Jeff Woods returns to the show. He was a guest way way back in 2016 in Episode 2. Back then we spoke about his (then) new book, Radio, Records and Rockstars. Shortly after came the creation of a successful radio show and podcast. In this episode you will hear his process of creating an episode, the non-use of AI in research, and the influence of the late Bob Mackowycz on his career, and Woods' affinity for new music and live performances. Jeff discusses his experience in radio and podcasting, as well as his new book about relationships and sexuality. Additionally, he highlights the motivation behind his book and the importance of promoting acceptance and understanding of diverse sexualities. The New Book is here! The Kickstarter is underway! Just launched! Kickstarter to fund my second non-fiction book, the story of which you’ll find, along with so-called “backer rewards”, on the Jeff Woods Being Bi Kickstarter. It’s only on for a limited time. Link above. If you like what you see, please share. And thanks for your support. In 2018, after fifty years of living in fear, I came out as bi.  Because I felt it the right thing to do.  For me.  And then to begin to take a step from ally, to card carrying bisexual.  And it started to feel right to add the word activist to that.  A role of shedding a big bright light on the least talked about community in the rainbow.  My thinking?  That if the tattooed neck-to-knee motorbike riding rock radio DJ can do it, perhaps other men can do it too. The catalyst for the book is Jeff's most recent podcast, The Blue Hotel. Many of the stories in the book are from the collection of interviews and stories from the show. Finally - if you are a program or content director at radio, please consider bringing this show on. You will get a full hour long version - the podcast you see below is a shorter form show you can also embed to your website. Compared to MOST years since the seventies, 1994 gave us so much more than most -- a year of some of the finest albums in rock, and one of the most impacting years in music. This is the podcast version of Jeff's weekly music radio show, charting around the world and enjoyed by music fans who love to hear what made artists tick, plus the stories behind the songs. This episode features an excerpt from Jeff's conversation with Jeff Buckley's mother, about her working with Chris Cornell to preserve the legacy of Buckley's music, plus we're hitting on all the heavy records of '94 from Grace to Superunknown, Vitalogy,The Division Bell, Wildflowers, Definitely Maybe, and so much more. A Transcription of the episode is available on our network site.

Back in August of 2020, I had Alan Cross on the show to talk about the issues facing the music industry in the wake of the pandemic. In 2022, we could have declared that music was back but we still didn't have any real numbers with so many people trying to make up for lost time, missed shows, and those forgotten tickets stored somewhere on the internet. In this episode, music geek Alan Cross sits down to tell us about some of the latest trends in music, why concert tickets are priced the way they are, who sets the prices and why some tours are being cancelled before they get started. Yes we talked about two of the biggest stories surrounding concerts: Taylor Swift's success and the U.S. Goverment's Ticketmaster/Live Nation Anti-Trust lawsuit. We also discussed two Canadian based music documentaries that radio junkies might be interested in, including Hate To Love: Nickleback and the CFNY: The Spirit of Radio. Alan appears in this documentary which features Hanna, Alberta's Nickelback. Unrelated to the above documentary, I was interviewed for a National Post article about Nickelback's legacy. In short - it's complicated. You might already be familiar with the venerable Ongoing History of New Music which started a long long time ago as a radio show, then a podcast version of the radio show was created about 10 years ago. Both the radio show and podcast do very well. Alan's latest podcast series is called Uncharted: Crime and Mayhem In the Music Industry.

Fellow Canadian history buffs, rejoice: Craig Baird is here. Actually, that call to action may not resonate with very many of you, but that's exactly why Craig Baird started his podcast. Canadian History Ehx is a show dedicated to proving that Canadian history isn't nearly as boring as everyone thinks. Sure, it may not be as long and storied as European or Asian history. Sure, it doesn't have the plethora of bloody battles that American history provides. But you're doing your country and yourself a disservice if you think that means there aren't tons of great stories in the Canadian history books. Unfortunately though, as Craig and I discuss, you may have to do a bit of digging to find them on your own. Which is what makes Craig's podcast so great: he does the digging for you. All you have to do is listen. Matt made reference in the episode to Craig having profiled his Great Aunt Senator Cairine Wilson from Ottawa. Here is the episode he wrote. Craig talks to me about the most interesting parts of Canadian history, including tales of little-known Indigenous battles and would-be revolutionaries, from the country's inception to present day. We also explore the failings of the Canadian education system in terms of actually teaching our history, as evidenced by Craig and I being taught completely different things about figures like Louis Riel. Depending on which province you grew up in, there's a lot of important details you might have missed, but thankfully Craig is here to fill in the gaps. If you want to hear more, check out Canadian History Ehx on Craig's website, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also follow Craig on Facebook, Twitter/X and Instagram. And as promised at the beginning of the episode, here's a Canadian Citizenship Test for you to fail. Transcription: Tara Sands (Voiceover)  00:02 The Sound Off Podcast. The show about podcast and broadcast starts now. Matt Cundill  00:13 My name is Matt, and I'm a history buff. Since an early age, I've always been fascinated by Indigenous history. Later it was the American Revolution, then the American Civil War, Henry the Eighth, the Spanish Civil War, and then I got to university and attained an appreciation for Canadian history. What it lacks in storied bloodshed, it makes up for in quirkiness and small acts of heroism. However, most Canadians don't have a grasp on the basics of Canadian history, let alone civics, which is why you get a pile of hosers and their bouncy castles showing up on the federal government's doorsteps to protest what their provincial governments had mandated. These people couldn't get 15 out of 20 on a Canadian citizenship test. And just to prove it, I put one in the shownotes for you to fail. I got 20 out of 20, by the way. But what better way to tell the stories of Canadian history than through podcast? Craig Baird has a podcast called Canadian History Ehx. It became part of Corus Entertainment's CuriousCast network, and you can hear the podcast content on the radio across the Corus radio network. And now, Craig Baird joins me from Edmonton, Alberta. Craig Baird  01:26 Originally, I have a degree in computer science, and so I used to build computer networks for the diamond mines up in the Northwest Territories. And I did that for a few years, and then I left that in about 2006 and I started working as a journalist. And I started in a small town called North Battleford, Saskatchewan as a sports reporter, and just kind of hopped around to small towns over the next, you know, 12 years or so. And my final place was, I was the city hall reporter in Regina, the Regina Leader Post. And then about- yeah, 2018-2019, I kind of started- I was just doing freelance stuff, and I started to kind of get into podcasting. I'd been listening to podcast since like 2010, and I- there wasn't a lot of Canadian history podcasts. So I kind of just decided to start one and see where it went. Matt Cundill  02:17 Tell me about the broadcast experience, and specifically to North Battleford. Craig Baird  02:21 Well, North Battleford, it's a- it's a cute little town, it was very strange because I was so used to working in, you know, a place- and my- where I worked was in Edmonton. And so I'd get calls from the diamond mine saying, our computers are down, or the whole email system's down. And it was just so much stress. And I didn't like it. And so when I got hired to do the job in North Battleford, I was a sports reporter. So I remember I was watching the hockey game from, like, their little Skybox in the arena. And I was like, I'm getting paid to like watch a hockey game, and then I go and write about it. Like, this is amazing. And I was immediately hooked on just being able to write about stuff. And it was actually through journalism that I kind of really started to get into history, because I started- when I was editor of various small town newspapers, I would go to the old newspapers and take things out of there and be like, hey, this happened this week in 1950-whatever. Matt Cundill  03:12 It's fascinating that you mentioned small towns and small town newspapers. So here you are, you're recording history, essentially, by being a journalist. What did you see? And still to this day, what do you see in these in these small towns that Canadians just don't know about? Craig Baird  03:28 I think a big thing is the history, because when we talk about history, we talk about, you know, Toronto and Ottawa, or out west here, Calgary, Edmonton. You know, we always focus on the big cities, and we don't look at the history of these small towns. And these small towns have a lot of very interesting history. I mean, even the town that I'm in right now, Stony Plain, we have a Sheriff who chained a train to a railroad, and there's a statue of him. And it's such a very cool story. But you don't hear about it, because it's a small little town. And so there's all these wonderful histories in small towns that people just don't hear about. And you have these beautiful history books that these towns have created, and it talks about the people who lived in these towns, and I love small town history. And in many ways, I find it much more interesting than, you know, the history of a big city. Matt Cundill  04:20 How do you get the documentation and the stories for this? Do you have to go to a local library, or is it word of mouth? How do you get the information on this? Craig Baird  04:29 Well, it's just over time, I've been able to kind of get more and more information in my head about what happened in Canada. And I mean, I use a lot of online tools. The wonderful thing about the age we live in is that, for example, small town histories, there are hundreds of small town history books that have been scanned in, and you can read them. And they're such a wonderful tool for finding unique stories. And then I use things like newspapers.com. And so I'll be researching something on newspapers.com, looking at the actual news paper and then I'll be like, oh, what's this story? And you kind of follow this story. So I just kind of- I like meander around, and I find things that interest me, and then I write about them and hope that they interest other people. Matt Cundill  05:11 Why is there a perception- and this has been going on for years and years and years- why is there a perception that Canadian history is so boring? Craig Baird  05:22 I think it's because we have these- it's kind of like two parents, we have the United Kingdom and the United States. And we see their history is much more interesting. The United Kingdom history, you know, going back 1000 years to the Battle of Hastings, and then before that with Vikings and the Romans, and, you know, there's so much history there. And then the United States where we know so much about their history, because it's being blasted to us all the time. I think that more Canadians can name a bunch of Presidents than they can name the Prime Minister's. I mean, if you ask an average Canadian who William Lyon Mackenzie King us, a lot of them would be like, I don't know. And that was the man who served as Prime Minister longer than anybody else. But a lot of people don't know him. But in the United States, you know, ask them who FDR is. And a lot of people are like, oh, yeah, he was the president in the wheelchair, you know, World War Two, or whatever it is. And so people think that Canadian history is boring because of that, when it's not. You have to look for the stories, but they're there, and we have a fascinating history. And the thing is, I think because we want to separate ourselves from being Americans, we don't want to be talking about our history. And that's why things like the Heritage Minutes are so nice. It wasn't like, you know, rah, rah, rah, look at our history, it was just a little bit of, hey, here's one minute of our history, just to kind of whet the appetite. And then the Canada People's History, you know, was this amazing piece of work, where we really started to show our history. But it was something we never really did for a long time other than, you know, Pierre Burton, and various other things. Jack Granatstein comes to mind, by the way, as somebody who- I studied Canadian history at university. Yeah, it was considered to be a little bit more boring, but I think my takeaway in the end was that we just don't have enough wars to glorify things. And the wars that we do have were really the British in 1812- we won, by the way- and, you know, the Great War, which was fought under the Union Jack, and the Second World War as well. Yeah, I think that's very much the case. I just did an episode, actually, about the Montreal parliament building being burned to the ground. And you mentioned, you know, the War of 1812. And you'll get a lot of Canadians saying, hey, we burned down the White House. And it's like, well, no, we- we didn't, the British did. But you know, we like to kind of latch on to that. And like you said, it was- you know, Canadians did have a big role in the war of 1812. But it was very much a British versus American war, and we were part of it. And we don't have that huge war history. We have various, you know, resistances, like Northwest Resistance and the Red River Resistance. But we don't have anything huge. We don't have a Revolutionary War, we don't have a Civil War. And that is obviously what gets attention. War is something that people, you know, will latch on to, because it's dramatic, and there's a lot to it. And people will look at Canadian history and be like, well, we didn't really have any war, so it's kind of boring. All we did was sign a piece of paper. And it's like, well, no, that's not what happened. We had the 1837-38 rebellions, we had the burning down of the parliament buildings, we had, you know, this long road to get to Confederation. Yeah, it was the signing of a paper, but there's a lot more to it than that. And that's what with Canadian history is a lot of people don't really look beyond the quick facts, I guess. Matt Cundill  08:40 It's a lot of political discourse that goes- seems to go down in history. 1837 rebellions, yes, there was a burning down of the parliament buildings as well that came out of that. And a lot of smaller stuff. Winnipeg general strike, for instance. That is well documented and quite talked about to this day in Winnipeg, people do know what it is. Do you think we're teaching history properly in schools? Craig Baird  09:05 I think the problem is that we're too- too large of a country. And so our history is segmented. Where did you grow up? Matt Cundill  09:12 Montreal. Craig Baird  09:13 The history you were taught is going to be very different from the history that I was taught in Alberta. When I was growing up, especially in social studies in high school, there was a lot of about Louis Riel and the Northwest Resistance, and the northwest- or the Red River Resistance. And I was taught that Louis Riel was insane. And he rose up against the government and he was treasonous. And obviously there is much more to the story than that. I was never taught about the 1837-38 rebellions. I had no idea those happened until I started looking into history myself. And I imagine for you in Montreal, your history that you were taught was very different, it would be much more Eastern focused, whereas mine was much more Western focused. And I think that we do have a problem with teaching our history, because (a) we don't make it interesting. We don't really focus on a lot of the interesting things. We talked about Confederation. You know, I had- at one point I had a teacher come in, who was a substitute teacher, who said that Confederation happened from west to east in that order. And I was like, no, it didn't. East, and then went out west, and then like Newfoundland was the last place, like it jumped all over the place. So we don't teach it well enough. And we're too segmented in where we are, in to what history we teach. And that's unfortunate, because it creates kind of a broken history, and you don't get the cohesive look of it, which I think helps make it much more interesting. Matt Cundill  10:38 So I was taught the history of Quebec in Canada. And I think at the time, it felt like a really government-regulated course. The government issued the exam. It's bizarre, and Quebec is being taught a separate history from the rest of the country. Craig Baird  10:56 Yeah, I mean, out west, I had no idea what the Quiet Revolution was. I was- again, it was something I had to learn on my own. And, you know, when I was growing up out west, I would have been about 15 when the 1995 referendum happened. And obviously, where I was, it was very anti-Quebec, and in many ways, Alberta still is, but- so I think that influences the history that we learn. Our history was much more English focused, you know, the English won the battle of the Plains of Abraham, and things like that. And you know, General Wolf, and we didn't really learn about the Quebec side of it, or about New France or anything like that. But especially we also- it's changed now, I will admit that it's changed now. But when I was growing up, there was very little Indigenous history that we were taught, beyond, you know, Louis Riel and the northwest resistance. Matt Cundill  11:46 It's funny you mention the '95 referendum, I was in Edmonton at the time, when that was taking place. And I did feel that there was a disconnect between the people around me and, you know, how to experience that sort of thing. So as a Quebecer, I'm watching my province, go through this strife of perhaps separating from the country, and, you know, people in Alberta going, what's that about? And not really underst- understanding, you know, what's going on. And this is in the present moment. Craig Baird  12:15 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I heard many times people just saying, well, if they want to leave, let them leave. And it's like, there's much more to this than that. Like, it's- there's a long history that needs to be explained. And it really wasn't in schools. Matt Cundill  12:27 Somebody actually said that you are the hardest working man in podcasting. Which means I gotta ask you, tell me about your workday. So I'm glad you mentioned that. I'm just going to ask this question because I was looking at some archives the other day from 1909. They had the social book, and the social book was the phonebook before there were really phones in every home. And it listed the people in the home, it listed the address, but it also listed the receiving hours. So these people will receive Thursdays and Wednesdays, and I'm thinking to myself, what does that mean? Does that mean I can go over and visit? Craig Baird  12:34 My workday begins about 6am. The night before, I schedule my On This Day history posts on X, and then I get up the next day. 6am. And then I put up my Canada's Greatest Song poll questions, which we've been running for a while, these are things that I'll do. I'll do various polls, Canada's Greatest Structure, Canada's Greatest Wonder, just to kind of get people talking about Canada, about our culture, things in here. And then I take what I- has been scheduled on to Twitter. And I have to put that across eight different social media platforms, because I don't know which one is going to, like, reign supreme at the end of the day. So I have to like hedge my bets. And so I post on Facebook and Instagram and Threads all over the place. And then I start putting up some of my longer posts. Right now it's Black History Month, so I'm putting up posts about black Canadians. Today's posts will be about Violet King, who was the first female black lawyer in Canada. And then I start working on the podcast episodes. And usually that'll take me, you know, a few weeks of research, and then, you know, writing for a week or so. So everything is kind of well ahead of time. And then once I've done a bit of that, then I go to starting to work on my radio show, because there's a radio version of it now. And then once I'm done that, near the end of the day, I start working on the book that I have to finish for May. And so usually my day goes from about 6am to about 6pm. And I mean, I'm working from home, it's not like I'm working a hard job, I really love it. But it can be a very long day. And some days, you know, where I'm reading newspapers from 1910 for hours on end, it gets a bit mind numbing. That's such a product of a bygone era. It kind of reminds me of like in small towns, where they would have Saturday from 5 to 10pm, we will have power on. But otherwise we won't have power, because obviously they had their own generator, and they had to provide power from that generator. And it reminds me a lot of that, where it's like, we will have the phone at this time. Only call at this time. Matt Cundill  14:59 There's no one doing this. We're gonna call you an historian, because it's what you do, and you're physically doing it. Do you feel a sense of duty to be doing this? Craig Baird  15:09 I do. I mean, I love Canadian history. And I feel, like we mentioned before, that people see it as- as boring and not something that's interesting. And I'm really trying to work against that. And I think that people are starting to kind of latch on, like- you know, with the following that I have on social media, it shows that there are a lot of people out there who are very interested in Canadian history. And I really love it when I can post something, and somebody goes, oh, my God, I had no idea that that person was Canadian. And it's like, yeah, you know, we have this huge culture of people here, who go on to do a variety of things. And a lot of people other than, like, say, obviously, you know, Neil Young and Mike Myers and Joni Mitchell. People are like, yeah, we know they're Canadian. But people don't know that the woman who played Fonzi's grandmother, or that Jerry stole the marble rye from, or Happy Gilmore's grandmother, was born in Alberta. Or that the father on Different Strokes was born in Alberta. And so I really liked that people- Matt Cundill  16:07 Wait, wait. Conrad Bain was born in Alberta? Craig Baird  16:09 He was born in Lethbridge, yeah. Matt Cundill  16:11 Oh. Craig Baird  16:11 And so I like that. I like that people are like, oh, I had no idea this person was Canadian, or I didn't know about this, or this should be something taught in schools, or this should be a movie. And I really like that part of it, because it's really starting to educate people. And I try and present things in a relatively fun and interesting way. I don't try- I don't like to be too dry with what I put out there, because I think that helps a lot. And then people respond to it, and then, you know, each person goes, oh, maybe Canadian history isn't quite as boring as I thought it was. You know, changing minds one little post or one little episode at a time. Matt Cundill  16:43 Well, there's nothing boring. We just have boring storytellers out there. You're not boring, by the way. Craig Baird  16:49 Good to know. Tara Sands (Voiceover)  16:51 Transcription of the Sound Off Podcast is powered by the Podcast Super Friends, five podcast producers who get together to discuss podcasting. Sharpen your podcast and creation skills by following the show on the Sound Off Podcast's YouTube or Facebook page. Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  17:09 This podcast supports podcasting 2.0. So feel free to send us a boost if you're listening on a new podcast app. Find your new app now at Podcasting2.org/apps. That's Podcasting2.org/apps. Matt Cundill  17:26 As we record this, it's- you're at 534 episodes. That's pretty epic. And you look at the tools that are out there today, transcription tools, do you think this becomes a book or multiple books, or..? How do you look at the work you've done in terms of archiving it for the future as reference? Craig Baird  17:46 Well, I guess that's the problem with the age we live in, is that we're a very digital age. And so I've read things where they say, in 1000 years, this might be, like, seen as a dark age, because all of this digital stuff that we have doesn't last like, say, a book will. And every episode that I've done, I have a transcript on my website. So like, there is that there. And I think I figured out I've written like, 1.7 or 1.8 million words so far, which is on my website. And that's there. But it's not the same as you know, like, the books that I've got behind me by Pierre Burton. Those are gonna probably last a lot longer physically than what I've written. And I would like to have some kind of archive, obviously, I don't think I can print off everything that I've written, because it'll be a huge amount. But that's why I'm trying to move more into writing books as well, so that maybe I can preserve a bit of what I do. Matt Cundill  18:40 And your website, it's just built for, you know, the right SEO, because each episode you do has its own subject matter, very easy to Google and to find stuff and to research. Has anybody written you to make an alternate suggestion or revision or add to a story? Craig Baird  18:59 Oh yeah, I get emails every day now. Sometimes I'll get people emailing, saying, hey, this was my uncle, can you find information about him? And I'll be nice, and I'll say, well, I can. But this is what I do for a living now. So if you want to donate, that'd be great. $5, $10, whatever. And sometimes they're like, yeah, I'll do it, and sometimes they're like, well, I'm not going to pay for this. It's like, this is what I do for a living. I mean, I can't just do this for free. And other times, I'll get people who email and say, I love this story, thank you, or some will say, you know, there was also this to it, so people will add to it, which is great, because it shows that people are reading what I'm putting up and getting something out of it, but also helping to expand that knowledge base, and helping me learn things too, because I by no means know everything about Canadian history. There is a lot that I still have to learn. Matt Cundill  19:45 Have you gone back ever to add or subtract to an audio episode? Craig Baird  19:50 Early on, I think last year sometime, I was starting to go back to old episodes. Like, very early on, you know, they were like six minutes long. And I was like, we can expand this, we can make this bigger. And I stopped doing that when my show also got put onto the radio, because now I gotta write a podcast episode and a radio episode. So what I do now is I take an old episode of the podcast, and then I rewrite the whole thing, make it more in line with what I do now, and then record that for the radio. And then once I get that recording back from my producer, then I replace my old episode with that, and I replace the old transcript with that, because it's a much higher quality. And so that's kind of a slow process of what I'm doing now. Matt Cundill  20:31 Tell me about your relationship with CuriousCast. And I'll assume when you say radio, I'm going to assume that it's Corus radio stations, because that's where CuriousCast comes out of. Tell me how you got together with them, and how you work together to get Canadian history out over the airwaves. Craig Baird  20:46 Yeah, so CuriousCast contacted me in I think about July of 2022. And they were like, would you be interested in collaboration? And so I had a meeting with them. And they were like, you know, would you be interested in coming on to our network? And I was like, yes. Because I'd been doing this so long, and I was always wondering, like, I have so much content, I could never figure out why it was not being picked up by a network. And so when they said, would you like to do it? I said, absolutely, for sure. Sign me up. So I officially signed on to their network and signed the contract in about September of 2022, and then went on to their network. And it's been fantastic, because they've done a great job of really pushing the podcast, and getting it out to people. And then about October of last year, they said, we have a free spot on our radio networks on the weekends. Would you be interested in doing a radio show? And I said, sure. So originally, they were just taking my old episodes, which were about 20-25 minutes, and putting two together, and then airing that. But then they were starting to get through a lot of my more recent episodes. So I said, well, I can start writing episodes, specifically that are 40 minutes. So I'll take a 20 minute episode, and expand it to 40 minutes. And so CuriousCast has been great. I would say, like, CuriousCast has definitely changed my life with what I do. There were many times where I was working away on my podcast, and working long hours, and I was like, what am I doing? Like, where's this going? Is this gonna amount to anything? And so they've really helped with that, and really given a lot more oomph to my podcast. Even just talking about the quality, I feel like the quality has changed, and is much better than it used to be, with my editor going through it, and then with my audio producer going through it, and just making it a much better show. Matt Cundill  22:30 Is your producer Rob Johnson? Craig Baird  22:32 My producer is Rosalind Cooper. Matt Cundill  22:34 Okay. Craig Baird  22:35 I do know, Rob, he did some of my early episodes. Matt Cundill  22:38 Okay. You know, I was really thinking that for radio, this is kind of the model of how podcast was going to find its way in. I'm not surprised that it was Corus who came to you, because they already have a template for this type of show in the Ongoing History of New Music, with historian- and he does have a history degree from the University of Winnipeg- Alan Cross, who tells musical historical stories on the radio, and you're doing the same thing. It's all documented, and its Canadian history. And they've got the stations for it. So yeah, I totally get it. Craig Baird  23:16 Yeah, and I mean from their perspective, at the time, I think I had 400 and some odd episodes. So it was like suddenly, they had this huge back catalogue come onto their network, and they're able to put ads in and things like that. So definitely beneficial for them, but far more beneficial for me, I think. Matt Cundill  23:32 And you mentioned, you need to be paid for this. You've got Patreon. You've got Buy Me a Coffee, we can send money to your PayPal, there's so much we can do to support you. How do you look at the ways you can monetize? And when you answer this question, if you could just sort of think about other podcasters, who are sitting there on ideas, and feeling they can't do it. Craig Baird  23:50 Yeah, I mean, there was times early on where I was making a couple hundred dollars a month. And so you can do it, it's a matter of- you just have to be consistent with what you're putting out, and it builds over time. It takes time. But, you