Jay Nachlis recently celebrated 5 years at Coleman Insights, he admitted that "not every career move I've made was the best decision, but every one of them was important for different reasons. With every single one, I made lasting friendships, learned from mistakes, and got better." Which is why he ascended to VP/Consultant & Marketing Director at Coleman Insights earlier this year. I had the opportunity to meet Jay at Podcast Movement earlier this year and found ourselves talking about Canadian radio, Buffalo, the Buffalo Bills, podcasting, and more Buffalo Bills. In this episode, you will hear about Jay's early radio days working in Syracuse at the campus radio station, (WJPZ) going back to San Francisco to look for work, only to return to Syracuse at WYYY and rise to PD at the age of 24. We later get into his time in Buffalo, Detroit and a very important moment involving comedian Kurtis Connor, which Jay blogged about here. We also spoke about the buzz in the room at Morning Show Bootcamp and Podcast Movement. Jay also does voiceovers I also asked about Nickelback and their fractured yet passionate relationship with rock radio fans. Here is an excellent article from the National Post I was interviewed for from last year. And we also exchanged Shinedown stories. Here is the extra song they played for our audience when they visited the radio station I was programming. It did not take long for the good people at Boom 97.3 to take note of the show and react to our discussion about Jay's blog. In short, during a performance in Raleigh, Toronto Comedian Kurtis Connor told his Gen Z / Millennial audience that he listened to the radio. That led to a smattering of boos followed by Conner telling the audience how much he enjoys the station. When done well - radio is awesome. From the sounds of it, it sounds like there's not a lot of it being done well in Raleigh. By the way, our episode with Troy McCallum is still one of our best and can be enjoyed here: TRANSCRIPTION Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:00:01 The sound off podcast. The podcast about broadcast with Matt Cundill starts now. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:10 Jay Nachlis and I met a few weeks ago at Podcast Movement. He was introduced, used to me by my fellow podcast super friend Jag in Detroit. Jay worked in radio from the early ninties up until 2014, then transitioned to something else, which you'll hear about, and then hooked up with Coleman Insights, who consult radio groups and so much more. Now with Coleman Insights, I've sat through many of their research projects in the past, and they are excellent. Whether it was music trends or podcast downloads or brand building, I always circle that session on the event calendar. Now back to that conversation I was having with Jay at Podcast Movement. He mentioned his time in radio in Buffalo, and then of course, our conversation shifted to my favorite two subjects, which are the Buffalo Bills and radio. We'll probably talk more about the latter than the former. Jay Nachlis joins me from Raleigh, North Carolina. But his story starts back with his acceptance at Syracuse University. Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:01:06 University? I went to school there from 90 to 93, December 93, and then I left for home in San Francisco and thought I was going to find a radio gig somewhere else. And then Syracuse called me back and I was there at 96. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:21 So we have a very similar pathway because I went to school in Nova Scotia, there was no radio elsewhere, and I wound up working in Nova Scotia. Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:01:29 Yeah, it's funny how that happens. I mean, you're already there, right? I was doing part time at 184 FM in Syracuse, and then overnight gig became available in those two weeks after I graduated. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:40 And you were already working on campus too, right? Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:01:42 Yeah. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:43 Wjpz. You never forget your first, do you? Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:01:47 You sure don't, especially that one. Like the group of people that were there and the infrastructure they had, and the fact that in their bylaws they had that it needed to be a CHR station because it was the hardest format to learn was pretty awesome. So it was a really neat experience. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:02:02 Okay, so I thought, oh, it's campus and it's the early ninety S. I was thinking that maybe it would be a lot of the records you can't get at Sunrise or Tower, and you'd be playing weird stuff like Jesus Jones and the Mission and all sorts of other stuff that hadn't necessarily charted. Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:02:16 No, not so much. I was bringing Naughty by Nature to town. I'm slightly embarrassed to say that we played Michael Bolton on a college station. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:02:25 But that was the era. I mean, Janet Jackson, Escapade, there must have been a whole bunch of stuff like that. Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:02:30 Absolutely. No, it was great. That kind of period in between 89 to 91, right. Was not the greatest for pop. A whole lot of milly vanilla and dino and sweet sensation and seduction. I mean, maybe you like that, but it was kind of a weird time for pop, but by the time we were doing that in the early to mid ninety s, there was a really good selection to choose from. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:02:51 Tell me about going back to San Francisco and not finding any work. Where did you look? Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:02:56 Well, back then, like, I would send my tape and resume anywhere, and so I did. I mean anywhere. I sent it to consultants, I sent it to group heads, to PDS, whoever, and I got a call from a station in Buffalo first, actually, it was not Kiss, it would have been Star, but it was for like a part time gig. And then I got a call from Syracuse, and this woman who had been doing overnights was let go or left the station, and they said, do you want to come back and work overnights in Syracuse for $16,000 a year? Well, how can I pass that up? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:03:34 Which is also the same amount of money I was making in my first gig. If you converted over to Canadian money. Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:03:40 Now, did you also work a paper route and work at a record store? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:03:44 I did the paper route when I was eight years old. Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:03:49 My wife and I, before we were married, used to drive around in the winter in Syracuse to try and supplement that income. Sunday morning, as we woke up at four or five in the morning, and we got all of those newspapers in our little car, stash them in the back and would drive around delivering newspapers, and somehow we're still together. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:04:08 And the radio station you were working at was W-Y-Y yeah, except that was. Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:04:12 A great company, New City, and we had other stations involved, so I helped launch Hot 179, which is still around. That was WH, so it flipped during the time I was there, but those were the two stations I work with. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:04:25 APD, and then eventually PD. Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:04:27 Yeah, it was the classic overnights tonights to afternoons, music director to APD, and then left for San Francisco. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:04:36 So you're 24 years old and you're programming AC. So you've already started out campus and you're disappointed by the CHR, and now you're 24 and you're programming AC. At that age, I wanted to do the exciting music. This is not exciting music if you're 24. Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:04:51 No, but at that time you got infatuated by the industry. The actual tracks you were playing weren't even that important. It was the fact that you got a chance to pick them and you got a chance to meet them right. And you went to the shows, and at that age, how can you beat that and go into lunches and dinners with record reps? And that's like living the dream in. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:05:13 Your by today's standards, we look at that and say, well, that's really young to be programming, but it probably isn't that crazy. And we should probably be doing more of that now in radio today, and that's letting younger people 24, 25 program radio stations. I know I was ready to program it and make a zillion mistakes. I didn't get my first programming gig until I was 36 years old. I think I probably would have been more effective doing it at a younger age than at an older age. But do you think that's a big mistake we make in radio and not letting younger people program 100%? Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:05:44 And to take that a step further, the company that I mentioned a few minutes ago, New City, so this was in the early 90s. They allowed me in my early twenty s to go to research presentations, and I wasn't a program director yet, but they let me set into presentations of perceptuals in Syracuse. They even flew me to Bridgeport, Connecticut, which is where company headquarters were, and I got to participate there because they wanted me to learn, and they were giving me the opportunity. And I think they were the type of company that knew, like, this kid isn't eventually going to be he was not going to be in Syracuse his whole life, and they were okay with that. They're going to be able to train me and coach me and get as much as they could out of me while I was there, but they celebrate as much as anybody, more than anybody, when it was time for me to go and get my first kick. So the fact that I had that mentoring and coaching from them was so important. It was why I was able to become a program director as young as I did. And so I think it's really important. And you mentioned mistakes. I made plenty, but I also had general managers that allowed me to make the mistakes and sometimes were really tough on me when I made those mistakes, which ultimately makes it better. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:06:48 What did you see the first time you saw research being done for music auditorium and radio and perceptions? What were your takeaways from it? What made your eyes open? Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:06:58 Yeah, it was the moment that I wanted I knew at some point in my career I would want to do what I do now. I thought it was so cool that they could take this data and somehow put it together in this magical mix and strategically tell you, here are the opportunities, here's what we're doing great, here's what we can do better. And that this all just came from a page of numbers on a spreadsheet, and their ability to explain it. And for me, anything I've ever done in radio, whether being on the air, which I've always loved, being a program director, which I loved, the stuff that I always liked the most, was the strategy part of it. And that's the thing that was the takeaway, right, was the ability to look at this and come up with a strategic plan. That's what I love. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:07:38 I remember my first musical auditorium session going in, seeing the listeners they're hearing the songs, they're answering the questions. There's paper and there's pencils. And actually it was someone I think, you know, Jeff Didler from Signal Insights, who way back then, in 1995, we were going through it all, and I saw what you saw. I couldn't believe that we could extrapolate all this information in order to make a better sounding radio station, but it works. Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:08:05 I had a guy that was one of my mentors, Alan First, who was the program director in Syracuse. Allen came up with this idea when we flipped that station to 79, we did a stunt, and it was called Hooks 108. And he took an actual hook tape where you know how in the auditorium tests back in the day, they would go one, play the hook at two. He just ran like 800 hooks and he looped it all in a row, but he played sweepers in the middle. And then he'd say, on your way to work, you used to hear three or four songs. Now you hear 80 or 90 hooks 108. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:08:38 So that was well ahead of its time. When you think of the Quick Hits format, you brought something back in my mind about the songs, and that a couple of the songs in the auditorium test would be repeated just to measure fatigue and burn on the audience who are doing the testing. Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:08:52 Yeah, that's right. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:08:54 Wow, that was a while ago. But I'm glad to know that this was sort of the foundation that was going to lead you into doing research. But you still did radio, and how did you ever get involved with working with Ryan Seacrest? Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:09:05 So my program director at K 101 in 1996 was Casey Keating, and Casey hired Ryan, who was at the time working at Star 98 Seven in La. And was really very young. This was pre American Idol, and he had done like some stuff with e and kind of freelance type stuff here and there. But he was doing the show in La. And Casey brought him up to do afternoons at K 101. And it was never a great fit. Like, he's an La. Guy and he just fits so well in Los Angeles and never quite fit in K 101 for a number of reasons. Most notably, the format, it was more of an AC station and his show didn't really quite fit. What we were doing were more mainstream AC. But for that period, Casey left the station, I was still there, and so for a time, I was Ryan's program director. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:09:55 Did you head back out east to. Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:09:57 Buffalo from San Francisco? I went to Buffalo in 1997 to program Alice at 92-9 Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:09:57 . Yes. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:10:03 Reengage my mind about what the Alice format was. Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:10:07 Whether you call it modern AC or pop alternative, it was that time. Lilith Fair is always the two words I'll just use to describe the whole thing. Right. It was Sarah McLaughlin and Dave Matthews and Bare Naked Ladies and Matchbox 20 and all of those bands. And for the period between 97 and 99, there was plenty of product. But it fizzled out by 2000. And a lot of the stations, especially ones that were owned by CBS because we had been sold from American radio systems to CBS they started flipping them to jam. And all these stations, including mine. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:10:41 What about some of the music Transparent from the 1990s? We touched on the late Eighties, early Nineties with the Sweet Sensations and all sorts of bands that nobody can seem to recall. I do remember when we get to about 94 there's just Hooting the Blowfish and Top 40 is kind of Spin Doctors, Hooting the Blowfish and there's nothing really to talk about. It Gets Better, 96 ish and 97 and some boy bands come in and then eventually sort of onto the Alice. But does that really summarize what the 90s were? Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:11:08 I think it does, yeah. I mean, there was some of that post scrunch period in the mid 90s as well. But that period of pop alternative was really great. But I think the issue was it was just too singular. Right. It's one sound. And so we look back on it today and just like jam and olives, you can't make a format out of one sound. It needed more texture, it needed more volume and it didn't have that. And that's why it ended up not lasting. Although a lot of the stuff that came out that time still tests now, it does really well. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:11:39 And I think this is kind of an important era here when you're programming in western New York in Buffalo from 97 right through until about 2000. This is really the end of radio owning music because it's not long after that that Napster comes in and a lot of things begin to really the Internet really begins to hemorrhage down on CD sales and radio as being the first place where we will discover new music. Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:12:04 Right. No, that's a really good point. Everything started changing at that point. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:12:07 And where were you at the turn of the millennium? Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:12:10 So after the station switched from Alice to Jam and oldies they gave me an opportunity to program it, actually. And I didn't want to do it because I just didn't want another format to fail in that building. And so I went to Detroit and programmed another station called Alice. Alice went to 6.7, so I went from Alice to Alice. Although the second Alice station was different in that it was really, in some ways, I think, ahead of its time because it was an adult hit station before the Jack thing exploded. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:12:44 And you're also working at Clear Channel, which is a growing company at that point. So 96 in radio there was a lot of deregulation and a company like Clear Channel began to buy up a bunch of signals. So tell me a little bit about working for Clear Channel in that era? Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:12:58 Well, when I first took the job in Detroit, it was AM/ Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:12:58 FM. And for those that don't remember, Am FM was a gigantic radio company, owned a lot of radio stations. And in fact, I remember that was a company that invested in bringing out programmers together to conferences and really being collaborative. And I really liked an F. It was a great company to work for. And I remember at one of those conferences, one of the heads got up and said, we're never going to be sold. We're too big to be sold. And then they got sold to Clear Channel. So to answer your question about Clear Channel, the challenges, I think, at that time was that they were really experimenting with voice tracking for the first time and putting prime shifts voice tracks, even in some larger markets. And I had to adapt and be a proponent of some of that stuff. And some of it I thought was really useful and agreed with and other stuff I really did not. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:13:50 How uncomfortable did it make you feel having conversations about voice tracking? Too talent? Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:13:55 Really uncomfortable, because I think voice tracking is great when it serves certain purposes, like the fact that a jock doesn't have to work on a holiday because they can voice track. Great. Certain shifts where it makes sense, great. There are places for it, but then there are other. This was market at the time, I think Detroit was market seven. Maybe it was market ten. Pointes here's the top ten market. I didn't feel like Afternoon Drive should be voicetracked. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:14:22 You find it odd that 20 years later that there are stations who are still doing voice tracking poorly and probably fewer than doing them well. Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:14:30 Yeah, I think that's true. But there have been plenty of instances where they're doing it really well as well and have learned how to do it well. But at the same time, it's a completely different skill, right. Being live on the air and putting out a show that's voice tracked, where you're trying to give the appearance of it being relaxed and live and that the listener doesn't really notice. That's a whole skill on its own. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:14:53 Yeah, when you hear it, you know it. I know their voice track, but they're doing it really well. And I, for one, I fall in the bucket of I'm voice tracking this and I'm doing it poorly. It's something, you're either good at it or you're not good at it. You know it or you don't. Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:15:06 Yeah. You know how it is when you're a jock and over time you just become more confident, right. And so you become less scripted. Not because you're consciously feeling less scripted, you just become less scripted. Your tone becomes more relaxed, your confidence in going off of script and making little comments or even tapping the microphone. That's the kind of stuff that never comes to jocks. Early in their career because they're too nervous about what they're saying and how to get it out later in your career. That stuff comes really natural and you're completely confident in your own skin. If you can do that in voice tracking, then you can get away with it. The problem is so many are just trying to get the script down and they end up sounding so monotone, so stiff. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:15:52 That's exactly how I sounded when I voice tracks. It's hard. What was your favorite software to program music and why was it Selector? Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:16:02 Believe it or not, my entire career, at every radio station I worked at, it was only Selector and it was version twelve, whatever. And I never did g selector while I was a PD or a music director. I always did the good old Dos version of Selector. Today I can still whip that out and put out a pretty strong music law. Although now on the research consultant side, when we're working with some of our clients and I go into their backups, I now see Music Master and Selector. And Music Master is a pretty cool program. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:16:32 So you're bringing back memories again of Dos. That version twelve of RCS was solid because you could do it really fast. It would do everything you wanted it to do. It just looked funny because of the Dos presentation. But I do remember I beta tested RCS 15 and it was clunky and slow and I was full of regret. Actually rolled a couple stations back from 15 to the Dos version of twelve, much to the dismay of many people. Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:17:00 I think you make a great point 100%. Like the speed, the ease of use, so you can make fun of Dos as much as you want. But from a user functionality standpoint, which seems silly because you would think that something that's not a Windows program would be less functional. But I'm with you on that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:17:15 I still go down to Longawkwaid, which is a music store here in Canada, and I go in and everything is still Dos. And I kind of admire them for it because it works, it is stable, it never crashes. When did it ever crash? It never crashed. It never frozen. Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:17:29 Never? No. You know, that's a great point. No blue screen of death with DOS Selector? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:17:34 No. Maybe the computer would give out and the power supply would go, but it was never a blue screen of death. How did you get down to Raleigh? Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:17:42 So, let's see. When I left Detroit, this was in 2003, I received a call from Mike Cartel and Phil Zachary, who were part of running Curtis Media here. Mike was the GM of 96 Rock and Phil was the president of Curtis Media and it's a local company in North Carolina. I'd never been to Raleigh, didn't know much about it at all. But I really liked the opportunity to go to a place where maybe I could be for more than two or three years, because the first early part of your career, it's like, what's the next step? Where am I going to go up? What market am I moving to? And I was starting to get to a point where I wanted to be somewhere I wanted to be for a long time with a company I wanted to be with for a long time. And going through that process, I thought Curtis Media and this area checked the boxes and really ended up doing so. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:18:29 We spent a long time there over ten years. So what did you do there? Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:18:33 I was program director of 96 Rock, which is a mainstream rock station. And then in the early 2000 and Tens, the station shifted to become Radio 96 One, which was more of an adult hits station with a rock lean. And then after that, I left Radio for a while, but that's what I did at Curtis Media. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:18:53 So what happened exactly in that era between 2003 and 2011? Musically, I can't recall a single thing. Nobody else can either. That's why we have the hits of seems to be wound into the what exactly happened in that era musically? Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:19:11 A lot of nickelback. Matt. That's what happened. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:19:13 Are you blaming me for that, by the way? Is that my fault? Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:19:16 Well, no, not entirely. Only, like, 75%. That's fine. I tease my kid. I have a 19 year old who loves some of his favorite music is like Shine Down and Breaking Benjamin and Nickelback and Three Days Grace. Really? Because that's all I played for about eight years. Nobody wants to hear that anymore. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:19:35 You know, Nickelback's got a brand new song that just came out today, and it sounds exactly the way you think it would sound. Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:19:43 I'm shocked. I went to a Nickelback show once when I was at 96 Rock, and all these people kept telling me, listen, no matter what you think about Nickelback, you're going to love them live. You've got to go see a Nickelback show. And in the middle of the show, Chad Kroeger brings up, he gets a slingshot out and he puts a beer in it, and he slings the beer into the crowd, and somehow this beer stays upright the whole time and lands in this guy's hands who catches the beer. And I thought, people are really misunderstanding Nickelback. They're special. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:20:13 But you're a research guy, so you know the trends with this thing. So if I'm programming a radio station, whether it was in 2004 or even today, we know Nickelback is polarizing. How do you advise clients through Nickelback today? Whenever. Even back then, the band is very polarizing. They can fill the arena, yet they irritate radio listeners, but some people turn it up. I'm not quite sure how to deal with that. Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:20:38 Yeah, but at that time they were mass appeal enough. They pop crossover. It was weird how the perception of Nickelback was much worse than the performance of the songs. There was a disconnect between the image and perception of the band and the way the songs perform. Those songs tested extremely well, which is why everyone ended up playing them, but nobody would admit to liking them. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:21:01 I see a band like Shinedown. I really enjoy Shinedown, and they are the nicest band. And they come to your radio station and they shake hands and they meet all the listeners and they sign everything. And then they said to me and say, we need to speak with you. And I said, oh, it's going to be a problem. And I go into a room and I wonder what they're upset about. It maybe it's a set up or the guitar. Some listener told them to f off or something. No, Matt, we want to thank you for inviting us to the radio station today. Oh, okay. And I thought if more rock bands did that, I think rock would be a more viable format today. It would have more of a community and have a little bit of love. I can't remember the last time a rock band actually said thank you to radio at the Grammys or anywhere. Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:21:42 This is what country does so well, right. The artists understand that that relationship with radio and that relationship with their fans is what builds loyalty and builds brands, and they do it so, so well. And I've always felt the same thing about rock. And I view Shine Down just like you as an example of a band that got it. I'll tell you a funny Shine Down story. Have you ever heard of the organization St Baldricks? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:22:05 No. Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:22:06 So it's a charity that was founded on St. Patrick's Day in a bar, I think by a bunch of, like, New York cops. And the idea was that they wanted to raise money for childhood cancer research, but they said, we're going to do it in kind of a fun way. We're going to do it at a bar, and we're going to call it Saint Baldrix. Do it around St. Patrick's Day, and you're going to get your head shaved, you're going to go bald, st. Baldricks to raise money for research. So this organization grows. It becomes bigger and bigger, and they start one in Raleigh, and we're the sponsor of it. And Shiny was playing a show in Raleigh the same day as our St. Baldrick's thing. And so I say, hey, can we bring them by the bar to do a quick meet and greet and say hello? Absolutely. So it's really cool. Now, the mistake that I made was I never set up or made sure that special security was there and all of that. So the band comes, and it's not like anyone who's mobbing them or anything. The problem was there was this jerk that got drunk and just kept badgering them, giving them a hard time, right? And so they start walking away towards their bus and this guy's following them. And I remember Zach or one of the other members of the band literally gets into a fight with the guy, and people are screaming, and kids cancer events, they're, like, throwing down. And then later that night so the record rep is calling me, and she's crying. She's all upset. She's like, I'm so sorry about what happened. Like, no, I'm so sorry about what happened. And then that night at the show, it's almost like this. There was a strange thing in the air in Raleigh. The guitar player whipped around and nailed Zach in the face, started bleeding and gushing. And the recruit calls me again. She says, what's the closest emergency room to the Lincoln feature? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:23:46 In just a second, Jay transitions out of Radio and into something he's already adept at marketing and research. Also, more about his work and the work at Pullman Insights. We also talk about what he did when he heard an arena full of people boo, the fact that someone was a dedicated radio listener. All right, spoiler alert. You blogged about it, and you can connect with that on our episode page and get a transcript of this episode@soundoffpodcast.com. Sarah Burke (Voiceover) 00:24:15 Transcription for the Sound Off podcast is powered by Poddin. Your podcast is an SEO goldmine. We help you to dig out start your free trial now at poddin dot I-O. Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:24:15 the Sound Off podcast with Matt Cundill. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:24:28 Tell me about when your time at Curtis came to an end because you went to go work for Carolina Learning Systems. I believe. Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:24:36 Yes. It was one of those weird things that happened. There was a guy by the name of Scott who was the owner of a company. The franchise was called New Horizons still around. It's a computer learning company. And I used to do live spots for Scott on my show, in the afternoon show. And so Scott was a client. He become a friend. I had done these spots for, like, ten years, and Scott wanted a head of marketing for his company. And he said, have you ever thought about leaving Radio? And I said, yeah, sure. I'm being honest. And he made me a pitch for why I should come work with him. And I made the decision to leave Radio and give it a shot. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:25:13 So why were you comfortable to leave Radio? Because I know after doing it for so long, so many people are not comfortable doing it. Some people go to a therapist, and the therapist asks them, why can't you leave Radio? I mean, Tara Sloane, for instance, who just lost her job with hometown hockey, talked about the grief that goes with losing your job or leaving the business altogether. I had to go through it. I still dream three times a week. I dream about being in a radio station still. So why are you so prepared to move on? Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:25:42 I thought I was prepared. The way you say it may have been. Exactly correct. I thought I was prepared because I thought to myself, look, if I get into a job like this, I'm getting into tech, I'm getting into marketing. And a lot of the stuff that I thought it was correct. I mean, being a program director, if you work in radio you have a lot more skills than you give yourself credit for. Radio people are terrible at that. They think that and they joke about the fact that, well, it's my only skill, it's all I can do. But you've got so many skills. You got sales and promotions and strategic mind and all of the stuff that goes into it. And so a lot of that is transferable. And I thought, well, I can learn the technology part, you can teach me the It business and I can bring this other stuff. And there was a lot more to learn than that. But to your point, I deeply missed the industry. And although there was some good to come out of the switch, I can tell you when the opportunity came back to get back into the radio industry, I was very happy to do so. And a day doesn't go by that I'm not thankful that I'm back in it because regardless of anything else, like I said, it's in your soul. It's too deep in your soul. Yeah. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:26:49 And you're so comfortable with the skills that you picked up, which included doing research from a very young age, computers, namely Atari and Das. And then here's a client who comes along and you're voicing the spots and you go and you do the jump. But you're also pretty good. I mean you've got a pretty good voice and you do a fair amount of voice over work as well. So you managed to take the microphone with you. So it wasn't going to be gone completely. Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:27:13 Right? That's true. I was thinking about long term in a lot of different ways. So like, what am I going to be doing in 20 years? And of course there's uncertainty about what the radio industry is going to look like in 20 years. Nobody really knows what it's going to look like in 20 years. So my thinking at the time was that if I could transfer out of the radio industry into this it would make me the versatility is what it would give me, right? Heck, I could do marketing for a bank, I could do marketing for a sports team and in some respects that's true. But I look back on it now and I go, yeah, but I would never want to work for a bank. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:27:47 And then get picked up at Coleman Insights. So how did you come into contact with this where you get to work with radio stations again and bring all your skill set right to Coleman Insights? Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:27:57 Mostly I was fortunate to be living in the place where they were headquartered. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:28:01 That's a big advantage. Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:28:04 And so I was able to make some personal connections at the firm and over time just kind of make that networking, make those relationships with company that I admired my entire career, because Coleman was always around my entire career, although I'd never worked with them directly. I had just known their reputation and the work that they've done through others and through those connections. When something became available and they started hiring a layer of associate consultants, I applied. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:28:30 What were some of the early projects you worked on? And I'm asking this because here you are, you get to work with Coleman insights. I'm kind of wondering what those starter projects are. Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:28:39 One of the coolest things was that everybody at Coleman was so willing to teach. And when you're new to you're coming from a radio background and not a research background. Even though I had a level of understanding of research, it wasn't from the research side. I was on the radio side. So there's a lot to learn from the research side in tools you're using in interpreting data and how to deliver the data, like layer after layer, that they have to teach you. And everybody was willing to teach, which I found incredible. And to answer your question, in the beginning as an associate consultant, it was always behind the scenes stuff for other senior consultants. Most of the stuff that I was doing was for John Boyne, and John has a lot of huge clients. And the really neat thing was that I got to work on projects for stations that I grew up listening to or even worked at. So, for example, KMel in San Francisco, which was down the hall from we've done projects for It's now, Star 103, but we did projects in my old station, K101. We worked with Z100 in New York, and then we even went through the experience of doing a project for my old station in Detroit. So it always this weird full circle thing comes back on a fairly regular basis, and I have to laugh at it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:29:56 What are radio stations asking for these days? I think back 20 years, there was a lot of it was the music and the perception and are we too hard? Is this too soft? Is our morning show too blue? What are they asking for today? Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:30:10 There's a lot of that same type of stuff. I mean, you want to know how deep your images are and what the opportunities are. The music tastes, certainly. Although we're going through a very strange period in contemporary music right now where things are fairly stagnant, it can change, and you have to be on top of those changes and seeing where things fit together. I mean, for example, 90s music is something that really wasn't compatible with a number of other eras for some time. And now you're seeing both the popularity of some of these 90s sounds and also being more compatible with other sounds. Rock is seeing that right where classic rock is doing some of the shift for a while. It's like, no, you can't play Led Zeppelin with Nirvana, or it's really risky to do. So now you start to see it becoming less risky. So you're learning about some of those things with music and how it plays in your market. You're learning about the images and the personalities and features, all that stuff you've always asked. And then there's more interest these days about media usage habits in themselves and how much time people are spending with podcasting or how they're using you on streaming and that kind of stuff and trending it and seeing how that shakes out. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:31:17 Yeah, I was thinking one of the questions we always used to have as well, when people leave our station, where are they going? We could see some of that in the ratings. Are they going to the other rock station, a classic rock station? But today, when you leave radio altogether, where are they going? Where are our listeners going? Do you have any sort of insight to where they're going? Is it more music? Is it a podcast or is it social media? I mean, it could be any one of those things. Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:31:42 Yeah, there's not really a specific answer to that. But you're on point in that it's not just station to station. It's not just station to podcast. Today's listener, if you really think about how they're and I talked about this when we did a presentation at Morning Show Boot Camp a couple of weeks ago, I made exactly that point where we got to stop looking at each other as morning show versus morning show, like Radio Morning Show versus Radio Morning Show. Right. My kid listens to or watches a morning show on YouTube every single morning. And so when that consumer is thinking about what to listen to in the morning or throughout the day, where it used to be, I'm just going to go to this station or this station. To your point, maybe they do The Daily or there's a couple of other favorite podcasts that they like to listen to. Or there's Sirius XM and there are two favorite channels there, or the two or three podcasts they're thinking about. It preponderance of choices is pretty staggering. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:32:36 I kind of thought back in 2013 when these other audio formats began to infringe on radio, I thought maybe radio should get together and just support radio and get people to listen to the radio and teach them to flick between five and six stations in order to stay on the Medium and International Podcast Day. I see that's coming up and podcasters are all together. Do you think radio can get a little closer together to promote the Medium? Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:33:01 I wish they would, because it does. It seems like every other medium is doing a better job of that. It's so important, and especially like in the blog that I wrote last week. There was a comedian in Canada, right, who lives in Toronto, Kurtis Connor, and he recently played a show in Our Town. And my 19 year old son, who I mentioned earlier, is a huge fan of Kurtis. And Kurtis mentions during the show that he listens to radio. He talks about consuming news. He listens to radio. And the audience booze him, which I thought was bizarre. Like, what do you mean they're booing the word radio? Like, okay, if you ask Gen Z's, do you listen to radio? Sure. Do leslie and Radio. Yes. Are they ambivalent about radio? Sure, I get that. But, like, negative about radio. What's that all about? And I thought that was really strange. And he talked about his favorite station, Boom in Toronto, and he talked about why he loves Radio and some of the reasons why. And it was interesting because it was the opposite of this paradox of choice that we create anxiety with ourselves because we have so many choices and radio makes it easy. We're going to play this for you. We've curated it for you, and we're going to listen. And I thought that's something that radio really needs to think about promoting rather than just the fact that it's free. Yeah, that's great. Everyone knows that it's got a commercial problem, but radio is really good at creating entertainment for people and maybe needs to capitalize on that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:34:23 So that's really strange that that happened. So the first thing that comes to mind is, here's a generation, they are booing a free product. Eric Samuels, when I worked at the Baron Edmonton, he was the program director, and I said, you know, this person's complaining about something. He goes, Isn't it amazing that they're complaining about something they get for free? And I had to think about that for a second. They picked up the phone to call. But here's a generation who's booing something that maybe they don't use. But the other thing that goes through my mind is that perhaps market specific, that Raleigh just doesn't have enough radio stations that is properly serving that demographic. Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:34:59 That's an interesting point. Raleigh is an underrated market. It lost its last alternative station in the last year. So, I mean, there may be something to that, but I think there's also a need to kind of going back to your point about educating people about radio and making radio a giant PR campaign. How are you going to get younger listeners to listen to radio if you don't educate them and change their perceptions about radio, what radio offers and how to get it? Yeah. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:35:26 And you mentioned in that blog, by the way, that Boom is your client. And one of the things they are really good about is because everybody plays the music, but they'll play the music, and they'll make me feel like I'm listening to the music again for the first time, whether it's the behind the vinyl or the stories that they tell or the personalities. It could very simply be Stu Jeffries in the Morning, who a lot of Canadians watched on television with good rocking tonight. The station has this nice feel. I love the branding. Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:35:53 Green. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:35:54 Green makes me feel good. Green is their color at Boom. So, yeah, I think there's a lot that goes into a radio station. So I too, enjoy that station and. Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:36:02 I think you make a really good point. And I think that it used to be it seems like and maybe this is when Ppm first came out and everyone over corrected and said, every talk break has got to be short. And what do you mean? You're talking about the music and giving us history and stuff. And now I think that it's coming back around a little bit. We recognize that content is really important and it doesn't need to be just relegated to AAA stations which kind of had this ownership of that position. But I think that opportunity to be this vessel for listeners of music and giving them that experience of not just listening to it, but why it's so great to listen to and making them feel, making them engaged, helping their mood, that is what they're looking for, but we're not always providing it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:36:47 Whenever a station goes away, like a WAAF, I say to myself, those people who love and listen to that station, who listen to Mistress Carrie, they are not coming back. They are not coming back to radio at all. You completely disenfranchised people from ever coming back to the medium. And I know you mentioned station that went away in Raleigh, but I think sometimes these branding changes where we're just going to throw the format out, we're going to throw up the call letters and we're going to call it something completely new, does a lot more damage than it really does. Help your brand. Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:37:18 We like to say that images are like icebergs. They're slow to develop, slow to erode. And when you have a brand like that, with years of heritage that's built up, sometimes it can be a bad thing because you can have some negative baggage. But at the same time, it just takes so long to build a brand and it can sometimes be really frustrating and tragic when a brand goes away. I mean, I remember growing up in San Francisco listening to K Fog, and that station was, in its day, so iconic and brought these huge shows to town and they had this Foghorn that was the audio signature. I joined the Fog Heads, which was the club, and they used to send me an actual CD in the mail for being a Fog Head. Even when I moved to Detroit, they were still sending me a CD, which you could argue now, maybe that wasn't the greatest ROI to be sending people in Detroit CDs, but the point is, they had such a deep connection to their listeners and it was a tough one, right? Because Ppm made that station really challenging because it couldn't keep up musically. And they did great in Diary, but moment by moment, it was really hard for them. But gosh, from a brand standpoint, I thought they did it as well as anybody back in the day. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:38:28 So I would ask you to write an essay about what you did this summer, but instead I'll just ask you, and we can put it on the podcast here, and that's tell me a little bit about Morning Show boot Camp, because a lot of people rave about it and what they get out of it, people paying attention. And it seems to be a very positive vibe in the room. So what did you see in here? Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:38:47 I found it to be incredibly refreshing. I love the fact that it is completely focused on talent. I mean, you have program directors there as well, and people involved in that. But it's mostly talent, mostly Morning Show, although you have some from other day parts as well. But I just found it skewed a little bit young, which I loved. And there was an immense desire to learn. I mean, immense. And so when we did our presentation, sam Milkman and I did the urgency of branding, there was this line of people that just came up and talked to us that wanted to follow up and ask more questions. And then I got some emails afterwards, some connections on social, and that made me feel great about this talent in the industry that wants to make themselves better and make the medium better. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:39:34 Well, I'll tell you right now what my number one wish is for radio, and I'm writing this down. And that's at every radio company, whether you have one station or hundreds of stations, you need to have a director of Audio Innovation and Learning, because I love that I'm seeing neither at any radio station. So the fact that James Cridland had to stand up on a stage and tell people about the program to script and there was just way too many ooze and odds at Canadian Music Week. And when you tell me that there's radio talent that are so eager to learn means they're not being taught and possibly not getting enough feedback. And I think Fred Jacobs research has shown that there's quite a disconnect between management and talent, and they're itching for feedback and they're itching to learn. And I think that proves that what you just mentioned, I was really upset. Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:40:21 Actually, when Fred showed that I was in his presentation. And there was that slide as the one that stuck with me, was the amount of talent that said that they get coached. Like, how many times do you get air checked? And the percentage of jocks that never get air checked, or once a month or once a year. That's terrible. And I understand that a lot of that comes from the fact that you have programmers that are overstretched and wearing a lot of hats, for sure, but coaching your talent, there's few things as important. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:40:47 Tell me about your time in Dallas. The podcast movement. Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:40:50 Podcast movement is always fun. In the past, we've done presentations. We were at an early edition of Podcast Movement where we presented the results of a couple of studies that we did with Iheart, the Ben and Ashley I podcast, which is about the Bachelor and bachelorette Universe and business unusual with Barbara Corcoran from Shark Tank. And in that case we were doing what's called Immediate EKG Deep Dive Study, which is a content testing tool that we use where we're looking at content minute by minute and measuring it and then we're asking questions afterwards. Why did you rate it that way? So you can see that kind of up and down of the graphs as somebody likes something or doesn't like something. So we were able to present that there. And we've done presentations at Podcast Movement almost every year. This time was the first time in a while we didn't do a presentation. We were a sponsor, but this time it was really more about meeting people, doing the networking and taking it all in. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:41:43 And one of the things that you and I discussed over drinks. So 70% of our conversation revolves around the upcoming Buffalo Bill season, but the remaining 30% of the conversation. We talked about radio stations that you work with, but it's not just radio stations that you're working with anymore. You're going outside now into other areas. Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:42:02 That's true. We have some work in streaming and I have some podcasting clients, and it's not just one is a network, for example, that's doing research on both the network themselves and on some specific shows, which is really great to see. That's the kind of thing that as we look at the data available to podcasters, I think there are a lot of radio companies that would kill for the amount of tools that are available in podcasting. Right. You can find out how many listeners you have and you can find out who's leaving and you're keeping per show. All that kind of stuff is out there. But where radio has gone and research is a deeper level to understand how listeners really feel about your talent and your personalities and how they feel about the shows and the whys behind it and more qualitative research behind it. And so I think that there's some of that desire now. We're starting to see it in podcasting as medium matures, which is great. So we're doing some work with the network, we're also doing some work with the hosting platform. So it's a natural progression from radio because there are audio brands. We still see ourselves in that audio universe, but it's exciting. I think there's a lot of upside, particularly in podcasting, to understand their listeners behaviors. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:43:14 Yeah, so podcasters are in basements small places. Often the staff are across the country and they have to send in their audio. It's not like a physical radio station in a market that gets well established. When we're trying to think about perceptions of a podcast, it's tough to reach out to certain listeners to try to get their feedback. And if it were about a podcast network, it's equally hard. How do we measure about, let's say, the Sound Off media company about what people think about it? Well, they probably don't think about it, but they're probably listening to the podcast anyway that we're producing. So it's a different form of work altogether than, say, radio. Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:43:51 It's a very different form of work, particularly because, to your point, right, most podcasts aren't at a level on a national basis that you can just survey them the way that you do radio. You go into a market, radio station is hundreds of thousands of listeners in King. You know that you can go out there in the market and with an incidence rate of ten to 15%, you're going to be able to find people that listen to that radio station that you're studying, or at least radio stations within the universe that you want to talk to. You can't just take a podcast, go out and make calls because you spend a little too much money trying to find people listening to that podcast. And some of it in podcasting then is using databases and finding other ways to reach those people. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:44:33 Yeah, if you ask people what they listen to for a podcast, they'll say, I listened to Joe Rogan, I listened to something else that you have heard of, and then they're going to list off eight podcasts you have not heard of, right? Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:44:44 Absolutely. But database is not the best way to go in a lot of research. We're not a huge fan of doing database research in many situations because you don't want to just preach to the choir, right? You want to find out who the ancillary people are that you can get to listen to more. But like I said, it's a little bit trickier in podcasting. But at the same time, there's an opportunity to go deeper than just a simple survey monkey survey, which serves its purpose and is great, but you want to go deeper than that to really find out about how to optimize your show and make it better. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:45:17 Now, you tell me, as I've got a survey monkey that I'm just about to put out. It might be Google Forms, I just haven't figured out how to work either of them yet. Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:45:25 But you should be doing that, right? And I encourage every brand, every show. You can't do a big study all the time, certainly, but you need to be talking to your listeners on a regular basis. Like, for example, Starbucks. Every time that I play one of their goofy games on their app, they take the opportunity to ask me some questions and I think that's great. There's this interest in gathering information from your consumers on a regular basis. You should take it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:45:51 I'm feeling fatigued from some of those. Is that my age? Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:45:54 No, there is too much of it. I don't disagree with that. And especially like, if it comes to your email, it's tough because Google or whatever email service they're using, they're filtering it out, they're putting it in promotions, it's going into the junk. You have to find some way to stick out. I would agree with that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:46:11 What podcast app do you use to listen to podcasts? Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:46:14 Spotify. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:46:15 Just the one? Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:46:16 Yeah, typically I do, and that tends to be just because when I'm streaming, I tend to be in the Spotify universe. I pay for the premium service, I'm already in there, and so I'm saving my favorites and it makes it easy for me, and so that tends to be where I listen to them. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:46:34 What show have you been following or subscribed to the Longest? Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:46:38 The Longest? That's a good question. The one I've listened to the Longest is one of Todd Cochrane's shows, actually about podcasting. The shows that I'm listening to the most right now are Smarter and Fly on the Wall with David Spade and Dana Carvey. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:46:55 So I have Dynamic Audio insertion as being one of my biggest takeaways from podcast movement. What was your biggest takeaway? Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:47:03 Honestly, I don't really have a big takeaway from that. What's yours? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:47:07 Just that the podcasting space needs to pay attention to programmatic and really make it so that the ads flowing seamlessly. So much of it is done so poorly. Different levels, not making a seamless transition to get people in and out of the ads. There was a little bit of a nice takeaway from Sounds profitable when it came to the difference between Announcer Red and Host Red ads. Host Red Ads, of course, continue to be very strong in that sense, and we have to tidy that up. And a lot of people say, oh, there's too many commercials in podcasting. But I mean, listen, every research project you've done for Radio that comes back, there's too many commercials for everything. But I'm not sure how to handle it. If you're a company like I heart, that will put those two podcasts that you mentioned, they promote those ad nauseum. They treat some podcasts like stop sets and they'll put three commercials in there and they will be promos. And that's a lot for the listener, I think, to digest. And I think that's how we get that perception of too many commercials. So again, it's a good thing that we're promoting podcasts. It's a bad thing because people do interpret those as commercials. Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:48:09 I think you make a really good point, and I think that's something that Radio has struggled with for some time, for sure, with ad insertion. And like you said, the clunky experience going from the terrestrial feed into feed of spots and then going back in. That's something that is terrible sometimes to listen to. And you're right. The listening experience has got to be better. And then I would say also about the number of commercials. I think you make a great point, too, because that is a huge issue for radio. And if you think about that, like, the older you are, the more you've just been used to it your whole life, listening to a lot of commercials on radio. So maybe you're just sort of attuned to it. But if you're younger and you haven't had to deal with it, you've had the luxury of listening to a streaming service or Sirius XM or something where you don't have to have commercials to your point. Like, now you look at radio and it's like radio equals 16 minutes of commercials an hour. That's a problem. And podcasting does have to be very careful not to get into that box. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:49:08 I'll take one bold prediction. You can make it for podcasting or radio. Do you have one something that you see coming into 2023 that you go, that might be a thing. Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:49:19 I think that we're going to see some fresh new talent come around in the next year that's going to break into the radio industry that's going to break into podcasting. I think that YouTube is this massive trove of talent that has been kind of untapped. And there is a huge listener base for so many of these people that are making a living as comedians. They're making a living on doing a show on YouTube. And yeah, they're monetizing it there. But the problem is their brand isn't big enough. They're not en masse, so they don't have the reach of radio or the opportunity to get into big podcast network. And so I think that what you're going to see is some of these names that are kind of bubbling under with big followings are going to get much more big mass followings by hopping onto radio with podcasting, which basically means. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:50:12 To that crowd that you saw in Raleigh in your Face, right? Exactly. One more prediction. How will the Buffalo Bills do this year? Jay Nachlis (Guest) 00:50:20 It's got to be the Super Bowl, right? Super bowl or bust. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:50:24 Go Bills. Thanks Jay! Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:50:25 The the Sound Off podcast. Written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski. Social Media by Courtney Krebsbach Another great creation from the the Soundoff media company. There's always more@soundoffpodcast.com.

