lives who post stuff up on LinkedIn. And when the radio person that I'm connected to likes it, I see that third person's post. And it could be about their cat. It could be about what they're making for dinner, it could be about a new car that they drove. And I'm not interested. I'm on LinkedIn for radio. I want to talk radio, and I'm on Facebook for the same thing. So we thought and again, we had this conversation years ago. Wouldn't it be great if there was some social media just for radio? And we just decided to do it a couple of months ago, we looked into ways of doing it, and we found a network that lets you launch your own social media. So we did. And it's up there now called the Radio Space. And at the moment, it's not invite only, but you have to find the link. It's not the radiospace.com because we don't want anybody just joining. We want just radio people. So you need to look for us. You need to find the link on LinkedIn, on Facebook, on Twitter. Sorry, I don't know. We're making it difficult, but you need to find it. You need to actually want this in order to be in it. We're not looking for a million members. If we have 5000 in the next five years, we'll be happy. So long as it's working, as long as the idea is working, we're not all about getting massive quantities of people and selling it in ten years. We want a place where radio people can go and know it literally is only going to be about radio. There's nothing else here because we need it. I think it's nice for the industry to have that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:36:55 So you're not about a mass audience. You're about the right audience. Nails Mahoney (Guest) 00:36:59 Correct. Thank you for doing that, for putting that so succinctly. Yes, exactly. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:37:03 Is it okay if I put a link to this in the show notes of this episode? Nails Mahoney (Guest) 00:37:07 Absolutely, man. Of course you can. Yeah. That's selected that. We refuse people. We're not bounces at the door saying, you can come in, you're not getting in. It's just we want to make it so that people who want to find it will find it. That's the only reason we keep it like it is. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:37:21 All right, so there's a link for that in the Show notes of this episode. And because I know that you listen to a lot of radio around the world, tell me about a country I should be paying attention to who's doing radio really well. Or it could be a radio station somewhere on the planet that I should put as a preset to listen to. Nails Mahoney (Guest) 00:37:40 What type of format do you like? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:37:42 I like rock music, but I know that there's not a lot of rock over in Europe necessarily. It could be just mainstream or Top 40 for all it is. Nails Mahoney (Guest) 00:37:49 Okay. You're right about the rock format. I often wondered why that is, why it didn't take so much over this side of the world. I'm not sure what that's all about. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:37:57 Oh, I do. Nails Mahoney (Guest) 00:37:59 Tell me, tell me. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:38:01 I think it happened in 1981 or 82. With the advent of MTV and radio in Europe went off into keyboards, electro, and sort of continued on. They sort of evolved the dance sound a little bit more. And Meanwhile, in America, Steve Doll had blown up disco records in 1979. I think that's where it split. What happens in America is that the music begins to go into the Crapper. And it really took Duran Duran and a bunch of artists like Soft Sell to come over and sort of change the sound of the radio and really revitalize that. And at the same time, MTV really did propel the rock sound, where in Europe they didn't have that. Nails Mahoney (Guest) 00:38:43 It's crazy because excuse me, I'll be having conversations here with Tracy about music or something will come on the radio or whatever, and I won't know what it is. I go, that's a good song or whatever, and say, yeah, you know this, right? I got to know what? How do you not know this? I don't know what this is. What year was it released? Say, 91 92, whatever. Go, yeah, I was in Vancouver, 91 92. It sounds really strange now, doesn't it? The songs that weren't heard in one part of the world but were in the other. And as you said, it's always an electronic dance kind of tune or something. It's a non guitar drum based song. So, yeah, now I can see that makes sense. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:39:19 I think also I asked people in the said, what are you listening to? I go, Robbie Williams. I said, well, we're all about Pearl Jam. I don't know what planet you're on. And they didn't know what planet I was on, but Grunge didn't cross the ocean very fast. Nails Mahoney (Guest) 00:39:32 That is so true. There was one Pearl Jamsaw that made it over here, Jeremy. That's it. That's it. And I knew all of them. I knew them all. Yeah. I get you here's a station in Dublin, my hometown, that allows bashed the drum for a Spin 138, which I like, which is a Cross 40 station, but they have an afternoon drive there one of my favorite presenters called Steve Kay. The reason I like Steve K on Spin 138, because Steve is the master of word economy and I love word economy. I built a career on word economy at the start, and I just think it's probably the greatest skill a presenter can have. When you have great word economy, everything else just flows perfectly. And Steve can do it better than anybody I've ever heard in that part of the world. He's got the enthusiasm. He's got the excitement he's been doing it about 30 years now. He's done the rounds, he's paid his dues. He's got the number one drive time show in that market. He's an award winner. Yada yada, yada, yada. But I would definitely listen to Steve K on Spin 138 just to hear number one. Nice, beautiful, tight format, lovely, tight format. But the way he works it in particular is just seamless. I worked in the same building with Steve years back and we were having a jocks meeting. All the jocks are in the room and the doors open and Steve was walking past and we were talking about word economy. And the program director at the time, Tony Tonalia, Tony Networks. She does mid days in Melbourne with gold in Melbourne. But Tony turned around and saw Steve. She goes, Steve, quick question for you. This is when Britney Spears was doing something what it was. She goes, how would you introduce the new Britney Spears song on Spin? And he goes, how do you mean? Give me your link. And he goes, okay, new Britney spin. And he walks off and starts laughing. And we all started laughing because that was the ultimate word, economy. Three words and it sums it all up. New Britney spin. Bam, done. Now, he doesn't do that every week, but I just thought that's exactly the type of how to get to the damn point as quickly as succinctly as possible. And he does it better than anybody. So there's a station for you, Spin 138. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:41:34 Where can we find you on the internet to connect with you and everything you have to offer? Nails Mahoney (Guest) 00:41:39 Hey, there's this new social media site called the Radio Space. We're on that quite a bit. Linkedin is where I usually am, just nails Mahoney on LinkedIn, Twitter, at, onaircoach. And if you want to email us, we're info@onaircoach.net and you'll either get myself or you'll get Tracy, depending on who's on desk duty that particular hour, because we take it in shifts a lot of the time when we're not coaching. But, yeah, listen, the thing about it is, as we say, we're not consultants. So as coaches, we're always open to even just having a quick chat with anybody. You don't have to hire us, you don't have to make it a big official. We're doing a six week course. Just send us a note and we'll answer your back or we'll listen to your audio or whatever. That's what it's all about. Because if you're better on the radio, then radio is better. And radio at the moment needs to be better than it ever was and stop competing with itself. Radio is competing with itself more than it's competing with Spotify and YouTube. It's still competing with radio. We need to all come together and work to make radio as great as it can be. And if we can do 1% to help make that better, then that's what we'll do because it's very important. It's how we all make a living, it's how we eat, it's how we put roofs overhead, feed our families, send their kids through College. This is how we do it, through this thing called radio. So we're all about making it better for everybody- if we're asked. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:42:56 Nails, thanks so much for doing this. My best to Tracey, and carry on. Nails Mahoney (Guest) 00:42:59 Matt, thank you for asking. Absolute pleasure. Good to talk to you. Tara Sands (VO) 00:43:02 The Sound Off Podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski. Social media by Courtney Krebsbach. Another great creation from the Soundoff Media Company. There's always more at Soundoffpodcast.com.

It's not unusual for me to bring old friends onto the show. In fact, a good chunk of our episodes have come about because of existing connections I've had in the broadcast industry. What is unusual, though, is for me to bring on a friend from all the way back in elementary school- one who's also had an incredible broadcast career, and who until recording this episode, I hadn't spoken to since 1984. This week's guest, Adrian Harewood, has been with the CBC since 2006. Once upon a time, he was the host of a little radio show called All In A Day on CBC Radio One, but in recent years he's moved in front of the camera and into our homes. He's currently the host of CBC News Ottawa at 6, and has been a guest host on other CBC shows like As It Happens, Sounds Like Canada and The Current. He's also a full-time Professor of Journalism at Carleton University. I'm not the jealous type, but those are some lucky students. It may also interest you to know that before his time at the CBC, Adrian also hosted a radio show on CKUT, the radio station for his Alma Mater, McGill University. The show was called Soul Perspective, and was dedicated specifically to discussing the issues faced by Black Canadians, such as racial inequality, racial profiling, and notably, homophobia in the black community. In this episode, Adrian and I catch up on lost time by discussing his past, present and future. We walk through his time at the CBC, the changes he's seen, and how and why he became a professor. We also talk about his recent appearance on the Canadaland podcast with Jesse Brown, where he took the time to give an inside report on the systemic racism he's seen in the media and at the CBC. You can listen to that episode here: For more of Adrian, you can follow him on Twitter. If you're in Ottawa, you can also see him every night at 6:00 on CBC News. We also made mention of Adrian's interview with the Legendary Ken "The General" Grant who did mornings at CFRA for a very long time. Here it is! Transcript: Tara Sands (VO) 00:00:01 The Sound Off Podcast. The podcast about broadcast with Matt Cundill... Starts now. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:11 This story goes back to 1982, when my family moved to Ottawa. Moving means having to go to a new school. That school was called Ashbury College, and the two years I spent there were a lot of fun, even though moving and having to meet new friends is truly a pain in the ass. One of my classmates was Adrian Harewood. Here were some of my observations about Adrian from 1982: He was one of the best soccer players on the field, great teammate on the hockey team, excellent actor in the school productions, well read, top grades, and winner of the Wood Shield at Ashbury College, which one would get for being an all around awesome student. For comparison's sake, the inaugural winner of that award was John Turner, who went on to become Canada's Prime Minister the same month Adrian won that award. It's amazing all the stuff I remember. Fast forward to 2007 when I stumbled into the fact that Adrian had also gone into broadcasting. And then I thought about the different paths we had taken since June of 1984, when my family moved back to Montreal and I left my Ottawa friends behind. Adrian and I have not spoken since then, so I figured now is a good time for a catchup. Adrian has been working at the CBC in Ottawa since 2006, anchoring the news, and also recently appeared on the Canadaland podcast with Jesse Brown to discuss systematic racism in media and at the CBC. I would encourage you to give that a listen as well. There's a link to it on our web page. Adrian Harewood joins me from his home in Ottawa. Adrian, do you remember when we first met? Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:01:43 I think you came to the school in grade six. If I remember correctly. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:48 It was actually grade seven, but we met that grade six year because Ashbury came to LCC to play in a hockey tournament. And I went and introduced myself to all you guys. Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:01:58 I remember that arena. It was a very peculiar arena, this kind of outdoor arena with- I think it had like a tarp for a roof. That's how I remember it at LCC. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:02:14 Yeah, Lower Canada College had a rink. It was just a metal covering, but it was still artificial ice. You probably remember it because it was cold that weekend. And if it's cold, you're looking for gloves and you're looking for a hat and you're looking for some extra reinforcements. I used to referee games in that building. And funny enough, one of the games I was refereeing, Max Story was there, and he said, you haven't learned a thing, have you, Cundill? And I said, no, I have not. But that's a separate story for one of many that we're probably going to say here today. But I would give a player a ten minute misconduct and they would throw another fit. And then the linesman came to me and said, Why don't you throw them out of the game? And I said, Because I want them to be cold in the penalty box rather than warm the dressing room. Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:02:57 You're a cruel man, Matt Cundill. Cruel, cruel, cruel. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:03:00 Yeah. But it's amazing that you remember that rink because it was a very special ring. But you'll be happy to know that Lower Canada College has moved on and built a real rink, finally. Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:03:11 Okay. I haven't been back for a while. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:03:12 What was your experience like at Ashbury, by the way? Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:03:15 Well, it was a very formative period, of course, in my life. I was what was called a lifer at Ashbury. So I started going to Ashbury. I think it was the year I think it was 1979, 1980, maybe 1980. So I was turning ten that year, grade five, and I stayed until I was 18, until grade 13. It had a profound impact on me in terms of the academics, in terms of the sports that I was introduced to, in terms of the arts that I was able to participate in, in terms of the community, of course, the community of friends that I was able to develop over those eight or nine years. It was probably the most important kind of institution for me growing up because it was kind of a total body experience. It dominated your life. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:04:16 I was only there for two years, but the two years that I was there, yeah, same thing. Profound effect in a very short period of time. So who is your favorite teacher or one teacher that really left a mark on you? Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:04:29 There was a teacher named Nick Discom. Who was this English born teacher. I think he arrived at the school when I was in grade six, and he really kind of transformed the place because he was such an iconoclast. I would describe him as being and he was a bit of a rebel. He was a bit irreverent. And I'm realizing this now, I probably didn't fully appreciate it at the time, but he was constantly pushing against the established order of the school. And I think that he was probably regarded by some of his colleagues as being a bit of a nuisance. And probably he was seen as being a little bit sophomore. No, really didn't play by the rules and was constantly kind of poking at the bear. But he had this sense of freedom and he had this sense of play. He had this kind of imagination that was quite seductive, actually, and very attractive for a young person. He marched to his own beat. He was not averse to trying things. So I think he was quite an inspirational figure. And he also didn't talk down to the boys. It seemed as if he was one of us. So it spoke to a certain kind of Democratic spirit. I suspect that he was probably, if not a socialist. He was probably a social Democrat in terms of his politics. He was very progressive, but he believed in the power of people like ordinary people. Private schools are elitist institutions. Nick Discom was someone who was railing against the elite, although he was very much part of the institution. Right. So he made the decision to teach at that school. He was almost like a kind of a revolutionary within that space. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:06:32 He would cycle past my house every morning, and when he would go by, I would know that it was time for me to get to school as well. And he would cycle, by the way, in some infamous snowstorms. Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:06:45 I didn't know that. I don't remember him being a cyclist, so that's interesting. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:06:49 Did you know that he also made films? Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:06:52 I didn't know that, but it doesn't surprise me. Yeah. Again, I got the sense that he was an artist. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:06:59 He went to do some work, I think, with the National Film Board of Canada, and I think that's what happened after he was done teaching us for a couple of years was I think he picked up a job at the National Film Board. Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:07:10 Interesting. I'd love to reconnect with him because he was such a he was such an important figure at the school. He added a kind of spice and added some pizzazz and added a certain fuck you to the school, which I think the school needed. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:07:33 I also would have accepted Greg Simpson as an answer. And you mentioned arts. There's a teacher that had such a profound effect on me because here we were. We did school plays. I think by the time we hit grade eight, we were doing Pied Piper. You and I were rats or something like that. But the production and the choreography and everything that went into it was so high level. It was incredible. The work that we put into that thing, we're only in grade eight. We're doing these professional warm ups. I had no idea that what he was really warming us up with was yoga, but it worked and calmed us down and leveled us out, and we all work as a team. I'll just never forget what a great experience that was. And it stuck with me to this day and probably turned me into a performer. Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:08:18 Well, he brought a level, and again, I'm just reiterating what you're saying. He brought a level of professionalism and a certain kind of dedication and discipline to the drama Department, to the school that I don't think the school had seen before. And it's not surprising that one of his proteges was Matthew Perry. Of course, Matthew attended the school for Matthew was there for three years. And Matthew Perry, of course, went on to be one of the stars of Friends and had a significant career in Hollywood. But Matthew was very much molded and very much, much influenced by Greg Simpson, and I know that they've maintained that friendship over the decades, and there are a lot of great performers, a lot of great actors that came out of Ashbury. And really, they owe a lot of their later success to Greg Simpson, who really just instilled this. There was a certain kind of focus and diligence and rigor that he infused in everything that he did. And I remember he just forced you to care so much about everything. And I can remember in one instance becoming, like, really emotional. I was just so invested in this production and I felt so responsible. And it was because you wanted to do right by him and do right by the production. And so if you let him down or if you let the production down, you felt you were crestfallen, you know, you felt as if you failed art somehow, or it was a very intense experience working on a play with Greg. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:10:02 Simpson when you were done at Ashbury. Why did you choose McGill? Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:10:07 I think I always found Montreal intriguing. I think I wanted to get the hell out of Ottawa at that time. There used to be a joke they used to call Ottawa boredom on the redo. As a teenager, I just felt that Ottawa was a bit small. It was too small and it was too provincial, and I needed something different. Mcgill also seemed less, I want to say it seemed more Bohemian, but Queen seemed to be like a carbon copy of Ashbury. It seemed a bit too posh and a bit too preppy. I'd been through the Ashbury experience, U of T. My dad had gone to U of T, and again, it just seemed a little bit too institutional. Mcgill seemed more almost free form, like in thinking in terms of jazz terms. It was more improvisational. It didn't seem as set. I think I was attracted to that aspect. But Montreal, of course, as a city, was a huge draw. Mcgill had a certain kind of reputation. I guess I was attracted to that as well. Going to McGill, it had a certain kind of ring to it. I suppose that was one of the best decisions I ever made in my life, actually, because going to McGill again, it changed my life. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:11:29 And you got a BA in Polysai and you were, I think, there for more than just a couple of years, though, like, for a good part of the well, I was there and then. Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:11:41 I left and then I came back for a job. I went to University in 89 and then I was there until 93, 94, and I left for a couple of years, and then I came back for a job in managing the McGill radio station, CKUT, and I was there between 1996 and 1999. So, yeah, I was in Montreal for about eight or nine years. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:12:13 I'm kind of sorry we didn't run into each other because I was there from 92 to about 94 and the halves won the Stanley Cup. So I spent a little bit of time but I was working all night at showmefm. Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:12:26 Right. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:12:27 Surprised I didn't get a call from you. Clearly you don't listen to showmefm. Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:12:31 Yeah. I've always been an audio file and I listened to a lot of radio and I didn't listen to as much, Sean. I don't know exactly. I listened a bit of Terry Demand. Terry Demand was on shown, if I remember correctly. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:12:42 Yeah. But at a normal hour. Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:12:44 At a normal hour, I think maybe late at night. I was probably, like at that time kind of talking politics with my friends and we were organizing stuff. So that's what I was probably doing late at night. What were we doing? We listened to a lot of shortwave actually listened to a fair amount of shortwave radio at that time for various parts. And if I was listening to radio late, late at night, like you, I was a bit of a sports fiend. So I used to listen to a lot of American sports radio late at night, like WFAM, the Fan in New York City. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:13:26 66. The fan comes booming in. Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:13:29 Yeah. And I listened to what was another word? Wbz was it WBZ that would come through? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:13:35 Wbz was from Boston. Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:13:37 There was one from St. Louis as well. Camoux, Km, Ox, K-O-X. That was it. Yeah, they were coming. I was listening to those. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:13:46 And WGN would come in from Chicago. Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:13:49 That was it. Wgn, you're right. Yeah, that was it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:13:52 Wgn, there you are in Montreal in the smack dab in the middle of 95. It gets to October 95 and the country nearly falls apart. I think we've all conveniently forgotten how close we came to having some sort of constitutional crisis. Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:14:09 So in 95, I was actually back in Ottawa. I was back in Ottawa when the referendum happened. But in terms of politics, when I was at McGill, I became well, I would say my first couple of years at McGill, I was heavily into soccer. I was on the varsity soccer team, and I've played on the team for a couple of years. But increasingly I became more and more engaged in student politics. I wouldn't even call it student politics. I would call it movement politics and became involved in organizing. So I became very involved in the Black Students Network at McGill. And I was also involved with the anti apartheid organization, the Southern Africa Committee. So those were two organizations. And I would say at the time, the Black Students Network was probably the most active and also the most radical grouping on campus. We had some of the most and I'm certainly not counting myself, but some of the most kind of impressive leaders, I would say of my generation happened to be at McGill at that time. It happened to be in the Black Student Network's orbit. So, for example, one of the organizers, one of our leaders was a woman named Miriam Cabba. And Miriam, if you were looking at The New York Times bestseller list. One of her most recent book was just on that list, I guess it was last year. And Mariam is one of the leading kind of prison abolitionists in North America. She's been kind of a younger version in some ways of Angela Davis, if that name means anything to young folks listening. And so Mary was this phenomenal organizer. She was part of our group. Another person who was part of our grouping is one of my closest friends who is actually the godfather of my son. And I'm the godfather of his son by the guy by the name of David Austin, who wrote a book a couple years ago that won the Castus to Last America's Prize, which is one of the kind of top literary awards in the Americas in the hemisphere. It's called Fear of a Black Nation. And then Dave was also a kind of a really significant organizer on campus at that time. And there was kind of a bit of a renasauce, almost a black renasauce happening at that time in North America. You think of people like figures like Spike Lee. Spike Lee was kind of in his heyday at that time. So we were part of that moment, I would say, and we were intent on changing the world, trying to trying to transform the McGill space and trying to affect change in the Montreal community. We were involved in tutoring programs and various other kind of community endeavors. We were pushing the University to change curriculum and the like, and we were also trying to kind of raise people's consciousness about issues. So I was the chief librarian at the Black Students Network at the time. So we were interested in disseminating information and trying to introduce people to different kinds of ideas that would challenge power, challenge capital. So those were some things that I was kind of consumed with, I guess, at that time. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:17:55 How about the campus radio experience in CK UT? It's at 90.3. I didn't start listening to it until I heard there was a show on there called Dikes on Mike's. And I said, I've got to give this a listen. And I did. And I discovered campus radio, but we're getting into the later part of the mid ninety s to late 90s really a great time for campus radio. I think as time goes on, digital really begins to infringe on campus stations. But what did you get out of the experience and what did you leave behind? Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:18:27 Well, campus community radio was such a gift. Our Marvel at its ability to build community and Marvel at its ability to unearth stories that wouldn't be told were not for community radio. I marveled its ability to be open to all kinds of different ways of seeing and being. Community radio was such an education for me. I feel as if I earned a PhD. It was such an immersive experience. And I learned so much about music and learned so much about organizing. I learned so much about listening, like just listening to people. It was such a diverse community, right? This is a community comprised of students, but also community members from dozens and dozens of different ethnoracial communities, different religious communities, different gendered communities. In many ways, it was a place that served as a center for political organizing in Montreal. It was a place that brought all these kind of disparate elements together and still managed to create magic. It was just a really for me, at least, it was such an enriching experience in terms of what I left behind. I always think it's important to demystify media, and I think it's always important to bring as many people in and offer people the opportunity to participate and to gain access to the power that is media. So we were always intent on, again, just creating space for different folks to be able to come in and to feel welcomed and to feel affirmed. We tried to create a space where people would feel as if they could assert themselves, where they could learn more about their own abilities, their own capacity to create, to create art, and to collaborate as well. But again, I think what I was trying to do wasn't necessarily unique. I was standing on the shoulders of the folks who had helped to create CK UT, and so I was trying to carry on that tradition. If there's anything that I left, hopefully I left that spirit, that kind of Democratic spirit, I suppose. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:20:58 What brought you back to Ottawa? Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:20:59 Well, I came back to Ottawa, so I was away from Ottawa for about ten years, so I was in Montreal between about 1989 and 1993, 94, and then I was in between. I was in Auto and Kingston, actually between 94 and 96. I had a great job, actually, in Kingston, but really a place called the Kingston Global Community Center. That really helped me to get my job eventually at CKUT. After leaving CKUT in 1999, I was in Toronto and I lived in Toronto until about 2006. In 2006, I came back to Auto for a job. Actually, I had been freelancing and I had been a proverbial pinch hitter at CBC. I had done a number of different local and regional and national programs on radio and TV. I had done a program called CounterSpin, which was like a political debate program. And I had filled in on a show called Metro Morning, which was the morning show in Toronto for CBC. And I had done some national shows, as it happens, and I did the Current and a number of other programs and a job came up in Ottawa to be the host of the drive home show for CBC show called all in a Day. I think they like the idea that I was from Ottawa. I think that helped me at that moment. They were looking for someone to replace Brent Bambury, who was the host. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:22:38 Oh, really? Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:22:39 Yeah. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:22:40 So he did Brave New Waves. I didn't know that he had onto Ottawa. Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:22:43 Yeah. So Brent did Brave New Waves, and then he did Midday for years on. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:22:50 CBC with Valerie Pringle. Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:22:52 With Valerie. Yeah, with Valerie Pringle. And then he was the host beloved host on all in a Day, the afternoon shows. So those are pretty big shoes to fill. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:23:03 I mean, you mentioned a whole bunch of shows, as it happens, the Current were big shows. I was on Counter Spin at one point, just once or twice, I think, with Abby Lewis. But they brought me on to discuss wrestling and why people should be watching it or not watching it. Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:23:18 Oh, nice. Okay. Well, you were with a real host then. You didn't get the bhost me, but no, but when I was there, I was the understudy. I was kind of like the I guess you call it, almost like a permanent guest host. So after Abby left, there was a woman named Sharon Lewis who followed him, and then Carol Off followed Sharon. And in the competition for that job, Carol won and I finished second. So I was Carol's understudy for CounterSpin for about a year or two, I think it was. And that's when I got that job, working on all of the day in Ottawa. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:23:58 Yeah. Well, a pretty good job, too, during afternoons. Is there a little bit more pressure because you're back in your hometown where you spend so many years and let's face it, a lot of people know you. Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:24:08 I'm not sure how many people knew me. Like some people knew me, I guess my friends, members of my community. But I wouldn't say I was in any way a household name. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:24:19 I knew you. I wasn't even from Ottawa, but I knew you. Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:24:23 Yeah, but that's not like I'm saying. Yeah, I suppose so. But no, most people didn't know me. But I suppose I put a lot of pressure on myself, I think. And of course, you are trying to live up to the person who preceded you. I was trying to not make people forget Brand Bamboo because you can't forget them. But at least I wanted them to respect the work that I did and feel as if I was worthy of the position. Yeah. So I think I probably put a lot of pressure on myself to be a host of some consequence, I suppose, and whether or not I succeeded, that's for the listeners and then for those who observed me to judge, but I certainly enjoyed it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:25:11 I don't want to make you pick between radio and television because I know you do go to television right after. But looking back, how do you look at radio and your time in radio? Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:25:20 Well, as I said, I'm a radio file. I must say that I was probably a radio snob. I used to think that TV anchors were stupid. Actually, I always kind of thought that radio hosts were intellectuals, and I was probably striving to be an intellectual. And so I thought that if you had critical thinking skills and you did radio and if you look good, but you didn't necessarily have much to say than you did television. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:25:54 We're talking about Max keeping here, right? Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:25:57 No comment. No. And Max was very, very generous to me always. You know, I was very, very appreciative of the support that Max provided me. But no, I think doing TV or rather becoming an anchor disabused me of a lot of the misconceptions that I had about the position. And I realized that it takes a lot of skill and it takes a lot of smarts, and you have to be really kind of quick on your feet. It's another skill set that's required to do television well, and I'm not sure if I did TV as well as my colleague, who was my co host, Lucy Allen Bernabel, who is much more of a natural on television. I required a lot more work, and I've always been a kind of a work in progress, I would say on television. Yeah. So I think TV is probably my more natural role, probably is as a host on radio. I would say I think I probably feel most at ease and most comfortable there in my element. I love the freedom of radio. I love the intimacy. In some ways there's a certain kind of anonymity that one can get on radio that obviously one does not get on television. What I would say, though, is that I recognize the power of television and as a black man in Canada and as a kid who grew up in this society at a certain .1 of the reasons why I moved from radio to television was because I recognized the importance and the power of having a black person in the position of anchor, like anchoring the CBC, Ottawa News and the nation's capital. I knew that was important. It was important for a lot of other kids, racialized kids, but not just racialized kids. I think it was important, and I don't want to exaggerate my importance, but I'm saying symbolically, like what I represent. I think it was important for not just black folks, but all folks to see that it was possible for someone who is not from the dominant white community to be in that position. Part of the reason why I decided to move from radio to TV was politics, and I thought about it. It was intentional. I thought it was important to occupy that space and for people to see me in that space on a daily basis. And also part of it was for young people. I understood that young people don't listen to or at least at that time weren't listening to radio in the same way that they would pay attention to television. And I have been a youth worker. So when I was in Toronto. I worked as a youth worker in high schools in Toronto, and I've always had a lot of young people have always been really important to me in terms of my own practice. So at that moment, I felt as if it was important to be there for those young folks. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:29:16 You can do radio, and nobody would know that the person who is talking to them is black. But then all of a sudden, when you are on television and you are in a big TV station, CBO, Channel Four, that's a big transmitter. And yes, I was still consuming over the air back then, but that represents most of Eastern Ontario and down through the Ottawa Valley. That's the channel. You're right. It was important for you to get there. And I will tell the story that in the summer of 2006 or 2007, actually, I went to Montebello, to the family house, turned on the TV we had over the air. We got a big antenna. And there you were doing the 06:00 news. And I said, oh, look, that's what's happened to Adrian. I had no idea that you'd gone through any of the stuff that we've talked to up to now. And then I said, this will be interesting. So then I went and made some popcorn. And then I came back to watch you do your newscast. Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:30:13 And I was terrible. I was not very good, but people were very generous and people were very supportive and allowed me to develop. When I started working on I remember actually, I think the first night I did a newscast, I came back home and my wife was saying, Adrian, you were awful. Why are you so stiff? I went back and I tried to change my demeanor, I suppose, on air the next night, and the boss calls me in the next morning and says, Agent, why are you moving around so much? Right. So I took my time. I had to learn my way on television and become comfortable with just how to be, I suppose, in that space. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:31:09 I'm not a TV guy, okay? Even now, I mean, you and I are on camera and stuff, but I don't put anything that I record up in a video formation. But it makes me think of the people who are really comfortable on TV and how they made it look so easy. And I think of is it J. J. Clarke, who used to do the weather on. Yes, he made it look so easy. And of course, we all could have been TV stars. Did you ever try out for you can't do that on television? Because I get the feeling that everybody our age in Ottawa did fly out. But you can't do that on television. And all you had to do was be slimed, I think, in the auditions. Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:31:44 Yeah, I didn't. But one of my closest childhood friends did. And she went on to become a I wouldn't say Hollywood star, but she had a Hollywood career. Claya Scott, who was actually one of the stars of if you remember the show Intelligence on CBC. It was a much loved show that ended too soon. But Clay was a product, if you can't do that on television and grew up in my neighborhood in West End, Ottawa. Yeah, a lot of folks. Who else was on, I think Alanis Morris said, if I remember correctly, was on you can't do that on a very important institution, actually in the city. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:32:24 If your memory is being jogged, this is the theme song from the Ottawa production of You Can't Do That On Television, which had a pretty good run on Nickelodeon in the late eighties and nineties. In just a second, we're going to talk to Adrian about his time at the CBC, making changes in the workplace, how change evolves, Twitter and getting on fulltime as a journalism professor at Carleton University. And what does the future of journalism look like from the perspective of students? There's more. There's always more at soundoffpodcast.com. Sarah Burke (VO) 00:32:58 Transcription for the Sound Off Podcast is powered by Poddin. Your podcast is an SEO goldmine. We help you to dig out. Start your free trial now at Poddin.io. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:33:09 So a small production footnote: If you're hearing multiple beeps over the next few minutes, that happened because while we were recording, I hung up my landline that we had connected at the beginning of the recording. And then Adrian's cordless phone started to beep, basically saying, put me back on the hook. I mention this because I don't want you to stop the podcast because you think something in your home is beeping at you. All right, let's roll this thing. Tara Sands (VO) 00:33:33 The Sound Off Podcast with Matt Cundill. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:33:37 I'm going to assume, by the way, that by the time we got to the end of the decade that you did loosen up a little bit and things got a little bit more comfortable for you on this side. Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:33:45 I would say uncomfortable now for sure. I think you can do different kinds of television, can't you? I'm probably most at ease when I'm doing the interview show, I suppose that I do. It's a weekly show called Our Ottawa. And there I feel completely in my element. I think still maybe as an anchor, maybe I was thinking a little bit too much at times. And again, you just have to sometimes just let yourself go and just be in the moment and not overthink things. And I've learned how to do that. But it's been something that I've had to struggle with. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:34:29 I really enjoyed the interview you did with Ken, the General Grant. Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:34:32 Oh, wow. Okay. That was a long time ago. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:34:34 I told you, I watched this stuff. Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:34:38 Okay. That was a long time ago. Yeah. He was a lot of fun. And of course, like most Ottoans, I grew up listening to the General on CFRA. It was a thrill, actually, to meet him when you're able to meet some of your childhood? I wouldn't say he was a hero necessarily, but he was someone who was in our home every morning. So that was really an honor and it was a thrill. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:35:09 You mentioned that when you started and why you went to do television was to be a little bit of a change agent so that people would see that the face of Ottawa isn't necessarily white. But when you started the CBC and now we've gone through 14 years of it, has media really changed a lot? It still feels very white? Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:35:32 Yeah, I think it has changed. I'm going to amend something a little bit. I'm going to answer your question, but I went to television for two reasons. One, for the reason that I articulated, but also I think it's sometimes important to embrace discomfort. I think it's important to the cliche is to get out of your comfort zone. And so the idea of anchoring a show scared me. Right. I often try to do things that scare me because life has taught me that it's good for me and it's good for me to kind of try things that make me nervous. So that was also part of it, that I wanted to challenge myself a little bit and get out of my proverbial comfort zone in terms of media change. Yeah, I think there has been some change. The change didn't happen just by spontaneous generation. The change happened because there were a lot of dedicated people who pushed for change. And I can tell you within a place, for example, like CBC, there were a number of people who pushed the envelope and who were willing to take some risks and who were willing to speak out and speak up about the stasis within the organization, who were willing to say that the organization had to walk the talk and couldn't just purport to be a diverse space, but had to be a diverse space. And so what that meant was making some fundamental changes in its structure. Again, not everything has changed and there needs to be a lot more movement. I would say that certainly within CBC, which is the organization that I am most familiar with, there have been some changes for the better, but the changes happen because of struggle. The truth is that there has been and there was resistance to change. Sometimes it got a little messy and people were hurt. And to this day, people still are being hurt in various ways. Not everything has been when it comes to race matters, if that's what we're focusing on. Not everything has been resolved. But when you look at, for example, the representation on air of Indigenous voices on CBC, there's been a material change. The CBC that we listen to today is far different from the CBC that you and I knew back in the mid 80s when you just consider some of the programming and some of the programmers on CBC. I'm heartened by that, and I'm optimistic for the future. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:38:23 So when there is change and I think when everybody should look around at your media organization, does change happen from within with speaking up, or is it about creating policies? What is it really that is really at the core of creating change? Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:38:40 Well, that's a huge question. That's an existential question. That's a big question. I think it's all kinds of things. Right. Like it's the external, it's the internal. We are influenced by world events. We're influenced by the domestic scene. We are all influenced by George Floyd. George Floyd happened in Minneapolis, Minnesota. It didn't happen in Brussels, it didn't happen in Paris, France, but it had an influence on all of those spaces, in spite of the fact that it happened in Minneapolis, Minnesota. So again, we are part of the world. And when the world changes, well, we are affected and we change, too. But also change comes from people and change, yes, change can come from policy. But what I would say is that power usually only responds to pressure. So institutions, generally speaking, they want to maintain the status quo. And the reason why they want to maintain the status quo is because if you are in power, why change? That like change is uncomfortable. It is disconcerting for people. And sometimes it requires sacrifice, and it requires also a willingness to recognize the value and the stories of others. When you live in a society which has privileged certain stories over others and which has suggested that one story is paramount, it's difficult to conceive of a world in which that story is displaced. Right. It's hard. There's no recipe for it. And sometimes change happens in a flash. I was telling some people that in 1989, I was in Czechoslovakia just months before the Velvet Revolution. I was with God. You would remember cream, Alzheimer, so Cream and I cream was one of my closest friends. And Cream and I went to Europe for six weeks that summer, and he had a family in Czech, Levakia, which is now the Czech Republic. And we were behind the Iron Curtain just months before everything changed. And during that summer, no one would have predicted what happened a few months later. No one could have predicted that Vaslav Habel would emerge as being one of the kind of eminent Democratic figures of the 20th century at that moment. No one would have predicted that. And yet in the space of a couple of weeks, everything just changed. Right. We couldn't have prepared for that. When you and I were attending school, the notion that there could be a Russian player who would be the captain of an NHL team, it would have been impossible for us to fathom that or even difficult to fathom a Swede. Right. Becoming the captain of a team because Swedes used to be talked about in disparaging ways by Canadian hockey commentators. Right. They weren't seen as being leadership material. Right. They were like eggs when they went into a corner. I think that was the term that Harold Ballard used to describe Ingah Hamstrom. If I remember correctly, change can happen very quickly. My first year in University, Nelson Mandela was in jail. We could not have predicted. A few months later, like in 1990, like all of a sudden he was free. Change is something that's very difficult to predict, and it can happen in myriad ways. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:42:52 Did you get any feedback from your appearance on Canada land? I don't want to say blowback because it could have been positive, too, but from inside the CBC, because I know it's quite difficult. You were speaking up a lot of people. It's easy not to speak up. Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:43:08 I spoke up. But I'm always a little bit cautious with this because I think I'm fortunate to have been exposed to a fair amount of history in terms of just my own parents, my family, things I grew up reading, whatever the case might be. So I'm very aware of the struggles that people have engaged in to make space for people like myself. Right. I know the kind of abuse and the way in which people suffered physically. Right. Years ago, I went down to the Southern United States on a number of occasions, and I was in Mississippi, and I interviewed a guy named Bob Moses. And Robert Moses was one of the leading figures of Snick, the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. And he went into the Southern United States and tried to organize people and get black folks to vote. And it was dangerous. Like Bob Moses was beaten by people, people of his generation. They were killed like people of SNCC. If you remember those three stick workers, the whole Mississippi burning like those three SNCC workers. Cheney. Oh, my gosh. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:44:34 Schwerner, Goodman and Schwerner. Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:44:37 Cheney, Goodman and Schwerner. I'm sorry. Who were murdered standing up for justice. So my speaking up a little bit, what I was doing was so insignificant, so that when you kind of recognize that people are taking real risks, like risks that can result in death, risks that can result in broken bones and concussions. Right. And real harm and disability and people being paralyzed and losing eyes, like having their eyes gouged out. Right. That happened. Right. So I'm aware of that. So I didn't think it was something. But you have to kind of keep some perspective with these things. Was there much feedback? Yeah, there was some feedback. Yeah, for sure. There was feedback. There were people within the CBC who were annoyed or who were angry. I didn't hear a lot of that directly, but I know it was there. But I'd also say that there was a lot of support and there was a lot of positive feedback, and there were people who were inspired. Maybe it helped to galvanize some people and gave some people some courage. Yeah. I think part of our role always is to make space. Tony Morrison, the Nobel laureate, you know, said that whenever you occupy a position of power, wherever you are, it's your job to free somebody else. It's your job to free other people wherever you are, whatever position you are. It could be as a landscaper, landscaping organization. It could be in a radio station, it could be on a hockey team. Right. Your job always is to try to free other people. So to allow people to fully be themselves, to allow them to kind of fully express their humanity. I've always taken like, that's part of my job. Right. It's just what we're supposed to do. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:46:48 Responsibility. Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:46:49 Yeah, responsibility. Accountability. And again, what I should also say is I should be careful because we don't all have to do the same thing. Right. And there are different ways of contributing. And not everyone has to be Matt Cundill. Right. Not everyone has to be me. Not everyone has to be Bob Moses. Not everyone has to be Nick Discom. Like I'm saying, it requires all kinds of different people in order to produce a good and just world. Right. Which is ultimately, I think, why we're here. Right. We're here hopefully for people to be human and to be able to realize their full potential as human beings. I don't know. Like, I'm thinking of a sports example, like Kurt Flood, the St. Louis Cardinals outfielder who basically lost his career because he was fighting for labor rights of baseball players. He was one of the top defensive outfielders of his generation because he chose to speak up, because he felt that baseball players are human beings and they are workers. They deserve to have choices. Right. He suffered as a result of that choice that he made. When I think of Colin Kaepernick. Yeah, Colin Kaepernick as well. Like Colin Kaepernick, he started the Super Bowl for the San Francisco 40 Niners. Right. At the time, he wasn't at the very top tier of quarterbacks, but he was a solid quarterback in the NFL who would have had many more years of his career. And he lost that opportunity because he felt it was incumbent upon him to have his voice heard even like someone like and again, I don't think she's gotten the attention that she deserved. But Martina Navatalova, in her own way, was a very important person as a woman who was willing to speak up about her sexuality at a time when that was dangerous. It was dangerous for Martina to be herself. And yet she insisted on being herself. And she inspired so many people as a result of that and again, helped to make space in her profession. Right. She made space for people. Those are examples of people who, again, took risks. And in order for us to have a world where people can just be free, we need people taking risks. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:49:42 You're a good Twitter follow, by the way. Do you like Twitter? Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:49:46 Yeah, I do like Twitter. It's interesting. I've made some good friends. For example, someone who's become a very good friend of mine. Her name is Lulla Shanai, and Lola is a Nigerian novelist. She runs this fantastic book festival that I had the privilege of attending a couple of years ago in Lagos called the Ake Literary Festival. I met Lola on Twitter, and we've become like almost brother and sister, like, close, close friends to the point where she invited me to Nigeria. She knows my family. She's a great support to my kids. And that's because of Twitter. Right. I've met a lot of all kinds of people. I feel as if it's a place where I've been able to and I don't think we've been able to build community and communities. It's a space where you're able to share information and different kinds of information. It's a space where you can be many different kinds of people at the same time, and you can encourage certain kinds of debate and conversation. I'm probably naturally a person that likes to facilitate conversation. I like debate. Like, there's a reason why I was the librarian at the Black Students Network, because I've always liked sharing stuff that I have, whether it's music that's been introduced to me, you want to pass it on, or whether they're interesting books or whether they're interesting art, whatever the case might be. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:51:27 I love the articles. Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:51:28 Yeah. So I think that's always something which Twitter allows one to do. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:51:35 You'll be pleased to know, by the way, that the fourth biggest country for downloads on this podcast is Nigeria. Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:51:42 Really interesting. Okay. Wow, that's fantastic. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:51:46 English speaking broadcasters looking for some broadcast information. Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:51:50 Have you been to Nigeria? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:51:51 I have not, but I have a standing invite shadow to Sound City and Abuja. Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:51:56 Abuja? Yeah, the capital. You should go. It's an amazing country. Like, Nigerians are some of the most brilliant, industrious, creative, courageous people around. Right. Nigeria is a country with such abundance, but it's also a country that suffered a lot, and the people have suffered a lot. In spite of the resources at its disposal, Nigerians have had to sacrifice a lot in order to enjoy some of the freedoms that you and I take for granted. And Unfortunately, Nigeria has produced some of the world's greatest artists, some of the world's greatest writers. When you think of some of the great scientists, when you think of all of the doctors that Nigeria has produced for many parts of the world. So it's a remarkable country that I think sometimes doesn't get enough attention. And I would encourage people to visit. I really encourage people to visit. It's a fascinating place. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:53:14 I'm a little concerned, though, that you are always tweeting at late night hours. You've got a weird sleep schedule. I know you do? Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:53:21 Yeah. My sister says I have poor sleep hygiene, which is true. But part of it is for years I was working on this thesis. And the only time, really, that I could get a lot done was late at night. So that's part of it. Part of it is also I did the late night shift for about five, six years when the kids were young, I did the 11:00 news. And so invariably, I know you've done late nights, you come back home and you're still wired, you're eating, you're hungry, and you just kind of can't get to bed. After doing that for a number of years. I think that has kind of engendered some bad habits, I suppose. But part of it is just sometimes maybe having too many things to do and trying to squeeze as much time out of the day and night as you can. It's something I need to address because it's not a good thing, but the thesis is done. The thesis is done. So I don't have that excuse anymore. I'm trying not to stay up as late as I have in the past number of years. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:54:38 And now you have evolved into your parents because they were teachers. I know that. You told me that years ago, and now you're a teacher and you're teaching journalism at Carleton University, am I right? Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:54:51 I am, yeah. My parents were quality teachers. I'm not sure if I have of their quality yet. That's something that I aspire to. So maybe in 1015 years, maybe I can approach their level. But I became an adjunct, I guess, professor at Carlton two years ago. And then in July of last year, I was appointed to the faculty. So, yes, I am on the faculty at Carlton, and I'm just really honored to be there. It's an honor and it's a privilege. It's always wonderful, as I'm sure you know, to work with young people or younger people. Not everyone who goes to University is young necessarily, but it's great to work with just students, people who are interested in learning and improving themselves. There's nothing better, really. There's nothing more gratifying than helping someone or providing them with the support they need, again, to realize their potential and then to realize some of their dreams. So, yeah, I'm enormously grateful to have the opportunity. And also, in addition to the teaching, I love to write. I've always loved research, probably too much, because that explains why sometimes my papers were late, I was researching too much. But again, this job allows me the opportunity to conduct research. That's something that I'm really excited about, really looking forward to. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:56:22 When you and I are starting out, we have easy targets. We're going to work for brands. The brand could be the Globe and Mail, it could be the CBC, it could be shown. It could be any number of media brands. But today everybody is a media brand. So what is the view from the perspective of your students to where they're going to go when they graduate? As journalists, I think they're looking in. Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:56:46 A lot of different directions. Obviously, there are some students who are very attractive to the idea of working for an established network like CTV or like Global or like CBC, the legacy media that still has a very powerful draw. And many of our students would be very happy if they spent their entire career at a place like CBC or at a place like the Global Mail or at the National Post, whatever the case might be. I think they're also very cognizant of the fact that it's a dynamic industry and that things are changing very quickly. I think they see other options as well for themselves. They see a lot of these kind of new startup media outlets that are doing some really interesting things. Great work. Like, I think of, for example, the Narwhal. Right. Or I think of the lodging or you think of Canada land. Right. You think of all these different spaces that didn't exist ten or 15 years ago, but now are having a significant impact on the discourse. So I think that many young people are attracted to that idea. Some, for example, also, though, are attracted to this notion of creating new forms of local journalism. I had a student in my class just this past semester who wants to go back to his small town in Eastern Ontario, and he wants to provide a service to his people, to his community. It's very important to him that there be a locally based news outlet in his town. Right. So he's committed to bringing that. He's committed to that idea. And there are some, for example, who some people are just interested in creating their own podcasts, shrinking it out on their own. So there's not just one path. Our students are well, first of all, they're keen to tell stories, they're keen to engage, but they're also aware that they have to be versatile and they have to be open. You're talking earlier in our conversation a lot about change. You have to be open to change. The only thing that we know will occur is change. And I think our students are not diluted into thinking that, like maybe a previous generation, that they could work for one organization for their entire career. They know that they might change paths numerous times during their working life. And so I think they're prepared they're better prepared for that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:59:47 What we're doing now, this podcast thing, what do you think of it? Adrian Harewood (Guest) 00:59:51 Oh, I love it. Yeah, I love podcasts. I've always loved it. And I listened to a lot of podcasts. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:00:01 I love it as a medium. Adrian Harewood (Guest) 01:00:03 Yeah, absolutely. Again, I just think it provides you with there's such flexibility, there's such freedom. There's an immediacy about it, there's a relevance. It's now, and there's so many different ways of doing it. My kids love podcasts. They're listening to podcasts all the time. One of the more recent podcasts they've kind of become fans of is this podcast about Greek mythology. They are nine and eleven. They love it. There's another podcast to listen to that's helped them to become debaters. There's another podcast where they're learning how to improvise. It's an improvisational show for kids. There's such a range of possibilities in the podcasting world. It's thrilling actually. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:00:57 Adrian, thanks a lot for being on the podcast. I really appreciate it. It's great to catch up. Adrian Harewood (Guest) 01:01:02 Matt, it has been too long, and thanks so much for persisting and inviting me on. It's a real honor to be part of this conversation and congratulations on all that you've done and are doing. As they say, keep on keeping on, my friend. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:01:02 And you. Tara Sands (VO) 01:01:19 The Sound off Podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski. Social media by Courtney Krebsbach. Another great creation from the Soundoff Media Company. There's always more at soundoffpodcast.com.

There's a lot of potential to make money, or lose it, in Las Vegas. In fact, that's pretty much the whole point of the city. Most people head down there to try their hand at the slots, play a few rounds of blackjack, take in some spectacular shows, or bet it all on a high-stakes poker match. But you don't see many people betting on the city itself. Jeff Walker is an exception to that rule. A former radio personality in Calgary, Winnipeg and Edmonton, Jeff has turned his voice and experience into a podcast all about Vegas. The Jeff Does Vegas podcast gives listeners a comprehensive guide to the city he fell in love with, from trip reports to restaurant reviews and attraction recommendations. It's become his most successful venture yet, and continues to grow to this day. In this episode, I speak to Jeff about his long and illustrious radio career, during which he found himself in quite a few "interesting" situations, as well as its rather abrupt end. We also talk about how he fell in love with Vegas, why he decided to start podcasting, how he built up his show, and the effect 2 years of COVID restrictions had on his show- A show which mainly revolved around him flying from Canada to Vegas 8 times a year. Yeah, it wasn't pretty. With that being said, now that he can head back to Sin City, the podcast is back with a vengeance. You can check it out on his website, or listen to his latest episode below: You can also follow Jeff on Twitter, Instagram or Facebook for more updates. Transcript: Tara Sands (VO) 00:00:01 The Sound Off podcast. The podcast about broadcast with Matt Cundill... Starts now. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:11 This week I'm going to have a delightful conversation with Jeff Walker, who's worked in Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton, and most recently, traffic reporting for the Canadian Traffic Network in Calgary. I connected with him on social media a few years ago when we got to talking about Winnipeg and his show, the Jeff In Vegas podcast. Jeff has a hit on his hands, and he does it just by speaking passionately about something he loves to do. And that's going to Vegas. We talk a lot about his time in radio in Western Canada. And yes, we got long winded, but that's what podcasts are for, right? Jeff Walker joins me from the home studio of the Jeff In Vegas Podcast in Calgary. Lochlin Cross is to blame for a lot of things. Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:00:55 Yeah, I'm not going to disagree with you on that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:58 How do you know him and why are we talking about him? Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:01:01 Loch was my PD when I was at K97 for a brief, not a brief moment. He was there for like a year-ish while I was there and then he was not. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:12 Yeah, 2006 to 2008. Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:01:17 Yeah, that sounds about right. Yeah. Nothing but trouble, that guy. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:23 And he'll be the first to admit it. Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:01:25 Oh, yeah, I know. I love him. Love him like a brother, but nothing but trouble. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:28 What's your connection to Winnipeg? Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:01:30 I'm born and raised. I'm a Winnipeg born and raised boy. That was home for a very long time. I lived in Winnipeg until 2000, when I then moved to- Well I briefly had a hot six months in Vancouver doing overnight at Z95, which was just an incredible experience. And then after that when I realized you can't live in Vancouver on $18,000 a year, even in 1998, I found my way back to Winnipeg and then was there until 2000 when I made my way to Regina. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:02:04 Does that mean you got to work with Eric Samuels? Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:02:06 I sure did. Eric Samuels was the guy that hired me, which was amazing. Eric was so cool to work for and was such a good PD and so supportive and took a chance on this 22 year old kid from Winnipeg who had never held down a full time gig at that point on air, and stuck me in the overnights on Z95, which was again, just like- that was a once in a lifetime experience. Like I said, take this kid and stick them in a major market and put them on overnights and say, okay, be on the radio, do your thing. And yeah, he was fantastic to work with. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:02:47 What did you learn from him? Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:02:50 Oh, man. Learned how to have fun on the radio. Eric was big on that. Eric was one of the only PDs that I ever worked for, or worked with, who would not I don't want to say tell it like it is, but would tell it like it is to other departments. I'll never forget being in a meeting with him and not like a meeting, but just having a conversation and a sales guy walking in and saying, got this great idea for something for a giveaway. And it was like some goofy, like meat. And he kind of looked at the sales guy and went, we're a CHR station, 18 to 25. Why are we giving away meat? And the sales guy just was so blown away by the fact that he wasn't willing to accept money, if that makes sense. And he was one of the only PDS that I ever saw that did that. And so I kind of learned from him. It's like, yeah, this radio thing can be a lot of fun. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:03:43 What were you doing between 93 and 95 that led you to the what is that? The National Institute. What is that? Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:03:50 Oh, man, you Googled. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:03:52 Yeah, I definitely Googled. What were you doing? What were you learning? Where was this? Where is this place? Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:03:56 So I graduated high school in 1993. Silver Heights Collegiate no longer exists in the city of Winnipeg. And then, despite everybody's advice, I decided to go to the National Institute of Broadcasting. Everybody told me, you should go to do Red River. You should do creative communications at Red River College, which I did eventually end up doing. But National Institute of Broadcasting was Paul McCray, who had taken over the business from his dad, and they were downtown in the Exchange District. Albert McDermott was where it was right upstairs from what used to be the Fabulous Futon Factory at the time. Those ads, if you're a Winnipegor and you grew up in the mid 90s, you absolutely know all about the Fabulous Futon Factory. And yeah, I went there and took what they called their broadcast arts program, which was a one year program, a radio and TV. I had no desire to get into television, none whatsoever. Radio was always kind of where I wanted to be. And yeah, I went in there and did their program, and they had a cable FM station at the time so you could pull some air shifts and get some experience. And yeah, I helped out with the music library and that kind of stuff. That was where I went. And from there, I kind of learned that that was probably not the greatest educational decision in my life, but I still learned some stuff. And I got to put together some tapes and meet some people, and it gave me an opportunity to kind of do something and then at least have something on the resume that would get me through the door of a radio station to do some stuff. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:05:36 I'm having these flashbacks to cable FM. So the cable company would leave a cable and you plug the cable into your stereo, and then you get all these additional Wacky frequencies, and then, of course, your local station appears on different frequencies and nothing seems to match. And it was confusing. And why did we do that? Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:05:53 I have no idea. I just remember convincing my dad to go to Radio Shack to buy the cable splitter little thing that you screwed the coax onto the end of, and it split off so that he could connect it to the antenna on the back of his amplifier so that they could listen to me when I was, quote, unquote on the air or on the cable, as it were. And somewhere I still have a T shirt and a sweatshirt from that radio station somewhere in my house, because that's what radio people do. Right. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:06:24 And you still did the Red River thing? Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:06:27 Absolutely. Yeah, I did. So after it just wasn't working for me and really wasn't managing to find anything that was going to turn into anything. And everybody I kept talking to said, you got to do creative communications at Red River College. So I think having already done NIB and already having a little bit of experience, help me with the Kreecom thing, because it was a very difficult program to get into. They only brought in 50 students a year, two classes at 25, I think it was. And there was a waiting list, and it was kind of my parents saying, okay, you either need to get a job or go to school, or you're going to have to start paying rent. And I wanted to go to school and get this sorted out. So I did the creative communications thing and absolutely did not regret it, but I wished I had done it sooner. It was an amazing program. It was an amazing experience. I got to work at the campus radio station, which was just in house closed circuit the second year that I was there, actually manage the campaign station, which was a lot of fun. And I learned a lot about how to put together because we were doing promotions for the station and production and running it like a real radio station, which was what I wanted to do. And yeah, it was an amazing experience. Met some great people, and a lot of people out of that program went on to be very successful working all over the place. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:07:47 That program, by the way, is still going really strong today. And I'm not sure that they're necessarily turning out radio people in so much as they are just turning out people who can do social media and can do film and video and podcast. And I've been in there a few times, and I think on the last go around, I was on the committee to help work with the curriculum. So I know they're doing some great stuff there. Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:08:09 Yeah. And it always has been like that. I mean, even back in the day, off the top of my head, I can't think of the names now, but they would rattle off names of people that have gone through the program and had been involved and graduated. And it was people that were working in every facet of media. And I majored in public relations. You had the choice of doing advertising, journalism or public relations. I didn't want to do journalism. That was way over my head, and I had zero desire to have any involvement in it. Advertising was not really for me, but I always kind of foresaw myself going more so into promotions and radio. It was something I was always really interested in. So I thought the public relations thing would be a great way to go. And it was I mean, it definitely helped me. It helped with my writing. It helped with me kind of learning how to communicate and be a better communicator when they would rattle off, like I say, names of people that were working in all these different places all across Canada and around the world, people that have gotten major jobs in the US and overseas. It really was an incredible program. And it makes sense that they would have evolved it over the years as it grew and as the school grew and as the industry changed, it made perfect sense. They were always bringing in great instructors and people that really knew what they were doing and were really plugged into the industry. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:09:26 Okay, so we're already very deep into this podcast. And you still haven't escaped from Winnipeg? Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:09:31 No, honestly, Winnipeg was home for me. I mean, my family's there. I still have family in Winnipeg. And all the people I graduated high school with, there's very few of us that actually have left the city and moved on. Winnipeg always was. And I don't know what it is about the city, but it was always this place where it seemed that nobody ever really moved too far away from where they grew up. Even my parents, my grandparents lived in the same house on the corner of King Edward nests for 50 years. And my parents never moved far away from where they grew up. And most of my friends, I mean, a lot of my friends live around the corner down the street from their parents and where they grew up. So I never really, in my head, never really completely saw myself leaving Winnipeg, I guess. And then the opportunity to go to Vancouver came up, and it was like, wow, this is a big culture shock and a big change. But, I mean, that happened after already spending some time working in Winnipeg and doing some stuff. One of my first gigs was CJOB, believe it or not, reading the news overnights. Ken Kilcullen hired me. He was the PD at the time and brought me in, stuck me in a studio on the basement, said, Read this news copy. And I did. And just like, okay, let's get you in doing some overnight board oping and reading the news. And that was that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:11:00 Yes. Those downstairs Studios at 930 Portage Avenue classic. Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:11:05 If the walls in that building could talk, they would have some ridiculous stories. And it was weird because it was a building that I always kind of wanted to end up in and work in. And I had that opportunity and it was really cool to finally do so. And, yeah, starting off at CJOB, which wasn't initially where I wanted to be, I wanted to be in the basement with the cool kids in the Rock station. Right. And not upstairs getting reamed out by Vic Grant on a weekly basis over word pronunciation. That guy never slept. I don't think he ever slept. If you fucked up a Newsread at 330 in the morning, that hotline rang five minutes later and he was telling you what you did wrong and that was that. It was so bizarre. It was very odd. Yeah. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:11:50 Vic ran that a particular way. He ran it well, there were standards. I don't think he was too into the social media ideas that I brought to him, but overall, yeah, he was up and he was engaged with that thing. Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:12:06 As I say, it was the most bizarre thing. I don't think in all my years of radio I ever worked anywhere like that where, as I say, if you screwed something up at any hour of the day, he knew and you got a phone call, and if you didn't get a phone call immediately, you got a phone call Monday morning from him saying, I heard that newscast that you did at 330 or 04:00 in the morning and you messed this up and we need to talk about it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:12:32 I think after that he would make you disappear for a week or two and then you could go back to doing the reading a week later. Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:12:39 Yeah, the overnight maybe you just board off this week and we'll try you next week again, you do some writing and maybe cut some tape for us and then we'll see about getting you back on. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:12:51 So already you've done 680 CJ, you've done Z 95 in Vancouver. Those are two really big radio stations that you would have a reason to be nervous about what happened next. Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:13:04 I kind of made this weird progression from CJOB downstairs. I did spend some time at the Rock station before. It was, I think it was Power 97 at that point, because for a while there was just straight up classic rock 97 five, which was again, I'm this 19 year old kid working on a rock station, which was a classic rock station like my dad's music, which was kind of bizarre. I spent a little bit of time there during the Scruff Connors years and the Carter Brown years, and I had Marley Callahan as my PD at one point. While I was there, I went through that interesting experience of finding out my boss had been fired without knowing about it kind of thing. I phoned to talk to Carter Brown at one point and found out that he had been replaced by Morley Callaghan. That was so odd. That was kind of my first weird wake up call in radio. Yeah. I went from there to Z 95 in Vancouver, and, as I say, realized that I couldn't survive on $18,000 a year. And I also discovered I really liked Sunshine, which in Vancouver after the summer ended, there was not a lot of that. And so I thought, you know what? I got to get back to Winnipeg, which was home. I mean, it was an opportunity to land back on my feet, move back in with the family, do that whole kind of thing. And so I went back to do weekends and overnights at Hot 103 at that point, which was so much fun. We were downtown on the top of the building by the convention center, which was kind of cool, and it was Top 40. So that, again, making that move from rock to Top 40 was a little weird. It made more sense for me to be on the Top 40 station, but I do remember Eric Samuels telling me, Jeff, you have to learn how to say Spice Girls without sounding like you're angry about it, because I did. Here's the Price Girls on Zed 95.3. Jeff, you sound angry about it. I get it. It's not Led Zeppelin, but you know what? That's what we play. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:14:57 I think there was a convenient pipeline between Zed 95 and Hot 103 and Winnipeg. That standard would sort of ship people back and forth for some training. So did you get to work with Sharon Taylor? Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:15:07 No. Well, I did eventually. When I made the move to Hot 103, Hot 103 was still owned by the Craigs. And so Lisa Akazuki was my program director at that point, and Jeff Leek was the music director while I was there. And that was again, it was a really great environment to be a part of. We were kind of at that point, we weren't owned by any big companies, so we were sort of this independent little guy on the block having the battles with Q 94 because Q 94 was kind of the big hot ACC at that time. And so we were having those kinds of battles, and it was fun to kind of be that renegade station and the little guy having to fight back against the big guy at that point. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:15:45 So you had another opportunity to leave Winnipeg comes up again, and I think he went to Rocco. Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:15:50 I did, yeah. I got a call New Year's Day from Tom Newton. It was January 1, 2000, and I had applied for a job in Regina. At some point in November, I think I'd gone out there, I'd driven out there and met with Tom and the crew at Rocco, and that was fine. And then it just kind of went away. And then January 1, 2000, Harvard flipped their country station to be a full on CHR station. And they were modeling themselves after Kiss 92 in Toronto. And so I got a phone call from Tom Newton on New Year's day asking me if I'd be interested in coming out to work at Z 99 in Regina. And he woke me up, I think, at about 10:00 in the morning on New Year's Day. Of course, it's the year 2000, so we had been partying the night before, so I was pretty hungover. And it was an interesting conversation, the offer that he originally made. I said no because it wasn't that great of an offer because, like, no, I'm good, thanks. I'm fine where I am. So I think he made a comment, something about sharpening his pencil and coming back to me. And he called me back a little bit later. And in the meantime, Andy James was doing mornings at Hot 103. And so I called Andy because Andy was such a good guy. I bounce stuff off of him every once in a while. And so I phoned him, and I'm like, dude, they're calling me on New Year's Day to offer me this, like, what is going on? And he knew Darryl Holine at the time, and Darryl Hale was like an imaging producer, head guy at Rocco in Regina. And he said, yeah, I kind of had a suspicion they'd be calling. Julien was telling me about these changes that were coming to the competition, and they were making all these changes at Zed to rebrand as a CHR. And then he said to me, he goes, what did he offer you? And I told him, and what did you say? I said, no. What are you crazy? He goes, I don't know who's crazy are you for saying no or them for offering that to you? Because what they were offering me was actually looking back on it. Not awful. And Tom called me back a little bit later, and he had Michael Zappy on the phone with them, too. And they made me an offer. And I was like, yeah, okay, like, when can you be here? And so I was out there by February 2000. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:18:05 And did you bring your bomber shirt with you? And did you survive Regina? Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:18:09 I was greeted with a lot of Saskatchewan rough rider memorabilia, merchandise and was told, you cannot. This was kind of the interesting thing about that building and that place was I was kind of told, you have to be a homeowner. You can't have your own opinion here. You have got to be a home team guy. We cheer for the Riders here. This is rider country. You cannot go on the radio and say, you are a bomber fan. You have to be a rider fan. The bomber gear kind of just stayed hidden in the dresser and did not come out the entire time I lived there. So much like radio gear. I have a closet full of Saskatchewan rough Rider stuff that I haven't worn in a very long time. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:18:54 Well, eventually it will get cold. You'll need to start a fire. Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:18:58 Exactly, yeah. Maybe drive my car off or something along those lines. So, yeah, you're right. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:19:06 You run out of diapers. Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:19:08 Precisely, yeah, exactly. Something I need to wipe up a mess from the dog, whatever it takes. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:19:15 And then you were doing afternoons, you did a lot of music and scheduling, so you come fully equipped at this point. I always think that if you can do afternoons and then you get your hands on the music scheduling system and learn some selector music master that you come equipped enough that you wound up going to Edmonton and progressing even further west. Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:19:33 I did. But here's the interesting thing. Going behind the curtain in the world of radio, I walked away from the Ralco gig. I completely stepped away from it because they were doing this weird thing and looking back on it now, looking where the state of radio is now, without a market voice tracking and all this weird stuff that's going on now that is just sort of being a natural progression of the business. Rocco was kind of very early adopters of that. And I had been pulled off of the afternoon show and was doing music and then doing some voice tracking for out of market stuff for Saskatoon and for Prince Albert and some voice tracking evening stuff for Regina. And it was a very, very weird situation. And they pulled this thing where they were going to have me doing the music for Saskatoon and the guy from Saskatoon doing the music for Vagina. And none of this made any sense. We were busy. They had us out constantly making appearances. And I'm totally okay with the appearance stuff. I get it. It is what it is, right? Radio. That's what it is. They get you out of these events, and it doesn't matter if you're introducing a magician at the local casino or you're hosting the baby crawl race, which, by the way, is one of the most exciting events I did ever host in Regina. But it kind of got to a point where it felt like some of us were being penalized because we didn't have kids or we didn't have families. And it was like, well, Jeff doesn't have kids or things to worry about in the evening, so he can go out and do this. And the next thing you know, you're doing it four nights a week and you're not seeing spending any time at home. So a combination of all these things and the amount of work that was going in, and I had a discussion with my wife and I just said, I can't do this anymore. Like I'm burning out. I'm not happy. I'm stressed. It was starting to affect my life. And my wife just kind of looked at me and said, I would rather you go take a job working retail if it means you're going to be happy than to have you burning out and have it affect us. And so I walked into the boss's office on a Monday morning and I just kind of went, you know what? I'm out. I'm done. I can't do this anymore. They were not extremely understanding about it at first, and eventually kind of came around on it and said, Well, yeah, work out your two weeks, and that will be that. I had nothing to go to. So I did. I went and worked at Best Buy for a while, and it was good to kind of clear the head, right? Like you're not getting phone calls at home, you're not dealing with anything to do with work. It's like you clock out and you're done and that's it. And the people aren't phoning. You going, hey, I can't find these TVs. Where did we stock them? It wasn't like you're getting calls saying, we're short four minutes on the music. Can we add this? Can we do that? So I stepped away and kind of stepped out of it. And then my wife actually got a job offer in Edmonton. She's a speech therapist, as I like to say. She's the one with the real job of the two of us. And so she got an opportunity to go to Edmonton. And Jay Lawrence, who I knew through the Milk prep boards and Milkman and Ottawa and that kind of thing. He was the music director at Kroc in Edmonton at that point. And Kroc was going through some interesting times at that particular juncture in history. Terry, Bill and Steve show had kind of blown up. The radio station was in sort of this weird world of disarray. The program director. I think Terry had been the PD at that point for a little bit, but had, in all of that, had stepped away. There was this weird thing where, like, everybody was on holidays at once. And so I reached out to Jay and I sat down with him and he kind of said, Would you be interested in picking up some shifts? And I said, sure. Which was like three weeks straight of working on Krok and being able to do stuff with them, plus filling in on Big Earl and Cat Country and doing some stuff with that stuff, which was hilarious because I knew nothing about country music. Not a thing, nothing. And it just kind of went from there. It was like, okay, well, I can do some music scheduling and I can do this and I can set up remotes and I can go out and host events. And so, yeah, from there just kind of rolled into a full time gig, and it was great. I loved it there. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:23:53 So in that time between when you left the gig at RollCo, did you ever think about calling the program director at Power 97 in Winnipeg and saying. Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:24:06 Do you have a job I didn't at that point because we were pretty established in Regina already. My wife, as I say, she's the one with the real job. And we've always kind of made decisions on moves. And I mean, radio is one of those things. I just always knew you bounce around, you move around. But at that point, we kind of thought we have to make these decisions based on whether or not she's going to be able to get a job. And Winnipeg, there was just nothing for her at that point. We had already done long distance relationship. She went to school in North Dakota to get her Masters for speech. And so we had done the long distance thing. So at one point, I was living in Regina, she was in Winnipeg, at one point I was in Regina, she was in Grand Forks. And so we just thought, we are not doing that again. We just can't. And so, again, it just kind of came down to I would rather stay here and just ride out, see if maybe the competition will pick me up, if Harvard would pick me up at that point in Regina or if she got this gig, as I say, she got this job in Edmonton. And so we were able to go out there and I thought again, worst case, I can go do retail or go do something just to earn a few Bucks to pay the bills while we're in Edmonton. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:25:23 For the record, I would have hired you. Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:25:28 I appreciate that. Now, 16 years later, I appreciate that. Thank you. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:25:35 In just a second. More fun times as we continue with the tall tales in life at K 97 in Edmonton. And then Jeff jumps to Jack in Calgary and finds himself in a very competitive radio market and back on the air. This is followed by the inevitable because it happens to all of us in radio. Right. As a reminder, there's more. Oh, there's always more@sounduppodcast.com, including a transcription of this episode. Mary Anne Ivison (VO) 00:26:03 Transcription for the The Sound Off podcast powered by Potent. Your podcast is an SEO goldmine. We help you to dig out start your free trial now at Potent. Io. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:26:17 And weird times in 2008 ish at Kroc. I think that incarnation of the Terry Evans Show, I think it had Melissa Wright and another female, Karen Kay. Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:26:29 Yeah, that was probably one of the most interesting times in my radio career. Looking back on it now, the revolving morning show, because we went through prior to Terry coming back, we had Bill Cowan and Jim Jerome were in there. At one point, Ross McLeod was on there. They stuck me on the morning show to try and sort of play Traffic Cop with Bill and Jim. And then at one point, Steve came back and Steve and Jim did not get along at all like the tension in the real world and on the radio was just palpable. And I think that was when Lachlan crossed was the PD at that point. And we were convinced that Steve was going to murder Jim one day. It was insanity. Phil Aubrey was in there at one point on the morning show and then moved to afternoons, I think, before he went back to Winnipeg. It was just this weird revolving door. And yeah. And then Terry came back and we had Melissa Wright and Karen Kay on there. And that just did not work. People did not like that little group at all. And then finally they brought Bill and Steve back and we had the full Terry, Bill and Steve show back together again. And it was what it was. And K 97K Rock listeners were hilarious because a lot of them, I don't think, ever noticed that they were even gone. It was that whole thing of how close attention do the listeners pay? Well, they were gone for three years, and I don't think anybody noticed. It was just so bizarre. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:28:10 Man, the names you mentioned in that whole segment. First of all, I can tell you right now that Steve, who I knew is Kodiac Steve on Jungle Jim Jerome, that's not going to work. I could have said that before. I wouldn't even charge a consulting fee for that one. And then the incarnations of the whole thing. And then Lachlan Cross, who had left Power 97 and gone. And then he took Phil Aubrey a few months later when I guess the new PD showed up and Phil ran away from me and went right to Edmondson. So then that happened. So, yeah, all that sort of dysfunction you're talking about, that actually happened. Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:28:46 Only it's ten times worse than I remember looking back on it now. And I'll be honest, I haven't really talked about it in a very long time. And so now it's just kind of all falling out of my mouth in the order that it happened. Whereas I say it's like, yeah, this happened, and then that happened. And then, oh, my God, that led to this. And then we did this. It was nuts. It was an absolute nut show. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:29:12 But everybody that was mentioned is all doing great things right now. Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:29:17 Yeah. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:29:17 Whether it's a podcast, a morning show in Winnipeg or in Edmonton where everybody is doing great things right now. So there was all this talent. You get an A for talent, you get an F for chemistry. Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:29:29 That's exactly what it was. And again, it was just like people even within the building would just kind of look and go, what in the blue blazes of hell is happening in this place? And it was nuts. And I can't remember. I know, like Pat Cardinal came in at one point, too, as the just to add to it, just to add to it. I can't remember if Pat was there when Lachlan was there again. I feel like I've blocked a lot of this out of my memory. I think Pat and Lock were there at the same time. And I know after Lock left, then Gruff Kashkowski came in as the PD. And I love Gruff. He was so much fun to work with. And so I think maybe Pat was after Lock in the timeline, I can't recall. But I mean, Pat was amazing to work with just an incredible guy and an incredible programmer. And I can't say enough good things about Pat. I learned so much from Pat. Just being able to sit in a room with him and listen to the stuff that he had to say was just amazing. And I mean, anybody who was a radio nerd of any sort, which I absolutely was and still am to a degree, knew who Pack Cardinal was. You knew that he was the guy that he owned the city of Toronto and launching Jack FM and doing that whole thing, and you just knew who he was. And to have the opportunity to be able to work with him was just such an incredible experience. And so to add to the madness of that mixture of volatile personalities and volatile radio, it was a very weird time to be a part of that building and a part of that station, but so fun. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:31:16 And it wasn't his first go around in Edmonton because he'd already been number one with Power 92 for a zillion years. I know because I was in the city at the same time and it was impossible to beat what he was programming on Power 92. Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:31:30 Well, and I mean, he came in too, at the same time, they were flipping Big Earl over to Capital FM and that was when he hired Robin Audi back into the building and onto there and having them as the morning show. So again, all of a sudden you have this banging of egos in that. You've got Terry Bill and Steve down the hall in the rock station, and then you've got Rob Christie and Audi Lynn's down the hall and the other station, which, by the way, again, two guys who I absolutely loved having any opportunity to talk to. I cannot picture two more polar opposite human beings than Rob Christie and Audi Lynn, but the chemistry that they had on the air was just amazing and they brought kind of this neat little refresh into the building as well. But again, you had that weird sort of battle of egos between Terry Bill and Steve and Robin Audi, and it was a bizarre building to be a part of, but it was so much fun to be involved with. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:32:29 Bizarre building you're broadcasting out of a mall. Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:32:32 Oh, my God, yes. So everybody thinks it must be so cool to be able to do radio in West Edmonton Mall. And it is for about a week and a half. And then the novelty of that kind of wears off. Course, they wanted to be accessible. Right. So you've got the storefront studio and you've got the doors open. So when you're doing breaks, you've got mall atmosphere in the background and inevitably people think you're an info desk. So they're walking and asking you where the gap is and you're just focusing on your next break. I'm sorry, Becky, I don't know where the gap is. I'm trying to introduce this Rush record. This is not cool. Oh, is this a real radio station? Yes, it is. And I'm trying to work. It was just the oddest thing in the world. And where the novelty really wore off was when you were working at noon to six shift on Boxing Day. That was you went to work at 07:00 in the morning on Boxing Day so that you could get a parking spot because otherwise you're going to the biggest shopping mall in the world on Boxing Day to do a radio show. No, this was way before voice tracking. This was way before stations would just say Effort, we're just going to run music. We have a live body on Boxing Day. Yeah. But at the same time, amazingly fun. No other environment like it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:33:55 97.3 was called Krok. And the listeners were calling at K 97 for about the eight years that it was called K Rock. And 96.3 was the frequency in Edmonton that was traditionally bad music and bad radio lives here. Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:34:09 Yeah, the whole time. Again, I got hired, it was K Rock and yeah, you're right. Everybody with the phone. Oh, hey, is this K 97? Sure, why not? Yeah, it is. Okay. And then eventually somebody decided, you know what, effort. We're just going to go with it. Let's come up. Let's embrace that heritage of K 97. Let's embrace it. So they did a logo flip and a rebrand and everything. I mean, it was really cool. But again, it was kind of like the Terry Bill and Steve thing, right? People didn't notice that it was ever Krok. They just kind of thought, okay, well, yeah, it's still K 97. It's what it is. So, yeah, again, amazing experience to be a part of. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:34:52 And then you went to Calgary. Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:34:53 I did. It was one of those kind of weird situations. And actually, it's funny Winnipeg plays into this story. So I had applied for this job, this posting came up for music director for JACKfm in Calgary, and I thought, why not? What the heck? Edmonton was good, but there were some tough times there. The station felt like it was underperforming and it kind of felt like things were not necessarily going in the right direction. And admittedly, money was a thing, too. That was at a weird time like that, 2008, 2009, there was no pay raises of any kind, and the company was sending out notes on how to clip coupons and save money. Like it was just a really bizarre and so this opportunity came up to apply. So I applied and Gavin Tucker reached out to me and I was getting ready, actually, to go on a two week vacation. Winnipeg. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:35:45 Who does that? Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:35:46 Well, I mean, that's kind of what everybody said at that point. We had reasons. I think we had a wedding to go to, and I think my little sister was graduating from high school or something. So it was like, okay, we've got reasons to go. And so we went and he reached out to me and said, I'd love to chat with you. And I said, Well, I'm going to be away. And he said, Well, I'm going to be in Winnipeg, too. So we ended up going for lunch and having a conversation and had that whole chat. And it went really, really well. And so while I was in Winnipeg, he reached out to me to offer me the job to be the music director at Jack. So that was interesting to go back to Edmonton and have that conversation with Gruff and sit down and say, I got a job offer. And he looked he goes, Winnipeg. I said, no, Calgary. And he was baffled at that. Do you just spend two weeks in Winnipeg? I kind of figured that was where you'd end up. And I said, no, got this offer to go to Calgary. And I took it. And yeah, it was, again, another experience because I was going into from Newcap, which was even though it was a national company at that point, it still had that small company feel. People knew your name, right? That was kind of always the way I sort of looked at it was when the CEO or the President, somebody like Steve Jones knows who you are. That's cool. When you go to Rogers, the CEO of Rogers doesn't know who the hell I am, right? They don't care. They don't know you're. Just an employee number, basically. And so it was a very different experience to go into a place like Rogers and a big company like that, where it felt like there was so much more bureaucracy with things, if that makes sense. At Newcap, if you want a vacation time, you just stuck your head in the boss's office and went, hey, I want to take next week off. You got the shifts covered. Yeah. Okay, cool. Music is done. Yeah. Okay, cool. Get out of here. Whereas with a company like Rogers, I've got to submit this form in triplicate, and it's got to go through the PD and the GM and the office manager, and it's got to go to an HR person in Toronto. And they've got to calculate this. And it felt a lot more bureaucratic. It was a very different environment, but at the same time, going into a station, Jack FM, in Calgary, at that point, it was a monster in this city. It was something that had been you had Matt and Eric doing the morning show, and they were essentially by that time, they were a heritage morning show. In Calgary. They had been here for a very long time, very competitive radio market. And it was an opportunity to kind of up my game and feel I was just going to be going in to be a music director at that point, which was also something I wanted to be able to do. I wanted to kind of step away from having the dual life of being on the air and being the music director. I always kind of found that one of those duties suffered a little bit in time management. Right. Like you could either do a really good radio show and the music was kind of like, I'm just going to hit auto scale and massage it afterwards, or you could really focus on music. And Jack was kind of trying to work on getting some of these specialty weekends going and things like that and building the library and really focusing on the music. So it was like, okay, this is going to be my opportunity to just sit and do music and this is going to be great. And that changed. It was about a year, year and a half, and that changed. And they started rumbling with the idea of putting announcers back on the air outside of the morning show in terms of the performance of the radio station. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:39:23 You mentioned Heritage, and it was one of the better ones outside of Toronto, which did well. I think this was the best or the second best Jack FM property in Canada. Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:39:33 Yeah, there's Jack in Vancouver. And at that time, Jack in Vancouver was not performing all that awesome, from my understanding and from what I remember. I mean, the advantage was they had the same frequency. So any production that we did for Calgary, we could just slip out to Vancouver. That was cost saving. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:39:51 An advantage until you're in Vancouver and you welcome the stampede to town. Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:39:56 Yeah, exactly. Or you're in Calgary and you get the welcome to the PNE. Yeah, that doesn't exactly work out, but yeah, the station was a monster at that time, but after a little bit, it was doing that thing right where it was starting to slip a little bit. And they were playing around with music and refocusing and doing a lot of music testing and music studies to try to figure out what it was they could do to make the station great. And of course, everybody's a music director, everybody's a critic. You're getting opinions from everyone from the morning show down to the guy that sweeps the floors. Right. And so it was a discussion of, well, the stations become too mainstream. When Jack first launched, it was that, oh, wow factor of you never knew what you were going to hear next. You'd hear Lady Gaga, followed by AC DC, followed by Prince, followed by that whole thing. And when I got there, Jack had become a little bit more mainstream. So then we started playing with the oh, well, we're going to throw one of these a song from the 50s or the 60s in they're never going to hear Sugar Sugar by the Arches coming after we play Imagine Dragons. Right. Like, it was just kind of such a bizarre thing. And so the station was slipping. It was a weird time to be there. So they decided, you know what, let's put somebody on in the afternoons. Let's try and add some personality. And apparently that personality was me. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:41:22 It was fun. Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:41:23 It was fun to be back on the air. I did really enjoy that. But at the same time, we shifted our music scheduling a little bit and made some changes there. And yeah, again, it was an interesting time and an interesting place to be at that point. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:41:37 Really busy. You have to have personality in that market, because I'm just thinking in that era, Jerry Forbes, Don and Joanne Terry Demante was brought in from Montreal for that period. X 92 Nine is getting started and revving up. That market is busy. Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:41:55 It's funny when people think about competitive radio markets in Canada. I think the brain automatically goes to Toronto and Vancouver. And in all honesty, two of the most competitive markets in this country, from my understanding and from my own experience, are Edmonton and Calgary. You've got a ridiculous number of frequencies in Edmonton and a ridiculous number of stations in Edmondson. And same thing with Calgary. You've got this. I mean, it's been a long time since I've focused on the business and actually looked at how many stations are here. But I mean, you mentioned, as you say, like X stations, like X, which is now basically a heritage radio station here in town. It's been here for a very long time. And as you say, a station like CJ that had Forbes and Friends that was here forever, and a monster of a station that's a monster of a morning show that's never going to be matched again. You had Matt and Eric on Jack, and it was just such a great team for those two because again, you have polar opposites of two guys that got along so well and had such great chemistry on the radio. Yes. It was a really interesting market and a super competitive market to be in. So any little slide garnered the attention of everybody. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:43:09 And it was in that era, too that when I was looking for talent in Winnipeg, I had to go to Red River and train these people directly or I had to find them in Morden and in different places because people like you were in Calgary. It was like this big sort of talent section into Calgary and Edmonton because all these licenses were being passed out. Then I had to look at other places to hire my talent for Power 97. Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:43:34 Yeah. And again, like you say, I mean, it was this weird spot where stations were launching and they wanted people and they were bringing in people and they were bringing in. It was all levels of people too, right? Like, it was experienced people, people like myself that have been around for a while and then as well, like brand new talent that were fresh out of state and fresh out of the Radio College of Saint. And Nate here, I mean, I look at a station like Amp here in Calgary where you've got a morning show host, Katie Summers, who does mornings on Amp, who's been here. She's been a part of the radio station. Now, I want to say I just saw her post something on Facebook about ten plus years or something like that at that station, which I mean is unheard of in this business, particularly when you're young talent and you're coming into a brand new station like that. Like a station like Amp, you look at all the different things that they've done and all the sort of changes that they've gone through musically and ownership wise and management wise and all that kind of stuff. For somebody to be at a station like that for that length of time is incredible to me. I mean, that's awesome. But again, it's incredible to me. So as you say, like to pull talent out of a city like Calgary cannot be an easy thing. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:44:46 I see there's a hole on your resume between January 2015 and June 2015. Can you explain what you were doing in those six months? Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:44:54 Collecting unemployment in a severance. And it's funny. So the story of my firing at Jack FM, the station had gone through some changes and management wise, Gavin Tucker was out. That happened. I think I want to say August 2014 again, that was one of those things where you get that phone call at home from the GM. Hey, how's it going? I don't know. You tell me. Like that was that call. Gavin was out. Kelly Kirsch was taking over and Kelly was going to be running basically all of the radio stations. He was going to be running sports and he was going to be running. It was Kiss at that point, I think, or CHFM at that point. And Jack and so things were slipping. Things were sliding, ratings were down. Numbers were down. The writing was on the wall right at that point. And everybody kind of I'm not going to lie and say I didn't see it coming because I think we all kind of saw the changes coming down the road. I'm on vacation in Vegas, not Winnipeg this time. And one of the guys that would fill in for me when I would go on vacation was also down in Vegas at the same time. So he says, hey, let's go for a beer. Yeah. Okay. So we meet up for a beer and we're having a conversation. He goes, when are you headed back to Calgary? When you go back to work? I said Wednesday or Thursday whatever it was. So Thursday, fly back Wednesday night. He goes, oh, that's weird. He goes, Because Kersh just texted me and asked if I could work for you on Thursday. And I went, oh, okay. Well, maybe he's just messed up on the days. Like, who knows? I don't know. That happens. He's a busy guy, right? Maybe he's messed up on the days. And I look at him and I go, oh, I'm getting fired. So I fly home Wednesday night, Thursday morning, I get a text message from Kelly. Hey, can you come in for an early meeting? Kelly's never texted me, ever, especially at that time in the morning. And I instantly knew. I figured it was like an 80% chance I was getting canned or we were doing a bunch of consultant stuff. At that point, we were having meetings for all these changes. Apparently I was one of those changes. And at that time, the radio station jacket moved downtown. And at that time, parking in downtown Calgary was like $35 for a day. And so I thought, okay. And I was taking the bus to work every day. At first I thought, effort. I'm just going to drive down. And then I thought, no, I'm not paying $35 to get fired. That's not happening. So I said, I'll be there when I be there when I get there. So I took the bus, got there. And of course you knew, right? Every radio person that's been fired just knows. You walk in the door and it's like all the oxygen sucked out of the reception area, right? Like the receptionist won't make eye contact with you. So you walk past the receptionist, you get in the elevator, you go up the stairs, the doors open. There's the PD standing right there at the doors. We're going to go have a meeting with the GM. Yeah, of course we are. And walked in, and that was that. It was the standard going in a different direction. It's nothing personal. Blah, blah, blah. That whole thing. And I just kind of went, what do I have to sign? Like, here's my key card, here's my Fob for VPN access. Do you need me to sign something? Do I get an envelope? How does this work? And that was the end of it. That was the end of my time at Jack FM in January 2015. Yeah. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:48:30 So Congratulations, you got six months off and then you wind up at WestJet. That's a pretty good little score. Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:48:37 It's funny. If you talk to any former Calgary radio person, WestJet seems to be where a lot of us land is at WestJet. For the longest time, WestJet was known for hiring for personality. And, I mean, you're not going to find people with bigger personalities than radio people, right? Or performers. And so aviation was always sort of another passion of mine, aside from radio and music. And so WestJet was always kind of on the radar and I took some time in between gigs and I applied. And the application process for WestJet at that point was a very long, drawn out process. I had applied. I think I applied for that job, and I want to say April. And then we interviewed in May, and then it was the beginning of June before they hired us on to start training. And yeah, it's an interesting company, and it's a great company to be a part of. And culture wise, it's a good place to be, and the people are awesome. And of course, the benefits of being able to travel and being able to do that are huge for a huge part of being a part of that company. So, yeah, it was a good place to land, and it was an opportunity to sort of reset and take some time off and yeah, jump into the WestJet world. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:49:55 Did you know that the job with WestJet would lead to more travel and other opportunities? Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:50:03 Getting into WestJet, I started off working in the call center, which I mean, most people that start working at WestJet, that's usually where they end up or where they start. It's usually either call center or working at the airport as a CSA customer service agent. And so that was where I got in, but that wasn't where I wanted to stay. I knew kind of what I wanted to do. And again, the Red River creative communications person in me was like, hey, I'd really like to get into doing social media stuff with WestJet. I think that would be a great opportunity. Well, instead, I've ended up working in the operations Department and the operations team. And so with that schedule, both in the call center and in the operations center, in that team, you work a rotationary schedule, so you have a lot of time off and a lot of spare time. And in that spare time, what do you do? You travel. So, I mean, I was making trips back to Winnipeg. The first year that I was at WestJet, I was back to Winnipeg more in that first year than I've probably been in the previous ten. Just because that freedom to be able to hop on a plane when there's space available and come home when there's space available was there. I mean, it got to the point where with my wife and I, our nieces and nephews would phone us and ask if we could. Are you guys coming for dinner this weekend? Well, no, you can just get on a plane and fly out here. Uncle Jeff, what's the problem? It's my birthday this weekend. Can't you just get on a plane and come out for my birthday? So it kind of got to that point. And yeah, we use those travel benefits like crazy, and it gave us the opportunity to go all over the place and connect with people that we never would have connected with before, which was fantastic. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:51:44 Okay. Wait until you hear what happens next. This job Jeff gets at WestJet is going to create an opportunity to enable things to take off in podcasting. Stand by for the departure. Tara Sands (VO) 00:52:00 The the the sound off podcast. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:52:02 Kendall, you mentioned the WestJet social media. I can't help but think of the Christmas miracle that comes out and Richard Bartram and the work that he puts in to doing that every year. He's the brother of Blair Bartram, who is also phenomenal radio programmer and marketer, and he's now producing the morning show at Chef Eye in Toronto. But I think of WestJet. I do think of the social media and the fun that you mentioned and being bright and energetic. But I'm so glad that you discovered that there were other places to go than Winnipeg when the seat was empty on a WestJet plane, because I think you found Vegas. Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:52:37 I found Vegas in a big way. I mean, Las Vegas was a city that my wife and I had gone to a couple of times and really enjoyed it. We always had a lot of fun there. And then once this ability to hop on a plane and travel came up and I thought, oh, this means I can go to Vegas. Like whenever, oh, I have three days off. I'm going to hop on a plane on a Monday. There's lots of open spaces and go for a few days and go see some friends and have a few drinks and see a couple of shows and eat some meals. And the next thing I know, I'm going to Vegas eight times a year. And all of a sudden I'm the de facto Vegas expert amongst our group of friends and amongst our family. And people are reaching out to me and saying, Where's a good place to stay, what's a good show to see, Where's a good place to eat all this kind of stuff. And so, yeah, so that was how things kind of led to me doing a Vegas podcast. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:53:37 The Jeff in Vegas podcast launches. So why did you want to do this podcast? Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:53:44 I always kind of wanted to do a podcast, and I dabbled a little bit after I got canned from Jack, as every radio guy does, right? Every radio guy thinks, well, I'm just going to take my radio listeners and they're just going to follow me to the podcast, and that's going to be that. And I think that works well for some guys. That works very well for some guys very well for me. It did not because I made a conscious effort to keep my radio life separate from my personal life and my social media. And a lot of that just had to do with some negative experiences that I've had with social media and people not stalking me, but harassing and things like that. And so I made a very conscious effort to keep those two lives separate. So trying to make the world make it into the world of podcasting or online stuff when you don't really have a following just doesn't work. And so the more times that I was going to Vegas and the more people were asking me these questions, I thought this could make an interesting podcast. And I kind of looked at what was out there as far as Vegas related podcasts. And most of them are gambling. Basically, all of them are gambling podcasts. There were a couple of shows of people that were doing like trip reviews and interviewing or going to shows and reviewing shows and things like that. But there wasn't any real long form interview stuff. So I thought I could take these experiences that I'm having and these questions that people are asking me about hotels and shows and things like that, throw it into a podcast. And you know what, if ten people listen to it, I'm happy with that. I'm okay with that. And then I was also because of the amount of times that I've been going and the people that I've gotten to know through my time in radio and a couple of interviews that I've done with Vegas performers, much like radio, where everyone knows everyone, Vegas performers, a very small community of people, and everyone knows everyone. So I was able to leverage a couple of those contacts into other contacts and into other interviews. And again, it was kind of the situation where there really at that time weren't a lot of people doing interviews with Vegas performers or Vegas entertainers or subjects that were sort of Vegas adjacent and touched on that world of Las Vegas. And there weren't any Canadians doing it. That was the other thing. It was like, oh, there's no other Canadians doing a podcast like this that I could find. And so I thought, why not? Let's try it out and see what happens. And so the very first episode I posted was posted originally at the end of December 2018. And it was a trip report episode, and it's some of the worst clap trap I've ever put out, looking back on it now just in the way that those reports and those reviews have sort of evolved. It's an entirely different animal from what I'm putting out now. But it was again, it was a learning opportunity, and it was that whole thing of, you know what, now when people ask me stuff, I can tell them and then I can also direct them to this podcast. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:56:46 Nobody has a good episode, one of anything. No, an episode five doesn't sound like 1020 or 30 either. So how many episodes have you done with this, by the way? Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:56:57 I am up to currently working, I think, on an episode 114, something like that. And then I've also put out various bonus episodes and things like that. It's been a fun evolution, and it's been a really interesting experience. And it's gotten way bigger than I ever anticipated. It would become when you get that first person reaching out to you that isn't a family member to ask your opinion on something or they're reaching out to you for questions on whatever or I've even had the weird experience of being in Las Vegas and having somebody say, Are you that guy that does that podcast? I listen to your podcast. It's so cool. And so that's a really weird experience to have, too. So, yeah, it's been a lot of fun putting it together. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:57:47 Where do you stay when you're in Vegas? Do you have a place you go all the time or frequent? Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:57:51 It's usually wherever my wallet takes me. Quite honestly, I will bounce around usually Flamingo Valleys, places like that. For the longest time, I was diamond with Caesars, not because I gamble a lot, but because I bought my way into it with a program called Founders Card, which meant I didn't pay resort fees when I stayed at those places. So any of the Caesars resorts were zero resort fees. So, like, when my wife and I went in December, we stated Valleys, and it was legitimately $6 a night for us to stay there. So that's kind of my thing. As I said, I'm Flamingo Valleys guy. They're great locations. They're middle of the Strip. They're perfect place to stay. You've got that opportunity. You walk out, you go left, you go right, you're right in the thick of the action. That's my favorite spot. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:58:37 So for my 50th wife gets to take me to Vegas. She says, you got to go to Vegas. You've never been before. So I reach out to you and I ask you a few questions about where I should go and what I should eat. And I listen to a few of your podcast episodes, and I thought, man, this is the best podcast. He's an expert in this thing that people want. And everybody aspires to have the best time in the three or four days that they want to go to. Jeff Walker (Guest) 00:59:00 Well, I appreciate that. I really appreciate those words and the kindness on that, because at times you kind of question, right when you're putting out these podcasts, it's like, is anybody listening? Is anybody actually paying attention? And numerous times like yourself, I've had listeners that have reached out and said, hey, I heard your Trip Report episode where you talked about staying at Planet Hollywood and eating at Gordon Ramsey's Hell's Kitchen. You know what? My wife and I, we went and we had dinner at Hell's Kitchen, and it was the most amazing experience. And I just want to say thank you for that. So the thing is, as I say, there's so many Vegas podcasts that are gambling focused, and I get that gambling is obviously the lifeblood of Las Vegas. That makes sense. That that's where so many people would go. But at the same time, based on what I see in the various Vegas Facebook groups that I'm a member of gambling is not always a big thing for people. The level of disposable income that people have for gambling is not that high anymore. And as I say, I think so many people are now going Vegas is about the experiences, and they want to go and they want to eat at the latest celebrity chef restaurant, whether it's a Gordon Ramsey restaurant or that Salt Bay guy that dribbles the salt down his elbow onto your steak or whatever. They want that experience. They want to go to a Golden Nights game and experience hockey in Vegas. They want to go to a Raiders game and experience that maybe that's their first NFL experience. And where better to do it than Las Vegas? So I think it's a very different group of people that listen to my podcast versus listening to some of the other Vegas podcasts that are out there. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:00:40 What's your favorite meal in Vegas? Jeff Walker (Guest) 01:00:42 That's a really good question. I've eaten at the Golden Steer, which is off the Strip Steakhouse, probably one of the coolest hangs in the world. I mean, it's the oldest Steakhouse in Las Vegas. It was a legitimate mob hangout. Frank Sinatra hung out there, Liberace hung out there. When my wife and I ate there, we sat in Joe DiMaggio's booth. They come out and they make the Caesar salad right table side for you, and you have like four or five servers looking after you at all times. The atmosphere was incredible. The food was amazing. We also really enjoyed Oscars Steakhouse at the Plaza downtown that is not owned but managed under the name of Oscar Goodman, who was the Mayor of Las Vegas for a very long time, was also a mob attorney for a very long time in Vegas. And so, again, just the food was amazing. The atmosphere was incredible. The experience was incredible. As much as we love the big celebrity chef places and we have eaten at Health Kitchen. And again, that was an amazing experience, but it was an amazing experience because it was a Gordon Ramsay restaurant and the food was great and everything. But I kind of loved that sort of off the Strip local feel, old Vegas feel. It was a little cooler. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:01:56 So if you weren't sure anybody was listening to your podcast, you made sure that everybody was going to listen to your podcast by bringing a sex worker onto your show. Jeff Walker (Guest) 01:02:09 Yeah. I mean, anybody that's been to Vegas, let me rephrase any man that's been to Vegas, particularly if you've ever gone solar or have ever spent any time on your own, whether your wife's up in the room and you're going to sit at a slot machine and gamble or the bar, play video poke or whatever, has had this experience where a beautiful woman sits down beside you and starts striking up a conversation. If that isn't something that normally happens in the real world to you, there's a very good chance that this person sitting down as a professional, they are there to try to make some money. And I mean, you can't deny Las Vegas is the city of sin. You get hit with it as soon as you get off the plane. There's billboards for strip clubs, there's ads for topless shows. There's all of this stuff. You've got the three quarter naked show girls walking up and down the strip. You've got all this stuff. And so I thought, I think it would be an interesting conversation, and I didn't want to make it anything salacious. That was my goal when I had that conversation. I didn't want it to be salacious. I didn't want it to be childish. And giggly. And I listened to other interviews that other escorts had done on other podcasts. And that was what it was. It was always this weird giggly discussion in these strange conversations about the weirdest clients you've ever had and all that kind of stuff. And I thought, I don't want to do that. Like I want to tell a story. And so this particular escort started following me on Twitter, which I thought, okay, it just must have something to do with me having Vegas in my name or whatever. And in the interest of politeness, I followed her back and I discovered she actually she had a really interesting personality. She posted a lot of really funny stuff and not just stuff related to that industry. And then I discovered she had actually been on a couple of other podcasts. So I thought, you know what? I'll reach out and see what happens. And I listened to those podcasts and she was great, but she was really good. And so I thought, you know what? I'll reach out and see what happens. And she was all about it. And so we had the conversation. I posted the episode, and there's no question it's my most listened to and most downloaded episode in the entire run. I think it's well over 2000 downloads now, which when most of my other episodes are 657, 50, maybe 1000 if it's something really interesting. This one is the granddaddy of all of the episodes. And I mean, it's an interesting one to listen to. It still gets a lot of downloads and a lot of listens. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:04:46 Well, thanks a lot for supporting me with my trip to Vegas for my 50th birthday. It was February 28, 2020. And a week or two later, they shut her down. And Vegas was especially hard hit. But you were also hard hit because you kind of had to put the podcast on ice, didn't you? I did. Jeff Walker (Guest) 01:05:06 And it was a tough decision to make. I tried like everybody else, we all thought this was going to be temporary, right? So I thought, you know what? I can come up with some stuff. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:05:17 Two weeks to crush the curve. Jeff Walker (Guest) 01:05:18 Yeah, two weeks. Two weeks to flatten the curve, right? That's what it's going to be. And so I kind of looked and went like, I can keep putting out some stuff. And then, of course, with the shutdown affecting so many of my friends who are entertainers, they had to find new and interesting ways to try to earn income and try to keep making a living because there were no government supports, there was none of that kind of stuff. So they needed to find that out. So they were doing online shows and online streams where they were taking tips and stuff. And I thought, okay, well, I can have them on and I can have conversations with them and talk about how this is affecting them and stuff, but you can only do that for so long before that's really kind of getting depressing. And so I thought, damn, how am I going to keep this going? So, yeah, I thought, I got to take a break. I got to step away from this. I can't do this any longer. I'm not able to travel with all the different restrictions that are in place. I can't go I was laid off from WestJet because, of course, the company, the travel industry was decimated and cut back. So there was massive layoffs there. So that ability to travel was gone. And so I just thought, I've got to put this on ice for a little bit. I just can't do it. I'll stay active on social media, but I just can't do this anymore. I got to step away from it. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:06:35 When did you make the decision to restart it and bring it back and fire it up again? Jeff Walker (Guest) 01:06:40 So I noticed even though we weren't open and Canada wasn't open, the rest of the world was starting to open up and people were starting to go back to Vegas. And I noticed that I was still seeing downloads on my podcast. People were still listening. People were still asking me questions. They were still reaching out to me and communicating with me. And I thought, okay, numbers are starting to go up again. It's starting to climb. If I hit 100,000 total downloads when I hit 100,000, I will go back to doing new episodes. I'll start planning for that and amazingly managed to hit that 100,000 Mark. And again, I look back now and I kind of chuckle about I'm happy thrilled about hitting 100,000. But I look back when different Facebook memories come up and stuff and I look back and it's like, wow, I was just as excited about hitting 1000 downloads as I was about hitting 100,000 downloads because I never expected it to get this big. I never expected it to be anything more than a passion project, a hobby. That was all it was going to be. And again, like I said earlier, if ten people listen to it, you know what? I'm happy about that the ten people managed to find my podcast and listen to it. And yeah, so when I hit that 100,000 Mark. I thought, all right, let's start putting stuff together. And again, things were starting to open up too, right? So I thought, okay, I can start reaching out to people, and if I'm going to start making trips back down to Vegas, then maybe I can start planning a few interviews again while I'm down there. That was the other thing too. Behind putting it on ice was the fact that I was running out of content. Previously, when I would go to Vegas again eight times a year or seven times a year, go for three days. I would minimum get three interviews while I was down there. So I'd get three episodes plus a trip report episode. There's four of those 28 potentially. That's over seven years or seven trips a year. That's 28 episodes. That's half of my episodes for a year. I try to put out an episode every week. So all of a sudden that content is gone, it's dried up, and it's harder to arrange things over online. And it's not as fun and it's not as interesting. And some entertainers and some people are not as savvy to do that stuff. So again, as I say, that was part of the reason for putting it on ice. So as I was looking at it and going, okay, people are going back. I'm going to have that ability to go back. I've hit this 100,000 Mark. You know what? Let's start her up again and let's start working on it again. So that was what I did. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:09:15 What was it like to go back to Vegas for the first time? Jeff Walker (Guest) 01:09:18 It was amazing. It was emotional, quite frankly, because it had been almost two years. It had been a full two years since my wife had been down in almost two years since I had been down. My last trip was in January of 2020. My wife and I had been down in December 2019. So it was the first trip in two years. The people that I have down there, I jokingly refer to them as my Vegas family. And because they are. And I mean, when I was going as often as I was, I was seeing them more than I saw my real family. And this was a group of people who were nice enough to invite myself and my wife into their lives and make us feel like we were part of their family and part of this intimate little group that they have together. And to land in Vegas and finally be there. We kind of took a risk and book this December 2021 trip in like May of 2021 when things were still not looking awesome. But we thought, you know what? By the end of the year, it's got to be back to normal. Of course, it really kind of was, but wasn't. But when we finally when we got on the plane and we landed and we looked out the window and we both just kind of went we're home. Like, it just felt right. We got right into the groove and getting to see our friends. We went out for a big event. One of my friends does a charity show twice a month down there, and they do this massive anniversary show every year at the theater at what used to be the Hard Rock, but now Virgin Hotel. And so we were able to see all of our entertainer friends there. There were tears, there were hugs, there was crying, they were laughing. And it was just it felt so good to be able to be back and then to be able to get an episode out of that trip and a Trip report episode and get back into that groove of writing and putting stuff together and getting episodes put back together. And then at that point too, to start planning for the next trip. That was always kind of a running joke. It's like I'd be sitting at the airport waiting to go home, and I've already looking at my calendar and looking at events and starting to make plans for the next trip. I was doing that as we're sitting in the airport getting ready to come home after that trip. And I just thought, like, it feels so good to be back. Like, it really just felt right. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:11:37 So the two concerns that I would have if I were booking a trip to Vegas is there going to be enough people to serve me? And I know there'll be enough hotels, but what will the prices be like of those hotels when I get there? So those are the two things that I would look at and go, Do I want to go to Vegas? Jeff Walker (Guest) 01:11:56 Yeah. Right now our experience when we went in December, hotels again. We booked that trip way back in May, and we had a trip to St. Martin canceled by Covet. So in April of 2020, that's a bucket list trip of mine as an aviation or anybody that's ever looked up the beach in St. Martin knows that airplanes are basically landing on your head. I wanted to go lay on the beach and let airplanes land on my head for a week. That was going to be my trip that got canceled. So we had a big travel credit from that cancellation. So the Vegas trip we did in December, we did it right. Like, we stayed at the Cosmopolitan. We got a Terrace Suite. That was our hotel stay. We ate at a lot of really nice restaurants. We blew it up big. When I went down in March recently, that was a slightly different experience. I stayed at Valleys. I noticed a change in customer service. That was a big thing. I noticed, for example, at the hotel and at the all of the Caesars resorts, with the exception, I think, of Caesars Palace. They've now gone to the self checking. So you're doing it at a kiosk. So there's no more asking for a high rise or sliding the guy at 20 to try to upgrade yourself to a suite. There's none of that. It's like checking in for your flight at the airport at a kiosk. It spits out a room key. It spits out the directions to your room. You put your credit card and your passport in, and that's that. You kind of get what you get. I noticed service at restaurants would seem to be a little bit slower, but then at the same time they were like trying to push you out because they want to turn those tables as fast as they can. I've noticed hotel room prices going up, but I think a lot of that just has to do with the fact that Vegas is getting busier and that there are more events happening. You've now got things like the NFL draft that just happened back at the end of April that jacked up the room rates. Nfl games Jack up the room rates in a big way. Fights conventions are now coming back. So as those conventions are coming back, the room rates are going up. So, yeah, I think all of that stuff starting to come back is causing a real increase in the room rates. There are still deals to be had, depending on the days of the week that you go. I mean, I've traditionally always done kind of Sunday to Thursday or Monday to Wednesday trips. The crowds are less and the room rates tend to be more reasonable. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:14:20 I think one of the more interesting changes that I'm paying attention to with Vegas is the arrival of the Raiders. And we say arrival. They've been there for a couple of years, but not really with the fans. So now let's watch and see what happens when the fans come in. And now you've got some casinos who are buying up some season tickets, who are trying to lure in some of the bigger fan bases. So when the Rams come to town and the Cowboys, the packers and the Buffalo Bills and the Bills Mafia, when they wind up on the schedule, I can see package deals. And I don't think the Raiders are ever going to have a crowd that's going to have more than 65 or 70% Raider fans in the building. It's going to be at least 30, 40% of the other team. Listen, if it's the Cowboys of the packers, it's going to be completely the other way around. It's going to be a home game for both those teams. So it'll be interesting. I mean, if you're a Raiders fan, this is not going to be a good thing, but I think the rates are going to be sharing space and it's going to feel a little bit like a neutral field going forward. Jeff Walker (Guest) 01:15:23 And that makes sense. I've done a couple of episodes and interviews with sports guys in town and talked about the arrival of pro sports in Vegas. Which has been a huge thing since 2018 with the Vegas Golden Knights coming in. And it makes sense because I think NFL fans, particularly I'm not an NFL fan. I don't watch the games. I don't watch it. Yeah, for me, it's like I'm just not an NFL guy, but I get passionate fan bases, and I understand that. And I know that a lot of NFL fans have got that thing in their mind where I'm going to go to an away game, I'm going to travel and go see my team somewhere. Well, if you are a Bills fan, for example, are you going to go see a game in Green Bay and freeze your ass off, or are you going to go to Vegas and make a vacation out of it? I think that's what they're seeing. A lot of, as you say, is those large groups. And the first year I was lucky enough to go to quite a few Vegas Golden Knights games in their first season. And I mean, that was an amazing experience as a person that's been to a few different NHL arenas and been to a few different games. There is nowhere that does hockey like Vegas, honestly. And actually, I've been to more Vegas Golden Knights games in the last, whatever, five years. Then I've been to Calgary Flames games since I've lived here, moved here in 2010. The first season was on average, like a 50 50 split of tourists and local fans. And then when you would get those, particularly the Canadian teams that would roll in Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, those franchises, those teams would roll in and the place was full. The first jets game that I ever went to in Vegas, it was like being at a Winnipeg Jets home game. And I mean, they did it right out front of New York, New York. There's the stage out front of the New York New York Hotel. They had a tragically hip tribute band playing like it was nuts. As I say, they did it right. They knew exactly what they were doing. But the second year after Vegas did so well, in that first season, there was a shift. There was a big shift, and there was way more locals and way less visiting fans or felt like way less visiting fans. But I don't know if the Raiders will experience the same thing. I think a lot of that with the Golden Knights had to do with the fact that it was their team. It was a, borrow their phrase, a Vegas born team, as opposed to the Raiders, which are a relocated team. So I think you're right. I think they're never going to totally feel like a home team. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:17:55 What's your advice for anybody in radio who thinks they can just jump into podcasting? Jeff Walker (Guest) 01:18:01 Do your research, find your niche. Honestly, I see it all the time in the different Facebook groups and podcast groups that I'm a member of, where people are like, well, I've got a microphone and I've got a computer and my buddy and I are pretty funny. We're just going to sit down and talk about stuff and get an audience. I think those days are long gone. The guys that are good at that are doing that and are going to continue to do that and they'll be the ones that do that. Personally, I would say find a niche. Find something you're passionate about. I always used to joke with people when they'd ask about starting a podcast and finding something you're passionate about. I used to joke about calling it mashed potato passion. You could do a mashed potato podcast. If you're passionate about mashed potatoes, do that. There's somebody else that's passionate about mashed potatoes. Talk about the best mashed potatoes you've ever had. Do an interview with someone like that kind of stuff and it makes sense. Find something you're passionate about because there's going to be somebody else who's passionate about the same thing and go with that as your niche. Work on that. Do your research, figure out who your audience is, figure out what you're passionate about and talk about that. That's how you start in my mind anyways a successful podcast that's what I've done with mine. I've decided that Vegas is what I want to talk about so here we are talking about Vegas. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:19:20 Jeff, thanks so much for being on the podcast this week and Congratulations, by the way, and all the success of the Jeff and Vegas podcast. Jeff Walker (Guest) 01:19:27 Thank you, Matt. And you know what? Your podcast is a lot of fun and it's been fun to kind of rehash these memories that I blocked from my mind. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:19:36 Just send me the bill for the therapy. Jeff Walker (Guest) 01:19:38 Yeah. Tara Sands (VO) 01:19:41 The sound podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill produced by Evan Surminski social media by Courtney Krebsbach another great creation from the the soundoff media company. There's always more@soundoffpodcast.com.