know, be consistent with what you put up, build a social media following however you can. And again, that takes time, like everything with this takes time. Unless you're you know, Will Arnett and Jason Bateman, and you've already got the star power, and you go, hey, we're doing a podcast. And then you've got the audience. You know, if you're like me, you gotta take the time to build it up. And so you don't want to, like, inundate people with donate, donate, donate, but you always want to make that kind of something that's out there for people who, if they want to donate, they can. You know, when I put my posts up, my longer posts, there's always just a little thing at the end saying, if you enjoy this, you can donate here. It's never a case of like, you have to donate. Everything I put out is free. There is never a case where, you know, it's behind a paywall. My Patrons do get episodes early, and ad free, but that's the only thing. There's never a case of, you'll get this if you pay. Everything thing is free, if you want to donate, awesome. If you don't, that's fine. And I think that that does resonate with people, because they feel like they're not being forced to pay something. And so just you have to keep putting it out there and taking the time. Like, it might feel like you're not getting anywhere when you have two patrons. But the more you put out, and the more you work at it, and are consistent with it, that Patreon grows, and then other things grow. It just takes time. Matt Cundill  25:25 Does anybody from the education field ever reach out to you, whether it's like teachers, or a school board, or an entire education department? Just ask or contact you for anything? Craig Baird  25:35 Yeah, I've had people who are writing their PhDs and ask me about, can they cite this? I'm like, yep, go ahead, and they ask me some questions. I've had teachers who have come to me and said that they use some of my material to teach kids, the AI Prime Ministers that I did back in March of last year as rockstars- a lot of teachers said, this is great. I'm using this to teach about our Prime Ministers. There's a teacher in Edmonton, who is using my polls, especially the Structure and Wonders, and she has her kids vote on it. And then what- depending on what the class votes, that's what she'll vote online. And so I do have a lot of teachers who will contact me and say that this is a good way to learn, and it gets kids involved in history. Matt Cundill  26:18 Is there a video or YouTube component to this? Craig Baird  26:21 There is. I don't do it as much, I want to do it a bit more, especially on- I want to travel around Canada this year, and really visit historical sites and make video content. I'm really starting to try and work into TikTok. I was doing it quite a bit early on, but with working on the book and the radio and the podcast, so much of my time has involved just writing that I haven't had as much time for TikTok. So I'm trying to involve that more, because I'm just trying to reach everybody that I possibly can, to teach in as many different ways that I can. So there is a video component, it- but it's not as large as the audio component right now. Matt Cundill  26:56 I'm sorry, I'm laughing. I heard a grown man say, I'm sorry, I just don't have enough time for TikTok. Craig Baird  27:03 I do like watching it. I mean, I have enough time to watch, I just don't have time to make it. Matt Cundill  27:09 What's the one piece of Canadian history that you're shocked people don't know about? Craig Baird  27:16 Oh, God, there's so much. I think there's a lot of Indigenous history that people don't know about, like the Battle of Belly River in Lethbridge. You know, the last time that two Indigenous nations went to war in a large scale battle. Nobody knows about that. Even in Lethbridge, I don't think very many people know about that. Maybe not that people don't know, but there's a lot of misconceptions about Canadian history. Like John A. Macdonald is very much seen as the father of Canada. And it's like, there is many more people involved in this. There's fathers of Confederation, and they're kind of lost in the background. And then there's misconceptions with, you know, our war history and things like that. Vimy Ridge is this shining example of a battle in Canadian history. Every Canadian knows about Vimy Ridge, but they don't know as much about, say, the 100 Days Offensive, which was a much more involved and important part of the war. We'll be focused on Vimy Ridge. So I- like Canadians know a lot about certain little things in our history, like super- and then very little about other things. The Prime Ministers is a perfect example. I bet you most Canadians can name- and if we don't include say from Brian Mulroney onwards, maybe five, maybe. Matt Cundill  28:32 Oh, I- you're overshooting. It's three. Craig Baird  28:36 Maybe, yeah. Like, somebody like Louis St. Laurent, who I feel is probably one of our greatest Prime Ministers? Most Canadians have no idea who he is. And this is somebody who, for me, is in the top three or four Prime Ministers. So he- that is something that's definitely overlooked. Everybody knows who Diefenbaker, Pearson, Trudeau is. Nobody knows who King, Bennett, Borden. Nobody knows who the four Prime Ministers from when Sir John A Macdonald died to Sir Wilfrid Laurier. So that is definitely something that's very overlooked in our history. And just there's so many things that I think people just don't know about our history. And that's really what I'm trying to teach, is all these amazing things. Matt Cundill  29:17 Only the people who wound up on money got famous. Craig Baird  29:19 Yeah, exactly. I mean, nobody knew who Viola Desmond was before the ten- that's not true. I would say in Eastern Canada, people knew who she was. I had no idea who she was growing up. We were never taught about her at all in Alberta, until she was put on money, and now everybody does know who she is. So you're absolutely right with that. Matt Cundill  29:37 One of the things I find that comes up in Canadian history, that people don't know about, is the Halifax explosion. Craig Baird  29:43 Oh, God yeah. I'm part of Toastmasters, so it's a public speaking group. And I did a speech about the Halifax explosion. And I had somebody come up to you and say, hey, did that really happen? And it's like, yes, that happened. Like, did you think I just made this up for the past 10 minutes? This absolutely happened, this massive explosion that destroyed an entire city. There would be so many movies about that in the United States and in England. And here we've had one mini series, and I don't think it was that good. And for whatever reason, people don't know about it. Obviously they do and Halifax and the East Coast, but out West, it's almost unknown to some people. Matt Cundill  30:23 Yeah, I'm trying to equate the size of the explosion to give people a context. But somewhere between- the Twin Towers falling down in New York City, the amount of TNT that was detonated in the Halifax Harbour was larger. Craig Baird  30:39 Absolutely. Matt Cundill  30:40 Much larger. Craig Baird  30:41 Yeah, 2.9 kilotons. So it was 1/6 the size of the Hiroshima bomb. What I try and do is on the day that it happens, I share the video of the Beirut explosion, because it's something visual people can see, and I say, the Halifax explosion was three times as large as this. And I think that does help people kind of visualize it. Matt Cundill  31:01 I would say, what do you have planned? What's the future like? But it sounds like you're busy and you've got things going, including a radio show, you're doing a book. You're creating content every day. By the way, thank you for making X a place I still like to go to, whether it's the music polls, or just your quick stories. One final note, thank you for doing the piece on Senator Corinne Wilson. She's my great great aunt. Craig Baird  31:25 Oh, no way. Yeah, I did that episode last year. She's a fascinating story. Again, so many people don't know. First female Senator, somebody who brought in Jewish refugees, was against the appeasement of Hitler. And people have no idea who she is, and this huge person in our history. That's awesome that she's you're great aunt. I have literally no connection to any history other than small towns. Matt Cundill  31:47 She came from the- you said the McKay family. It's pronounced "Mackai." Craig Baird  31:51 Oh, okay. Matt Cundill  31:52 But not serious, because you're- in Ottawa, they pronounce Dalhousie "Dalhoosie." So, you know, one of the great things about Canada, by the way, are pronunciations, and as I did radio and moved across the country, I learned very quickly in Nova Scotia, it's Avonport and not "A-von-port." Craig Baird  32:09 Yeah, see that's my Alberta accent. Matt Cundill  32:12 Yeah. Hey, thanks so much for joining me on the podcast. I love your show. I love how there's a radio component to it. I love how you're working with the good people at Corus and CuriousCast, and continued success. And of course, you're talking about one of my other great passions, which is Canadian history. Craig Baird  32:28 Thank you for having me on. That was awesome. Tara Sands (Voiceover)  32:29 The Sound Off Podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski. Edited by Chloe Emond-Lane. Social media by Aidan Glassey. Another great creation from the Soundoff Media Company. There's always more at SoundOffPodcast.com.

It appears that Jeremy Baker has come full circle. After starting the commercial part of his career at the Zone in Victoria, Jeremy has returned. We discuss his early years buying 90's CD's, listening to 99.3 the Fox, X, and other alternative formated radio. We talked about his time working university radio before heading to the Zone in Victoria then to CFOX in Vancouver, and later the Peak and most recently a stint at Acadia Broadcasting's the Surge before heading back out west. The conversation revolved around the radio industry with tons of name dropping and nerding out on east and west coast radio. You can also watch the episode here if you swing that way. We did not. know that the Vancouver Millionaires jersey was jinxed in any way. However, I might suggest that everything the Canucks has done to date has helped to jinx the franchise. Including their god-awful selection in jerseys over the years. By the way, we titled the episode the Wanderer because he has been seen wearing a Halifax Wanderers hat and we think that's pretty cool. A transcription of this episode can be found over on the network page. I don't think it's a good idea to post the transcriptions here because Google is cataloguing these as 20+minute reads which is bad for search. Someone please change my mind.

Jeremy recounts his career journey from his first internet and computer experiences in the 1990s to his current role in digital innovation for radio. Beginning with a vivid recollection of early personal computing and internet usage, Jeremy Sinon shares how his tech-savvy background led him to a pivotal role at Clear Channel and later at Hubbard Radio. Through engaging anecdotes, he discusses the challenges and opportunities faced while integrating digital platforms, social media, and podcasting into traditional radio. Jeremy elaborates on the evolution of digital departments, the importance of strategic content repurposing, and the potential impact of AI on the industry. His insights provide a broader understanding of navigating digital shifts, encouraging radio professionals to adapt and innovate in an ever-changing landscape. Did you know? Jeremy was also the recipient of the NAB's Digital Leadership Award in 2022. One conference that not enough radio people attend is the Consumer Electronics Show. Hubbard Radio has been sending their people for the last decade and Jeremy made a TikTok summary of the things he saw there. Not everything you see at CES may have to do with audio and radio - but it does show you what is possible. The early January show is a great way to keep your artistic and creative mind sharp. CES is the most powerful tech event in the world — the proving ground for breakthrough technologies and global innovators. This is where brands get business done, meet new partners and where the industry’s sharpest minds take the stage to unveil their latest releases and boldest breakthroughs. Owned and produced by the Consumer Technology Association (CTA)®, CES is the only trade show that showcases the entire tech landscape at one event.

Another episode years in the making. Scot Turner recently retired from Evanov Radio in Brantford, Ontario. Scot discussed his experiences in radio programming, sharing insights on how to navigate challenges and create successful radio stations, including CFNY, 94.5 The Beat, Dave-FM in Kitchener, and many more. In this episode, Scot emphasized the importance of blending genres, catering to a specific audience, and adapting to changing listener preferences. We also discussed the evolution of dance music on radio, particularly in the 1980s and 1990s, and the challenges and opportunities in urban radio programming in Canada during the early 1990s. We got deep into the weeds on the integration of hip hop and urban music into Canadian radio formats and the impact of streaming platforms on traditional radio. Highlighted are the nostalgia and importance of CFNY, culminating in a forthcoming documentary supported by Corus Entertainment. Finally, we emphasized the significance of celebrating radio's history through anniversaries and innovative programming, offering a rich perspective on the medium’s past and future. We got very deep into the weeds on a number of subjects and here are some of the things we thought about after the show.... Amazing Voice Talent: Producer/Voice guy Scott was thinking of Dan Tucek. He is still think he’s voice of CP 24 (Toronto, ON TV), Bounce (Edmonton, AB Radio), 98.5 KISS-FM (Peoria, IL Radio), Sony Music Canada, Universal Music Canada. Joanna Stadwiser – used her at several stations over the years.  One of my fave females Heather Walters – voice on Lite 92 Evanov.  They had chosen her when I got there and LOVED her. No need to change. Jeff Berlin We also discussed the Montage Rule:  Scott found text from a document he put together while at The Beat (Vancouver) in 2011. More revisions to the hit/non-hit regs came in May 1997, when the CRTC officially stated that “A hit is any selection that, up to and including 31 December 1980, reached one of the Top 40 positions in the charts used by the Commission to determine hits. All other selections will be considered as non-hits for purposes of determining compliance with a station’s Promise of Performance.” With these new regulations, every song from January 1, 1981 onwards was now classified as a non-hit, which opened the doors for the CHR format to explode onto FM, as they could now play all the contemporary music they wanted because all new releases would be considered non-hits, whether they hit Top 40 or not. Remember, FM’s needed a minimum of 51% non-hit, so under those new guidelines, they could roll with 100% non-hit and be in full compliance with their license conditions. Scott also posted a follow up on Facebook about the success of Dave-FM. After the fact one usually forgets and can leave details out - one shout out I forgot would be to Jamie Watson the entire imaging/promo writing & production team at Corus Kitchener 107.5 Dave Rocks & 91.5 THE BEAT where we were nominated and won numerous Crystal Awards at CMW over the years. Such a key to making a radio station sound great. Jaie Tufford Christine Chaplin Smith John Quirk Ryan Dentinger Dave Hiltz The Upcoming CFNY documentary is nearing completion and it will be coming to a theater or streaming service near you. Here is a news feature that parent company Corus Entertainment aired. If you would like a quick preview of some of the stars that will be appearing on the show - you can check out the growing list on the IMDB page. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt22941170/ TRANSCRIPTION Tara Sands (Voiceover)  00:02 The Sound Off Podcast. The show about podcast and broadcast starts now. Matt Cundill  00:12 Scot Turner has had an amazing radio career to date. Our path only crossed one time. And it was during a period in the 2000s when we were both programmers at Corus. He's always been known for orchestrating incredible radio sounds at CFNY in Toronto, The Beat in Vancouver, and Energy 108 in Burlington, which, by the way, is just outside of Toronto. You see, Scot has an ear for finding sounds that don't currently exist on the radio, and bringing them to the radio. So strap yourself in for the stories and radio geekery when two programmers get together and talk shop. By the way, we got so deep into things that there were times a mistake or two was made, or we couldn't remember the name. And if that was the case, you can find it on the episode page at soundoffpodcast.com. And now, Scot Turner joins me from Paris, Ontario. I'm really glad I get to do this. Because so many times when you and I have met in the past, it was work related or business related. And I never really got to sit down to talk to you about this incredible career that you've had in radio, because I always wanted to know about the time when, about the time when. And there were- there were many times, and hopefully today I don't forget any of those times. So thanks for doing this.  Your name came up, I guess about a year ago, because I had Maie Pauts on the show. And you and Maie I think crossed paths a few times, sort of right at the beginning. Scot Turner  00:12 For sure. Absolutely. Matt Cundill  00:12 And you started in radio, it was about 1979, and it was Newmarket. How did you get there? Scot Turner  01:43 Well, Newmarket was part of a number of those sort of weekend, part time gigs. There was also Guelph, you know, CJOY was my first full time gig, but Newmarket a couple of times, because there was CKAN, that was the AM. And then down the road, it became an FM which was 88.5, and then- or 88.1. One or the other. So there's a few times and you know, there's so many of those smaller stations that they just blur over the years, anybody that's done radio for as long as I, they kind of blur into each other. So you tend to remember the highlights, the the stations, you've you've worked longer at. CKAN, I remember I would just drive. I lived in Scarborough, and we just drove up on the weekends. I remember that. Back then it seemed like a far drive. But not anymore. It was like Burlington, you know, we're working in Energy 108. I remember I was working at CFNY, which was in Brampton. And I remember driving out because I wanted to explore other stations and I was looking at, you know, what might be my next job. And in radio, you're you're always if you're smart, you're thinking ahead and thinking, you know, things can happen. And they do, formats change, and people get shuffled around. And I remember driving out to Burlington, from Brampton and thinking, this is really far. Wow. Like, just way too far. It just felt forever. And now it doesn't at all, of course, you know, Toronto over the years has just exploded, you know, so that goes for like the new market story and the Burlington, Hamilton, they all- everything just, you know, from- now you go from Mississauga to Oakville to Burlington, and all of a sudden you're in Hamilton. It just seems like one giant city now. Matt Cundill  03:38 And how did you get into CFNY? Which at the time was a Brampton station. And if you didn't know it, it did feel like it was not a Toronto station. It was outside and away. It was a suburban station. Scot Turner  03:52 Very much so, yeah. So there was an AM to CFNY that some people talk about the story or tell the story when the AM was CHIC, C-H-I-C. And at one time that station had all females on the air, it was around the late I guess was like late 70s when disco was- you know, 77, 78, 79, when disco was really huge. And then later on, it became- they changed the call letters to CKMW for Metro West. It was still owned by the same company. And it was the aim to see if and why. And I got a job there. That's actually where I met Maie Pauts. She was hired in overnights. So this is around '83, when the owners were splitting off the AM and FM of CFNY, literally in the same hallway, just down the hallway was the AM, and we shared like the news department. We shared the writers. We shared a number of things between the two stations. But that's when Bill Evanoff came in and another partner and they bought the AM, and that's where it split off. And eventually became a multicultural station. But because they didn't have, you know, Bill and the other people he was working with didn't have everything lined up. He had all these hours during the day. And I think the CRTC promise was that, okay, you can become multicultural, but only so many hours a day. And so I went to Bill and I said, listen, do you mind if I program the English hours of the station? And that's where I presented him with the idea of doing this urban contemporary format, it was, as it was called at the time. So it was a mixture of top 40 and urban music, you know, r&b and some hip hop and some other stuff that normally was not getting played in Canada. And that was a lot of fun. It was called radio 790, CKMW, rhythm radio. And it lasted for a few years. But eventually, I managed to get a job down the hallway, at CFNY, as did Maie Pauts. So we kind of- that's where we both came from, the AM of CFNY, which was Radio 790, and then started working at CFNY. So I started '84, and I think Maie came over around '86-'87. Matt Cundill  06:10 For those who are listening to this in audio format, you're not going to be able to necessarily see the joy that I'm seeing right now. And that's probably two of the greatest things going on. And that's a large collection of bottled booze. I believe is that a CD collection behind you? Scot Turner  06:29 Yeah, if you're just hearing this audio- so I've got a wall of CDs. That was- that was hard. I downsized when I moved to where I am now, I did give away, sell off, a number of CDs, but I still have a few thousand on the wall here. And then you can't see to my other side. I do have some vinyl collection. But it's down to like four or five bins now. But I also have a scotch collection. Yes, I definitely- I have my single malts. So in my little bar- sorry, this is sorta my man cave, my, my sound room. So I've got my stereo in here. I've got you know, my little office setup with my computer, lots and lots of music, and scotch. Matt Cundill  07:06 Where did you get your ear for music? Scot Turner  07:09 Well, I think and I've talked to a number of people that got into radio that- I've termed it before, it's almost like some people that failed to be musicians and failed to make it in a band or failed to make it in music. I wanted to do music, I actually wanted to be in a band and I was in a couple of bands. But I one thing I noticed is I worked with this band and watched other players and you played with other bands or other bands open for you and you open for other bands. But I realized I wasn't great. I played a little guitar, I played a little drums, I sang not very well. But there was all of the things I did from guitar to drums to singing, it was- it was just really mediocre. And I realized when you saw, you know, obviously you saw, you'd go see concerts of successful bands and you realize, man, this guy can get that guy plays guitar, I could never play guitar like that. And I can't sing like that. And that drummer, I could never drum like that. So it was an awakening that I don't think- I don't think I'll ever make it in the music business. It's a tough, tough haul. But listening to radio, and I listened to guys on the radio. And I thought, you know, that doesn't sound that hard. I think maybe I could do that. And so I just kind of practiced and emulated talking on the radio, and you probably do it in your car, or maybe just as you're listening to the, the radio at home, you practice talking in and out of records. And I thought, You know what, I think I could do this. And I thought that's a safer way to get into the music business. So if you're working at a radio station, I get to play music and close to music, maybe I'll interview some artists. So that was kind of the path and choice is still my parents thought it was crazy thought that's not a job. My dad wanted me to do a trade, electrician or plumber, whatever. So that kind of freaked them out a little bit that I was going to get into radio. But that was- that was the way in, I just thought, I don't think I could be in a band. Let's try radio. Matt Cundill  09:10 Could it have easily been working A&R at a record company? Scot Turner  09:14 You know? Yes, probably. It's something I should have looked at and never did because I guess radio became so much fun. And one of the things about radio that I discovered soon in as I got into the business, is I realized not all music was being played on the radio and that's one of the things that I did in my career. And you know, CFNY is a great example of I really admired stations that would take chances on music, breaking new music that became you know, a big thing for me from my days at CFNY and Energy 108. That's one of the reasons I did Energy 108 because I thought, hmm. And you know, that answers your question about you know, I could work in for a record company. Maybe I could go down that path. Which did interest me, but I thought, we still have this problem of songs not being played on the radio, too much of a problem, that I thought I can stay in radio and I'm gonna see what I can do, I'm gonna- that's gonna be one of my goals, is to see if I can help break music on the radio, introduce music on the radio that your typical radio station doesn't play. And I think you know, over the years, I managed to be a part of that, and have done a job like that for the stations I worked at. Matt Cundill  10:30 How did you know what to bring to 790 when you got the opportunity from- from Bill Evanoff? How did you know the format or what the mix of music was going to be? Scot Turner  10:42 A number of things, a combination of things. I had done- in my years at CFNY- there was a time when CFNY was- we call it the mistake of '88, when the station was experimenting playing top 40 with alternative music. And when that was happening, I saw the writing on the wall that the station may not be the same CFNY that it was. So I started doing some research and one of the things I did, and I actually took a sabbatical for a couple of months. And I just literally got in the car, I drove down to Florida was my final destination because my parents had had a condo there so I could stay there. But on my way I visited- I called ahead, I called a number of really big black radio stations. I went to V103 in Atlanta, I went to a station in Washington, and I went to another station in Philadelphia, some of the big black stations that I had had appointments with the PDs and I went to talk to them about the music format. Because this hasn't been done in Canada. And we had a lot of people in the GTA, Southern Ontario, listen to BLK out of Buffalo. And I thought, wow, I'd love to be part of a station in Canada that broke some of this music, that played some of this music and nobody else was playing. And there are a few you know, there's college stations, of course, some college stations were- were helping and, and even CFNY was playing some some music in the genre that many stations weren't playing. But anyway, that's where I got the taste for it, always wanted to do that. And that's where you know, radio 790 was my first taste of that in 83-84, where Bill Evanoff said, sure, go ahead. And to everyone's surprise, and Bill's certainly, the station was actually quite successful. And we did this breakdance contest in the in the summer of I guess it was June, maybe it was June or July of- of '84 in Brampton, Chinguacousy Park Brampton. And we thought about six or seven hundred people would show up and it ended up being like 6000 people. And this is when breakdancing was a big thing and a couple of movies that came out that year. And it was hugely successful. Eventually, Bill continued on with the station as being a multicultural station. So that that faded away. But that always stayed with me. And later on the opportunity came up where I met Bill again, and we talked about Energy 108 and did that, you know, through most of the 90s. And that was similar, again, exposing, you know some of that black music, but also things had changed in the 90s. There was other forms of dance music and rhythmic music that needed exposure and gave us a great opportunity to just to fill that and run with that on Energy 108. It was an awesome time. Matt Cundill  13:29 So what did you bring to CFNY in 1984 ish? Because there's still- again, a lot of music is not making it to the radio. So what kind of music did you manage to get on CFNY? Scot Turner  13:43 Well, it's interesting that even from down the hall when I was at radio 790, you know, myself and Maie Pauts, and we were friend- friends with a lot of people at CFNY, we would go down the hallway with some imports that we had come across- and interesting that- that Bill Evanoff had some great connections with the Italian community. And we used to get these imports, people from Italy, they- a couple of connections he had would actually send us the latest singles in Italy. And there was a just a myriad of stuff that was being played in Europe and out of Italy. And there was a few records I took down to see if and why that they that they didn't have that I said well I got this import from Italy. And I think you know Fiction Factory - Feels Like Heaven was one song and others, and you know, of course CFNY played a lot of imports. So that was one of the influences that I had an in. And then we had from both radio 790 and CFNY had their connections for import records when there were places like- places like Mellow Music, on Kennedy Road in Scarborough, the guy that ran that literally every week drove to Detroit, sometimes Buffalo but he would- for whatever reason Detroit had a better stock of records, but he would literally drive to Detroit every week and get the latest records out of the US and of course a lot of you know r&b, funk, and hip hop, the record companies in Canada weren't even touching them. Because there wasn't the market, there weren't the radio stations to play it. So there's a number of records that never got the release, or it took a while to get the release. My experience with CFNY I learned the need in Canada, sadly, to look at imported records for the hits. And that's what we did, at Energy 108, when there was a rule of hit and non hit, one of the ways around that was, well, okay, can only play 50% or 49%, or whatever it was, of, of hits, well, I thought, well, there's all these import records that are hit records that are very accessible, very, you know, commercial sounding, but they're out in Italy, and they're out in England, and they're out in France, and they're out in Germany. And they're not released here yet, but boy, they ever catchy. Let's just start playing those, you know, and that's, you know, we're a lot of the the Euro sound and Ace Of Bass and Rhythm Is A Dancer, all those records that came out of Europe, we played on energy before they were hits. So we got the non hits, because this is at a time and you remember, early 90s. So I don't know when they they lifted the hit non hit rule, but- Matt Cundill  16:17 '91. Okay, so that's wrong. The correct answer is actually 1997. Scot Turner  16:24 But that was- so that was a challenge for FM radio in those certain years. They couldn't really do top 40 on FM radio for a time. Matt Cundill  16:34 Just to give people an idea about how important it was to