We last spoke to Dervla Trainor back in 2019. She and Tanya Buchanan had just completed their second V.O. North conference, and it was getting to that point where the event was creating FOMO (Fear of Missing Out) for people in the Voice over community. Sadly, the pandemic caused a disruption to that momentum with 2020 being cancelled, and 2021 shifted online. However, the event is back and better than ever September 16-18 at the Pantages Hotel in Toronto. Check out the lineup and show here. In this episode, Dervla speaks to us about the genesis of the event, how she has steered her way through the voiceover business during the pandemic, and what we can expect in Toronto at Canada's premiere Voiceover event. We also briefly discussed some of the newer problems in the business with the emergence of Artificial intelligence, pricing and keeping control on where your voice goes. There are also the most useful of session involving marketing, search engine optimization and CRM's. The conference is open to beginners and experts alike. While not advertised as such, there is a lot of mentoring that takes places at V.O. North. We also talked about Bev Standing's unique story which was recently featured on the podcast Twenty Thousand Hertz Transcription: Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:00:01 The Sound Off podcast. The podcast about broadcast with Matt Cundill.... starts now. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:10 It was back in late 2019 when we had Dervla Trainor on this show to talk about V.O. North, the premier Voiceover conference in Canada. Along with Tanya Buchanan, who owns TADA Voiceworks, a voiceover agency in Toronto, they've spearheaded a conference to create a Voiceover community for Canadians and beyond. Then the pandemic hit in 2020 got shelves. They did an online version in 2021, and this year it's back September 16 to 18. The in person event resumes at the Pentagon Hotel in Toronto. If you are starting out in Voiceover, this is for you. There are lots of people I met in 2018 and 2019 who are just starting out in Voiceover and they've now turned it into a successful business and career for themselves. And if you're already in Voiceover and looking to up your game, this is also for you. It's a tremendous networking event. In the meantime, Dervla Trainer joins me from Toronto to talk about all things Voiceover. Dervla (Guest) 00:01:09 This week, we are returning to the scene of the crime. So back it was, November of 2019, I had the chance to attend Vo North, and we brought Durville Trainer onto the podcast and we talked about Vo North FOMO, and that was sort of like the fear of missing out on what was going to be just a fantastic weekend. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:30 Via north is back again. And so I thought it would be a great time to bring her back and talk again with Serverless Trainer. Hi. Dervla Trainor (Guest) 00:01:36 Hi. Thanks for you. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:38 It's good to see you again. Dervla Trainor (Guest) 00:01:40 Yeah, you too. It's been a while. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:42 Well, I mean, November 2019, we had you on the podcast and we had just come off the second successful Vo North event, and I think you and Teddy Buchanan, we're really on to something. And then all of a sudden we're not far off from Covet. And so this is kind of a roundabout way to sort of say, what have you been doing throughout Kova to really sort of steer Veo North through the pandemic? Dervla Trainor (Guest) 00:02:07 So we were fully planning to go ahead with 2020 north, and we had the venue picked out, we have the contract signed, everything. We had started advertising it and then coveted. So we made the decision to go to do that year online. And we rebranded as Violence Interactive because it was online and we still use the venue for our tech team, so everyone was socially distanced. So we had three large rooms where everyone was spread out, but we had a team still of about twelve people just helping behind the scenes we did online and it was great. We really wanted to keep it again as interactive as possible because we understood that online is just not the same as in person. So we kept a zoom room open the entire conference weekend, and we called it the Lounge. So you can just pop on anytime and see who else is there and just have a chit chat with someone. We had exhibitors we could pop on and talk to them too. We kept all of the sessions meeting style, and we really encourage people in advance. Like we let them know you're going to be on camera and ask questions, get involved. And then right after the programming ended on Saturday, then we had a Zoom Trivia night where people again interactive. And then we had what do we call it? It was kind of speed networking. So we throw randomized people into rooms of four or five people for a certain like a few minutes. So they chitchat and then they pop out and then they get thrown into a room with other people. So enough people that the conversation kept going. It wasn't too small, but I had one woman, she said I don't know if she'll want me to say her name, but she said at the start of the weekend, on Saturday morning, I told my husband I'm just going to pop on for a minute, for like an hour or so. And she said, Sunday afternoon came and we're at the closing ceremony. She's like, my husband's complaining because I didn't leave the computer the whole time because there was just so much going on. So it's good. But at the core of the owner, why it started to begin with was yes, like for people to learn and be able to grow their voice over business, but to bring the community together. So in 2021, we decided just to take a break. And now we're back this year with in person only going back to our roots. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:04:25 I, for one like that. And by the way, a nice shout out to your people, your tech people, because I was doing, I think, a number of sessions with you guys and they said your lighting is terrible. And by terrible meant it only lit up half my face. So this sort of forced me to move the ring light to the center now. And so I've been doing much better. Dervla Trainor (Guest) 00:04:44 Great. You've got a fully lit face. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:04:47 I know. And by the way, this is the first time I've done a session with glasses because I can no longer see anything anymore. So some people are wondering, who's this guy? And I just got these glasses on now. Dervla Trainor (Guest) 00:04:55 Well, the ring light placement, I mean, that's key. And most people that have glasses, they get the reflection. But yours is up. It must be up just high enough. You got it down. I'm impressed, Matt. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:05:05 Well, I've had two and a half years to get this right, and now I think we've got it right. And congratulations, by the way, for coming back and sticking with the community and making it a full in person session. It's going to be taking place September 16 through the 18th. And off the top of your mind, what are you looking forward to the Most at your own event? Dervla Trainor (Guest) 00:05:27 Well, I mean, seeing everyone is going to be great. I love the opening ceremonies. We try to make it fun and it really kind of sets the tone for the rest of the weekend. And it's everyone in the one room. And then we've got a Saturday night industry mixer with a special cocktail. It's sponsored by Badalgo. So Badalgo is creating its own cocktail. And we'll have appetizers and such, but that should be fun too. It's offsite. We've never done that before. And then just the panels, the breakouts, the one on one. Something I'm really proud of is the fact that we have one on one. So you can schedule a time to sit with a casting director or an agent, like uninterrupted. So I feel like people are always really happy after they've done those. I just love when people end the weekend. They're like, oh my God, I can't believe how much value I got out of that. Because that's really why we do it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:06:20 How's your voiceover business been going for the last couple of years? Through the pandemic? Because I know for a lot of people, it changed. There's people who got into it. There's also some people who had to change. I remember March 2020, there was a lot of people who had never had a home studio. Now, I know you have a home studio and I have one, but have you seen any sort of discernible changes in the last couple of years? Dervla Trainor (Guest) 00:06:41 There were a couple things that so I think at the beginning, a lot of voice talent who have been doing this for a while might have been a bit nervous because a lot of actors who were now out of work because there isn't much on camera anymore, they jumped into voiceover. But I think what happened really was the voice actors who have been recording from home all along, we had those editing skills, we had the proper setup, so it affected business a little bit, but not too much. The style of voiceover at the very beginning, it was, we're in this together and very emotive and more nurturing voice. And I can sound a little young, but I found that the style of voice, I wasn't booking as much, but that's turned around now, so not too much. No. I think overall, the voiceover industry is shifting. I initially got all most of my success from online casting sites. I did quite well. But I think there has been an oversaturation of that market in the past few years. So there's a lot more competition. So, yeah, it's shifting, but just where the work comes from has changed. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:07:47 So if you're listening to this right now, one of the things that Vo North, I think, really offers us an opportunity to put a face to the people. Because so often people are working online, they're working at home. And you've mentioned a couple of things so you mentioned casting, for instance. And so I think back to someone I think is also going to be attending is Liz Atherton, who's going to be yeah. And so you'll never get a better opportunity to meet Liz. You mentioned Bodalgo, which is a company that is based in Europe, but in the past I've had a chance to meet Armin and Armin and I have sat down and he's very open and we talk and he even showed a little podcaster trick. And I will put this into the show notes and that's Bodalgo call. You can actually record a podcast between two people and it's free now. I don't know if he still offers it. I believe he does, yeah. So this is, I think, one of the real benefits. Unless I could break out and we can go over every single session. That's ridiculous. You can just go on to the website and see that. But you do have an editing session by the way. I see expedite the editing. So the tips and facts are going to be saving you time. Dervla Trainor (Guest) 00:08:55 Well, I mean, we try to basically cover every single aspect of a voice actors career, right? From editing, to finding your own clients, to technique, to marketing yourself, all that stuff, to finding an agent, to self direction. Yeah, the editing, I've learned little tips and tricks here and there that have just you learn at once and it just completely changes how your efficiency rate. So it's not the most glamorous talk editing, but it can definitely be useful. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:09:33 Everything adds up. You've even got one here for voice health. So I'll ask you here, what do you do for voice health? Dervla Trainor (Guest) 00:09:41 I've always had a lot of problems with voice. Actually my voice, I was just telling someone today I have a very delicate voice. So I own a steamer and I think if you're even like in radio as well, I mean, if you're using your voice, I think it's like a little Vic steamer and I'll steam. Just try to stay hydrated. That really helps. Late night partying does not usually help. Even I noticed that if I have some wine the night before, there's something in wine where it can congest you a little bit. So if you are having a drink or two, there's just a lot just depending on how much sleep I got the night before, there's a lot of things that affect vocal health. So I'm actually looking forward to sitting in on that session to help so I can learn what are the best ways to maintain so that I sound the same. Because I sound very different in the morning, afternoon and evening, but sometimes day to day I sound different too. And it's been a bit of a struggle but like a learning curve throughout my career to try and figure out what is it that keeps me in that voice range and what affects it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:10:43 So there's another podcast that's come out. Episode 20000 Hz bev standing. It has made an appearance on the podcast and this is sort of two fold here that I'm going to mention here when it comes to bev because you have a session at this, which I think is very important and it's going to be very popular and I see that you've allotted over an hour to it. And that's AI pricing and protecting your voice in the Wild West. Westworld of Voiceover. Dervla Trainor (Guest) 00:11:05 I love creating the names. Do you know Westworld? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:11:09 No. Dervla Trainor (Guest) 00:11:10 It's quite a popular TV show. So I said The Wild Wild West World of Vo because it's got a cowboy themed element sort of thing. Anyway, AI is a hot topic right now and not a lot of people know much about it. So it was a bit of a challenge finding speakers for that because we wanted people who do know who are tapped into that and because it is such a Wild Wild West right now, there aren't a lot of experts, but we did find them and I'm also looking forward to that panel just to learn where the direction it's going in. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:11:51 I would have no idea. In fact, sometimes I'll get an AI job. I won't even take it or acknowledge it because I'm afraid of where it will go. First of all, it's hard to price. And then the second thing is how do I know this isn't going to wind up somewhere that I'm not going. Dervla Trainor (Guest) 00:12:05 To be able to hear the voice of TikTok? They just ripped her voice off. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:12:09 Yeah, that's now a podcast episode from 20,000 show Notes are in. The Show Notes. I'll connect you to that if you want to listen. It's a 20 minutes listen and it's not only an interesting listen, it is a very important lesson for people in voiceover and how your voice is used. Tell me about getting together with Contagious Hotel. Dervla Trainor (Guest) 00:12:41 It's great. So the last venue we were in was lovely and it had a ton of personality, but we wanted somewhere that still has that boutique vibe but is much more suited to holding a conference. So we're taking up the entire third floor, which is the conference floor. The bedrooms are beautiful. They're nice, big, spacious, bright, newly renovated. And Christina, our contact there, has been lovely to work with. We wanted it downtown because the people are coming in from out of town. A lot of these conferences, you fly in from the airport, you go to a hotel right by the airport. So you've come all this way to a different city that you've never been to and you're not even seeing the city. Whereas we're right by Young Dundas Square, which is the equivalent of Times Square and there's lots happening and that's why we're having the industry mixer off site as well in Kensington Market, which is pretty legendary in itself because we want to bring those people outside of the conference and get to experience Toronto. So we thought it was a very fitting location. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:13:38 So you have some of the standard panels that I think we've seen every year, but things do evolve. So I'm thinking about CRMs and I'm thinking about SEO. And I'm thinking about websites. So some of these things do come up every year. But tell me a little bit about some of the you have these intensives and I'm going to guess that the intensives are all sold out anyway, but just make me excited anyways. Dervla Trainor (Guest) 00:13:58 Yeah, well, we have some spots left. Three are sold out. One of them only has one spot left and then there's two that we still have availability. So intensive are three hour sessions and they're twelve people per class because we want to keep it intimate, very hands on. It's you with the person leading the intensive and eleven other colleagues. And in past years we've run it in line with the conference, but this year we've actually dedicated a whole separate day to the intensive so that people it is a bit of an extra ticket price, but it's because that's all going to the speaker. We're flying these people in specifically for the intensive, so that's why it's an additional cost and we're doing it the day before so that you don't have to miss any of the regular conference programming. We've got everything from Vo 101, which is I think going to be so invaluable if there's people coming to the conference who are just new to voiceover. This is intended to give you just a full wrap your head around the foundations of voiceover, so that when you come into the weekend, you're going to get even more value from the weekend because all these terms, all these little things that you might not have known before, you're already going to know them. So when someone tells you about something, you already understand what they're talking about so you can get more value out of it. We have Narrating Audiobooks, we have this self direction intensive, but that's sold out. They're great. It's a little bit of an add on price, but I just think they're so invaluable to your overall conference experience and they just bring the whole thing to the next level. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:15:38 So I'm seeing a lot of the companies and your sponsors come to this, are a number of people that I've worked with in the past. And it kind of gets me a little bit excited when I see companies like Isotope and I finally learned how to use their RX products to take all the clicks out of my mouth and to take the noise out of the room and to do all sorts of extra things. Thinking about ear blowing audio productions. Say hi to Eric. Eric part of the bill is Mafia and he makes incredible demos. For instance, I know Uncle Roy is there. Uncle Roy. Just seeing Uncle Roy. Dervla Trainor (Guest) 00:16:11 He's our tech director. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:16:13 Yeah, exactly. So if you work in voiceover, there's just so many people here that are coming together for this. Dervla Trainor (Guest) 00:16:21 Oh, I was going to say, yeah, we have 55 speakers and we're flying people in from literally all over the world for this. Tanya mostly curates the speakers and because she's an agent, she has access to all these people that typical voice actors wouldn't. We don't populate our panels with people who are trying to sell their goods. We specifically cherry pick people who might not normally come to conferences because they don't have anything to gain from it, but because they know Tanya, she's like, come on, you are so great at this. And a lot of the times they're like, okay, yes. Because they just want to get back to the community. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:16:55 Yeah. I think it's really important to point out that I think I've never been pitched. I think that was the thing that surprised me the first time I went and the second time and when we did the online thing together is there's no pitching. There's nothing really to pitch anyway because it's really a community and trying to I think working together has really been sort of the mantra of the business. Dervla Trainor (Guest) 00:17:14 Yeah. Just we want people who are the top of their game in whatever field they're speaking on and that they're genuinely there to give back, not to sell a service. But on the other hand, our sponsors who do have services that target voice actors, we're also very particular in who we partner up with. So we actually stand behind each and every one of them and we think that what they do, sell product or service is great. We wouldn't be anywhere without the sponsors. Thank you. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:17:45 I do notice that you have a session involving actor. And listen, we see this all the time online. Should I join ACTRA or SAG or anything like that? So you're also going to be answering questions about how to maybe maneuver your way towards the union and maybe taking a little bit of an exit in your career or taking a different pathway. Dervla Trainor (Guest) 00:18:05 And whether that's right for you, depending on what type of voiceover you want to do. The union does or does not make sense. If you want to do animation, absolutely. The union, I would say personally, just my opinion would be the way to go. But if you want to do commercial explainer videos, elearning, all that stuff, there's so much nonunion work out there, especially in elearning in the explainer videos. I would almost argue that there's more nonunion work. So again, just my opinion, not fact, but this is what I believe at least. But that's what that panels there to address. Right? What do you get from joining the union? Why is it a good idea or why is it maybe not right for you? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:18:49 We got deep into the weeds in this conversation. We both do voiceover. But if you're thinking about doing this as a career or just you started it, you bought a microphone, you want to level up or maybe you haven't even started it at all. I think it's important to point out that violence is a great place to start, just to come and see everybody and ask questions, because everybody there is very giving of their time and their knowledge and sharing, and not just the people are going to be on stage, but just other voice talent in the room. Dervla Trainor (Guest) 00:19:16 Absolutely. The reason why I started it obviously bring the community together in a format where they can learn, but because I've gotten so much from voice conferences. And it doesn't matter what level you're at, because where you're at, you'll just absorb what information brings you to the next step, what information that you understand, right? So if you're very experienced, you'll understand more nuances in the conversation. If you're newer, you're still going to get a ton of value. You're going to learn what to do next. I think conferences, you just get so much, even if it just gives you a motivational boost and you book one more job that you wouldn't have booked otherwise, that pays it off right? There the price of the ticket. So that's how I look at it, too. I mean, I always learn so much, but if at the very least it just motivates you to do three more auditions or something and you book one and there you go, at least you broke even and you met a bunch of really great people because the voiceover industry is super friendly. Everyone's helpful. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:20:14 Dervla, thanks so much for taking time out of this holiday weekend to talk about this. I'm going to assume, by the way, that I'm just to say, go to Vonorce.com and everything that you need to know is there, and off you go. And you can register and come see. Dervla Trainor (Guest) 00:20:28 You in less than two weeks. Looking forward to it. It's good. I'm very excited for this year. It's our last year for other reasons, but yeah. So I guess it's kind of now or never. It's the only one in Canada. No, sorry, it's the biggest one in Canada. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:20:45 Congratulations to you and Tanya for doing it. And Vo North is going to be taking place September 16 through the 18th and it's going to be awesome. Dervla Trainor (Guest) 00:20:53 Thanks for having me on. Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:20:54 The Sound Off podcast. Written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski. Social Media by Courtney Krebsbach Another great creation from the sound of the media company. There's always more @ soundoffpodcast.com.

This episode, versatility is the word of the day. Sam Cook is currently the host and executive producer of The Shot, a singer/songwriter competition show filmed in Toronto, but she's also spent time as a radio host, podcaster, VO artist, and on-screen with other TV networks like YTV. It should go without saying that most people don't begin their career on one of the biggest shows in television history, but that's exactly what Sam did. We talk to her about how a Canadian girl managed to land an internship on David Letterman in New York, and how she followed it up with getting a job at YTV by crashing her car in the parking lot. Certainly not a conventional start, but a roaring one nonetheless. As a bonus, check out the promo art for YTV's "Uh-Oh!" below for some great late 90's nostalgia featuring Sam. We also talk about how she began to fall in love with radio, and when she made the move to voiceover and teaching. Sam teaches On-Air Television at Mohawk College, and in the latter half of the episode, we dive into everything about teaching the hosts of tomorrow - including some of my rather strong opinions about entry-level radio jobs. To connect with Sam, you can follow her on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn and YouTube. Or, if you're considering her for any radio/voiceover positions, check out her website. Transcript: Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:00:01 The Sound Off podcast. The podcast about broadcast with Matt Cundill starts now. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:10 Sam Cook is, well, lots of things. Radio personality, TV host, podcaster voice actor, professor. At one time, she was also a Hamilton Tigercats cheerleader. This episode starts and finishes, though, at Mohawk College, where she's been graduating radio's future talent for more than a decade. In that time, she's seen the wants and needs between radio stations and future talent evolve. Sam is also a co-executive producer and host of The Shot, and she joins me along with her dog, who might chime in quietly from her home in Hamilton. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:10 So let me get this straight. You interned with David Letterman. Sam Cook (Guest) 00:00:49 That is 100% accurate. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:53 How did this happen? Sam Cook (Guest) 00:00:55 The story is amazing. It was just pure passion and pure getting out there and banging on doors. So what had happened was I knew I needed to do an internship for my third year of television broadcasting at Mohawk College. And everybody was saying, well, I'm going to Chch ch in Hamilton. I'm going to cable 14. And I thought, well, there's nothing left for me. And I had done a lot of volunteering at Much Music and City TV, and I thought, I want to do something, I just don't know what it is. And one night I was watching The Late Show with David Letterman and thought, that's where I want to go. So I started getting a hold of the person that's in charge of hiring the interns at The Late Show with David Letterman. And I kept getting told, no, you're Canadian. We don't have Canadians here. And it was extremely frustrating. So what I decided to do was every month I decided to send them a resume. Not through the email, through the mail mail. And every single month, I would do a unique resume, whatever. I'd make it really creative. And finally, after months and months of trying, they called and they just said, hey, if you can make it here in 48 hours, we will grant you an interview. And I went, okay, got on the train, got to New York City, had an interview. I was one of 900 and ended up getting the internship. So it was pure going out there and pushing and pushing to sell myself, to say, hey, I can do this, not giving up. And that's really how it all started. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:02:30 So they said, we don't take Canadians yet. Paul Shaffer exactly. Sam Cook (Guest) 00:02:36 Well, I think the reason so I did ask why they don't accept Canadians, and the reason is because a lot of times they were using interns in their skits, but they could never use me in a skit because I was down there and I couldn't get paid as Canadian. So that part was a pain. And I did do a lot of stuff backstage and I did a lot of stuff with the audience. I just couldn't be in any of the skits that they had and just. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:02:59 To be clear, this was at CBS? Sam Cook (Guest) 00:03:01 Yes. Ed Sullivan building, CBS. Yeah. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:03:04 So did you get to meet David Letterman? Sam Cook (Guest) 00:03:06 So I did. My first experience with Dave was because it was something that I did wrong because I didn't know the rules. And before Dave does the show, he has his little ritual that he did. And when he was getting ready to do his show, you would kind of have to step back and let him walk by. And everybody knew, like, Dave's in the zone. Don't bug him. And of course, there's me. Hi, Dave. I'm Sam, your intern from Canada. And they were just like, what are you doing? So I got in a bit of trouble and was told, never do that again. And that was my first experience. He was great, though. I mean, he was great. He was cool. He kind of smiled and went along his way. But I learned the rules really fast of TV in New York City. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:03:53 What about some of the other people who are on the set there now? I've seen David Letterman at NBC, and I saw him at CBS. Some of the other characters like Larry Bud, melman or BIFF. Sam Cook (Guest) 00:04:06 Yeah, BIFF was there. Oh, I can't remember his name now. How horrible is that? He had the little cafe next door. I can't believe I can't remember his name right now. But we would go into that cafe all the time, and there was a lot of amazing characters. I met Howard Stern because he was just hanging out there on set. Ray Romano. I was in the elevator with Ray a bunch of times because he was just, I guess, starting his show, everybody loves Raymond, and it was part of the worldwide pants David Letterman's organization. So I did meet a ton of people just hanging out, like, coming to see Dave. And I would answer the phone sometimes, and it would be a celebrity on the other end. Richard Simmons comes to mind. Tony Danza comes to mind. And in fact, I have a really good Tony Danza story for you. I was answering the phone one day and I said, hey, late show. And he's like, oh, hey, it's Tony Danza for Dave. And I went, hey, it's Samantha. And he went, okay. And I'm like, no, it's Samantha. And he went, okay. And I went, okay, hold on. I'll transfer you to Dave. And then I hung up on him. So we called back again, and I'm like, hey, Tony, it's Savannah. I thought it was hilarious, and he was not amused. And then I hung up on him again for a second time, and the third time he called back, and he's like, Samantha? And I'm like, that's all I wanted. Click. And I put him through today, but I'm like, all right, we're good. So, yeah, it was really cool. He was mad at me, but I got him to say my name and that's? Who the boss of reference if nobody knows? If you're old like me, you'll understand you have to go look that up. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:05:43 Notoriously, his studio is kept at 60 degrees. Sam Cook (Guest) 00:05:48 Cold tape days, winter jackets sweating, hot outside, winter jackets for everybody. And do you know why they do that? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:05:56 Well, I was going to ask you, as a TV performer, can you relate to why it's done? Sam Cook (Guest) 00:06:00 Yeah, it's one of the reasons, because I asked, Why is it free and freezing? Like, we got to pay the bills. Here. What's going on? And they do it to keep the audience awake, because when you're hot, you want to close your rise, you want to relax, but when it's cold, you're like, yeah, let's keep warm by clapping. Yeah. So that's one of the reasons. It really helps the audience stay awake and helps the equipment and all the staff who are moving around so fast behind the scenes to get ready to keep them cool. So there's a lot of reasons to keep the studio cold. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:06:31 Well, you're off to a terrible start. That's a very shitty internship. I don't know where you go from here. Sam Cook (Guest) 00:06:38 Right? Best time of my life. It was the best time of my life. I have so many amazing stories from working there. I could literally do a whole podcast on just talking about my experiences there. It was phenomenal. And I always tell anybody who's young who's looking for an internship, don't just strive for your own backyard. You could go anywhere in the world. And I'm so happy that I didn't let anxiety or fear stop me from doing it, because it was terrifying. I lived in a really bad part of New York City where I had to pass some not so great areas, let's say, and just even navigating that as someone that moved there and having them come up to you and want to beat you up and how you have to protect yourself and what you have to say. So it taught me so much about myself and what I can do. So when I came back, I had no fear. When I came back to Canada, I was like, all right, what was your. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:07:33 Go to New York snack? Sam Cook (Guest) 00:07:35 So my go to for food in New York City, it has to be Chinese food. We would order from this Chinese food place all the time, and we could afford it. I lived with three other interns, and it was affordable for us to get Chinese food. But like I said, we lived in a not so great area. So the sad part is, a couple of times when the guy came to the door, he would say, please stop ordering from us, because he would be riding his bike to drop off the Chinese food. But they would sometimes I don't know why I'm laughing, this is horrible. But they would sometimes try to beat him up and steal his money, and he would say, Stop ordering. I don't want to come to your place anymore because they always take my money. But we continue to order from them. And he continued to show up, but after a while he started taking a different route. Chinese food was our go to, and because we were interns, grilled cheese was our favorite. We had to live on a budget like we had to. It was so expensive to live there. Yeah. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:08:31 If you don't know New York City, you probably don't get a good feel for ordering Chinese in New York. And you said you encountered Ray Romano. And I'm thinking about Phil Rosenthal who had a big hand in that and watching Phil and somebody feeds Phil these days. And I can think of two instances in two really popular TV series where Chinese food was either written into the script or parodied. And there was a Seinfeld episode when they're waiting for a table, but also from the delivery side, there was a Sex in the City episode where Miranda. Sam Cook (Guest) 00:08:59 Kept ordering yes, Chinese food and they knew her order. That's what happened to us. They would be like, oh, hey. And they would know our order because we would order the same thing all the time because it was in our budget and we ordered the same thing. That's hilarious that you pointed that out, because it's true. Because that's what we did. That was our life. And we would do the pizza. We would do pizza sometimes, but it was Chinese food almost all the time. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:09:24 And with the pizza, you have to fold the pizza to eat it. Sam Cook (Guest) 00:09:27 Yeah. You got to squish it and eat it. Yeah, for sure. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:09:30 You cannot explain this to people who just haven't lived New York, even though. Sam Cook (Guest) 00:09:35 I wasn't there for years and years and years. You learn quick. You learn quick what to expect. You learn quick how to live like a New Yorker. And best experience of my life. If someone offered me a job there tomorrow, I don't know how I could turn it down because it would just be so amazing to go back and live there. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:09:51 You also learned very quickly that Friends is full of shit. Sam Cook (Guest) 00:09:55 In which way? I'd like to hear what you mean. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:09:58 How can they afford that apartment on their salaries? Sam Cook (Guest) 00:10:01 Well, I know well, I think it was rent control for Monica. Right. So it was rent control from her grandma. So she was lucky. But yeah, some of those other apartments like Phoebe and that really beautiful apartment yeah, that was a bit rough. So I don't know how she did that because we had a very small apartment and it was very expensive with four of us living in their two bedroom apartment. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:10:23 What came next for you? Sam Cook (Guest) 00:10:25 Well, trying to get a job in New York City was rough because I was Canadian with no proper papers. So came home, got really depressed and one day woke up and said, no, my story doesn't end here. I'm going to start handing out resumes. And I did. I ended up printing off resumes and cover letters, and I would drive to Toronto, and I would go to City TV, much music, anywhere that had a TV station, and said, hey, I'm available. I have experience now. I'll do anything in the TV world. And one day, I was dropping off a resume at YTV in Toronto, and as I was pulling into the parking lot, I hit someone's car. I sneezed, and instead of hitting the brake, I hit the gas and went, bam. And of course, everybody came running out to see what happened, including a producer who said, this girl is a disaster. And I came back to pay the damage, and when I came back to pay the damage, a producer saw me and said, who are you? And I said, I'm the girl that hit that guy's car. Oh, yeah, we know you. And he said, what are you doing tomorrow? You want to come back and audition for the show we're doing? And I said, sure. So the next day I came back and I auditioned for a show called On YTV, and that's how I got my in. It was the best $1,000 I ever spent to get an audition. It was fantastic. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:11:48 And you were playing the character of Slammin' Sam? Sam Cook (Guest) 00:11:52 Slashin' Sam? Yeah. You're close. Slashin' Sam. And, yeah, they said, you got to be a referee. So I said, okay. And I had no clue what that meant. So I had a friend that worked at Foot Locker. They used to wear those jerseys with the stripes in it. So I borrowed one of those, and I wore that into my audition and auditioned. And there were so many girls there that looked just like me, like skinny and beautiful, and I thought, Well, I'm never going to get this, because look at these girls. They're stunning. And then there was me, and I was like, I should leave. And there was a point where I was going to get up and go, because they were all wearing, like, dresses and skin tight things. And I had this baggy referee jersey on, and I was like, oh, this is embarrassing. I had no other change of clothes, so I just went in there and I said, okay, well, you're going to embarrass yourself for two minutes. Just do what you can. And I went there, and I did my audition, and I just laid it all out on the table and left and went, well, that was embarrassing. And then they called and said, I got the job. So it was worth it. It was worth it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:12:56 How long did the show go for? Sam Cook (Guest) 00:12:58 We did it for seven seasons. It was unbelievable. Tons of episodes. We would record about four a day, and it was amazing. It was also like, another great time in my life. Where I met so many great people, and I'm so proud of the things that I've accomplished, for sure. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:13:17 How did you find your way into radio? Sam Cook (Guest) 00:13:19 That's a hilarious question as well. I was working for radio station in Toronto, helped Kiss 92.5 - Big thanks to Julie Adam for trusting me to hire me for that. And basically the reason why that came about is because the chorus network that I was working on with YTV, they were doing another show and it was going to be a countdown show. And I was like, well, that's my jam. I love music and I'm going to apply for it. So I went to apply for it and they said, well, no, we're not granting you an interview. And I said, why not? And they said, Because we're looking for someone that works in radio, okay? I said, Well, I'll just go get a job in radio. How hard is that? So I went home and I did have some resumes and I just sent them all out. And I get this call from Julie Adam in Toronto who calls me in and says, what's your experience in radio? And I said, Well, I had some with Energy 108 doing some stuff with their morning show with Tom Allen in the Morning Show, and that was it for my radio experience. And she said, okay, well, we're going to put you on air tomorrow night overnight. Let's see how you do. I said, okay. She goes, do you have audio board experience? I said, I do. And she said, okay. And I realized I didn't have audio board experience, but I learned real quick. And so, yeah, I ended up doing an overnight shift and she hired me to do overnight full time. And that's how it all started. Then I went back to say, hey, I got a job in Radio. And they're like, that's too late now, we hired someone. But thanks. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:14:51 Is that the countdown show that was hosted by Nicholas Picholas? Sam Cook (Guest) 00:14:54 No, that was the one that was hosted by Mad Dog. I can't remember what it was called. I think it was called Chart Attack or something like that. Yeah, he ended up getting the job for that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:15:03 Shout out to Jay Michaels, now working at CHOM in Montreal. Sam Cook (Guest) 00:15:06 Yeah, I think it was him that got hired for that, if memory serves me correctly. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:15:11 What role did radio really have in your career overall? Because you do so much by the way you touch every single base in media, because you touch voiceover, you touch television, you touch YouTube, you touch podcast, and this is kind of why I wanted to have you on. But in terms of the pie, where does radio fit into the pie and the scope of your career? Sam Cook (Guest) 00:15:31 I think radio was a really important part of my career. The reason why I loved that is TV was great. Working behind the scenes was great. But I realized really quickly that what I loved was communicating with people one on one. And I feel like radio did that. And I didn't realize the impact that radio had on the people listening and doing that overnight shift. I was getting a lot of shift workers calling in and chatting with me and telling me happy stories and sad stories. And I thought. This is just amazing. And they were listening to what you were saying, and they would remember something that you said weeks and months ago. And I just thought it was a really great job and then going out there and meeting the listeners, and I thought, this is unbelievable. I get to talk, I get to meet amazing people, and I get to listen to music for a living. And that's how my radio career started. I just had such a passion for it. So it was amazing because I could do radio overnight and I could do TV during the day, so it was great for me. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:16:36 And when you saw Howard Stern, was radio at the front of your mind? Are you considering it? Were you listening to Z 100 in New York? Sam Cook (Guest) 00:16:43 Oh, yeah, I mean, I was doing that, yeah, absolutely. But it was not on my radar. When I ran into Howard a few times while living in New York wasn't even a thought. It was basically just when that job came up and they said, we're looking for someone in radio, I went, okay, well, I want this job, so I'm going to go get a job in radio. And really, that's kind of how that happened. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:17:05 So you're doing the television, you get multiple takes. It's something that can be done once, twice, but in radio it's live and you get one shot. Sam Cook (Guest) 00:17:14 Yeah. Scary. It's very scary. And I think I like that. I like that it was live and there was so many things I've done on air. I've cried on air, I've screamed on air. There's so many great moments because radio is live, and I think that's why radio one of the reasons one of the many reasons that radio is still around is because people can relate to that. They can relate to the mistakes and the stumbles, because it's real life. So that's one of the things I love about being on the radio, for sure. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:17:47 And even though you graduated, you never really left Mohawk. Sam Cook (Guest) 00:17:51 No, I didn't, because once I was on YTV, a professor there said, hey, shout out to Ken Wallace, who said, hey, why don't you try teaching a class? It was an on air television class. And I said. Okay. And started teaching part time at Mohawk and bringing all the skills from Letterman and YTV back into the classroom and just started to do that part time until 2009. A job came up to be the coordinator of the radio program. And I thought. Okay. I've been in radio for nine years already. And I felt like I had enough experience at that point and got the job as the program coordinator at Mohawk. And I'm still there today. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:18:31 In just a second, more with Sam. As we unpack everything about teaching a radio host of Tomorrow and brace yourself, I might get a little opinionated about why your entry level radio positions are going unfilled. Also, Sam's podcast and why it podcasted and her voice work. As always, you can find all the connection points to Sam and our episode page@soundoffpodcast.com, including a transcript of this episode. Sarah Burke (Voiceover) 00:18:58 Transcription for the The Sound Off podcast powered by Poddin Your podcast is an SEO goldmine. We help you to dig out start your free trial now at http://www.poddin.io - Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:18:58 The Sound Off podcast. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:19:11 A little bit about voiceover and voicework because that's also sort of a middle component between it's actually has more to do with acting and television than it even does radio, although there's sort of a microphone involved. But how did you get involved with the into voice acting? Sam Cook (Guest) 00:19:26 So I think it's because when you work in radio, part of your job is to record commercials for the station. If production needs you, they'll call you in before or after your shift. And I realized how much I really loved doing that. It was so much fun. And when I realized, wait a minute, so you can get an agent and get paid for this. What? Okay, I need to do this. So I did my best to find an agent, which is not easy to find a voice agent, but was able to find one and started getting paid to do voiceovers and whatever was out there. And what I love about it as well is that I can work from home. I set up a whole home studio. Yeah, you can go to auditions in Toronto. But I liked the fact that I could do stuff from home as well and do as much of it or as little of it as I wanted to do. And I just have a passion for that as well. I just think it's such a fun job and to hear yourself, I know you've done stuff as well, but to be looking through YouTube and then all of a sudden your voice pops up. It's like, oh, like for the pre rolls or you're on Spotify and you hear your own voice, it's kind of cool. But I love that aspect of it as well. Working with clients to make sure they get what they need. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:20:46 So when you say home studio, what year are you talking? Because home studio these days means a lot different than the home studio back in 2010. I mean, it was a more serious business back then if you were going to build a home studio. Sam Cook (Guest) 00:20:57 Yeah, I had a room dedicated to soundproofing and buying the top of the line microphone. I saved up some money and I went into Long and McQuaid in Burlington and I just said to the guy working there, this is what I want to do, give me everything I need. And he just set me up. And then I had someone come into the house to make sure everything was treated and to make sure it was proper and yeah, and that's kind of where my love started and it morphed from there. And I have different microphones now in different areas that I record. It's quite the process. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:21:33 The audio geek in me wants to know what microphone you were sold at Long and McQuade. Sam Cook (Guest) 00:21:38 Oh, I had it. Hold on. It is a road nt two. Yes, that's it, that's it. Yes. An Nt Two. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:21:47 Yeah, that's what I'm using right here. Sam Cook (Guest) 00:21:49 Oh, really? Yeah, it's fantastic. I still have that mic and I bought it so many years ago, like way over a decade ago, and I still use it and love it. And then I have my shirt SM Seven B as well that I use a lot as well. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:22:03 Nice. I've actually graduated off this one for Voiceover. I've got a 416 in the corner. I just move the microphones around, I just rotate them round and round. Sam Cook (Guest) 00:22:12 Yeah. My biggest fear, though is I get nervous about rotating the microphones around because if the same client comes back, I always have to remember what mic I use so it sounds the same. So that's my biggest fear all the time. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:22:26 Do you have a microphone that you will use on the road? Sam Cook (Guest) 00:22:28 I usually bring the Rode mic with me on the road and the (Shure) SM7B stays here because I also have a cloud lifter and stuff with the SM7B just to kind of make my voice a little louder. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:22:39 When did you start teaching full time at Mohawk? Sam Cook (Guest) 00:22:42 So that happened in 2009 and I was offered that opportunity in 2009 and thought I was working at country 95 Three and I was loving being an announcer there and this job opportunity came up and I had to choose between country 95 Three and my dream job or teaching and going into something that I hadn't really done before full time and got offered the job and decided to take it. And I'm so glad I did because it's so rewarding to see all the new radio broadcasters come through the program. But still my heart, I do love radio and there's been a few occasions throughout the years where I've been offered the chance to go back and work in radio. But I do love teaching too, so it's really hard. So maybe one day I'll find like a part time job in radio and be able to keep working at Mohawk as well. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:23:35 So this is going to be a complicated question because you go back to 2009 when you started and we're covering a little bit more than a decade of turning out radio students, and you can also reference social media in this as well. And digital content. But I feel in 2009 you were teaching people for radio, and today you're teaching people to do something way more than radio. So how is the program and the curriculum evolved? Sam Cook (Guest) 00:24:00 Well, that's a great question. I found several years ago that all across the board, radio jobs were getting fewer and fewer. In 2009, we were doing really well and showcasing a lot of really great students who were getting jobs at 102 Point On the Edge and Virgin Radio right out of college, which they said was impossible. They would say they have to go across the country and come back. But I started noticing a trend that as the years progressed, that the jobs and radio were fewer, the students applying with a little bit less. And I thought, strange, why is that? So we ended up doing about a two year research project over the past couple of years through the Pandemic. Actually, it was very comprehensive. We were talking to people across Canada, in the States, talking to former students and faculty industry, and saying, what do you guys need? You tell me what you need, and then we'll make it happen. And it turned out that they said, we need students that are so good at social media that it's part of their job, not just in addition to it is the job. So you're on air and you're able to do social media. So the research showed that that's what the industry is looking for. So we went ahead and we spent a long time making the changes through the Pandemic, and now we are offering a new program, or an updated refresh program, if you will. It's now called Radio and Creative Content. And I'll be honest with you, and this is kind of the first time I'm saying this out loud, but I was so nervous because other colleges had been taking applicants since October of 2021, and we still weren't finished the program yet. And when it finally got approved by the ministry and the title was approved and we went live on January 17 of 2022, I was like, well, no one's going to want to take this program now because nobody really knows we exist. And every other radio program at every other college has been looking for applicants for months now. Well, turns out just a couple of weeks ago, we actually are full. We have all of our applicants. And I was so excited and shocked because I thought maybe ten people would apply because I'm like, nobody knows about it. But to see that we are a full program and that people are excited about it, it is a huge deal. And I'm also noticing too, that in the past six months alone, I have received more job applications for people to work in radio than I have since 2009, taking over that position. There are jobs out there and full time jobs that you can get a full time pay for. And this is exciting to see. And my hope is that upward trend will continue. I know some people will laugh and be like, okay, Sam, but this is what I'm seeing. And I'm seeing that upward trend of, I think program directors looking for you don't have to have necessarily experience anymore, but you have to be able to know radio, no social media, and they're looking for the next star. And if that means hiring someone out of college to be that star that has a following and maybe has 500,000 followers on TikTok, they want that. They want an instant star for their station. So I think things are going to change over the next five to ten years, and this is my hope. Yeah. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:27:26 So I'm seeing sort of a bit of an unintended consequence from the research that you've done and from a lot of what the Radio schools have done. They've all gone and upgraded their curriculum at the request of Radio. But I hear Radio programmers still complaining that they can't find people, and I think I know why. And it's because the Radio schools have upgraded their programs with the social and the content and now you can podcast and now you can do all this that the students are leaving and picking up higher paid jobs from other companies, corporate companies, who are looking for this exact person with these exact skills. And Radio will pay at the lower end, only need about one quarter of those skills. And that's all we really need. Meanwhile, there are big companies who will hire these people for 100% of these skills at twice the price. Are you seeing the same thing? Sam Cook (Guest) 00:28:21 Yeah. So I would say I have to agree with that. One of my personal reasons plus I thought, okay, my personal reasons and with the research showed that my main goal is, yes, I want to teach Radio. That is 100% what I want to do. I'm not selling out Radio for social media. I want to teach both. But what I want is my main goal is as long as the student walks out of the program and gets a job, that's what my main priority was. I didn't want a student to leave the program and get a job for $10 an hour, $12 an hour, and then have to also work at, you know, a hardware store at the same time. So, yes, the skills in this program, starting September 2022, they're high end skills. They're learning, like, how to start their own voiceover company, how to do a website, how to do their taxes. They're learning things like how to do a podcast and edit it with video. And this is not what we were teaching before, so we want to make sure that when they go out there, yes, they can work at a radio station, but they can work, like you said, at these other companies, being a social media manager, a podcaster, two of our students from the last intake, they're full time podcast producers right now, and they're doing amazing. And I'm proud because we taught them. They're Mohawk grads and they've got full time jobs in podcasting. And I'm okay with that. It's not radio, but that's okay in my opinion. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:29:48 Yeah, the Sound Off media company just grew exponentially through the pandemic, and I feel I get first crack at the top students come graduation time. And it's not that I'm sexier than a radio station, but it is work from home. You can do a podcast from anywhere. And I think that's why a lot of these radio jobs are staying open. So when I hear radio people saying, oh, well, we can't find anybody to work these, and I'm like, yeah, at that price, with those conditions, with everything that gets offered up, you get work from home with me, which is quite attractive. You get to work on demand. You get to work in a medium that is on demand. So I think I'm more attractive than a radio station. I never thought that that would happen. Sam Cook (Guest) 00:30:30 Yeah, and I think there are still some radio stations out there that do offer a good salary. I've seen some lately that I'm like, okay, that's a little bit more than what it would have been years ago. So I think after the pandemic, the radio personalities that maybe left the market, now they're like and they really are struggling. So I do see them starting to offer a little bit more money, and maybe that's what we needed in radio, to kind of say, okay, you can't pay somebody this amount of money anymore. You've got to pay them a living. And my hope is that the trend will go upwards and people will be like, we're losing the students to podcasters, so how do we fix that? That's the hope. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:31:11 Yeah, and to corporations too, who will hire social media. And some of these corporations are making their own content, especially in video. Sam Cook (Guest) 00:31:19 Oh, yeah. And we are teaching that too. That's one of the things that I wanted to make sure that the students will learn how to use DSLR cameras, how to use Premiere Pro to edit video. So I feel like with the course, I always tell students, like, you're learning a little bit about everything, so then that way you can specialize in what you want. And I do feel it was the right move to do this for what's going to happen in the next five to ten years in the industry. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:31:47 I've sat on the board at a few places just to talk about the podcast side of the curriculum. Red River College, Hersing. I've spoken with the people in Centennial, and I think I might have spoken to a few people at Mohawk as well, just about how podcasting would get integrated. It doesn't have to be a big part of the program because recording audio is just recording. Right. So just teach people to edit and you'll be okay. Sam Cook (Guest) 00:32:10 I think it's way more than that, in my opinion. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:32:13 Oh, it is. But if you can just teach the skills of creating and editing audio, we can teach the rest for podcast. And you don't have to graduate people at a podcast level. You just got to teach them how to record and do the audio. Sam Cook (Guest) 00:32:23 That's right. Exactly. And the companies that will want to hire them for the skills will basically say, this is what we're looking for, and teach those graduates the skills that are specific to that corporation. But podcasting is, I'm so proud of you and everything that you do. And if I could flip it around on you, I know what it takes to do a podcast and how hard you work at doing it. And I'm going to make sure that students know that as well. People think you just flick a microphone on, talk to someone and call it a day, and it's truly not like that. And I'm so proud of you and looking at all the episodes you've done and the team that you have working with you now, I'm so proud of you to stick to it because a lot of people like myself, after 1520 episodes, I'm like, I'm out, I can't do it. So much work. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:33:13 Yeah, we have a little scale. Some people get to seven episodes and quit. Some people get to 17. And I think that's where people who are really serious about it, they get to 17 and go, okay, that's enough. Sam Cook (Guest) 00:33:23 Well, if I had a team, I would still be doing my podcast today. I loved it. I love talking to people. That was my favorite thing to do. My not favorite thing to do was the editing and the piecing it together and then doing the video portion of it and piecing back together and then doing little snippets for social media. It ruled my life. So maybe if I had a team of people that would help significantly. But good for you. Like, honestly, good for you for doing this. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:33:51 People come to me and say, oh, I want to start a podcast. And I go, don't. It's hard. And if they still want to do it, we'll keep them around. But I try to rank it on a scale. The hardest thing to do is morning radio, five days a week, 4 hours live content on the air. And then they're also in that place now where they have to repurpose that content, which is hard. So your weekends pretty much get eaten up with that too. But podcasting is harder than doing the midday show, I would say. So even if you're voice tracking five stations, podcasting is way harder. And no disrespect to people who do that, but you got traffic and weather together in commercials and 57 minutes of your hours taken care of. Sam Cook (Guest) 00:34:28 Yeah, I think they both require certain skill sets, but my hope is to show students that this is not just an easy breezy job, that it does take someone through the rough times to keep going and to keep persevering through it, unlike me, who stopped doing it. I'm so proud of everything that you've done and all the guests that you're getting on. It's really great to see. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:34:54 Tell me about the shot. Sam Cook (Guest) 00:34:56 Oh, The Shot is something that I've been doing for a few years. I am host and executive producer of The Shot. It is a singer songwriter competition where we look for the next big artist and they win prizes like representation, they get help with branding, et cetera, et cetera. It started years ago where it was just to kind of help singers, songwriters. They would be amazing, but they just wouldn't know where to turn. So this competition started to try and help them get to the next level. And we were shooting in Toronto just before the Pandemic, having these really big shows, and then all of a sudden the Pandemic Kit and we went, oh gosh, what are we going to do? And ended up putting it online. And that's where it lives today, the future. I don't know what that looks like, but we did pretty well through the Pandemic. And having the shot. Canada. Then The Shot Canada versus USA and having different winners from all over North America, it was just such a cool thing to be a part of. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:35:57 You've got TV and radio experience, you've got podcast experience. If you were to land on one platform tomorrow, and I would say, okay, Sam, you can only pick one, what would you pick? What would you do for a show and where would the show reside? Sam Cook (Guest) 00:36:12 I would love to do a show in New York City. I would love to do a type of talk show interview show, and it would be like a cross between maybe like an Ellen show versus like a Drew Barrymore show. That's something that I think I would really love to do. That would be if you said I could do anything, that's what I would do. I'd move myself there and start a show like that. That would be the dream. Really? Truly. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:36:41 In an era where nobody has to move, you should move to New York. You'll have the best guess, right? Sam Cook (Guest) 00:36:46 I know. Absolutely. So that is the dream, but I don't know if it's going to happen. I have family here who needs me, a mom who is in long term care with dementia, and it's really hard to think about leaving her. So that's kind of where my priorities lie right now. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:37:04 Tell me something. Your students have taught you patience. Sam Cook (Guest) 00:37:08 Not everybody lives the same way as you do. People come from different backgrounds. They all have their different struggles. And just because they're younger than you doesn't mean that their problems aren't as significant. I've seen some students go through a lot at such a young age, and I'm like, wow. So they teach me patience and understanding. I get emotional thinking about it, because just when you think you're having a bad day and a student tells you, this happened to me, you're like, wow. And then it puts things into perspective. So it's not all about me. It's not the Sam show. We're a family. I think I've made sure that the students know. When you walk into my classroom, the first thing I say is, if I catch you bullying anybody, no matter who they like, who they love, what they do, where they come from, one little ounce of bullying, and you're out of this course, out of this program, out of the school. And that's the biggest thing. It's just watching everyone be compassionate to each other and making them into young adults is something that I'm super proud of. And watching them succeed after is amazing. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:38:14 Who's a graduate of your program that I would know? Sam Cook (Guest) 00:38:17 Well, there's a ton of them. If you're from Hamilton, Bubba O'Neil on CHCH. There's Linda Martelli at KX 94.7 Oh, my gosh, there's so many. I'm drawing a blank because we just did a bunch of features with a bunch of our grads. We've had some new grads. Like I said, as podcast producers. I can't believe I'm grabbing a blanket. I just did this whole thing on social media with our grads, Adam Oilfield. Will Nash. You had Will Nash on one of your podcasts. He's a grad. I'm drawing a blank right now, but we have had so many successful grads out of the program. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:38:51 Sam, thanks so much for being on the podcast. I appreciate it. Sam Cook (Guest) 00:38:54 No worries. Thank you for having me. Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:38:54 The Sound Off podcast. Written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski. Social Media by Courtney Krebsbach. Another great creation from the Sound Off Media Company. There's always more at soundoffpodcast.com.