If you've ever taken a look at the other shows we offer on the Soundoff Podcast Network, this week's guest should sound quite familiar. Mark Sutcliffe is the host of the Digging Deep podcast, one of our largest shows, where he uses the knowledge gained from his lengthy and prolific career in the broadcast industry to give some seriously gripping interviews. There's a reason I said "In the broadcast industry" there, and not just "In broadcasting." And that's because Mark has seen just about every side of the industry. I can't really sum up his career any better than the About section on his personal website, so in Mark's own words: "I've been a daily newspaper columnist, a talk-radio host, a baseball play-by-play announcer, a Sunday-morning political TV host, and more. And I’ve been a proud volunteer, activist and community leader. I am a member of the Order of Ottawa and was named the United Way’s ambassador of the year." He's also been a management consultant, entrepreneur, and executive for various companies over the years. Needless to say, he's got the experience to dig deep on just about any topic. On this episode, we dig deep into Mark himself. He shares how he started in broadcasting before even graduating from high school, how he started his own business at the age of 19 and piloted it to huge success, and much more. We also talk about some of the biggest moments in history that have happened between the early 90's and now, many of which Mark reported on in various ways. And of course, there's lots of sports talk as well- you know I can't resist when I get a fellow fan on the show. If you want to hear more of Mark, you can listen to Digging Deep on the Soundoff Network, Mark's personal website, or check out an episode below: On June 30th, 2022, Mark announced he was running for Mayor of Ottawa: Announced via newsletter and website: Every week at this time I've been sharing thoughts about leadership and other valuable insights I've discovered in the past week. This week I wanted to share some personal news with you. Yesterday, I registered as a candidate to be the next mayor of my hometown, Ottawa. I've never run for office before. But I love my city and I care deeply about its future. I'm hoping to apply the lessons I've learned from many of the guests I've interviewed on the Digging Deep podcast, including former Calgary mayor Naheed Nenshi, as I try to bring my leadership experience to Ottawa city hall. If you'd like to learn more, please visit my website at marksutcliffe.ca. While the campaign continues, I'll be taking a break from The Weekly Dig. But I will be back in touch soon. Thank you! Mark Transcript: Tara Sands (VO) 00:00:01 The Sound Off Podcast. The podcast about broadcast with Matt Cundill starts now. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:10 Mark Sutcliffe is the CEO of the Digging Deep Group. He's an entrepreneur and host of the Digging Deep podcast, which is one of the bigger podcasts we have on the Sound Off Podcast Network. It was launched back in March of 2020 and features fascinating people, including broadcasters, newsmakers, athletes and politicians. The success of the show is attributed to consistent releases and great conversations. Mark's broadcast career goes back to the 1980s, and he joins me from Canada's nation's capital, Ottawa. Long overdue that we get together to do this, because I've been a big follower of your podcast for the last couple of years. Mark Sutcliffe (Guest) 00:00:47 Well, thank you. Likewise. Love talking radio. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:51 And you've had a lot of ins and outs in radio over the years, but also had a lot of experience with business. So what was your very first business? Mark Sutcliffe (Guest) 00:01:00 My first business was a phone line that you could call and get the latest sports scores. So needless to say, this was before the Internet, and live 24 hour reporting on everything. When I was a kid, I was a Montreal Canadians fan and I would watch Hockey Night in Canada. Usually I'd have to watch in French because I live in Ottawa. So the Leafs games would be on in English, the Canadiens games would be on in French, and I would have to go to bed after the second period. That was my bedtime. And if I didn't find a way to listen to some radio sports cast the next morning, I would have to wait until Monday to find out whether the Canadiens had won the game or not. That's the world I grew up in, Matt. So when I was about 18 or 19, I started this business where I would gather all of these sports scores in every sport, and I would record a sports cast on tape, and I would update it about every 20 minutes or half an hour all through the evening. And people could call in and hear a live sports- or not live, but a recorded sports cast, but almost live because it was very new, fresh, and I sold advertising on that. That was my first business. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:02:11 I mean, it's something that was done in New York, because I remember when I was seven or eight years old, they would have things like Dial-A-Joke and you could call in for the sports and all that stuff. And by the way, I feel your pain with being a Montreal Canadiens fan in that area. So my Saturday nights were in Montebello, where we had a farm. So we'd spend Saturday nights there. And of course, you could get CBC Ottawa, which would just pipe in. But it was always the Leafs game. And so we had to do the bunny ears to get CBMT 6 out of Montreal to appear on our TV. And there was a lot of snow involved. But there was always a better signal on CBC Ottawa in French. And you're right, there was no newspaper on Sunday. The Journal and the Citizen were the newspapers at the time. I don't think either did anything on Sunday. I would get the score from CFRA Ottawa. Mark Sutcliffe (Guest) 00:03:01 Yeah. And I grew up listening to CFRA. And my parents listened to CFMO, which was the easy listening station. Gord Atkinson was the legendary broadcaster there. He had in the past interviewed people like Elvis Presley and Rich Little and Bing Crosby and all of those people. So I grew up in that environment and then ended up working there, which was really cool. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:03:23 So your mornings were spent with Ken The General Grant. Mark Sutcliffe (Guest) 00:03:26 Absolutely. And we would listen to him. He actually came to my junior high school and MC'd the spelling Bee that I was in, when I was in grade eight, I think. And it was a huge deal that Ken The General Grant was coming to our school. He was huge. He was as big a star as there was in Ottawa at that time. And he did the morning show on CFRA for probably- I can't remember the exact number. It was 35, 36 years, something like that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:03:52 So you're not even out of high school, but you get into doing radio at Carlton. How did you fandangle that? Mark Sutcliffe (Guest) 00:03:59 Yeah. So I had a friend at school in Ottawa who was doing a co-op at CKCU, the radio station at Carleton University. And I went with him one day. And I had fallen in love with radio. I used to listen to radio all the time when I was a kid. I would listen to the Mark Elliott Show on CFRA. He would play the hits in the evenings. I listened to ball games, Dave Van Horn and Duke Snyder calling the expose games. They were on CKBY in auto at the time. And then I started listening to Shay 106 and getting the rock music fix. So I was really into radio and I just had this love affair with radio. So going with my friend to this radio station and he introduced me to the people there. And I started working on the high school show. And from there, I just basically started showing up whenever I could volunteering. I did news, I did sports, I hosted shows, I did editing, whatever they would give me, I would do because I just wanted to be in radio. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:04:57 I won a ski pass from Mark Elliot in 1983. And everybody heard me. And the next day they made fun of me. Mark Sutcliffe (Guest) 00:05:07 I won tickets to see Ted Nugent from Mark Elliot. And we had a rotary phone. And I'll never forget this, Matt: The contest line was 750-3814. I'll never forget that, 750-3814. And he would say, "I'm going to take caller number 35 right now." And I would count in my head imagining him saying, you're caller number one, you're caller number two, you're caller number three, you're caller number four. And I timed- this is when I was like 13 or 14 years old. I timed how long it would take on my parents phone, the Rotary dial phone to dial the number. And when I got to the right, it would have been like caller number 25 or something. I would start dialing to try to time it right for caller number, whatever he said. And one time I got through and I won Ted Nugent tickets, which I sold to a classmate of mine. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:05:59 And it wasn't so long after that that you started doing overnights on CFRA. Mark Sutcliffe (Guest) 00:06:04 I know literally maybe five or six years after Ken Grant came to our school, I was doing overnights on CFRA, doing what was called a news and out shift. So CFRA eventually became a talk station. But at that time, there was a lot of talk and news, but they also played some music. So overnight I was the newscaster and the DJ both. I was a one person radio station from ten till five, something like that. And I remember the first time I did the shift on my own, and I'm doing the 05:00, a.m. News on CFRA. And I look up and Ken the General Grant is sitting in the studio on the other side of the glass from where I'm sitting as I'm reading this newscast. It's pretty cool. And I was very nervous. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:06:53 I think that's astounding that you were doing that at such a young age and that CFRA was really the first commercial station that you got into. Did you send in a tape? How did this happen? Mark Sutcliffe (Guest) 00:07:04 I had started doing some freelance work for Shay 106. So when I was in University back then, I heard you talking with Jim Lang about this, about how FM radio stations in those days would have a lot of what was called foreground programming. They did a lot of public affairs programming. They didn't just play music 24 hours a day like they do now. And so Shay 106 had a requirement for somebody to go out and cover things from time to time. And I was doing some of that. And somebody connected me with Steve Maidley at CFRA. He was the news director at the time. I went in and saw him and he said, We've got an opening for a part time overnight person. That's all I've got. And I did that for a few months. And then I ended up getting a job, a permanent job at Shay 106. And I went to Shay 106. I had a great time doing that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:07:52 And there were a lot of requirements that we had to do back then. I remember Shay 106 used to have one called the Open Quarter, which was 15 minutes of music that really all had something to do with one another. And I thought it was for a 13 year old, this is too deep for me. And a little over my head. I just wanted to hear like, Cindy Lopper and break my stride and all those 80 songs and the top 40 wars that were going on between Cfgo and CFRA. And eventually 540 came on board. Mark Sutcliffe (Guest) 00:08:21 Cjsb yeah, there was a lot going on. And I think, you know, Matt, Ottawa has always had a crazy number of radio stations because of the French and English communities in Ottawa and the CBC, there's always been just extraordinary. I think at one time we had the most radio stations per capita of any city in Canada. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:08:42 There's a lot of cross pollination of sports as well. So you've got Montreal Canadiens and Toronto Maple Leafs. The Senators don't come along until 1993, but you've also got the Expos and Blue Jays. So there's enough sports content and you found your way into working with some of these properties through the radio station. Mark Sutcliffe (Guest) 00:09:01 Yeah, it was a great time because Shay 106 at the time was doing all this amazing programming. Randy Burgess was the sports director and he became a mentor to me. Great guy. Ken Rockburn was the news director at Shay legendary broadcaster in Ottawa, who went on to CPAC and the CBC. And Randy would send me off to cover sporting events in other cities. I mean, it's crazy to think of that now, but I would go to Montreal and cover the Stanley Cup playoffs when the Canadians were playing in the playoffs. I would go cover, expose games and come back and I go in the locker room and interview everybody and come back with tons of tape they would use on the sports cast the next morning. And I would go to Toronto and cover Leafs games and Blue Jays games and the great cup if it was in Toronto. I went to New York City one time into Boston to cover some games in the NHL playoffs. I don't even think I realized how big a deal it was at the time, but I was incredibly lucky to have those kinds of experiences. And I mean, I was 19, 2021 years old while that was going on. It was just great. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:10:03 And to think of how spoiled we were in that era with sports, I was living it, too. But in the early 90s, the Blue Chase are coming. They're ascending. The Expos start to put something together. In 1992, the Montreal Canadians go to the Stanley Cup final. Toronto had a very compelling hockey team. Wow, it was Mardi Gras. Mark Sutcliffe (Guest) 00:10:27 It was a great time. It's funny you say that, Matt, because my son and I were chatting. My son is a big sports fan now. He's twelve. And we were talking last night and we realized and I think I'm right about this. The last time that a Canadian team won the Stanley Cup was Montreal in 1993. And the last time that a Canadian team won the World Series was Toronto. So that was a great time. And the Expos were really strong at that time, too, as many people know, they would have. I grew up in Expos fan. They were the favorites to win the World Series in 1994 before the strike. So there was just a lot of great stuff happening at that time. It was a lot of fun to be covering sports, and I would get in a Shea 106 car. I think we had like a Ford Escort with the Shay logo on it, and I would drive to Montreal and cover a Canadians game and go down in the locker room after, get some tape, and then drive home and be at work the next day was great. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:11:23 And I'm also thinking back to 92, 93, 94. I never would have ever thought that I'd ever be a fan or pay attention to the AAA links, but they were an affiliate of the Montreal Expos, so I always had my eye on what could be coming up and going down at that point. And you did some play by play. What's it like to do baseball. Mark Sutcliffe (Guest) 00:11:44 Play by play, so much fun at that time. That was really my dream job. I think my dream job was to be the Montreal exposed play by play announcer. But of course, the job was taken. Dave Van Horn, legendary now in the hall of Fame, just retired last year from the Florida Marlins, Miami Marlins now. And so I did everything I could to have the opportunity to do some play by play for the links. And CFRA did about 20 games on the radio every year, and Rogers TV, the community channel, did about 20 games as well. So I would get to broadcast about 30 or 40 games every year on either TV or radio. And I did that. It was different situations sort of year in and year out, but I did that for the better part of 1213 years, part time on the side, and it was so much fun because I love baseball and I don't think there's anything on radio quite like a ball game. It's a special kind of intimate conversation between the baseball announcer and the audience. It's a different pace from other sports. And so I just relish that. I loved it. It was a blast. It's not a great lifestyle being a major League play by play announcer, because you're basically working every day in the evening. You never see your family. But when I was single and in my 20s, it was kind of my dream job. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:13:06 You see, I actually had that job, but it was a self created job. It was called being a professional fan. I would pay myself to go out on the road and see the Expos because of course they were going to win that year, and 94 and whatnot. did you ever think about moving to Montreal to do radio? Mark Sutcliffe (Guest) 00:13:22 Yeah, Montreal or Toronto. And I think there was a time when I would have jumped at the chance to go to Montreal. I love the city. I spent a lot of time there covering Canadians and expose games and got to know some of the people at the radio stations there who were also covering the games. And it just never worked out like I would have happily at that time in my life, I would have happily moved to Montreal and I wanted to be in a city that had major League sports teams, but it just never worked out. Sometimes timing and luck are part of the equation and it just never materialized for me. So I ended up staying in Ottawa, doing a bunch of business things and then continuing my radio journey with CFRA and 1310 News, which is now City news and having a great time with that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:14:07 Yeah. So after the 1990s began to sort of fizzle out sports wise and you work your way through the 90s, how did you spend your time on air? Mark Sutcliffe (Guest) 00:14:16 I started doing some entrepreneurial stuff. I was involved in the launch of the Ottawa Business Journal newspaper. I was one of the co founders, and so for a couple of years I focused on that, but I always kind of kept involved in radio. And Mark Mayhew became the general manager of the Chum radio stations in Ottawa, including CFRA. And I had a great relationship with him. He was a mentor, terrific guy, and we would chat regularly. And whenever I was sort of less busy with my entrepreneurial stuff, I had a home on CFRA, which was great, and I would come in maybe for a couple of years, do the afternoon show, or I would fill in for Steve Maley, who is now doing the morning show in Lowell Green. I'd be there kind of regular replacement. And then eventually I ended up going back full time, trying to think the timeline on that. I became part of the succession plan there because they had Steven Lowell and they were approaching sort of the normal retirement years. And Mark and his successor, Chris Gordon, wanted me to be around so that as they were taking more and more time off and maybe one day they would retire, I could slide into one of those roles. And so that was the plan for a while. And I had a great time. And for whatever reason, you kind of have this love affair with radio generally. And I had always thought I was going to be doing a lot of sports, but I ended up being sort of streamed into news because that's where the opportunities were. And I've always been interested in the news and always followed politics in my community very closely. So I ended up doing a lot of talk shows. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:15:47 And you really do fit Ottawa quite well because we got the sports down. You're in the middle of radio stations, like whether it's 1310 CFRA. Those are pretty big radio stations. You've got a business background, you got the auto a business Journal, you know, politicians. I'm careful here not to say that you're intertwined with politicians because that could mean just about anything. But that's really the way Ottawa works. These are the facets of Ottawa. You're very Ottawa marks that cliff. Mark Sutcliffe (Guest) 00:16:17 Yeah, I've lived my whole life here. My parents aren't from Ottawa. They're immigrants to Canada. But I've lived my whole life here. I probably will never live anywhere else. I didn't expect it to play out that way. But I now have very deep roots and deep connections here and love the city, love the community. And you're right, Ottawa. It's become, over the last 10-15 years, a much bigger city, population over a million now. And we've got an NHL franchise now. We had it for 25 years, but it still has a little bit of that smaller community kind of feeling where people know each other well and where they're connected. It's not a big city like Toronto. It's still a very connected, small community in a lot of ways. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:17:05 But if I add in Hull and maybe we'll add in Gatineau and we'll toss in Kanata and then Nepean- This is not a small place. Mark Sutcliffe (Guest) 00:17:15 No, it's a big geographic area, big community, challenging to govern. I think the city of Ottawa was amalgamated and it's a big city. You could fit Toronto, Montreal and Calgary geographically into the city of Ottawa. That's how big the city is. So there's a rural part of it, there's an urban part, there's a suburban part. So it's challenging. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:17:39 I played a couple of years of hockey for the East Ottawa Vanier Voyagers, and from that managed to really understand the city of Ottawa because we would have to travel to various arenas, all sorts of crazy hours. And my parents were like, Why did you sign up for this team again? And the coach would come in the room and he would threaten us and say that if we didn't get our act together, Aaron Ward, who is a year younger than us, would be replacing us at a moment's notice. Mark Sutcliffe (Guest) 00:18:04 Yeah, that's a great way to get to know the city is through the hockey arenas all over the place. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:18:09 Actually, I want to wind it back just a little bit 1995, because you mentioned Lowell Green, and there were moments when you did have to go in for that show. Could you tell everybody what that show was like? Because everyone listened to it. But if you had to go fill that in, we're getting a different show today. And I especially remember the referendum in 1995 and just how passionate he was and how everybody really did gravitate to 580 CFRA. So in that era, what was it like to have to fill in for them? Mark Sutcliffe (Guest) 00:18:37 It wasn't easy, I'll tell you that. So, as you say, Lol is a talk show pioneer, right? I mean, if you go back to the 70s in talk radio in North America, Lowell was one of those big voices, those big presences on the radio, like a Rush Limbaugh, that kind of really engaged, active, call in show where the entire community is gathering, everybody's listening. People are just loving the interactions he's having with callers, some of them friendly, some of them not so friendly. The debate, the discussion, the positioning of the issues. And I genuinely think anybody in Ottawa, including federal politicians, were either listening to the show or having somebody listen to the show to know what was going on in the minds of the residents, because that's the role that Lowell played in the community was to bring everybody together and have that discussion. And he was so good at it. He had a natural talent for it. But I can tell you as well, he put a lot of thought into what he was going to say and the approach that he was going to take to every single show. He was a performer and a pro, like he was a true professional doing that show. So when I would step in for him, of course, it was a different show. I'm not lowgreen. I don't have that big personality. I'm not as opinionated as he is. I'm not as confrontational as he is. So I took a different approach and I acknowledged it right up front. We had some fun with the fact I wasn't low, and I just tried to, as much as possible, give people a chance to talk and have the same conversation but not pretend to be Lowell or anything like him. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:20:17 And you've also had to cover some things as well. So I mean, I get the idea that if news breaks, somebody finds a cliff, let's bring him on because he's probably involved somewhere in Ottawa and has his eyes on it. So I'll mention the death of the Princess of Wales, which really touched anybody- I know that occurred across the ocean in Paris, but you have a cell phone and now you're going to be doing some coverage. Mark Sutcliffe (Guest) 00:20:39 Yeah. So I got called into the radio station. I happen to live near the radio station at that time. And when the news broke that she had been in this accident in Paris, I got called into the radio station and I went on the air and we were in all news station at that time, news talk. And so if there was breaking news, we were going to cover it. So we dumped out of the regular programming and I was live on the air bringing in various reports from our wire services. We could use CNN audio at the time as well. We were a CNN affiliate, so I was using some of that. We were getting people on the phone from Paris who were near the scene, and I basically was on the air for a couple of hours while this was going on, and then we got the bulletin that she had passed away and the reaction we started taking phone calls from people, and the reaction was immediate. And I'm sure you remember, Matt, the emotional reaction, the connection that people felt to that story here was someone who they'd never met before and who was a member of the Royal family living a very different life from all of us. But for whatever reason, people felt this deep bond with her. And when that happened, there was just an outpouring of grief and other emotions, and people started calling in and sharing their feelings about it. And I can't remember exactly how late I stayed on the air, but it was a long night, and we ended up talking about that for days to come. But I'll never forget being on the air when that bulletin came across and learning that she had passed away and that her life was over. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:22:09 And the shooting on Parliament Hill, I mean, we think Ottawa is a place to go and visit and learn all about our nation's capital, but stuff does happen there. And there was a shooting, and you found yourself in the middle of that, too. Mark Sutcliffe (Guest) 00:22:22 I'll never forget that day as well. Of course, Nathan Cerillo died that day, and everybody remembers him and has this extraordinary attachment to his story. I think I had just finished my show that day when the news started to break and we heard the news and we just immediately switched. It was actually during Lowell's show. Lowell was still broadcasting at that time. And so Steve Lowell and I basically were on the air together for the next I'm going to say four or 5 hours covering the story as it was unfolding. And the thing I will always remember about that, it turned out it was one shooter. And by the way, the radio station is, I'm going to say 700 meters from Parliament Hill in the Bywood market, so very close by, and there was a lockdown kind of put into effect. It ended up being a story of one shooter, but we didn't know what was going on until that was confirmed. And I remember there were undercover and plain closed policemen who were on the streets of Ottawa responding to the situation. And there were some bystanders who mistook them for armed combatants and thought that there were multiple people with guns in the downtown core, and there was a lot of fear about that. And then the other thing that happened that day, Matt, that was interesting is we started getting calls from American media outlets asking for us to share our perspective with them. So I ended up doing interviews with radio stations in the US. And then that night I was on Bill O'Reilly show on Fox News. They arranged for a camera to be set up somewhere. And I went and stood in front of the camera, and I was the first guest on Bill O'Reilly show on Fox News that night, sort of telling the story of what was happening in Ottawa. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:24:08 And of course, today they would just ask you to get a Skype connection. Mark Sutcliffe (Guest) 00:24:11 Exactly. Back in those days, you had to hustle somewhere, get a studio or get an uplink of some kind. And now you can just interview anybody on Zoom. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:24:22 In just a second, Mark tells us why he decided to do a podcast. We also touch on the biggest story out of Ottawa in 2022, which is the trucker convoy. And I offer up some silly trivia, like how many Canadian Prime ministers have appeared on Mark's show? And who do you think the biggest download is? I'll give you a spoiler. The political people get less downloads than the figure skaters. And if you're a political junkie like me, you love to have the television on CPAC for all the latest parliamentary shenanigans. You know, it took about 300 episodes, but we finally have a CPAC personality on this show. You know the podcast has made it when. That, and you have transcription. And there's a copy waiting for you at soundoffpodcast.com. Mary Anne Ivison (VO) 00:25:09 Transcription for the sound of the podcast is powered by Poddin. Your podcast is an SEO goldmine. We help you to dig out. Start your free trial now at Poddin.io. Tara Sands (VO) 00:25:20 The Sound Off podcast. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:25:22 Who watches CPAC? I watch CPAC. Mark Sutcliffe (Guest) 00:25:25 Yay. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:25:26 Tell me why we should watch CPAC. Are you on CPAC now, by the way? Mark Sutcliffe (Guest) 00:25:29 Yeah. So I do two things for CPAC. I used to do a weekly show every Sunday morning, sort of Sunday morning political chat, like so many other shows, only we would take calls from the audience as well. We'd have a panel of journalists, but we'd also get input from the audience, which was fun. I did that for a number of years. The two things I do now are whenever there's an election, we do a show called Have Your Say. And basically every weekday during the election, we're on the air for 2 hours taking calls from all over the country to get reaction to what's happening on the election campaign that day. So it's a great show for political junkies. It's a great show for anybody who's interested in how Canadians are reacting to the unfolding election campaign. And I've done that now, I guess, for maybe the last four or five elections. And it's been incredibly interesting and fun to do. And then the other thing I do is I do a daily podcast that's about 20 minutes long called CPAC Today in Politics. And so every day I have a journalist come on and we talk about the big political stories of the day in Canada. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:26:33 So you're the perfect person to answer this question because you've been answering phones for so many years and talking to the callers. And I don't think it matters if it's CPAC or if it's CFRA. But is it getting weirder? Mark Sutcliffe (Guest) 00:26:47 It's definitely changed. So I can remember when I was doing talk shows on CFRA in the 1990s. You'd throw out a question. I remember one day we were talking about the Robert Latimer case, the Saskatchewan farmer whose daughter Tracy was severely disabled, and he chose to end her life. And it became this big ethical and legal debate in the country. And we had ten phone lines at that time, Matt. And the second somebody hung up, somebody else would call in and there would be nine callers on hold while you're talking to one person on the air. And that was a big topic, obviously. But, you know, on any given day, if you on my show, on Lowell show, there were tons of callers. We would often finish the show and have six, seven people on hold who had been waiting for 40 minutes to get on the air and didn't get their chance that day. And there was often a busy signal. By the time I stopped doing phone in shows, it had changed a lot. I think a couple of things happened. Number one, people just don't talk on their phones as much anymore, right? We call these devices phones, but we actually use them as phones maybe 5% of the time. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:27:56 It would be faster for you to use the Rotary phone at your parents'house to call in to figure out how to do it on Apple iPhone. Mark Sutcliffe (Guest) 00:28:04 People just don't talk on the phone as much. That's one thing. And I think the other thing is there are so many other outlets now for people social media and chat rooms and all these other ways that people can have their say. Whereas before social media, if you had an opinion about something, you either wrote a letter to the editor of the daily newspaper or you called a talk show. Those are the two ways you can make your voice heard. Now, everybody can be on Twitter or Facebook sharing their opinions about everything. So the inclination to call into a radio station or a television station that's doing a talk show and wait on hold for maybe 30 minutes before you get to go on the air for four or five minutes and have an interaction with the host, just not as many people are doing that anymore. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:28:48 So again, I've got the perfect person to answer this question because you're connected to really all the facets of Ottawa. And we're about two or three months removed from the trucker convoy protest. And so it all takes place on Wellington, which again, is the intersection of politics of Ottawa and civics, but it's also the center of Ottawa. So as we look back on that, how do you grade what happened? How strange was it? What happened exactly? And how can we look at this in the rear view mirror and just put a little normal context into it? Mark Sutcliffe (Guest) 00:29:24 So I think there's a couple of things there, Matt. So first of all, it was very strange. As a resident of Ottawa and I don't live very far from downtown. It was really unsettling to have this going on and for it to be stretching on for so long and to feel like there was no control over the situation, that the people who are occupying downtown Ottawa were in charge. And I kept thinking of that movie, Captain Phillips, where Pirates take over the ship captain by Tom Hanks's character, and that one of the Pirates says, I'm the captain now. And that's a little bit what it felt like was that the people in charge of this protest were running downtown Ottawa and the police in the city were not. One of the things in my career, Matt, is for whatever reason, I don't feel a deep attachment to the news stories that I cover. I'm a little bit more of a dispassionate observer. That's just my inclination. I find things more interesting and fascinating than I find them emotional or I'm just not a polarizing sort of person. But I felt really strongly about what was happening in my city. And I found myself watching the news more and more and wanting to know what was going on and wanting it to be over. And I think it's one more example of how our world has changed in the past 20 years. I mean, you've spent a lot of time in Otawa. I remember my dad used to work at the Department of National Defense in downtown Ottawa. There was a road under that building. So before the Oklahoma City bombing, before the first World Trade Center bombing, I used to always think, like, after those events happened, I used to always think, what's stopping somebody from parking a car under that building? There's a road under our National Defense headquarters. There is not a road under the Pentagon that people can just drive on on their way to work or to go shopping. In downtown Ottawa, you used to be able to drive your car up on Parliament Hill just without anybody stopping you. We would go there and look at the Christmas lights every December. There was always this sort of relaxed attitude towards security in Canada with the idea that we're Canada, those things don't happen here. And even going back to the shooting on Parliament Hill in 2015, when that event happened, it was the kind of thing that nobody would imagine happening, right. Somebody shooting someone at the war Memorial and then making it all the way, not just onto Parliament Hill but into the Parliament buildings with a gun. And I don't think anybody was ready for that. And again, this time around, I don't think anybody was ready for the idea that a group of demonstrators would not just come into the downtown core and do a demonstration and then leave peacefully, but that they would stick around and start building structures and having a hot tub and basically planning to stay for as long as they could. Nobody was ready for that. And I think we need to adapt to a very different kind of era in politics now where more of these events are going to happen, and we need to be prepared for them. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:32:17 And I did have a few people that I spoke to in the area. By the way, one of the podcasts we work with, we had to delay the release of it for a month because there was just too many honking horns. I think about all the levels of government in that area and everybody who's responsible for the area. And I'm thinking that it's like baseball and three outfielders converged on a fly ball for the third out of the inning. The ball hits the ground. Everybody looks at each other to go, what now? And then it takes another 45 minutes to get out of the inning. So you understand that baseball analogy, then I think you understand what happened in Ottawa. And I get the feeling that that's what it was. Mark Sutcliffe (Guest) 00:32:56 I think there's one more thing, too, Matt, which is that there have been incidents in recent memory in Canada and elsewhere of the police being accused of overreacting to a situation. So the G 20 summit in Toronto, that kind of event where the police cracked down too soon and there was tear gas and there were confrontations and the batons came out and somebody got hurt. And I think the mindset, for better or for worse, the mindset of the authorities with the awareness that this protest was coming to Ottawa when the trucks were on the highway heading to the capital, the mindset was let's not end up in that situation where we're facing an inquiry six months from now on why we responded and not be accused of police brutality and violence. Let's not do that. Let's be accommodating. Let's cooperate with them. Let's figure out and they just didn't anticipate that if they were so cooperative, the end result would be an occupation. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:33:53 And you triggered a memory, the Sargent Pepper incident, why did you want to start a podcast called Digging Deep? Mark Sutcliffe (Guest) 00:34:01 So I always had this idea. I always had great guests on my show. And if I had the chance to talk to them on the phone, if they were a phone guest or in this green room before they came on the air or even in the studio during a commercial break, we always had these terrific off air conversations. And you know what that's like? You know, your politician comes in, an Olympic medalist comes in, and you have this great conversation. And then when you go on the air, you got a limited amount of time. Normally, an interview on a talk show is eight to ten minutes. You've got a limited amount of time. So you've got to zero in on the topic of the day, especially in the 24 hours news cycle. Now it's got to be the topic that's related to whatever is going on in the news. What's going to be the clip from this interview we're going to play on the newscast next hour. So I was doing all these very short eight minute interviews, usually about the same thing over and over again. And yet off the air, I was getting to know another side of some of these people and finding them really fascinating. And I just thought it would be great to have these sort of longer, timeless conversations with some of the people that you're used to seeing in the news on your television, on the radio, having longer conversations and really getting to know them better, telling their whole story. And so I gave it a shot. I decided I was going to do ten episodes. I picked a bunch of people. Some of the first few people I interviewed, former Governor General David Johnston, Daniel Dale, the CNN fact checker, who was followed by millions of people when he was fact checking Donald Trump, Tessa Virtue, the Olympic gold medalist figure skater, and did these interviews with them. And they were even better than I thought they would be. And I just had such a blast talking to them and learning from them. And there were so many things that came out that you didn't hear in other interviews. And so I decided to keep going. Really, it's just been fantastic. I've thoroughly enjoyed it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:35:55 Do you have an alarm Bell that goes off in your head that says, okay, this conversation is going to wind down because these are deep conversations, but do you have an idea in your head about how long you want it to be? Mark Sutcliffe (Guest) 00:36:08 So I usually start out thinking it's going to be about an hour, and it ends up being longer than that because we just get going, right? Like you end up in this great conversation and goes all these places. I do a lot of research before the guest comes on, and I'll have ten or 20 questions or aspects of their life that I want to get into, you know, how this works. And then we'll end up talking about something I wasn't even expecting. And we'll go down that tangent for a while, and then what will end up happening is half the questions I had on my list we don't even get to. So that's part of the fun of it for me, too, is inevitably you end up talking about something you never expected and you learn something about the person that they rarely ever talked about before because they've never had the opportunity. Maybe it was some job they had before they became famous or some experience they've had or what their expectations are for the future or something. And you end up having a great conversation about that. And you have to shelve a whole bunch of other stuff. But I always feel like I'm running out of time even after an hour of talking with these guests. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:37:11 How many former prime ministers have you had on so far? Mark Sutcliffe (Guest) 00:37:15 Two, Joe Clark and Jean. And the amazing thing, every single one because I launched the podcast during the pandemic and because many of the guests aren't in Ottawa, every episode of Digging Deep has been recorded. Like what you and I are doing right now, where we're looking at each other over the Internet and recording the interview. We're not in the same room, but Jean Katie actually came to my house to record the podcast. So he came to our home, met my wife and my kids and sat in this very room and I set everything up with two microphones. And it was kind of a surreal moment, having a former Prime Minister of Canada sitting in my office talking about his life. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:37:56 So when you bring him in, were you using Zoom to record or do you find another way to do it? Mark Sutcliffe (Guest) 00:38:01 No, I just recorded it on a digital recording device. Yeah. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:38:06 This is now the kind of conversation that podcasters have. Mark Sutcliffe (Guest) 00:38:10 Absolutely. Yeah. And then, of course, I was paranoid that I'm not a big fan of digital. I'm old enough to remember when I first started working at Shay. I was typing out my scripts on a typewriter. I remember when we got the first computer at the radio station and we would make a carbon literal carbon copy with carbon paper for the producer. And I remember, of course, recording on cassettes. Right. Recording on cassettes and recording on real to real. And I'm still nervous recording anything digitally because I can't see the thing turning right. And I'm always worried that I'm going to finish the interview and there's going to be nothing there. So I was very nervous. I think I even had a backup recording going with Jeancratching here because there was no way we were going to have that conversation twice. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:38:57 You know, that's a very genuine thing to do, right? To make sure that it's recording and to make sure your hands run everything. And Millennials and Gen Z, they're totally chill with their squad. Caster your Zencaster or your Zoom. Everything's great in technology land. Do you know what your biggest episode is? Mark Sutcliffe (Guest) 00:39:15 I don't know what my biggest episode is. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:39:17 Tessa virtue. Mark Sutcliffe (Guest) 00:39:18 Okay, that doesn't surprise me. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:39:21 So why is that so big? Mark Sutcliffe (Guest) 00:39:23 Well, I think she has a huge fan base, so that's a big part of it. I think she's an incredibly nice person. She's absolutely lovely. My daughter is in competitive gymnastics and it was during COVID, so she was home from school, and so my daughter came over and I wanted to introduce her to an Olympic gold medalist via Zoom. And she came over and Tessa was incredibly kind and supportive to my daughter Kate, and gave her lots of encouraging words. And that's just who she is. She's a absolutely wonderful human being and really smart. You can look at an athlete like that and think she's really talented. But her gold medals and Scott Moyer his gold medals, their gold medals together are the result of a lot of hard work, of course, some talent, but a lot of very strategic thinking as well, and a lot of that. We were able to drill into that in the episode of the podcast. They thought very strategically about their careers and about how they approach practice, about how they approach competition, and they were really smart about it. And they would practice how to recover from a fall instead of trying to avoid falling. They would practice how to recover from a fall. And there were just so many life lessons like that that we were able to pull out from that conversation. I work with business clients now. I coach entrepreneurs and CEOs, and I know a lot of my clients really found those lessons really applicable to leading a business, which I thought was really interesting. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:40:53 Also shout out to Chris Jones, another very big episode that you have. I'm constantly looking at the traffic on this stuff to see where it's coming from. Mark Sutcliffe (Guest) 00:41:02 I know, and thank you. You've been a huge support and resource for me and the people that helped me with the podcast during this whole journey. So I'm very grateful for that because we would not be doing this without your help and guidance and wisdom and expertise and support. So thank you. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:41:21 What's been the big takeaway for you since you started this? And by the way, you started it right at the time when everybody started a podcast like March 2020 and April 2020, you can see the sound off podcast taken off. But when we look today, and I just saw this number today, a lot of people have abandoned them. A lot of people have given it up. Mark Sutcliffe (Guest) 00:41:40 You've kept yours going. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:41:41 You've done one every week. You've been incredibly disciplined, which means an absolute lot when you do a podcast to be consistent and to stay on brand and consistent with your message every week. But how has it shaped you with your business and your networking and the people that you're meeting? Mark Sutcliffe (Guest) 00:41:59 It's been really great, actually. I love it. A friend of mine said to me at one point, what's the business model for this? Like, how are you going to get paid? And I remember saying, first of all, if any one of these people asked me to lunch, I would go in a heartbeat and I would pay for the lunch. Just getting to have these conversations with people has been amazing. So the opportunity to have that one on one dialogue with world famous athletes, musicians, politicians, business people, leaders of all kinds, authors, subject matter experts. I've learned so much from that and I've gained so much from that experience personally. And I am able to apply a lot of that to the work that I do as an entrepreneur and as a business coach now, which is where I spend most of my time. But I think it's been great for my brand. I think the people in my universe, business owners, and CEOs probably look at that and think it's interesting that I get to talk to so many fascinating people. And I have created a little bit of a revenue stream from it because I have a couple of sponsors. It's not the way I'm going to retire, but it still helps pay some of the bills, which is great. I would do it just for the love of doing it. If it works out that that turns into lots of listeners and an income stream. Fantastic. But I would keep doing it just to have the chance to talk to these people and share their lessons with the existing audience that I have, because there are so many terrific lessons from these people's life stories and their experiences that I don't think you can find in a lot of other places. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:43:32 And I know some people are hearing this, and right now they're thinking, oh, here's a radio guy who's doing a podcast. But I think the reason you do very well at this is the time that you spent working at the Ottawa Citizen. And I think newspapers and writing have so much more to do with podcasts and trying to capture a story than radio does. The only thing you have in common with radio is just the microphone. And you were talking about these conversations that you have with people. Okay, they're going to be six, seven, eight minutes. We're going to get to the crux of it. We're in the now. But when you have to capsule-ize a story, that has more to do with radio and getting the story out for the next morning for the Ottawa Citizen. Mark Sutcliffe (Guest) 00:44:09 Yeah, maybe so. I never thought of it that way. But it is very much storytelling. It's long form storytelling. It's almost like magazine writing, even more so than newspapers. Right? It's long form storytelling, for sure. So that's a great point. I never thought of it that way. But I think you're right. That it is. I mean, I almost think of this as chapters of a book. Each episode is like a chapter of a book. And it's not like a typical radio interview at all. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:44:36 No. It does have more in common with magazines than radio, of course, outside of the microphones that we're speaking into now. But, Mark, thanks so much for joining me on the podcast. I don't think I missed anything. I think I got most of it. How deep did I dig? Out of ten? Mark Sutcliffe (Guest) 00:44:49 You're Digging Deep, Matt. This is great. It's so much fun. And I've been listening to your podcast. And again, I'm so grateful for the support that you have given to me and to the Digging Deep, the little team of people that I have helping me with Digging Deep. I'm really grateful for this opportunity to chat. It's been a pleasure. Tara Sands (VO) 00:45:06 The Sound Off podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski. Social media by Courtney Krebsbach. Another great creation from the Soundoff Media Company. There's always more at soundoffpodcast.com.