maintain all those regulations. Some radio stations had a position of Director of Foreground Programming, which is one title that you had when you were at CFNY. Scot Turner  16:48 Yes. So it was- it was complicated. Yeah, Director of Foreground and Mosaic Programming. And we had all these different rules that that the CRTC had put in place to keep FM radio different from AM radio, and it was also to extend the health of AM radio, as people were starting to like FM because it just sounded better. The CRTC did, and I guess the radius, a lot of the radio stations wanted that a little bit of help, because we knew the writing again was on the wall, FM is going to take over. So these they stuck these rules to make FM a little bit different. And I actually thought many of the rules were very good and made sense because it did keep FM quite interesting. But it was tricky. Because you had these foreground programs where if it was an hour or two hours, the way you pass the rules is you couldn't give a time check. You couldn't give the weather, these surveillance things, right? Matt Cundill  17:43 No traffic. Scot Turner  17:44 And traffic. Yeah. Matt Cundill  17:45 And you had to keep it within a 15 minute block. So if you went 14 minutes and 59 seconds, and then- and then gave the temperature, you pretty much annihilated the previous 14 minutes and 59 seconds from having counted for anything of value and worth. And there were- Listen, there were a lot of shows on the air. I know over at Q107, there was- they would- you know, Rock Report, that would count. Sunday music magazine? Scot Turner  18:07 Yes. Matt Cundill  18:07 That one you did? Scot Turner  18:08 Yes. Matt Cundill  18:09 Yeah, there were things like that, it could be 15 minutes, it could be an hour, but you had to have X amount. And I think the other one that people forget, and this was done to protect AM top 40s. And that's that on FM you could not play a song more than 18 times in a week. Scot Turner  18:24 Correct. Matt Cundill  18:25 Doesn't that sound crazy by today's standards, considering you probably clocked in some of the- some songs over 100 times a week at The Beat. Scot Turner  18:32 Yeah. Well, and I think along that same thought line, they had- CFNY for a while did this Catch Us If You Can contest, which was hugely popular. So it was- you know, there's no song we're gonna play more than once a day. And if you catch playing a song twice, you know, you're gonna win 1000 bucks or wherever it was. Fantastic contest. People loved it. Except I did the evening show for a number of years on CFNY. So guess what happens? Because this is an era where we we were the DJs that picked our music, we got to pick the music on the station. And so all the current records and they were on the floor and they were records on the floor. So the morning show was like, you know when there's a hottest new- oh, Frankie Goes to Hollywood or there's a new New Order or Depeche Mode. That either got played in the morning that didn't get played by the morning, JR would play it in the midday, or James Scott would play by the afternoon and by the time the evening came, I got all the shit. All the kind of you know, secondary records or the ones that were, yeah, just not the biggest hits. That was fun. Matt Cundill  19:44 Why isn't dance music is well received in North America as it was in Europe? In the '80s especially. Scot Turner  19:52 I don't know if I have the exact answer, it's interesting because I'm- there was a BBC documentary on disco. That's on PBS right now that I'm watching, I've been on the second part of it. And I haven't gotten to that part yet when there was a big backlash in the US, but I think there's some reasons behind, I think there was the, you know, the religious reasons, a lot of dance music came out of the gay clubs. Disco, really started in the gay clubs. And those clubs were very open minded and had some of the greatest parties and it wasn't just gay people, but a lot of straight people or people that were, you know, marginalized or were a little bit different. But that's kind of the roots of where it came from. And I think there was a certain point that the whole disco sucks thing really resonated with a number of people in the US. And I think, you know, there's a certain religious context to that anti gay part of it, that helped spur that dance music was very gay friendly. And in the US, once that gets hold, it can really grow. And I think that's really where it came from. And then if there were some people in Canada, that also jumped on that bandwagon without really understanding the music. And I think that's another thing when disco at one point, you know, was absolutely massive, both on the radio, in the clubs there were- and I remember, you know, late 70s, certainly in Ontario, and around the Toronto area, there was not a a restaurant that didn't have a dance floor, that, you know, on their Thursday and Friday and Saturday nights. Were playing disco that what they normally wouldn't do, and it killed- the other part of it. Disco almost became too big, that it killed a lot of live bands, venues, venues that were- always had live bands were- were having disco nights. And so I think that was part of the backlash about the people that that enjoyed their live music. And then there are really staunch rock and rollers out there that were very prejudiced against dance music, in its various forms. So it had a, you know, a tough time in North America. And as you pointed out in Europe, they didn't have the backlash in Europe. And it was a very North American thing, mostly American thing. But Canada kind of followed suit to a degree but not to the same extent. Matt Cundill  22:24 Today, I see something that has happened as a result of that, which this is not very monumental stuff. But when you go backwards, and you want to talk about the throwbacks, and let's say you had a throwback radio station right now. And if you reached into the era, 1980-81, just to the early part of 1982, it is a complete wasteland of throwback records. Because if you look at the top 40 charts, it is all slow, it is all dull. It's not very interesting. There's very, very few songs to really choose from that have any pop. And if you do, there's Blondie, and that came out of the clubs, you know, that came from the streets. So there really wasn't a lot of great music that was on the radio at that point. And I know this is a theme that I've touched on a number of times on the show, and that you know, when you get to 1982 and MTV has had six months, and it was Duran Duran and everything that came over from Europe, they began to populate the airwaves that there was a resurgence and then the tempo did come back to the radio. This is around the same time by the way that you've started to bring some dance music to the radio. But did disco get rebranded as dance? Scot Turner  23:30 Absolutely. And I think over the years generationally that people like to stamp it their own. And so names will change, you know, from you know, that global term of dance music and dance music in the early 90s. When we started Energy 108, dance music meant house music, it meant r&b, it meant hip hop, it meant techno, Euro, freestyle, Electro, all the different genres are under that dance music, but there was a certain point where that term became a little bit dated. And then, you know, the term electronica came in. And then electronic was a sort of blanket term, which still is used today, a blanket term for all music, it's generally dance oriented, EDM, electronic dance music. It's really the same thing. But we're just finding new terms, new things to call them over the years, and that's natural, that's natural. Matt Cundill  24:32 I feel as though I missed the entire Energy 108 era in Toronto, largely because I didn't live in Toronto. I could only hear tell of the stories that had gone on. So what made this station so great? Scot Turner  24:45 Well, I think part of the theme of what you've brought up is, you know, dance music- one of the things I ran into with dance music, and maybe this is because there's been this prejudice on the radio, and I ran into it, and I, you know, people would actually say that to my face. You can play dance music on the radio, dance music doesn't belong on the radio, dance music is for the clubs. And I get that to a degree, but I was out to prove that wrong. And we certainly saw that with disco because disco came out of the clubs and got onto the radio and some of the biggest hits, you know, from Donna Summer to the Bee Gees, etc, etc. got played on the radio, and were radio songs. So the argument doesn't work. And so fast forward, you know, we had this disco backlash and disco died. And as you got later into the 80s, house music started to rise. And house music is- it's disco music, you know, it depends what you want to call it. It's dance music. So house- they came up with this new term house music, and that became very popular. And I saw that happening. And I saw techno in the late 80s, techno was starting to happen, the rave scene was starting to happen, all these really cool things were happening. Of course, we had a lot of urban music out of the US that was not getting played on the radio in Canada. And all of that just was like, Oh my God, here we are again. This stuff can work on the radio. There's a lot of great music. Yes, there's some of it maybe is better for the club. I agree. Then, you know, we came up with these life to airs. And here became this- wait a minute, so we could take a broadcast and take a feed from a club and and play it on the radio. So it's Friday and Saturday night people are in different moods. So their taste of what they want to hear is different. You know, on weekends, it's different in the evenings than daytime. And a lot of programmers just didn't recognize that. Matt Cundill  26:46 And after midnight, no regs. Scot Turner  26:47 Yeah. And you know, and Chris Shepard helped prove everybody that you could do a show from a club. He played whatever he wanted. He was the number one rated radio show. You know, when he was on CFNY and when he was on Energy, his ratings were just enormous. So you can do it. But it's- you know, I think people that are just stuck in the old ways and are just too scared to try new things. Right. That's, that's typical. Matt Cundill  27:14 I was gonna suggest you need a radio station to play the music to get you to the club. But then you already brought up the point that you know, you can play the music in the club and send it back out through the radio. I remember in Montreal, I don't know if we picked up the idea or it was- it had evolved as well. But it was a million and a half dollars a year in revenue. How much money did you see at one point? Scot Turner  27:39 When the club scene was exploding, this is you know, late 80s, early 90s, mid 90s, epecially with Energy 108, we were charging $5,000 for live to air. And then the DJ got paid on top of that. Myself as a DJ and others. We were making, you know, $500 to $1,000 cash a night at a club. Plus they're paying the $5,000 to the radio station for the live to air. It was incredible. Incredible. We had lived airs on the radio, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday nights for many years. Incredible. And we trusted the host we trusted the DJs, you know we had meetings with the DJs. But we made sure you know your club. You know the music. You run the show. And it worked. It's funny because I would have calls from other radio stations across the country that would call up and they'd ask about these lived airs like I hear you're doing these energy one away live dares and they're very, they're great for revenue and great moneymakers in the park that really freaked everybody out. It was excuse me, you don't have a playlist you don't give them a playlist to what to play from the club. I go no, no, no, no, the DJ at the club plays it now. We trust the DJs. We know the DJs they're like oh, we can't do that. So that was a big sticking point for a lot of it couldn't give away that control. They really wanted to control the music. So that was- that was a tough one. Tara Sands (Voiceover)  29:07 Transcription of the Sound Off Podcast is powered by the Podcast Super Friends, five podcast producers who get together to discuss podcasting. Sharpen your podcast and creation skills by following the show on the Sound Off Podcast's YouTube or Facebook page. This podcast supports podcasting 2.0. So feel free to send us a boost if you're listening on a new podcast app. Find your new app now at podcasting2.org/apps. That's podcasting2.org/apps. Matt Cundill  29:41 It was a tough time, sorta in the early 90s, you know, to get an urban record on so I know because there were times I would listen to the song. Oh, that's a hit. I'd like to play that. But it's top 40 and it might be on Billboard in the 30s but it's just not quite ready for Canada. So- and I don't even think today we've done it. How can we can overcome this? Where, you know, an urban format radio station really resides in this country? Scot Turner  30:08 It's a strange, odd thing I don't know if I know the answer to. And we certainly know there was a sort of no rap thing for a lot of programmers. And y'know one argument and I don't know if that's the answer. I used to say, Well, it's because a lot of programmers in Canada are white guys, they grew up on rock music, and they don't understand rap, hip hop in that music. And I don't know if that's fair. But that may be one answer to it. The other being, you know, Canada's not the US. Yes, there is truth of the population. Certainly, like, you know, a city like Atlanta is 70-80% African American. But you know, there's a multicultural advantage the Toronto has the though, I think we can do that in Toronto, but you may not be able to do it in other Canadian cities. So, you know, the ethnic makeup is one of the questions that it may be is one of the challenges but you know, the other funny side to things is, we all know this from- from record sales is that a lot of rap music and hip hop music, has sold millions of records to white people. So I don't know where this- where it originally came from, this you know, you can't play a rap on the radio and there you know, there was no- and they came up with versions of songs, without the rap, the no rap version, and that would get played. And it was just like, really, I get that maybe for an AC station, a softer station. But I think for top 40, makes no sense whatsoever to me that why you couldn't play the rap song and rap song at 6am. You know, the day parting and I've always been anti day parting. I think it's all nonsense. But you know, there's been a lot of that in radio. And you know, and the no two, three female vocals in a row nonsense, like eh. Don't understand it. Matt Cundill  32:02 Somebody had a quote at the Radio Conference at Canadian Music Week, just last week, and was about the definition of a program director. It's like, always creating these rules and work in order to sort of justify the position of program director, right? So if you can come up with these rules, you can keep your job. Scot Turner  32:19 There's some truth in that I think, I think there's some truth in that. Yeah, rules are meant to be broken and many of them have been broken over the years, you know, that maybe at some time, it made some sense to play. I don't know, someone could explain that to me, why you couldn't play more than two females in a row or whatever the rule was, I don't know that is just bizarre. Matt Cundill  32:39 I think the justification was that they wanted to present- because radio was the only game in town, was to present a form of diversity amongst the artists. So the same rules would apply to corporate rock, the same rules would apply, you don't want to play Springsteen next to Bon Jovi, you don't want to play Boston next to Foreigner, you don't want to play next to- and eventually, you know, we don't wanna play two women, we also don't want to play, you know, two artists that- that, you know, from the same region, from the same town, that sound the same, dance, no two dance records together. So these were all a collection of rules to justify the position of program director, so some people would stay employed. Scot Turner  33:14 Well, you know, blending is, I think, really key. And I think, yeah, I think some of those, for those that don't know, you know, we have these fantastic software systems like music master, and there's so many little things you can do with it. And there are some pretty cool little rules you can put in there to make the mix and the blend more interesting. That's true. I don't disagree on that. But I'm not sure there was ever a no two males in a row. So if you're going to have the- we can't- you can't play two or three females in a row because you want to mix it up. So there's a male vocalist, and then as a female vocalist, but I honestly don't ever remember anybody ever saying, oh, you can't play two guys in a row. Why is that? Matt Cundill  33:57 I might have had a rule that said, we don't want to have two from the same genre. So I put a rule in so that Mellencamp and Springsteen couldn't be back to back. Scot Turner  34:06 So yeah, and you can get into the minutiae of this stuff. And it can get quite silly. Matt Cundill  34:11 It's incredibly silly. Day parting was silly. These rules I'm talking about now, which we did were silly. These music systems are actually based on the premise of saying no, and I think RCS selector at one point, said well let's create a system where it's yes, give me more of this and give me more of this, you know, which had to change the thinking of a lot of people who did programming but to think that your radio station is going to sink based on playing two females back to back or, you know, a song that should be allegedly day parted to a certain hour is a little nuts. Scot Turner  34:44 Yeah, I think at one time, one of the simplest things I came up with because you got into the sort of sub genres of styles. And then I just decided, at one point I'm going- I'm going to- and I guess it was for a kind of classic hits format. I just said it's either a pop song or a rock song, I'm going to have the two categories. And we're going to make sure that it blends you know, if we were rock leaning, it would be okay, you can have more than two pops in row. If it was a little softer leaning, we could have, you know, several pops in a row. And that really worked really, really well. Just- just like, you know what, and you went song by song, not by the artists. It went song by song and this is a pop song. This is a rock song, and it's a beautiful blend. Matt Cundill  35:25 What did you see when you did some auditorium testing and you took dance records into an auditorium test and maybe in the 90s, they played next to Third Eye Blind - Jumper or Semi-Charmed Life, or maybe they, you know, sat next to Oasis - Wonderwall. Some of the more typical 90s songs we hear, how did some of those big dance songs do in an auditorium test? Scot Turner  35:47 Fortunately, and I will look at this as a positive thing that in the Energy years, we never had a budget to do music testing. And we had the beauty of being in the clubs, we all DJ'd in the clubs, you were in the clubs, you could see the reaction of tracks. And we just went by gut and feel and listen. And there were really no charts to follow because we were doing our own thing. And I do you remember once that when Shaw was coming in to purchase the station, that became Corus. And I remember I forget who it was, but he was- he came in to kind of look at what we're doing. And he says, let me see your r&r and, and I think we had a subscription to it. But they literally just collected dust in the corner. And I'm like, shit, you gotta find r&r in the billboard. We really never looked at them. But later on, so when Shaw came in and purchased Energy 108, there was some money to do a couple of tests. It wasn't an auditorium test, I don't think but I remember the test coming back. And yeah, there was some of that Third Eye Blind mixed with the dance records. But I do remember the number one testing record that came back and it may have been because we are already branded ourselves as this dance mix. But you know, Ghetto Superstar by Praz was back the number one, like just tested through the roof. And we just laughed at that, because I think they were expecting other stuff from Matchbox 20 and others were going to test well, as they were trying to, you know, mix up the format at the time. But you know, that's a lesson in branding. The station had been branded, so long as Energy 108, that when they started to introduce Matchbox 20, and these are big hits, the audience just freaked out. I mean, you could go for hours and not hear a guitar on the station, you know. And then when you heard the first couple of songs that had a bit of guitar, bass guitar drums, it was like, ahhh! Matt Cundill  37:49 Were there any CanCon challenges? Scot Turner  37:51 Yeah, I mean, this is this is the 90s this is before Drake. This is before, you know, hip hop in Toronto. And that weekend, and other artists and just the quality of productions did not really come in until you know, into the 2000s. So it was just a real struggle to find the CanCon. And of course, you know, the mid 90s, Jagged Little Pill came out, Alanis Morissette. And I'm like, ah, geez, I can't play this. You know, this is the biggest record in the world. And it's CanCon, and I can't play it. And there were other, obviously, you know, Canada's done Rock and Pop Rock really, really well. And we just, we couldn't go there. We played some remixes. There were a few things that we got the record company to do a remix of. So we managed to make it through but we did play some definite mediocre tracks, and we had to. Matt Cundill  38:51 Did you ever explore the Quebec model of what they did? Which was to take Canadian songs, mix it into super dance mix, and then play it on the radio and count it as a CanCon? Did you ever get into that sort of gamesmanship? Scot Turner  39:04 It was montage or something, you know, it was the montage rule. Matt Cundill  39:06 Remember at the beginning of the episode, when I said you can go to soundoffpodcast.com to find out more about some of the things we got deep into? This is one of those things. Scot Turner  39:15 For our live to airs- so when you hit a stopset, that was the end of the Montage, so if we started at- say the live to air started at 10 o'clock, and we ran, so I think we only ran one stopset an hour because it was just hard to break up the music. But you- that wouldn't happen in the club. Of course you break away and you play a stopset on the radio, but not in the club. But on the radio as soon as you stop the mix of music. That's one montage. So that counted as one song. And so brilliantly, you could play- like so you know, if it's a half hour sweep. Good Lord, you know it could be 12 songs in a mix, and it would count as one song. I think they killed that montage rule years ago. But yeah. But it was great. Matt Cundill  40:07 And then they went and upped CanCon, I think probably in the- in the same movement. Scot Turner  40:11 Yeah. So I think, in order for it to, if that one song to count as CanCon, like 50% of the mix of songs had to be Canadian, or something like that, it was ridiculous. But it really, really helped us. Because to do what we were doing as a format, we needed that montage rule. And I, I think that we may have talked to the CRTC in developing that, that rule, which really, really helped us enabled to do these live fairs and mix shows. So you know, we did a mix show at five or six o'clock in the afternoon, an hour long mix show, like some of these DJs, the ones that cut out of songs really fast, you know, at the end of the hour, if you played 50 songs, imagine trying to do that with the normal CanCon rules, right? So the CRTC were very good and understanding what we were trying to do. And then of course, at some point, people started to abusing- abusing that, which yes, you're right to think there was a few Quebec situations when they got out of control. Matt Cundill  41:06 So we're in 2024, I believe I can count the number of urban radio stations in Canada on one finger. Scot Turner  41:13 Yeah, it's bizarre. Matt Cundill  41:14 Canadian radio is the whitest thing ever across the country. If I go to Atlanta, I'm going to listen to Music Power, View 103. If I go to New York, I want to listen to WBLS. I know the stations, these are the stations that everybody listens to, yet for whatever reason, we can't seem to cull together, you know, a format or a radio station in order to to properly reflect this brand of music. And so early 90s may have been 2000. I've now got my decades mixed up. But you know, Flow comes on the radio, and how would you grade that? How would you grade Flow? Scot Turner  41:53 Just to go back on your point is that, I think one of the things that has happened with the power and strength of hip hop, the hip hop became so huge that it just blended into so many different music styles. So there's a lot of pop songs, you know, that are played on Canadian radio that are so hip hop influenced, and you know, hip hop songs being played on top 40 stations in Canada. So it's come a long way. And having, you know, just rap being played on Canadian radio is much, much better these days than it was back in the 90s. So it definitely got better. It's still puzzling how a station like Flow didn't become bigger. It did okay, it did well, but it just wasn't up there with a CHFI in Toronto, and a CHUM FM. And how did it not get there? I don't know. I know, in the early days, I know there was a lot of arguments because, you know, Toronto has got this Caribbean contingency, it there's a lot of Jamaicans in Toronto. So there's a lot of people from the islands. So there's a different blend of, you know, urban music or black music. And I think there was some arguments about you know, we should be playing more Soca, we should be playing Calypso, we should be playing reggae, we should be- And then other people wanted more traditional urban black station that played you know, hip hop and r&b, jazz, hip hop and r&b. So I think there was some arguing in fighting in those days. And I would argue in Canada, you could play more reggae. And that's another funny thing about the urban stations that I discovered in the US is that they don't play- there's really rare you you'll ever hear reggae where you could probably and should play that in Canada, maybe maybe I'm speaking if you know, Toronto, because of the Caribbean community that Toronto has had over the years, and an openness for for, you know, Caribbean music, and reggae and things like that. But it's that's a funny thing about you know, you go down to these some of these US stations in these big cities, you know, outside of Bob Marley, you just they rarely play reggae. So that's a funny thing. But yeah, I've gone back to why there weren't the stations, even though there was a time there was one in Calgary and there was The Beat in in Vancouver was very urban. And Beat Kitchener was very urban flavored when it started. But they never never got the ratings, which was very puzzling. I don't know the answer that we certainly could argue it today is that the streaming is a big factor in that radio isn't where young people are going to get all their their new, particularly new music these days, right? It's challenged that way for sure. And And The Beat Vancouver was somewhere that you went to program in 2003. So all these years in Toronto, now you're moving to Vancouver. Yes. So that was- you know, it was the independent that got the license. When I went out there. It was just poorly programmed. You know, knowing Vancouver you know, I spent some time before I started at the station researching went around talk to people went to the clubs I went around. And one of the things I discovered is I thought, okay, there's there's an appetite for urban music, but there's an appetite for dance music. And I think the station should be more rhythmic. So a blend in. And that's what I introduced you to, we can play some of the the hip hop and r&b, but we're going to blend them with some more traditional pop dance music. And we did a blend of that. And it worked really, really well. It was it was very successful for a while. And then it eventually went top 40 as, as these all these stations we talked about, eventually, at some point, the business side of it comes in and going, hey, the ratings aren't big enough, we're not making enough money. Where's the money, let's go top 40. Or in some cases, there's a little bit of rhythmic feel. And you could argue that in the music over the years, depending on what's available, what's available to play on top 40. It goes through these cycles, right. And it can be quite rhythmic in nature, depending on what's what's coming out. But I think that happened with a lot of those stations, they did eventually just become full service top 40s. Matt Cundill  46:06 I don't recall the cycle in 2003-2004. But I do remember working at standard radio. And when we took out numbers for Vancouver, we would see The Beat start to really incrementally move in on 95.3, which was the traditional- Z95.3 was a traditional top 40 radio station. Went through some some problems and changes rebranded as Crave. I'm sure you were there to maybe see some of that stuff, you know, some of that wobbliness that they went through, but you essentially brought The Beat to number one at that point. Scot Turner  46:37 Yeah, like, I can't remember the exact numbers but it was doing extremely well. I used some of the things I learned from Energy and having mix shows on the radio did really well. And that, you know, again, a lot of traditional programmers were like you can't have a mix show at five o'clock in the afternoon. That's that's for the club's you know, and- Matt Cundill  46:55 Scot doesn't do dayparts. Scot Turner  46:58 And Z103 today is a great example of a station that over the years, kept a little bit of the DNA of Energy 108 and doing what they were doing. And they have always been a station that's championed, you know dance music and in their mix shows or our you know, with PPM came along and PPM don't lie. The mix shows were and still to this day are their highest rated shows on the station. So they do very, very well. But yeah, we had a great time with The Beat in Vancouver and- just a blast. It was a real great success. Matt Cundill  47:33 Did you leave The Beat because it got sold? Scot Turner  47:35 No, I got fired. It was one of the you know, in the radio business. You know, you get fired every now and then or restructured. Matt Cundill  47:41 Good job. Scot Turner  47:42 Yeah, so I don't know what happened. It's a long story. But yeah, I was out and I think I think they wanted to go on a top 40 direction and I was being pretty adamant about keeping it rhythmic. And anyway it just didn't work out. Matt Cundill  48:00 Back to Toronto you went. Scot Turner  48:01 Yes. So I think when I came back it was for a short time I- Pat Cardinal gave me a chance because I was between jobs working for a the short lived time there was a Jack in Toronto. So I did afternoon drive on Jack for a very short time because he was- and they were struggling with The Jack in Toronto and I was part- I was there for the short time with Pat came in my office and said, oh I hate to do this man, I gotta fire you. He says but don't tell everybody else, you're the first, I gotta fire all the announcers. What? He goes yeah we're gonna try- we're gonna go we're gonna go jock free, we're gonna try no jocks just music. And I'm like okay, so I don't feel so bad. It's not just me. So I was that was a short gig and that's when Ross Winters when he was with Corus gave me a call and said we needed somebody