Todd Cochrane is a guest you might recognize. Last time he was on the show, in October 2019, we kept things fairly light. This time, however, diving straight into the deep end on the technical side of podcasting: RSS feeds, micro payments, Podcast 2.0, and what the future might look like for podcasts. If you're a creator who cares about the computer mumbo-jumbo that goes on behind the scenes, this episode is for you. Todd is the team leader at Blubrry, a podcast hosting platform that's breaking new ground in terms of what your platform can do for you. Of course we go into more detail in the episode, but here's an overview. Blubrry is partnered with Descript, meaning Descript users can publish edited episodes directly from the app. It also features programmatic advertising, and as of August 21st, something extra unique: built-in transcriptions that can be activated from an embedded player. Seriously next-level. And the best part is, the team is still developing and expanding the project every day. We also discuss a commonly asked question in the podcast world- What is Podcast 2.0? Or Rss 2.0, whatever you'd like to call it. You've probably heard this term a lot if you're involved with podcasting, and Todd gives an incredible rundown that's much too long to repeat here. But in summary, it's less of a replacement for the current systems, and more of a way to bring them into the future. You won't need to worry about drastically changing the way you upload podcasts. Think of it like going from Windows 7 to Windows 10. Same system, but with more features. For more about the future of podcasting, I'd also highly recommend Podcasting 2.0, hosted by Adam Curry and Dave Jones. It's all about new developments in the podcast sphere, and if this episode felt like an appetizer for you, Podcasting 2.0 is the main course. You should definitely keep up with Todd, too. You can follow him on Twitter, LinkedIn or Facebook for more updates as Blubrry continues to grow and evolve. Transcript: Tara Sands (VO) 00:00:01 The Sound Off podcast. The podcast about broadcast with Matt Cundill... Starts now. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:10 We last had Todd Cochrane on the program back in October of 2019. Todd answered my podcast questions, things like, why does every new company call themselves the Netflix of podcasting? And is iHeart really number one, like they claim? And is the RSS feed in danger of going away? Well, today I've got a new round of questions that get a little more technical and a little more into the weeds of podcasting's future. Possibilities, and future possibilities, things like micro payments and Podcasting 2.0. And yes, I'm going to ask once again why companies keep hinting at doing away with RSS feeds, and we'll make an attempt to unpack why they would want that. We're also going to hav e a discussion about privacy, namely your privacy. As a podcast creator and as a listener, Todd Cochrane heads up the team at Blubrry who have released no fewer than five upgrades and add ons to their podcast product. If you're interested in podcasting, Blubrry is a great place to start. Todd Cochrane joins me from his home studio somewhere in the radio listening vicinity of Grand Rapids, Michigan. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:17 Do you have a lot of Canadian clientele? Todd Cochrane (Guest) 00:01:19 A fair amount. It's probably largely US, Canada, UK, as far as the English speakers go, then Brazil is big, really. We kind of hit it. We're having an influx of people from France. People are leaving a certain podcast provider there and moving to us. But we're moving a lot of people. It's shocking how many people were moving off a certain other platform that's out there. People kind of woke up and said, well, maybe I need to rethink what I'm doing. So I think podcasters are starting to it's what I call it called graduating. They kind of get to a certain point and they're like, maybe they should own my brand. And that kind of triggers them to go looking and everyone trades people around, but we're moving a lot of people up a free platform. I'll just leave it at that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:02:16 You say that a lot about owning your brand, and especially when it comes to owning your website and the importance of it. And it's something that I have to reiterate quite often to people. So what does it mean to own your brand? Todd Cochrane (Guest) 00:02:29 Well, in today's age, it goes further than just having your own dot com, because it used to be, that was it. Have a Squarespace page or Wix or a WordPress site, but there's been some entrance into the space that lets you easily create a podcast page with your RSS feed and map a domain to it. And Google really doesn't consider that. Your dot com that considers the syndication page and they rank it lower than where you host your media or maybe have your hosting page. So what really means- what it means to own your brand is to have a point of origin where the initial blog post for your content originates. So if you use a hosting provider as others and you get a media file, that media file when you publish your first blog post or podcast post, however you want to say it, that should originate on your website, it should originate over on your hosting platform that you may be using. Because then really what Google really looks at then is point of origin. And not necessarily again from the media file, but a really point of origin from the post. So if you're posting on your hosting provider first and then duplicating that on a secondary site, which then would be your.com, you really are not owning your brand. So owning your brand really means originating that post on your website. And I believe people should own their feed. Other people will argue with me that that's not important. I think it is at this point. To really own that entire stack, the.com the feed and then where that media file lives is really kind of arbitrary at this point. It doesn't matter. But from a Google perspective, and again, growing a podcast is multifaceted. It's not just owning your brand and posting on your website. But for years now, Google has been improving the way they look at where content originates, the source, building trust in a source. So you want to build trust on your.com because here's the challenge. If you're posting on a website provider. A podcast providers website. And you're intermixed with let's say. 1000 shows. And just one or two of them linked to a site that might contain adult material. Or maybe it's a malicious page. And these things happen if you don't watch your outbound links even on your own website. Then all of a sudden the authority of that website goes down as a whole and it will recover once that's cleared. And oftentimes whoever the hosting providers will probably get a notice within a couple of weeks and we'll clean that out. But you are then stuck for a couple of weeks or a month, the regaining authority back, even though your page had nothing to do with that. So when you can control everything on your own.com, you don't have to worry about except for your stuff, linking to correct pages and being the source of that content. I think it's really important. And over time, this is not something for a brand new podcaster, but when you're at 110, 2030 episodes in and you've got rich show notes, then Google starts to take notice. But if you're just writing a headline and one sentence for show notes, well just go host wherever you want to host because you're not helping yourself. Even if you have your own.com. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:06:06 They got a whole rash of announcements that you've made and I think the one that's already been made and that's out there is just a simple one. But it's one of the things that really is going to help podcasters have a chance to really landing some advertising and that's sales profile sheet that gets created. I can't tell you the number of times I've asked podcast host, is there something we can do to create something that really is saleable? And I really love this sheet. Todd Cochrane (Guest) 00:06:32 Well, Lena, my CTO, we had thought about this a long time ago, but mid last year she was like, we have a place in our Slack channel, which is basically an idea farm. She had come up with this and I kind of really stuck in my brain. And we just spent two years rebuilding the platform and when we got done with that rebuild, it's like, how can we really live this mantra now? Publish, analyze, grow would be succeed, monetize, whatever inspire, whatever action word you can think of. And really it's always about grow, help me grow, help me grow, help me grow. And being a show that has a podcast media kit is not always about money. It could be about gaining interviews. It could be about just establishing yourself. And what that media kit allows you to do is number one, you choose what you want to make publicly available. And number two. You can run a listener survey so you have true listen demographic data on that sheet to give those that look at that one sheet the ability to understand at a glance. Really 30 seconds looking at that page. What this shows about. How often does it post. What type of place is it getting. What type of engagement. All those things and then tied into the demographic profile is really just the goal. There was those that want to monetize can use it as a standard media kit. And those that are maybe having some guests that wants to come on can show it. It's not for every show because and what we did is we didn't make this page indexable. Unless the podcaster puts a public link to it, then it's all over the Google pick it up and index it. But as long as they're careful on who they share that with via email or messenger or however they're going to communicate where that link is, then Google won't pick that up and actually index it. So it can stay private even though it doesn't require a login. But yeah, I'm pretty proud of that particular piece of product and we're going to do more of this. We're looking really at everything is under the microscope of how do we get podcasters actionable information to help grow their shows to succeed. We really look at that. It's not always about the money. It's all about, is this going to help a content creator? And I think, as you see what we're announcing over the next few days, that is a big part of that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:09:14 And it's pretty exciting for people in podcasting. But we have a large radio audience who really don't understand why podcasting doesn't have demographics. And attribution, oh, I want to sell adults 25, 54 and why it has been difficult for podcasters to have that information and it all comes down to privacy. Todd Cochrane (Guest) 00:09:33 Well, it's really multifaceted. Number one, our listeners subscribe to a public open RSS feed, essentially, that doesn't require a login. Now, if they create an account over Spotify, spotify has that information, but the podcaster doesn't get any of it. If they subscribe on Overcast or Pocket Cast or use one of those apps, there's no login required. They just download the app and get going. So the demo data that other providers like Pandora and Spotifying, those have access to, just because they have all this information from their customers as part of their sign up process, not available. So the question podcasters have asked for a millennia is, who's listening? And oftentimes they think they know. They think, okay, I've got a majority of ladies, I think 18 to 20, 518 to 35, whatever. Maybe they're single moms. They kind of have an idea. And for years we've made available for free part of the Blueberry services. It's a simple twelve or 13 question survey. They get you those basic male, female, household, household income with kids, no kids, married, all that basic stuff that someone is going to need to get a basic demographic. We're not asking them what type of makeup do you like? Or what type of cologne? We're not asking those questions. We're asking pure demographic data so that at least from that standpoint, they get a base of who their listeners are with that information. Then maybe then they can develop a more in depth survey targeting the folks that listen to their show. So again, it's just a quick way to collect information and we're going to have it set up so that you can actually set a date range. So if you make a change, let's say you do a survey this year, you want to do next one next year, we're going to set up so you can look at that data by date range. Okay, this is the responses I've seen over the last six months versus what I've seen two years ago, so that people can see how their audience has changed over time. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:11:40 Blubrry now has programmatic offerings, and I think in the last year or two, we've seen a lot of podcast hosts jump into the programmatic. I don't want to call it a game because it is a serious business after all. So Blueberry is in with programmatic. But I also want to point out that you have had dynamic audio insertion for many years as well. So I think a lot of people might want to know what the difference is. Todd Cochrane (Guest) 00:12:05 Yeah, so sometimes it's even get confused by podcasters. I had a podcaster yesterday. I want to add the search into my hosting plan. What kind of ads do I get? And we go back to no. It's a self serve platform. It's typically used by podcasters. They have advertisers, they can set up a premium mid post role. They can do that through audio insertion. And it's provided as a software, as a service on the platform for pro hosting customers. And typically, it's not only used for advertising, it's used by nonprofits. They may be wanting to promote something for a short time, they put a preroll on, or they're promoting other shows in the networks. We have networks. They're using it purely as a cross promotion tool. They're running different promos on different shows and inserting that and then changing up basically the assets. So that is really the ad insertion portion is a SAS products offers a service they can add to their hosting for their content. Now, we draw a line here. Programmatic advertising, in fact, those are using the ad insertion platform cannot have programmatic at the same time. Those two systems currently don't intermix well. And so you either are running your own ads or you can opt in to run programmatic advertising here. Now, we've worked with a partner called Soundstack, and we actually have had six months because we had some significant discussions with them about making sure podcasters were getting appropriate ads and their content. In our initial release, we excluded categories like cannabis, gambling, politics, any type of adult content. Just basically, I think there's five or six categories and they're on our information page, basically, of those categories we initially excluded out of the gate. Now, when we go and do another release of the program advertising, the podcaster will be able to go in and turn those categories on or turn other ones off. And we've done. A number of shows have been on test and we've been collecting. What are we hearing, what kind of ads are we hearing? We're hearing everything from information about getting a COVID shot to Microsoft ads to Geico. We've heard the whole bevy of advertisements as a preroll, 32nd preroll. So five years ago, I don't think programmatic was mature enough or in a place that would allow a content creator to have confidence to let them trust us to run ads on their show. Now, here's the deal. The podcaster doesn't get to pick the ads that run it's done real time. These ads come in literally, they can change minute to minute, region to region, day to day. So what I hear on my show in Michigan and what someone hears on my show in California will more than likely be two separate, different ads. So there's just no way, and this is often done by computer bidding. Now, the vendors are vetted and reviewed and all that stuff before their ads are allowed to go live. But there's a lot of ingestion points with Sound stack, and we've worked really hard with them to make sure that this is going to be something that a podcast is not going to call me and say, what are you doing? That's the call I don't want to get. And actually, I told Sounds Tech I said, if that happens, we're having an immediate I got you on speed dial because we want to make sure that the podcasters are happy with this. Now, with that, the CPM rates are going to run five to $15 is what we're seeing in Africa, then run 1314 here in the last couple of months. And more importantly, it's not 100% fill. You're going to get about an 80% bill in the early. When a podcaster starts, the ad volume will ramp up over time. And what it largely is because vendors that are buying against that content are not only looking for brand safety, they're also looking to make sure that the consistency of the show. So over 60 days, volume will increase on the shows to opt in. And again, it's an opt in. They choose to participate, don't have to. Can turn it on with a simple click of a switch. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:16:18 So just to give people an idea, I got excited because I was in Spain and I have a podcast on Megaphone, and I started my own podcast and a Spanish ad came out. I don't know what it was for. I don't know Spanish well enough to know what the product was. I do know that I got paid for that spot in Spain and in Canada, I had a Canadian ad run in that spot exactly, which is actually an advertiser that I've sold to directly. And I wish I could tell people. I think you've said many times on the New Media show that the best way to monetize is to sell the ad spot yourself. If you can talk about your relationship, because I think this is about relationships and the one you have with GoDaddy that you've had for many years. And I think this is the ideal podcast monetization advertising relationship. Todd Cochrane (Guest) 00:17:09 That's where you make the most money if you choose to go this route. For me. And again, advertising now is kind of crazy in the host endorsement space. It used to be the advertiser would buy 90 days worth of ads or six months. Now they're buying a month at a time, and maybe they're buying four or five episodes or two episodes. And it can be a little bit of an administrative headache for a content creator to remember when they're supposed to run. What that said, the relationship I've had with GoDaddy is really based on one thing performance. Now, I work with the buyer every month we have a discussion, some often email, sometimes it's a call. How we did, where we're at, do we need to improve, do we need to change the deal? Whatever it may be. But in the end, it boils down to performance. And my situation is a little bit different than most podcasters because I know that I got enough new podcasters coming in. Listening to the show that I'm able to sell to them. Where the folks have been with me for many years. Or maybe not buying a GoDaddy product on a regular basis. But because I've had a show for so long. People have left and come back and then reuse the codes again. Now I only get paid on new customer acquisitions. I have to meet a certain minimum each month to make sure the deal continues to be renewed. And I've been renewed now since June of 2005. There's no other relationship like it in the podcasting space. If anyone can replicate it again, I want to hear how they did it. But GoDaddy just basically I still have to meet my numbers and that relationship has been worth a considerable amount of money overall this time. So again, it's a relationship. There was things that were done early in the relationship with one of the prior founders or with the founder. He did some stuff that today would absolutely in. The world we live in would have been devastating. Then it was pretty bad. Now it would be devastating. Things like going on African safari and shooting in Elf, that type of thing. And even back then, I went back and said, hey, what are you doing? You're killing me here. And I was basically went on the show and had my own commentary, talking negatively about what had happened. And so they understood from a marketing standpoint that they had to be good stewards as well. And they changed their complete company vision. I think if you think back to GoDaddy and Danny Kapatrick and being a representative for them for many years, the advertising was pretty hot, heavy, and now they made a complete shift, as they should have. And now they're there. Let's put it this way, there's no more hotness to GoDaddy ads. And they're a good partner and we've been with them a long time, so we've evolved over 17 years with them. So not many content creators can say that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:20:19 So we both waited on Twitter when it came to podcaster being purchased by a cast. You took the approach that you're taking your material off there. I'm in the wait and see category and we can discuss chartable as well, which has been purchased by Spotify as well. Yeah, so I feel it's a bit of a trade. I'm going to give you my RSS feed and in return you're going to give me back some information about it. And we can debate all day whether or not that information is useful. Sure, but what is the danger here that I'm missing? Todd Cochrane (Guest) 00:20:57 Well, it's a situation where I believe very strongly and Blueberry has adopted GDPR globally or CCPA compliant. We believe very strongly in listener privacy. We don't want listeners remarketed to they've already opted in all over the place. Why add podcasting to that piece? The difference is when I go to Amazon, if I go to Google, I opt into their terms of service. I say, yes, I'm dreaming to buy stuff on your platform. In exchange, you're going to track what I search for and look for. And you're going to present ads to me. That's part of the deal we do and we sign up for. We may not know that in the 800 pages of print, but that's essentially what we've assigned for. We've agreed to those terms of services. When a podcast listener subscribes or follows the show, there's no such transaction that says, hey, we're going to track you and use that information to market to you with the purchase of charitable and podcasts to Spotify. They did not do that because that was a business that was making a huge amount of money and will add a huge amount of money to their bottom line. Sure, it's going to add some money, their bottom line, but in the end, it's about the data. What are they going to do with that data? How are they going to market that data, the data that's being collected, what are they going to do with it? Same thing with podcaster being bought by Acast. It's the same scenario. What is Acast going to do with the data that they've got from podcaster? So as a podcaster, like you said, you have to weigh the decision, is the value I'm giving these platforms about my listeners, is it worth the exchange and am I okay with potentially my listeners being I'm saying this is going to happen. I'm just using example, is it worth the exchange of my listeners potentially being remarketed to? And again, I'm not saying they're being remarketed to. It's not clear what a cast is going to do with that. I think it's two things with Acast. Number one, they're going to continue to poach shows. They're going to say, okay, these 25 shows are at top of their game, let's go get them and we'll get those 25 shows and we're going to bring them over here and we're going to monetize them. So they're probably using it a little bit for an intelligence collection on the podcast themselves. So my situation was I don't want them knowing about my show or shows that was my personal prerogative. Blueberry customers can do whatever they want because it's their shows. We don't tell podcasters what to do, how to build their shows, anything. It's their babies. But personally, I was of the opinion I don't use Charterable, I don't use Pod sites. And if I pull my shows off Pod Chaser, then that's just less data that someone else is going to collect because I'm protecting my brand. What if someone decides, well, that genre of content Todd is doing is really rocking. Let's go create two or three shows to compete against him in the same genre and target his audience because of this acquisition and start poaching my listeners. There's all kinds of scenarios that can happen and it's not all just privacy related. That's what drove my decision. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:24:29 Yeah, and I was a little surprised by your decision because I thought, oh, it's podchaster. This looks like it's the IMDb.com of podcasting. Doesn't this look like fun? And it seemed well intentioned and simple and I could credit the people who contributed to my podcast and put them up there. We have about six people who help put this podcast together every week and it just looked neat and tidy and I never really thought, oh, yeah, this could be used nefariously against me. Todd Cochrane (Guest) 00:24:59 And maybe it's not nefariously. It's again, it's data. So what are they going to do with the data? And part of it was, I love the podcaster team, don't get me wrong, I love that team and really proud that they got an exit. I really am. So don't take that the wrong way, but I don't have a good relationship and the industry doesn't have a good relationship with a cast because of the fact they've stopped spamming, ironically, several months before they closed this deal. And I think part of it was, oh, we're going to get ready by this deal, we have to stop the spamming because it's going to look bad if we're spamming and announced this deal. That's my hypothesis that's Todd's thought. So if that purchase got them to stop spamming, okay, they are notorious for this or trying to poach. So now, is this the substitute? We got podcast, we got all this data. Now we can go one on one. We don't have to do a blast. We can pick the top 50 in each category and go after them individually. That is part of what I suspect. But they could have done this on their own. They didn't have to buy podcaster. But what they did is they took that data off the table. No one else can get to it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:26:16 Now, what I really look forward to every day in podcasting is a company coming out and saying how RSS is really killing podcasting, because the following Wednesday, I can't wait to listen to your show for you and Rob to go off for 1 hour about this thing. So explain to me again how RSS is allegedly killing podcasting. Todd Cochrane (Guest) 00:26:39 It's not, but for listeners, they don't care. They just want to listen. And I think we'll keep that in context. The listeners just want to listen to content where they want to listen to it. Currently, the primary distribution method for podcasts is through open RSS, where no one controls the feed, no one controls the distribution. The platforms that decide they want to have podcasts on their platforms can and can compete head to head with everyone else. So you've got the Amazon, the Pinopoli, you've got all these different groups that have added podcasts to their platform. And the reason they've been able to do that is because of open RSS. Now, obviously, people are signing deals. Rogan did and others have gone over Spotify and Man I clap, clap, clap. And anyone can get $200 million that took that check, too. Let's just be kind of frank, but at the same time we've got the ability to continue to maintain an open ecosystem with no gatekeepers and way. My passion is so heavy on this. You have to go back to the beginning, 2004. The only way you are getting distributed on anything beyond your website was a big fat contract, lots of legalese, and you got wrapped up and you were owned and controlled and your media often was, why did you do that episode? We don't want this type of content. So there's handlers. So really, ultimately when podcasting came into the existence in 2004 and took off the way it did, it was because we could basically say, we don't need you establish media, we don't have to ask you permission. We can have our content go everywhere. Everyone takes it for granted now, and it's good that they do, but we have to keep remembering that anytime someone says RSS is bad, it's because they have an agenda. I have an agenda at Blueberry. I have an agenda to sell hosting accounts. That's my agenda. Nothing more than that. We want to bring customers and we want to help them succeed. That's my agenda. But at the same time, we're content creators and we know the value of being able to keep that distribution going. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:28:56 So when I hear that RSS is not good for podcasting, what I really am hearing is that RSS is not good for our podcasting plans in our particular company. Todd Cochrane (Guest) 00:29:09 That's right, yeah. When a company turns off RSS feeds automatically, you have to request an RSS feed on a podcasting platform. You can kind of see the agenda. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:29:19 So what happens if Spotify says, okay, we want you to upload your content directly to us. We're no longer going to be accessing your RSS feeds. What do you do? What would you tell your clients? Todd Cochrane (Guest) 00:29:30 I expect that I think the clock is ticking. They're under massive financial pressure. My prediction is that their free hosting platform days are numbered and people that want to be on Spotify will have to go direct and basically they'll incorporate that platform into Spotify and that will be a separate place that you'll have to publish your show. They may not abandon RSS feeds, but I wouldn't put it past them because as far as ingestion from external shows, they've done some interesting things over the years. Everything to their benefit. And a number of us were made there. We basically ran customer support for Spotify podcasts for a year at least, when they ramped up. So there's no hard feelings here. Smile, smile. But they want to own a bigger chunk and it's okay again, as long as the listeners get content where they want to get it, they can do whatever they want to do. But we'll see. We'll see what happens over time. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:30:32 What if YouTube asks the same and they make an announcement at Podcast Movement saying, we want you just to. Upload your audio and we'll handle your audio instead of linking into our RSS feeds. Todd Cochrane (Guest) 00:30:42 Now, what I think that has high potential. But again, if you think about YouTube, what is YouTube done? There's a lot of politics on YouTube. You have to be a very good YouTuber to be in the good graces of YouTube. Otherwise you're not found unless you can drive traffic there. So often people are saying now you got to be on YouTube, you got to be on YouTube. Well, I challenge you to go and just take any category in Apple podcasts and look at the top 100 shows and Google them on YouTube and see who you find. Tell me if it's important for your show to be on YouTube. I'm of the opinion it's great to be on there, but I don't feel that you may get some discovery, but the average podcaster is going to have limited, I believe I might be wrong, limited benefit of being on YouTube. I'm on YouTube, been there for years, but I still today get limited benefit of being on YouTube because I see my YouTube views. It's nothing compared to the podcast. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:31:48 I feel immense pressure, though, when I hear people like Tom Webster and Jeff Fiddler when they link it up and say people say they get all their podcasts from YouTube. Todd Cochrane (Guest) 00:31:58 I think there are big shows, big podcast on YouTube, big shows. So I don't think the average consumer now fully, again, they don't care what the technical description of a podcast is. They think they're listening. Joe Rogan, he's technically no longer a podcaster. He has a show on Spotify and they consider it a podcast. Listeners don't know the difference, nor they shouldn't, because they don't care. They just like, listen to Joe Rogan. But just based on what I've looked at, what Dave Jones and our system Point OS looked at, and others, again, YouTube is a great place to be. I'm there because I want potential people to listen to the show over there. It's a great discovery place, potentially. So I think it's what you put into it too. So I think it's work just like any other, just like doing your own blog post. But again, these are great distribution points. In the end, when I'm doing my show, I want to say come back to geetneycentral.com, come back to new mediashow.com, come back to podcastinsider.com. That's moonbase alpha for the show. That's where the show originates and that's where I have my funnel and I have my social interaction and they go out from there. And also it's a great discovery vehicle. So again, I don't poopoo having a show somewhere, but I don't think there's as much value to the average podcaster as what is being implied. And that's my opinion. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:33:23 In just a second we talk micropayments. So rather than dabbling with like PayPal and patreon and buy me a coffee, Todd will explain about Satoshi and value for value. Yes, we're going to get deeper into it. He even offers to help get you earning by checking out the Fountain app. And we're also going to talk about some of the exciting things around transcription. Speaking of which, we've posted a link to the transcription for this podcast along with a link to the Fountain app on our website, soundoffpodcast.com. Sarah Burke (VO) 00:33:55 Transcription for the Sound Off podcast is powered by Poddin. Your podcast is an SEO goldmine. We help you to dig out. Start your free trial now at Poddin.io. Tara Sands (VO) 00:34:02 The Sound Off Podcast. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:34:07 What is rss 2.0? Todd Cochrane (Guest) 00:34:07 It's the expansion of the current spec. It's basically making things, giving additional features. Probably by the time the show airs, we have already announced they have RSS 2.0, implemented a transcript tag, and we added transcript capability to Blubrry some time ago. But what that really means is, okay, so I get a transcript in the Rss feed. What good is that? Well, the only good it really is, is once that transcript file is linked to a closed caption file like an SRT or VTT or BRT, I forget the two extensions. And we've built a player that has closed caption support. So now, because you have a closed caption capable file in the transcript tag in your RSS feed, if you're a Blubrry customer using our new modern player, you basically will have the ability when it's on your website to click closed captions and a little box will open up in your audio player and you'll have closed caption for your podcast. This is the first time this has been done for podcasting. It's an accessibility thing that we've added to the platform, and it's the thing I'm probably one of the most exciting things that we announced, the podcast movement is this new feature and it's automated. So if a content creator is signed up with our transcription service that we've added, as soon as they hit publish, the media file goes over to the transcriber, comes back as the specific file, we drop it in, and the player will play the show. The transcript now or the closed caption now. If they upload a text file that isn't transcript or closed caption capable, we'll just show a transcript link in the player and they'll be able to click it and download it. If they have nothing, then the player will be blank. So it'll be on the player itself. It'll have nothing if nothing's in the transcript tag, it'll have an actual downloadable transcript if it's an actual just plain text file or PDF, and if it says SRT or VTT capable file, the closed caption button will show up and when you click at the bottom will drop out of the audio player and show the closed caption. That's part of podcast 2.0. We wouldn't have been able to do that without it. There's other things like chapters, there's now value for value. There's this new term going around, boost, being able to get crypto. I mean, there's some of it out there ways, and it's a 3% product, but we're going to be adding more features so that we can educate the 97% if they want to implement some of the stuff on their shows. Again, the value for Podcast 2.0 is threefold creators and the people that are making the apps. There's some repair that goes on with an app called Fountain. If you make a donation, they add 1% to your donation for them and 100% goes to the podcaster. There's a little processing fee through the Satoshi network, and believe me, we don't get into that. We spend a whole hour on that topic alone. But it is just one of those situations now where we're looking at new ideas. And the Podcast 2.0 community is which now accompanies about 70 different apps and platforms that are participating to really help creators and expand a specification that has not been touched literally in 15 years in any significant way. We had additional tags for years, but because it was a Blubrry thing, no one wanted to adopt them. So we donated four or five tags. And this is getting technical, but it's basically made of data that's in the RSS feed that outlines something, location of the show, lays out alternate enclosure tag. There are all kinds of crazy things that are being done that once tied to apps and different applications. So imagine you're on Pocket Cast and you make a comment about a show and you pick up the Overcast app, and that comment shows up on Overcast as well. Then you have the ability as a podcaster to build community through an ecosystem that allows your comments to go across all apps. So that way you don't have to load six different, seven different apps to communicate with your community. That's part of the Podcast 2.0 initiative, so things like that. But again, we have to get adoption and as a hosting provider, we're going to start adding additional things to basically kick along, say, hey, we're supporting it, everyone wants to come out and join the party. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:38:44 So there's a lot of pressure on podcasting hosting companies to upgrade their services to get this stuff in. So, for instance, I'm big on transcription. I added it six months ago. We're using Potentio for this and we think they're a good company that supports this stuff. And the onus is going to be on me to connect with my host here, which is Art 19, to say, hey, Dan and Sean and Roddy at Art 19, when are you going to start to do the RSS 2.0 so I can get my transcriptions in here? And do you think, like hosting companies, they'll add this on one by one? So the location tag will come at some point, and then the transcription tag will come at some point and it's just building blocks, right? Todd Cochrane (Guest) 00:39:29 It is. It's building blocks. And the primary reason we went with this closed caption function on the player was several big, big companies got sued for not being accessible. Now I heart they're big, a lot of money, easy target. They create a lot of audio on the web. No closed captions for that. So as a hosting provider, I said, okay, we have the ability and the technology to provide this. Let's provided it's up to the podcaster if they want to opt in and provide this to their host. But at least from a hosting provider standpoint, I've made this available so that they don't have to go out and outsource this somewhere else and find a solution. It's right in the platform. Podcast. Hosting today is commoditized. There are 25 or 30 different hosting providers. So it's really now the hosting of the media is really the last thing that people even think about. It's about the additional layers of stuff that we provide that adds value for being their host. The reason they pay us $20 a month to host with us, or 40, or whatever it may be. My perspective is, again, we are focused on really three keywords helping them publish, analyze, and grow their show. So how do we help them grow their show? Well, all of a sudden, this podcast, it's on Blueberry that may be about some abstract topic, is the only show that has a closed caption for the hearing impaired. And guess what? They're going to get a boost because that show is hearing impaired capable. And they're going to get that audience because we've made it easy for the hearing impaired to actually do just like on television, be able to follow along. They can't hear it, but they can see. Now we'd like to have where people are laughing and those types of things that are showing up into the transcript that we're not there yet. So at the base, we're at least providing the ability to have closed caption on your website. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:41:29 So you did touch on it, and we won't take an hour to talk about satoshi's and all that stuff, but value for value. So you've made an appearance on this show. I'd love to send you a little something. I have no idea what I'm doing. I never thought I'd ever get into cryptocurrency. You mentioned the fountain app, too. Where do I start with all this? How do I get you paid? Todd Cochrane (Guest) 00:41:48 I think the fountain app is a great place to start. You listen to the show. I don't know how they're doing this, but you earn satoshi. And what a satoshi is, is 1,000,000th of a bitcoin. So I think right now, 10,000 satoshi is like a buck. Yeah, I think 10,000 satoshi is about a dollar. So you will earn I don't know what the earn rate is on fountain, but you actually learn to listen. So you don't even have to set up any place to buy bitcoin or buy, you know, convert. You don't have to worry about any of that. To begin with. Just by using the app, you earn some and you'll be able to donate those back to the shows that you like. I got 50 Sat 6 hours ago from someone called the Basset podcast from the Fountain app. And I can actually tell, for those of us that are kind of geeky, there's a dashboard. We can actually see the donations that have come in. And as a matter of fact, yesterday during the new Meta show, as I was playing it, there a boost, they call them, a boost came in and there's a peeping sound and it fired. And everyone on the show heard the PPU, and we were able to read the donation that had come in from a listener. So it's micro payments, and here's where the difference is. All right, I've got a PayPal link on my website, I've got cash app, I've got demo, I've got all these modern ways to get money, right? The PayPal link people can subscribe and give me $2 a month. It's the same as I almost like buying a coffee type of deal. They've got patreon. We have all these different ways, but really, there's no way to send a micro payment. No one's going to send in PayPal $0.50. That's dumb. To send $0.50 via PayPal, you get eight up in transaction fees. The podcast will probably end up with a dime. So the micro payments in Satoshi, which will convert to Bitcoin, which you can convert Bitcoin to money. On my Bitcoin account. I personally use Coinbase. There's lots of them out there. And I had a bunch of stats that come in. I essentially converted them back to Bitcoin and transferred them into my PayPal account was like $100. So it is not easy currently, but it is possible to get that money back into hard currency. Again, this is not for the faint of heart at this point, but RSS.com just added an interaction with Get Albie. So podcasts over there can immediately start earning income on their shows. We'll probably do an integration with them as well. Again, these are all baby steps, but I had this mindset for a while. I'm not billing for the 3%, I'm billing for the 97%. But the 3% is where the edge is at. It's where people are experimenting and doing cool things. So my thought process was, let's add some stuff for 3%. We'll educate the 97%, maybe we can move the 3% to the 25%. And if that's the case, and podcasters are getting used to this, they're starting to talk about it, then the tools will get better, it will be easier to use. Some folks are very against crypto. Now, let me just be straight. I do not invest in crypto. I think it's more risky than stock market, and we've obviously seen that. And if you invest in the stock market, you're risk there, you can lose every penny. So if we go into this saying that this is a mechanism like PayPal to be able to get some money out of donations from audience members and not look at it as this big evil finance thing, but as an actual way. And basically you do have to declare earnings that come in off of bitcoin. So you basically can use this as a way for people to submit donations or use Cash app, use Venmo, use PayPal, whatever you want to use. But again, these micro payments and no one's controlling this. This is another thing. You can't have your PayPal account closed, you can't have your Venmo, PayPal can close your account, venmo, Cash app, they can all close your accounts if they think something shady is going on. This is basically almost foolproof and it's decentralized from that aspect. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:46:08 So I come from a family of stockbrokers and I think my grandfather would tell me that if you couldn't buy a pack of gum with cryptocurrency, you probably shouldn't get too involved in it. However, I'm beginning to hear, especially in the podcast space, that there's some real social value to being able to send some money to Pot News if you get something valuable from them or to you guys at the New Media show. And to have that thanks come back, it's great social value. Todd Cochrane (Guest) 00:46:37 I'm getting more comments coming in via Boost than I do via email, so it's really easy for someone that's listening to a podcast episode and this is what's actually happening. People are in fountain and say, oh my goodness, and they hit the lightning button and they put their boost amount in 500,000 SATS, whatever it is, and said, love your comment about this. Here's an example, here's one that came in. Hey guys, love the show. A long time listener, first time booster puppy, appreciate the show and all you are doing may have to switch away from Lives in to Blueberry if you get rolling with inputting podcast, two point by the way. Still waiting for so they just went on and on. Your character limited, I think 256 or something like that, but this was like a response to something we're talking about in the show and we don't get those types of emails rarely because it's interactive, it's immediate right in the app. So social value? Yes. And he sent me 15,150 stats at buck 50, so it's beautiful. It's only about 50, todd. Well, there's about 50, there's $2, there's $2. So about $20 for the last episode. So that's more than some people earn in advertising. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:47:58 Podcast movement's coming up. New Media Show going to be doing a live stream again. Are you making any other appearances? Got a booth? Todd Cochrane (Guest) 00:48:07 Yeah, I got a booth where you have a ten x 20 and we have a flat screen up there showing off the new stuff we've introduced at Blueberry over the last year. But I think the thing that we're most excited about is the four announcements that we've made prior to podcast movement. Number one, the integration with Pod Rocket and providing educational materials to podcasters. The integration with the script. A lot of other podcast companies are integrated with them. The only difference is the bonus of using Blueberry is when you use the script with Blueberry and it sends over your media file to us, it also sends the transcript that goes right into the transcript tag and you're going to be able to have that show up on your audio players. The closed caption third piece, obviously is the programmatic advertising launch. And again, the integration with the audio player with closed caption. So I think we'll be talking about all that plus everything else that we've done. And again, we burned down the old interface. We actually took dynamite to it and blew it up and spent really two years rebuilding the entire platform from scratch. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:49:11 Did you get any blowback from listeners? Because it seems like at any time you move someone's cheese, there's always one or two. Todd Cochrane (Guest) 00:49:20 And believe it or not, we had big survey responses. We had probably close to 1000 people give us feedback. And of those feedbacks that we got on the new platform launch, we probably took 20 of those ideas and put them immediately. They went right to the top of the dev stack and implemented changes or enhanced something. And what it really did is I tell my support team track support tickets and where the pain points are. Pain points used to be on boarding. We don't get any of those emails anymore. Pain points were, how do I create my first episode? We don't get those anymore. It's just certain things that were hard for podcasters to do and we spent a lot of time and a lot of meetings. Some of them were feisty in making the decision. But I think the best decision we made was we hired an outside UI developer that was actually a podcaster. They had experience. And her name is Kristy Hollywood. She's out in Salt Lake, Utah. Great UI developer designer, and the new Blueberry was really largely her and my in house graphics employee Aaron Hope, who does all of our current graphics and UI work. So she set the basis and those two work together. And we're really proud because to be honest with you, things were kind of looking old and not the case anymore. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:50:43 We've got me excited for Podcasting 20 and I'm also I can't believe we got nearly to the end of the show and we didn't even talk about a company trying to become the Netflix of podcasting. I think we're past that. Todd Cochrane (Guest) 00:50:55 Yeah, I think we are. I think what we're going to see is there's a lot of commercial interest now with all the money that's coming. Spotify spent nearly a billion dollars. Think about that on podcasting. Amazon and others have spent a lot of money. I think there's more acquisitions coming. I think Amazon's got a target. We talked about it on the new Me show yesterday. We have to remember as a podcasting space that 90% of the space is made up of independent content creators that are at their kitchen table, in their garage, at their friend's house, in a closet, in their spare office, creating content. And they are the ones that make up the core of this community. They don't have commercial support, they don't have producers, they don't have a team. Those are the ones that we want to help bridge. And Tom Webster wrote a great article about this. It sounds profitable a couple of weeks ago about programmatic advertising being the bridge. I've always said that small content creators just need something, whether it be email from their listeners, giving them support and saying thank you for the content, to a little bit of money coming in to show value for their time and bridge them to the point where they can afford to hire someone to help the producer show some edit, someone to do social. I've been lucky enough that I've recruited people within my audience to do some of those jobs. And so it's like they've aligned. They've grown up with the show, they've listened. My executive producer from my personal podcast is like a brother from another mother. He thinks the way I do from a content standpoint. So when he's doing show prep, I come in. Very rarely do I ask any of the things that he's picked because he thinks he's listening to show so long, he knows what I talk about. So it's one of those things where I was able to have money, earn enough money to be able to pay him a couple of $100 he costs every month by paying a regular hourly salary. And it's not slave wages, it's a decent wage. And he does a couple of hours of show prep that are required for each of my shows. Saves me that time. Most podcasters can't do that. So if we can get them some money, some bridge money, to get them to the point where they've grown the show to be sustainable, I think that's key. But again, advertising is not the only thing. There's a dozen different ways to get support, so it's just one of many methods. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:53:27 We've long agreed that Anchor is podcasting cemetery, and they have been for quite a few years. So do you think they get folded into Megaphone or do you have another prediction where you think it goes because Spotify is not marketing it very hard. Todd Cochrane (Guest) 00:53:40 I think they get pulled it into Spotify, I think Anchor goes away. Megaphone will be where they'll send the shows that are doing well on Spotify or the shows that they license, like Rogan. I don't know how Rogan publishes the show, but he's got to have some method within the Spotify platform to do. I don't think he's doing it on Anchor. So we'll see what's going to happen over there again, they're under tremendous financial pressure. And if we go into recession and money tightens up, of course, the latest financial information this past couple of days, it shows. We might not go deep, but we'll see. They've got stockholders to contend with and they spend a billion dollars. They need to make something happen. If they don't, if products aren't making them any money, guess what? They're going to go away. And right now I have a pretty good idea of what Spotify is spending a month. And it's a rounding error for them on anchor. So maybe it's not an issue. Maybe it will be around for a while, but time will tell. And whatever their agenda may be, again, we all have agendas, but we'll see if some other people come into space to start buying up more stuff, time will tell. But again, hopefully there'll be enough of us left to take care of the independent podcast creators. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:54:57 How much does Spotify represent for downloads from Blueberry? Todd Cochrane (Guest) 00:55:01 Oh, it's low. It's no more than 7%. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:55:06 Yeah. Todd Cochrane (Guest) 00:55:07 And some are higher. But I think what it also is, Blueberry attracts content creators that are in this for the long haul businesses. Our persona of listeners is really people that are truly focused on building a long, sustainable show. The shows that started Blueberry are at Blueberry a long, long time. We still have a lot of failures out of the gate just like everyone else does. But those that get started and go stay with us a long, long time. Return rate is very, very low, whereas some of the others in the space that have higher percentages on Spotify are actually attracting a little bit of a different demographic. But those shows from what we've seen in our data, are short fuse. Their turn rate is really high. So those companies have to spend an incredible amount of advertising money to basically keep up for the people that are leaving to keep their revenue growing. So it's really based upon creators, the type of creators are using each platform. And we really worked hard to track those that really don't want to do too much. Just have a landing page that's fine as well. So we put some time in there to make sure we satisfy that demographic of content creators as well that don't think they need a website. But again, I say oftentimes to be able to start that way, two, three months in they're like, oh, I should do this. And we have a way to graduate them into office, solitary landing page into their own because we give every customer free WordPress site that gets a hosting account. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:56:37 Every time I listen to the new media show and you talk about how you don't have a lot of Spotify listeners, I'm like, I think I'm your one. Todd Cochrane (Guest) 00:56:44 Well, a new media show, it's almost like you're one of few that listen on Spotify. And I think that because we have podcasters listening to the show. Most podcasters are using some podcast app. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:57:00 So over my shoulder is a degree from Acadia University, and over the other shoulder is the blank spot. You can see where the PhD from listening to the new media show is supposed to go. How do I get it, and how much more do I have before I graduate? Todd Cochrane (Guest) 00:57:14 Well, why don't you create the certificate for me and get it designed and donate it to the show? And then we'll use that, and Rob and I will sign it and you get it sent back. I think you've been listening long enough. You've got your PhD in podcasting. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:57:28 I don't think so. After all this Podcasting 2.0, it hurts my head, too. Todd Cochrane (Guest) 00:57:34 We had a big team meeting last week where I brought the team in from all over the country, and I said, we're going to talk about Podcasting 2.0. And privately, we had some people come in and talk to us about that. Well, not privately. You can put it on the show. But my team was really like, some of it is a lot. It is. And again, we have to get it so that it's for the person that doesn't know how to left click their mouse. We've got to get it to the point where they can execute on this and not have their brain fog over with, like, what am I looking at? It's got to be easy. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:58:08 I feel I'm years away from the PhD still. Todd Cochrane (Guest) 00:58:11 Maybe me too. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:58:13 Todd, looking forward to seeing you at Podcast Movement and all the announcements. This is exciting stuff. And thanks for catching me up on Podcast 2.0. Todd Cochrane (Guest) 00:58:20 Absolutely. Thanks for having me. Tara Sands (VO) 00:58:22 The Sound Off podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski. Social Media by Courtney Krebsbach. Another great creation from the soundoff media company. There's always more at soundoffpodcast.com.