out in in Kitchener and that's when I started my run run in Kitchener with first Dave FM, that became Dave Rocks, and then Corus purchased The Beat Kitchener which when I came in was a very urban but really poorly programmed, cleaned that went up and kept it you know, rhythmic leaning. Matt Cundill  49:18 So you said poorly programmed twice. But what are you seeing? Are you seeing bad clocks? Are you seeing bad record selection? Are you seeing bad jocks? Yeah, it's tough to explain, because I've listened to a few stations recently in with other radio people. And we talked about it being sort of this is a nice listen, and this is not a nice listen. And do elements transition well, from one thing to another. Do things come out of nowhere. Is this too loud? Is this too abrupt is this, and it's got to have a feel, and everything's got to have- it's all gotta kind of mesh in a particular way. It's like, you can't explain why this works. You just know sonically it does work. I know, I was making fun of program directors earlier. But you know, as a- as a recovering program director, you know it when you hear it. Scot Turner  49:28 Mostly the first two. Like it's to me that's the key is is the music choice, the the clocks, the music blend, you know, the choice of music? Absolutely. And how different programs are put together than definitely the talent so it was a mishmash of a few loose pieces here and there and when I went to the beat, Mocha was doing afternoon drive and I was listening to everybody and looking at everybody, I thought gee, this is the most talent to go in the radio station, and he's doing drive, and I said to Mocha, I said, look, have you ever thought of doing mornings? And he was like, oh, but he thought about it. And then he said, okay, on your one condition, I'll do mornings for you. I said, Okay, what's that? He says that I still do the music, that I'm still the music director. And I said, you know, it's a lot of work doing the morning show and doing the music and that but yeah, okay. And he stayed on doing that. And it wasn't that he was picking bad music, it was just that they were just running amok in terms of we can play anything, but it needed some structure. And there were some just deep tracks and some pretty rough CanCon they were playing that sort of thing. So it's just cleaning it up, right? And pretty obvious. It's just from listening. It's like, okay, this is easy, because it was just so many things that I thought at least were easy to fix. And that's the first thing when I ever jumped in at a radio station is I just listened to it. And I pick oh, yeah. And it'd be like, I can make this sound. I can make this pop. I can make the sound better. But there's been a couple other times I'm like, No, this is pretty good. I'm not sure why they need me. Absolutely, yeah, fair enough. And I think the other part of that is for me, was imaging. The music number one, the clocks, how the music's presented. But imaging to me, has always been at the forefront of what I've done. Really, really strong imaging. For those that don't know it, you know, it's the stuff between the songs that are not the announcers, the IDs, and just having special, a special type of it, whether it's a jingle, or it's, it's just really having a great producer, that was really, really key, really strong producers, I've been so lucky to work with some of the best producers in the business that do great, tight production, and even you know, working with a really good jingle package to make it all just pop and tight on the top 40 radio should be that's got to be that's such a key part of it. And then having an announcers that get it giving them some freedom and playing tracks first that other people wouldn't take a chance on to make the radio station super exciting. Wow, did you hear that song? You having those really key tracks that you're first on? Super exciting, you know, in radio, that's always been a thrill for me, just being on a hot track before other people and not being afraid to play it in heavy, and very few stations are playing it and we're- we just added it and we're playing in heavy rotation. Matt Cundill  53:10 Give me your favorite record that you added first that you're most proud of. Scot Turner  53:13 Ace of Bass comes to mind, you know, in the top 40 realm. We played Ace of Bass before anybody else and a whole number of those Euro records. You know, from Saturday Night - Wakefield to so many others that we played first. And you know the listener reaction and to seeing it in the clubs, that- that was a absolute thrill and CFNY the years that we broke so many tracks, bands, playing stuff before anybody else, was again just just a thrill from you know, the Depeche Mode's and the New Order's, and the Smiths, being able to play a band like the Smiths, that very few stations would touch and just you know, one of the greatest bands of the 80s. Matt Cundill  54:00 Favorite imaging voice for a dance station? Scot Turner  54:04 You know, it just popped in mind. Rest in peace Bumper Morgan. And I remember I was telling you the story when I was on that trip down to the US to listen to some US station, some black stations in some of the key markets, and when I got down to Florida the big station down there was the Power Pig. Matt Cundill  54:24 93.3 the Power Pig. Scot Turner  54:25 That's it. Voiceover  54:28 Power 93. If you ain't crankin' it, you must be yankin' it. Scot Turner  54:35 And they had flipped. I think it was 90? 89, 90, 91 I can't remember when they they flipped to the Power Pig and those that don't know the story just Google it. It's a fantastic radio story. One of the my favorite things was they you know, instead of having expensive promo vehicles, they bought a whole bunch of vehicles from wrecking yard and spray painted them all pink and just spray painted Power Pig on the side of them. And I think they had about nine or 10 of these vehicles just drove them around town. They stood out, they just looked awful, I think was one of the fastest from bottom to the top when they took over that market. Absolutely fantastic. And then the imaging, this guy, Bumper Morgan was his name, and the- I mean, just super in your face. very loud, very American sounding production that I heard that voice I said, okay, I need something for Energy that's just going to just cut through everything that you hear in, in polite Ontario, Canada, Toronto. And so yeah, we had some fun with that. And you know, everything from is is that the CN Tower in your pocket, or are you just happy to hear us? Energy 108. It's just stupid stuff. It was a lot of fun. And just over the top compression production was was a lot of fun. Matt Cundill  56:05 For those who wanted to scroll backwards when you're done this episode. There's an episode with Jason Dixon from last summer, who was on the promo team at the Power Pig and talks about its early days extensively. Yeah. Scot Turner  56:19 Oh, that was a- it was a pretty cool time. Pretty cool time. And it's just been so many other voices, as some of the names just are not in the top of my head right now. But just some other voices in that I've worked with, imaging voices from various stations that I've loved over the years. And again, my producers, you know, from Jay Tuffard, Johnny Q. All the different producers I've worked with over the years have just been fantastic. Matt Cundill  56:47 And producers are important. I know that I've walked into some stations and listened to some imaging from some producers. And I said we're going to need another producer. Is that Mike Gorel? Scot Turner  56:55 Yeah. Wade-o is another guy who still works for Bell Media Toronto, think he does the stuff for Virgin and Chum. Wade Taylor, Wade-o, we call him. A whole bunch of people that came out of out of Energy 108, two guys that actually work out of the US now. One guy on- his name escapes me right now. But he's he's, he works out of the US. But he's the voice for CP24 and a few other people, and that's that's been a thrill in this business that I've got to say that to see people that I've worked with, you know that work for me go on to have these amazing careers and be super successful, many that are still working in radio today.  Mike Gorel. Yeah.  And you can scroll back in the stack as well as listen to my podcast episode I did with him.  Oh, great. Yes. Oh, Mike. Fantastic, you know, and these guys all had great years and just had a knack. And they all had a style. And they all loved to have fun and all loved music. Really good production people, really good producers, can just- they can make the sound of a station. So, so vital. So vital. Tara Sands (Voiceover)  58:09 The Sound Off Podcast. Matt Cundill  58:11 Tell me about your time at Corus, because we've gotten this far. You've worked for a lot of independent people. And now here you are, you're working with Corus, which is really sort of a big corporate conglomeration. Now you got multiple radio stations, you've got 107.5 Dave, and just if everyone's scoring at home, it was Bob FM that started in Winnipeg, which rolled out across America, then it was Jack, for Rogers. And then Corus comes up with Dave and Dave is actually quite a successful brand. So tell me what it was like to work inside of Corus, which was a corporate company that had Nelvana and it had television and cable. And, you know, here we are doing radio. Scot Turner  58:51 You know, I think in those years because you know, originally they were Shaw, and they were forced to spin off Corus for the radio division, I think that actually helped because there was a definite focus on radio and to be a great radio company. And I think those early years, I still very fondly looked back at years with Corus. I learned a lot, worked with so many people. Yeah, and I think they're just their management culture. They did a lot of training. They did, you know, seminars, talk about providing all the tools you need, the support system, the just the network of how everybody worked together. You could call other PDs for stuff, the sharing of what- Hey, that works for you. They're sharing a promo that work in another market. The company was very good at doing that. And I think this is obviously a time where the budgets were much better. And so companies, you know, had budgets to do these yearly, you know, seminars where they just got everybody all the PDs together and put them in a hotel for a couple of days. And you talked ideas and you- you got training and they were, you know, speakers and all these different things they gave you to help you do your job. I couldn't say enough about Corus that way. So I think they had a really good radio culture, really good vision on, you know, where they wanted to grow. And we were able to do a lot with that in and he gave us all that I could do the research. And you know, I'm a love hate relationship with research and you know, part of me like back in the energy days and didn't give a shit about it didn't need to. But when you have that tool, it's great to see when you're right and wrong. You know, he gets great to see a song test. And you're always thinking, oh, like, this is a great song. Let's see how it tests and then you see it and going, Oh, okay, maybe I'm not as smart as I thought. So having, you know, having the access to research, which is very, very expensive for those that know or don't know, I mean, yeah, it's not cheap. And, and so that was a great, valuable thing to have, especially when we did Dave Rocks because or Dave FM, you know, my background had done so much with top 40 and dance music with Energy 108. And before that was alternative music, but just more straight, middle of the road rock, as much as I grew up on a lot of it, wasn't really my forte, so having some of that, you know, audience research and that stuff really, really helped, you know, build that radio station. And one of the things we learned in interesting from Winnipeg, one of the teams that came in and saw the music tests, were talking to Cambridge Kitchener Waterloo, and they said, you know, when we I know that many songs we tested, maybe 8-900,000 songs, but they said comparatively, they said, this is a lot like Winnipeg, this market looks a lot like Winnipeg, and then their, their thirst and love of straight ahead rock with AC/DC. And that was a, you know, a real eye opener, anything. And we had people in the building, that was another funny thing, because they were like, we're playing too much Bryan Adams and, and oh, do we have to play Nickelback, right? And then I remember the music tests. And every time a Nickelback song came on, it went through the roof, you know, had where they had the old dial system, and you could see the, you can see it on the screen and like, holy shit, and it's like, you know, I had to go back to all the announcers going on, you know, Nickelback, yes, we're gonna play Nickelback, and we're gonna play a lot of Nickelback because the audience loves Nickelback. Sorry. Matt Cundill  1:02:29 You're right. It was an excellent leadership team at Corus who gave us all the resources. And you know, there were a few times when you and I would get together with Alan Cross, I think Dunner, a number of other- we all get together, we would just swap ideas and you show your ideas and pass them around the table. And I'd have phone calls from people saying, tell me about this Guy's Garage marketing that you're doing. And how do you do it on zero budget? Because for seven years, I had no budget in Winnipeg, yet we had successful marketing. And I'd call you up, I'd call anybody, I just sometimes just call you up and say, hey, what's new? What are we doing? How are things going? But to your point, yeah, Metallica, we- Metallica had the six of the top 10 songs in the test. You know, every year, and I think we also use the same research people. I think it was P1 research with Ken Benson. Scot Turner  1:03:18 Exactly, Ken and them. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, that's what he says, wow, this is this looks like Winnipeg, and you know, and the AC/DC did fantastic. And we went deep, you know, on AC/DC tracks and other tracks. And it was a lot of fun and eye opening and just getting to understand how they wanted to rock and it was, you know, was Ken and that team that came in and said, you know, the rock is testing- this is when we were Jack-Bob format, the classic hits and you know, the pop wasn't testing as nearly as good as the Rock Tracks. And it was just like, money, just get rid of the pop stuff. And just- Matt Cundill  1:03:52 Dave was a rock station. Scot Turner  1:03:54 Right? Yeah. And so when we first started, it was a it was a blend of the pop and the rock as the Jack playing was like, you know, the Madonna and you play AC/DC beside Madonna, and then you play- and everybody was the- the- the rock was just so far ahead of the pop in the testing. It was like, let's just get rid of the pop stuff. And just go rock and that's when the station really took off. And since then, I think to this day, it's been the number 1 25-54 rock station in Kitchener. Has been for forever and does really, really well Adult 25-54. Matt Cundill  1:04:29 Tell me about your experience at The Move. Scot Turner  1:04:32 Oh, boy. Yeah. So brief run. It was a tough one because and to this day, that frequency's just is cursed and struggles. today as today radio. Matt Cundill  1:04:45 It's 93.5, which was the original Flow frequency, I believe. Scot Turner  1:04:50 Yeah. And I think understandably, when they took on Flow, the station was doing okay, but it was in that that just below the mid pack and it's like how do we get it, you know, from a four to a six share, you know, or what's going on. And that's where they started experimenting. And they tried this Move thing, which was, you know, more throwbacks and classics, classic hip hop, r&b. And they brought me in, because that wasn't quite working out the way they expected. And they brought me in, it was an interesting time, some great people there, but I did struggle, because they were not giving me the freedom and all the control I wanted. And I do like a lot of control. It's like, just let me do my thing. And either the ratings go up, and then we're good. If they don't then fire me, you know, but let me give it a shot. So it was tough. Because when I went in, I want to change this, this, this, this and this. And there was like, I understand that you've already made a few changes. So you don't want to change everything. But it was like, yes, yes. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. And yes, and no, no, no, no, no. And so at one point, eventually, I was able to make another presentation and get more of the things I needed, I think it needed. And I went in with that. And that was only given 13 weeks, 13 weeks, they pulled the plug on it and went back to Flow. I was frustrated, because I wasn't given a long enough an opportunity to see my vision come to be, but I understand the pressures. It's Toronto radio, and it's scary. There's a lot of money involved. And I don't think they were wrong. I thought going back to Flow wasn't- wasn't a bad idea. But then again, you know, maybe it's because of the flip flop and changes that that Flow never was able to gain traction and grow. We talked about this earlier that how is it that Flow wasn't a top three station in Toronto? That's just- it's bizarre that that never happened. Matt Cundill  1:07:01 Yeah, and you know, the last four or five ideas that have gone on that frequency, I've said, oh, that's gonna work, including The Move, I thought, oh, there's gonna be my favorite radio station, oh, that's gonna work. And then they change it, that'll work. And then the next one, and none of them have worked. And at which point, I said, I don't think I can be a program director anymore, because I've- I've totally rubber stamped all these great ideas and nothing moves. But but to be fair, all new radio ideas, regarding format don't seem to work anymore. Scot Turner  1:07:30 100%. Matt Cundill  1:07:31 Okay, why is that? Scot Turner  1:07:32 After the year 2000. I think if you're going to start a new station, or start a new format, with very few exceptions, it's so difficult as because the internet had taken hold in streaming. Well, Napster, of course was was here, and the sharing of .mp3's and people were finding other ways to discover music and listen to music and radio just lost that stranglehold of power. And so, you know, the stations that have done well over the years, and to this day have were long established, branded for many, many years. And certainly stations like a, you know, Boom in Toronto, if you're playing a lot of classic hits that people grew up on radio with is a recipe for success. You know, starting a new format and why today, radio is not working in, in Toronto, outside of the fact that that format, when we look at it now, it's only really truly Edmonton that it's worked right? On the scale? Matt Cundill  1:08:35 Yeah. And it's, it's number one females 25-54 in the latest ratings that I just read earlier today. Scot Turner  1:08:40 Yeah. And so I think that's just a pure anomaly that this is it's not a format. It's just a radio station that worked really well in Edmonton. And I think everybody should understand. But you know, the challenge for today in Toronto, and anybody trying a new format, in an established city of radio stations, it's just like, you could spend a fortune and not go anywhere. And I just I think that that time has come and gone in the world of radio. So I think you've just got to take what you have, and make it the best, you know, take your heritage, and just build on that. That's the best thing you can do today. It's just- it's too- it's too splintered. There may be some resurgence someday, who knows that the radio could have a new revival like vinyl records did or something could happen. Nobody knows the future. But I think I would not spend a fortune on marketing to try and launch a new format and radio today. Not a chance. Matt Cundill  1:09:40 If I bought a radio station for you tomorrow, what would you do with it? Scot Turner  1:09:43 Well, the fun side of me would go classic alternative. That would be fun. But again, it's a new station even though it's you're playing you know established older music, you still got to try to cut in to what is existing in that market very difficult, right? Matt Cundill  1:09:59 Well, I don't think it's nuts. I hear new order all the time on TikTok. Scot Turner  1:10:03 Yeah, and I guess it's what's out there that's that nobody's doing that people know, the music is enough of the music known to be successful. Yeah. And you could say you could argue that that's part of Boom's success that they play, you know, a certain percentage certainly of alternative music, certainly from the 80s that crossed over and became mainstream, right, and Boom plays a lot of really well tested records and it's just such a well programmed radio station, from all the things we've talked about, you know, from the music, to the announcers. And everything in between, it's just a great radio station. Matt Cundill  1:10:40 It's very, very expensive to toss out a brand. And we've talked a few times about oh, we're gonna get rid of Flow, we're gonna get rid of Power 97, we're gonna get rid of Cool FM in Ottawa, like some of the more laughable ones that go on, and we're not talking about stations to get purchased, they get rebranded and it's incredibly expensive to go into build them back up. So I think it's a great piece of advice not to do it, and you said something, and that's sort of double down on your heritage. And along comes a CFNY documentary. And I've heard some radio stations in the last little while, they'll get to 25 years, they'll get to their 30th, they get to their 50th. And they don't do your long promotions to celebrate the stuff, and to really acknowledge their past. And I don't know what that is, I don't know if that- well, could be budget, or maybe the people who don't listen to us anymore, but what an opportunity to talk about the past and talk about where you where you've come from and where you may be going. But here's the CFNY documentary, these things never seem to happen inside the radio station, they seem to happen from outside forces. So what's the genesis of this? Scot Turner  1:11:45 Yeah, that's true. And I think sometimes a business in radio stations get caught so much up into the day to day and there needs to be somebody that kind of steps back and go, ey, you know, where are we in, whether it's a Tim Hortons, celebrating a 60 years, you know, it probably took somebody in the marketing department to go, hey, hey, by the way, you know, we're coming up on 60 years, we should do something, and there's probably a whole bunch of people, oh, I'd never thought of that until somebody was paying attention. And again, in a lot of corporate in the corporate business world, you know, radio stations these days are owned by media companies are other companies that radio isn't necessarily their number one business plan. And so it's important to have people involved in the station that can can look at those sorts of things. And I remember, you know, when I was at CFNY it was doing some research, but it started in 1984. And somewhere in there, I was doing some research for live in Toronto, and I came across oh, the station actually started in 1977. Oh, and it's, you know, 1976. Next year, we're coming up on 10 years. And that's when I went down to a few people station and the promo department started saying, Hey, we should do something for you know, the 10th anniversary of the radio station. And it just grew from there. And it turned into the Canada Day CFNY Anniversary Special, which really took off and later became EdgeFest. So that was just a simple little, hey, you know, it's our anniversary is coming up. But I think it's take somebody to just pay attention to these sorts of things that aren't normally thought about, you know, so Alan Cross, really, you know, is the credit for coming up with, hey, we should do a documentary on the radio station. And I think part of that because he had seen and we had seen some documentaries, from other really influential, important kind of outlier radio stations in the US that had made a mark in the music industry made a mark in in their city for being bold and brave and doing and playing music. Nobody else was playing. They're having an interesting story. And I think once he started looking at it and talking to a few people, we all thought, Oh, my God, it's a great story. Especially because it started at this tiny little radio station, literally in a house in Brampton. You know, it wasn't a Toronto station. It was a Brampton radio station. So there's a whole bunch of elements. And I think when when I came on board to be part of the executive producer team, we brought in a couple of people that knew how to put a film together that knew how to do documentaries, because we were just a couple of music geeks that love radio and certainly worked at the station and knew knew the station story, but like is it interesting enough, but that's one of the things when we talk to the other people there. There's like all they love this little house story. There's a tiny little house that was filthy and infested with mice and was barely paying the bills and so many other little stories that went along with it. And all of a sudden, you know, it's it's the station starting at a time when punk is just happening, and new waves happening. And all these really cool new new trends in music were happening. So it all kind of blended together to you know, this is a story that could be told. And so that's where it started and it just grew from there. And we are, as we speak, just waiting for a debut date, there's just a few things that are that need to be ironed out. One of the things that takes time in doing a documentary is getting music clearances, that is not only expensive, but time consuming. And so I think we're just a couple more that we're waiting for. We've reached out to some of the festivals, some key festivals that do premieres, not the least of which is TIFF. And we're just waiting to hear some answers on getting some some premiere dates. And then we can do some probably select theater openings and screenings in certain towns and places. And then eventually, I think the goal is to get it on a streaming service so people can just in the comfort of their own home. Watch the documentary, but we're also very excited about it. Matt Cundill  1:16:13 Good. Yeah, no, anytime there's an opportunity to celebrate radio, and I am beginning to see a trend of radio's past being celebrated. And it's great to see these stations here today, just in the last few weeks, you know, talked about Melbourne Radio Wars, which is something that's going on right now, Craig Bruce was on the show, he talked about it, as well, Roz and Mocha have a documentary about how they've come together, a docuseries. And that's a podcast, and I started this doing radio stories. But you know, after eight years, we're still doing it. We're writing another chapter of radio stories every week in this thing, and I'll probably be doing this till I die. I don't think I'll retire. Scot Turner  1:16:52 No, and it is and you know, one of the things is, as we were doing it, we knew these things, but when you're talking about it again, you realize how powerful radio was. And and for breaking music, like when you, you know, talk about the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, and to a degree, the 90s, there was no other place to get your music. And it's where everybody went for their music. Very, very powerful. And even a time, not every station. But the one of the unique things about CFNY, and as a- an announcer and DJ on CFNY it's still, it's still bizarre to think that I could actually pick my own records, you know, the hour started and I my song's running out and I can look at a wall of music and I just run over and grab a record, like, fantastic. Matt Cundill  1:17:43 I have 20 year olds in the house. And I can't believe that they left a major market radio station between the hours of midnight and 6am in the hands of a 20 year old. When I was 20. I won't even let my kids get- use the car to go down the street to get milk. Scot Turner  1:18:00 Yeah, and just you know, the fact that there were live overnight shows, and very powerful because they were all the shift workers and people that couldn't sleep or people up studying. And there was somebody they could talk to, or you know, call the station, call the announcer, call the DJ. That was pretty cool. A lost art. And you know, who knows, that could come back someday. Matt Cundill  1:18:23 I used to listen to CFNY, actually just after the mistake of '88, which I hope is documented in the film, and you have a chapter on it. Scot Turner  1:18:31 Yes. Matt Cundill  1:18:32 Good. So it was 1989 and I was working all nights at a radio station and you guys are on a satellite dish. And I go what is Deadly Hedley's all night dance party? Why am I taping this? And why am I going to listen to it on Sunday evening? Scot Turner  1:18:48 Oh, absolutely, yeah, Hedley and Chef, you know, just huge part of that station, so influential. And we do talk about that on the doc. And yeah, I forgot about that.  I remember that, there was- for whatever reason, it was on some satellite feed. And we had other people you know, in other markets tell us that they were listening, you know, overnights and stuff. Matt Cundill  1:19:09 Listen, it sounded great. How long are you gonna stay retired, by the way? Scot Turner  1:19:13 Yes. So yeah, retirement, this is a new thing. I'm still getting- I'm still finding my groove. But I love it. I just don't want to do nine to five Monday to Friday anymore. But also there are personal reasons the you know, from a various family, aging family members that have needed attention and care, not the least of which was my mother who just passed away just a couple of months ago, but a great life and lived to the age of 87. And I've got a you know, a stepfather who has very bad progressing dementia that I'm helping with. And so that's a part of, you know, reality of, of life, when you're my age and you've got parents that are in their 80's so, you know, some are healthy some aren't. So that's been part of it. But also yeah, I just didn't want to do nine to five, Monday to Friday. So you know, I'm open to doing the little side projects and things here and there. And obviously this CFNY documentary has been a thrill to be a part of, knew nothing about filmmaking so I've learned a lot about that, about doing a documentary and how that's done. And so that's- that's thrilling. And of course, when it when it comes out, we're- we're hoping to do, as I mentioned, some screenings and have some fun around that, including, you know, maybe some dance parties, you know, maybe bring back the video roadshow and do a couple of eve- events. So that would be fun. And you know, other things that may come up, so open to things, but I think just out of the gate for me is I've got just a whole bunch of other small things. Like I said, some family stuff that I got to look after, before I jump too much into any other project at this time. Matt Cundill  1:20:58 Scot, thanks so much for doing this. I've been wanting to do this for years. We couldn't do it when we worked together because we actually had to do work. Surprise, surprise. Scot Turner  1:21:07 Yes, indeed, indeed. But thank you. Yeah, no, it's been awesome. Thank you. Sorry it took a little while, but been a thrill. Anytime. Tara Sands (Voiceover)  1:21:14 The Sound Off Podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski. Edited by Taylor McLean. Social media by Aidan Glassey. Another great creation from the Soundoff Media Company. There's always more at soundoffpodcast.com.

Heather Furr is the Director of Digital for the Bob & Sheri Show. They have 70 radio affiliates that they work with. Inside the walls of one radio station, digital strategy is an ongoing discussion and debate over best practices, staying on brand and what makes content go viral. Heather's work day is about deciding what is important in the moment and making sure the show is represented online whenever and all the time. (Yes I wrote that) Our discussion included the challenges faced by young people in the radio industry, including limited opportunities for growth and development, lack of competitive pay, and the need for radio to adapt to changing times. Heather the importance of adapting to industry trends, managing expectations, and providing education and training to support young talent. We also highlighted the often-overlooked contributions of industry professionals, including promotions assistants, traffic department staff, and digital content creators. Additionally, Heather mentioned the significance of social media in creating a sense of community and connection among their audience, and the importance of building a strong online presence for radio stations. Finall,y (and this is the best part) Heather shared her strategies for creating a community around their podcast and prioritizing digital platforms. One of the best things to come out of the pandemic was Happy Hour with Bob and Sheri. Here the team gets together for an hour of catch up and fun with their fans. With so many people stuck in their homes - it was a great way to keep one another company. Here are the co-founders of NOW! Media, Tony Garcia and Sheri Lynch discussing how businesses can see their way up to becoming a national brand. As I mentioned earlier, these are all sharp radio people who know about radio, digital, brand building and the power of personality. If you a regular listener of the show, you know Sheri Lynch. Tony Garcia is an accomplished radio industry professional with extensive expertise in syndicated radio programs, platforms, and services. He owns Global Media Services, founded in 2014, and co-owns Now! Media, launched in 2017. He was recently named one of Radio Ink's Top 20 Leaders for 2024! TRANSCRIPTION Tara Sands (Voiceover) 0:02 The sound off podcast. The show about Podcast and Broadcast - Starts Now! Matt Cundill 0:13 So two of the biggest episodes we have ever done on the podcast involve the Bob and Jerry show. It was the first time we had Sheri Lynch. And the second time we had Jerry ledge. Just to recap, the Bob and Sheri show is a syndicated morning radio show that runs across 70 stations in the United States. They bought the show from intercom back in 2017, and took the show independent. That meant they would be covering the production costs and managing the relationships with radio affiliates and handling all the business around the show, including social media. The thing that really strikes me about the people who work on the Bob and Sheree show is that everyone is smart. And everyone is radio smart. One of the first moves they made back in 2017 was to retain Heather for she manages the digital and social elements for the show. And what emanates from her computer is often more than what comes out of entire radio stations. So today, I thought I would ask her how she does it. And now Heather furred joins me from Concord, North Carolina. And we start at the beginning, Heather Furr 1:15 it started for me when I was about 12 years old, really truthfully, not like the job portion of it. But the interest in it, I would sit in my room at night because I didn't have a television in my room. Let's sit in my room and night with the radio and switch through all the different channels and listen to the nighttime DJs. And I just really loved that. Sometimes I would call in and talk to them. Of course, they knew I was young. So they never heard any of that. But because a very obviously sounded like a 12 year old child, but it started there. And then my best friend won a radio contest when we were in high school and I got to go to the local I heart station and walk around it was to meet an artist but they gave us a tour of the station. And I remember seeing the big board with all the buttons on it. I said I want to do that I want to push those buttons. That's what I want for my Matt Cundill 2:08 life. What was the station and who is the artist? The artist Heather Furr 2:13 was Sarah Barelas. And the station it was a 96 one contest? Matt Cundill 2:17 Have you ever won a radio contest yourself? Heather Furr 2:20 No. But then, you know, I immediately started working in radio after college like the day I finished my internship, I had a job. And so I've never been able to actually enter radio contests. Matt Cundill 2:35 For college you went to Western Carolina, is that right? I did. Would you take Heather Furr 2:39 communication with a focus and radio actually just recently went up there and did a panel for them for their radio students. But I used to work at power 95, which was volunteer station there. And I would do a 12am to 2am show where it was just playing whatever. I didn't really like the DJ side of it. I'll be honest, I don't like talking. This is not my natural thing. But I love the touching the buttons. I love the editing, I love the choosing the songs and clipping things together. And all of that sort of behind the scenes thing. Matt Cundill 3:15 Did you know what behind the scenes things were available to you when you said I want to get in there and push the buttons? What does somebody who does not want to be a personality per se pursue to get into radio. Heather Furr 3:27 I thought I wanted to be a producer. You know I work for the Bob and Jerry show. Now I thought I wanted to do what I saw Todd do I thought I wanted that job. But it turns out I actually don't want that job. But that's what I thought that's what I went to college to try to do was to be the producer behind the board with all the all the stuff and then I had sort of always had a knack or a talent for building communities on social media. I used to run fan clubs for certain bands. I had a very thriving Jonas Brothers fan club back in the day that had millions of people in it that I ran. And so that ended up being the path that I veered off of in in radio instead of being the person at the board cutting the audio. I ended up doing something completely different that I did not anticipate. Matt Cundill 4:20 And when you left university, you jumped right into radio. I Heather Furr 4:25 did my internship was with ace and TJ at the time. And then I got sort of scooped up out of that internship by one of the producers. I went on an interview with the director of digital at 1079. The link who knew one of the producers at the stations I had just interned at and they spoke very highly of me when I came over. So immediately I had a job, which is a very rare thing. And Matt Cundill 4:52 you started doing exactly what you set out to do which is to really push the buttons and paint the pictures behind what we're hearing On the radio Heather Furr 5:00 well, so I was part time as a digital Operations Assistant to start with. And I wish it was that jump of like immediately doing something super interesting. But what I did for the first several years of my career was put the ads on the website. That was all I did. You know, at least it was still behind the scenes, but and I did find it interesting. And I would volunteer myself to pitch in every department, I could. But yeah, I did, I did end up behind the scenes, but it took a little bit to get to something that was more in depth. Matt Cundill 5:33 I know, it was just a summer short period of time. But what did you learn from working with ace and TJ, Heather Furr 5:38 I think that I learned that it was going to be a lot harder to navigate through radio than I anticipated. Those stations, they were so big, there were so many of them, there were so many people in that building, it's a lot to navigate, you know, and you're in college and you're in an internship, you're just a silly kid, really, and you make a lot of mistakes. And you say a lot of things you shouldn't say, you know, that was the thing that really I took away from that was just being like, it's going to be a little bit harder to navigate the people of the industry than you think you always think the job itself is going to be hard. It's really the people. And Matt Cundill 6:16 you're getting into radio at a time when there's a lot of people who have answers. There's a lot of pressure, and especially between the department you were in and what you did versus what radio traditionally was known for. So I'm speaking about the dichotomy between you're in digital, we need digital money. This is on air, we've always relied on this money. So was it stressed from day one for you? Yeah, Heather Furr 6:43 so that was 2015, the job that I was doing, nobody had ever done at that station before. When I was working as a digital Operations Assistant at the link. Nobody had ever done that before. So they didn't know if I was doing a bad job or a good job. They just knew, you know, there's revenue coming in, and we need to manage these clients. And then when my job sort of grew into content, on the, you know, websites and social media, that's another thing that like, there was an immense amount of pressure to never make a mistake, to never get negative feedback. And then everything had to sort of be a smash hit. And I had a lot of people ask me, you know, what's the point of this social media thing? And that was really odd to me. And there, you know, I worked with a lot of really, really much smarter than me individuals then. But you know, there were some people that really still at the time, rallied against social media. And they thought it was a waste of our time and resources. Matt Cundill 7:45 How much effort do you need to put in to sell people that it isn't in what you tell them, and I'll be the dinosaur on this. I've always been a proponent of this. But I used to get the same sort of pushback. And I sometimes wonder if I didn't tell people the right thing, in order to convince them that it was worth our time, then Heather Furr 8:02 I did it completely the wrong way. But now I know you should show them rather than tell them. So if I can show examples, like when I'm talking to students, or other people in radio, who are struggling with Why do I have to make videos and post them on Instagram? I try to show them, you know, the impact, we do this thing for Bob and Sheri, it's a weekly happy hour. And people will sometimes question you know, that's a, an extra hour of work. Why? Why would you do that? Why would anybody sign up to do that, because of the value to the listener. They feel there are some people that's the only adult interaction they get all week, some people in our audience were the only people they talk to. And it's that it's creating that bond with the listener, you have to have boundaries, and you have to be careful parasocial relationships. But it's important to also still build a bond and be a friend to the listener, and be somebody that makes them feel seen and heard. And so it's, it's so much easier to convince people the power of social media, if you show them, you show them these instances of people reaching out and, you know, my boss, Sheri Lynch, she, she is so great at this and that people will send her DMs with their, you know, about their kid being born, and she remembers that they were pregnant, you know, nine months ago. And it's just really creating a sort of community with people. Matt Cundill 9:27 So I remember happy hour, because I was very bored in March of 2020. And you guys came to the rescue shortly after with happy I want to think well, I'll just sit and watch this. And I mean, correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think it's still going because, you know, Sheri has that empathy as well. We can't stop this. People are liking this. And there are people who will be disappointed if we stopped this. Heather Furr 9:50 Four years later. We're still doing it for that reason. There are still people who, for whatever reason, they they still can't get out and it's is a really nice for them to be able to spend some time with friends and they make friends in the comments with each other, you know, so it's not just us, they're there to talk to you, they're there to talk to each other, we have some that call themselves, they're the happy hour besties. And they're always talking to each other in the comments. And that's really like that is when somebody asks, Hey, you know, what's the point of this social media thing? That's what I'm showing them. That's, that's the proof, because they're always going to remember that we were the ones that brought them together, you know, they're always we're always going to have a place in their mind and their life because of that. Wow, Matt Cundill 10:35 I think back to the four years of happy hour, what have you seen from the social media side that you needed to change? Or changes along the way to keep this thing sustainable? And going? Or how did you grow it? Did you add any platforms, for instance, once Heather Furr 10:52 life started to return to normal, we had to change the format a little bit, to where we don't do it every week, it is three weeks out of every month, because turns out, you know, we do have events, we have to go back to now. And there's usually about one week a month that we all just can't make it. I also try to provide different content, you know, artists, interviews, we've had clients that want to come on and talk to the audience. That's been great. And I try to give the different things that we bring true weird stuff for examples of podcasts that that Sheri does. And so we do one of the happy hours a month around that true weird stuff content for just that portion of the audience. So it allows them to have a specific time to talk about the stuff that they want to talk about. With us. That's really the major change I've made is the the formatting. Matt Cundill 11:44 So I'm just imagining, because you did have a very extensive digital life in commercial radio for six years. And I can see something like Happy Hour getting shelved after a particular period of time. And instead of evolving it like you have, you know, as an independent group, it probably would have been shuttled, perhaps in the radio world. Yeah, I was doing Heather Furr 12:07 something at the link with a friend of mine, it was What's up Wednesday, and it eventually did get shelved in a similar way, because of time constraints. So I do think it would have been shelved in typical radio fashion, because it wouldn't have been seen as important. And it's not a what you would consider a major revenue builder. It's about creating that core group of audience. And you know, sometimes people will see it, and they'll say, well, there were only 300. Live watchers this week. Yes. But if you got 300 people in a room with you at an event, you would notice that would be considered a smash hit. So there's also you know, that side of it, Matt Cundill 12:46 if you could tell radio, a couple of things about what they're missing a social media and give them a shake. How do they screw up digital so badly? Heather Furr 12:53 I think they're doing it with the wrong thought process. Like a lot of things in radio, they don't put much effort or money into it if they can't see an immediate return. Right. And social media doesn't work like that. It's a slow build, it's a tool for yourself more than it is a tool for your clients. Like it's great if the client can get some value from coming onto your social platforms. But radio station should be using it the same way like Duolingo does, to really build themselves up and create a sort of fun, interactive community for themselves. And they don't do that. Because that's ultimately that's what radio is supposed to be right. It's a voice of the community. And the social media has somehow just gotten either forgotten or isn't treated that way. Matt Cundill 13:42 So you said the word community probably five times even started to say it when you sort of referenced before you got into radio. So you've always thought of it as community building. And here we are in 2024, where these are the buzzwords now. I mean, this is stuff you've been like practicing all along. And Heather, now's your time. It's here. So what did you see 10 years ago that the rest of us didn't, Heather Furr 14:10 I think I was one of those people that lived my life on the internet, I was a very introverted person, all of my friends joke that like I spent 95% of my life online. And it was much truer then than it is now. Because I'm, you know, I'm a big reader. I'm an avid gamer. I do all of these things that are in the internet space. And so I see the interactions, I see the people there. And I see a lot of people are just lonely. It's even more true post pandemic than it ever was before. It's Matt Cundill 14:43 fairly well documented a couple of times because we've had Sheri on the show and she's talked about making that jump from working in radio to this is now going to be the business the shows the business. I'm going to buy the show from you. How did you get on that train? Sheri Heather Furr 14:58 and I have always kind of Have you know how you meet somebody and you're just on the same mental wavelength? Like when I met Sheri? Yeah, that's how Sheri and I have always been. And I was going through a really rough time, at the stations where, you know, being a young person in radio these days is not easy. And there's no place for you to really grow anymore, truthfully. And one day, Sheri said, Hey, we want to bring somebody on to do digital. Do you want to do it? And I said, Yes, I do. And that just so happened to be March 4 2020 and 2 weeks later, the whole world shut down. Matt Cundill 15:39 And you became the most important person on that team. Heather Furr 15:42 I would not say that Sheri is still the most important person on that team. Matt Cundill 15:49 You know, you and I have had conversations before about working in the environment with high stress, where your digital where you're frowned upon, treated secondary with the content that you're creating, you know, it's radio first, it's digital second, and it had a mental effect on you. And to the point where I think I was reading an article that Sheri had written, well, if we're gonna have fun, fun, fun, fun, fun at the radio station. Why? Why? Why am I in the bathroom holding this person? While she's like having a very stressful moment? And so you made a reference to young people not being able to connect with what's inside radio stations, is that changing, you think and not the working with no, but from what you've heard, Heather Furr 16:30 I still have a lot of friends. And I will tell you young people are leaving the industry in droves. And one of the reasons for that is pay, obviously, there's not enough competitive pay. But the other thing is, they're not allowed to actually learn, you know, you're put in a in a job, and you're siloed off in that job. There are people that started in promotions, gigs and have been in promotions, gigs for five plus years, but can't seem to either move from that assistant job up to a manager or, you know, get to another place in the building that they would want to be, and they can't get the opportunities they're looking for. And it's not for lack of talent. And that's the other thing. But radios lost the art of growing young people up into positions. You know, and I just see so many people, you know, my age, I'm in my 30s now, and younger, who were sort of stuck. I stayed in sort of the same department for five years, I stayed in the same job for two without any ability to grow upward because I didn't fit the stereotype of what they were looking for in that upper level of people. Matt Cundill 17:40 You had a chance to go back to where you learned radio. Are they teaching it the right way? Heather Furr 17:47 Yeah, one of the things I really appreciate about like Westerns teachers, and the program is they're, you know, they're talking about AI. They're talking about social media, they're talking about podcasting. And the conversation of building your own voice on these digital platforms, is what they're doing with their teaching. So it's not just the towers and the editing, and, and all of that they're doing the other side of it. They have grown that program and changed the way that they've gone about teaching it. And so I really do think, yes, they're teaching it the right way. When I was there originally, I wasn't taught you know, about social media. They did teach websites and an elective course. And we weren't taught anything about podcasting. So they really have moved with the times on that. Matt Cundill 18:38 And What questions did they have for you? Um, the Heather Furr 18:41 students had a lot of really fantastic questions about how to build websites. You know, I was getting pulled aside after they were too nervous to ask but also navigating the industry as a young woman, how to begin with your podcast, how to market your podcast, where they should market, their podcast, how to find an audience and build a community. They were asking all sorts of wonderful questions. Matt Cundill 19:08 How optimistic are you about their future? Heather Furr 19:11 I am very optimistic actually. Because they are being educated to work with you know, I'm going to say the dirty word here, AI. They're being encouraged to work with it and not against it. So I'm very optimistic for the next group of young people. The one thing that always makes me nervous is I still don't think the rest of radio has caught up to giving opportunity in the industry to young people, and letting them make mistakes and working with them through the mistakes rather than just firing them. Tara Sands (Voiceover) 19:45 transcription of the sound off podcast is powered by the you may also like podcast, the show about people places and things. Follow the show on your favorite podcast app, or at You may also like dotnet Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover) 20:00 This podcast supports podcasting 2.0. So feel free to send us a boost. If you're listening on a new podcast app, find your new app now at podcasting, two point org slash apps. That's podcasting. Two point org slash Matt Cundill 20:14 apps. When you and I spoke at Podcast Movement, it incredibly fair criticism. And one that has stuck with me about this show is there are not enough young people on the show. And my take, and I guess why I don't have as many young people on the show is because I'm not sure what stories they can tell, because they're kind of stuck being order takers and pushing things through. So what stories Am I missing here that need to come out on this show? Heather Furr 20:41 I think everywhere in each part of the building, they're interesting stories. You know, I've known people who are promotions assistants, putting on some of the most miraculous feats of entertainment for an audience that have ever seen. With a shoestring budget budget, I mean, just zip ties and hopes. That's, that's what they're running on. And those are, to me, the unsung hero of most radio stations. And I, I know that they're not often looked at, because they're not talkers, they're like me, they were people behind the scenes. But they have some amazing stories to tell they've done some incredible things. I'm always at all when I go and I see the event and then realize these people are getting paid, you know, probably close to minimum wage, and they've just done this most incredible thing. And they're nice to listeners and their listeners that come to every event and know the names of all the promo staff and come to say hi to them and really love them. And those people to me, those are stories that are worth telling. Yes, they're young people, yes, they're relatively new to the industry. No, they may not have a big name or a big following. But there's so much that they do the same thing with the, you know, on air traffic department that does all of the commercial placements and things like that they pull together some of the most magical things fitting all of those spots in during the holidays. And they're working, you know, 1216 hours. And I worked in the traffic department for you know, a couple of months filling in for someone. So I've seen it firsthand what it takes to really do that job in its highest stress, because they're catching all of the attitude from upper management and from sales staff. And from on air talent, they're getting it from all sides of the coin, when they're just trying to do what is considered a just a task or anti job. Matt Cundill 22:39 And to that one of the things that I've noticed, whether it's in the US or in Canada is that when we have those successes, we do not spend any time telling anybody about those successes, it used to be a press release, simply go out, it would get you know, run in all access.com and may rest in peace. I don't know where to go get my radio news anymore. It's tough to find those stories. So by the way, if you're listening to this, and you do have a phenomenal story about radio success story, do let me know, we'd love to have you on the show, that sort of thing. As for the digital stuff that you do with Bob and Sheri, here, you come with this huge skill set of what you know. And you come into the show. And pandemic aside. I'm just gonna guess you're super, super heavy on Facebook. But you've got to cover most of America with some of this content. You've got markets across the US. You're busy every day. Yeah, absolutely. And then there's podcasts. And there's the content from the show. What's your day look like? Heather Furr 23:38 Most of it is spent on on Facebook, going through comments, sifting. Some of that is moderation. And then like most of us, I spend several hours trapped in the abyss that is my email. And then there's video editing right now website coding, website, rearranging, like all sorts of things like that. We have a premium subscription that I manage completely on my own, and then I run the happy hour. So yeah, it stays pretty busy. And it just floats from one thing to the next, which for me is really good because it keeps me engaged. Constantly, you know, I can edit a video or create a graphic and then bounce to doing something else. When I am done or need a break from it because staring at a video if you're especially if you're editing one that's particularly long, you can kind of become blind to certain things in that video, Matt Cundill 24:34 named the Radio Conference. Somebody has talked about subscription radio in some capacity. They are doing it in in Denmark, but here you are with with Bob and Sharon, you've got a subscription tier that you can subscribe to. So what does the subscription tier Get me the super user and the super listener? So Heather Furr 24:52 for us, it's some extra content. So some special exclusives that are just behind there like recipes or It is when we all are together, some older stuff that has never before been released, and we just put in there for fun. And then there's access to old chatroom bits, people really enjoyed the chat room from years ago. And it costs a lot to host those things on a regular, you know, just a regular podcast. So to offset that cost, we put it behind the premium. They have commercial free versions of the podcast that they can access through their preferred podcast listening software, whether that's iTunes, Android, Spotify, and it's completely commercial free. As well, as you know, we'll do specific, like holiday oriented releases for things, we'll put special episodes out, there's a lot of stuff back there, that just makes it a value. Matt Cundill 25:52 It's incredible to how many are on the team, I count 678, I think it's eight. And by the way, if you're listening to this, and you think, you know, the bobbin Sheri show is just it's a show that runs across, you know, the people who are involved with this. And I've got Heather on here, because Heather knows, digital and manages this, this big property in this big entity. And it's super powerful, because I've had Sheri on my show, and she shared it on Facebook and kaboom. That was 2000 downloads. I mean, I usually get that in a month, you know, and here here it was one share on Facebook and blammo. But Tony Garcia is also part of it. And in radio, Inc, he's listed as one of the most top 20 influential in radio in America. So what you guys are doing, you know, it really should be copied and emulated. And I really thank you, by the way for sharing some of this inside stuff. And Facebook is still is it King really with what you're doing? Heather Furr 26:47 So that is a question I get asked all of the time, and it is highly dependent on your demographic. So for us, yes, but for maybe a younger group, they probably want to be on Instagram, I would say tick tock but you know, there's some up in the air about whether or not we'll have access to that, or YouTube. And it's very dependent on your audience. If you are geared more towards men, you may want to look at doing things on Twitch, or Twitter or x now, or Reddit, because that's more the male dominated populations of the audience. So it's really going to be highly dependent on your demographic. Matt Cundill 27:27 And you haven't given anything up though, you're totally everywhere. I'm Heather Furr 27:31 a little bit everywhere at the show, you know, we have names everywhere, but we don't necessarily use x, there are some shows that get a lot of value from it, we don't, that's one thing I do encourage people to do is let go