Jeff Winskell is a bit of an anomaly in radio. Most folks attend university courses specifically tailored to broadcast, which leads them into the industry naturally, but Jeff went from film student to radio show producer in just a few years. In this episode, we talk about exactly how that transition went, as well as the lengthy radio career he created for himself afterwards. Jeff's been a large-scale program director all across Canada, from Vancouver to Ontario, working with big names like Virgin and Bell Media. He's also been recognized for his work more than most- He has a total of 13 nominations for Canadian Broadcast Industry Awards, with 5 of those being wins (Station of the year, 2x Music Director of the year, and 2x Program Director of the year). Jeff and I discuss the path he took across the nation, the differences he found between the East and West, and the logistics of being in charge of 21 radio stations at the same time. Yes, you read that right. As of right now, he's taking a break from radio, and finally going back to his university roots as a camera operator. And as if his story wasn't crazy enough already, he's also got his own woodworking business on the side, making beautiful live-edge tables and home décor. He's a self-described jack-of-all-trades, master of none, but I'd argue his mountain of broadcasting awards says otherwise. To connect with Jeff, check him out on LinkedIn, or consider picking up something from his woodworking shop, WoodXperts Furniture. It's not every day you get to buy a table hand-crafted by a broadcasting legend. Transcript: Tara Sands (VO) 00:00:01 The Sound Off podcast. The podcast about broadcast with Matt Cundill starts now. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:01 This week, I speak with Jeff Winskell. He's programmed with Bell Media in St. Catherine's at 97.7 Hits FM, a.k.a. the White House of Rock, and also in interior British Columbia. He's also programmed for Rogers in Vancouver. He has a radio story which didn't start out as a radio story. I love these kind of stories. Jeff Winskell, along with his Australian cattle dog Scully, listening quietly in the background, joins me from Richmond, BC, where we start with a line from a Robbie Robertson song. Just some people grow up wanting to get on the radio, and for others, the wind kind of pushed them there. And I'm here to say that I'm guessing it's the latter with you. Is that true? Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:00:52 Yeah, it absolutely is. I always had a love for radio. My parents were television producers. They actually worked for Rogers back in the 80's, and they produced a lot of local programming here when Rogers used to have many community television stations around the lower mainland. So I grew up in the television business, but my parents did a lot of programming that was music related. Beyond Rogers, they did interview segments with artists and comedians and all kinds of people for MTV, Much Music, CBC. So I actually grew up around a lot of radio people because my parents were producers, they were camera operators, they were editors, but they utilized radio hosts as their interviewers for a lot of these segments. So I got to know a fellow named Jerry O'Day, who, you may know, a bit of a West Coast legend out here. And I've known Jerry my entire life. I call him Uncle Jerry. And that kind of plays into my story a little bit later down the line. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:45 So it's interesting because I sort of said, oh, the wind kind of pushed me there, and I really wasn't prepared for an interview with, really, you're a second generation broadcaster and you grew up in a household with broadcasters. So what's that like? Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:01:58 It was wild. I mean, we spent a lot of our time as children running around television stations and being dragged out to shoots. And at a young age, still in single digits, we were coiling cables and logging tapes back when that was still a major thing you had to do before you had to do your linear editing. So it was pretty wild. I mean, my parents being leaders, producers and whatnot, the crew parties were often at our house once they wrapped a shoot Friday night. Our place was the place to come hang all the especially the young single men in broadcasting that didn't have family in the area and stuff. Our house was just this sort of meeting place for all these different broadcasters. It was pretty wild. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:02:44 Anybody famous in your house? Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:02:46 Not really. I mean, just a lot of behind the scenes broadcaster types. And, I mean, people like Jerry O'Day would be hanging out at our house. A lot of the sort of local radio personalities and stuff like that. I got to be along for a lot of these shoots with famous people. My parents interviewed Stevie Ray Vaughan. They interviewed Jay Leno. So I got to tag along for a lot of that stuff. Unfortunately, I can't really say we had any of them over for dinner. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:03:12 And then when you finished high school, you went off to not necessarily university, but an art school. Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:03:17 Yeah, I went to the Art Institute of Vancouver. Burnaby. My dad was actually starting to- he just started teaching there maybe a year or two before teaching everything from film and television to Photoshop courses and things like that. And I really wanted to get into the film business. I wanted to kind of take what I had from television and go a little bit beyond that, more into feature films. And my real goal, sort of in my 510 year plan, was to become a camera operator for feature film and hopefully eventually, you know, become a director or cinematographer. That was where my real passion lay. So with my dad being a teacher there, I actually had a discount on tuition. I had half price tuition, and I thought, you know what? This is perfect to go to Vancouver Film or BCIT for the television broadcast program or anything like that. And it cost me a lot more money. So I had an opportunity, and I knew of some of the teachers that were already there, like a really amazing audio engineer and composer and entertainment lawyer named Jeff Young. So there were people there that I wanted to learn from. So, yeah, fresh out of high school, I went straight to the Art Institute and went into the film program. But the problem was, when I graduated the film program, it was soon after 911. And what ended up happening was the American economy. They're doing everything they can to they could to keep it going. And California started offering massive, massive incentives to productions to stay down south rather than running up to BC. So two thirds of the union guys were out of work. There were guys that had 1015 years doing camera that were doing second assistant camera. So my opportunity to get into the business kind of dried up. I had a line on something before all that happened, and then I found myself with a film degree and not a lot going on. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:05:04 And when we think of the type of film you were studying, again, it's around 9/11, turn of the millennium. What are you learning in school about shooting film? Is it digital, or are we still using tape? Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:05:16 At the time, it was tape, but it was going digital. So it was when we were getting into the mini DV format, for example, that was kind of the popular format to be using in film school, especially since real film was so expensive. There were a few projects that we did on 16 millimeter, but most of the stuff was centered around digital. The Sony and the cannons that had fantastic cameras at the time that you could put through some good color correction and filtering and make it look like it was filmed. So, yeah, we were mainly learning the digital platforms. We were learning compositing special effects, we learned copyright law. It was kind of an all encompassing course, which is really good. You even learned the basics of being a PA on a film set. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:06:00 And we're on the cusp of HD. I mean, I still think you're two or three years away, but I think that you, being in the film industry, knew that high definition was on the way. Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:06:09 Yeah, absolutely. So we got to play with some of the new technology that was coming down, but we didn't have access to it as students. Pretty much everything we were working with was Mini DV based, which is still a great format. I mean, the resolution on that was quite amazing from sort of the previous level of cameras in that range that were the highest stuff. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:06:29 What was your first job after graduation? Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:06:32 So, after graduation, it's kind of funny. So this is where it kind of leads me down the path towards radio. I was struggling to find work. I was taking on the odd production job for my parents company, but even their business was very slow. Worked on an independent film as a volunteer camera operator. I was doing that kind of stuff. And so Jerry O'Day had at the time, he was program director, morning showman and music director for 650 CI, the oldest station here in Vancouver, which was standard radio at the time. And he had a side business with another radio guy, Matthew McBride. And their side business was a voice tracking company for small markets. It was a little bit ahead of its time when this was happening early. Two thousand s. And so they were producing shows that would be sold to small markets and be able to fill time slots that they didn't necessarily have the budget to fill. And Jerry and Matthew, you needed help with some web stuff. I mean, those guys are both great radio guys, but they didn't have the skills to build a website and stuff. So I started helping them build a presence online. And we were actually meeting every Sunday at a place called O'Hares Pub here in Richmond. And it's a great little spot, great neighborhood atmosphere, Irish pub. And one day I came in and sat down. There were already beers on the table, as there often was at these meetings. And Matthew, at the time, he was managing cluster stations in the Nimo that was independently owned at the time, central Island Broadcasting, that's been bought by Jim Paterson group since. But he was general managing that group. And he said to me, Jeff, I know you're looking for work, you're struggling right now. I've got a job as a copywriter in Nanaimo that I'm having trouble filling. And I know you can write copy. Maybe you haven't done 30-second radio commercials, but I know you can do it. Do you want to come out for 30 days? If you don't like it, you can head on home. No hard feelings. If you like it, you can stick around. So literally the next week, I packed up my futon and all my clothes into my 75 Dodge Dart and took the ferry over to Nanaimo and started as a copywriter, which would have been 2003, I believe. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:08:46 And that's a pretty nice part of the planet, and it's a pretty nice job. I know a few people who have been in that spot, I think, actually at that radio station. And it's still a pretty good gig if you can get it. Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:08:57 Yeah, I mean, the one thing I will say, that's kind of the downside. Maybe the staffing levels are better than they were, but we had two writers for, I think it was about six stations in total, if I remember correctly. And so many of these are local clients, very few national clients, and a lot of them are running weekly sales or changing their copy of either every week or every month. And we were sometimes writing 30, 40 spots a day, which can get a little tiring. And at the time, I was making $8 or $9 an hour. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:09:26 So what are you thinking about when you're writing this? Because now you're doing this writing for radio. So here's somebody who's in the film, learns about film, very visual, very visual. And now you've got to change the visual aspect of the whole thing and write for people's. Theater of the mind. Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:09:41 I wish I could say there was a lot of opportunity to do that, but in reality, it was very price point type ads. This is what's on sale. This is what it costs this week. There wasn't a lot of opportunity to be very creative. And there was another writer there who is 20 years my senior, who is a brilliant radio guy as well, and he would often be the guy to write the More Theater the mind spot. So as much as I have a year of copywriting under my belt for my first year in radio, I would never claim to be a great copywriter simply because of that fact that I never really got the opportunity to really explore that until later in my career. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:10:18 But sometimes the genius is keeping all that information down below 30 seconds. Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:10:23 Absolutely. Especially when you got these small market clients that are adding in extra sentences when the spots are already time to 30. And now you've got 45 seconds of copy, and you're going back and forth with this client who's insisting that all this information is in there. And that really strengthened my customer service skills to be able to work with some pretty tough business owners that are very insistent, yet I've still got to get this down to 30 seconds. And some of that stuff was networked as well. So if that spot wasn't time to exactly 30 seconds, the back end might get chopped off. So trying to balance the two of making the client happy, getting all the information and that they want with our time constraints and needing to keep things to 30, it was quite challenging. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:11:04 I guess you stayed longer than 30 days. Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:11:06 I did, yeah. Stayed for a full year. And to be frank, at the end of the year, I was feeling a little burnt out. I was making barely $9 an hour and feeling pretty burnt out. Having a conversation with my dad at the time and he had a bunch of projects coming up that we're going to pay $30 an hour. And so I gave them my notice and came on back to Vancouver to work on some projects. And that was a lot of fun while it lasted. But again, those kind of dried up and I started looking for work again. And that's when I got another call from Jerry O'Day, who said he was looking for a show producer at 650 Seat. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:11:42 And you started producing a show? Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:11:45 Well, not right away. So I actually started producing for Red Robinson. So I took over the Red Rock Diner on Sunday afternoons. It was noon before. Red is such an amazing guy to work with. He's a legend. He's in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. He's one of the pioneers of rock and roll radio, and he's just one of the most kind guys ever. It was a really cool way to enter a major market building because a guy like Red, I had a person train me, quote unquote, on the board, which the training lasts maybe an hour. And then they said, all right, have a great day and walk out the door. So I'm still intimidated here. I'm pushing buttons when I shouldn't and all kinds of stuff. And Red was the kind of guy who would come into the studio after doing that and go, don't worry, kid, you're going to get this, man. You're going to get this. Just keep focusing. You're going to get this. No problem. He was that kind of guy. I remember working, opting for other people in the next few years that you hit the button at the wrong time and they're flying off the handle on you the minute they're off the air. Right. But Red was just not that guy. And that's something that really stuck with me my entire career, was the way that Red was just relentlessly positive with me. Yeah. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:13:00 I also get the feeling when I hear you tell the story of Red encouraging you that he's telling you he knows that it's challenging and there's an art to it and there's some finesse and it's kind of like driving a race car and flying an airplane and going to the moon all at once. Which it is when you're working with somebody like him on a station like that. Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:13:20 So for a little more context, just on the challenge of operating his show, probably about anywhere from a half to two thirds of the music that he was playing on his show, because it was a specialty show, wasn't in the system. So I'm running CD card decks. It's like the old days. I'm stacking up all these records well, CDs, even though we still called them records at the time, and I'm playing the odd song out of the machine. Then there's a placeholder for a song that's got to be played off a CD, and then half the time those old denim CD cards wouldn't fire. So it was beyond just the sort of taking it out of auto and hitting the button when you're supposed to. There was a lot of juggling and focus involved in that show. So it was pretty challenging for a newbie to step into something like that without much training at all. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:14:06 And those records are under three minutes. All of them? Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:14:10 Yeah, one of the shortest ones. Red would always use this to time up at the back of the show if he needed a record that was just a little over a minute. Long Sunshine, Lollipops and Rainbows the amount of times you'd hear that song at the back end of the Red Rock Diner says probably one in four shows. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:14:29 And you're inside a building that has Z 95. And you wound up on that station, too, right? Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:14:35 I did. So after about three months of producing Red's show, I became Jerry Odysse morning show producer as well. So at this point, I was working 5 hours a day, monday to Friday with Jerry and then working Sunday afternoons with Red. I just started picking up everything I could with the radio station. I was producing talk shows for some of the paid talk programming that was happening on the Am station in the evenings and the early morning weekends. I was doing promotions. I was setting up broadcast lines and remotes tear down, all that kind of stuff. So I was doing basically every single thing I could. And I really wanted to get into music. Music has been one of my biggest passions as well. I've played music most of my life, my first guitar, my 7th birthday. So music was really where I wanted to go with it. And Jerry at the time, and I loved this man to bits, but he was a little bit protective of me doing other things. He wanted me to focus on the show and not be doing all these millions of other things. And he had taught me to reconcile logs, so I would go through all the paper logs and delete or add in the songs that were changed on the logs. But I wanted to do more. And Jerry was a little bit holding me back a little bit from doing that stuff because he wanted me to focus on the show. But I was talking with Gary Russell at one point. He was our general manager at the time, and Gary was a great general manager. And he said, Jeff, what do you want to do with yourself? You're doing all these million different things. What do you really want to do? He said, I love to get into music. I would love to be a music director, but I'm having troubles getting opportunity to get on selector at the time. And Gary said to me, you know what, for the next little while, I'm going to go and unlock his door. He leaves at about one or 02:00 every day. I'm going to go unlock his door. You go in there and you play around and you self teach yourself. Just don't fuck anything up. I'll have a conversation with Jerry, but this is how we're going to start it. So you go and you start messing around. Just don't screw anything up. So I just started staying late and unpaid hours is just self teaching selector. And then when we implemented Music Master, I was right in there and absolutely love Music Master, still do to this day. I love it so much that Malcolm Sinclair from Music Master has become one of my great friends in radio because I spent so much time on the phone with him. And then we just became so close. So I really just dove hard into the music thing. And the opportunity for me to really get into music and start working with Z 95 came when Astro Media bought the radio station out. Gary retired very quick after I don't know if that was his choice or not, but he retired very quick after that. And Kira K at the time was the music director for Zed, and she just announced that she was off to, I think it was Calgary at the time. I think it was vibe. So Brad Phillips came in as our new general manager, and very soon after that, Eric Samuels was shown the door. And we had no program director and we had no music director. And so Brad saw the skills that I had with Music Master and basically tapped me to be the temporary music director for Z 95. Actually, it was in its brief history as 95 Crave at the time. Basically, Brad told me, this could be months, we're going to fill your old job. So I was now in a position where I'm in a temporary role as music director. They're filling my old job. I might not have any job once this all progresses. It took them months to hire the new program director, which was Ronnie Stanton, imported from Australia, of course. And Ronnie and I worked together for about four or five months before I finally said to him, hey, man, I need to know if this is permanent or not. Otherwise there are other opportunities that are coming up that I should probably pursue since I have no job to go back to. And he had a contract on my desk within a week. And I became the permanent music director for Zed, which we quickly launched to Virgil Radio that January. Wow. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:18:27 So you got into a rebranding situation fairly quickly. Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:18:30 Absolutely. Yeah. I'm six, eight months into being a music director with a lot of APD roles as well, without the title, helping with scheduling, all those kinds of things. And here we were rebranding a radio station which was so much fun to be involved with. Little interesting because the rebrand was working within. Virgin has all these really real brand standards that you have to adhere to. So it wasn't just all of our concepts in the boardroom that get executed. You got to do things the way that Virgin does things as well. So it was a wild experience. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:19:03 Are you also in the building at the time when Astral gets purchased by Bell and then you have this long period, I think it might have gone like a year and four months before it even got approved. Are you part of that shit show? Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:19:15 Yeah. So basically this is another kind of interesting part of my story, just to give a little bit of more background to it. So Mark Burley, who was in Cologne at the time, he would come down and visit us regularly and Mark would always come in and sit in with me and watch how I was programming the radio station. We were doing things a little bit different from most programmers. We were hand placing every single song and element on the log. So Mark would come in and sit in with me and watch how we do things. And him and I started to develop a relationship. And Mark called me about a job opportunity in Colonial. So this is now about four years into me being a music director there. He had a job opportunity for me as the assistant regional program director, the music director for SunFM, and the program director for Am 1150, the news talk sports station with Bell there. I was thinking at the time, this feels like a lateral move. It was a heck of a lot more responsibility with a lateral move financially. So I was leaning away from taking it, even though I really would have liked to work with Mark and whatnot. I was two years into a relationship with my now wife, who I met at Virgin Radio, actually. And I had somebody come to me and say, hey, Jeff, you need to take that job. What do you mean? Well, you're not going to have a job in a few months if you don't. They were working towards one of their plans of reducing staff, and apparently I was on the list they didn't have room for a full time music director anymore, and they ended up combining the shift with one of the on air announcers. So one of the on air announcers, Taylor Jukes, who is a fantastic programmer now in Miami. She was mid days at the time, and she took over the music director role. So I did take the job on. That person advice, thankfully ended up in Kelowna, and it was right around that time that the transition happened to Belle. I think I was in Kelowna for a few months before the transition actually happened. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:21:15 In just a second, more with Jeff as he heads east first to Kelowna and then to St. Catherine's. And if for some reason you've grown tired of our dulcet tones in your ears, you can grab a transcription of this show and read the rest of it on our website at soundoffpodcast.com. Mary Anne Ivison (VO) 00:21:32 Transcription for the Sound Off podcast is powered by Poddin. Your podcast is an SEO goldmine. We help you to dig out. Start your free trial now at Poddin.io. Tara Sands (VO) 00:21:32 The Sound Off podcast. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:21:46 You are you get to Kelowna you weren't sure at first, but you're working with Mark Burley, so what could possibly go wrong? Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:21:53 It was an amazing experience. Working with Mark is one of my absolute favorite times in my entire career. Mark and I have different styles in many regards, but the same styles in many regards as well. I learned a hell of a lot from Mark. He's a great coach. I've watched all the talent that he's coached. I'm good friends with many people who have worked under him, whether it was at the same time I was there or not. And it was just such a great time in my career to learn from an awesome programmer. And we had Don Shaffer there as our general manager, who was a tough guy to work for sometimes, but he was fantastic as well. Brilliant guy, and then just so many great people that I was getting to work alongside with. Gord Visuti, who is our news director, brilliant news guy. Phil Johnson on the morning show There there's just so many great talents in that cluster for a small market to have such great talent, not just in that building, but the other buildings as well. It was a bit of an eye opener. I wasn't sure what to expect getting there. I always heard kind of the crap talk about small markets understaffed beginner talent, and a lot of that building wasn't that I got to work with Andy and TJ on Easy Rock and Kevin and Sonya on Sun FM. There's just so many great talents in that building. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:23:08 I mean, I brought this up a few times, and a lot of past have gone through Cologna for a small market. Oh, I did my small market time in Cologne. I mean, that's like saying I went camping at the Holiday Inn in many. Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:23:21 Regards, it is I will say cologne. The one major downside is just the cost of living there is so high. But wow, what a great place to go cut your teeth on the air if you're a newbie. It's in my opinion, probably the best small market that you could wind up in to grow your jobs. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:23:40 Yeah, I think that's been well established with the number of people who have gone through. I would also like to give a shout out to Fort McMurray. Again, expensive. The wine is not nearly as good in Fort McMurray and the price of everything is triple everything. But still, it's a great place to go get radio experience. Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:23:56 Absolutely. Listenership in Fort Mac is pretty high. There's a lot of people listening to radio there. You can be a celebrity in a small town there if you're on the air. I know a lot of people have gone through there. I have hired people who have been through Fort Mac night and day, living style compared to Colonial. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:24:15 So is this a place where you're really picking up a lot of management experience even if you're just watching? Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:24:22 Yeah, I will say I wasn't just watching because I had the PD, the news talk station, which is quite an experience for a 30 year old guy who's managing half the team were north of 55, 60. So I was getting the experience there with some great people, but also just being able to watch Mark do his thing. Like that's the kind of education you just can't pay for because, you know, a lot of the great coaches are not teaching. There are some great, great radio people that are teaching, like Bruce Gilbert Out East and Niagara, what a great programmer he is. But yeah, you can't buy that kind of teaching. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:24:55 Well, speaking of Out East, cause Bruce Gilbert did the White House of Rock and 97, seven Hits FM and that's eventually where you wound up, right? Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:25:03 Yeah. So Bruce is a good segue on this. So while I was in Colonial, I wasn't there too long before I got a call from Bob Harris, who was the general manager there at the time. And Bob and I were talking about the PD role for Hits that was open and we were pretty far along in the process to the point where we were at the offer stage when Bob called me and said, you know what, you are our number one, until we had one of our former program directors come out of the woodwork that is interested in coming back. So unfortunately, you're now our number two and we're going to go with this other fella who it turned out was Bruce. Bruce and his wife Sarah were moving back down from Ottawa, I believe it was at the time. And so Bruce came back to PD Hits and fast forward to 2014 and Bruce decided to head off to Niagara College to teach radio program there. And Bob called me back and said, jobs open again. You want to come out? So that's how I ended up out of the White House of Rock. What an experience that was. It's another one of my favorite times in my career there. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:26:06 So I have negotiated for that position before, and I don't know what you put in your offer ask, but I asked for Buffalo Bills season tickets. What did you ask for? Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:26:17 What did I ask for? I think I asked for about five grand more than what they had offered me. And it would surprise me if buffalo Bills tickets if that would have killed the opportunity for you because I don't think they're very expensive at the time. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:26:30 No, it won't. And everybody would know exactly where to find me on Sunday at 01:00. I mean, listen, it's a remarkable radio station in a remarkable part of the planet, st. Catherine's, Ontario. What was your experience like at the White House of Rock? Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:26:45 Oh, man, it was so wild. I mean, I walk in there and I've got Bigs and Bar and pasty Jamie on Mornings and what a team they are. I think it took a little while for me to build a rapport with them and have some respect and whatnot. Again, I'm some kid coming in, managing some folks who all have some years on me, and it was challenging the first couple of months. I have an amazing relationship with them now. We built quite an amazing relationship. They're some of my favorite people to work with. I got to bring in Jesse Mods, who's now mornings on CJ and Calgary. He was my afternoon drive guy. And Jesse is just one of the best in the biz, in my opinion. He's so fantastic to work with. He kind of has the same attitude as me as this relentlessly positive attitude. So Jesse would sometimes step over the line and get a CVSC complaint and him and I would have a conversation in my office. And they were one of the most easy conversations to have with an announcer on a complaint like that and just so incredibly talented. And Paulie Morris, like, wow, what a guy. The guy is such a legend, and he deserves legend status. He's one of the best music guys in the biz, hands down, and one of the most kind human beings. He's just such an amazing guy. You just go out for a beer for him and you want to just keep having more beers because you want to keep hearing more stories and just spending more time with the guy. It's just amazing. So the experience of the White House of Rock was awesome, and I got to work alongside Sarah Cummings. At the time, she was the PD for Kayla and Hamilton and Ez. Rock in St. Catherine's Niagara. She's an amazing person, great programmer. This is my first time working with a programmer who came up through the promotion side rather than the programming side of things, and she was amazing at what she does. And Lisa Peters there as well. She was promotions director, who has now replaced Sarah Cummings in the group program director role there. So St. Catherine's is just one of those places where there are so many great people there. It's kind of like cologne that way. I've been really lucky to work in markets where it might be a smaller medium market, but wow, the talent and 610 CKTB. The hosts over there. Tim Dennis, Tom McConnell, Larry Fedora, who's now gone, kevin Jack, Bonnie. Heslop on the news side. They're all star teams there. They're just amazingly talented people and just fantastic humans. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:29:08 Not a coincidence, I think, that again, you have wound up in a market where there's a lot of wine. Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:29:14 It's funny because when I got the job offer for St. Catherine's, I actually called my aunt who lives up in Ottawa. I said. Hey, Jill, what's St. Catherine's like? And she said, well, on the bright side, you're moving from one wine country to the other. It's really beautiful. But Jeff, I think it's a little more blue collar than you're used to, being a Vancouver and Kelowna boy. So she kind of warned me a little bit about it being a very different city. But my wife and I, we fit it right in. Love the area. Great craft breweries, big craft beer guy. I like my wine, too. I'm not very educated on it. Most of the time I spent at wineries down there was when my aunt was down for a visit. But you can never get sick of rolling hills and vineyards. It's just a beautiful site. Whether you're a wine guy or not, it's just beautiful site. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:29:59 I think one of the best things about 97 seven Hits FM has been its durability. And I think he kind of answered the question by talking about his blue collar roots. And you got Buffalo on one side, you've got Q and the Edge coming in on the other side, and then you've got Rock stations and Hamilton in your face. And here's the radio station going untethered through the entire process for three decades. Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:30:23 Yeah, it's funny because under leadership of the company, the programming leadership, there was not a lot of attention paid to Rock. Us rock guys were kind of almost left to our own devices. And so in other experiences, other roles, especially in the Top 40 side, I might have a VP calling me or format leader calling me, going, hey, why did you add that record? I never had a single phone call anywhere along those lines while working with Hits and leaving it up to myself and Paulie Morris and the rest of the team to all be involved. We had an open music meeting. Anyone and everyone was allowed to come to it. Even if you weren't on the Hits side, you're allowed to come and have your say and we got that radio station back up to number 125 54, and we were often beating Why Want to Wait in the Hamilton Diary market as well. We had great numbers in Toronto, although we weren't paying for that anymore to see it, so we couldn't really monetize stuff up there. It was just incredible. You drive the Hits cruiser downtown Toronto and people are yelling at you on the street. Yeah, it's fabric on. It was a ton of fun. You said untethered, and that's kind of what it was. We were just left to our own devices and we won some station awards. We won morning show awards. Jesse Mauds got his Alan Waters Young Broadcaster award. We did some really great things in the few years that I was there. It was a ton of fun. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:31:51 Oh, like the Tragically Hip scalper bit. Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:31:54 Yes, that was a Jesse Maude thing, and that was one of the most wild things I'd ever seen. He got that featured on competing rock stations across the country. US stations played it, it was featured on US broadcast television even. It was absolutely wild. We just really felt the passion for that band and the anger that came along with someone trying to make money off a dying man's last tour. And that actually is what sparked. We did the hippiest Canada Day ever and rebranded to Hip FM for the day and played the entire discography of the tragically Hip from front to back, chronological order with inserting a whole bunch of different interview snippets and live cuts, all kinds of stuff. It was one of the coolest days in radio that I've ever had. Kudos to Polly and the whole team there, because everybody put in a ton of work on that. But without a guy like Poly Morris in the music chair, you can't pull something like that off to the level that we pulled it off. We saw our streaming numbers spike by, I think it was like 20 or 30 times, and we already had really good streaming numbers at the time, but we were getting streamed all across the country on Canada. It was pretty wild. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:33:13 What do you think when you hear the news or you read that 610 CKTB didn't have anybody show up for their morning show a few months ago? I mean, you're in the building, so that's weird. Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:33:26 It is weird. There's probably just a miscommunication somewhere. One of the things that's really been challenging for them, I'm sure, since my time there. While I was there, we had to eliminate one of our four talk show hosts and we started piping in stuff from either Toronto or Ottawa since then. Larry Fedora was also shown the door. So they're down to two hosts there, as far as I know. I think maybe three, but it's such a slim operation and there's not a lot of people available to fill in who know the market. And if you've got someone lined up to fill in, and all of a sudden they've got covet and you don't have the gear to quickly set them up for a home broadcast. It's that challenge that comes back to constantly reducing staffing levels and something goes sideways with someone, you're stuck, you're taking CFRB or something else. And one of the problems with that is you can get CFRB across the lake in St. Catherine, so all you become is a repeater for a station that's already coming in fairly clear. So it's one of the sad state of the industry of seeing reduction in staffing levels. But I get it too. I've seen the decline in financials year to year to year, so I don't have all the right answers. I just know it's a sad situation for the business to be in this kind of situation. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:34:45 Yeah. I guess what I'm saying is, I didn't think it would ever happen to us. When I think of radio, I think, oh, okay, the phone call is coming. Nobody's coming at six. I'm the PD, I'm now the host, and I'll be there at 610. And I think we're used to it always working that way, and it doesn't really work that way anymore. And we've seen festivals canceled across the country. Montreal couldn't put on a pride parade. We don't need to talk about Pearson. It's really everything in the labor market. And I just didn't think, this is where I feel radio is mortal. And I thought it was immortal to this sort of stuff, because let's face it, everybody, they want to be on the radio except for this particular day at this particular station. Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:35:24 Yeah. And you know, I think the willingness to move people see the odd person who might have had that opportunity to start in a major market and grow their entire career in a major market that is so rare and so many people are not willing to go to Fort Mack or Left Bridge, Alberta, and put in some time in a smaller market and really develop the talent. I also think that we've sabotaged a lot of the opportunity for people to cut their teeth on the air. So we kind of took away a lot of those opportunities. And I was even seeing that before I left Vancouver to go to Colonial the first time, we no longer had these late night shifts that were live no longer had live weekends. I mean, Ronnie actually did a good job of bringing some of that back with some live weekends and things like that, but the opportunities were kind of disappearing for, say, a BCIT student or a Columbia Broadcasting student to come in and do an internship. So we actually started a program called the Honor Boot Camp, where I put them through two weeks of offer voice tracks that would get critique every single shift. We'd critique everyone. Every day they go in and record a new one, so that for two weeks, two weeks of voice tracking that would actually go to air in overnights and then two weeks of coming in and doing overnights live. So over six weeks we could grow or at least see the potential for growth in some of these young students. And that was the kind of opportunity that also gave them great air check content to be able to send out demos. So I brought that program along with me to Colona. I brought it to Hits FM. We just don't have enough of that stuff these days. And I understand PDS are really stretched in taking on more than they ever have, but we've also got to commit to making time to grow the young talent. It's kind of a double edged sword. There is an issue of maybe commitment levels, willing to move, all those kinds of things, expecting a big job right out the gates of school to the industry not having enough opportunities. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:37:24 And you move again after this because now you moved twice. You went from Colona now to St. Catherine's and you head back to British Columbia, which is probably a move that brings you closer to home. Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:37:34 It is. And you know, David Corey was our VP of Programming at the time and I had been expressing to him that my wife and I want to start a family. We want to do it on the West Coast, doesn't need to be Vancouver, but we'd like to get back to BC, or at least close to BC. And David was really good about telling me, listen, Jeff, I want you to hang in there. We're going to find that opportunity for you. When something opens up out west, we're going to get you back out west. I don't want to lose you. He was really great about assuring me that there was something coming that I didn't need to leave the company to get back out west. And it was a very bittersweet phone call to get the call that, hey, this is the opportunity. One of my mentors, Mark Burley, he's shown the door and I'm being tapped to come out and replace them. It was incredibly bittersweet because of my love for Mark, my relationship with Mark, obviously not wanting to see him be shown the door. Never expected a guy like him to be shown the door either. I mean, that was quite a shock to all of us. But I also wasn't going to turn down the opportunity to come back out over my personal relationship with Mark. So it was a very bitter, bittersweet kind of situation. But we took it on and we went driving back across the country. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:38:49 Well, I'm glad you mentioned Mark because I wanted to bring this up because Marty Forbes was on this podcast a few weeks ago and talking about a number of things that get taken away from radio that really you shouldn't take away. And sometimes I think, listen, not everybody can do this forever. But I think when you take away someone like Mark Burley, you're making the business poorer, you're making the art of doing radio just a little bit less. So I can totally understand what you're saying. And of course it's weird to go back and replace the master, as it were. Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:39:21 Yeah, it was very tough and it's sad when you see people like that not in the business anymore. I mean, I know Mark's really happy, him and I still communicate and he's happy doing what he's doing, he's loving life. But the industry lost one of the greats. I mean, he's coached so much great talent over the years. It's a shame that he's not coaching full time, working for various media groups on a contract basis even. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:39:48 Yeah, I mean, listen, we asked the question to somebody who works at a corporation are you better with this person or without? They look at the salary, they say without and you and I can have the discussion go oh, well, with of course, yeah. Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:40:00 I mean, it looks a lot different on a line item on your salary sheet. Right. And I can see how some people have to look at it from that perspective because that's their job. It's just too bad that those decisions have to be made. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:40:14 And then you're in charge of 21 radio stations. How does that work? Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:40:19 Well, it works with a lot of support and a lot of local APDs or program directors in various markets. So as much as your regional program director for 20 plus radio stations, the focus of that role really is the Okanagan. Naturally there's all kinds of work that has to be done to support the other markets like the Terrace Hub, the Fort Mack, Hub Trail, Nelson, BC kind of area. There's kind of sectioned out with some really great people that are leading those teams. And when I got back there with some people moving on and whatnot, I had the opportunity to give some other folks in that cluster the opportunity to do more. For example, Amy Gilbert, who's now actually the Mark Burley or the Jeff Winskill of colonial. She was doing music and afternoons in Nelson and so we managed to promote her into manage the Penticton Group as program director shannon Carr later on. Shannon Carr is a great talent as well. She's a host on Easy Rock and she got promoted into being the music director. There's lots of great people there that we got to promote into management opportunities, leadership roles and that's the way that I think that whole cluster should really operate. It should be basically a farm team, a combination of really great talents who want to stay there forever and people who are looking to move and move their way up and take on more opportunities. I can't remember where we started on that one, but so many great people, right? And my mind starts going, yeah, well, that's it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:41:55 Like I said, how do you keep track of 21 radio stations? It's like, okay, we're off track a little bit because there's so much going on, but how many kilometers did you put on a vehicle that year? Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:42:04 You know, what's funny is not a whole heck of a lot, because, again, with the reduction of spending that was happening, most of the travel budget had been yanked. And so in the two years that I was in that role, I was out in the Nelson Trail area twice. I never got budget to go up to Terrace or go up to Fort McMurray. So you're doing a lot of video calls. There are some folks that I managed that I never got to see face to face. And that's a real shame because I think there's a lot of things missing with building relationships through video. You just can't accomplish everything that you could in person. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:42:42 That is excellent training for a Pandemic, by the way. Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:42:46 It was I think back to it, it was like, wow, this is a lot like what the pandemic was like. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:42:51 And finally you get to go home to Vancouver. Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:42:53 Yeah. So I've been talking to Paul K on and off about some roles that had come up with Rogers over the years. He and I had a couple of meet ups in Toronto for coffee and things like that. And when I saw the role for Jack and Vancouver come up, I emailed him and I said, hey, Paul, if we're going to work together, this is the one. And the process ensued. And a couple of months later, I was coming back to Vancouver. And it's funny you say Bell for 13 and a half, almost 14 years I was there. But it was actually standard radio astral media, Bell Media. But I was essentially with the same company for almost 14 years. So here I was making a big leap, going to a new company, building new relationships with the leadership. So it was intimidating. Also coming to a major market to be a PD for the first time. Obviously, I'd worked in a major market seven years, but to be the leader, it was a little scary, but so much fun. The team there is just amazing. Marcy Mayor, the promotions director, is one of my favorite people in the business. Corporate. Rezer is the national music director for the Jack Group. And now he's PD. And Calgary as well. Just so many great team members there in that building and next door as well. Like Charmaine Silva, the News director for News 1130. She's just spectacular human. I could go on and on about the people in that building. It was fantastic experience working there. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:44:16 So you had two years at Rogers. Can you grade it? Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:44:20 Rogers was very different than the Bell astral standard worlds. The thing that I liked the most, probably about working for the Rogers Group were how accessible Paul K and Julie Adam are. Like, you can call them on evening or weekend or whatever, shoot them a text or call you right back. I had a lot of struggles sometimes getting answers out of people at that level and would often have to go, okay, well, I guess I'm just going to make a decision that I'm not sure about here. But those guys are so accessible. Really great team to work with. I would say, though, that can be a double edged sword as well as they are. Paul, in particular, he's an amazingly intelligent, smart guy that's a lot of fun to work for, but also so involved to a level that I had never had a VP of Programming be that involved in sort of my day to day stuff. So that was a little bit challenging to get used to. But the experience was awesome. It was just a different experience. And I have a lot of respect for Paul and Julie in the way that they run their organization. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:45:23 And then, sadly, came restructuring. Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:45:25 They got an opportunity to bring in Christian Hall, and he's an amazing programmer. And now that we've seen that Kiss has flipped to Sonic alternative rock, it also makes a lot of sense. There was John, who was the PD of Kiss. He was leaving, so when Christian came in, he had to look after both Jack and Kiss now, as well as the national format director role, which was originally Troy Scott, who is based out of Toronto, who had then moved on to CHFI in Toronto. So you can speculate all you want. I mean, for me, I just look at it. You know what? They got a great programmer. They had to make a business decision and no hard feelings. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:46:04 What's the future look like for you? Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:46:06 It's a good question. I have really enjoyed my break from radio. When I first got out, I thought, you know what, I don't know if I'll go back. I was just feeling a little tired and a little bored, actually. But as time goes on, I find myself being very interested in what's going on and missing it quite a bit. I have a woodworking company on the side. Not that I've made any money doing it, but it's a lot of fun. It's always been one of my passions, one of my hobbies. I make farm tables and live edge tables and things like that. It would be nice if that took off and I could get back into radio at the same time. I'm one of those guys that just I'm so not laser focused on one thing ever. Same with hobbies. I just have so many different hobbies. I love boating and being outdoors and woodworking and all kinds of different stuff. I'd like to joke. I'm a jack of all trades and a master of nothing. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:47:01 This is a really odd route you're taking, by the way, to become a cameraman. Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:47:05 Yeah, exactly right. 20 years later. It's funny you say that, Matt, because I had someone approach me just recently about shooting. Sort of a reality kind of thing. Wasn't quite what I'm into on the camera operating level. But it's funny you mentioned that because I haven't had anyone approach me about something like that in a long time until just recently. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:47:23 Hey, Jeff, thanks a lot for being on the podcast. I appreciate it. Jeff Winskell (Guest) 00:47:26 My pleasure, Matt. This was a lot of fun. Tara Sands (VO) 00:47:26 The Sound Off podcast. Written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski. Social Media by Courtney Krebsbach. Another great creation from the the Soundoff media company. There's always more at soundoffpodcast.com.