of the platforms that one bring, you know, community value, you know, if the community in a place, you know, like x, for example, is not your listeners, they're not listening to the show and it's hyper negative, then you don't need to be there. There's no point for you know, it's it's just going to drag down, you know, what you're trying to accomplish, which is building a community. Matt Cundill 28:06 I'm so glad you mentioned that, because I asked the question I sort of had x in mind. So I don't think I've seen the bobbin Sheri show do much on X in the last six months. You let it go. And I'm having a little bit of trouble letting it go. And maybe I shouldn't let it go. But kudos on you for recognizing that. So if I were to get into the Bob and Sheri community, what are the values with this ethos? What's the mission statement? Heather Furr 28:30 For me, it's creating a positive environment where we can have some laughs because that's, that's what we do. We're a comedy show, where we can have some laughs and the front focus is always to bring the people back to listen to the show. But it's really just about having some laughs with people and making them feel like they're seen and heard. And I know that is like so cliche, but that, for me, that's something I have been doing, you know, for six, seven years now, is just trying to make the audience feel like they've got somebody they can talk to in Matt Cundill 29:04 us. For those who haven't connected to the show. And I don't know, Bob and sharing my market, how can I listen to the show, we Heather Furr 29:11 have a 24/7 Bob and Sheri stream. We have the podcasts which you can find it Bob and jerry.com. And anywhere that you get your podcasts, they're everywhere. And you can find them all over our social medias, which are always you know, Bob and Sheri on Facebook, it's Bob and Sheri radio. And that's also where you'll get the happy hour Matt Cundill 29:31 if you have another three hours in your day. And I'm not asking you to do this because this is not commercial radio and I'm not here to make your work an extra. But if you can, if you had an extra three hours, and it wasn't going to exhaust you, where would you put the resources in those three hours? What would you add on what you wish you could have if you had another three hours? Heather Furr 29:51 Oh, I would create unique content on YouTube specifically just show unique content on YouTube. That is such an underutilized platform for every radio station. But there's still a lot of value to be found there. And people are like, well, I don't see very much activity and comments on YouTube anymore. People are using it as the resource to search. So that is why YouTube is a value. Yes, there's not a lot of conversation happening there anymore. But it's the resource, just search for things. You know, if you're looking for a bit, you might go search it on YouTube, especially if you're just looking for something specific. And it also when you're sharing something on social media, you're going a lot of people are going to YouTube to share it, because it's a trusted source. And Matt Cundill 30:41 that's the exact same thing podcasters are going through right now. Because they're like, oh, I don't do video. But you know, lo and behold, here we are. I mean, last one, I saw you I wasn't doing video. And now here we are doing video when we're putting it up on YouTube. But you've got a little bit more to think about more than I would. Because you've got the Bob and Jerry show, you've got multiple podcasts that you need to consider multiple properties. So when you're driving people to the product, you drive to the podcast, you drive into Bob and Sheri showed you drive to happy hour. How do you how do you use that, that marketing of YouTube and the power of YouTube? That Heather Furr 31:19 is such a goal specific question, we try to make blanket statements in this industry to where it's like, oh, this is always what we're doing here. But it's really specific. You know, if I'm trying to drive listeners to true weird stuff, I'm going to drive them to that podcast directly. If I'm trying to drive people to happy hour from YouTube, I'm going to drive them to the Facebook directly. And it's going to be dependent on what I'm trying to do. If I want to drive premium subscriptions, I'm going to use all these different tools to push them to that funnel of place that I want them to go. And it's so dependent on what you're trying to do. If you're trying to boost listeners, you always want to push to the audio directly do not make someone jump through hoops to get what they want. What's Matt Cundill 32:04 in it for the listener, right? Yeah, I mean, make it easy. Not that you would be cheering for such a thing, because there are people doing this. But hey, I hope there's no more Tiktok. So that's one less thing to worry about. Heather Furr 32:17 I love tick tock so I really hope no, because I want to do so many things with tick tock. There's so much the power of audio and discovery on tick tock is so amazing. So like, I don't want that. But also I do a lot in a day. So putting that to the side right now is okay, but letting x go, for example. It was one of those things where I had I had a conversation like, am I keeping it because of my Am I continuing to do it because of my own? Like the effort I've already put into it sunk cost, you know, or is it really valuable? And when I really looked, it wasn't really valuable. It wasn't driving new listeners at all. Matt Cundill 32:59 Are you finding any life on threads? There Heather Furr 33:01 is actually for us, and particularly with true weird stuff. So I think with niche podcasters threads can be very, very good right now, you know, things change. And that may not always be the case. But right now, it's very good for that. Matt Cundill 33:15 This is my big takeaway from our conversation. Because I You're making me think about evaluating each one of these social media platforms. It's not a numbers thing. It's not impressions. It's, it's really does this fit your community? Yeah. Heather Furr 33:28 And does it add something? Does it bring something new? Because I can tell you how Instagram brings a different group of our audience into the fold. And it's wildly different than Facebook, even though the same company different audiences. Matt Cundill 33:44 Heather, how do you look at the future for the next year for the Bob and Sheri show as it pertains to digital? I kind of said, well, if you had an extra three hours, you'd love to sort of pushing into YouTube. We've already talked about tick tock could stay could go. Is there anything else that you're looking at as maybe being a trend or somewhere else that you think that there's an opportunity for some community building? For anybody doing a podcast or a radio show? Heather Furr 34:09 I think that there are a good amount of, you know, just for radio in general, there are good of good amount of women targeted demos that could really get value out of being on Pinterest, and putting time and effort into Pinterest. There's also a good amount of value from being in places like Reddit and creating boards on Reddit. And you see this with podcasters all the time. They have their Reddit communities. And there's conversations in Reddit happening. So I think there is value there. And that's one thing. In the next year I see myself doing more of is creating more of that community feeling in places like Reddit and Pinterest. Matt Cundill 34:50 Are there. Thanks so much for doing this. This has been a long time coming and thanks for waiting up the two years when I said we'll get to it next year. We'll get to it next week. I promise. Thanks for doing this library. Get it. Yeah. The Tara Sands (Voiceover) 35:01 sound off podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski edited by Taylor McLean social media by Aidan glassy, another great creation from the sound off media company, there's always more ad sound off podcast.com

Craig Bruce’s radio days started in 1986 hosting shows in Australia. He now consults for radio stations and launched a podcast called Game Changers Radio in 2016, featuring interviews with radio personalities from around the world. While the show podfaded in 2020, it is the new series called Melbourne Radio Wars, which documents Kyle and Jackie O’s entry into the Melbourne radio market. In this episode, you will hear about the differences between Australian and North American radio. The key to Kyle and Jackie O's success is their chemistry from 20 years working together, Kyle's humor, Jackie's ideas, and excellent resourcing/marketing by the station, and how Craig works with younger producers to bring fresh ideas. Follow Melbourne Radio Wars It’s the question that every radio pundit wants to know the answer to - can the world’s best radio show be number 1 in Australia’s biggest radio market? The Melbourne Radio Wars hosted by Craig Bruce and Irene Hulme is a podcast dedicated to the most exciting battle in radio history. Kyle and Jackie have conquered the Sydney airwaves for close to 20 years, now they’re taking on their biggest challenge yet.

We last had Arielle Nissenblatt on episode 307 a few years ago and loved the enthusiasm and energy she brings to the space. So much has changed in two years including many things that pertain to marketing like social media and video usage - so you have an idea where this conversation is headed. This is some all encompassing involvement: Her Ear Buds Collective Newsletter, The Trailer Park Podcast which discusses the good and bad of Podcast Trailers, The Podcast Community Discord Channel, She is the Community Marketing Manager at Descript, and she is also on the Board of Governors of the Podcast Academy. In this episode, you will hear Arielle tell me how she reacted when she found out that Descript would be purchasing Squadcast, why she is not excited about Threads, what makes a great podcast trailer and why she started a podcast about it, and why the Podcast Academy is important for all podcast creators. In early June 2024, Descript launched Season 6 of their product entitled "Underlord". Check out all the new features including some AI Driven initiatives that you will love. Everyone is excited about video. Just ask them. However, podcast pros like Arielle remain skeptical about absolute statements that say one MUST include video to be successful. We remain unsure but to be on the safe side, we made a video and posted it in places like Facebook, Twitch, X, and YouTube. A few weeks ago we told you how Dave Jackson was starting a podcast dedicated to podcast websites. Arielle has one with Tim Villegas that talks about podcast trailers. Podcast Trailers are podcast's highlight reel, featuring your most exciting content, sound bites, and quotes. Show trailers appear prominently in both Apple and Spotify. In Short - you should have a trailer for your show. Once you create it - submit to Arielle and Tim for review. TRANSCRIPTION Tara Sands (Voiceover)  00:02 The sound off podcast. The show about podcast and broadcast - starts now. Matt Cundill  00:12 Arielle Nissenblatt was on the show about two years ago, Episode 307. If you're scoring on the sound off home game, she was the community manager at squad cast, which is what we use to record all our episodes. She's back again to answer the burning questions of audio such as Do you need video? Why are newsletters still a great way to market your show? And why is there so much BS about how everyone should be doing their podcast? She even took to the internet to voice her frustration with all the brown colored noise. Arielle Nissenblatt  00:42 I think I learned pretty early on that most people are bullshitting all the time, and that that should be called out. Also I'm bullshitting and that you're bullshitting and like everybody's bullshitting a little bit. Like I go to conferences all the time. And most people are surface leveling their talks, most people are like, here's the five top five things to do this, like, I'm sorry, but the things that you're saying are the top five are like kind of bullshit. They're not actually helpful for anybody. So I just try to when I'm speaking, whether it's in an interview like this, or on stage, or anytime I just tried to give clear takeaways. I think that that has just made me very tell it like it is. Matt Cundill  01:21 You see, that's why she's here and what you can expect today. We're also going to discuss social media platforms, and which ones work for her. Results may vary, of course. And now Ariel in the sublet joins me from New York City. Question number one has to be what did she think the moment she found out this script would be purchasing squad cast? Arielle Nissenblatt  01:43 I was pumped. This was May of last year. I think that Zach Moreno and Rocky Felder, the founders of Squadcast told me that it was in the works. And I had to be quiet about it. And I immediately was like, Oh, God, I really hate keeping secrets, but I'll do it. And then I called my mom, because that's immunity is either mother or spouse and I don't have spouse. So I did Mother. So I got to tell her, which was nice, because her company also recently had gotten acquired. So we had some, she had some advice to give, I was pumped immediately, I was just thinking about how great it would be for creators to combine these two products. So quick answer, I mean, excitement. That was my first feeling. Matt Cundill  02:27 Were you previously a user of descript, before the purchase, Arielle Nissenblatt  02:31 Not really, I had created an account. And I had tried it a little bit. But I was not using it in my regular workflow. And it's interesting now to look back on that because I hear people who have the same hesitancy that I used to have now I now I use it at least three times a week for a bunch of different podcasts that I work on. And for fun, I just kind of go in there and test things out all the time. And I chat with people who are like, Yeah, I've tried it, but I really can't get into it. Because you do need to give it a little bit of time just like you do with every piece of software in order to you know, work the muscle and make sure that it's within your your realm of technological capability. And I remember when I was there, and I used to be such a slower editor such a slower Podcast Producer when I used other services and now I do use the script but no, I did not use it initially. I use squad cast always I use squad cast before I worked at squad cast. I barely use the script before I worked at the script. Matt Cundill  03:31 Were you part of the acquisition? Because I would think that the probably like do we get Ariel to to come on over here and be community manager of this because you're doing such a good job with squad cast? It just seems like sort of a natural transition? Arielle Nissenblatt  03:42 Yes, most of us came over from Squadcast to Descript. So we did need to interview but mostly to figure out what positions we would occupy in the new company. Where would we best fit in? Maybe did we want to make a change? Right? So I'm, I'm in the community space. But I also at squad cast was doing a lot of marketing a lot of social media did I want to carry that over into descript? So I had some conversations with HR described but also with the people that manage the departments that I'm now part of. So yeah, I definitely feel like in addition to the software being acquired, they also acquired the talent that came along with it. Matt Cundill  04:22 Has your view of video usage and podcasting changed since you've you've come on with the script, obviously, yeah, it's a lot easier to do. And there's some great ways to edit it. But did your view about usage of video and podcasting change once you got into descript? Arielle Nissenblatt  04:37 Yes, but not because of Descript more so because of the the landscape that we are now in and that is, I think if you were to go online and listen to me speaking on podcast two years ago, you'd hear me say, you do not have to do video if you are an audio podcast. And I still believe that to a certain extent you if you want to just do audio. There are people that want to consume your podcast you Just in audio, even if there are not, you will find them. You know, like if you do not want to create video, you do not have to create video. I know a lot of people love video audio because you don't have to get ready for the camera, you can just show up and shut your camera off and feel good. And you don't have to worry so much about what you look like and the implications that that has. However, I have changed my tune in the sense that now it is much easier to make video for podcasts to extract the video from your Squadcast session, edit that while you're editing your audio and make a whole episode that you can upload to YouTube or you can also go and create some clips on social and post them. I think it's easier for the average creator nowadays to do that with tools like descript or Camtasia. Or there's some other ones out there like What's That One? Capcut is a big one cap wing is another one. There's a few that Opus dot Pro allows you to clip some things and make some video quickly. It's not necessarily going to lead to immense success for every single person that does venture out into the video world. But my tune has changed in that I used to be vehemently don't do video if you don't want to do video and now I'm like, you know if you are looking to grow, and you are willing to test out video as a potential growth mechanism, it might be worth it for you to do a three month trial posting video clips. Not saying it will necessarily be successful, but it might be worth a try. Matt Cundill  06:25 So why am I doing video right now? How's this gonna help my podcast? Because there's a lot of people who say, Well, I gotta do a video. Yeah, Arielle Nissenblatt  06:31 no, I hate that. I hate that you got to do video, nobody's got to do video, you should do video if you want to, if your listeners are asking for it. Or if you want to test out some creative juices that you know maybe you want to play with video, maybe with the with your recent. You, Matt, you did not use descript before and then you did when squad cast aquat ones class was acquired, right? Yeah. Were you ever editing video beforehand? No. So me either. The only reason I started to be able to edit video is because of the scripts. Because when we started at the script, one on our onboarding, one of the tasks that we had to complete was to make a video introducing ourselves to the team to the entire company and posted on the Slack channel. And then you get a bunch of emoji reactions. And people are like, Oh, I love to hear this about you. It's so nice to know that you also play soccer, that kind of thing. So you introduce yourself. And I had had no experience editing video before I had to jump into the deep end and record and edit video. You know, in the past, I just recorded and edited audio. But now all of a sudden, I can do that. And I take on other projects like now when my family has like a big birthday that they're celebrating somebody's celebrating like their 80th birthday, I can make a video montage pretty easily. And I can make the cuts. And I that is not something that I could do before. So it's really cool. And I think the reason that you are doing video now is to experiment. I think you are still a podcast about the product, the broadcast industry, you are still a podcast about podcasting. And because of that your listeners are mostly going to be people who have been listening to podcasts who let's listen to like the strict sense of the word podcast for a long time. But you might be able to discover some potential new listeners or consumers. If you post on social and somebody posts, somebody searches for the exact right keywords and you pop up and then maybe you have a clip that goes viral every once in a while. So Matt Cundill  08:21 I was like you the script wasn't for me. The script was for a lot of people. And it solved a lot of problems, especially you know, because you see sound waves and it's strange. But now you can see words and you can erase them. And then came video and I said well, I gotta do some video. But then I say, Well, I'm not I'm not great at doing this stuff I'm learning. But I'm not great at doing this. One of the things I have found is that there are people on my team who love using the script. And so tell me about some of the other experiences about description. Maybe they're a little trepidatious about coming on board and using it. But now they're all in some of the new things that have come along this, this just makes my life easier. Arielle Nissenblatt  08:59 Well, for me, I kind of call it my descript unlock moment where I was doing one thing one way for a really long time, and I thought that that was the easiest it could possibly be. And then somebody showed me what that could look like kind of sped up through the script. And then I was like, okay, yep, I'm gonna have two hours back to my day. So for example, I was record I have a podcast about podcasts recommendations, and I used to record it into Audacity and then go through my recording and cut out my hums and ahhs and cut out my retakes and cut out a joke that I made that I didn't like. And it would take me forever, because I could only listen back to it in the speed with which I gave it with the script. I can listen back on 1.5 1.75 to speed I can go through my recording very fast and make changes. And then of course, I'm going to want to come back and listen to it at regular speed so that I can make sure that it sounds good that all my transitions are clear things like that. But being able to listen back quickly has saved me so much time so there's that there's all So the ability to shorten word gaps, that's been huge for me, because I tend to, when I record my solo podcast, I do a lot of, you know, taking a break, and I just set a line, but I want to do that line again. But I might want to get the cadence a little bit different. So I take a second to think about it. So I might leave two to three seconds of open air. And then I want to get rid of all those two to three seconds in one fell swoop, because I don't necessarily need to go through them and delete them one by one. But what the script allows me to do is to shorten my what they call word gaps, so when there is just dead air, so you can just do that by having the script, identify where that takes place in the script in the script, and then press a button and they're gone. Same with your filler words like um, and ah, and you know, and sometimes if you repeat the word, it might be considered a filler word. So those are, that's also something that you can play around with, you can either remove your filler words, or you can strike through them so that they're still there. But the playback will skip over it so that you could decide later if you want to get rid of them. And I am not a big fan of getting rid of all of your filler words, because there's some element of filler words, that sounds unnatural. But having the option is a nice thing to do. Especially if you are looking to make a very quick, fast paced video or audio piece, Matt Cundill  11:18 talking about some of the communities that you have here, because I know the script has a discord channel, squad cast has got the Slack channel, I've been a part of both. And then last week, I found myself going to ask a question in descript. On Facebook, Oh, interesting. I just found myself there. And I just said, Oh, look, I do have a question to ask about this. And a lot of it actually came down to leveling both sides of the video. Again, because I'm trying to do a little bit of video. Am I missing any community groups that are out there? Arielle Nissenblatt  11:47 Well, technically, we don't run the Facebook one. It used to be run by us and then ended up being too many things to take care of. So we actually gave it back to the people. And now it's run by users. So that's great. We do check in on it every once in a while. Try to answer some questions. You know, every once in a while people ask questions that are not necessarily going to be able to be answered by the community. And it is good for us to be able to say, hey, this actually looks like a job for the support team, please submit a ticket. Sometimes we can render aid right then in there, we can actually give support right on Facebook. But for the most part, our accepted channels are help.descript.com, which is just a forum where you can go for help. support@descript.com is our email address. And then we've got that discord that you were referring to, which has 18,000 plus people in it, we do a lot on there, I'll come back to in a second. And then you also refer to our Slack channel for squad cast, which will eventually be shutting down if you have noticed, I've been posting less and less on there because we're really trying to move people over to our descript owned channels. But back to discord we are, you know we've got a lot going on there. So we've got our introduction channel where you're supposed to post when you're new, we've got our made into script channel, which if you if you just created a new episode of something that you're proud of you are absolutely welcome to post it there and either ask for feedback or ask for people to like and comment on it or even just to be like, Look, I'm proud of this. And then we also have our community forum. So that's where people can go to ask and answer questions. And that's really where our support team is hanging out. And it's supposed to be a place where the community helps out each other because while we have a dedicated support team, we are not on the computer 24/7. And we try to rely on the community as well. There's so much shared knowledge within the community. So we love that about our our Discord channel. And then we also have office hours right on our Discord channel. So on Wednesdays we have Marcelo who is on our support team. He does an hour long office hours where he just answers any and all questions that people have about the script. And then on Thursdays, I do an office half hour with sometimes Marcelo sometimes Zack Moreno from squad cast, about remote recordings specifically. So sort of to transition over the squad cast users and make sure they have a soft place to land. We are there answering questions. And of course, things get broader than just remote recording or the scripts. But you know, we talked about production, we talked about marketing, we talk about just being a content creator on the internet. So we do all of that right within discord. So that is really the place that I like to push people to because it's also where we list our events. You can say that you're interested in an event we do events live on YouTube, like at least once a week, and we keep track of all of the community related endeavors that are going on through our Discord channel. Matt Cundill  14:32 There's a lot of communities that you're a part of. I mean, the podcast community is one big community. You've listed a few Have you ever gone and counted all the communities that you're involved with? Arielle Nissenblatt  14:42 No, because I also think the word community means different things at different times to different people, you know, like, I'm part of a listserv called Public Radio NYC, which is awesome. It's a great listserv. It's sort of a community. Sometimes there are events that might come about by way of this group, but we're not necessary. parallely like, Let's get together as the public radio NYC community. But I would also say that if I met somebody in the wild, and I found out that they are also part of this, I'd be like, oh, you know, we're in a community together, essentially. Matt Cundill  15:10 Talk a little bit about The Podcast Academy, I think it was a couple of weeks ago, you gave a lot of people an intro into video. This was not really affiliated with the script. But you did mention the script, it was really about like, all the ways you could use video. And I think one of the things you do that made it interesting was you kept people engaged. as we're going along, who's using video who is not using video? What are your experiences? And from that, I can take away that everybody seems to have a very, very varied experience about video. And its usage so far, from what you can see what things are absolutely true, involving the usage of video to this point, let's say in the last year, where a lot of people have picked it up, Arielle Nissenblatt  15:50 that there's no silver bullet, I know that sucks as an answer. But I will be a guest on a podcast. So say like this, and then afterwards, I'll maybe you'll you'll give me access to the video and I'll throw it into the script. And I'll create some clips for myself using the Find good clips feature. I'll upload a bunch of those, and then one of them might get 1.4 1000 views and then another might get 26. And that is I just think the only thing that is for sure true about video for podcast right now is that nobody understands the algorithm. And we just need to keep experimenting. There are some people that are putting out videos often enough that they are able to glean some truths. Like for example, there's a guy named Gary Arndt, who has a podcast called everything everywhere daily. And he is actually part of another community I'm a part of called the podcasting community on Discord, which I can talk about in a moment. And he is very transparent about how Tik Tok doesn't really do much for him. Even though he gets X number, he gets a pretty, he gets pretty big view numbers on tick tock, but they don't necessarily convert to his podcast. So there are some people that have figured that out who have figured out how to go viral, but not necessarily how to move that virality from short form to long form. Matt Cundill  17:05 So you're not the first person to have told a story like that. I've heard a couple like that so far, there still seems to be a lot of people who have a lot of truths. And you must and this, which sort of dovetails to you and I live favorite clip from a couple of weeks ago, which is the level of bullshitting that goes on whether it's at a conference or it's online, or people say you must end the top five reasons that how do we get away from this, Arielle Nissenblatt  17:35 it's so easy to fall into listening to Guru types. Because we all want a silver bullet, we all want to be able to say if I do this, this, this and this, I will be successful. You can't do this, this and this to be successful. It just every person has so many different variables. Everything that you put out into the world has so many different variables, every platform that you put it on has so many different variables, you just need to be willing to continue experimenting, and hoping that your stuff reaches the right people so that those right people must tell their friends and then you get word of mouth. I think like my main goal in life is to become word of mouth viral with any of my content. Because once you hit that once, once you are so recommendable people can't escape you they need to, they need to listen to what you make, they need to see what you make, they just need to be a part of it in some way. And I just don't think that there is one formula for any person to get there. I think that there are generalizations that we can make about certain types of content. For example, if you have a podcast about business, LinkedIn is a good place to go. If you have a comedy podcast, Instagram is a good place to go. But the only reason that is true is because it has been true doesn't necessarily mean that it will be true. Matt Cundill  18:44 So one of the things that is my big takeaway about Eric on this and blood is involvement is key. I mean, keep your loneliness level low, if you can, you know, be a part of communities. We don't have all the answers hanging around the people who may be able to provide you some guidance and some answers along the way. And to that the podcast community discord, I just found out about this an hour ago, because well, I just I went into my Discord to go and check on the descript one. And there's an invite you invited me to the podcast community discord. So thank you for doing that, of course. So what am I going to find in there now that I've accepted? Arielle Nissenblatt  19:21 Well, I started that in 22, in October of 22. Because I don't know, the timeline on when Elon Musk took over Twitter so murky to me because there was the maybe he's going to do it. And then there was the he's definitely going to do it. And then there was the delete all your stuff now get off Twitter. And then there were the people that were like, maybe we can stay but also like start divesting from it. You know, that kind of thing, put our eggs in another basket. And so in October of 22 I think I really felt a need to create another place for podcast people to hang out and really to try to replicate the I think it's like a serendipity feeling about that used to be so great about Twitter that you could do we'd added at anyone and they could see it and they could repost it, even if they were like Ira Glass or somebody super famous in podcasting or beyond, like everybody's had a cool interaction on Twitter if you experiment with posting. And I wanted to recreate that and I knew that I was never really gonna be able to recreate that on another platform because Twitter of your was one thing that can't be recaptured. But I just wanted a place where podcast community folks could go. So I put out a call on Twitter and on a few other social platforms that I was starting this discord, and it blew up pretty quickly. It like within five days had hundreds and hundreds of members now we're, I don't push it very often. But when I do we get a lot of people joining. I think we're at like 1500 members now. So it's a really great place and it stays pretty active. We've got a lot of different channels on there, one for people to recommend podcasts that they're listening to that are not there's one for self promo, one for industry events, one for resources, one for job givers, one for job seekers, a lot of different things audio magic, we've got so many different subsections sub channels within so that people can sort of choose their own adventure grade threads, Matt Cundill  21:08 one out of 10 A to F effectiveness. Arielle Nissenblatt  21:12 I think it sort of sucks mostly in the podcasts land, because I mean, here's the thing, it's very highly engaged in that if you go and you post about podcast stuff, you'll probably get a lot of people commenting or liking or, or being involved engaged in some way. But it's also a lot of that energy of like, follow for follow, leave a comment and I will follow back everybody who has the word podcasts in their profile. And that's not to say that I didn't do that, too. I did that a few months ago when threads was newer, because I have also done that on LinkedIn. I've said like I want to be connected to everybody in the world that does podcasting for business or that that has a podcast. I really do. I'm genuinely curious about that. But there are clearly people on threads who are doing it for engagement, baiting for engagement farming. And I think you can tell when people are doing it because they just want a whole bunch of new followers. So I think there's a lot of that there's also a lot of really bad BSC advice on there for podcast marketing, a lot of people speaking in absolutes, a lot of people speaking without doing research, but just doing going off of their own personal experience, as opposed to the experience of like having tested out multiple software's that do certain things. So I think that it can be honed. But I think for some reason algorithm there is really strange like I have a friend who wants to be known in the podcast space, she posted one thing about parenting and now she's going viral for parenting all the time. And she's like, I don't want to do parenting. Tara Sands (Voiceover)  22:36 transcription of the sound off podcast is powered by the you may also like podcast, the show about people places and things. Follow the show on your favorite podcast app, or at You may also like dotnet Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  22:52 this podcast supports podcasting 2.0. So feel free to send us a boost. If you're listening on a new podcast app, find your new app now at podcasting, two point org slash apps. That's podcasting. Two point org slash apps. Matt Cundill  23:07 Are you still a part of Twitter? Because I know at one point, or maybe you still are moderator of podcasting, Twitter. But I know as you mentioned, a lot of people bailed. Yeah, Arielle Nissenblatt  23:16 I'm still on Twitter, I have not been posting as much. But that's not necessarily because of Elon Musk, it's more so just because I'm tired. And I also like have enough going on. When I am on Twitter and I'm posting on Twitter, I give myself work. So for example, I'll be like, post your favorite podcast cover art, and I will give it a rating from one to 10. So then I have to go through all the responses and rate the podcast cover arts, or like post your the the one line or description of your podcast. And I'll tell you, if it is something that is compelling. Based on that, you know, 10 words alone, then I give myself homework. So I stopped doing that. I still do post every once in a while, you know, if I if I have if somebody posts something really BSc in terms of advice for podcasters or advice for content creators online, I'll go in and I'll quote, tweet it and make fun of it in a nice way. So I will still do that every once in a while. But I haven't been necessarily doing a lot of community building on Twitter lately. I do still moderate the community, the podcasting Twitter community. I used to do it with Alvin Brook from Buzzsprout. And we just haven't coordinated on it in a while. So we haven't really done anything new with it. But there is still that community. So if folks aren't familiar, you can still tweet within certain communities so that those tweets are available just to that community and you can join different communities on different topics. Matt Cundill  24:36 So one of my favorite things that you've got going is trailer park. I love trailers and trailers are so important. It's one of the things I see missing from a lot of podcasts. So why is it important for somebody to have a trailer for their podcast? Arielle Nissenblatt  24:48 You got to have a trailer for your podcasts, you just gotta. It's important for a number of reasons. One is because it allows you to populate your RSS feed maybe before you're ready to buy populate your RSS feed with actual content. With actual episodes, it allows you to launch before you launch. So you can start sending people to your podcast, which is now available on Apple and Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts. Before, you know, maybe you still need to do a few more weeks of research for your first episode, or a few more weeks of honing your post production for that first episode. So it allows you to have a place to go. And that contributes to the next reason it's important to have a trailer which is it allows you to market before you're ready to market. You know, it allows you to potentially start reaching out to a bunch of other shows that are similar to yours or that you find that you have some synchronicity with and to say, I have this trailer, would you consider dropping it at the end of your next episode, maybe you can say something like, there's a new show that I think you're going to love. We're going to play the trailer after this episode. So it allows you to do that. And, you know, maybe you do something for those collaborative partners. In exchange, you're building these relationships with them. It also allows you to make sure you know what your podcast is about. It allows you to it forces you to hone the information that takes place over your however many episodes season and say what is this podcast really about? It forces you to say who am I? What's this podcast about? Why am I making it and who is it made for? So those are just three reasons. Matt Cundill  26:18 So I will sort of just present the difference between a show promo which can go about you know, 30 seconds to 45 seconds or 60 seconds, a trailer can still be that length. But trailers are often maybe just a touch longer. I'll give you one fun use I did for a trailer, I had a guest on this podcast. And one of the reasons he was on was because he has a brand new podcast. And about a week before I put a feed dropped the trailer and and said this person is going to be a guest in advance. By the way, you should probably hook up and get to know this podcast, we're going to be talking with him in another week. So there's your right, there's all sorts of things you can do with it. I think that idea that you have about putting the trailer at the end of an episode on somebody else's show is just it's gold. Yeah. Arielle Nissenblatt  27:05 Another reason to have a trailer is because the podcast hosting providers at this point, most if not all of them allow you to mark your episodes as either bonus episodes, regular episodes or trailers. And you should use that space, you should use that real estate also, because podcasts listening apps usually also delineate that so if you go to Apple, you can see when something is marked as a trailer. And it's supposed to be something that you are pushing your listeners to so that if they just come across your cover art, they're attracted to your cover art, they're attracted to your title, the next thing their eyes are gonna go to is your trailer. So you're gonna have a lot of plays on your trailer, like for all of my podcasts, the most plays are on the trailer. And that is because that is the first thing they're exposed to. It's going to reach the widest audience, then of course, it's going to funnel from there. So podcasts about podcast trailers is not for everybody. But a lot of people were maybe interested in finding out if it was for them. So they hit play on the trailer and then decide, Matt Cundill  27:57 well, I think it's a great place to find ideas for a trailer. You can also redo your trailer once a year. Arielle Nissenblatt  28:03 Anytime. Yeah, anytime you have a new season anytime you maybe have a series like you could really go all out. Matt Cundill  28:09 And I loved your co host Tim, I am firmly camping beside him on the trailer being short and effective. Although I think one of your recent episodes it did go along and it was very good. It did not bore by by any stretch of the imagination. And I'm all for a short trailer except for I think mine is over three minutes. So Arielle Nissenblatt  28:29 I'm like, You're not even taking your own advice, bro. Matt Cundill  28:33 Oh, come on. I think I'm so important. Arielle Nissenblatt  28:36 As it must be long, we must hear absolutely everything that you have to say. Yeah, Matt Cundill  28:39 I might be. I might be in the market to redo my my trailer. Well, Arielle Nissenblatt  28:44 you should do it as like a learn along with me as I redo my trailer. Matt Cundill  28:48 How's your podcast idea coming along? In the one where you know, parents tried to explain what their adult children do for a living? And when can I be on an episode? context, Arielle Nissenblatt  28:57 I think it was July 9 2021. I tweeted that there should be a podcast where parents try to explain what their adult children do for a living. I was at my parents house at the time, and just visiting for a few days. And I think my dad asked me earlier that morning, how's the podcast world? And I was like, You have no clue what I do. You have no clue what I do. And he doesn't know how to access a podcast. He still has questions about the difference between podcasts and radio, he still just doesn't quite understand. And it just made me realize that a lot of parents probably can't explain what their adult children do for a living. And I will say because I have gotten the ageism accusation here. I also can't explain what my mom does. I can't explain what what the next generation does. So it's it really goes both ways. It's really this fundamental disconnect. And I will also say, I don't think we know a lot of what our friends do. You know, so sometimes it is people who are completely on your, in your age in your generation. We don't always know but it's kind of like this interesting thing that it's wholesome to figure out like how your parents are when they're at dinner parties explaining what their beloved children are doing for a living. So I tweeted this thinking it would maybe, you know, do some numbers in the podcast world, but it did numbers beyond the podcast world. Hundreds of 1000s of impressions, lots and lots of comments, a lot of people reaching out to me and saying, You got to make this podcast. So this was, of course, almost three years ago. And I have made some attempts at making the podcast, I recorded a bunch of interviews in 2021 2022. Put together a trailer put together a deck pitched it to iHeartRadio they ultimately passed. So I took a little bit of a break from it, but I do intend to eventually make it because the meme accounts on Instagram and on Twitter and even on other social platforms. Start reposting this every once in a while and every time they do I get new followers, I get new people telling me I must make this show. And it's the tweet that will never die. Matt Cundill  30:47 You and Lauren Purcell at Podcast Movement last year you were up on stage you've got your doctor's coats on you are the podcast medics as it were to repair podcasts and solve the problems and maybe issue a prescription or two. So what do you find needs to be prescribed the most podcasters these days, what mistakes are you seeing them make the most of the Arielle Nissenblatt  31:10 mistakes that podcasters make now are not super different from the mistakes that they were making. Five years ago, two years ago, it's going in without a marketing plan. going in without outlining a season going in thinking your show is going to be always on and not necessarily planning for it to take a break at times, not having a plan for if you take a break. So maybe you're going to set up some feed swaps or feed drops. And also not listening to podcasts not listening to other podcasts before you start your own. Matt Cundill  31:42 So you've given a couple of pieces of advice in the last year, I don't know where and when they just popped up. But I can sort of hear Ariel saying that I need to make this change in my life. And one of them is involving newsletters. So for years I had one, then I stopped. Now I've got one it is back. And I'm sticking with it. And I'm doing it every week. So for anybody who doesn't have one, why did these things work? Arielle Nissenblatt  32:08 Newsletters work, caveat asterisk. I think you should have a newsletter you should at least be as a podcaster collecting email addresses because you don't own access to a list of the people that subscribe to your podcast. Yes, there are people that might leave you a rating and review on Apple star rating on Spotify. Maybe on other platforms, they're, you know, raising their hand and saying I listened to this podcast, maybe they're going to your fan list website and leaving you a voice note or go on your Patreon and contributing to the projects that you make. But there's no master list somewhere of all the people that regularly tune into your RSS feed. And because of that you sort of need to seek that out on your own, so that when people sign up for a newsletter, when they opt in to receive correspondence from you, you now have permission to send them emails. And hopefully those emails are going to be good emails, and they're not going to be spammy. And they're going to be they're going to be additive to the podcast listening experience. But the reason that newsletters can work, and I think that's maybe how the asterisk how we can navigate that asterisk is because it gives you yet another touch point with your listeners. And hopefully some of those listeners are loyal listeners who want to hear from you. And the reason they've subscribed is because they understand the value proposition. And Matt Cundill  33:29 I think that's a great point. Because I know I said why do these things work. And so this assumption that all newsletters are going to work, and why my newsletter didn't really work the first time around was because I don't think I was as authentic as I could have been. And so the commitment every week is to sit down and write something that I'm feeling that I believe in that I want to share. And if it's podcast advice, I'm now just going to sort of preface it with this may or may not be true. Just given all the BS that goes on. Arielle Nissenblatt  33:56 The funny thing about podcasts advice, advice about any creative thing in general is the answer should always be it depends. Unless I am sitting down with you. And I have listened to a bunch of your episodes and I've looked at your website and I've looked at your social and I can actually answer individual questions about your show not shows in general. lots Matt Cundill  34:17 to choose from, there's MailChimp, there's constant contact and you suggested to me beehive. Yeah, like beehive. Yeah, thank you for that. Why does it work? Why do you like it? Arielle Nissenblatt  34:26 I use MailChimp for years and years and years and it just kept getting more expensive. It was the thing that I learned email marketing on because of cereal because they advertised with cereal, which is great. I'm really grateful to MailChimp for like being an inside joke for podcast listeners everywhere MailChimp. That's really fun for us as podcast listeners. And yeah, I spent a lot of money with MailChimp over the years and grateful to them but also want something that's going to be a little bit more sustainable. So beehive is one set price as of now and they have all these really cool creator coordinate I should networks within. So I can recommend other newsletters and those newsletters can recommend me, which is really fun. I can also get paid to recommend and potentially refer other newsletters refer people to those newsletters. So that's great. And I've really been enjoying that. So and I also will say, it's a lot easier to set up than MailChimp is it's less mysterious, much easier to build templates. And also, they're really fun on social media. And I think honestly, that's how I became aware of them in the first place was social media, word of mouth, a friend recommended it. And I actually got to get on a call with somebody from beehive two years ago or so who was like, here's why this would work for your newsletter. So nice customer service, too. And Matt Cundill  35:43 tell me about your buds collective. This one arrives, sometime Sunday night, Monday in that zone. I love opening it up. It's it's podcast recommendations, generally. And you'll have to, um, this is a test. By the way, I just want to repeat this so that I tell the story properly to other people. And that somebody will curate a list of podcasts one of those episodes could be a podcast that they have done themselves, but five others from that particular genre to a list that sort of form a you know, a collective and a comprehensive listening piece. Arielle Nissenblatt  36:13 So that sounds right for others for others. So five total. Yeah. So Matt Cundill  36:17 why do podcasts recommendation newsletters work? Arielle Nissenblatt  36:20 They work for me. I subscribe to so many newsletters. I subscribe to so many podcasts newsletters, so many podcasts, recommendation newsletters, industry, newsletters, everything. I just love being up to date on all of that. I started the newsletter because I in 2017 was realizing that there were so many podcasts and I wanted there to be some sort of way to cut through what might be worth my time what might not be worth my time. So I started this newsletter hoping that other people could curate lists for me so that I would always know what to listen to. So that's why I started it. Other newsletters have other types of other podcasts newsletters have other types of missions. So for example, podcast delivery comes out every Monday and it's one new podcast of the last seven to 14 days. Find that pod comes out on Fridays, and it's also five podcast episodes not on the theme but sort of just curated by the founder of find that pod. Podcast review is interesting because it's podcast, it's reviews, a podcast plus a few listicles here and there. Podcast, the newsletter is Lauren Patel's newsletter, where it's just everything that she loves. She calls it a love letter to podcasting, pretty much everything she listened to in the past week, she writes about it, and it's great. So I think podcasts newsletters work, because people have varied interests. And we need to find a way to highlight the podcasts that are out there that are not necessarily going to find audiences on their own. That's why we've got curators who listen to all these podcasts, and then hopefully evangelize those podcasts to the right audience, to what might be the right audience. Matt Cundill  37:48 congratulations on your election to the Board of Governors of the podcast Academy. I've been a member since its inception. I think it's great. It's affordable, too, I believe. I actually have accidentally renewed for two years, which you're not even supposed to be able to do. But I accidentally hit Refresh when you're not supposed to hit refresh after you're giving your credit card. So I'm sitting here on an extended membership. But for those who just you know want to come up for one year, tell us why we should all be a part of the podcast Academy. Arielle Nissenblatt  38:15 The podcast Academy is still definitely in its infancy. So I think now is the time to really get behind it and offer your time offer your services offer your mentorship so that we can grow the academy so that it can be where I think other creative academies are. And the podcast Academy is the engine behind the ambitious, which is the awards for excellence in audio. There's mentorship programs as part of the podcast Academy. There are real life and virtual events that you can take part in that are member only and open to the public. And there's just some really cool discounts that you can get by being a member of the podcasts Academy. So I think people need to join because it further professionalize the industry. And the more people that join, the more we professionalize the industry and give ourselves and each other more opportunities to grow and to meet new listeners and to meet new collaborators. And Matt Cundill  39:09 I pointed this out earlier because I saw you last at an event which was sponsored by the podcast Academy about video and you know, when these things come up, it is very, very helpful to grab some information. So thank you, and thanks for being a part of the show today. I really appreciate it. It's so good to talk to you again. Aereo. 39:27 A blast and a half. Thank you for having me. Tara Sands (Voiceover)  39:30 The sound off podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill produced by Evan Surminski, edited by Chloe Emo-Lane social media by Aidan Glassey another great creation from the sound off media company there's always more at sound off podcast.com