Jenn Dalen-Gordon is the operations manager for the Interior stations of British Columbia for Stingray Radio. She also oversees about 20 other Country stations under the Real Country and New Country moniker. She was raised on Country 105.1 in Calgary and attended the Southern Alberta Institute of Technology. She worked at Golden West Broadcasting, before the tour of rural Alberta took her to Leduc where she apart of the launch of 88.1 the One, and then to Red Deer where she became program director at 24. In more recent years, Jenn was apart of another impressive launch when Stingray amalgamated their country properties under the banner of Real Country. Since then, they have created a second network brand called New Country. Jenn currently works out of the studios in Kamloops, BC which houses NL Radio (News/Talk), K-97 (Classic Rock), and New Country 103.1. We made mention of a few other people in this show, including Real Country morning show host Randi Chase who was on this program a few years ago. It was a really good episode. As we talked about country music, I thought it would be a good idea to plug my one podcast episode that features a country music artist. I interviewed country superstar Meghan Patrick about her affinity for the Buffalo Bills. Meghan is up for a CCMA award in Calgary next month. TRANSCRIPT Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:00:01 The Sound Off podcast. The podcast about broadcast with Matt Cundill.... starts now. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:10 This week we're going to be talking a little bit about country music in Canada, and we're going to do it with Jenn Dalen-Gordon, who's the operations manager for the BC interior stations for Stingray Radio. You're about to hear the story of someone who grew up listening and loving country music. Her first job was typing in all the metadata to a brand new country radio station and then she became a program director at the age of 24. Country music radio is popular in Canada. Just about every market except Montreal has a country music station that performs reliably. And Jen oversees a lot of radio stations in Stingray's country networks. Jen Daleyn Gordon joins me from the Stingray offices in Canloops, British Columbia, the home of new country 103-1. Tell me about your state experience because Professor Stroobant speaks very highly of you. Jenn Dalen-Gordon (Guest) 00:01:02 I loves SAIT. I actually am pretty convinced that if I didn't go to SAIT, I don't think I would be one where I am or two, maybe even still in radio. It's one of those experiences where it probably hinges so much on the instructors because I had Richard Easily, steve Olson and Louise Ludic at the time, and everything they instilled in me in terms of like, the work ethic and stuff was instrumental and like, you know, we fought short. I've been out of there for over a decade and I can call and text Richard about anything, right? So if I have a problem where I'm trying to work through something, I can call him. He'll answer, he'll tell me the truth, the hard truth sometimes, or he'll make me feel really good about myself. So it works both ways. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:48 Tell me one piece of advice that he gave you that's instrumental I'm only. Jenn Dalen-Gordon (Guest) 00:01:52 Laughing at because I don't know if, you know, it's almost like a cultish thing that exists with fake grass. Do you know about his wristbands that he gives to people like the old Live Strong bands? They're blue and across the band it says, how bad do you want it? And he basically lives and breathes and dies by that same and everything we would do in class, outside of class since I graduated, how bad do you want this? Do you actually want to do this? Because as we all know, this is not easy. I don't think there's anything really easy about the day to day of radio. And so how bad do you want to do this? And every time I'm having a challenge or going through something, I'm like, well, how bad do I actually want this? Do I want to go do something else? It's not as fun, doesn't offer as cool experiences, or do I really want to keep doing this? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:02:40 You went to the University of Calgary. You got a bachelor of communications. Jenn Dalen-Gordon (Guest) 00:02:44 I did. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:02:45 So what's that in between period where you graduate? And then you go to say, did you not think that the Bachelor of Communications would get you the radio gig? Jenn Dalen-Gordon (Guest) 00:02:56 Great question. And at the time, I was 18, right? So I went straight out of high school, did the thing where you go to university, had a literal 18 year old mental breakdown in a statistics class, learning about the poisson theory, going, I don't want to do this. I was going into business. And then that's where I found the communications lane and went, oh, that sounds kind of more interesting. And then I'm the typical radio person. I'm a huge lover of music. So then kind of went down the volunteer route, and I started volunteering at CJSW, which is the campus radio station at the University of Calgary. And I fell in love with that. And then I went, oh, how do I do this for real? And really, the reason why I went UFC and State was because I came to the realization that you could do both. They offer that program, right, where you can do two years at the University of Calgary, you can do two years at State, and then you wind up with a diploma in radio broadcasting, and you wind up with a communications degree, and guess what? You get two. And you only have four years, and you can do it like two for the price of one, basically, which is honestly the only reason I did it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:04:06 Is it safe to say you were raised on Country 105? Jenn Dalen-Gordon (Guest) 00:04:09 Yes, I grew up in Calgary, born and raised Country 105. Listened to that station growing up. I mean, absolutely listen to other stations. My mom is more of a classic rock fan, so classic rock, classic hits like She's, Elton John, Fleetwood Mac, all those types of artists. But country 105, all my friends. Like, that was what we thought were so cool. We get in the car when we turned 16 and turn on 105 and go cruising like you do, like 16 year olds. Then eventually, when we got to be adults, you enter the bar scene, and we got to go to Ranchmans and live our best lives at the Calgary Stampede and all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, I was raised on 105. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:04:48 So what's in your CD collection that is not country? Jenn Dalen-Gordon (Guest) 00:04:52 Fleetwood Mac. I'm a huge Fleetwood Mac fan. I'm also a nineties kid. So there is Backstreet Boys and Britney Spears and In Sync, all those boy bands and pop stars of that era. And then I'm one of these weird people, too, where my music choices are so broad. So then I go into the gym and work out, and I use heavy metal loud type music to run on a treadmill. I'm like, let's do some Metallica. Rob zombie. Let's put on some old school nickelback, like when the actual rockers and like, that type of a thing. So my music collection is very diverse. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:05:27 Yeah, I can see you working out to Living Dead girl. Jenn Dalen-Gordon (Guest) 00:05:30 Yeah, just cranking it up on the treadmill and the weights, lifting heavy and grunting in the back. I'm that person. Maybe some Corn 100%, like that's just real loud in my headphones. Or if I'm at a gym and they put on a playlist, I'm like, Please take some good rock and roll. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:05:49 Tell me about your placement after you graduated from State. Jenn Dalen-Gordon (Guest) 00:05:55 So I was working part time with Golden West because I ended up when I graduated from State, I actually had two university classes that I had to finish. And it's funny, Matt, because I actually went, oh, I'm not going to do it. Whatever. I don't need this. I'm going to go into radio. I was so hungry to get working full time in radio, but Steve Olsen actually sat me down and said, you are two courses away from your degree at this point. Just finish it, just be done with it. And long term, like short term pain, long term gain, radio will still be here when you finish your two courses in like three or four months. Because I did them kind of during summer and online. So I was working part time with Golden West and they had me. I was the cruiser kid. I would do on air shifts. I at one point sat at the front desk because I just wanted to be around a radio station. And then I did a little bit of traffic with that. And then once I graduated from the UFC, I needed a full time radio job. At the time, they didn't have a position, so like, every other kid went on the hunt. And so I ended up getting a call from at the time, Mike McGuire was working up just south of the Edmonton area in the Duke, and they were getting set to launch a brand new radio station. It was country, which again, I grew up in 105. I love country music, so I'm like, this is awesome. And so I ended up applying for the position, which at the time was an on air position and some music role, and I got the gig, which was super exciting. So I moved up to the Duke, Alberta, and I truly believe that the experience of launching a radio station with an independent company has got me to where I am because we had to start from the literal ground up. It's not like when you join a radio station with a major company where they have a music library that they can just import into their market, and it has EOM set and intros. My first day, I sat in the production studio and I said, I like 400 songs. Because we had a music library and we had to put it in the system. Like there was no system. And then we had to build the traffic database. Guess what? I had done a natural log at State, so I got on the phone with a lovely lady and I think she was in Texas on the help line, mary was her name and Mary became my best friend for like three weeks where every day I would call her and we would build traffic clocks. Like I had to build them from scratch and we had to create accounts like we had nothing and then I would go and sit with Mike and we would literally build the music master, like build the clocks, build the coding, everything. And so I was just this brighteyed, fresh, graduated, super excited to do radio kid who just got to absorb literally every component that you needed to build a radio station from the ground up. And so it was an interesting experience but I got to do it kind of got to dabble into everything which I think if I look back where I am now and some of the things I'm doing now I'm like oh that really made an impact because I'm a big believer that to get to the next level you have to understand the foundational building blocks and so that's what I got to do there which was instrumental. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:09:00 I mean it's an incredible story having to put in all those end of time markers and then you're on the phone with Music master and I think I began to have a little bit of a mental switch in my head just hearing about all the shock and awe because you can't import that stuff, you do have to put it in. And so there's two things I do want to unpack though here and the first one is tell me about the one. It's placement. It's in La. Duke Le Duke is close to the airport in Edmonton and then it's country and does it get into Edmonton and was it treated as a rural station? Jenn Dalen-Gordon (Guest) 00:09:33 It was treated as a lady's radio station and we had to because you look at like as we all know in the Edmonton market is crazy. I think I've lost track as to how many radio stations are in there's so many stations and getting the license for that radio station was as everybody knew. A challenge because of the proximity to Edmonton and for a lot of people it is funny when you fly into the city of Edmonton you don't fly into Edmonton. You fly into the Duke County and that's where the airport is. Right? And so it's 30 minutes as Everton continues to sprawl and grow. I think it's getting closer at this point and so it was interesting because you have this little community just outside this big city and we really had to lean into the Le Duke angle. That was the thing is we were here, there and everywhere I was every single weekend at an event doing remotes being the boots on the ground, the faces of the radio station because if we didn't do that then what was the appeal because you have up the road major market talent, major market radio stations, big contests. There was no other way to do it. So it was a lot of almost like gorilla style marketing around the city. We had all these lawn signs that we got printed and then we would go to an advantage of the litter, like we're going to put 50 down the road leading into this little event because we want people to know who we are and that we're here, right? So in that sense it was kind of fun because again, a young kid at the time, I wasn't married, I didn't spend my weekends doing work, it didn't bother me. So I would go to all these things. But we really did have to work that angle, right, because you're right outside a big city and we ended up with access to some big city talent that definitely did help draw some attraction and attention to the radio station. There have been some changes in the Emmett market at the time. I mean, that was how we got some high caliber talent right out of the gate. So it really made a voice when it launched. Obviously there's changes and stuff that all happened in this business as we know, and people moved on and whatnot. But at the same time we came out of the gate pretty hard, which was great. And then all this is going on and meanwhile they'd applied for a radio station in Stony Plain area, right? So now we are the south of the city and now they're looking at a radio station basically to the other side and we ended up getting that in my time there. So that was one of the last things I did with them was launched. That in fact this kind of funny story that I don't know if a ton of people know, but the day we launched 88.1, I got the call to come to Red Deer. So put the station on the air and what kind of happened is actually this Richard Stroban who called me and he said, what are you doing? And I was in a hotel room and I said. I'm in a hotel. I'm about to lie in bed and eat a Subway sandwich and then I'm going to take like an 18 hours nap because as we all know. When you launch a radio station. It's really hectic and busy and especially those last 48 hours before you hit the switch and you don't realize how stressed you are because you're just hoping that this thing goes on the air and when it goes on. It doesn't sound like a disaster. And so I was coming down from the high of that and that's when I got the call essentially that I was going to be called about a position in Red Deer. So the whole thing was a bit of a whirlwind. But again, one advantage we had when we launched 88.1. And again, we didn't have this with Wadeu because now we had a model. So we could just transfer music library and we could just kind of copy a music master database and traffic clocks, and we had a model for how we wanted to attack the actual little community side of it, where we would be lots of places and some of that gorilla style stuff. But it was still a whirlwind, that's for sure. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:13:16 So the other thing I wanted to unpack was your time at Golden West. We don't often have people from that company on this show, or at least who have worked there, shout out to Doug Anderson, by the way, who speaks very highly of you. Jenn Dalen-Gordon (Guest) 00:13:30 Doug is great. Yes. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:13:31 The company is based out of Steinbeck, which is not too far from me, but it's unique. And so what were your takeaways? Jenn Dalen-Gordon (Guest) 00:13:38 I think there was a couple of things that helped when I got into the Ledouf market, because for those who know Golden West, their approach is very local. It's almost like the hyperlocal focus. They're in markets. Actually, it's kind of funny because they're in a lot some of their markets surround big cities. Like if you look at the city of Calgary, they've got stations in erdry, Cochrane, Okatokes, and High River, which are all little municipalities anywhere from 20, 30, 40, some minutes outside of Calgary. So same thing. And they can get their signal a little bit into parts of Calgary, but they don't focus on Calgary. Right. Their focus is those markets. So I had that experience as well because same sort of approach. We're going to go to whatever small town rodeo it might be or whatever parade, and we're going to be there and we're going to have a big presence at that because that's what we actually care about. Obviously, as we know in radio, what can happen is smaller than market, obviously revenue and the sales side might drive a bit more. So you might do some more sales focus promotions that you wouldn't maybe do in a major market, because that doesn't make sense for that, right? So that also taught me a lot about small market radio, which was super helpful when I got to the Duke and then actually when I moved on with Newcap at the time. Now Stingray because I had a ton of that small market type experience. Some of the fun parts with the Golden West era was the chance to kind of do a lot of different things because obviously we know the model of radio has changed and staffing and all this kind of stuff, but those smaller stations don't right from the beginning and they don't really have big staffs at that point. And so that meant somebody who did the front desk also did traffic, or that somebody who was in news might also be a reporter or might do something else at the radio station. And so that was the experience I got with Golden West is they brought me on as a cruiser kit. That was my first job, summer in between St years, I wanted to work in radio and I could have gone into Calgary and done like a straight team job, which would have been great. But at the time, Golden West, which was a 40 minutes drive from my house, was looking for a cruiser. So that meant I got to do cuttings, which at the time I kind of wanted to be on air. So that was a huge appeal to me. So I would drive out to High River was a country station, Sun Country 97 and Am 1140. And I would spend my weekends at all of these little events and rodeos and parades and stuff, getting to do cut ins and remotes. My first ever remote was at the Strathmore stampede in the middle of a tornado watch. So that was super interesting. That was back when you had to do the call in. So I was on a phone calling into the radio station, trying not to panic because there is like this giant storm cloud right in front of me, but lots of fun experiences like that. And then the summer ended and Golden West was really good to me and that they let me stay on board. So they asked me, do you want to still do some part time hours? And I was like, yeah. So then my second year at Sea got kind of crazy because what would happen was if they needed coverage on the morning show or the drive show, I would talk to my state instructors and say, hey, can I do this? Can we set up my school schedule so I can come into school, do whatever I need to do at school, and then leave, go do like a three to four hour radio shift and then do my homework or whatnot? And they made it happen. So that was really cool. And at the time when I grew up, I swam competitively. So then when I got to post secondary coaching, competitive swimming was how I paid for some of my tuition. So I was going to say working at Golden West part time coaching, competitive swimming. And then I was doing an online UFC course. So it was a little bit hectic and chaotic and I like to live my world in chaos, so it made perfect sense. But again, everybody was willing to work with me and make the scheduling work so that I could get that work experience, which was so valuable, and also still graduate school and maybe get a couple of hours of sleep. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:17:33 And you got to go to Red Deer. You got the call to go to Red Deer and what was that job and what did you do? Jenn Dalen-Gordon (Guest) 00:17:40 So that was, at the time, program director of Kg Country 95, Five and Southern Alberta. So at the time, southern Alberta consisted of Q 91 in Drumheller, q 157 in Brooks, q 93 in Stetler and Blairmore. So that would have been Mountain Radio at the time. And then Red Deer, Kg. So for me, the big draw to that position was Kg knowing the country format. Obviously I grew up on 105, but by this point I was well enough into the country format to know that when I went to the CCMA awards, kg country was a juggernaut of a radio station. Everybody knew what Ckgy was that year. It was Greg Shannon Taylor one personality of the year, I think Tim Day one, like music director of the year and the station, one station of the year. And you knew it was just this heritage station. It was about 40 years old at that point, and I couldn't believe that they were going to let me be the program director. And when they hired me, I was like a 24 year old kid and they were going to let me come and program this juggernaut of a radio station. I still think it is an amazing radio station. It is a special one. And so it was super exciting and kind of my role was obviously PD locally in Red Deer, but then I would go around and visit the markets in Southern Alberta and work with talent and boots on the ground with some strategy and then music assistance and whatnot too, and whatever else we needed to do. So that kept me busy and I got to tour around Southern Alberta and I can look back now and go, wow, that was a little bit insanity. I probably had no idea what I was doing in many ways, but I was willing to learn. And I had some really great mentorship and leadership coming from Jeff Murray, because at the time Jeff Murray was in Red Dear as well. He was overseeing Zed 98, nine and a good chunk of some areas of rural Alberta, but his specialty is classic rock. They need somebody who could be more focused on country, and that was where my role fitted. Right when I got to Le Duke, I realized that I didn't just love country music, I was like weirdly obsessed with it. And so I love the format so much. So even at my time on the Duke, I started to get really involved with the country music scene. So I got myself on the board for at the time was the ACMA, it's now called the CMA B, but it's the music association for Country Music in Alberta. So I was on that board and I was doing a lot of the liaisons with the labels and the artists and all that kind of stuff, and they would come through and just getting to know people in that whole community. And so they needed that in Red Dear because again, Ckgy was such a juggernaut of a radio station in the country community and so that's where I kind of kept growing that side, too, right? So I still can't wait to let me do that. But here we are. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:20:28 In just a second more with Jin, including tips and tricks on how to build an entire radio network. How does a music meeting happen across four time zones? And why is Alberta the home of country in Canada? The song you're hearing right now is by Megan Patrick. It's called Cool About It, and it's up for a 2022 CCMA award. And I know what you're thinking. Why are you playing this map? Well, it's because I recorded a podcast episode with Megan about how she became a member of the Buffalo Bills mafia, and I'd really appreciate it if you gave it a listen. It's up on the episode page@soundoffpodcast.com, where you can also get a transcript of this episode. Sarah Burke (Voiceover) 00:21:09 Transcription for the Sound Off podcast is powered by Potent. Your podcast is an SEO goldmine. We help you to dig out start your free trial now at potent. IO the Sound Off podcast with Matt Cundill. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:21:23 So you're 24 years old. I have wine that's older than that. And your program director in Red Deer. I mean, there's got to be some people who look side eyed at you. Jenn Dalen-Gordon (Guest) 00:21:33 Yeah, I 100% experienced that. And why wouldn't they why wouldn't you look at that and go, this is interesting? Does this kid, because I was a literal kid, know what they're doing? And in some ways, no, I probably didn't know what I was doing, but I could at least figure it out. That's I guess one skill set that I have is I'm a really strong problem solver and learner. I like to learn. And so if I didn't know how to do something or how to handle a situation, I would go and figure it out. And again, that's where people like Jeff and Steve and stuff worked with me on some mentorship stuff. Right on. Like, how do you work with talent? How do you make your station better from the music side as well? Stuff I didn't know in Music master. And how do you write proper imaging? I mean, I was doing all that in the Duke for sure, but my skill set wasn't and, I mean, I'm still growing and learning, improving on that, but my skill set definitely wasn't quite at that a level at that point. So working with them and just learning and all of that, there were some challenging times where I really had to kind of prove myself by action to show people that I knew what the hell I was doing. And even if I didn't know what I was doing, I had to act like I knew what I was doing because I would lose their confidence. And so that was a lot of work. And there were definitely some moments where I would close my door and be like, I don't think I handled that situation right and then reflect on it and figure out how I was going to do it next time and come back and make sure that my team still had faith in what I was doing. But I think I can speak from experience now with the crew that I have worked with, like people like Randy Chase or Vinny Taylor, those type of announcers where they would say, yeah, she knows what she's doing. And there is a lot of ups and downs with that, for sure. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:23:17 How much country is two country in Alberta? Or is there such a thing? Jenn Dalen-Gordon (Guest) 00:23:21 I mean, I'm really biased, Matt, so I don't think there is too much country. But like, Alberta is yeah, I mean, if you look at the country, like Alberta is the country province, there's no doubt about that. There's a reason why the CC maids have kept going back there. There's a reason why the Calories sandpit is what it is. There's a reason why when Garth Brooks comes out of retirement, plays one show anywhere, he picks the centennial celebration of the Calgary Stampede like it is a giant country market. Rodeos, the light, it's lifestyle, right? Like up and down Alberta, whether it's a good thing or bad thing, sometimes on the redneck side is the country province of Canada. And I don't know if there is such a thing as two country. I mean, the interesting thing about country is we've gone through these areas and it happened in the 90s, but we've gone through these areas of polarization, right, because country music is it country music, right? That's the big question that so many people challenge on. When you look at acts like Florida Deli and Sam Hunt, the snap tracks, the pop influences, they're getting played on Chron hot AC radio. So is country really country? I mean, I think it is. At the end of the day, Nashville is the epicenter of country music. And if what they're doing is what they're doing, it's country, right? I think people sometimes get so focused on what country is, though, and how it has to have that traditional sound and whatnot countries kind of become like AC. The AC format doesn't really kind of exist anymore and it's like country is the one that people will flock to. It's just easy listening. And it's not like twangy. That's the biggest complaint you always get, right? I don't like country music. It's twangy. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:25:00 Yes, a rock can be anybody with a guitar and country can be anybody with a hat at times. Jenn Dalen-Gordon (Guest) 00:25:07 Yeah, at this point, because I do. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:25:09 Recall the discussion in the country circles around Taylor Swift. And so what are the conversations today? Where will you get a call to say, maybe you shouldn't be playing that? Jenn Dalen-Gordon (Guest) 00:25:19 So, I mean, it's drastically changed kind of even from the Taylor Swift era. I think. Obviously, right now one of the hot things that a lot of people are watching is the Netflix documentary of Shaniah Twain. So. We all know that Shania is arguably one of, if not the biggest influence for how country music sound changed in the early two thousands, which then Taylor Swift picked up and it was that pop sound. What you'll notice the shift of Taylor was she had that last her last song, I think it was Red, like the last song that kind of had success. Like she had some other songs that she tried to release to country radio and they didn't do as great because they really had at that time lean, so pop. But Red was an interesting one because if you go back and listen, it's got that red red. It has some really interesting production cadences to it that at that time it's funny because I look forward now and I'm like, well, that's not going to sound absolutely fine. It wouldn't really stick out like a sore thumb, but it kind of did at that time and that's where she was considered to have lead to pop for country radio. Right. But in terms of today, where I've questioned it, you know, like we've had a few Sam Hunt songs come through in a music meeting where we've had discussions and gone, oh, man, are we going to play this? Are we going to have an issue with this? And Florida, georgia. July was the same. I mean, that meant to be song that they did was very different. And you look at some of the duets that have come out recently, we've got country artists paired with rap artists paired with pop artists where the song is getting crossover and stuff. I mean, you've got artists like Mary Morris who goes and releases the biggest song on country radio for the year, The Bones, but also has just come off a song called The Middle, which obviously we didn't play that, but she's getting airplay all over Top 40 Hot AC radio. So at this point, if I'm honest, I don't really know where the line is because I get sent a song and go, okay, well, this I mean, really poppy. Like tons of Snap tracks and stuff in it and we'll put it on the air and I'm waiting and I'm waiting for complaints and phone calls and they don't come. So I don't know if the country audience at this point is just kind of accepted that that's a part of the music and that could very well be it. Again, I'm a country fan and some of these things don't bother me. I'm going to listen to these songs and I'm going to love them. But then I get a song sent to me via Chris Stapleton and it's super traditional and I'm in love with it. One of my favorite songs last year was Jordan Davis and Luke Bryan did a duet called by Dirt. And if you look at that lyrically, it's got some very traditional themes and stuff to it, right down to putting a church collection donation in, like, that's very traditional country type music. Or Cody Johnson, he had one of the biggest songs of the year, and that song comes on and it's so traditional country and I love it and the fans love it, but at the same time, they're okay with a really poppy Thomas Red song. So I think it's just the listener has changed and it's more so that they just like music that I think it's a mood thing. I think they're listening to the songs and some of these songs will make them cry and then some of the songs will make them think of their kids growing up, and then some of these songs will make them want to crank it up really loud and dance. And I don't think they're not as worried as they were 20 years ago about is this actually country music? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:28:42 Tell me about getting the Real country network together, because I look at it now and all the stations that you oversee, how the real country network was. Jenn Dalen-Gordon (Guest) 00:28:53 That was the first network that we built as a company. So it came across Jeff Marie and mine's desk, and it was this idea to match these stations, make them a little bit more, I guess, in line, so the scheduling music would be less of a task and from a sonic perspective, they would sound more in line. And then from like an imaging perspective, you could produce one batch imaging tag with different frequencies, right. So it made sense, like, from a business perspective and from even just an execution perspective, yeah, this makes a lot of sense, but we'd never done a network before. I had worked with two stations that we kind of had linked with Stony Plain and Le Duke. We had shared voice tracks on those radio stations so had a real basic understanding of what we needed to do. But that was, again, Jeff Murray and I, let's get on the phone and music master and let's figure out how to do this because we're going to match voice tracks and we're going to sync these radio stations and they're going to play the same music basically at the same time. And we're going to have these as one brand, right? And then from there, okay, we got to get logos, we got to get gear ordered. It's the little things, right? Like write down a building signage and you're like, oh, yeah, we got to change that sign. There's a little thing that somebody's printed in the door that has a mountain radio logo on it with the hours that the front door is open and we got to change, like, little things like that, right? Because as we all know, every time we flip a logo, it's like, wow. So that became interesting because there was no pushback in any sense. It was, how do we do this? We're about to kind of create something cool. And at the time, we only did it for the Real Country stations. So it was just basically the province of Alberta. It just made more sense on how to program all of rural Alberta because you're right, if you look at our company, we've got a ton of stations over in the east, few in Ontario, and then you get to the province of Alberta and it's like, whoa, we're everywhere. Like Stingray has a lot of small market stations in rural Alberta. And on the Real Country side, if you count Red Deer, there's ten of them. So we have ten real country stations. So what we do is we left Red Deer to its own devices because it made sense. It's a rated market, it's a bigger market. It's the Juggernaut. We're still going to rebrand it, which was interesting and a little terrifying. And at the time we weren't sure if this is the right choice. Do we take this Heritage brand and this Juggernaut or radio station? Do we give it a new name? And it made sense because of the things we were just talking about with the music style of country. That logo looked old. Like, it looked like an older logo. And as we know, in this competitive world, you got to stay kind of fresh and hip to be relevant. And we weren't sure the music we were playing because of how the style of country music had changed. It didn't match. Like you'd play a pop Thomas Rhett song and then you'd look at the station logo and it was like that older horse and Kg country and it just, it didn't feel like it fit. And so we decided that we would spice it up. We'd give it a new logo. And one thing that if you go and look at the logo, this is my favorite part about it on Real Country. The province of Alberta is hidden in the logo. I'm looking at it now. It's the bottom of the A. The province of Alberta is actually right in that logo. And that was kind of a fun thing that we did that again, I don't know if anybody notices it, but we noticed it and think it's super cool. And why we chose Real was the idea to still kind of fit with Alberta is a country market. It's real country. You got rodeos, you got people who their kids go out and they mutton bust on the weekend, and then you've got people swinging hay and you've got people who just drive that QE two stretch all day long. And so they're real country. Like their lifestyle is real country. And that's why we went with that for that province, right? So it took us about six months and we figured it all out. How to link the stations, how to link the music masters, the voice tracks, the music categories, all this kind of stuff, and hit go and then flash forward. And we have a lot of networks. We have the Boom Network and the Hot Network, and now New and Real Country are actually one sustained network, right? So they're all one network. At one point, they were kind of a little bit separated, but we realized there was a shared voice tracks, and we were able to acquire amazing talent like Paul Maguire and wanted him on all of our properties, so we were able to link those brands. And it's been a ride, that's for sure. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:33:22 But one of the things I know you didn't have to worry about was talent, because it was Randy and Vinny. I mean, Randy, there's a pro, and you got a veteran and Vinny, and I guess that was the easy part of the rollout. Jenn Dalen-Gordon (Guest) 00:33:35 And, I mean, I know you've talked with Randy and her and Vinny. I say this with so much love. They're the weirdest thing that's ever come together. And what I mean by that is we weren't sure how it was going to go. You have two very different people lifestyle wise, and they are like best friends. They love each other so much, and it's so awesome, but they are they're so different. We have always run stuff on the air that's like peanut butter and jelly, salt and pepper. They're so opposite. Vinny will go home from the show and sit on his deck in a bathrobe and have a smoke and yell at his neighbors. That's just who he is. And Randy is everybody's friend, right? She'll end up in a supermarket, and she's talking to, like, 18 people in the aisle about their day and probably sharing a lot of information that they don't want to know. She's an open book, but you put them together, and they just have this great dynamic, and they've made each other better. Broadcasters. Like, Vinny is a stronger broadcaster. His storytelling and his vulnerability is so much stronger because he has Randy, who he's watched just be this open book and willing to share her ups and downs. She shared so much on the air challenges. Her and her husband are going through challenges with trying to have kids, like all this stuff. And Vinny hears that, and then he's willing to open up about his story, which is also very interesting, and you get them together, and they're just like two best friends on the radio that maybe without this crazy business would have no business being friends. So they made that super easy. And that was part of the reason why it came to the decision we were going to syndicate them because the content was so strong. And that was that crazy conversation where we went, is this content only country? And it wasn't. It was lifestyle driven. It was stories. It was the things that we want to share. And so we made the decision to put them on Boom, too, which was probably, from an outsider's perspective, a little bit nuts. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:35:36 I think back to when I worked with randy in Montreal back in the early two thousands. And she said she was moving to Edmonton and I said, okay, here's some good places to live and here are five friends. And I left the names and of course this was before Facebook and all that stuff. And then the next thing my friend Phil calls me up and goes, hey, I'm with your friend Randy, we're having a great time, we're drinking. I was joking, but they all got together and they're still friends to this day. Jenn Dalen-Gordon (Guest) 00:36:00 That sounds like Randy. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:36:02 Tell me about the music meetings, because an ad on Real Country, that's a big deal. That's a lot of stations, that's a lot of spin, that's a lot of reporting. Jenn Dalen-Gordon (Guest) 00:36:11 If you get an ad with our stations, like you're on all 20 property or yeah, 20 properties now between Real Country and New Country. So it is it's big. Five of those are reporting. Well, six if you count BDS, and then the rest are still secondary spins where if you're an artist, you're music is getting into markets where you can go play shows and all this kind of stuff. So it is a big deal. Which is why, like, we should we take them pretty seriously because we know that the impact that that can have. And so we do actually a lot of different chains and groups. Now, committee meetings, if you want to call them, that rates our whole group some key players from each kind of area of the country and stations. So obviously I'm on the calls. We have somebody like Jackie Ray Greening, who is a bit of a legend in the country music world up in Emmett, and she sits on the calls shiloh out in Monton, who again is super well connected. No one in the country world on the music side too. And then some up and comers that they want to get there. They love country music and they want to grow in their radio career and they want to learn more about the music side. And so they come in as well. That weekly meeting, depending on holidays, six schedules, you're looking anywhere from six to 810 people that are involved in that, which can feel like a lot of cooks in the kitchen, but at the same time you get different perspectives, right? Like for example, when we are looking at a song, sometimes we'll throw it out to the women in the group. We target women and go, okay, if we're looking at this song from a female perspective, like, what's the message? Is this a song that women are going to relate to and love? And so there's that perspective that we look at. I mean, obviously, like everybody else too, you're looking at data and you're looking at relevancy of the artist and you're looking at the song and production and all of those factors. But I love that we've got such a diverse group because some of our group is really numbers focused, which you need. And then some of our group is really like heart and soul focused, if that makes sense. Like they just love the format and they can hear the song in the playlist because if we just programmed only based off of numbers, I don't think your radio station, I don't know if it would sound that great. I think you'd get a lot of the same songs kind of running back to back. I think Cadence Temple. I think all of that. I don't think you would get a nice playlist and so I think there's lots of other things you have to take into consideration, which is sometimes where the heart comes in and the texture and going, you know what, this song, let's take a chance on this one. Because in our playlist, which right now is really mid tempo male, let's say maybe a little bit Love Wimpy type songs, this song is going to come in like a rocket and it's going to break up that cadence so the listener doesn't just think they're listening to the same song over and over and over again. It's going to punch you in the face. This is going to sound really good in the mix. Or this ballad from this female artist is insane. Like, it's so well structured and written and yeah, it's a ballad, but holy crap, right? It's going to hit the fields all over the place. And so that's kind of the balance of our meetings is we've got this group that's focused on that side and the number side and you put them together and you get a really great combination and different perspectives, different age groups are in that meeting, different skill set levels, different knowledge of the industry is in that meeting. And I think when you put all those people together, it creates a really nice dynamic. Obviously there are some days where we had a song and I'm like, it's not my choice and whatnot, but I'm going to respect in my role, I'm going to respect the committee because that's the decision that we've made. And I've been wrong before. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:39:44 Oh, listen, I'm the guy who didn't add Kid Rock Bob with the bot to the bear in Edmonton. So been there, done that, in amongst a few others as well. Jenn Dalen-Gordon (Guest) 00:39:54 Yeah, totally. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:39:55 Does everybody come to the meeting with the songs listened or do you listen together? Jenn Dalen-Gordon (Guest) 00:39:59 Yeah, we don't listen together. A big part of that is actually just the one. We're all remote. It's not like we're in a room and it's easy. And as we know, sharing audio on this space is not always the easiest and sometimes it cuts out or it comes through and if you don't share your screen right, then we're not actually getting the audio. So we've kind of made it. We have a list that gets sent out and updated as new music comes through and whatnot, and then it's everybody's job to when you come into that meeting, you've got the notes and that's Shylo's role a little bit. So Shiloh will help curate that. He'll come to the meeting with some suggestions on moves as well, and then we discuss through them. And sometimes we go with what he suggests and sometimes we throw it in the kitchen, we throw it out the window and we start from scratch. But that's kind of our structure is listen to the songs, we'll chat. If somebody brings up a song that not everybody's familiar, because that happens, then we got to listen to it or come back to it, unless it's a super, super star song, which is that might happen if somebody releases the song on a Monday morning before a meeting, which is rare, but for the most part, you come in prepared. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:41:06 So I had a phone call from Warren Kopnick at Sony and he asked me for a technical idea because the entire radio industry comes to me, and record industry, too, whenever they have a technical question, they're calling me. And he brought up an interesting question, which is, how can I play music for music directors and program directors and give them a taste of what the song is going to be like? At the time, it was a chain smokers song, but it is an issue. You just can't play this stuff over zoom or we're doing now with the squad cast because it's just not the same thing. It's got to come barreling out of speakers. Jenn Dalen-Gordon (Guest) 00:41:39 Well, we tease Warren all the time because he must have learned a few tricks from you, although he's not as polished as you, because I've had many a call with Warren over the last two years in Pandemic, where he freezes or he doesn't have a sound turned on right. But damn, he looks great. He's got the headphones, he's got the mic. I'm like, Warren, you can start your own show here. Do you want a job? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:42:01 Oh, he got it worked up. He's got a whole studio thing going now, so he's up to his game when it comes to doing his calls and whatnot. And speaking of reps and record reps, how do you balance the time to take their calls? Because you're obviously one of the top ones when it comes to making a phone call for country, there's a few. Jenn Dalen-Gordon (Guest) 00:42:21 Of them that we have scheduled. I have scheduled weekly calls or bi weekly calls. So we've actually built it into calendars. And that is for the most part, some of your major players on the country scene will spend some time chatting with them every single week, which is great. Use that time to catch up on some stuff, chat about how the meeting went this week and if the song didn't get in, why, and then what's coming. So they'll give me a little update. And then, of course, if we have any ideas, we want to do in the country format for our company in terms of activation contesting, like whatever it is, or specialty programming, like I can chat through on that side with them. Otherwise for the remainder. I've been fortunate to build some pretty good relationships with these folks over the years, having worked so much in the format and so if they need to call or to chat about something, it's a quick text or an email and we'll schedule a time. Or sometimes I just get a call of the blue and if I've got time, I'll make the time. I'll answer the call. But for the most part a lot of the stuff is scheduled calls. It's been interesting in the Pandemic though. Because there's been a few people who have forgotten that I don't live in Alberta anymore. I live in British Columbia. So sometimes I'll get a call and I'm up early anyways. But I'll get a call at like seven in the morning or I'll get a call. Somebody will call my old Red Deer number and they can't get a hold of me. I'm like, yeah, because I'm not there, I'm not sitting at the desk anymore, so maybe try this number instead. But for the most part and that's just because nobody's done radio tours, nobody's been around and we haven't seen each other for two years, so everybody forgets what that's like, right? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:44:00 I missed that tweet. I didn't know that you moved to BC. Jenn Dalen-Gordon (Guest) 00:44:03 I do. Yeah. I live in BC. So basically what kind of happened was during the Pandemic we made some shifts. So I was living in Red Deer and in 2019 I took over the role to oversee Red Deer, rural Alberta and BC from afar. So I was a regional program director for basically I guess those stations in the west. And then kind of in the midst of the Pandemic, my role shifted and they wanted a little bit more boots on the ground in the BC interior. They needed some strong leadership skills here to help grow these stations. And so I moved out to Camloops, which is where I'm living now, to oversee the three operations in Kamloops and then two in Colonials. So operations manager for BC interior and then kind of shifted my role with country. So took on a more official capacity as the brand and content leader for the country format. So basically overseeing everything on our country properties, assisting in marketing promotions, the national music stuff, national shows like Paul and other syndication like Casey's and some of our regional voice trackers like Susie Burge and Alberta and stuff like that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:45:14 Who is your favorite record rep and why? Is it Laura Fraser? Jenn Dalen-Gordon (Guest) 00:45:18 Oh, my God. I love Laura Fraser. That's a really good one. Can I say? I love everybody but Warren Kopnick. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:45:24 Yes, absolutely you can. Jenn Dalen-Gordon (Guest) 00:45:26 I'll say I love everybody but Warren Kopnick. I actually have more recent blackmail for Warren Kopnick and I've saved on my phone because I went to an event. He brought some folks in to see a new country artist named Nate Smith. And the timing the Glory Boys were there, and they have a song called Float. And Warren ended up on the stage in his bathing suit and snorkel gear dancing around. So I made sure to capture that so that I've got some blackmail. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:45:50 My only experience with country music in the last ten years has been I met Aaron Goodwin in the hallways of the office that you're in right now. And Megan Patrick was on a podcast that I did, and we didn't really talk about much country music. We talked about the Buffalo Bills. Jenn Dalen-Gordon (Guest) 00:46:09 That sounds about right. Okay, I will say that the country music format, if you have not worked the country music format, you don't get it. And then you work the country music format and you go, oh my God, I just love this format, and I love the people in the format, and how do I keep working in this format? Which is why you get legends in this format who worked the format for so many Bajillion years and know the format inside and out. And it's because it's literally I call it the Country Music Family. The country music community. Word it however you want. Yes. Do we have our own 800 Bajillion Award shows? Yes. Do we have lots of different associations? Yes. But that's what creates all this community. It's unreal. The friendships and relationships that I've been able to build over the years are just because of this little world that is country music. And then you throw in the fact that in Canada, we have our own version of it, the Canadian Country Music Group, and it's like a giant family. Like I'll be in Calgary in September for the CCMA awards and country music weekend. I can't wait to hug every single person there. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:47:12 You answered my next question. What is something that is exclusive to the country radio format that is not country music? Jenn Dalen-Gordon (Guest) 00:47:19 Yeah, it's the community. You don't know it until you're in it. And it's kind of hard to explain, but, like, associations where I go and I spend time working with new artists and how do you get radio airplay and educating them on the radio side of stuff, but also watching them perform and grow, and you get to witness that, like, you know, Brett Kissel is for so many people. It's funny. Like, I was just listening to an interview that Paul Maguire did with Dean Brody, and he talked about Brett in the interview where he said he was at. He thinks it was the Juno's or maybe it was the CCMAs, and he was on the red carpet. And at the time, Paul was working at CMT, and Brett walked by him and said, hi, Mr. McGuire. I'm Brett Kissel. I'm 15 years old, and one day you're going to interview me on this red carpet and I mean, Paul has interviewed him about 100 times on Red Carpets. Right. So it's his own little culture and world that is kind of special. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:48:13 Quick question, how many stations do you program? Jenn Dalen-Gordon (Guest) 00:48:15 Well, I've got the five MBC interior and then oversee the 20 that we've got for all of our country stations. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:48:23 And how did you ever manage to do this on a Friday afternoon when there's about 800 logs due? Jenn Dalen-Gordon (Guest) 00:48:29 Well, that's part of the advantage of how we built our systems, which is great, and we got really good people. But yeah, as we all know, Fridays are maybe my least favorite day of the week, which is weird. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:48:39 Jen, thanks so much for being on the podcast. I appreciate it. Jenn Dalen-Gordon (Guest) 00:48:42 Well, thanks for asking me. Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:48:42 The the Sound Off Podcast written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski. Social Media by Courtney Krebsbach Another great creation from the Soundoff Media Company. There's always more@soundoffpodcast.com.

I know what you are thinking; with a title like that, the episode involves Rush. It does not. But given all the discussion of Ari's upbringing in the Suburbs of Toronto, and his affinity for playing the bass, this lyric from the song Subdivisions came to my head. Ari Daniel now lives in Vancouver after working at great radio stations like Virgin Radio 94.5, Sun FM 99.9 in Kelowna, and EZ Rock 97.3 in Toronto. There are lots of legendary names that get mentioned in this episode; all contributors and inspirations to Ari's radio career which started at the age of 15 before he got to Ryerson. (Now Toronto Metropolitan University) In this episode you will hear how Ari wound up inside the building of 2 St. Clair as a teenager, how he loved moving across Canada to work in Kelowna, British Columbia, (who wouldn't) and how he arrived in Vancouver to work at the Beat 94.5 and then Virgin 94.5. Ari also hosts a podcast. You can link to it here. One hour, one anonymous caller, one story about addiction. I remember hearing about the podcast called Beautiful Anonymous a number of years ago and saying - I wish I had thought of that. Turns out Ari found a way to repurpose a great idea and help others at the same time. Ari is a goalie as well. We talked a little bit about how that is different but what all goalies really want to say is.... be kind when warming me up. Transcript: Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:00:01 The Sound Off podcast. The podcast about broadcast with Matt Cundill starts now. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:10 Ari Daniel 13 years, five radio stations, three markets, including two of Canada's biggest. And he also has a number of extra curriculars that you'll find interesting, like being a hockey goalie, playing the bass, and podcasting a passion. We are going to take a trip from his hometown of Toronto to Colonial and end in the city where he joins me from now Vancouver. Okay, so you've been in the radio business for 13 years, yet I can see some of your degrees sort of transpired. Around 2013, I have you starting your first radio job at the age of 15. I know there's a story there. What's the story? Ari Daniel (Guest) 00:00:48 Well, I always knew I wanted to get into it. I grew up as a hockey player, like a lot of kids in Canada, and if you asked anybody in my dressing room, on my hockey teams growing up, when we're like six or seven years old, if you ask those kids what they want it to be when they were younger or when they were older, rather, they'd say, I want to be a hockey player. I guess I wanted to be a hockey player. But I can tell you, back then, I knew I wanted to be in radio more, and I would be the kid saying, I want to be in radio. And just like, maybe being a hockey player would seem like a pipe dream, I felt as though maybe being a radio host would be a pipe dream in a way, because even back then, people would tell me, my parents, my friends, family members, they'd say, great, you want to be in radio. That's awesome. It's going to be tough to get into. And I think that's why I was inclined to start as young as possible. The reason why I fell in love with radio in the first place was when I was a kid, I didn't have a TV in my room, just a radio. And naturally at night, while I was trying to fall asleep, I turn on the radio. And I was in Toronto at the time, born and raised in Toronto, and it's like the late 90s, early two thousand s. And there was some good, tight radio back in that era, in Toronto especially. And I would listen to everything, man, CF and Y at the time, I believe, already was the edge at the time. Barry Taylor at night, martin Streak in the late night. I flipped to top 40. Then I flipped to sports, especially when the Jays were out west. Games are on late. And then I listened to the highlight pack at the top and bottom of the hour, over and over and over. And then I'd wake up in the morning and my dad would still be listening. He'd listen to it all day when he wake up, get ready for work while he worked. My mom, too. She was always listening to the oldest stations. And what I noticed about radio is we've talked about it, or you've talked about it a couple of times in this podcast in different shapes and forms. But radio is extremely intimate. Obviously, it happens without any visual cues. And the presenter has to be really articulate. They have to be as articulate as possible, not only by what they're saying, but how they're saying it. They can't see you. So you have to get them to feel you and get them to feel in a different way. And likewise, the listener has to pick up on those things that the creator is doing and create their own, what we call feeder of the mind. And I guess that doesn't really answer your question. Does it matter? Yeah. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:02:59 What's the moment when you get into it at the age of 15 and you wind up on the radio? Ari Daniel (Guest) 00:03:03 So I'm 15 years old. My older sister, she's put it this way, I was 15 when she was getting married, and I had known I wanted to be on radio. And there was somebody at the wedding who was the partner of a guest, and she was a traffic reporter. It was Jessica Baker at the time, and she's Jessica something or other now, but she was, like I said, growing up in Toronto. I mean, she was at what is now Bell. She was at Ashwell stations at the time. She was doing traffic for pretty much all the morning shows that were astral owned at the time. So mix 99 nine later virgin 99 CFRB 1010 easy Rock 973 easy Rock nail boom 97 three. She was doing that whole cluster in the morning. She was on all three stations. And I had known her voice, I knew who she was. And we got talking, thankfully. Actually, my oldest sister had mentioned, like, hey, my brother wants to be on the radio. So I have heard of thanks for that, and introduced myself. And before I knew it, her wedding was on a Saturday night. The next Tuesday, I'm having an interview to be an intern at 97.3 Easy Rock for the morning show, which at the time was humble. Howard Kim stockwood, Colleen Rush home, and Rick Hodge would make his way from the CFRB desk to do his sports updates once an hour. And when I say that out loud, like, four people on them, four people plus a producer and an intern on a morning show. And like I mentioned earlier, because of all the intimacy involved in radio, the more voices you get, the more intimate it is. So to me, Mornings was as much connection as you could possibly get on the radio. And here I am standing in a studio with four people that to me, at the time, as a 15 year old, were legendary because they were simply on a radio. And from there, 15 years old, 15, 1314 years later, I guess if we include the internship. And 14 years later, I had still been at bell until just recently. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:04:52 Yeah, it's really amazing that whenever anybody works with humble, howard, and fred, and you get into that ecosystem, that you essentially wind up doing this for life. There's something about being around those guys that just sort of vaults people into turning it into a career. Bingo bob is a great example of that and so many others. So, I mean, it's just wonderful that you got to go and hang around them right at the beginning, because I think it really does sort of lend itself to a nice, long career in the business. Not sure what it is. Must be something in their coffee. Ari Daniel (Guest) 00:05:24 It's funny you bring up bingo because he was one of the many, I believe he started as an intern and then became a producer and followed them for a couple of morning shows before he went and did his own thing. And I remember and there's a long line of those guys like bingo andy wilson, I believe a couple of guys who stayed at the edge, who did mornings there, they kind of set the tone for those guys. And the jobs that we were doing, or at least I was doing at the time, did set me up for a very broadbased understanding of the business, being a morning show intern. I think there's a huge difference between being a morning show intern and being a radio station intern, because you're dead center in the middle of the action on that morning show. Things slow down right after the morning show midday job comes in, and they're doing their own thing. But when you have a big show like that, you learn a lot, and you learn it really quick. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:06:11 Yeah, there's something like, you might think that you're an intern with those guys, but you're actually doing real work and real contributions and held accountable for it, which is, I think, part of the reason that people continue working in the business after you leave humble and fred. Ari Daniel (Guest) 00:06:24 It's funny, like, back then, you tell someone you're right, because you tell somebody, I'm 15 years old. I'm an intern on the morning show with humble, kim, kalin, and rick like, oh, that's cute. So you're getting their coffee. I was getting their coffee at some point, but if there was a day where I wasn't coming in, there were adjustments made because less stuff could be done, basically. And to your point, it was more than just an internship. I was working for free, but I was working, and that set me up for a long career. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:06:49 Tell me about your hockey career. When was the moment when you said, yeah, I'm going to stop playing hockey? What's the pinnacle, what's the peak of your hockey career? And I should point out, by the way, that you're a goalie. Ari Daniel (Guest) 00:07:00 Yeah, which explains a lot. I don't think I ever at any point, stop playing hockey. Believe it or not, I'm still playing. I haven't gotten any better, that's for sure. But, you know, I played rep hockey for a very long time. And that's the type of level where there's a lot of formalities involved, there's a lot of politics involved, and there's a lot of hockey involved. And I got to play a lot of hockey. And I'm incredibly grateful for that because as an adult, I was actually saying this. I was back home in Ontario a couple of weeks ago and I said to my mom, the best gift that my parents ever gave me was the ability to play hockey. Because as a 31 year old now, I'm still showing up to the rink and still meeting new people, and I still have something that keeps me from being a couch potato. But to answer your question, I mean, rep hockey was as high as I played. I love hockey. I never loved it as much as Radio itself. I knew right away, like I said, when I was six years old, I knew hockey is a hobby. Radio is hopefully going to be a career. So I always knew it was Radio. I'm lucky I had hockey around too, though. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:07:55 Do you play hockey for free now because you're a goalie at the age of 31? Because it seems like every team is looking for a goalie, even if it's just to fill in. Ari Daniel (Guest) 00:08:02 Yeah, with hockey, you don't do something. You're even mediocre app for free. So like you said, there's no goalies. So believe it or not, Matt, there's an app, a rent a goalie app, and you basically sign in. And teams players, they sign in as well. It's like the Uber of rented goalies. You order a goalie, goalie shows up, I play, they pay. It's awesome. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:08:22 I can't remember where that started. I think back in the 90s, even before we had iPhones and apps, there was a website called Goldie 911. I want to say I was in Edmonton when this happened. Ari Daniel (Guest) 00:08:33 There is plenty of the apps now. Goalie 911 was one of them. I think the first place people heard about Rentagoli was on an HBO or showcase show, which was called Rent A Goalie. And believe it or not, yeah, it does exist and there's plenty of the apps. And in fact, the app that you mentioned right now I'm pretty sure was bought out by the one that I use. If I go to Edmonton, I just sign in and say I'm in Edmonton. And then all the Edmonton guys are looking for Gold. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:08:54 You nothing like dragging your equipment around. Ari Daniel (Guest) 00:08:56 The country wet and sweaty. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:08:59 Tell me about your time at Two St. Clair. Ari Daniel (Guest) 00:09:02 When I mentioned Rick Hodge before running down the hallway to 97.3 to do news and sports updates, I remember thinking like you're running down the hall from the famous CFRB Canada's famous Rogers battery list. I remember when I went to Ryerson and they gave us a lot of background on the industry and its history in Canada. And I'm 15, so I hadn't even gone to Ryerson yet, but I knew how influential that radio station was. I know that originally it wasn't at Two St. Claire Avenue West, but again, this is 2000 and whatever, and this was a big building with lots of people, lots of important people doing important things. And it was surreal to me. Not just in the station I was in or CFRB, but I remember at the time, Mix 99, I love rock music like you, Matt. And they weren't playing rock music, they're playing Top 40, which they still are. And down the hallway, Mad Dog and Billy were doing their morning show. And Mad Dog, to me, like I said, I wasn't listening to Top 40, but I would flip to Top 40 sometimes just to hear that morning show. So to be just down the hall from a guy who essentially, in a lot of ways I idolized, was incredibly surreal. To be around him, around the others, in a place that has so much history, both in radio and with regards to all the talent that I moved through there through the years, I had to pinch myself at times. I still pinch myself. I was really lucky to have that experience. I also think the thing was having that experience at Two St. Clair was that not everybody would agree with this. But I think that that's what allowed me to maybe skip over the really small market stuff a little bit later on in my career, because I had gotten such a broad based understanding of the industry and radio itself and all the formats at Tucson Claire, I still love that place. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:10:44 So what's the moment when you go to Ryerson, you had already engulfed yourself into Toronto radio? Ari Daniel (Guest) 00:10:49 Yeah, my last year at Virgin Radio Vancouver, during evenings when I interviewed for it, they're looking at my resume. James Stewart is looking at my resume. He's like, So did you actually graduate from Ryerson because it shows your work? If you did, why did you even bother going? Good question. When I was 15 years old, I had taken some extra courses away from school, like night courses, so that way I'd have time to intern in the morning. So I'd wake up at four in the morning, go intern on the morning show. In high school, I had that first period spare so I could get to class in time for 11:00 A.m. Or whatever for second period. And I would take a course outside of school to give myself time to be an intern. And the reason why I was taking that extra course was to obviously complete my diploma so that way I could get into Ryerson. And I'm pretty sure that the school is pretty selective still. But back then, man, they were accepting 145 people, and I was always nervous about getting in fact, I didn't originally get in. I'd been working at a major market radio station as an intern. I went to Von Secondary School, it was called at the time, which actually is the home of the first ever FM radio station license to a high school in Canada. I've done all this other stuff to kind of cut my teeth, and I got to maybe we'll accept you later letter. But then eventually, a couple of months later, I got in, thanks to, I guess, a bunch of people who dropped out. And then I started I did all four years there. I graduated, and throughout that time, I was working on the radio. And just like I did in high school, I would kind of shuffle around my schedule to make sure I had mornings open. So I continue to intern on that morning show, and then later I was actually hired as a regular employee, I think, right. A couple of months into Ryerson as a board operator, a morning show board operator, late night board operator, and all that time. I'm still tired from going through those four years because I was shuffling work in school. But I had the time of my life. And again, that experience, that four years of that balance act, I think really excelled my career. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:12:47 You picked up an award for first year there in 2010. I didn't even know this existed. The 98 One CHFI Radio Broadcasting Award, which I believe is given to the first year student who has shown special proficiency in FM broadcasting during the first year of the program. So the question is, who did you beat? Ari Daniel (Guest) 00:13:07 You know what? I didn't even know that the award existed either. I have no idea. Actually, it was one of those scholarships that you don't typically you sign up for scholarships, like, if it's an academic scholarship and they're giving you a pile of money or something, you sign up for it. I think I just got a letter and opened it and was like, that's awesome. And so Ryerson is interesting because it's called the RTA School of Media. It stands for Radio and television. Arts School of Media. And although the names radio and television are in the school name, by the time I got there, it was more of an all encompassing program. We were doing everything from digital media to regular, traditional broadcast, to the business stuff, to the ethics, history, comm, theory, marketing, branding, direction, all that. We are doing everything, but in the first year of the program, everyone has to apply themselves to a beginnerintermediate level of everything I just mentioned. And then you go on through the program, and then you become advanced or expert level at one or two of the elements that I just mentioned. So that was in the first year of the program. So to answer your question, I wasn't really competing with anybody else because we were all kind of starting from square one other than myself, obviously. So when we were taking these beginner level radio courses, we were all just trying to learn the ropes. And I guess my previous experience helped me out a little bit. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:14:26 Harry, you're just being very kind. Who did you graduate with? Ari Daniel (Guest) 00:14:29 Coulter Bouchard. He's got a set of pipes on him. He's at the edge in Toronto. Coulter Bouchard, Sam East Virgin Radio, Toronto. And you know what? We're going to finish this and I'm going to get up and then name five other people in my head. But a lot of people, a lot of them went to law school, a lot of them got into marketing, branding. Some of them are doing field television work. Because of the type of education we had, there wasn't a whole heck of a lot of people who ended up in radio. They went on to do even cooler things. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:14:56 I think that's quite common, though, for people who are graduating from any form of broadcast school these days. They're coming up with all these tools that are applicable for businesses who want to create content. Ari Daniel (Guest) 00:15:07 Yeah. And that's why when I got to Ryerson, I realized that's why I wasn't the first selection, because a lot of people came in with a lot of new media skills, and a lot of them, obviously, and radio, they grew up with those new media skills. And I remember thinking, I'm worried about what comes out of the speakers, for better or for worse, I'm worried about what comes out of the speakers. As I made my way through the industry and saw some younger people coming in, they don't need to go to school to learn new media. It's in their bones, you know, it's in your phone. Yeah, exactly. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:15:38 I'm not remiss to the fact that Ryerson is no longer called Ryerson. I think it's called Toronto Metropolitan University now. Well, at some point, we all have to update our LinkedIn profiles, right? Ari Daniel (Guest) 00:15:49 I think TMU is a way cooler name. I was saying to somebody, like when they changed the name down the street from Iran, they have U of T. I don't know if you've ever been to the campus, but U of T is like a city inside of a campus. Myerson toronto Metropolitan University is a city in and of itself. So the name works. It makes it feel like this is a university city. This is a city university, rather. You walk around, you're not confined by university walls. It's a university that is sitting inside Toronto. And I don't know, that branding just really works. It makes you feel like this is Toronto's University rather than that is the University of Toronto, if that makes any sense. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:16:32 Is that what we're going to call it? That we're going to call it TMU? Because that's pretty cool. Ari Daniel (Guest) 00:16:35 I'm out here in DC and they call it SFU. Simon Fraser University. SFU sounds way cooler than Simon Fraser University. I think TMU. That sounds like it's got a vibe to it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:16:46 Yeah, definitely. Lol in just a second, we head to Kelowna. I think Colona is one of the greatest places in Canada to get competitive radio experience and be in a really hip place. We'll find out about that experience, his time in Vancouver at the Beat, and his podcast. And trust me, the podcast is unlike anything he's ever done on the radio. Sarah Burke (Voiceover) 00:17:09 Transcription for the Sound Off podcast is powered by Poddin. Your podcast is an SEO goldmine. We help you to dig out, start your free trial now at Poddin.io Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:17:09 the Sound Off podcast. With Matt Cundill. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:17:22 Okay, I know you tried to downplay it by saying that, oh, I didn't really do the small market thing. But you did at some point. You did escape Toronto, right? Ari Daniel (Guest) 00:17:31 I went to Colonial to really cut my teeth. I was so green. I've been doing working my way up through the ranks at Astro. I've been doing overnight at Virgin. It was like 02:00 am. To 06:00 am. On weekends. I was doing other stuff, too, at the time at Virgin. Traffic reporting, morning show producing, board oping. But going to Colonial within Astral or Bell, that's another one. I know to a lot of people you'd say, like, oh, it's just Colonial evenings in Cologne. I even had to pinch myself there. Cologne is a very unique market. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:18:03 I think we should just be clear here that if you're going to Cologne for smaller market radio experience, you're going first class. This is the deluxe place to go if you're going to be doing radio anywhere in Canada. Ari Daniel (Guest) 00:18:15 Okay? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:18:16 I mean, we've already heard the stories about Rosetown, Saskatchewan, and Grand Prairie enough not to knock those places, but there are different challenges. You're in Kelowna, you're in wine country and surrounded by some of the best food in the world. Ari Daniel (Guest) 00:18:29 That's the thing, man. Aside from Kelowna being Kelowna. So you know all about what makes Kelowna as a Toronto boy, nor Toronto boy, basically, our winters aren't awful, but getting to the mild winter of Kelowna, getting to that kind of I feel like people in Kelowna there, we live to work. A lot of us. Unfortunately, they're working just to live, and you really feel that they're just so chill there. And it wasn't only the people, but it was a great radio station staffed by great people. I remember getting there to the physical radio station and knowing that at the time, the city is like, 200,000 people, probably goes closer to 300,000 in the summer. I knew it's like a ten radio station market, maybe. So I knew it was competitive, but I also knew it wasn't Toronto. And I get in, and there's three floors to this building. There's a sales floor, there's a programming floor with all the radio station, with all the stations. There's full promo department, full copy department, full traffic department, music directors, APDs. And I was surprised. This is 2014, so it wasn't that long ago. But at the same time, this was a time when you wouldn't walk into a mediumsmallmarketrade station and see it staffed like that. We have the resources and we have the people and the perfect city to do it as I got to know Kelowna, and I got to know the people in Kelowna. This is 99 Nine Sun FM flagship radio station. People grew up listening to it. You still listen to it. They know all the personalities. And that's one of those situations where I'm still pinching myself because I had a great time in a great place, in a great situation. There's plenty of places the size of Kelowna as competitive as Kelowna, but from an industry standpoint, not as unique and or as significant as Kelowna. And at the time I was doing evenings, it was a network show. Kelowna, Pentaton, Vernon 14, John Dawson Creek, which was a whole other learning experience, doing a network show and having like three traffic reports playing at once. There's different time zone in parts of northern BC. And by the time I finished two, two and a half years of doing evenings, I felt like a completely different person and more so, completely different an answer. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:20:37 Let me ask you, this is going to be a tougher question, too. What did you learn in Kelowna that you would have never learned had you just stayed in Toronto the whole time? Ari Daniel (Guest) 00:20:47 I think one of the biggest things about being in a market like that, I guess, as radio hosts, whether it's attention from the audience or it's attention from our coworkers or our bosses, I think we all need it in some way to feel validated. And I got a lot of that in Kelowna because I was surrounded by such great people, in particular my program director, Mark Burley. If I had not gone and been able to work with Mark Burley and a number of other bosses that I had after that being a small fish in a big pond in Toronto, I simply don't think I would have gotten the amount of air checks, critiques, inspiration that I needed to become the jock that I was wanting to become. So I feel like I excelled light years the minute I got to Kelowna, because I had the opportunity to develop rather than just exist, if that makes any sense. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:21:38 What it does. And Mark has been on the podcast before and we had a chance to talk to him, and I think he had his finger on the pulse of the community, but he also really understood talent. So how was working with Mark different than other people that you worked with along the way? Ari Daniel (Guest) 00:21:54 To use a hockey analogy, like, if you needed to improve Wayne Gretzky's slap shot, you have two guys on your team, wayne Gretzky and Marty McSorley, who needed to improve their slap shot. You're not going to teach wayne Gretzky to improve his snapshot the same way you're going to teach Marty McSorley to improve his snapshot. They might be having to do the same things, but the way you approach them has to be different, the way you approach a superstar, way you approach guy. And his lying going to have to do it differently because we're people, and we all need to be treated differently to listen and to learn. And Mark was really good at that. He's really good at getting to know us and getting to feel us out, our emotions, our personalities. And that allowed him to be a really good coach. Like I said, when I got to Colonial, barely had any air checks, and I told some coworkers that I was having an air check with Mark, my first air check with Mark, and they're like, oh, no, I hope you're going to be okay. Here's some tissue just in case. And I really didn't know what to expect. And I walk in, he's standing at his window, and he's looking outside. He's like, all right, just in time. Come over here. Come here. Look out the window with me. It's like my second week in Cologne. We're looking up on Bernard Street and he's like, what do you see? Tell me, what do you see? I see people. I see the sidewalk. See cars. Look up. What do you see? I see clouds. I see the sky. The sky. How many skies do you see, Art? I see one sky. One sky. So why do you keep saying two skies? And it was like, why do I keep saying that there are clear skies outside? He's like, that's it. That's it. Get out of here. You're doing a great job. And then he'd call me back in two weeks and he'd bring up one thing. He'd bring up one thing every time. And then I'd leave his office with one thing to work on. So I never felt overwhelmed. I never felt upset. I never felt inadequate. And I'm pretty sure he didn't do like I said, he didn't do the same thing with every person. He knew what I needed in order to get better. And one of those things was to not have to come out of an air check thinking about twelve different, like, oh, now I have to do my entire show differently. Mark was really good about that. And actually, somebody who Mark, I guess, coached into being a program director, his former APD, Jeff Winskill, used to do pretty much the exact same thing with me. Play one clip and say, see that? That's great. You see that? Try this a little differently. Or just don't do it because you're not good at it. And those two really allowed me to do my thing while improving on the things that they needed me to. Because the worst possible thing is when you go in there and you come out feeling handcuffed, you can't do. Your show, you have to do their show, and you start wondering, Why am I here? If you want this, this is what somebody else does. And Mark and Jeff are really good with allowing me to do what I was good at and what I wanted to do and what was working well. Also practicing and gaining the tools that I needed to become a better overall announcer. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:24:44 And they gave you so many tools that you found your way to Vancouver after doing some afternoons in Colonial, now you're off to Vancouver. Ari Daniel (Guest) 00:24:50 Yeah, same type of format. I talked earlier about a really tight radio in Toronto in the late 90s, early two thousand s. And this was the type of radio it was kind of old school Top 40. It was so tight and so good, and the momentum was always moving forward. You don't find that often right now. I remember in Toronto, at Virgin in Toronto, we used to play Cold IDs over top of music, and when I say play them, we would manually play them. If you're smoking, you have to really pick a good time to hack a dark real quick, because you have to get up there just to change the song and hit the ID. And not that we were doing that in Vancouver, but the radio station sounded the same way. It was always moving forward. And because it was a major market, because there was a Ppm system and so on, I did have to do things a lot differently in Vancouver than I did in Colonial. But I enjoyed being part of a really good, tight radio station, a successful radio station, and I've been doing Top 40 my entire life. And although, like I told you, I'm more of a rock music fan, I've always appreciated Top 40 and obviously was prone to listening to it because of Mad Dog when I was younger, and I had a great time there. It was really my first on air major market gig, where I was on the air five times a week, no production duties and so on, so I could really focus on my show. And I did have to adjust the way in which I performed my craft, and it was a lot different than it was in Colonial, but I had a good time there. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:26:18 So you obviously had to be coached into doing your brakes a little bit shorter so it would fit the Ppm meter and the measurement at the time. How did you feel about that? Ari Daniel (Guest) 00:26:28 Well, like I said, I understood why we wanted to do it that way. I understood why it sounded good, and it did sound good. And it wasn't only the shorter breaks. I was always trying to do short breaks in Top 40, but some of the mechanics were different than anything I'd ever heard. As an example, if there's a cold stop on a song, you don't use that second or 2 seconds after the song ends to start talking and then fire the song. You're firing the song first. You hear that music established, then you start talking. So, I mean, to a listener, that just sounds like a playlist, just changing songs. But to us, as presenters, you're really trying to feel things out. What's my momentum going to be like in comparison to the music that's happening before? What's my momentum going to be like in comparison to the music that I'm firing next? How long do I have? Because I have to establish the music first. So to me, it sounded great. It sounded different than anything I'd ever done. I was there for a while and there were times where we weren't talking over a fading out song. So many times I turn on the mic and realize that I can't talk because there's a fade, right? So it did take some adjustments and there were some jocks around me. I was lucky because there were some jocks around me that were really good at it. Amy Spencer, who is still there doing Drive to Me, she is one of the best top 40 jobs in the country right now and she doesn't even know it because she's so good at these mechanical things that I'm talking about and she's so good at making it good that I was able to hear and learn some of the best in the country around me. Do it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:27:54 You also play the bass, and I wish my son was here because I could get him to ask all sorts of questions to you about playing the bass. But why are bass players not respected in a rock band? I mean, it's one step up from drummer. Ari Daniel (Guest) 00:28:08 It's also quite fitting them a bass player and goalie. Weird, quiet ones. I don't think anybody realizes how much the bass does until the base stops playing. So in a rock band, they're just kind of standing there, driven to the beat that both they're creating along with the drummer. I don't know, they're just mysterious and they don't come out like they stand backstage a little bit, and if they're not standing backstage, they're polar opposite and they're going nuts. But you still can't really make out exactly what they're doing unless you're really trying to pay attention to what they're doing, so they don't get a lot of spotlight. But when something goes wrong with the bass player, everyone knows that something went wrong. Just like drums. If the drum screws up, all the guitars stop. Same with bass. Just like goalie and hockey. They only notice them when they make a really good save or letting a really bad goal. Other than that, they're just chilling in the background, which I think I like. I used to play in a band, I still play bass, too, but I kind of liked not being front stage. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:29:02 It kind of reminds me of the first day of baseball season and everybody shows up and they want to play first base, second base, shortstop, catcher, pitcher. But nobody says they want to play in the outfield other than, you know. Ari Daniel (Guest) 00:29:15 What, when I was a kid, back to hockey, there was nobody who wanted to play goal. I was really young, I was playing like left wing or something like that. And nobody was crazy enough to take pucks in the head. I'm crazy stupid enough. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:29:27 Listen, parents, by the way, don't want their kids to be goalies because it's expensive. The equipment costs way more. There's the pucks in the head thing, because there's always a coach who says, let's start with some shooting drills, and the Bucks are coming in high and fast early. You get blamed for every goal. So I remember, like, if the puck would go in, I didn't have a kid who played goalie, but I saw this going on in the stands, is that if it was an early morning game and a kid gave up a goal early, all the parents would turn and look at the goalie parents and say, did you feed them breakfast? What's wrong with your kid? Ari Daniel (Guest) 00:29:58 Yeah. And I remember that I would finish the game letting like, twelve bag goals come out. I would feel bad for my parents, like, oh God, that must have been embarrassing for you. Even I see my mom now when I was home in Ontario, I was watching the Stanley Cup Final with her, and Goldie lets in just a regular goal guy, goes top shelf. Stephen Stanco, one of the best players in the world, and she feels awful for the goalie, awful still, even though he got sniped on something he should have got sniped on. So I hear you. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:30:27 So you spent three years at Virgin in Vancouver and then sadly, they let you go. Ari Daniel (Guest) 00:30:33 Yeah. I mean, I'm sure this has been said on your podcast before, but we all haven't really made it until we got laid off. And I was there since I was 15 years old at that company, and I was lucky enough to have like seven different jobs over the span of 14 years. I was lucky enough to have a whole bunch of great program directors, meet a whole bunch of great people. I've been laid off now for three months, and these people are still my friends, and I plan on getting back into the business in some shape or form, and I'm looking forward to having all those people around me. When I was driving across the country recently, and I'd stop in a town, I'd be like, oh, so and so from midday here, lives here, and this person who does overnight is here and can meet up for coffee and go for beers, whatever. So getting laid off from that job, it wasn't really getting when I had a chance to take in getting laid off, it was the end of an era. Not at Virgin Radio in Vancouver, it was the end of an era for now at Bell. And 14 years is a long time, man. 14 years, including the internship. It's a long time, a lot of growing. And if you just consider the fact that I was 15, I essentially grew up within the radio you brought up to St. Clair. When I drive by, there still now it still feels, in a way, not even inside the building outside the building, in the corner. Just feels like home. Radio still feels like home. So getting laid off, it doesn't feel like everybody calls it. Sitting on the beach when you're waiting for a new gig. It still feels like I'm in the business. I'm here talking to you. I'm talking about radio all the time. I'm still just as passionate about it as I was. So I lost the job, but I haven't lost radio. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:32:02 And it has been noted that you drove all the way across Canada and did not stop. Pour a cup of coffee with me in Winnipeg. That's okay. Noted. Ari Daniel (Guest) 00:32:10 Is that where it was? Winnipeg? Hey, I felt embarrassed to ask exactly where you are because I've forgotten. Okay, noted. Next time where I did stop. Not that it's in Winnipeg, but I was thinking about it earlier. Have you heard of flood? Rutgers? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:32:22 Yeah, it's some sort of restaurant. Ari Daniel (Guest) 00:32:25 Restaurant? I stopped in Brandon. It's somewhere in Saskatchewan. Anyway, people are like, oh, it's in Saskatchewan. A FUD rockers is in Saskatchewan. FUD rockers, they basically give you a burger and you can do whatever you want to it, anything you want. That's what fun Rutgers is. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:32:40 By the way, I should point out you are adept at Pro Tools, which is an incredible skill. So how did you keep up on Pro Tools? Ari Daniel (Guest) 00:32:48 I think when I was in high school, I was using Adobe. And when I got to Ryerson, it was Pro Tools and Pro Tools only. Pro Tools and Pro Tools. Accessories. And other than the fact that it mixes down in real time and there's no, quote unquote edit view, it's a lot like Adobe. Small adjustments that you make in terms of how you're viewing your session. But over the years and I guess the other thing that makes it different is you have to have a hardware set up in some shape or form. But to me, it was a lot like Adobe. So if there's anybody who's like, oh, we use Pro Tools at this radio station, I'm an Adobe guy or girl, don't feel afraid to switch to Pro Tools because it will be much easier adjustment than you think it will be. And once you know Pro Tools and Adobe, it's an easy adjustment to anything. And I think the thing that people forget because a lot of us say, like, oh, why do I have to use Pro Tools? And I think other than because the plugins are a lot stronger, it mixes down in real time. And that makes a huge difference. Even if you're mixing down into MP3, it's sample rate is really high and it's great quality. And on the radio we're still worried about what comes out of the speakers and we want to make it as good as possible. So we're using Pro Tools and I'm still using Pro Tools today. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:33:55 These are some excellent skills. Should you want to start a podcast of which you have started a podcast? Ari Daniel (Guest) 00:34:01 Yes, I have a podcast and you won't find it under my name. I actually use an alias and it's not like I haven't told people that I do the podcast, but merely Daniel. The podcast isn't about me. The podcast is called Addicts in the Dark and it's very raw, it's uncut, it's real. And what happens is a stranger I don't know who they are. All I know is they're about to call. I don't know their name, I don't know where they're from. And they call me and they tell me their story about addiction. There's no script, there's no direction. We don't know where it's going to go. It's kind of like what we're doing here, Matt. And the person has a maximum of an hour to tell me their story about addiction. They don't say their name, they don't say where they're from. They can be vague because sometimes the particulars of the story call for them, revealing a proximity as to where they are. And on the podcast I use an alias, Nick. Nick and I basically lead them through their conversation about addiction. I'm no doctor, obviously, so I can't give advice, but it's just like the radio, it's about connection. And in my journey, I've realized that the opposite of having an addiction problem is not being sober, because recovery means something different to everyone. But I think the commonality with people who are in addiction recovery is they need connection. And the idea of the podcast is that they get to connect with me or the listeners and myself, but they get to put up some barriers. And those barriers are the fact that they're not going to tell me exactly who they are, where they're from, so on and so forth. The postal code box, number, address, whatever the case may be, just the conversation is real and it's uncut and it's unfiltered. So you can find it. Addicts in the Dark.com. Addicts in the dark on instagram. Addicts in the dark on TikTok. Addicts in the Dark. Wherever you get your podcast, how do. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:35:39 You recruit your guests for the show? Ari Daniel (Guest) 00:35:41 Addicts in the Dark.com. There's a button at the bottom of the website or at the top of the website. There's a button somewhere on the website that basically allows you to apply and vague email that you leave, basically that you like to be on the show, your availability, your phone number. And we set up a time. And once that phone call comes in, I hit record. Then we're good. To go. I don't know anything about the person's background beforehand. So, like I said, that's what makes it real and raw and uncut. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:36:09 Very cool. What's your connection to addiction? Ari Daniel (Guest) 00:36:12 Well, I don't think it's any secret, but I definitely am not going to be the first radio person to have gone through this. But, you know, I think whether we're on radio or not, we all have our vices, and I definitely had my fair share of them long before radio. And it's something that bogged me down mentally throughout my career. It was something that was a monkey on my back for 14 years that I was in this industry. And I did have to take some time off while I was still at Virgin Vancouver to go deal with my stuff. And it was then when I realized that what's helping me right now is not the fact that I just haven't been indulging in my substance of choice. And by the way, the podcast, you can be addicted to raw meat. It's not just illicit substances. But I'd realize that for me, I needed connection more than anything. I needed a place where I could feel safe to talk about my issues. And because addiction is addiction and it involves illicit substances, it's not always the easiest to find those spaces. And I felt like this space, we're creating a space for people to talk about addiction, was what people like myself needed. And that's what I got when I was off dealing with my stuff. And I'm feeling better than ever. In fact, if I didn't take time off, who knows where I would be? And I realized that being on the air, it's tough to go to your boss and say, I need time to be a way to deal with my stuff. That's tough when you're doing any job. But when you're on the air in a major market, when you're on the air anywhere. But for me, I was on the air in a major market. I had gotten to where I wanted to be and I was saying to my boss, I need time, and they were nothing but accommodating. So kudos to Jasmine Koga and the team at Bell for really giving me the space and the time that I needed to go deal with my stuff. And it really helped. And that was a really long winded way of saying, Matt, that I struggled and I'm feeling good, though. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:38:08 I love it. And I love this podcast idea because it reminds me of a podcast that I connected with a few years ago called Beautiful Anonymous, where the person doing the interviewing doesn't know the guests and the way they go on a journey. I think it's incredible. And by the way, anybody who wants to connect with that podcast, it is in the show notes of this episode. Ari Daniel (Guest) 00:38:28 I have listened to that podcast before, and that's kind of where the idea came from. There are differences in our shows. One is that there are no breaks. It's completely raw and uncut. I mean, if the podcast gets big, then I might have no choice but to take breaks. But now it's straight through. There's no stop, and that means that there's no reflection midway through. The reflection of the podcast that comes from myself is at the end. So that way we have a chance to get the full scope of the person's story before we dissect everything they said. But, yeah, great podcast. I forget the what's his name, the comedian? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:39:02 Chris Catherine. Sarah Burke (Voiceover) 00:39:04 Hello. You the one out there who's listening in your ears. My name is Chris Cathard. I have a new show coming out. It's called Beautiful stories from anonymous people. Every week, I open the phone line to one anonymous caller, and I can't hang up first no matter what. Hey, how's it going? This is Chris Catherine. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:39:19 Hey, Chris Etherid. I'm Anonymous. Sarah Burke (Voiceover) 00:39:21 To show where I want to hear stories, you can call in anybody in the world. Call in, talk to me. Just don't tell me who you are. You can have up to an hour of my time. We recorded it. We have a real honest interaction because I don't think there's enough of those in my life, at least, and I bet other people feel that way. Everything's interactive now, but it's not real interaction. I wanted to have a show here where we interact for real, one on one human interaction, me and you. That's it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:39:45 Ari, thanks a lot for being on the podcast. I really appreciate you telling your story and taking the time today. Ari Daniel (Guest) 00:39:50 Thanks for having me on. Sorry about the raspy voice. It's a long weekend. Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:39:53 The Sound Off podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill produced by Evan Surminski social media by Courtney Krebsbach. Another their great creation from the soundoff media company. There's always more@soundoffpodcast.com.

This week's show features yet another broadcast icon who I've been a fan of for a long time. Eric Zane is one of many former radio hosts who've made the transition into podcasting, and he's done it more successfully than most. Back when I met Eric in 2019, I knew him from the Free Beer & Hot Wings radio show out of Grand Rapids, Michigan- a show he'd just begun to pivot away from to debut his own podcast. But this was 2019, and it wasn't so easy back then to make the switch. Eric was one of the first to pick up on the new wave of monetization for podcasting, a wave we're all still riding to this day, and The Eric Zane Show remains a gold standard podcast 3 years later. Together, we talk about how he managed to make that switch, the stumbles he made along the way, and which avenues for support have been the most successful for him. We also dive into his storied radio career in Grand Rapids, where he still lives. Something we didn't get a chance to talk about on the show, but that I definitely think should tell you a lot about Eric's character, is the time he donated a kidney to an old friend from high school. Check out his Fox News interview about it, or read the full story here. And here's a fun fact, for those who might not know Eric or his show: he puts out two episodes per day. One for his regular free show, and one exclusive episode for his Patreon supporters. This means that he's put out over 800 episodes total in just three years. As a podcast producer myself, the amount of work that schedule would require not only gives me an anxiety attack, but also a massive amount of respect for Eric's work ethic and dedication to his show. If you want to learn more about Eric, you're in luck- he just happens to be one of the most connected podcast hosts out there. Of course there's website, where you can (and should) listen to his show, but you can also follow him on Twitter, Facebook, or YouTube, support him on Patreon for exclusive bonus content, or even join his Subreddit r/TheEricZaneShow to become a part of his community. Transcript: Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:00:01 The Sound Off podcast. The podcast about broadcast with Matt Cundill starts now. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:10 I met Eric Zane back in 2019 in the hallways of the Conclave Summer Radio Come conference in Minneapolis.I knew Eric from the show. Free beer and hot wings. I'd been a regular listener on my vacations in the early 2000s, whether I went to Maine or to Florida. But when I met him, Eric was in the process of doing that. Also familiar pivot from broadcast to podcast. But think back to 2019. There wasn't as much of a blueprint to do it, but there was work from home and some new monetization gadgets like Twitch and Patreon were coming into their own. Indeed, it was becoming more common. Eric Zane joins me from the home studio of the Eric Zane Podcast in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Eric Zane (Guest) 00:00:52 Yes, sir. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:53 Did your radio career start in Saginaw, or does it go back before that? Eric Zane (Guest) 00:00:57 Technically it goes back before that because I was in high school in Metro Detroit and we had a radio station. And when I was in 9th grade, I started to get interested in that. After spending plenty of time listening to the radio to these terrific morning shows in Detroit, these Fred Jacobs program radio stations and then off and running, that was it. I got the bug. High school college radio station there. Great. Broadcasting School Central Michigan University. Someone say, hey, you should try the commercial station, the rock station in Saginaw. I was like, no way. No way. I sent a tape they called the next day that ranks as, I mean, you could have blown me over with a feather. The excitement when I realized that there was potential that to actually earn a dollar doing this. What? And it was incredible. And I still get that excited to this day. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:48 A Fred Jacobs programmed radio station in Detroit would have been early eighty s and wrist. Eric Zane (Guest) 00:01:55 Yeah, that was it, man. JJ. And the Morning Crew, I would get off to school on my own. That was on. I could tell you the whole lineup. They were all superstar announcers and talent. And I tell you what, that's what I cut my teeth on. And then I would record the music this is ten years old. Play it, and then hold a microphone for another recorder to it. When the DJ would start to talk, ken Kelvert, Steve Costa, I pull the mic and talk myself, and that's how I would practice. That was like, fun for me. I listened back to it and I just got so much fun and mileage out of those recorders, and it was magical. And from that point on, I couldn't stop. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:02:38 Were there other radio stations you listened to? Eric Zane (Guest) 00:02:41 The Riff, was it? And then W LLC signed on, and then that was incredible, too. Now I have two great radio stations that I love. And then JJ. And the morning crew goes to Wheels. I'm like, oh, no. So then time passes, and I was all about it. And then as I went to college, then I started radio in high school, and so that was that, and then college. And then when I was 20 years old, I interned at the Riff. And even just going there and erasing carts and getting coffee, it was incredible. The fact that these people who I just these were my superheroes and I'm getting them coffee, it was incredible. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:03:24 Did you play them any of those demo tapes that you made? Eric Zane (Guest) 00:03:27 I sure didn't, but it was a great time. I've always been in wonder of radio, even to this day, after being out of it for so long. I still wish I was doing it, really? Especially now that I've been able to get enough of a following to live doing this from this room, I still love it. I don't care how maligned it is. I don't care about stories, about how it's going away. It's still a dream to me, and still magical. I still love it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:03:59 We've answered a question that's like, two pages ahead on what I wrote out, but it gives me an idea that you didn't really care if you were going to be doing radio in Detroit or in Saginaw or in Knoxville. So when was the first time you got behind the microphone and did a show over the air? Eric Zane (Guest) 00:04:17 Yeah. Goes back to high school. I was doing a show on a high school radio station weekly, playing rap music because I went to a phase where I loved rap, so I called myself Easy Rhyme, played rap songs, and then everything kind of developed. After the internship at the Riff, I did a morning show at the college station once a week, and then that went to the professional level to earning $5 an hour overnights on the weekend. Greatest. Incredible. Just couldn't believe it. Playing Metallica records. I can't believe it. Would cost me more in gas than the amount of money that I was making. But it didn't matter. I'm on the radio. Doesn't matter. And then everybody started people just wear out their welcome at radio stations, whatever. The overnight guy got fired, so I'm full time overnight, full time nights, full time afternoon. I then started to get a little wore out with radio because I was just kind of liner jockeying it. So I felt at a young age, I was getting stale. So I went back to college, got a degree completely unrelated to this, and was ready to walk away. And then I got offered a morning job at that station, and that put it into a different realm once mornings took hold, and I was like, now I can see that this is something on a selfish level that is even more satisfying to me. And then just by dumb luck, I get to a point where it was terrifically lucrative, which can't be said I was very lucky to be able to have that happen because too often I hear about radio morning people and just radio people in general who just die on the vine and the dream dies because they can't eat. And that's a shame. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:05:51 As I look over my shoulder, I've got a degree. That's the only thing behind me. I'm looking behind you. I don't see your degree. What did you get your degree in? Eric Zane (Guest) 00:05:59 I was going to be the guy who, when you need a stress test for your heart, I would put you on the stress test and hook up the machinery to it and administer the test. Stress test administrator I got a degree in exercise science. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:06:16 And what was the morning job where you said, okay, I don't have to do that. I get to do Mornings Now, a. Eric Zane (Guest) 00:06:21 Cumulus radio station still known as Z 93 in Saginaw, Michigan. And yeah, I did a show with a guy named Joe Volk who is no longer in radio. And yeah, we did a lot of it was different brand of radio. Obviously we played music, but it was cutting your teeth. And it was great because I worked for program directors who let me experiment on the overnight shift and then if I would come up with concepts and bits on my own, similar to a lot of the people that you hear about in the industry with voices and writing and things like that, and it was great fun. And I still like doing that to this day. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:07:00 It's a great opportunity for both you and me to really talk about overnight radio and its value, because it sounds like you spent an awful lot of time overnight and being creative and coming up with things, but we don't have that anymore. So what is today's generation of broadcasters missing out by not having that overnight? Eric Zane (Guest) 00:07:18 Well, that to me was always the minor leagues where you'd screw up. And I was blessed with a great program director by the name of Mike Ferriss. And Mike, he's been out of the game for about a year, and if I ever got in the weeds, he'd call me and say, yeah, too much or more of this? And he'd facilitate me. And I think now and I've talked about this with other people that I don't know where the talent is. It's harder for radio stations to find talent that is growing and improving. I almost think that they have to focus on the podcast world and find someone who's doing something fun that can translate to the radio, which is not out of the question. I know if I were running a radio company, I mean, you got to get something on the air at the end of the day, you need ears hearing it, and if it's good, they will. So you better find it fast. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:08:11 What was the biggest move you ever made where you had to go from one market to another and you were most excited. Eric Zane (Guest) 00:08:17 Well, nearly every move I made it was out of necessity so I was quite scared. So most of those were because I either got it just didn't work out or I needed a change, it wasn't making any money and so those were all big things. To move emotionally from Michigan down to East Tennessee I think was the strangest and hardest thing to do because we had a sick family member at the time. My wife's mother. So there was a lot of sleepless nights there and then didn't know anybody in that scenario and so here I am with two young children and my lovely wife and oh I didn't know what to do. But then fast forward when I went because I went from Michigan down to Tennessee to New Jersey, a couple of years in Jersey and then Dave Brewer from Pollock Media called looking to get a show on in Grand Rapids, Michigan which is not far from home. Well now that one still some trepidation but that was true excitement and that excitement was warranted because the show ended up really growing and taking hold from that point and that's how I was able to base this podcast because of the audience from that show. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:09:32 How did you hook up with free beer and hot wings? How did that all come together? Eric Zane (Guest) 00:09:36 Before I knew them, they knew of me. We were going to college at the same time, maybe a couple of years behind me but I did not know them. When I went to Tennessee they signed on at Arrival radio station and when they signed on I called them while they were on the air like one of their first days and they picked it up and I'm like trying to throw a fastball at their head at this moment and they kind of put it back on my face because they mentioned my real name and I was like who are these people. How do they know me? So we met a couple of times casually at various remotes and things like that and then the show that I was on got fired because favored to John Boy and Billy at this Tennessee radio station which are still on to that station wimz to this day. The guy who hired me in Tennessee, he was not working with Free Beer and Hot Wings. So I drove over to the radio station that day and they were interested in me coming on and joining their show and then that was it. We ended up working together at that point and had a lot of good years together. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:10:40 I would have never known about Free Beer and Hot Wings as a show if I didn't spend my summers in Portland, Maine where the show was carried. And I was listening to it one day going I've never heard of this. I feel as though I should have heard of this but I've heard of this. I've heard of this nowhere else but here I am in Portland, Maine, listening to this show. So first of all, why was I hearing it in Portland, Maine? And secondly, for those who didn't get the opportunity to hear it in Portland, Maine, or on any of the other affiliates that it was being carried on, tell me a little bit about the show, who was on it, and what you guys are doing every day. Eric Zane (Guest) 00:11:14 Greg Freebie daniels chris Hollywings. Michael Zari Zane. It's kind of hard to explain. And I remember it was a few years of doing the show that I remember when one day it really started to feel good. It took a little time when we started to get really comfortable with what we're doing. And we were in New Jersey at the time. I don't know how I can quite put into words how this show is what it was, but all I can tell you is what I was always focused on was trying to weave my personal life into what's on the radio. And I mean, like, 90% of anything that I say has to do with the things going on within my house with my kids, and I really like storytelling. So they played off that very well. In addition to we were with a great team of people at NASA Broadcasting in New Jersey at the time. I don't think that company is anymore. But they believed in us and they helped us and they facilitated us with all the things that we needed and helped us out. So it did pretty darn well. So much so that when the show was invited to come to Grand Rapids, Michigan, long story short, the New Jersey stations, because it was on two at the time, said, let us carry the show until we find a replacement show. And we said, okay. So it was an accidental syndication. They didn't want the show to leave. So that worked out. And then after a period of months of doing it that way, they said, we think we want to keep doing this. Okay, great. They then had a station in Portland, Maine, and they said, let's try doing it there, too. So they put us in that all of this was going on, all while Opie and Anthony had the Sex for Sam bit that got them fired and Howard Stern left Terrestrial Radio. So we took over for Howard in Portland. We took over for Howard in Albany, New York. We took over for Howard on Cape Cod, and they put us on all those this is where we showed up at all these stations. And it was tough at first, but those stations still all carry the show. So that's really incredible because there are no other stations post Stern, Opie and Anthony that are still the show that took over for them. That show has maintained that. So that's a pretty important thing, I think, considering those are all East Coast stations, too. You got people that don't sound like they're from there that have made it happen. I think that's fantastic. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:13:40 I couldn't figure out where the show was from. I just knew that I liked the show. And when I think back to it, I think the decision to put that show on the radio, maybe there was some cost savings, but at the same time the ratings are probably going to go up and it's solving a bigger problem at the time, which, as you mentioned, is the disappearance of opening Anthony or Howard Stern or even their local person if they went away. So you had all these stations, so every time you got a new market, how did you approach it? Eric Zane (Guest) 00:14:09 Well, as I remember, it was pretty much the same every time. We tried to make ourselves as available as possible for those radio stations because it's usually a lot of trepidation when the radio station would put that show on and when they would put the show on, you probably had some dissenters. I know that that was the case in Albany. There was mass dissension and eventually we won them over. First we won the building over, then the show started to get a little bit of traction. So we tried to do everything we could to set ourselves apart from any other syndicated show and just trying to take care of them in any way, shape or form. There are some stations that put it on just as an afterthought. I remember Green Bay, Wisconsin in particular, that they're still on to the stay. Put it on as an afterthought and then left it alone, didn't even bother with it for two years. And they got a ratings book and it was terrific and they couldn't believe it. And so we had a get to know you meeting two years after they put us on, and it was really remarkable because we had been there the whole time. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:15:12 Were you guys on in Florida too? Eric Zane (Guest) 00:15:13 Not when I was there. I think they may be now. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:15:16 I heard it on the air in Florida and I'm like, is this show based out of Florida? Eric Zane (Guest) 00:15:20 Yeah, it's done very well. It's continued to be very strong. They should be very proud of what they've been able to accomplish and continue to. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:15:28 Why did you leave it? Eric Zane (Guest) 00:15:30 Well, I was fired because my role on the show, I was the most vocal of everyone. I looked as everyday show as a big bowl of dog food, and we're all puppies trying to eat, so I swing for the fences every time. And what I did for years on that show was I'm making omelets for another bad analogy. I'm constantly making omelets. And occasionally my general manager would clean up the mess. You would have to. His name was Phil Catalyt. Terrific, Mind. And he really looked past the, oh, I got to go smooth this over because Eric said something stupid, you look past it, because he was making money hand over fist. So all right, whatever. As a good general manager should. Now, I don't want you to get the wrong idea. When I would get in trouble, it wasn't for some of the things, ridiculous things you hear from radio people. But what I would do is occasionally I would upset sponsors. Like if sponsor comes on the air and he's doing his own commercial and he's got a bad, horrible voice, I'm going to make fun of that guy at some point in time. I'll probably do an impression of him and try to be a buffoon, try to make it funny. That was always the goal. And of course, Guy would call this is a hypothetical, but it probably did happen at one point during my time there. So when Phil Catalan wasn't part of the radio station anymore, they bring a new guy in who he's not very good, or at least he won't consider, I guess, cleaning up my messes. So I kept doing what I've always done, and so every handful of months I'm called into the corner office because I did something that pissed off a sponsor, and I was given the old, all right, you did it big time this time. Now you have to sign a document if you ever do this again, if you ever piss off Joe's Taco Shop, you're out. Well, sure enough, that lasts another ten months. Then a poor old Joe's Taco Shop took one between the eyes, and then that was it. I was fired. People have asked, what do you think about shouldn't the guys have defended you or done this? And I go, I don't know. They may have. I have no idea. I wasn't privy to any of those things. But that was it. I was asked to leave, so I had to go. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:17:49 Have you spoken to those guys since? Eric Zane (Guest) 00:17:51 Okay, this is where it gets even more fun. Because for the first two months after that, I only had a 30 day non compete, which is absurd, but when we were renegotiating contracts year after year, we'd always whittled down the non compete. So it was immediately 30 days, which isn't even enough time to put a new show in place somewhere. So it took me two months to the day before I signed on on my own show. Leading up to that, there were some conversations that took place that weren't bad at all. But then once I signed on, I started talking. That did not go well at all. That was the proverbial lighting the bridge on fire. That was the beginning of it. There have been moments where we've spoken somewhat in the past, only to have it detonate explosively later on. It's remained that way for quite some time now. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:18:44 Yeah. I think of Opie and Anthony as well. They're not on talking terms at all either. So there's something about working so closely with people for many years at odd hours and going through so much, and then if and when it ends, it's. Eric Zane (Guest) 00:18:59 It yeah, frankly, it's been so long now that if we ran into each other, no, I shouldn't say that. I'd still be pissed. I was about to say it's all water under the bridge. That would be a lie. I would still be pissed. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:19:15 There's something about radio, though, that when one person gets let go, it's almost like they've got fireditis and nobody wants to talk to the person who's just been fired. And it's uncomfortable and weird. Somebody was talking about this on another podcast. In fact, it was David Martin and Kipper McGee, and the guests that they had on was saying that is that when people get let go from this business, nobody will call you because they're afraid to catch fireditis. Okay, so this is a clip that I heard on another podcast about broadcast called Brandwidth on Demand. It's hosted by David Martin and Kippur McGee, who's been on this show. They're talking to Chuck Knight, who is now the PD at Wi NK in Fort Myers, Florida. But I want you to pay attention to what he says about how some of us in radio treat each other when we're out of work. Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:20:04 But what I found in a couple of my job search, it was kind of disturbing within the industry is people that you kind of knew throughout your career ghost you. And I don't know if those people think that because you're out of a job that somehow that job itis or whatever will slither off to them and they'll be out of a job soon or what the deal? If there was some contagious to being out of a job, but it was unreal, people that you communicate with on maybe even a weekly or a monthly basis when you were employed would ghost you after that point. And even people that I have interviewed with you'll send them follow up information and you don't even get a reply. And I just plead with all of us to reply to emails. If you've got an applicant or if you've got somebody who's reaching out or if you've got a listener or whatever, it's easy to reply, hey, thanks, I'll look at this. Or thanks, good thoughts. Eric Zane (Guest) 00:21:18 That's it. Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:21:19 It is so easy to do, and you will not deflate people by not doing it, because when we don't do it, we are telling people that they are not worth our time to respond to respect. And that is depleting. And I fear it pushes people out of this industry because they don't get that communication throughout so many of their applications and they become frustrated with the industry and they get out before they should. Respect, please, from all of our perspectives, let's communicate. Don't ghost anybody. It's easy. Just reply with three words. Hey, thanks. Hope you're doing well. I got this. Thank you. It isn't promising anybody a job or anything, but it helps somebody have a good day is really what it boils down to. Sorry, that's my soapbox. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:22:19 You're so right shut. Eric Zane (Guest) 00:22:21 But those guys, I will give them this, they're not really the type to ever have anything like what has happened to me repeatedly ever happened to them. Just not quite in their makeup. These are not very conservative people. I'm extremely emotionally charged. That has been a good thing for me and a very bad thing that I have an on off switch. I don't have a dimmer. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:22:48 Do you think you're a product of the attitude era? You think back to the late ninety s and right on through the rock radio. There was a lot of in your face stuff and that's really what the format and radio is about. And then sometime around 2012 that really disappears and the pendulum swings the other way. Eric Zane (Guest) 00:23:05 I don't know. Maybe when it comes to me. I was always I remember distinctly having a feeling at the time that on the day that I said what I said. Because what I did was I made fun of the local it was an arena they were building for the local minor league basketball team and I was the PA voice for the team and the shot clock broke. Which is ridiculous. And I ended up making jokes about the arena and saying it's a dump and the guy who owns it's an idiot. So that was that. Now, to me, I always was looking to jazz up stories and for the longest time on that show in particular, I had this terrible feeling like we were going to lose what we had built. For some reason I felt like with the show was losing its punch. I know that sounds weird, but I struggled to put a fine point on it myself. But I remember almost trying too hard to get some type of, I don't know, something going a bit a laugh, working almost too hard and that never works. So I think that if I had just sat back and just smelled the roses, I probably would not have wound up in the scenario that I was in. But then again, that kind of goes against everything that I'd ever done, ever in this business. And that was just kind of let it fly. And I'm kind of happy in a way that I'm not over there because everything is different and creating something from scratch is a hell of a lot more enjoyable than just sitting back and kind of like drifting off slowly into the sunset, which I feel a lot of people are doing. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:24:42 You mentioned you had a 30 day non compete, but is what you're doing really in competition with where you came from? Because you're not broadcasting over the air? Eric Zane (Guest) 00:24:51 No, but if I'm doing my show and if they listen to it or watch it live or they well, any show is on the radio actually broadcasting live. If their ears are on something, I'm saying it is taken away from their time over there, which, I mean, I want that to happen as much as possible. That makes the world go round for me. So in a way, yes, I am in competition not only with radio, but TikTok videos, YouTube, television, the kids in the backseat. It's all about that dog bull I got to get after in just a. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:25:29 Second more with Eric, he shares his plan for how he made that jump from broadcast to podcast. He also has a very generous offer if you're thinking about doing the same. But we're not quite done talking about terrestrial radio yet, by the way. All the connections to Eric show can be found in the show notes of this episode@soundoffpodcast.com. Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:25:49 Transcription for the the Sound Off podcast. Eric Zane (Guest) 00:25:52 Powered by Potent your podcast is an SEO goldmine. We help you to dig out. Start your free trial now at potent. IO. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:26:04 It took you two months to go from being on the radio to starting this show, so clearly you had your mind made up. Eric Zane (Guest) 00:26:12 Actually, no. The two months was when I left. Freeburn hot wings. I started my own radio show two months later, in April of 16th. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:26:20 Okay. Eric Zane (Guest) 00:26:21 That played out on that station, a totally different station. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:26:24 That was a cumulative station, right? Eric Zane (Guest) 00:26:26 Correct. January 4, 2019, fired. That was a Friday, Sunday, the 6, January 1st podcast from this room. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:26:36 So your mind had been made up that you were going to be doing a podcast. Eric Zane (Guest) 00:26:39 I had been thinking that there was trouble brewing a few months before. Built the website, built where the podcast was going to show up at all the infrastructure laid out. I had the T shirts ready to go for sale, and just in case, you know, I built a patreon so that you got to do it right away, get after as quickly as possible. So I suspected there was trouble brewing. It hit. I was ready. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:27:05 So tell me about that launch. And I just launched a podcast the other day. It showed up at number one on the charts. I'm very pleased with myself, but during the launch that you did, you mentioned I needed to get the patreon in order, I needed to get the shirts in order. This isn't something you could have started softly. You went all in very quickly and let's go. Eric Zane (Guest) 00:27:24 Yes. And in fact, I had a lot of that set up in 2016 because I was thinking about doing this in 2016 after I got fired from free beer. Did not just let it stay dormant. So I had the people in place, so I wanted to help me. And then the few months leading up to January 4 when I was fired, 2019. Yeah, I was preparing myself. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:27:48 So your parachute was packed? Eric Zane (Guest) 00:27:50 Yeah. See you later. I got a great story to the day I was fired. Despite. Having that preparation. I honestly didn't see this happening. And I think that that's because when you're in the trenches, you just don't think about it. You're thinking about what to talk about and various radio stuff, oh, I'm fired. But on that particular day, I ended up getting sick. Like, I have to go home. I'm throwing up. So I said to my partner, bag of Ben and Sam, okay, I got to leave. And I called the boss, and she always responds, and she did not respond. I texted her. I said, hey, I got to go. Little did I know, I'm getting fired that afternoon, as soon as the show is over, I'm getting fired. Now I'm leaving. So that's weird. I go home. I remember walking in the door thinking, oh, I got to make sure to tell everybody right away that I'm just sick. I'm not getting fired. So I'm, like, almost playing it out as to what's about to happen. But I am not kidding you. I wasn't thinking about that at all. I go home. I get in bed. I'm having a terrible time. I'm laying there, and the phones buzzing, like, every 15 seconds. New message. What the hell is this? And it's from one of the people. Hey, heads are rolling, and yours is next. I'm like, oh, no. So I called the boss, and they did it over the phone, and then that was it. I thought, hey, don't worry about it. It's fine. No big deal. That was that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:29:15 Tell me about when we met at the Conclave in 2019. Why did you go to the Conclave? What were you hoping to see and find and do? Eric Zane (Guest) 00:29:22 Well, in addition to just being able to see the multi talented Lori Lewis, which is the reason enough to attend. So she invited me there to talk about podcasting. There's a number of terrific people that were there doing just that. So I'm like, yeah, so that was cool. And it was there that I met you. And so I'm like, Boy, this guy. This is fantastic. So then I went and listened to your podcast, and then you driving from Minnesota back to Michigan. I listened to so much of you on several interviews you did, and I was like, this is fantastic. And I can tell you, I can count on one hand how many podcasts I've ever listened to from beginning to end. I think you are the most listened to podcasts that I've ever listened to in my life. So it was awesome. And then looking back and meeting you, it was a good time. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:30:13 So how long has that drive? Eric Zane (Guest) 00:30:15 Oh, God. I don't know. I would have to say probably at least 10 hours. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:30:19 See, mine is only seven and a half, and I have to cross the border. Eric Zane (Guest) 00:30:24 Yes. But that was a good event. I love the Conclave. They really did a good job. There's a lot of wonderful people there. Yeah. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:30:31 And now that you mention it, now I remember, yes, you did talk about podcast and I was very interested with your show and I started to actually watch the show. And I know that sounds weird because we're talking about you having this podcast, but there is a streaming capability that you can experience every morning. So tell me how you stream the show. Eric Zane (Guest) 00:30:48 Okay, so at the time that I met you, I even bought my equipment and did the show from the hotel. At the time I was putting it out on Facebook. And then you link it up to Restream, which then spits it out to whatever platform you want, which everybody probably knows that. And another fantastic Canadian reached out to me, that is Don Collins. I don't know if you know don't. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:31:08 We'Ve had him on the show. Eric Zane (Guest) 00:31:09 Oh, good. In fact, after I got fired actually, no, in 2019 when I started, he reached out to me about putting my show on Twitch and he said, okay, yeah, you need two to 3 hours a day every day on Twitch instead of Facebook. And I said, Well, I can't do that. I don't have that ability to do that. Thank you, but no thank you. But I kept talking to him because when I first started podcasting, I would put it out live on Facebook. Then that audio would become the podcast, but we're talking 1520 minutes of whatever I could come up with. But as I started to do this more and more, I've done this. Now, as of today, 845, I do two podcasts a day, the free podcast and the Patreon every weekday. So we're talking on almost 1800 podcasts since I started, not to mention all sorts of interviews that I put up there. And whatever I can do, I do. So then a funny thing happened when you monologue for that amount of time just looking at a camera, it just got easier. I just started having the ability to carry on that amount of time every single day. So Facebook started getting more finicky about the content and I'd get blocked and I just can't have that. So I reached out to Don and he and his folks put me in the right spot. And now I put it out on Twitch and then it goes out on Facebook, YouTube, and Twitter. But then 15 minutes into it, I say, hey, I hope you enjoyed this, facebook, Twitter, YouTube. But now you got to go to Twitch if you want the rest of the show. Goodbye. I toggle a button and then I finish the show. So it is something I'm proud of too, to be able to sit for 2 hours, do your thing. Telling stories about your personal life every day, commenting on the news, shying away from no stories, being firm in your convictions, being anything but boring. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter as long as it's not boring. You can make them mad. You can make them sad, you can make them happy. You can make them hate you. Just don't be boring. And for God's sake, just keep that content moving, especially if you're alone. And then put the audio out to the world and do it again the next day. And then when you're done doing all that, go sell it, because this is no different than radio. The only thing that's different is how it's getting to those years. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:33:20 So how hard was it for you to do the transition from being in a group of three? I'm doing it on my own now. I'm the host. I'm the guy. Eric Zane (Guest) 00:33:29 I know those early shows were ugly because I had to get in the habit of not waiting for someone to answer me. I had to figure that out. And it took probably out of all the things I've had to learn how to do, this took the longest, especially when you're working with a group of people. So I would say it was a significant amount of time. I don't dare go back and listen to those old shows, but they were pretty icky. So I'm just fortunate that people stuck with it. Not that it's any better now, but I can hold my own and what I want to talk about. And frankly, I think that anyone who does speaks into a microphone should be able to do that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:34:09 Well, welcome to podcasting, because everybody's first few episodes are treacherous. Eric Zane (Guest) 00:34:14 I try to tell people who pick my brain about doing this, whoever it may be, it doesn't matter if it's some guy who's going to do the show for one person or for 1000. I often say I go, I know this is going to be difficult, but I want you to do some shows and don't tell anybody about it. Just do it and just kind of get used to it. But then they don't. No one ever does that. They just launch and off they go. But people who listen are getting really good at giving shows plenty of avenue to grow. People are giving shows a chance, and that's incredible. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:34:47 You mentioned Twitch. Can we just tell the audience that's a monetization stream, right? People can throw you like, some coins and stuff. Eric Zane (Guest) 00:34:55 Yeah. So Twitch originally for gamers, where young people and old people, it doesn't matter who would play video games and then talk about it, and then you'd watch their gameplay. Amazon purchased them and then they said that people like, Don Collins, please populate this with shows with any type of content. So that's basically what it is. So now when I start, people see an ad, which is Amazon puts up there. That's the trade off. I'm using their platform. They're playing their ad. Now, see, if you follow, then you just know when I'm on. But if you subscribe, then that's $5. You don't have to, but if you do, then you don't see any ads during the show, but if you don't pay the money, you'll see ads just pop in throughout the whole damn thing. Now, I don't get any of that, but if people do subscribe, it's $5. I get half and Amazon gets half. So as that all unfolds, you can also sign up for free with your Amazon Prime account. And a lot of people do that. It says it right on it. Sign up for free with Amazon Prime. So then they don't pay anything. So there's that. And then other people, what they like to do is people will buy virtual currency. It's just a tip jar, and there's an actual jar on the screen, and people pay like, $5 and they have it ready to go, and they throw a little bit of change in your jar. I'm not even about any of that. I don't talk about it. I have it there. If they figure it out, fine. I will tell them to subscribe if they want to avoid the ads. But to me, I picked up on Twitch well after I had established all these other different things. So I don't really rely on it. It's just a better platform for viewing experience is the big thing to me. Now, if you continue to grow your audience, you can make a hell of a lot of money on Twitch. But honestly, I'm almost like a plateaued show at this point. I still am constantly looking for new ways to get people to check out what I'm doing. And it's sometimes a struggle to get people to just get them to watch, and that's sometimes tough on a person's brain because you're like, Am I doing the right thing? Is what I'm doing even interesting? But it is. You just got to keep working at it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:37:11 So I'm going to be incredibly rude, and I'm going to count all the ways you make money, and then you can tell me all the ways that I didn't count. Because there's advertising on the show. You've got your studio that is sponsored, you've got your Patreon accounts. There's a little bit of Twitch money. Eric Zane (Guest) 00:37:26 What else is out there that's not rude? I like to talk about it because I like to be able to tell broadcasters who may wind up in my position that there are things that they can do. And before I explain that, if anyone ever wants to contact me, I will absolutely help you do just that. Eric@ericzaneshow.com, I would love to talk you through this because just for best habits and things like that, because you can do this. Initially, when I started podcasting, the only thing I did was sold ads directly. And I would take my analytics and where they're listening, and I just like a radio station, I'd bang on doors. Okay, there was that. And then the Patreon is direct cash in my pocket. Okay, great. The Patreon actually bought me a couple of months time. Now I'm going to go and sell it so that when the patreon levels off or drops, which it did, now that's okay, you can drop off because I'm selling directly to local advertisers. So when I figured all that shit out and worked on it and got it so that it was humming, honestly, I didn't need anything else. And then I know it sounds cocky and braggy, but it's the truth. I had worked my ass off getting these sponsors on the show, and then I ran into a platform called Red Circle. And I don't care what platform you are, putting your show out onto this, to me, was an absolute game changer because they explained to me the things that they can do to help me and how I can make money on my podcast. Now, I didn't even think I was going to make any money on my podcast. It was just a better platform. And one of the features that they have is a cross promote where I can approach any show really quickly to their platform. Hey, let's cross promote. I give them my 1 minute ad, they give me theirs, and then it shows up automatically. Great way to get more audience members. Then all of a sudden, I started hearing commercials for Banks on my show. I'm like, what happened? I reach out to them. They go, yeah, we're selling you now. I go, you are? They go, yeah. I go, oh, well, that's cool. What do I do? They go, Nothing. Every month you just hit the button, collect money. Like, what? Are you kidding me? So I was shocked by this. I had tried other platforms reaching out, saying, hey, can I get ads? And no one would ever get back to me. And I was like, what the hell? So when I finally put all my contact on Red Circle, all of a sudden all of these great things are happening on top of what I had already built. So that was like, really big. So now I've got my own, similar to a radio station. National sales staff, they're selling the show. Oh my God, that was great. So there's that. And then Twitch was the last puzzle piece and yeah, that's about it. All these different things have kept me just humming along. It's a lot of work, but it's so worth it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:40:17 Is your show a Geolocal show? Is it Grand Rapids? Is it all of Michigan? Or do you just look at it as being it's all America? Eric Zane (Guest) 00:40:25 I look at it as being America and beyond. If you can understand the English language and you like to hear something you can react to and won't be bored with, that is it. And that's what I base it on. A lot of my stories. If I do have a local story, that doesn't stop me from talking about it. I mean, if some guy has a pet alligator and he gets in a police chase and he sticks the alligator on them. Just because it happens here doesn't mean that story is not going to play around the world. It's a hilarious story. So yeah, you know, it's paying attention to all that stuff and having fun with it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:41:01 Yeah, I love the global story, especially if you're to look at the English language and especially with radio. I get a lot of downloads in Nigeria, which is always a little bit surprising. But when you realize all the English that's spoken there, it's not all that surprising after the fact. What do you see in your stats? Eric Zane (Guest) 00:41:18 Primarily the United States and probably 35% of them are Michigan. And that makes sense. The biggest footprint I had, largest audience was for that radio crowd. But that's the beauty of the podcast. You're constantly building and you've got to keep reinforcing to those audience members all those things to get the word out about you. And as long as you believe in what you're doing, you keep doing what you're doing and it sounds good. They'll keep coming back. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:41:47 There's somebody in radio listening to this right now who is thinking, you know, I should be packing a parachute. What should they be putting into that parachute case? Eric Zane (Guest) 00:41:55 Well, fortunately they have the big things, their brain and their mouth, which has gotten them quite far in that industry up to the point where they're asked to leave. All is not lost. I mean the equipment that I have is probably $700 worth of equipment and a $500 microphone. That's it. If you have a computer, if you have very basic set up, an understanding of live streaming, Adobe audition, hopefully a podcasting platform in mind, a Patreon. If so and so gets fired, you got to do the old, hey everybody, I'm going to make lemonade out of lemons. I'm starting my own show. I'm going to tell you all about it. On this day you have all that ready to go so that when you have your Patreon all built and set up and it's going to take a little investigation on your part to do that. It's going to seem like another language at first, which if anyone hears us again, I will help you do this. And I'm not looking for anything. Seriously, I'm not looking to earn money from you. I'll just help you just reach out to me and I'll take care of that. Yeah, patreon is huge and your equipment, have it ready to go. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:43:10 I don't see a day where you'll leave this room to be on the radio, but I can see a radio station coming to you and saying, could you be on our station and do this from your room? Would you entertain that? Eric Zane (Guest) 00:43:23 Well, technically the folks at Iheart in Grand Rapids, they have me voice track the oldest station from here. So that's fun. I really enjoy it because I figured out what I liked about it when I started. It kind of comes full circle. Now I'm playing the monkeys and I'm talking it up and I've got 45 seconds. You better do something even less. In most cases, that's going to be memorable. So I like doing that. That's fun for me. But I don't have a non compete on that station, even though I said, hey, put me on in Mornings. I'd love to do Mornings for you. And I don't know, but for whatever reason, it hasn't happened. But if someone came calling, I'd do that in a heartbeat on Morning Drive. And I'd still do this, too, because normally I do the show 08:00, a.m. Eastern time every day, but if I was blessed with the opportunity to come back to a radio station, oh, my gosh, I would love that. And then I would just move the time of this. It would just be fantastic. And the beauty of that is I don't have any pressure anymore. I mean, there was pressure when I left Freebie and Hot Wings and started on the new show because they were paying me a lot of money and you better go and you better beat your old show. And it was clear early on we weren't going to beat them, and so it took about two and a half years and then that was it. But if I were ever to be allowed to come back to a radio station, I think that would be an absolute blast. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:44:49 Are you looking to the future with anything and where to take your show? Eric Zane (Guest) 00:44:52 No, right now exactly where it needs to be. Like I say, I'm up at seven. I probably quit doing radio stuff at about this time every day, so it's a long amount of time, but that's fair. I mean, because if a radio person, let's say they do 4 hours and then maybe a couple of hours and then they're out by eleven or one, if I put in that much more time, I might be able to win a few people over and I'm at home. I can always just go walk the dog. It's all right, eric, I know you've. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:45:25 Been schooled by Laurie Lewis along the way with your socials because you do a great job with them. Love catching on Twitter every morning and then catching up with you on Twitch, so keep up the good work. Eric Zane (Guest) 00:45:34 Thank you. Oh, man, I'm lucky to have people in my corner who helped me. Thank you. I appreciate that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:45:41 Thanks for being on the show. Eric Zane (Guest) 00:45:42 Matt, you're the best. Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:45:43 The Sound Off podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski. Social Media by Courtney Krebsbach. Another great creation from the the Soundoff media company. There's always more at soundoffpodcast.com.