Last time Sue Haas was on the show, she had just moved over from Blue Ant Media to start as the President and COO of NLogic. Well, almost a year has gone by since then, and Sue's back to let us know how it's going. If you're listening in Canada, you're probably aware that NLogic has been a steady supporter of this show for a long time now. We use their services all the time to source ratings data, but as Sue explains, you're dead wrong if you think that's all they have to offer. Sue also speaks about what the transition was like, and how she's had to adapt since joining NLogic. After all, it's not every day someone joins a company starting at the very top, and the first year of decision-making is crucial. Thankfully, Sue's been more than capable of keeping up. We talk shop on the technical side, and she shares the thought process behind the direction she wants the company to head in. As it turns out, there's a whole lot to look forward to in the world of media metrics, data and data strategy. The future sounds pretty darn promising. If you think NLogic could benefit your business or podcast, I encourage you to head to their website to learn more about what they can do for you. And if you want to stay up-to-date on the newest happenings in the media metrics landscape, sign up for NLogic's newsletter for information on upcoming webinars. Transcription: Tara Sands (Voiceover)  00:02 The Sound Off Podcast, the show about podcast and broadcast starts now. Matt Cundill  00:13 Sue Haas is the president and COO of Nlogic. And if you download this show in Canada, you know that they are a supporter of this podcast, we love Nlogic for their ratings data. But as you're about to hear, there's so much more to it. Last time, Sue and I talked about how she just come over from Blue Ant Media, and now she's completed her first year Nlogic, this is gonna give me a chance to find out how things went, and what we can look forward to in the world of media metrics, data and data strategy. Sue Haas joins me from Toronto. Sue, how are you? Sue Haas  00:46 Hi, Matt. I'm good. Thanks. Matt Cundill  00:48 How was your first year at Nlogic? Sue Haas  00:50 It was a whirlwind. And it's hard to believe that it's been a year, I feel like I've barely scratched the surface. But my feeling is optimism, I feel energized, I feel really positive. So I would say good A plus. Matt Cundill  01:08 As a leader, you're coming into the very top position in a company. So this is more of for anybody who does take over in a position like you're in? How do you approach the first year, a lot of people will come in and they'll make wholesale changes from day one, and others like to watch and observe, what do you do? 01:26 I was more on the observational side. If we take those two economies, and I'm starting now it's been a year, it's also budget season in the spring, we're on a broadcast fiscal, so there will be more changes into my second year. Looking back now, I was less intimidated than maybe I thought I would be in the role. You just have to jump in and go for it and embrace the chaos and embrace the unknown. And something that Neil, the CEO of Numeris, I talked about a bit as we work on a lot of sort of fundamental changes to the business is being comfortable with only knowing you know, 50% of what you're talking about. And that makes me comfortable him saying that and him an I discussing that. And I also think important for a lot of leaders, you can't make fundamental change and meaningful change if you're just working within the parameters of what you really know, well, because that's not change. So I would say once I had that philosophy, where I'm not going to know everything I'm talking about and doing and I started to get caught. It's still uncomfortable sometimes for sure. But embracing that mentality more is made it enjoyable and you know, less anxiety for sure. Matt Cundill  02:37 I don't know how many times the word came up last time we got together and did this. But the most off phrase or words that we use was multi-platform. So how much have you incorporated multi-platform into Nlogic? Or how much does it come up in meetings into what you do over the last 365 days? 02:56 I would say it's in 90% of what I do a lot of the business for me from my level in my job. It's around 90% of the topics of all the meetings, I'm in the discussions I'm in, I've slowly started to pick up my PR presence and you'll see more of that as time goes on now that I'm feeling a lot more confident. That's the message that I'm putting out. That's not to say that 90% of in logics business, absolutely not, I would say it's more of 20-15 20%. But it's where we're seeing the vision. So like linear broadcast, TV and radio is central to our business and will continue to be and it's a part of a cross platform, multi platform story. It's we're not looking at it in isolation any longer. And it's not to decrease its relevance. It's just to show it as a key part of a broader story that goes across screens and across audio. Matt Cundill  03:51 I'm glad you mentioned that. So for anybody who's just in TV or just in radio, and then they hear multi-platform, I'm sure the first thing they hear is, oh, I've got a whole lot more work to do now. But if you're just in radio, what does it mean from from Nlogic side? You're gonna go multi-platform? What else does that include? For anybody who might be in terrestrial broadcast? 04:10 And the video side I know you said radio, but just to stick with the video side is is their contribution is a piece of a bigger puzzle. So although you may only be operating a channel operator, like net network TV in Canada, it's going to fit into a cross platform story if you're not doing most of them. Also, let's be honest, the most broadcasters are involved in streaming in some capacity and I would say most radio broadcasters as well. But it doesn't mean that you have to operate the technology of a multi platform ecosystem from your own company or really understand the ins and outs of it and you know, a little selfishly Nlogic what are the things I'm saying is, you know, we don't produce and distribute content Nlogic we don't sell or buy advertising it Nlogic because we see we are broadcast clients and our ad agency kind of starting to build tools, analytical tools and products internally in house because they're trying to solve. They're trying to see insights into things that they don't know. And we're saying, you know, you don't have to know how to do that we actually prefer you don't do that. And you invest your research dollars with us. And we'll solve that problem for you. So to answer your question, if you're a radio and you only do radio, you're a piece of a bigger puzzle, you're still a piece of that landscape that's important. And we can help connect you to the cross platform, world through through numbers, we can plug your radio standalone number to a cross platform picture. Matt Cundill  05:33 And so that sort of dovetails well into into video planner, which you unleashed, I guess, a few months ago, one of the companies that jumped on board right away was Chorus. And I think of what would be a company that this would be perfect for this would be absolutely perfect, for Chorus, because I see they've got Stack TV, they've got Sue Haas  05:52 Pluto... Matt Cundill  05:53 And Pluto, and they've got channels all over the place. Got some terrestrial channels, that could be global news, they've also got apps. So walk me through a little bit about video planner and how it solves problems and feel free to use Chorus. I know a lot of people from course, do listen to this podcast. 06:11 Yeah, sounds good. And this is gonna prep me because I'm actually in Vancouver Monday and Tuesday this week at the bsab conference my second year and where I am going to present the planner on stage. So it's helping me get ready for that. I've actually never demoed it myself. Usually the product team does. So should be interesting. But yeah, the video planner came out. So it was just over a year ago. So maybe 14 months ago, the end logic team, we have an innovation team in house. And there was a team tasked to look at the VAM a video audience measurement dataset that was relatively new and market and see if they could pull out any product ideas, commercial ideas that we could sell for money out of that data set. And as the team was looking at the data, and they'd been showing it to clients, as is one of the first questions they always got asked was, where's the reach and frequency calculator, because in the TAM TV audience data or radio audience data, they can do reach and frequency within those as a standalone. But when you get to VAM, there wasn't the capability to do exclusive reach and frequency cross platform built into VAM on its own. So the team decided to build this calculator, this tool. And it just started internally as a, as I said, an innovation project. So about 12 months later, we are no commercial and market we did as you know, sign on just said chorus we've signed on IPG media brands is the first agency as well. And for Chorus as an example they've run. I don't even know the exact number right now, but at least 22 real world scenarios through the planner, and they were what's considered our alpha partner. So they they helped us launch this product and worked on some real early stage r&d with it to get it right. From a broadcaster point of view, we also have partners for will be having partners from the agency point of view and advertiser as well because it is meant for all of those clients segments. But in the case of Chorus we would run as a managed service, these scenarios like camp real campaign scenarios that they want to run advertising scenarios across, as you said, stack and Pluto and Global TV app, and their linear TV, of course, and they saw strong results with it, which is why they signed on as an early partner. And it helps helps them sell incremental impressions outside of linear onto their own streaming platforms, they're able to tell a story where you want to hit this pay advertiser, you want to hit this specific demographic, we know you're getting them say on History TV, guess what you can also get them on Pluto, you can also get them on stack, we can show you that. And you don't have to buy that digital inventory outside. Of Chorus you can stay stay with us and spend more of your budget with us. And obviously, that's a story that Chorus likes and we hope live other clients will like as well. Matt Cundill  09:01 I love that going on that multi platform thing and trying to incorporate ways to do it. I mean, we have a problem in podcasting, we don't know how to count the video side of it. You have to deal with YouTube, YouTube has its own way of counting things. And you know, it's not the same way as you know, an IED download which you need to listen to a minute of the show. So we're doing both here. And I just ask is that when I give you the stats and the downloads for the for the show that you don't take the numbers and jam them together? Because a YouTube view is just somebody touching play and a download is somebody who listened for at least a minute. And I don't know how much you would know about this. Maybe I have to speak to somebody in your innovation department. But when it comes to counting, is it pretty simple to count, we're just counting impressions, or do we have to sort of aggregate in different ways between the multi platforms in order to count? 09:49 The foundation for the video planner, as I said is based on VAM. So it's based on the methodology for how video audience measurement that dataset works, which is the TV parts coming from TAM, sorry. This is something I learned to also my first year is all the acronyms RAM TAM, VAM. Matt Cundill  10:05 I think by the last year when we talked, you were talking about all those things. And you had to stop the meeting a few times, just to say, remind me what that is. 10:13 Yeah, that's a learning curve. For sure. It's, but yes, so there is the PPM as I think you are well aware, the metered service for the TV part. That's how that gets measured. And on the digital side, there the streaming side, there's our tracking on the router and your home. So it's measuring household consumption. And people ask, like, Is it tracking, you know, my banking website and things like that it's not, it's a very whitelisted list of media based website. So anything that's self defined, or we Numeris defines as media, it will track that through your internet connection. So and it's by device, so any mobile phone, any laptop, any computer connected to the Wi Fi in the home, it, it tracks that, as far as if you logged on to YouTube, we don't do impressions, it's much. It's just general tuning. Matt Cundill  11:00 Tell me a little bit about shifting the company, because I've noticed and we've talked about because we do talk outside of just doing these podcasts. Nlogic uses a sort of supply data. And then we would interpret data, which is a bit of a rear view, hey, this happened. And this is where you're at. But now, it says it right in the word planner, you know, we're looking ahead, we're looking at things like inventory. We're looking ahead and ways ways to plan, why was it important for Nlogic to make that shift. 11:28 Nlogic, as you said, has historically been very, their main job was to take insights primarily from numerous the parent company and put them out as insights into the market, which is great. And of course, we still do that. But we wanted to have more actionable insights, something that can actually turn into eventually an outcome and ROI for our clients. And insights alone, just the data sets on their own are just not good enough anymore, we have to get them farther along the campaign cycle. So that is what we decided to do. And also for for planning, we saw it was a real fit in the as we move more into cross platform, there are tools out there. And I maybe mentioned this before, but I don't think we talked about the planner much last year, it was barely a thing last year. But there's a handful of other tools specific in the Canadian market, few from agency side, like we have a consultant on the team who went out and did quite a bit of market research. And everyone has a little way of doing planning within their company. But you'd be surprised a lot of it's just cutting and pasting results like campaign results from from YouTube or from meta from their linear side, mashing it together and spreadsheets into PowerPoint. It's all these hack together ways of trying to get to campaign planning and measurement. And they're like, yes, please help solve this for us. And we bring the TV part we bring the currency of the TV part, I know VAM isn't considered currency, but the the TAM that feeds to VAM  is, and we feel like that is a real unique selling point that we have. And also what I've learned in the years, there's, you hear it all the time, it's a ton of fragmentation, because every digital player measures their own audience, obviously, that leads to a lot of distrust, and I haven't I didn't notice it as much before I came to numerous because, you know, we're just pulling you to number and that's the YouTube number I didn't really sort of embarrassed to say, but you didn't really question it too much. Why not like the number, but because everyone who who activates on YouTube uses that number you don't really think of of it differently. But when you're when you want to look at a piece of content, not just on YouTube, but also on TV and also on a streaming platform, for example, then all of a sudden, you want something centralized, and you want a company that you feel is maybe third party neutral, you don't want to hear what's my cross platform number from Google, if they were able to see the linear number and see the Amazon number. And they're gonna tell you the whole list the full story, you don't want to hear that. I'm assuming I shouldn't maybe say that. But you don't want to you want to hear from someone neutral third party. And that's something that's unique, I think for Numeris and Nlogic in the market, because we don't have skin in the game in the sense of, we're not biased, like we're not owned by a big broadcast, or we're not owned by a platform. We are data software insights company, and we want to help our clients do better business. So... Matt Cundill  14:24 It's funny, you mentioned that because, you know, Spotify just decided they just don't need IAB certified metrics when it comes to providing their ads or providing their downloads and reporting their data. They decided they want to do it themselves. And you just mentioned a little bit that that could lead to distrust. And then it's something that the podcast business is going to have to figure out over the next little while about how much they trust Spotify, when it comes to you know, that form of measurement. Sue Haas  14:49 Yeah, I see both sides of it. So you have to be able to provide insights that lead to improved business result, because I can understand if like, oh, Thanks Nlogic for providing us these insights. And I look at your numbers and it's not helping me drive my business a the numbers are making my business look worse than maybe the internal analytics you're getting from the platform. But you're not, you're not helping drive a sales story, and you're not helping the business move along, I can see that complaints, I can see why you wouldn't want to invest in us if we're not improving your situation. So that's where I've really tried to focus the last year on results being results driven with our clients really understanding what their challenges are, and trying to help them and, and if reading and interpreting the numbers that we're putting out, if they can't find a story within it, can we help you find a business story like a sales story that helps focus you in a better light, and that can help them with the planner to like, you can pull different demos and pull different we have a part in it called buying segments. So this came from I don't know if you're familiar with the common industry segments, but these are segments that were put together by think TV, and Brodix and Numeris, and Chorus and their behavioral targeting. So similar to you could be like a fashionista or a sports enthusiast. So instead of just buying on the adults 18 Plus or adults 25-54 You can buy on these against these behavioral segments. And it's a more of a with a Digital's is bought and sold but you can kind of test out different buying segments to see what's telling a better story for your, for your inventory. So if it's if you're not getting a big part, if you use your planning tool, it's not showing you a lot of inventory to segment, maybe try another segment, like try to get it so that you're you're looking good. Tara Sands (Voiceover)  16:34 Transcription of the sound off podcast is powered by the You May Also Like podcast, the show about people places and things. Follow the show on your favorite podcast app, or at youmayalsolike.net Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  16:49 This podcast supports podcasting 2.0. So feel free to send us a boost. If you're listening on a new podcast app, find your new app now at podcasting2.point.org/apps. That's podcasting. podcasting2.point.org/apps. Matt Cundill  17:04 I don't think anybody's actually asking this question. But I will say that people are probably saying, Oh, what are you doing for audio. And I'm here to say that most of what is done for audio, whether it's like ad tracking, or anything like that, it's already available, and it's already been done. You're just reflecting the rush to video. And there's been a huge rush to video for just about everything. We've seen the explosion of TikTok and reels, Facebook abandoned podcasting, and they pushed in on on video, multi-platform When we talk about multi platform, we're really talking about the different ways that video gets distributed. Am I right in saying that most of the conversations are really about harnessing video and how it's distributed and counting it? Sue Haas  17:47 For Nlogic. Yes, when we say cross platform, it means video, video and all its its formats. And in any way you can watch and listen to it. The cross media, I mean small distinction, I would say when we say cross media that would include your audio. We don't work in print, as you know, we don't work in at home or anything like that. So it's really just audio video for us. For the planner, I want to say this too, if the market comes to us, like if our radio broadcaster clients and agencies say Hey, can you include audio in the planning tool, we can do that it is an item on our roadmap. And we're waiting to have it triggered by by one of our clients asking us to prioritize and move it forward. So if someone comes to us and say, Hey, I would love to see what this audience looks like, across linear TV, the pure play streamers, social video and radio, we can add radio in there, it just we need there to be a market demand for that. And I think on the advertising side, it's less common, it's a less common need to plan an ad campaign across video plus radio, it just doesn't come up as much in my experience, but an ad planner by would have to tell you for sure. But if there is a need, we can definitely start to prioritize and put that into the roadmap for our video planning tool. Matt Cundill  19:09 Couple of the fun webinars that have passed through on your website in the last little while include and I know the pandemic ended in May of 2023. It's over Sue Haas  19:20 Declared Over Yeah... Matt Cundill  19:21 Yeah, but just but you still got some data that shows things about our shopping habits. And you know, I will preface is, you know, we we get a ratings book in and we would look at the data and we say okay, that's we have to remember that is a snapshot of a particular time when the data was collected. And we're two or three months down the road from there who knows where we're at now, but that is a snapshot of where it's at. But you're very good at NLogic at taking those snapshots and then presenting them to people and then finding a little bit of trends as well. So the pandemic and shopping a lot of people stop talking about the pandemic but yet it's still a thing with with audience and we can see a lot of little changes that have happened in the last little while. Sue Haas  19:58 You're referring to a blog posts we put up coming out of our RTS data, which is consumer insights data. So a little plug to that we do have a consumer insights product called sales pro that uses RTS. And this is a sample size. I think it's 30 or 40,000. People who this is survey based information on behavior, and it's really, really strong. Admittedly, I don't think as a company use it to its full potential. So that is something that I'd love to dive into and see what kind of products we can pull out of it and make it stronger. But yes, so the pandemic info came out of that survey, I don't remember the it was the follow of the spraying. There's two of them. I don't remember which one, but it was talking about the surge in online shopping, and talking about specific categories that were better or worse on that. Matt Cundill  20:48 So when you look back at that, and by the way, you do not have to refer to the study for that to answer this next question. Sue Haas  20:53 Okay. Okay. Thanks. So I don't know all that well... Matt Cundill  20:55 But you're the perfect person to answer this question. Do you think the pandemic accelerated what was going to happen anyway? Sue Haas  21:02 In media? Matt Cundill  21:03 Yeah. And media and buying habits, shopping habits? Did it just accelerate it? Or did it change it? Sue Haas  21:09 I think it accelerated, I think there would have been that shift to online a huge shift to a bigger shift to online shopping, it was inevitable. And it sped it up. And then once people invested in having better online shops, and moving their business to Shopify, and for smaller players, and just like staffing up on the bigger econ businesses, they were able to sustain, although there was some businesses, I mean, I've just mentioned Shopify, and that's, you know, a Canadian superstar. And thinking that they ended up I don't remember when, but had to do quite a few layoffs. So some people over invested, being very optimistic with the pandemic, and then had to scale back through teams, because they weren't able to meet those financial goals that they had set are predicted. But I would think we are generally a society that operates online. I mean, I wish I wish some ways of work, just seeing even how my, I feel like I work my kids into every interview that I do, but seeing how they, you know, interact with each other, and most of their social activity is done online. And to be honest, most of it is done on Tik Tok, and Snapchat, and I have 1013 year old. And I think about it all the time when I think about media and how we have to have media and buying behavior, as you're saying. And despite what we may think, like, oh, you get older and you change your habits. You too, but you don't lose that exposure that you had earlier on in your life. And I think that's very hard for our demographic to understand. Because we we didn't really have the will we certainly didn't have the internet the way that they have it and social media, we didn't have it at all, I didn't have it growing up. So you can't really compare that I'm not impacted as that as a midlife because I didn't have that exposed to me 1015. And my point is, I think what I hear this a lot in, in panels and things is that oh, as you get older, your switch to big screen and beyond on the glass when you're older. Yes, of course you you'll have some more money, disposable income, you'll pay for more services, you might subscribe to linear, but you're still going to be heavily heavily influenced and involved I think in the social behaviors that you grew up with, and your social media behaviors, whatever those platforms are, I'm not saying this platforms are gonna stay the same. But you're going to have a different experience. I think that was just a really long tangent I went on but... Matt Cundill  23:26 But a good tangent. 23:27 I heard this at a at a talk a few weeks ago, if you don't have people in your strategy team and your senior level teams that are 30 and under, you're missing the boat, you're not getting a perspective that's going to drive the economy and drive media and the next decades because it is so fundamentally different. And I said I noticed that I noticed how they interact with media how they watch TV, which sometimes is they're always you know, two screens and commenting on it through their friends on social and it's just a different way of experiencing it that I think the upper echelons of broadcasting and agencies are always considering Matt Cundill  24:05 Are you double screened when you are watching television? Sue Haas  24:08 Sometimes I am I am not the worst for this I do have friends though who fold or double screen always. I actually do get quite absorbed in TV shows and movies. So I don't I like to stay focus. It's a It's actually one of my key ways of relaxing at the end of the day. Jump into another world for an hour or so. So no, I don't do it as much unless I'm not scrolling on socials if I have a few like quick work emails to finish up to text my mom something like that I'll do but I'm generally not Mindlessly scrolling and watching TV. No. Matt Cundill  24:41 So I have a couple of double box experiences a sports generally stuff the whistle goes during a hockey game. I might say something definitely football. When football is on. I'll make some comments. And the Bachelor. I mean, there's a whole Bachelor, chit chat that goes on cracking jokes and saying things and it's it's quite  humorous, so, there are some fun double box experiences. And those are primarily done on x. Because I think that's really one of the only real time social platforms that's out there. Sue Haas  25:09 Are you a gamer? Do you play video games? Matt Cundill  25:12 I do not. Sue Haas  25:12 Me neither. But that's another. I think I just missed the boat by a few years on that because my younger brother and his group is very into it. But that's another thing. I don't think we're considering enough. It's just gamification and media and social and gaming, and how impactful they're going to be to younger generations. Matt Cundill  25:33 And twitch. Sue Haas  25:34 Yeah, for sure. Live. Yeah. Matt Cundill  25:37 What's the innovation team working on these days, if you can talk about that? 25:41 Sure, this is some pretty specific things I'll throw at you. But in the video planner, which I keep talking about it, we I have narrowed down things to this planning tool, because there's we have a lot of our existing products in market that drive, you know, huge chunk majority of the business. So I can't have a lot of stuff on the net new exciting projects. But we do, we did prioritize this one because we really want it to make it successful in market and, and the pipeline looks great on it. So I have high hopes. But one of the caveats to VAM, as the foundational data is that is not national. And well aware of that this is I had to be saving next week in Vancouver, and numerous will be working. They are working on a national coverage. But it's it's still always out timelines not announced yet. So the Nlogic team is modeling out a national audience using machine learning AI data science, in advance of the official roll up from numerous. So they're working on that. And I would say that's one of our top priorities through the innovation team right now requires a lot of work from data science expertise, which is not a background that really anyone in you might be surprised, but it's not a skill set that and logic has hired in the past. So it's an opportunity and yet a hole that we're filling. And I said this actually we hosted an event on the 17th of April in Toronto was the first event. Of course, for me, it was literally on the day of my anniversary, I talked to you about this last week, and we were chatting. And I said if you if you have kids in university age are getting there, I recommend you encourage them to go into data science, because everyone's hiring for this type of role right now, in every business, not just media. It's everywhere. So yeah, so the national coverage for the planner, a modeling that is a big project that the team is working on and another area, and with the planner that we aren't able to craft yet that we're trying to model out is for us, we're really focused, probably not a surprise coming from a linear background on on premium streaming. So that broadcast are enabled streaming, which they like to be called, in addition to be VOD. So broadcasts are enabled streaming, plus, you know, Amazon, Netflix, Disney, etc. And as they go to what we would call like a mixed subscription ad based and they have AD tears been announced, like, like Amazon in February launched their ads in Canada, the planning tool is supposed to show you where should you put your ad money to run pre roll mid roll ads. And if say it's Netflix, and you're just going by watch time or share of of audience, it's going to show a huge percentage because a lot of people watch Netflix in Canada, but it's going to be deceiving because not all that watch time is ad supported. Because a lot of people aren't in the ad tier. So we need to be able to show what percentage is actually you actually buy ads on. So that's something we're trying to model out as well with the team and no one has that answer right now the individual platforms No, but that's not shared and with a central place, like in logic, so we're working on national national representation with the planner, because we're only Franco Quebec, Franco and Ontario right now, that does however, make up 60% of Canada proportionally. But of course, we want to have local representation, and then the what we're calling the ad factor. So to be able to simulate percentage of ad supported inventory on these hybrid platforms. Matt Cundill  29:02 Well, Sue, I wish you luck at BCA B and anytime that you're rolling out your video ad planner, I think you did very well as the rehearsal by the way, comedians use podcasts for rehearsing their bits. And it's great to know that you're doing the same thing here. Sue Haas  29:17 Well, thank you, Matt. Thanks for having me back. Matt Cundill  29:20 By the way, did we do video last time? Sue Haas  29:22 No, we didn't actually we talked about it. And I was talking about content strategies on YouTube and tick tock and things from my previous job. And you said, Well, maybe next year, we'll record you and I was like, Okay, and here it is. I'm dressed a little bit nicer today, just in case people see me in addition to hearing me. Matt Cundill  29:42 Ya well, we talk a lot about the jump into video and yet here we are. We're doing this now on video. So it's first time that you and I've gotten together and done this on video and of course the video technology has accelerated to the point where here we are in high definition. Sue Haas  29:54 I will hopefully get you a few extra video impressions on this podcast. Matt Cundill  29:58 So thanks so much for doing this really appreciate you taking the time and good luck in year two at Nlogic. Sue Haas  30:03 Thanks Matt. Tara Sands (Voiceover)  30:04 The Sound Off Podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski. Edited by Chloe Emond-Lane. Social media by Aidan Glassey. Another great creation from the Soundoff Media Company. There's always more at soundoffpodcast.com.