Jamie Cawdell is the Assistant Programme Controller at Radio Essex in England. He is also the curator the CHR Prep Service which is used on radio stations around the world including Virgin Radio in Canada and Z100 in New York. Over the years, we have seen many of radio's best branch out into other facets of the business. Whether it was John Mielke in the 90's starting his Milkman Unlimited business, Matt Fogarty or Drake Donovan shifting from Creative to voice imaging, or Bob & Sheri or Humble and Fred taking their show independent, there is always entrepreneurial latitude in the radio space. In this episode you will hear how Jamie got started in radio, the ins and outs of producing a breakfast radio show, and why he started the CHR Prep Service. We also get into what preparing for your show really constitutes and what radio talent is looking for before they head into the studio every day to perform OR record. If you are a regular listener to the show, please consider the one month free trial Jamie is offering. TRANSCRIPTION Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:00:01 The Sound Off podcast. The podcast about broadcast with Matt Cundill starts now. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:10 This week, we head to England to speak with Jamie Cawdell. If you've listened to of the show, you've heard me talk about producer Jamie. He puts out the CHRP service, which serves radio personalities with a healthy dose of show prep. Like all of us who listen to this show, he has a relationship and affinity for radio and that comes with a radio story. So I figured we should get his right after I tell you that the show is brought to you by The Chris Service. You can get a free trial right now by going to Prodjamie.com. And my thanks to Jamie for being an ongoing supporter of the Sound Off podcast. Jamie Cotta joins me from the studios of Radio Essex in England. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:50 Why do you get up at 330 in the morning? Jamie Cawdell (Guest) 00:00:53 Partly for the prep service, to sort it all out, check it all okay before it gets sent out. And then also my other job is producing a morning show on a station here in Essex. So, typing quite nicely, I can finish what I'm doing with the prep service about 05:00 a.m. Getting the car about 05:15 and then takes me about 35, 40 minutes. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:12 How did you ever get into radio? Jamie Cawdell (Guest) 00:01:14 It's funny, actually. I wanted to join the police and I think I was listening to your podcast with nails and he was obviously joking about how everyone sort of has the same answer for how did you get into radio? And actually, weirdly, mine is not that normal. I wanted to join the police. I did all the qualifications in school and college. I'm a qualified scuba diver, open water. I'm a qualified mountain leader, so I can take groups of schools and business retreats, those sort of groups of 30, 40 people at mountains safely. And I did all this stuff to join the police for my application. And then the application needed voluntary experience and I went and did it at hospital radio, which I don't think is a massive I don't think you guys have it in Canada, do you? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:56 No. You're going to have to tell us what hospital radio is. Jamie Cawdell (Guest) 00:01:58 Okay. So hospital radio is a fantastic thing here in the UK. And I don't know whether it's every hospital in the UK, but most hospitals here in the UK have what's called a hospital radio station. It's a voluntary radio station. It's based in the hospital, can be heard only in the hospital. Not so much nowadays. It certainly used to be just within the hospital. Some of them now have it online. I don't think any of them are on sort of FM or Dab or anything like that. And they're all run by volunteers and they've been going 50, 60 years. The Hospital Radio Association. And it's a bit like student radio, but it's just that anyone can do it. Some of them are incredibly well set up. So some of them have studios that I've seen commercial radio stations envious over. Some of them are in a cupboard and you basically go there and you do voluntary radio. You do whatever you want. You be a producer, you'd be a presenter, you can read the news. Some people do five shows a week, some people do one show, some people record them, some people do them live. But they're fantastic organizations. They're a great way for anyone that didn't initially choose radio before school and college and things like that, and didn't get the chance to go and do media or student radio university or whatever. So I went and did that for my police application. And there was a guy there that used to be a teacher and he was one of those sort of real old school teachers where he would like he was really supportive, really helpful, and we had heart to heart and he sort of said, you're really good at this and you've seen so enjoy it. And it seems like something you're definitely interested in. And I think before I'd finished my college course for joining the Police, I already knew I wasn't going to apply and I've never applied since. I've never even filled the application out, never sent off an application, never even looked it again. Maybe in like ten years I might look at it again. But, yeah, I went straight into radio from there. So I came out of hospital radio and joined a promo team, a street team, here at a station in Essex, and then have been with the same station since I was 18, so I'm now 27. So I've been with them coming up to a decade and have gone from sort of street team. The breakfast presenter had an argument with the PD, they'd got rid of him and then they'd moved the guy on drive time to breakfast and they bought in to do drive summer, a guy from a station we owned elsewhere in the UK, but it was pre recorded and it was all done on a play out system called Genesis. I don't know if anyone in Canada has Genesis, but it's not really set up for voice tracking or prerecords. Fantastic. We have software live, not great for prerecorded, so they needed someone to come in and literally play out these dry voice links that he'd recorded into audition and play them out on air. So they hired me off the street team and I've just sort of stayed here since. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:04:50 What about appearing on the radio? Do you have a role appearing on the radio at all? Jamie Cawdell (Guest) 00:04:54 Yeah, I do a little bit. So I work with the morning Show now as a producer. And the morning show has a historic show within Essex, where I'm based. So they've been on in the county for 22 years this year. So it's a duo called Martin and sue. And before it was Martin and sue, it was Martin on his own for an extra two or three years before that, even. So, collectively, they've been on Aer and Essex in some guys for 25 years and they've always had a sort of very token producer sort of character on the show. And when they moved to us, I was already producing the morning show that was there before them, and then it just sort of snowballed. I was only supposed to be with them for two or three months whilst they learned the system, because it was a different play out software. They'd been off for a year because they used to be at what was happening before it all got networked. And then after three or four weeks, we all sort of sat down, we're like, we all get on quite well, we all have a laugh, so we just asked if we can just stay like this, moving forward, and then I just stayed with them and it's been like that since. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:05:58 You're going to have to explain a little bit about the role of a morning show producer. We don't have a lot of them in North America because we're over saturated with radio stations, so some markets have like 1516 radio stations and that doesn't leave a lot of money for additional staff. So in Australia, I've seen teams of eight and nine. Jamie Cawdell (Guest) 00:06:16 Oh, yeah, they've got like whole offices, haven't they? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:06:19 Yeah. So tell me about your role and what you do to contribute to this Heritage morning show. Jamie Cawdell (Guest) 00:06:24 So my role is very much making sure I've always said the role of a morning show producer is less being a producer, it's almost like being some sort of like concierge butler type service. My sole role, summed up in a line, is make their life easier so they don't have to worry about anything other than being entertaining on the radio and that's it. So if that means sorting out a script. If there's a live reader or read that we have to do for a competition. And I've read it and I've got you know what. I don't think that's how they're going to read it. Because they're a double headed show or Martin says things this way and sue like saying things this way. I will rewrite it for them to make it easier. If that means making a coffee so they don't have to, that's my role. If that means sorting out callers, sorting out stuff, that's also my role. But then there's a sort of followup role after the show in that because they leave at 10:00, we don't pay them past 10:00, so once the show's done, they're gone. I'm in the office until 01:00 in the afternoon and then I am the link between the overall radio station and them and the show. So when account managers come to me and say, we've got a promotion, we've got a client that have listened to Martin ASU for years, they want to do this is this something that we can do? I can sit there and confidently represent both of them and say, yeah, I mean, that's something they do. I think Martin would want to do it this way. Or Sue's always had this idea. Maybe we can do this instead. And I can sort of represent them in the radio station past 10:00. Which I think often is vital because the amount of times that there's been opportunities where something could have been organized in a way where I know they're not going to enjoy it. They're not going to like it. Or they're going to disagree. Or they're going to go. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:08:05 Oh. Jamie Cawdell (Guest) 00:08:05 We did this at this stage. Maybe we should do it this way. And I've been able to avoid that just because I've been there and can be that link between the office and the sales staff and the marketing teams and the breakfast show when it's not there in the office physically. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:08:19 So I think it's fair to say that you would be able to tell me when Martin and sue nap. Jamie Cawdell (Guest) 00:08:24 Martin naps from about 1030 onwards and the moment he gets home, that's all he does. It's a running joke on the show. All Martin does all day is what we like to call slouch. So he slouches on the sofa all day long. Sue doesn't really nap. Sue is a bit like me, where she likes to try not to have a nap. If there's going to be an app, it's 510 minutes on the sofa, but that's about it. But they're very opposite, the pair of the martin naps all day every day and how he gets to sleep at night is beyond me. Sue and me don't really nap. We sort of go on the thinking that if you're tired through the day, you'll sleep better at night anyway. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:08:59 What are you looking for? For show prep? So you're getting up at 330. I don't want to say that that's when the show prep starts because you mentioned that you leave the station at 01:00 and then I think you are collecting show prep after that. Mentally, in your head, when you're compiling it at 330 in the morning, what are you grabbing from and what exactly are you looking for in terms of content? Jamie Cawdell (Guest) 00:09:20 So it varies, obviously. Early in the morning, I'm doing stuff for my own prep service, my own business, and then there's stuff that I'm getting for the show specifically. So there's not really a set kind of template in terms of the morning show and what they're going to use. And that's something that we were quite hot on when they first started. They liked the fact that I picked up on what they like talking about, what they don't like to talk about, what they're good at, what they're not good at, all, that sort of stuff, very early on. So I don't really follow a set. This is what we should talk about, this is what we shouldn't talk about it's more. If I see a story that I know if I read a story and I can hear Martin saying something, I know exactly what he's going to say. When I read this out, that's a fantastic story. Vice versa, if I can already predict what they're going to say. I know it's a good story to use, but to be honest, they're quite good at bringing their own content where they've done it for so many years. They come in and chat for ten to 15 minutes whilst they're having a coffee before the show starts. They effectively have what I would consider an hour long programming meeting in the space of 15 minutes. They don't really require a lot of content upfront, they do a lot of it themselves. They're very easy show to work with. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:10:33 Do you schedule any of the music on the show or on the station? Jamie Cawdell (Guest) 00:10:36 I do. I work with the music team closely, because at 27, for a hit music station, I'm sort of spot on with what they want to hit in terms of target audience, but with the show specifically, we're quite lucky in the sense that we can change stuff as and when we please. There's not a massive amount of strictness around what we can and cannot change. So, for example, the other day, obviously, Kate Bush is back in the charts because of Stranger Things and Everything, which is a fantastic show if you haven't watched it. We just thought we were talking about it and we just thought, you know what, we'll just play that. We'll play this song, we don't have to ring anyone and say, I know it's eighty S and we're in a music station, but can we play it because X, Y and Z, so we're quite free in that sense. We don't have to ring anyone, which is quite nice. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:11:23 So you're telling me Kate Bush has made a comeback. What's next, Top Gun? Jamie Cawdell (Guest) 00:11:27 She's made a comeback somehow, she's done it running up that hill. And you know what? Obviously I loved it beforehand anyway, but it's just fascinating to see the amount of 13 and 14 year olds on TikTok and things who are just like, this is the best song ever, and just rediscovering it. But, yeah, she's back in the chart, certainly here in the UK, anyway. I don't know about elsewhere, but I think it's played twice in the whole of season four and that's it twice for about 30 seconds, maybe a minute each. So in total, she's probably actually only had half the song played and has just rocketed back into the charts, which I think is brilliant. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:11:58 Do you think that's because a lot of us really love the song, but we never told anybody we love the song because we might have come off as a little silly? Jamie Cawdell (Guest) 00:12:07 Yeah, maybe. I do think some of it has something to do with there's definitely a trend at the moment with artists sampling old songs anyway, that seems to be a massive thing at the moment, so I think that probably has something to do with it. The sort of general music that's popular at the moment seems to be songs that's basically 80 songs anyway. They've just got a new drum beat underneath them and a different singer, maybe. So I think that's definitely something to do with it. The initial thought would be it's because people listening to it would have gone, oh, my mum and dad used to listen to this. But a lot of the people listening to it now, like on TikTok 13 and 14 year olds, their parents wouldn't have even really listened to it. So I think it's just down to the fact that most chart music nowadays seems to have some kind of sample in it, or is it a remix? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:12:54 What's the video strategy for the morning show? Because I know you've got a great webcam right now. Do you have any video strategy that you use for the morning show? And how do we get the video out there? Jamie Cawdell (Guest) 00:13:05 We don't, I'll be honest. It's something that I do think is important. It comes down more to budget in that we did go through a phase of setting up webcams and recording the whole show, and it was a very rickety set up in that it was basically just recording this huge file. It wasn't switching between cameras automatically, it wasn't cleverly logging it all somewhere that was easy to reach on a computer with editing software. It came down to more that we could record the show, but we didn't necessarily have the manpower to then sit and edit it all and schedule it all on social media. And my thinking was, if we can't do it well, let's not do it. So there isn't massively. We do a lot on social media, so if there's something funny martin were very lucky. When they're not lucky, they've been on air for 25 years, so anyone that has listened to them for a long time knows their characters very well. They're very strong personalities as well. They're very strong opposing personalities. So when they do stuff in the studio, we can social media eyes it and take videos and Instagram stories and stuff. So in that sense, we do a lot on social media. But in terms of what I would say, the industry standard, certainly here in the UK, the industry standard of video, we're nowhere near, and that comes down to more budget stuff like that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:14:26 Tell me about, like I know you produce demos, so what makes a good demo for talent? Jamie Cawdell (Guest) 00:14:32 Good demo for talent? I think it needs to be interesting off the bat, something that I think anyone can do. What I like to call an impression of a radio DJ. If you gave someone a script and said, I need to say that was Ariana Grande, this is radio station Save the strap line and then talk about Harry Styles for a bit. Anyone can do that. And then put on the whole DJ voice. I think a demo that is really good has to be able to show your personality. So if you took your demo and you played a family member three or four demos and they all had the voice modulated and they all got pitched down, or like they do on crime shows, they have to be able to pick your demo and go, that one's. You not on how you sound, just on what you're saying. The personality within the demo, I think people focus too much on, does it sound clean? Do I sound like a radio DJ? I don't think the stations nowadays, I think stations are moving more towards personality than people that can necessarily sound like a radio DJ. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:15:39 I want to talk a little bit about recycling content within the show, and it could be some show prep that you've come up with on a Monday that you bring back on a Tuesday or a Wednesday, or maybe you bring it back later in the hours. So can you talk a little bit about recycling the best bits on the show and bringing them back and how you would approach that? Jamie Cawdell (Guest) 00:15:57 Yeah, so we don't necessarily recycle content. Martin and sue are what I would consider content powerhouses, so they very rarely run out of things to say. They very rarely run out of content. And that in itself is a beauty, in that we don't have to do a huge amount of work going, well, we've got this story, maybe we can save it for this day in case we don't have a loss or it's a slow news day, or there's very few times we ever set aside a story and say, we might use that later. Bank holidays, that's about it really realistically. We'll say stuff in case we need to record a bank holiday show. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:16:32 What about recycling it onto social media, though? Jamie Cawdell (Guest) 00:16:35 Yeah, every now and then we've done stuff like that. So big competitions, or if there's been interviews, things like that, they don't necessarily post it afterwards. They're often of the thinking. Kyle Sandilands from Kissing, Australia said it in interview ages ago, but it's the same sort of principle. Their thinking is, why would we give someone an option to listen to the best bits of the show in, for example, a five minute podcast of the best links from that morning kind of thing, when we're trying to get people to listen to the radio? And obviously, radio stations aren't just radio stations nowadays, but at the end of the day, the listening diary that goes out once a quarter is the lifeline of the radio station. And if people aren't listening on the radio, listening to it live, then it doesn't go towards figures and that then affects sales. So their thinking is people either hear it live or they miss it and if they miss it, and they have a friend that listens to the show and they go, did you hear that thing this morning? And they have to sit there and go, no, I didn't, I missed it. That's their problem, they've missed it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:17:36 So you brought that up about the diaries. Tell me about the measurement system in England. So in London, would they be using Ppm and diaries and ethics? Jamie Cawdell (Guest) 00:17:45 No, not a chance. No. Every station here uses what's called radar. Radar diaries. I couldn't possibly tell you what radar stands for, it's radio audience and then everyone in the industry falls when they get to the J. No one can really remember what it stands for. So it's a diary system. You tick for a week which station you're listening to every 15 minutes, one tick equates to 1000 listeners, so if you get six ticks more between eight and 815, you've just gained 6000 listeners. It's a good system when you have a good book, and it's an archaic system when you don't have a good book. It's also wildly unweighted towards hits music stations. And as the station format gets older. It seems to become more fair because old people are at home during the day and old people like old these stations. And therefore they actually fill the diaries in. Whereas when they come around knocking on the door of someone who is 30 and has a full time job. They're normally not ever in and therefore they're too busy during the day filling out diaries and they normally forget or they don't do it. Or it becomes less accurate as you get younger in format. But it's a wildly archaic system and they've looked for years at finding better ways of doing it, and no one has come up with one that everyone can agree on. But all of the stations use the same system. That is the one thing I will say is fair. From national radio station owned by multi million pound group to local station that serves a broadcast area of a fraction of that size, that has maybe 50,000 listeners a week, they all use the same system, which I do think is somewhat fair. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:19:33 Is there somebody who really does go around and knock on the door and ask if somebody would like to yeah. Jamie Cawdell (Guest) 00:19:38 There'S people, they send them around and they tell you the dates as well. Like they say, this is the date we're going to be sending out the diaries, this is the date we're going to go and collect them, this is the week that they're going to be serving. So it's really easy to program a radio station to go, okay, well, this week we're going to be giving away £100,000. But they have people that go round and hand the diaries out. And since COVID, I mean, they didn't do anything for three quarters, maybe the full year, they didn't do anything because they couldn't go around people's houses they couldn't knock on doors, they couldn't do it. And the way the radar books work is you take an average of the last four books, and I don't know if that's the same in Canada or elsewhere, but an average of the last four books. So when you then don't have any audience figures for the last year, and coincidentally have just bought in a Heritage Breakfast show and spent a lot of money on Heritage Breakfast show that's been on air for 25 years, and their old radio station is still coasting off their figures for the last year during COVID, it's an absolute nightmare. But, yeah, they have people that go around and knock on the door and I think they're trying to find other ways. So I think the last audience date they did something with the BBC, where they'd compiled some figures, they'd also gathered, which seems somewhat sketchy, but that's my own opinion. And they combined them somehow. But, yeah, for the most part, it's people knocking on doors, giving out paper diaries. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:21:01 If that person came to my door, I would be taking them to the pub. Jamie Cawdell (Guest) 00:21:05 We had a technician a couple of years ago who said, oh, yes, someone knocked on my door and offered me a diary. But I'm a good person. I told them, I can't accept this and I work for one of the radio stations. And we've got account managers furious at him because we're sat there saying, why didn't you just take it in? You didn't even have to tick that you were listening to us all day. Just tick a little bit extra. But, yeah, you'd think that it would be more modern, but they just never found a way that the big groups and the small groups and everyone can agree on and they've just never I mean, if it's not broken totally, why fix it? But they've just never found a better way of doing it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:21:41 Well, we have that here in Canada, outside of the five biggest markets. But they do the recruiting by telephone. Like anybody answers the telephone anymore. Jamie Cawdell (Guest) 00:21:49 Nobody has. I don't have a home phone. I have a home phone number. I came with my broadband, but I have no idea what it is or how I would use it, where I'd use it. I don't even have a home phone. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:21:58 In just a second. More with producer Jamie as we break down everything show prep. Like how did he get the idea to come up with a business idea for the Chris service? What are some of the challenges with dealing with clients globally? And why your show prep is probably format agnostic? There's more. There's always more. Including a transcript of all the words we say@soundoffpodcast.com. Sarah Burke (Voiceover) 00:22:23 Transcription for the Sound Off podcast is powered by Poddin. Your podcast is an SEO goldmine. We help you to dig out start your free trial now at poddin dot io IO Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:22:37 The Sound Off Podcast. Jamie Cawdell (Guest) 00:22:38 Service, the same way most ideas happen. No one else was doing it and I needed a solution. So how long has it been going? We've been going for four years now, I think. So four years ago, we were using a prep service in the UK, I would say was probably considered the biggest prep service. I mean, everyone used it, there was maybe one other, but this was the main one, just everyone kind of used. And it was admittedly it was about 1015 pages more than mine. It was 35, 40 pages long, it was £35 a month, which I guess works out about 40 Cad45 roughly. And it covered a lot of stuff, it covered a lot of everything, but not actually a lot of what we wanted. So we used to do a feature that was called by the Top Three, and it was the top three stories you can talk about around the watercolor and they would be like fun studies, or they'd be an artist story or a quirky story. Man gets trapped in a car and finds a bear in the back, or something like that sort of stuff. And it was becoming increasingly harder to find three stories that we would actually use. And I was chatting to the presenter at the time and I said, it's weird, because everything else in our industry, from imaging libraries to music research to most things, are broken down into formats. So if you buy an imaging library, you buy one for an oldie station and it's got branded Intros for Prince and Queen and stuff like that, or you buy a hit music one and it's got stuff for top 40 artists. And I looked around more just to solve my own problems. As opposed to business research. To try and find like a hit music or a chur formatted prep service that only did news about artists that were in the top 40. Stories that are pop culture. That a modern top 40 station would talk about. Stranger things. All that kind of stuff. And there just wasn't anything in the UK. And I looked around outside of the UK and America had, to their credit, a couple of ones that were like country station formatted or rock stations, and that was about it. But there was nothing that I could find, and to this date, still nothing I have found that is CHR formatted. So I thought, well, then I'll do it, because I need to do it for the show anyway, and then we'll just sell it. So for two or three years, I did it on my own, spent way more hours than I care to divulge, not sleeping, because I was doing this, writing it all, searching it all, doing everything. And then after a while, it sort of started growing here in the UK, and then there are a couple of stations outside of the UK, and then, as with most things in the. Industry, just word of mouth. It just started spreading more and more. And now, I would argue most countries, I think probably we've got a list somewhere that we had, we did a year ago of countries we're not currently being used in that every now and then we focus on we look at it, we look at it up and we go, okay, Ecuador, let's see what stations are in Ecuador and get in touch. And it's just grown, just growing beyond the UK. And now it's not just me, it's a team of people, and it's just growing and growing. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:25:52 But I'm guessing that most of the American show prep is really irrelevant by the time it gets over to the UK. Because of the time difference. Jamie Cawdell (Guest) 00:26:00 Yeah, time difference plays a massive part in it. And obviously with a Top 40 show prep service, that was the other weird thing about the fact that there wasn't a Top 40 show prep service. It's the easiest show prep service to do because Dua Lipa is doing something every day, and Ed Sheeran's gone and done something every day. It's constantly changing, so it's constantly new news. But the time difference was something that was at the back of my mind as it started to get out of the UK. Luckily, we never had intention of it actually being used outside the UK. So it was never really an issue we'd thought about. And then after more and more stations started using it, I kind of did think some of these stations are going to have a great time because I think with Canada, I think you guys get it the night before, even. But then there are stations we've got in Australia, so we're on in Kiss in Sydney, and I don't think they get it until 10:00, 11:00 in the morning, so their morning shows missed it completely by a day. And it was something that we always worried about, but hasn't ever cropped up as a massive issue to customers. It's never been something we've had whenever someone cancels a subscription, we always get in touch and say, Was it us? Was it you know, is there anything we can do better? And it's never cropped up as an issue of, oh, well, yeah, it's fantastic, I get it a couple of hours later and I need it, and that's too much of a problem for me. It's never been a massive issue. Weirdly. But the first thing I thought of was, well, time difference is going to cause an issue, but it just hasn't caused as much of an issue as I would have thought it has. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:27:29 I also think that the format don't really matter either, because people in rock and country know Ed Sheeran and they know all the people that you're talking about in the CHR side of things because they're all over TV. Jamie Cawdell (Guest) 00:27:42 Yeah. And that's the other thing that was a surprise, was certainly when it was a smaller team and even when it was just me, whenever we get a new customer, I'd look it up and I'd go, okay, where are they based? What do they do? Who's using it on air? And there were stations that were oldies stations and rock stations, and hiphop stations, stations that weren't even touching top 40 music. And that was always something that was very reassuring, was the service itself was being enjoyed by shows and stations who weren't even using half of it. They weren't even using any of the stuff. Like the artists, they were bidding that off completely and just using the sort of studies and quirky stories and pop culture stuff and all that kind of stuff, and it was still useful to them. And that was a massive reassurance that the product itself was good. When we have an oldie station in Dubai who uses it and they pay the same price as everyone else, but they're using half the service and it's still something they want to continue using, it's not even necessarily format specific now. It's sort of gone beyond that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:28:51 Is it possible that Chris very uniform around the world, because in the would look at UK charts, and in the Go who's Robbie Williams and why should I care? And there was a time in the 80s when the Human League and Duran Duran obviously broke there first, but it took a long time for it to cross the ocean. And inversely, Pearl Jam only has a select few songs that are popular in the UK because rock really didn't export very well. Jamie Cawdell (Guest) 00:29:18 No, never. We really don't have a lot of rock formatted stations here in comparison. Yeah, I think top 40 stations, for the most part is similar. The only real difference is there are artists that have not crossed over from one country to another. So what we started doing very early on was we would look through the global airplay charts on the basis that if every station in the world is playing this Edge Sheeran song, then Edge Sheeran must be relevant to the most people. So we use a combination of a global airplay chart that takes into account every hit music station. We use a UK airplay charts on the basis that a large amount of customers are still in the UK. I'd say it's coming up to 60% now, but it certainly used to be a lot higher. And we used US airplay charts and then with a sort of combination of the three, we sort of come up with, okay, here's who we want to cover. And there's still artists that maybe we've covered that are still huge in Canada and the states, but maybe have fallen off the airplay chart a bit in the UK. And there's artists that are massive in the UK at the moment that are starting to make noise elsewhere and in other countries, but maybe they're not top ten material yet, and it might be another week or two until they appear in the charts there. But we've worked out a pretty good balance between global airplay charts. UK airplay charts. US airplay charts. And then combining the loss and sort of going. Okay. This is a good overview of the artists we can cover that will guarantee the most success. That when someone elsewhere in the world or wherever opens up their music log for the day. The most chance that we're going to have a story for the artists they're playing. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:31:08 What country would I Be surprised? Has a lot of popular English radio. I know. I was surprised when I saw the downloads from Nigeria, and then I had to remember, oh, yeah, Nigeria, English speaking country. A lot of hunger for some radio discussion. Jamie Cawdell (Guest) 00:31:23 Funny story, I nearly accepted a job with a radio station in Nigeria. Who had a radio station here? It was a community station here, but then they had four commercial stations in Nigeria, and I was really sort of skeptical about it. I don't really want to change where I'm going career wise at the moment. But then they said, oh, you would have to relocate to Nigeria. And I thought, I don't really want to relocate to Nigeria. I would say the United Arab Emirates. Obviously not English speaking. I don't think natively. I'm bad at geography, but I don't think natively English speaking. But loads of expats and English stations in the UAE. I don't know necessarily how many are percentage wise English speaking as opposed to native, but, yeah, we've got loads of customers in the UAE, oman, Dubai, lots of them have expat stations there, and they're often English presenters who relocate. So I've got two friends that relocated to a station, High FM, in Oman, and they love it over there. They get set up, they get paid well, which is not common in the English UK radio industry. There's not a lot of money in radio here. It's constantly warm, and they get these stunning apartments for half the price that it would cost to live in London. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:32:39 Are there any non English stations that you will have subscribed to the service who the presenter? Just knows English and will just translate it into their own language? Jamie Cawdell (Guest) 00:32:47 Yes, we've got a couple in Holland, which is where I was initially born, lived for like a year or two. So I was like when I saw they five, three eight signed up, and obviously I lost my mind because I was like, oh, my God, that's like the big hit music station where I used to live. We've got a couple in France, believe it or not, France. There are some areas in France that it's not that common. They speak English, which naively of me. I was surprised that because whenever I've been to France, they all speak English. But whenever I go to France, it's always tourist areas where they have to speak English. And I went over to visit one of the stations using the service, and I got to the reception and buzz the reception and said, oh, you're right, I'm here to see sir. And so I had no idea what I was saying and we had to go and find somebody in the office that spoke English. And Holland is not natively on air. Do they speak English? But most people in Holland speak English. Trying to think where else we've got stations where they wouldn't necessarily be in English, but would translate it. I suppose. Parts of Spain. There's a couple of stations in Spain. When I've listened. They're all Spanish. I have no idea what they're saying. We had one in Romania, which definitely wasn't English speaking. There's definitely stations that are using it to translate it as they go. I suppose that's down to the presenter more than it is the station. But, yeah, there's definitely presenters who translate it beforehand and then use it on air in a different language, which is cool. Oh, there's Malta. One in Malta used it. Forget the name of the station now, which is really bad, because I listen to them every now and then. But there's a station in Malta that translates it into Maltese. I don't know what language they speak in Malta. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:34:25 It's probably for nails, anyway. For nails? Mahoney. He's in Malta. Jamie Cawdell (Guest) 00:34:29 Yeah, probably. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:34:31 You mentioned you have a team. How many people are working on this? Jamie Cawdell (Guest) 00:34:34 So we've got a varied team around the world. And the fun fact is, we have never, ever met each other, but we talk daily. So we've got a writer in Florida. She used to work with iHeartRadio, doing stuff for them, writing specifically for them. She was a diamond in the rough. Just appeared out of nowhere. An amazing find. Incredible writer. We've got a writer who is based up north, so Scotland, here in the UK, never met him either. We've got Courtney, who looks after the customer services and just general emails. She's not full time, but she is still with us and has been for probably the longest. And then we've got a guy who is based in Holland who does like the website. Once again, not necessarily full time, but considered part of the team. I suppose he does like the website, the payment systems, all the techie bits. I don't know. He looks after that. But we've never met. We talk almost daily, but we've never met. And one day I'm going to go fly to Florida. I'm going to meet June over there who writes the service. One day I'm going to go all the way up to Scotland. One day I'm going to go and meet all these people. But for now, it's just zoom calls, because for the most part, we started acquiring people. We started acquiring most people when it was coveted, knocked down, so we couldn't fly anyway. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:35:45 Is this service a creation that came out of the Pandemic? Jamie Cawdell (Guest) 00:35:48 No, this has been going since the end of 2018. The end of 2018. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:35:54 Did it take off during the pandemic? Jamie Cawdell (Guest) 00:35:57 No, it's been slowly growing since, to be honest. There hasn't been one point where it's just suddenly rocketed. It just has slowly grown. It's nice, it's never taken. There's never been a point where I've looked at it and gone, all we need to do some marketing or we're going downhill this month, or this has been a bad month, or whatever. That's the beauty of a subscription based business, is you very rarely suddenly have a bad month. It's just sort of slowly grown from there and it's one of these sort of snowball effects, whereas it's grown more people talk about it, or other presenters go, what's that you're using? And they have a conversation about it and it's grown quicker and quicker, but it's never had a sort of initial spike of interest. It's just been slowly growing since then. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:36:40 What sort of feedback do you get from your clients that surprises you? That. Oh, you like that? I had no idea that and now I'm going to give you more of what they like. Jamie Cawdell (Guest) 00:36:50 That's a good question. I wouldn't say there's one specific bit. Obviously, I'm somewhat biased, but we've never had a stage where the product wasn't hitting the spot. It's just through pure bloody chance that it's just always been very good at what it does, because it always had a very distinguished USP. It was always intended for Top 40 radio stations, and if this is the kind of music you play, and this is the kind of stuff you talk about, it's right up your alley. And there's never been a point where we've had a huge amount of feedback. We've changed something and someone we've had five or six emails the next day going, why is this change? We don't like this. Yeah, there's never been a point where it's not been a good product. I personally feel it's got better and better as it's gone on, but there's never been a point where it hasn't hit the nail on the head, because from the very start, the idea was so straightforward that so long as we were reporting on Top 40 artists, top 40 stations never had an issue with it, because it did what it said on the tin. So, yeah, I wouldn't say there's ever been a point where we get feedback that is surprising, because it's always been if that makes sense, it's always done what it does. We do every year, we do a customer feedback survey around about Christmas time, because we take normally we're very rare with days, we're not publishing the service. Normally it's bank holidays here in the UK, but at Christmas we often pause the service for three or four days in a row, and it's about the only three or four days that we're ever not running. And we do a customer feedback survey and it's normally very survey type questions. It takes literally 30 seconds to fill in. But it's stuff like how easy are the stories to read on a one to five scale? How quickly do you think we react to things, how helpful do you find service? How much? This service saves me a lot of time from one to five. How much do you agree with that? And the thing that I always found funny is we would get stations that would reply going sometimes the content is too UK based and I'm not based in the UK and I need stuff that's not as UK based. And then you'll flip to the next, literally the next bit of feedback that's come in and it would be a station from the UK going sometimes it seems a bit too American. We want it more UK. And that's always fun. There was one feedback where they'd said, I'm an Irish based radio station, I need more stuff about Ireland and things that are happening in Ireland. And it's difficult to respond to that from a product point of view because it's never going to happen. It's always going to be roughly very generic and we're very good at because we've got so many people in different countries, obviously. June who writes it is our headwriter. She's based in America, I'm here in the UK. Alex is up in Scotland, courtney is based in I think she's Netherlands based somewhere. Cause we're very spread out. It's very easy to spot things very early on before we publish it in that June can go, just a heads up, X-Y-Z that's not going to make any sense to stations in America. And I can see stuff she's written when I'm going to go, just a heads up, June, that doesn't make any sense to anyone in the UK and we can sort of solve that quite early on. But to loop back around to your original question, there's never been a point where we've had a huge amount of feedback that hasn't been positive. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:40:03 I should probably be asking your coworker in Holland this, but when it comes to ringing the credit cards through, is it more presenters or more corporate companies who are making the purchases? Jamie Cawdell (Guest) 00:40:14 It's more presenters. I would say presenters and producers for specifically shows. So the beauty we had, or say we, I mean, in the early days, obviously it was just me when I first started it, the problem I had with the service, the prep service we were using, it wasn't hitting the spot, was that it was 35 £40 a month, which is a lot of money. So the problem with that was that an individual presenter that was a lot of money to an individual presenter. Maybe you can put it on expenses or whatever, but as it stood, 35 £40 a month was a loss of money to an individual presenter. And if you were a volunteer or your student radio or hospital radio here in the UK or community radio that was even more money because you were not being paid. And it just seemed weird that this service was a huge amount of money. The big stations that could afford that had producers and people finding this, they had people doing all this for them. They didn't need to pay a prep service company, but individual presenters who didn't have teams of producers and stuff, necessarily providing stuff for them, that was an expensive price point. So we set the pricing point very low on the basis that it would then appeal to more presenters individually on an individual level. So we've got some stations that pay for it. There's a group in Australia that pay for it for a whole group of stations, but mostly it's just individual presenters for individual shows or producers that are going to use it on one show and maybe they expense it back or something. But it's more presents and producers than it is whole stations and groups. Yeah. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:41:48 And the price is kind of similar to other subscription services that people would buy, like, say, Netflix or Hulu. You're at that subscription level for what is considered a reasonable for a month. And I don't know why we think that way. Why do we have to think that, oh, I'm going to get the chip prep service for this price. It's kind of similar to Netflix and I'm getting the same value out of it. I think we're all sort of very subscription savvy. Jamie Cawdell (Guest) 00:42:11 Yeah. And I think if you look really carefully, most really popular subscriptions are at the same kind of price point. I guess it seems the popular thing most people do is they always say it's a cup of coffee every day, it's that kind of price. But I think we did the maths. And I can't remember off the top of my head because I'm dyslexic and bad at math, but I think it works out at something like 50 P, which I guess is $70. I'm not quite sure the conversion rate a day for 25 pages a day, which then worked out 500 a month or something like that. When you actually break it down, it's almost pennies for the time that it assumes saves presenters and makes their life easier. But yeah, once it's around, a subscription is about £10 or $1213. It does seem more in line with Netflix and stuff like that. And then I guess it doesn't seem as bad. But that was always the thing that I hated about the other service we used was every time, I pay it every month, regardless of how helpful, and it wasn't that helpful in the end, but even if it had been really helpful, I'd still look at my bank statement at the end of the month and go, £35 is a lot of money. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:43:20 Yeah. And there's people in radio in the accounting office who that's an easy cut when things get tough. It's probably the first cut. Jamie Cawdell (Guest) 00:43:27 Yeah. Well, why do we need to pay for your service and a lot of presenters? That is something we found a lot of presenters pay for it themselves because it's just £10 a month. It just wasn't worth putting it through expenses or going to the PD or the content director about it. It was £10 a month. It was a Netflix subscription. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:43:45 Jamie, thanks so much for telling us about this and being on the podcast and sharing your story and talking show prep. Jamie Cawdell (Guest) 00:43:50 That's okay. I love listening to your podcast. I can already see myself driving into work in the morning listening to this and going, I'm on the podcast to listen to. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:43:58 But thanks for supporting the podcast more than anything. Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:44:01 That's Sound Off podcast, written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski. Social Media by Courtney Krebsbach. Another great creation from the Sound Off Media Company. There's always more at soundoffpodcast.com.

Aaron Rand has been on Montreal since the 70’s. I didn’t catch on to his show until the mid 80’s where he became a household name, despite working at some radio stations that weren’t known for their ratings. Right around the time AM started its decline, Aaron Rand’s show started to take off. I ran into Aaron at (what I think is North America’s best restaurant) Joe Beef while having dinner with another Montreal radio icon, Terry Dimonte. The next thing said at the table was pretty obvious – although i think it might have been a look… ya gotta get him on your show. His radio career includes all the great Montreal radio Call letters like CFCF CKGM, CBC, CHOM, CFQR and now CJAD where he once worked and now resides doing the afternoon show. It is always a joy to speak to someone who you grew up listening to. This was Aaron Rand's Departure from Q92. He would resurface at CJAD. Transcription: Tara Sands (VO) 00:00:01 The Sound Off podcast. The podcast about broadcast with Matt Cundill starts now. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:10 Aaron Rand has been a Montreal radio staple since the 1970. Now, I didn't catch onto his show until the mid 80s when he became a household name, despite working at some radio stations that weren't exactly known for attracting teenage audiences. This is right around the time AM begins its decline, and Aaron Rand's show takes off. I ran into Aaron at what I think is North America's best restaurant, Joe Beef in Montreal back in December of 2020, while having dinner with another Montreal radio icon, Terry Dimonte. I think the next thing said at the table after we met was you got to have them on your show. Or maybe it was just a look, or a group understanding. Anyhow, Aaron's radio career includes all the great Montreal radio call letters like CFCF, CKGM, CBC, SHOM, Cfqr, and now CJAD, where he's doing the afternoon show. It's always a joy to speak to someone who you grew up listening to. Aaron Rand joins me from what appears to be his kitchen in Montreal. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:01:08 I met you, I think, for the first and only time at the Joe Beef one time you guys were having dinner with Terry. I think we were there with friends. And I don't believe I've ever met you up until then. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:16 I find it incredible, though, that running in all the Montreal radio circles, I didn't run into you all that often, but we never worked in the same building and we didn't really run in the same circles. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:01:28 Yes, which is interesting over the course of however many years it's been, but I guess I'm not a big go out of the house- I was thinking about this the other day, but so many people over the years that I've worked with who I don't really know very well. And then I think back when I started at CKGM like 100 years ago, I mean, I was just married, we were just having our first kid and basically not going out, not going to functions, just being kind of a stay at home dad kind of thing, maybe catching up on sleep. So maybe that's why I didn't meet a whole lot of people then. But you're right, a lot of people have gone by. And I heard the other day, like Jim Connell is now doing a morning shift at the new, whatever it's called, CFQR, Montreal, 600AM launch. I worked with him 40 years ago, so I remember the name, but didn't cross paths really at all. It's like that with a lot of guys, not sure why. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:02:14 You went to McGill and did some radio in the early seventies. And sorry to put a date on all that because you're right, a lot of the stuff we're going to talk about here is a very long time ago. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:02:22 Yeah, I was at McGill in 71 72 and I kind of stumbled into radio at McGill. I didn't even know McGill had a radio station, because back then, you just used to walk into the Student Union building and either go to Gertie's to have pizza or go upstairs to the cafeteria. And one day I walked downstairs just because I was curious. And there's a radio station down there. It's where the McGill Daily, where the paper was. And literally as soon as I was there for, I think, maybe 10 seconds outstepped, the guy who introduced himself, I think his name was Norm David, who was the GM at the radio station, said, hi, how are you doing? I guess no one ever went down there, so if they saw a human being, they were like, oh, let's go grab this guy. And the next thing I knew, I was working at Radio McGill. That's really my first radio job, if you will. A job, by the way, I don't mean real job, because I was still going to class. So what I would do is I go down there and do like a shift at night, and I would give away cars and houses and trips because I knew nobody was listening because it was only on closed circuits. You couldn't get it. You can only get it if you lived in a dorm, and nobody in the dorms listen to Radio McGill. So that's where it kind of first started. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:03:21 That was an interesting era, though, historically, in Montreal, because there was an FLQ crisis in and around the time that you were going to school at McGill. So what was the vibe on campus? Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:03:31 I think at the time, the McGill Daily was, I guess by current standards, it's not very radical at the time. I don't remember that taking up a lot of mileage at all in terms of what was being discussed. Certainly not for us. I mean, we were pretty much immune to all of it only because we lived in our own little world at the time. Radio McGill used to carry a show on then Cfqr called Street Noise. So the people who worked there would put together this six hour package that ran for midnight to 06:00. A.m. CFD used to give us their airtime on a Sunday, Saturday night, Sunday morning, and they would produce all kinds of really actually pretty good stuff. And then one weekend, I'm not sure who brought up the idea was, let's just sit around this big conference table, all of these guys from McGill, all these radio guys, and tell jokes for 6 hours. You can imagine how well that went. And I think by about 03:00 in the morning, the poor Op who was working overnights at QR started getting phone calls. He was just trying to get some sleep because we went from relatively clean jokes, and then you're out on material and you go to the dirty stuff, and they basically cut us off somewhere around 3:30 in the morning. So that was my first experience with real sort of public radio. But we didn't speak to your question, we didn't spend that I can remember, and again, it's a long time ago, a lot of time delving into politics or the FAQ crisis or really much of anything else. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:04:45 So I'm hearing the writing, I'm hearing the jokes, and I'm hearing the gags, and you're doing it on the radio, and pretty much what you just explained continued on through the experience that I got to hear on the radio in the 80s when I grew up listening to you. Did you do any stand up? Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:04:59 Yeah, I actually worked with Sotasa, who actually we hooked up together. He had been working with a guy named Bob Brewster, a voice guy. They were working as a comedy team, a stand up team, and I was working with a guy named Ron Robbins, who was a sales rep at the radio station at the time, and we used to do stand up at that, I think, the first comedy club in Montreal that opened, I think it was called Oliver's, it was on Crescent Street at a bar. They used to call it DC Klat, I think. And you knew it was a serious comedy club because it had a pole right in the middle of the floor, so you have to sort of work your bits around the pole. Ernie Butler, who passed away not that many years ago, he had started it, and we did that probably for on and off, maybe for a year, maybe longer, maybe two, I don't even remember, and then kind of just jump from there. I was already working in radio then anyway, and I didn't start off doing the comedy stuff. I was a sports guy, so even at Radio McGill, they made me sports director, which meant we used to cover McGill-Redmond basketball games in the Curry gym from a scaffold that had been set up in the corner of the gym. I guess the comedy part of it was we ordered pizza during the game, and the kid walked into the gym holding a pizza, had no idea where to go. There's like 200 people there, didn't know who. So we did that kind of stuff. But yeah, I started off doing sports, and then even up until 1977 ish well, I worked at CBC in 75, 74-75, getting ready for the Summer Olympic Games in Montreal in 76. So I was doing research and writing for a weekly TV show. And then at the end of the games, what I probably thought was the biggest mistake of my life, I turned down a chance because CBC thought I'd done a reasonable enough job. They offered me a job at CBC Sports in Toronto, and I said no, because we're planning to go to California with friends to drive across country. And I said it seemed like the most wise decision at the time. So I left that and then ended up starting at CJFM in Montreal. So now Virgin, as their sports director, working early mornings. And Andy Papawski, Andy Harris was the news guy. So he was doing news, I was doing sports. I don't even remember who the morning guy was. It might have been Dean Hagopian at the time. Or Dan O'Neill. And then from there so that's 77 78. I got a call one day from CJD, from Bob Dunn, who was the sports director at CJD. So Balkan was doing mornings and Ted Blackman wanted to hire- Bob Dunn was now the sports director. And they offered me a job at AD. So to me that was like winning the radio lottery right? Here's this kid who's just been there for like a year or two, and suddenly you're asking me to work on Balkan's show doing sports. I did that for a couple of years, got done there, auditioned for a job doing sports on CBC TV in Montreal, was told I had the job, so I quit AD, which is a pretty ballsy thing to do for a kid working at the radio station. And it had been a great job. I got the cover, Stanley Cup finals, World Series, when we used to actually spend money sending reporters out to do that kind of shit. And I left and went to India with my then wife to hang out because she had a sister who whatever, because I thought I had a job lined up. And while I was in India, there was a CBC journalist strike that lasted something like 19 months and basically all contracts that have been signed were waived. I had no job. I lost whatever job I thought I had. So I came back to Montreal from India looking for work, and I got the classic Sorry we couldn't afford to pay you. I worked at AB and ended up going to show writing Rock and Roll News, which was an afternoon talk segment. Chris Michaels was the afternoon jock, did that for a couple of years and then I did all the spoken word interviews. So when bands would come to town, I'd be the guy. So we go into the studio and I get to talk to Joe Cocker, to Hall and Oates, to whoever it happens to be, which is also pretty cool. And then from there, I filled in for Ron Abel. Ron had been the morning man on show for a while. He left. They had me sit on or sit in during his vacation run, which lasted a couple of weeks, and I guess it went reasonably well. This is the first time I've really ever done a morning show. And then they hired me across the street at TKGM. Phil Parker, who was the GM at the time there, offered me a job doing morning. So at this point, Ralph Lockwood had left. They hired some guy in a Buffalo, New York, named Dick Reeves, I think, who is going to be the next Ralph Lockwood. I think that might have lasted six months around he didn't work. Then they hired Jim Connell, who had been doing news, I guess, to replace Dick Reeves. To replace Ralph Lockwood. Jim had done that for a few months. He went on vacation, and they fired him while he was on vacation and offered me the job. And that's how I started doing morning radio. And then a couple of months later, Rob Braid, who was then, I guess GM or PDF show, I'm not sure where, said, look, there's a guy working down at the corner video store. His name is Paul, who's really funny. You should talk to him. I think you two guys would be really good together. We met. Paul turned out to be tasked, and we worked together for 20 some odd years. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:09:42 So was the video store- was that Avenue Video on Green Avenue? Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:09:46 Right at the corner where the post office was, yeah. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:09:47 That's where I used to rent all my videos. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:09:50 That's where everyone used to rent all their videos. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:09:52 So let me get this straight. Paul was working at Avenue Video. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:09:56 Paul was the guy, when you went in, like, what movies came in and showed you around, tell you what you needed to rent, he'd give you shit if you didn't rewind your tape when you brought it back? Yeah, that was him. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:10:06 There was a significant charge, by the way, if you didn't do it at Avenue Video. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:10:10 Yeah, well- and I bet he made it funny if you had to pay. And I think that's probably what got Rob's attention. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:10:15 Is this the moment when you and Paul reconnect, as it were? Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:10:19 Well, connect in essence, for the first time, I had no idea who he was. I didn't go to Avenue Video. I'm not sure where we were living at the time. He might have been on the West Island. I don't even remember. But, no, I had no idea who he was. Then Rob said, you got to meet this guy. And he came in and he was funny, and we got along, and that was the big and he started off as the weatherman on my show. That's what he did originally, right? He did funny weather. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:10:41 I listened to it, and I remember hearing you both, and I remember hearing the weather, and I thought, this is very funny weather, including your bilingual intro to it, which was: VO 00:10:41 Ladies and gentlemen. Let's take a look at the weather. And weather replay brought to you by Dick Anne's. Here is a detailed look with tacipa. Let me tell you, the weather we had the past couple of days, we're going to get for a few more days, perhaps right through to Saturday or Saturday. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:11:02 That was done by a girl working as a secretary at the radio station. And I know she was pissed after a while that we kept using it. I think someone must have given her shit. Yeah, we use that all the time. I can't believe you remember that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:11:13 I'm going to be bringing back bits you didn't even think we're funny. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:11:16 Oh, that would be a lot of bits. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:11:19 Were you doing afternoons at CKGM around that time? Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:11:22 No, I went from doing afternoons at CHOM, doing a rock and roll show, to mornings at CKGM. Steve Anthony was probably doing afternoon. Mark Krisky was doing middays. I think Steve might have been doing drive, if I remember, at that same time. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:11:36 And as that show evolved, it's the middle of the middle of the 1980s now. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:11:42 Yeah. So it's about 83, 84 now. And then we get a call one day from Dave Middleton, who used to be the GM at CFCF because they were going through a really bad time, I guess, ratings wise. And he offered Paul and I the job doing afternoons at CFCs. This is actually a funny story. So I get this call and he wants to meet. So we go to meet it. They get Napoleon in Little Italy to a guy I've never met before. And this is a suit and tie guy, right? He's a GM. Back in the days when that's what it was and we had the meeting and it's cordial enough. And at the end, at some point, I said to Dave with Paul, so what is it you want us to do? Or do you want to take the shit we do now? And he goes, I don't know, just do whatever. So he had like zero, do this, do that. Here's what we do at this rate, nothing. Just go ahead and do this. Okay, that was fine. And then as we were to sign a contract to actually start Arts Sutherland, I don't know what his job was. He was another admin guy at CFCF. He's going to need us to go over the contract and when we start and all that kind of stuff, we go to meet at the restaurant. I'm sitting there, it's like 12 30, 12 45, no arts of him. And then I get a phone call that Arts adam has just been fired. He's no longer working at the radio station. The guy who's going to sign our deal to tell us what we're doing when we start, et cetera, but then we end up at CFCs at Am 60 during the afternoon show. Kevin McGowan was doing mornings at the time. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:13:04 I remember how complicated it was because CFCF, Canada's first, canada's finest, billed as North America's very first radio station, was in this ongoing fight with CJ ad. There was really no room for two big news behemoths at the time. So that left CFCF really looking for an identity, which was going to include you and listen. It was a station that I first started listening to. I listened to Ted Blackman and Ted Tievan and many others. CJD was just that was my grandmother's radio station. At the time, and now it's my radio station that I listened to. So I've evolved well into that station. But I remember that you and Tassel going to that station brought it a breath of fresh air. And as I listened back to it, I'm thinking that the style of radio that you brought into that building probably caused some friction and conflict. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:13:53 Yeah, that's interesting. It was very different from what they had been doing there's, no question. I think they were just happy to have ratings. So as much as people may have said, hey, what the fuck is going on there? Who are these guys? What are they doing? It found an audience. We did some pretty crazy stuff. I think the friction came, Matt, from the fact that we used to do not a bit, but a fairly regular thing where we would call, or try to call famous people anywhere around the world. So when Ferdinand Marcos was the leader of the Philippines, we called them up because we wanted to talk to a mel because her shoe budget had gone crazy. Right. I remember she had a thing where she had like 50 million pairs of shoes, and we would call and this was all long distance. And we found out a little later that we were running a five $6,000 phone bills at the radio station at the time, which they weren't really keen on. But it never became a point of friction because no one ever said, stop doing it. Right. It became a buzz. People were talking about it. We were doing something, I guess, that nobody else was doing at the time, kind of zany, kind of crazy, doing shit that we could never get away with today. Like spoke some French where we were doing I don't know if you remember that at all. Melody Pearson, who was our traffic person at the time, she would become a student and we would teach her how to save keywords in French. But the translation in English was never the same as what we had said in French by design. And people love that kind of shit. We did a thing called Ask My dad where Paul would play my father. Right. With an old Jewish accent. And I don't tell me, I know he told me. Not that kind of stuff. And people would call. We did a lot of stuff with listeners. It was just great. Listeners were involved in that show beyond just calling and asking for information. It's like they were in on the gag and they became part of the show, which I thought was really kind of cool, which no one, I don't think, had done before here. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:15:32 Did you ever get through to Moammar Gaddafi? Because I would hang over the radio just waiting for you to get through to Moama Kadafi. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:15:39 Wow. Did you ever leave the radio? How do you remember this stuff? VO 00:15:43 I was raised on Radio tamo kadafi. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:15:46 Yeah, I'm not sure that we ever got through, but we certainly made enough tries. I think we got through the Queen, or really close to the Queen one time, but yeah, jeez, that was fun. We actually got we called Letterman one day and got it to the I guess his personal set. We never actually got to the person we needed to get to, but we get really close and I remember one day I thought, this is so cool. I'm a big baseball fan, right? Because I started in sports and I wanted the Mets and Red Sox in 86 in that World Series. Right? And I'm like, I'm dying to go, and when you can't get tickets so I have covered the exposure years before, many years before, and I knew the team was staying at the Hilton or whatever in Manhattan. And I called because we discussed this and said the best way to try to get tickets is to call the concierge at a big hotel and try to bullshit your way through. So we call the concierge, picks up the phone. Yeah, hi, it's Aaron Rand from CFCF Radio. Remember, I was there with the explosive while ago. How are you doing? Good, he said, and of course they're trained to acknowledge you, right? Yes, Mr. Rand. How are you? Like, they know you. And then I said, listen, would it be possible I'm in town, I'd like to go to game, whatever, game three tonight. And we tried every other option we could, and we couldn't get tickets. He said, how many do you need? And I said, just a pair. He said, yes, let me see what I can do. First baseline be okay? I said, Fine. He said, we'll be down there tonight, whatever, to pick them up, and got tickets from a concierge at a hotel. I don't remember what they were. I had a friend who wanted to go, and I remember finishing the show that they might have left 15 minutes early, driving to the airport, getting on a plane, flying to New York, going to the hotel, picking up the tickets and going to watch the game. I think we got there in the third in it. That's the kind of stuff we used to do. VO 00:17:22 What was the biggest gap for you, like, where you got through and you didn't think you'd actually get through? And it's like, holy shit, we got through. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:17:27 We would get every level all the way up until we had to get to that person. Then they were like, they caught on. Yeah, I'm sorry, these are not available. But it was fun, right? It was fun just getting to that point to see how far you could get. That was the whole gap. VO 00:17:41 And the best part is, the only thing you really have to worry about is commercials. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:17:45 Yet. VO 00:17:45 Commercials coming up. And you could always say, we're going to hold through the break. If anything happens, we can come back and there's no records that you have. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:17:51 To play that's interesting. I don't know that we played music. I mean, obviously not like we were a music radio station, but we would play music. I mean, I remember a time we were playing Good Time Charlie. It's going to kill me now that I can't remember the name of the artist. Denny O'Keefe. And I locked myself in the studio because they give me shit for playing music or whatever. And the gag was the PD at the time would try to get into the studio. You could hear him pounding on the door. And I played the song over and over and over again. That's the kind of shit that would get you can from a job. But like I said, they were in on the gag, so that friction not really there. VO 00:18:25 So nothing is for long at Am 600 or Am 60 or whatever incarnation that they were at that time. And so is this when you move. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:18:32 Over to Cfqr so you can tell how long ago this is? I have to think about it. The radio station got sold, I think, in 1988 to Pierreka and Pierre Belong. They bought it from the Pulias rather, who had owned it, and we were still doing afternoons. They buy the radio station. They wanted to convert Cfqr, which is a beautiful music FM station. At the time, RFM and Karaka forgot what the format idea was, but he said, I want you to stay. You'll have to take a pay cut. I want you to stay. Because back then, I don't remember what they bought it for back then. I think interest rates at banks were like 14 or 15%. It was an insane amount of money to finance that purchase. And I remember Tiara kind of calling staff into a meeting one day and saying, look, we're struggling making payroll. So he was letting everybody know it might have to wait another day or two before we can issue checks. But they were such decent guys that I ended up staying. And I think the idea was, I'm a little soft on timing here, but he said, I want you to stay. I actually thought when he wanted to see me, he was going to offer me the Morning Joe, but he didn't. He said, I want you to stay doing afternoons. You're going to have to take a small pay cut, but we love what you do, and please stay. And then from there, Mark Burns. Oh, I know what they did. They turned to Am 60, they switched formats, and they turned it into kind of a music station. And Mark Burns had been doing mornings on Cfqr, so they split Paul and I up. They gave Mark paul Pasa was working with Mark, which I thought was weird, and I was doing Am drive on my own. And then the Mark Burns and passive thing didn't work out. And that's when they put us back together at Cfqr and the rest, as they say, is history. VO 00:20:12 And that station always had and was always marketed as very light favorites, like lighter than light favorites. There were a number of years in the 1990s when you were doing what you do on that radio station, which is undisruptable radio, as it were. And here you are having lots of comedy. It was good and it was light and it was fun, but it was almost like the music of the radio station throughout the 90s had to evolve to where you were rather than you conforming to what the station was. So one of the things I like is how the station always evolved upwards. Rhythmically humor, there was more fun and it all came together in the 90s. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:20:49 You're right. I mean, at the beginning the music did not fit the radio station. Although that changed, I think, as I recall, rather quickly. And I'm remembering that because I remember we were playing Madonna East Lap o Nita and the joke was you couldn't really understand what she was saying at the beginning of the song. And I thought it was last night I slept on a bagel. That's what it sounded like to me. And I remember saying that doing that joke on air, and that was real. I don't know what the fuck she's saying. Last night I slept on a bagel. And so we were already playing Madonna, which was very much different from what, I guess, the station done even a year before that. So yeah, there was that evolution in music. VO 00:21:28 I'm never going to be able to listen to that song again without singing those words. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:21:31 I think that may have been Madonna's original intent. VO 00:21:34 When does the whole show come together where it's you and Tasko and Suzanne? Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:21:38 Paul and I were working at the time, we were still in the Miguel College and it was basically a two person show. We had a kid offering, but that was character wise. And then I don't think we really evolved a whole lot or to the point where we eventually became what it became until we moved to Verdun. So we moved into the same building where SAQU and CKVL had been and then we hired a writer. I hired a kid by the name of Patrick Charles. So I think is absolutely brilliant. He's a great song parody. He's just a funny, funny and nice guy. And then bits started expanding. So it's like, let's take this and make this funny and then begin to play on the fact that Paul could do so many voices. And here's where it gets interesting politically. So, yeah, the PLQ crisis didn't really register or the PQ crisis when I was at school, but suddenly politics was everywhere in the news. The PQ were a force and so Paul could do an unbelievable Jacques periso. We would do bits that had to do with politics done in. A funny way, which I don't think anybody else was doing. So Paul would. If you listen, you'd hear Perryzo goofing off on something and people just kind of bought in. There was a guy named Joseph Fakao who was a PQ member, who I think at one point was considering running for leadership of the party. So we sat down and said, let's do this bit where you are, Joseph. Oh, no, you're Jacques Perryzo talking about why you support this guy, but it was gold because the guy's name was fatal and Perry's no would do. VO 00:23:04 I remember when I went to school. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:23:06 With him, everybody called him Sweet Fakow, and it's just one joke to another, and I hear Suzanne crying in the background, laughing at that shit. So that became kind of that third person on Mike, or just off Mike. Laughing gives you the impression of having a bigger show, more people involved. And Patrick had a great laugh, and I think that's when it began to change. VO 00:23:28 And I'm thinking also back to that era of Montreal radio. You guys are being funny, but that era was really serious politically. 93, 94, 95 and then there's a referendum, and Montreal is in the middle of all that. There's a lot of fear, there's a lot of news every day about the subject matter over and over again, but everybody is drawn to the radio for the news, but then they need relief from it, and then they go to you for the relief, and they can get some comic relief on this. Now that we're talking about it, I think this is where everybody really does connect. This is where you get your mass audience in Montreal. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:24:03 Well, it's interesting because, as you say, that we thoroughly ignored that. The last thing we did was try to be serious about anything. Like you said, you had that the rest of the day everywhere else. So we were just like, hey, if you can't make fun of this, if you can't have fun with this, what's the point? That's not what we do. We're not here to break down the news. We're not here to analyze what's going on politically. We think it's stupid, we think it's divisive. So what's the best way to treat it? Make fun of it, have fun with it. And that's what we did. And obviously that resonated with people. VO 00:24:31 Did anybody call to complain and felt you'd gone over the line on anything? I'm sure you got a bunch of. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:24:37 Them every single day someone called to complain or someone said, what do you do? But sure, but I almost think that if that didn't happen, we weren't doing our jobs right. You're going to offend somebody. I mean, we live in a different time now. Like I said, I don't think you could do what we did then, now, and get away with it. But back then, yeah, but the station, to their credit, never came up and said, hey, you guys push too far, you cross the line. They just like, hey, keep doing what you're doing. It's working. We're happy, you're happy. Let's keep going. And that was a huge bonus. I mean, I worked in enough places where when there's pushback, sometimes, you know what lines not to cross. They never did that to us. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:25:17 In just a second, more with Aaron Rand as we talk about the end. VO 00:25:20 Of his time on the air with. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:25:21 Taso and Suzanne Desotel at Q 92. He's moved to CJAD a glimpse into the current political climate in Montreal, and have been talking about some of the comedy that made his show so durable. Well, I managed to find a decent sample online. There's more. There's always more. Including a transcript of this episode@soundoffpodcast.com. Tara Sands (VO) 00:25:43 Transcription the the Sound Off podcast powered by Potent your podcast is an SEO goldmine. We help you to dig out, start your free trial now at potent. IO. The the the Sound Off podcast is. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:25:58 From CFCF in 1987, and the show featured Aaron Rand with passopathsy caucus, aka Paul's A. Cave. All I know is that no one would ever get away with this today. Speaker 5 00:26:11 Hello, john Zenos, please. Speaker 7 00:26:13 Speaking. Speaker 5 00:26:14 John, it's Bill Starmer from the Montreal license bureau here in San Bruno. Speaker 7 00:26:19 Yes? Speaker 5 00:26:20 I understand you had your license suspended for three months a little while ago. Speaker 7 00:26:24 Yeah. Speaker 5 00:26:24 Well, the case has come back up for investigation. It's just crossed my desk, and I'm afraid I have to inform you that because of the incidents and the circumstances that came up, we have to suspend it indefinitely. Now, of course, that we don't do this arbitrarily, you'll have a chance to come by the Bureau and plead your case, but we would like to set an appointment up with you. Can we do that now? Speaker 6 00:26:44 What are you talking about? Speaker 5 00:26:45 You had your driver's license suspended. Speaker 6 00:26:48 Pardon me? Speaker 5 00:26:49 Did you have your driver's license suspended? Speaker 6 00:26:51 Yeah. Speaker 5 00:26:51 All right. The case has come up before me. We review all our cases for DUI here at the end. Speaker 6 00:26:56 I'll come and see you someday. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:26:58 I'll tell you what, I'd like to. Speaker 5 00:26:59 Make an appointment with you now because we don't want to suspend this without giving you a chance. Okay, John. Speaker 6 00:27:05 Give me what? Speaker 5 00:27:07 We'd like to hear your side. So, we'd like to set up an appointment. How would Friday of next week be? Speaker 6 00:27:15 You're not serious. Speaker 5 00:27:16 I know, I'm sorry. Speaker 6 00:27:18 Are you serious about this? Speaker 5 00:27:19 Yes, sir, we're very serious. Speaker 6 00:27:21 You don't sound to me. Speaker 5 00:27:22 Well, can we make an appointment for next Friday, or would you prefer I call you back. Speaker 6 00:27:26 Call me back later. Speaker 5 00:27:27 Call you back later, yeah. Is Friday not good for you? Speaker 6 00:27:32 Maybe, I don't know. Speaker 5 00:27:33 Well, sir, this is a very serious matter. Do you have legal representation? Do you want me to call your lawyer? Speaker 6 00:27:38 No. Speaker 5 00:27:38 All right. Would you like to make an appointment then for next Friday? Speaker 6 00:27:41 Not really. Speaker 5 00:27:42 Well, when can you come in? Speaker 6 00:27:44 I'm not planning to come in anymore. Speaker 5 00:27:47 You have to come in. Speaker 6 00:27:49 Why? Speaker 5 00:27:49 Well, because this is a legal matter. Speaker 6 00:27:52 It's a legal matter? Speaker 5 00:27:53 Yes, sir. Speaker 6 00:27:54 All right. We'll follow the legal proceedings. Speaker 5 00:27:57 All right, I will send you a letter then, if that's the way you'd like it. Speaker 6 00:28:00 Perfect. Speaker 5 00:28:00 All right. Mr. Zenos? Speaker 6 00:28:02 Yes? Speaker 5 00:28:03 When is your birthday, by the way? Speaker 6 00:28:05 Why? Speaker 5 00:28:05 I'm just curious. I'd like to know for our files here. I have made today. It's today? Speaker 6 00:28:09 Yeah. Speaker 5 00:28:10 All right, so thank you very much. Speaker 7 00:28:11 Okay. Speaker 5 00:28:12 Mr. Zeno, just one other thing. Speaker 6 00:28:15 Pardon me? Speaker 5 00:28:15 One other thing. Speaker 6 00:28:16 Yeah? Speaker 5 00:28:17 It's Aaron Rand calling from CFCF. From Am 60. Speaker 6 00:28:19 Oh, yeah? Speaker 5 00:28:20 Happy birthday, John. Thank you very much. Thank you, John. Had to worry there, huh? Speaker 6 00:28:34 Yeah. Okay. Speaker 5 00:28:35 Thanks, John. Okay. Eight before six there's. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:28:37 What had he said? Speaker 5 00:28:38 No, I didn't want to play that back on the mirror, but if you do want us to do that to a friend, you have, or you already had sent us a letter, would you please put birthdays on the outside? Eight before 06:00. Eight before six is our time. VO 00:28:50 So I'm remembering a bit, and it could have been anywhere in the not have been in the 90s, but you wound up calling this woman who had just given birth to a beautiful baby boy named Patrick. But Tasso gets on the line, and it's acting like a government official who insists that the baby being named Petris. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:29:07 I remember that vaguely, but not specifically. Did he call as a government minister or something? VO 00:29:13 Yes. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:29:14 Yeah, that's certainly something we would have. VO 00:29:16 Done, but that's gold. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:29:18 I'd be pretty handy right about now, frankly. So now that everything's going to have to be in French, that would be a great fit to pull back again. VO 00:29:24 I have that on the list for you to break down. I don't want to kill the audience just yet with this, honestly. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:29:30 I mean, I remember as something we did, but I don't remember the specifics of it. Did she cry? She took it as being real, right? VO 00:29:37 Yeah, for a bit. And then you let her off the hook and was funny. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:29:39 We did a bunch of those, I think, later on called the wake up calls. So we would have people send us a situation where we call someone up, pretend to be serious. I called the guy once, pretending to be someone in his building, and he had to stop parking his car in this one particular spot, and if he didn't, we were going to have his car towed. He went ballistic because he bought it. And he was like, I'm going to kill you. I'm going to find you. Don't tell me where to buy. It was great. And then, of course, the gag when you reveal and pretty much, I'd say, 99 times out of 100, they'd start to laugh. We got hung up on one that I can remember, but surely that was great. VO 00:30:13 Tell me about the competition in the market. It got really odd when ratings would come out because here's English Montreal with really three very large radio stations competing for some pie. There's a few others that are fighting over some other stuff because Am radio begins to really sort of pull back. But you open up the ratings book and it's like, what is the gap between The Terry Demente show and Aaron Rand show? And it seemed to be like a two horse race for many years. Of course, CJD was always CJD. So when you look back on that era, how do you view the competition amongst those shows? Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:30:47 It's funny to describe it as competition. I'm not sure if it's unique to Montreal as a radio market, but I don't know, I never really felt I mean, yes, there's another radio station and we're basically fighting for the same audience. Although you might argue that if you're listening to Sean, you're not listening necessarily to QR to the queue. I think it was the guys in the front office who were like, okay, here's how it breaks down. So they have, I don't know, 25 34. You have 35 49 or 35 54. And I think the big thing for us was the fact, and certainly for them, because I've never really been one of those guys to sit down and break down ratings books. I just figured I'll keep working till the ratings are shitty and they'll let me know and I won't have a job anymore. And I've been lucky that way because it's never come to that. Well, I mean, except at the end when the ownership changed and they decided they wanted to go different ways. But when they told us that we were number one in the market in breakfast men and women, because that has never happened before. At the Beat, it was always female centric demo. That's when we knew we were on the right track. So suddenly, 35 54 were number one in men, number one in women, number one in adults. That's kind of what solidified things for us. I like Terry always. I mean, the little we have to do with each other. I like Terry. We got along fine. It was never the kind of thing where the radio guys got together in the city. I know someone tried to put that together a couple of times, right? They'd invite the morning men to get together, which was weird because we weren't hanging out with each other to begin with. So you'd sit there for an hour and be cordial and you had no reason not to be. But I don't know, the competition here in this market is the same as it is perhaps in other major Canadian markets. I don't know. It's like when Terry and I started doing the Gripes on CTV with Matsumi. We're like, we're buddies. I mean, when Terry left to go to Calgary, I call Terry on air live on our show. And I heard about that from people saying, are you crazy? You can't do that. You can have one radio station call another station and wish them good. VO 00:32:39 Why? Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:32:39 We're all in this thing together. What's the big deal? That's how it had been up until then. I never understood that. I'll get it. VO 00:32:46 Well, it's again, front office people who are inside the pickle jar and can't really read the label. I guess I was part of that, by the way. I got a smell and a whiff of it. But yeah, I thought the era was incredible because we had this choice, we had these two born and raised Montreal, and I thought, nobody can really come in. It's very difficult for somebody to come from afar to be able to do morning radio for a long period of time. And I'll say hi to Kat Spencer, who's done it very well for many years, who came from Edmonton. But it's hard. Montreal is not an easy place to be doing radio. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:33:20 Well, you think back to when John Deringer came to show that was supposed to be a cakewalk and it turned out to be a disaster. So, yeah, I mean, you're right. The history shows that. I'm kind of wondering, just off topic, how it's going to play and show them now? VO 00:33:32 Yeah, absolutely. Well, every time Terry leaves the city, 15% to 20% of the audience leaves and you've got to find a way to replace that. He went to Calgary. We already have the numbers on that. So they had to bring him back. I guess this is a good time to ask you, I guess in 2009, when you were told that Suzanne and Tassel would be leaving and you'd be staying on, how did that come about and why? Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:33:52 Honestly, I don't know. I know we had changed TDs at the time. In the back of my mind, and I don't know this to be the case, but I think Mark Dickey became the GM, and I think Mark was out to prove that he could do things differently, maybe save the station some money, didn't necessarily like the way the show was going. I don't know if it was a matter of numbers or not in terms of ratings. I think he wanted to make his mark and his mark was not to have that show continue the way it was. And listen, if I'm being perfectly honest, I think when they let Paul and Suzanne go, they expected that I would leave, but I was under contract and I wasn't going to walk away and give him the satisfaction of being able to say, look what I did. I got rid of all these guys. And it was really pretty awful because I remember they kept stringing Paul along, saying he was ready to negotiate his contract and they were like, oh, no, we'll talk in another week or two. And what they were doing as it turns out, was waiting until that period of his contract was over so they could just say, Sorry, you're done. Which I thought was really shitty, but not necessarily unusual in this business. I felt terrible and really, it wasn't the same after that. I think that's pretty obvious. But that's what the deal was. I had a contract, I was going to work it out and do the best I could. They brought in Sarah Bartok from Toronto. Sweet kid, but obviously never going to be the same. And then Brian deposit brought in as PD, I think, to facilitate that change. I'll never know this for a fact. I don't know if they had a plan to kind of gradually ease everybody out instead of just saying, hey, we want to make a change, here's what we're going to do. So, I don't know, shout out to. VO 00:35:19 Chorus Entertainment for all that. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:35:20 I had a conversation just a couple of days ago with Brian Kennedy, who used to be the GM before Mark Dickie, talking about Chorus and what it was like having gone from the local ownership here to suddenly the suits from Chorus coming in. And John Hayes, who was running radio at the time, walked in one day. Never met him. We just knew we had owners from Toronto. And John walked in looking like he just got that at GQ, right. Three piece suit, tie, the whole load. And I thought, this is not good. But he walked in and he was as nice as could be. Loved your show, love what you do, whatever else. But it was a pretty short lived marriage as well because they were out of here. I don't even think they lasted two years. I'm not even sure. I don't know how long that lasted. VO 00:35:58 Yeah, that sounds about right. And I was in that company, too, at that time as well, and I was working in management. So everything you said checked out, of course. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:36:06 Yeah. VO 00:36:07 Out of Winnipeg. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:36:08 Again. I'm getting off topic. Is Chorus like, a serious player in the radio industry now or are they more of a TV company or content company? VO 00:36:14 That's a great question that I don't think anybody really knows between all the mergers with Shaw and Course. But they've got a lot of radio stations still across the country and they're still doing the talk format out in the west of 680 in Winnipeg, 630 Chad, QR 77 and CKNW in Vancouver and Am 640 in Toronto. So they've got the Global News Network now. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:36:35 That was an interesting time, for sure. VO 00:36:37 Yeah, well, I think there was a lot of panic with contracts because they just come out of we come out of 2009 when there was a bit of a recession. And by the way, I don't think anybody's told you this, but Corey hired Terry Dementia to go to Calgary. That had a lot to do with Disenfranchising showmethm in order to get 92.5 more listeners. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:36:58 So when you look at a deal. VO 00:36:59 Like that, there are two parts at play to that deal. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:37:02 I've never heard that before. VO 00:37:03 I thought about it. Nobody had ever said it. But that's what I think Horace's calculation was at that time, that we can take territory Montreal, we can boost 92 five and disenfranchise the listings from shown to go to 92 five. And at the same time we can build Calgary and take on Jerry Forbes. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:37:17 Yeah, except, I mean, that shown audience in our audience would have been two different audiences, wouldn't it? VO 00:37:21 Again, the people in the front office, who knows why they think this stuff up, right? Let's not question them. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:37:26 Fair enough. VO 00:37:27 Is angle radio underserved in Montreal. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:37:30 That's a really interesting question and I'll tell you why. And maybe I'm crazy. I've been thinking about this lately because with Cfqr, that new Am 600 station that's signing on apparently is the big challenger to CJD. Somehow they've had a broadcast license for ten years and just now, literally this week, have finally signed on, have a frequency and have apparently a web page, but don't have anything beyond that. So if the idea was you have to counterprogram to CJ ad, what are you doing and why have you waited this long and what's your idea? But to me, where I think the understurving here is as far as music goes, I don't understand how Montreal does not have a boomer or a zoomer station. Like, how is that possible? Out East Maritimes, I think Stingray owns a pile of radio stations with that format. I don't know where they are around the rest of the country. I know Toronto obviously has them, but how is it that that demographic which is growing, that 50 or 55 plus demographic that wants to listen to that music or to that kind of talk doesn't have a radio station it can call its own? To me, that's a hole in the market. Maybe I'm crazy and maybe it wouldn't work on Am, but certainly it would seem to me if you have at least two classical music stations in the city, why don't we have a station serving those kind of people who want to listen to stuff from the maybe even from the 50s? Where is that? Those are also people who don't stream radio. They're not on the internet every day trying to find their favorite songs. They expect to hear this by just turning on radio. So I wonder if that's something that someone is going to try to put together, because it seems to me there is a market for that. You tell me it's licensing. VO 00:39:03 It's very complicated to get a license, and especially if you're going to bring an English license where you're going to play 100% hit Anglophone music that's going to draw from the French side who have thick regulations of 65% Francophone music and there's going to be 100% interventions from all those players. So licensing is very complicated, which is really a shame. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:39:26 It makes me think back to when she tried to do a sort of bilingual program. You remember how their knuckles wrapped because of it from the French radio stations who weren't allowed to do that kind of a thing. I wonder if we ever get around that. VO 00:39:37 Well, there's a radio review and Bill C Eleven that's making its way through. So maybe it opens things up or maybe it makes things worse. But only the people inside Trudeau's inner circle right now with Bill C Eleven are going to be able to let us know that. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:39:49 Yeah, we actually talk about the fact that you kind of wonder, even though it's federally regulated, if this whole Built 96 issue will allow the provincial government to stick its nose into radio or media in general. Federally chartered business, federally regulated business, but so are banks. VO 00:40:04 So I'm glad you brought that up. We've talked about two bills already. I'll explain that to the audience and what both of them mean, but you're in the middle of it every day at CJ ad. In fact, just before you get that, how did you get on CJAD? Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:40:17 I got a call after leaving Q. I left in May and decided to take some time and just go sit on a beach somewhere and didn't do it. And I got a call from Chris Barry, who's now the, I guess, managing director, whatever he is. And it's interesting because Chris had worked for me as the producer for our morning show, too. Not for very long, because that just wasn't a fit. But he called me up saying, can we meet for lunch? Okay. I thought it was just, here's a guy I know from having worked here or whatever, maybe he just wants to talk about me having left, and we meet for lunch, and he's talking to me about politics and news, and I'm like, okay, and nothing happens. He calls me up a week later, can we meet for lunch again? This happened two or three times, and he's talking about the same kind of stuff all the time. And the next thing I know, he's like, so what do you think about coming to work over at CJD? And then I realized all these lunch meetings had been to see if you actually have a clue about what's going on in the world and could expand on any of these issues, which I thought was kind of cute in a way, but that was the research he was doing to me. That's one of those things where even if you work as a DJ, if you want to call it that, I think the assumption is guys who do morning shows or do funny radio just do that and don't have a clue. And I've always thought that's a great disservice to people in the business. Everyone does prep. You need to know what's going on to be successful in business no matter what format you're in. So to assume that the person you're talking to, just because they did this specific kind of radio, they must not be able to really care about or know much of anything else I thought was really kind of embarrassing in a way. I don't know about you, but to me, you need to know what's going on to be able to pull off this job, no matter what format you're in successfully. So to think they don't know anything that's going on, that's a bit insulting. VO 00:42:00 Yeah, it really depends on I think FM radio in the US. Is very music driven, and that is a longer bridge for them to cross over, to go to talk radio, which, as we know in the US. Talk radio is all sorts of things generally on Am and a lot of dragon breathing and setting fire to things to the point where and I know you know Valerie Geller, and in her book, she has an entire chapter dedicated to going from rock to talk, but you've been immersed with it for forever. This was really the crux of your writing and your performances and what you did on the radio. So yes to that. Yeah, it is kind of insulting to think that you can't do it. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:42:38 They wanted to cover all their bases just to make sure I'm sure you came with a checklist. Let's talk about this. Let's see if he knows anything about that. And then at the end of it, it's like, Would you like to work here? VO 00:42:47 So all that to say, it really wasn't a difficult transition to get on CJ ad and just start talking. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:42:52 You know what, it's interesting, though, in my mind, it may have been because I've never done a strict talk show and I know what ad was. It is. So I was kind of flying blind, honestly, for the first week or two. And you work with a producer. I never really worked with a producer before, but it became a lot smoother than perhaps I thought it would. It did not take long to fall into that. VO 00:43:13 I'm guessing that the show prep is different. That's really the only thing yeah. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:43:17 Show prep. When we did our morning show with me looking at Tesla saying, okay, you're Dave, he's stoned. He went to vote, and you're asking me to come to your house. And he was so good at being able to take the germ of an idea and turn it into a bit know that we only had two minutes to do it in, or whatever it was that was the prep. The prep was I hate to make it sound like it was dinosaur times. No Internet, no nothing, no whatever. You picked up a paper in the morning or you'd watch the news the night before and created something that you would literally do on the fly the next morning. We never wrote stuff down. I didn't say read. I mean, maybe you want you twice, but typically it wasn't, okay, here's the character, here's the bit. Let's go. And sometimes it would fall flat or maybe kind of half hit, and other times it would be gold. But that was the beauty of doing it that way. And then all of a sudden you're at ad. If I showed you my prep list for today, I have everything timed out, every interview, every segway, it's all there because that's what you kind of have to do when you're doing talk. So it's completely different. But thankfully now we actually have a producer. VO 00:44:19 Do you still get newspapers in the morning? Do you get a hard copy of the show now? Yes, you do. You're holding it up. And there it is. You get the Gazette, I get the. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:44:28 Hard copy, and everything else I read online. You're not the presence of Ware, Washington Post, the New York Times, or whatever happens to be it's like professional skimming. That's what we do with print nowadays, which is amazing when you think back to how little information you have to work with back then, to how much information you have to work with now. VO 00:44:44 Can you walk me through Bill 96? Because every once in a while I look at Montreal and I go, is it safe to move back? And now I look and I go, no, it is not safe just yet. And what I mean safe is I want to be kind of free of all the things that we've kind of alluded to. And that's like an FLQ crisis, a 1995 referendum, Bill 101, the exodus to Toronto in 1976. Can I go and live a life without having to feel that there's controversy around me? So here's Bill 96. What's going on? Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:45:15 It's all over again. It's a government fighting the same war that doesn't exist now that did then. Because and I don't know what the because is, you have a premier running a province who was a separatist, so we're going to assume he's always a separatist. And I think the conspiracy theory now and I'm not even sure it's a conspiracy theory anymore, I think it's probably a well documented theory. Here's a guy trying to extract as much as he can from the federal government, create a rift between the two when there's something he can't get and use that as the basis to say, see, we can't get this. This should be under our control. This means we probably should have a referendum or separation. So trying to get to the same place without having to go through what happened the first time around, which is what happened in 1995 when we barely managed to stay within the country. He appointed two former separatists, Diehards, including one who ran for leadership of the party, kevin Kwa in Bernard Dranville, who actually was the father, if you can, of the charter of values that never took. Hold because they lost the election, which would have had all public servants not being able to wear a hijab, aquifer a crucifix, whatever. So why would you do that? If you paint yourself as a party that doesn't want to have or doesn't need separation at its core. So there's a lot of different theories as to why they're doing this. But to your question, is it safe? I don't know. I don't think so. If you're an Anglo coming back here and you don't speak French well enough, I think you're going to run into trouble. And I know the government has said otherwise, but they always say one thing and do another. And the fact that there is a notwithstanding clause in front of all this legislation, meaning you can't even challenge it because that's why it's there. No, I mean, if you want to learn French and if you want to be able to function in French and you expect to be served in French, that's fine. If you expect to be served in English and get services from the government in English going forward, I don't think so. And just this week, marriage licenses, birth certificates, death certificates, all have to be in French. It's a great time to be in the translation business in Quebec. VO 00:47:13 And so that bit that I referenced earlier where you were just joking about somebody named Patrick being forced to be called petris here it is. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:47:20 That's why I said it. Absolutely. We are at that stage. Again, it's funny, but it's not funny. VO 00:47:26 The PQ government will always do this, and it always seems to stoke both sides. Are people really buying this? Like, on the street? Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:47:34 I think there's been usually what happens is you get pushback from the Anglo community to the Alafone community because it's typically against them. But I think they're now starting to see something we have not seen in a while, which is pushback from the Francophone community and especially pushback from French media, which almost never happens. They look at some of the rules in Bill 96 and say, okay, this is excessive, and it's for no reason. The government's condition or the government's logic in wanting to do this is to protect and promote the French language. Right? That's the boilerplate why we're doing this. But at the end of the day, it's not a zero sum game. You don't protect the French language by diminishing or eliminating the English language. And then about a week ago, the Premier actually came out and brought up something that I think raised a lot of eyebrows. The idea that he said, we have figures to suggest that there's not as much mother tongue French being spoken in homes. And that was one of those, wait a second. It's none of your fucking business what language gets spoken in homes. What are you doing? And I think that kind of woke some people up and scared some people to say, okay, this is going too far. What's going to happen? Putting a cap on the number of English students who can go to CJ in this city. That kind of thing has made people say, okay, even on the Francophone side, not the hardliners, but the moderates, this is too much, it's not necessary. And then the other day, 37 tech companies with a warning to the government, this is going to hurt the tech sector. We can't get immigrants to come here from other parts of the world if we're going to force them to learn French in six months or no longer be able to receive services from the government in English. So a lot of individual components in this bill are scaring people. The question is how much of it will actually get implemented and how much will be delayed? Because that seems to be the government's new thing now, right? If there's enough pushback, they're not going to implement it for two years. They're not going to say, we're going to take it out of the bill. They just say, we'll wait to implement it. That's as much as we get. The question is, how much farther will keep going? VO 00:49:24 Do you think there's an implication for radio with this? Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:49:27 I don't know. That's what I said before. We're kind of protected by that umbrella of we're federally regulated in this country. But as I said, Canada Post, the railways, the banks, they are federally regulated businesses as well. They're all conforming now to build 101, which has been around for a long time, and most of them apparently are now. And with the federal government, I guess, turning its back in a sense, saying they'll also go ahead and follow through with Bill 96, which is the federal government not wanting to confront the provincial government, not wanting to start a fight because they know where that fight leads. So we're in very kind of strange ground right now. VO 00:50:05 The two things that I find different from 1976 to now, I mean, they're fairly obvious. One is the Internet. The Internet is largely in English, and a lot of people are doing their learning on there, and they're spending time on there. So we have to figure that's going to get regulated in some capacity in Quebec. Who knows? With the other bill federally, with Bill C Eleven, what's going to happen? But you mentioned it, and that's the tech side of things. But also Montreal. Montreal is more Anglo and alaphone than it is Francophone. I'm just looking at just solidly the island, not the entire city of Montreal. Montreal again, is really caught in the middle. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:50:38 Yeah, it is Montreal. There are two Quebec. One is Montreal and one is the rest of Quebec. Montreal is a functioning bilingual city with Francophones. All of the sames anglophones. The other difference, by the way, Mac, from 1976 to now, is there are 100 times more bilingual people in this city, in this province, than there were before. 76. The French factor then was we're getting taken advantage of. That's why we needed to create the party. Tibet in Bill 101. It's not 1976 anymore, but for the most part, Anglophones here speak French and function in French and, as I said, are more bilingual than ever. So that's a fake battle against something that no longer exists. But that's what this government is wanting to fight and that's what they're hoping people buy into. And that's just not honest. VO 00:51:22 Especially when you get radio ratings and you can see how many people are listening to you. Well, here's the English people who listen to you. Here are the Francophones who listen to you. And we know that that's not really a thing because so many people speak both languages and live and work in both languages. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:51:36 Yeah, and that's something discovery just prefer to ignore. VO 00:51:40 Aaron, every time you mention a restaurant and where you went, I just wanted to know what restaurant you ate at. I mean, it's the most Montreal thing to say. Where did you have lunch with Chris Barry anyway, when you were cutting that deal? Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:51:49 So Chris Barry was at should I forgot what it's called in the Pepsi Forum. It's not there anymore. They didn't have big budgets, I guess, for lunch. Julietta Romeo. I forgot what it was called. The Old Montreal Forum, which they turned to this thing now. So. Yeah, I saw you with Joe Beef. VO 00:52:04 Yeah, we're Joe Beef. And that's where I got the idea to have this conversation with you. I know it was like over a year and a half ago, but that's why I wanted to have you on it, because in that moment I was. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:52:13 Like, oh, I got to sit down. VO 00:52:15 With Aaron Ran and have this conversation. I want to thank you for taking the time to do it today. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:52:19 I just want to tell you how impressed I am that you remember the most weird or the most innocuous bits that even I can't remember from that many years ago. So thank you for that. VO 00:52:29 I wish I'd spent more time listening to you, but I wasn't always living in Montreal. I do actually listen to you on the smart speaker every afternoon, so I can just say, hey, Alexa, play CJD. And there you are. We live in great times. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:52:41 We do battle how the Internet would have changed things if we had that back in the 1990s. VO 00:52:45 Aaron, thanks so much for doing this. I know you got a big day of CJD ahead and enjoy your summer. I know you've got F one coming up. You've got the just for laughs You've got all the great Montreal festivals that take place, and as well, a lot of construction and cones. Aaron Rand (Guest) 00:52:58 Don't forget the cones. Tara Sands (VO) 00:52:59 The Sound Off podcast. Written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski. Social Media by Courtney Krebsbach Another great creation from the A Sound Off media company. There's always more@soundoffpodcast.com.