This week's guest is Dave Beasing. Dave is the CEO of Sound That BRANDS, an audio production and consultation company with a focus on creating brand-affiliated podcasts. We talk with Dave about his career in media branding, the philosophy behind Sound That BRANDS, and what makes a good branded podcast compared to a lazy one. Of course, we also dig into all the services the company offers, such as free consultation, full documentaries, and the big one: end-to-end production. Sound That BRANDS will help establish a branding strategy, find you guests, and handle writing, editing, sound design and distribution. They're the full package, and Dave unpacks it with us in this episode. They also have a blog to keep you up-to-date on all the biggest and freshest branded podcast news. Even if you're an independent podcaster, or just someone who's interested in the industry, it's still a great read- and totally free! Check it out here. If you'd like to work with Dave and the team at Sound That BRANDS, visit their website here. You can also connect with Dave on Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn. Transcript: Tara Sands (VO) 00:00:01 The Soundoff Podcast. The podcast about broadcast with Matt Cundill starts now. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:10 This week, Dave Beasing makes a return to the show. We spoke with him back in 2018, not long after the creation of his company, Sound That BRANDS. Today, that company makes some of the best branded podcasts. And I know you're saying to yourself, what is a branded podcast? Well, if it's a good one, it's a podcast that is commissioned by a brand and often you don't always know that there's a brand behind the show. Neat. The content is engaging and doesn't feature any pitching or pricing or anything like that. It's long form marketing. It's been over five years since Dave left 100.3 The Sound in Los Angeles. We documented that radio departure extensively back in episode 107. Right then, here we go. Dave Beasing joins me from his home in Los Angeles. Was your studio built before you jumped into Sound That BRANDS? Dave Beasing (Guest) 00:01:01 No, it was not. It was something I worked on right after I left the radio station. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:07 I'm going to need a flashback here. Did that happen in 2017? Dave Beasing (Guest) 00:01:11 It did, yeah. We shut down November something of 2017. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:15 It seemed so long ago. But then again, I just checked the calendar and it was so long ago. Dave Beasing (Guest) 00:01:20 Yeah, exactly. It was so long ago. In today's world, that's a while. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:24 So the first time that I saw you was like, 2018. And I think could have been podcast movement, could have been the conclave, but either way, you were going to make the jump and you were going to jump into podcasting. You didn't tell me how. I think you were either keeping a secret or you didn't know. Which was it? Dave Beasing (Guest) 00:01:38 It was probably I didn't know because because the way I blab, I probably would have told you. I knew for years that that was probably where I'd be headed. I could have probably stayed in Radio and got offered the opportunity to move to wonderful places like Sacramento or whatever. And a year after I turned things like that down, I realized that there have been two program directors in that seat since they offered it to me, and a new general manager has arrived. So it's like, no, I'm not moving my family for radio. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:02:08 Yeah, I was offered a job in 2018, a really, really good radio station, too. And, you know, it's one of those bucket list ones. And then I thought, you know, if I'm gone in three years, then I haven't moved. Dave Beasing (Guest) 00:02:22 Yeah. No, I get it. It's tempting to try to put one of those on your resume, bucket list one, but I don't know if that really makes a difference in the world anymore beyond radio. So you'd be back at this. You're right. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:02:34 And you form Sound That BRANDS. How would you grade yourself? I give you an A, but you might grade yourself a little bit harder. Dave Beasing (Guest) 00:02:41 Yeah, I'll give myself an A minus. I'm really pleased with how the company has grown, but I want it to grow faster. I guess that's every entrepreneur probably says that. What I didn't realize is the investment that should be made in sales. We do great work and most of it is referrals. Sometimes it's white labeling for studios, oftentimes it is because we don't have salespeople out there who are knocking on doors and trying to find brands to do this. We tried that, actually, and it didn't work that well. I think we were a little bit ahead of things at that point. Now it would probably be different, but I'm finding that a lot of new competitors that are out there in branded are companies started by salespeople. When you take a pitch from them, they tell you about how cool their platform is and how many people they hope you can reach and all of that. They don't talk that much about the quality of their podcasts or point to their podcasts. I guess, for people to listen to them and determine quality because they're trying to sell branded podcasts in a reach world, and it's not really a reach medium. But salespeople have turned out to be, I guess, as is the case in other industries as well. Salespeople are important alongside content people and I probably have had too much emphasis on great content and not enough on just knocking on doors. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:04:18 I would think that it'd be very, very hard to constantly be bringing in new clients all the time, and to scale a business up and up and up, because each branded podcast is high touch point. It is so particular, there's so much involved. I don't think there's enough hours in the day to make this thing as big as you want to make it. Dave Beasing (Guest) 00:04:39 You're right, it is difficult to scale for that reason. Every project is very different. That's the nature of any creative art. If you're going to do a good job for somebody, it's going to be different for this brand than it is for that brand, because brands are different, goals are different, topics are obviously different, content is different. And then there is internally with every project, a very different set of clients with different expectations. Marshall Lewis, the head of content for Wandery, who, bless his heart, refers quite a bit of business to us. He has said to me, I don't know how you do it, and he's referring to the clients. And I don't mean to get in a bitch session. We love our clients, but it's an additional dimension to the creative process that can be very time consuming. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:05:29 I almost want to ask the question and break it down. What is a branded podcast? But why don't we talk a little bit about the evolution of them over the last, let's say, five years since you left radio, and this opportunity was there to get involved with branded podcasts. How have they evolved alongside your company? Dave Beasing (Guest) 00:05:47 I think they've changed in a few ways. The number of branded podcasts that are out there has certainly exploded. There are many more than there were when we started. I think we were a little ahead of the curve when we went into it that way. The content is generally better in branded podcasts. There are a lot of smaller branded podcasts that are kind of vanity projects, and those are not necessarily better. But the big brands doing big podcasts, those are better. Sometimes they're more mass appeal than they used to be, and sometimes they're more targeted than they used to be. A great example being for National Geographic, a project we work on with Benstown and McVeigh Media as well. They are targeting Emmy voters, so that's a very narrow, specific audience. They're trying to get Emmy nominations and Emmys, so sometimes it's out on the long tail and other times they're trying to go more mass appeal. Measurement has changed. I think there's an increasing realization that it is not a reach medium to do branded podcasts, not for the most part. So they're doing more brand lift studies. They realize that they're doing more brand building and they're kind of thinking of branded podcasts as being in the same category as their other content marketing efforts, whether it's video and blogs, events, things of that nature, where they realize that they are not trying as they are with their ad insertion efforts, to get somebody to place an order today and get 20% off by putting Matt Kendall in the upper right hand box. So that has helped a lot because brands are getting into it for the right reasons instead of the wrong reasons. And then I'd also say that the number of producers out there as the branded podcasts have exploded in number, a lot more people are doing them now. Some of the studios that do other podcasts for ad insertion have a wing or certainly will take the money to do branded podcasts. That still happens to some degree. That was mostly who we competed with originally, but now there are more companies that are branded podcast specialists. And as I was saying before, those companies sometimes get great results for their clients. I'm sure they tend to have, in many cases, more of a sales emphasis. You can see that their internal structure is more salespeople than content creators, and they get results for people and they do more business, some of them, than we do. But we're content people. We came from content and we do content. That's our primary emphasis. When I was in radio, I just loved writing for my radio station. I didn't get into radio because of a love of music, as some people do. I got into it because I like to write. I like to create things that are written, and sometimes that was actual content on a spoken word basis, morning show or newstalk or what have you. But sometimes it was also just marketing. It was creating the positioning that made that brand feel different from another brand. And that's who we are and that's what we do. Branded podcasts have changed in that there's a lot more people doing them. But I don't know, sometimes I'm not sure all those podcasts are created to differentiate the way we used to try to differentiate radio back in my day. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:09:28 Do you miss writing imaging? Because I write it once a year now, and I now spend two weeks writing one page of imaging and then I spend like all day with a producer to make sure that the sound is right. And it used to be five pages a week and I just love my one page now per year. Dave Beasing (Guest) 00:09:47 It's enough to keep you involved and happy. I'm kind of the same way. I still work with a few stations out there. It's just enough to kind of be a fun hobby, but it's not as consuming as it used to be. I do that's. My favorite part, though, is the imaging. And when imaging is done right, it became difficult in the PPM era to have imaging that was more than five words. But when you can get away with it, good imaging is content marketing. It's content in and of itself. So I do miss that sometimes. And I think writing radio imaging made me a more concise writer overall. To tell a story about how you two overcame a creative lull to come up with a song, one, during a recording studio, and tell that in radio form that you can get away with in Ppm requires a real economy of words to do that. And I think that has served me well. That pressure to be very concise has served me well as a writer overall. It's social media, too. God bless folks that I see are pouring their hearts out in five paragraphs on a Facebook post. Unless I am really close to that person, I'm not going to read it on social media. You've got to keep the text to a minimum if anybody's going to read it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:11:14 You've heard some other branded podcasts out there. What's the most glaring obvious error that they're making? Dave Beasing (Guest) 00:11:21 I think you can make a branded podcast too slick. I think there's authenticity that's needed, and the audience wants to hear something that is very genuine. Sometimes it's too raw and unedited and then sometimes it's too slick. Finding that happy medium where it's well edited but doesn't sound like it's edited, that's the trick. We refer to it as audio sculpting, the editing process that we go through because, you know, as who was it DA Vinci who said that what he does is he chips away at the rock, the stone to reveal the statue within? Or was it Michelangelo, one of those guys that's the way we look at the podcast is that we might record 3 hours to get a 20 minutes branded podcast and we're going to find those little human moments that nobody planned. We're going to find ways to explain it that are more colorful. If you're talking about nutrition labels on a product at a grocery store, you've got to find some really human ways to do that to make it interesting. And that doesn't happen from a lecture on nutrition labels. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:12:32 So you mentioned authenticity, which is really what you're looking for. And all I've been bombarded with so far this year is AI discussions. Whether it's the blogs, or voices, or now people, as it appears. And I am just not as flustered when it comes to anything AI, because I can- I don't know that AI is capable of authenticity. Dave Beasing (Guest) 00:12:56 I think it's going to get there. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:12:58 Does that just buy me 2023? Dave Beasing (Guest) 00:13:02 I think it's going to improve and evolve. There's going to be, as you know, a whole field. I mean, they're going to be whole college majors built around not just better writing, but about how to ask questions of AI in a better way to get better results. The AI engineering, and that isn't just for the people who do code. The AI engineering spreads to all of us. If you ask a question ten different ways, you're going to get ten different answers, as I understand it from my preliminary experimentation. So figuring out exactly how to ask those questions is going to be quite an art as well as a science, I think. But AI is here to stay. I'm with you, though, that I hope it doesn't replace, nor do I see it in the near future, replacing the human touch. I did do a blog the other day, and I bet you're hearing stories like this and have a few of your own. I did a blog for our website the other day that using Chat GPT probably reduced the writing time from an hour to 20 minutes because it gave me some great initial ideas and structure and that sort of a thing. And but I would have been embarrassed to post the Chat GPT as it first the original version. That just wouldn't have been right. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:14:25 I saw you and Jeff Fiddler from Signal Hill discussing research. What's some of the stuff that Jeff has really revealed to you over the last year or two and maybe even longer? And why is it that everybody is getting their podcast from YouTube? Dave Beasing (Guest) 00:14:40 Why? I'm not sure they are, but you better be on YouTube. There's no doubt about that. Jeff has shared many interesting things. I think the highlight for me was being selfish and self centered as I am about branded podcasts, that six in ten people, after they hear a branded podcast, say that it has caused them to have a more favorable impression of the brand. Six in ten. In some ways, I guess you could say, why wouldn't it be eight or nine and ten? But people are tough when they answer research questions like that. Imagine if you had asked. And of course, this happens all the time too, in research. Listen to this. 62nd or 32nd ad from a brand, and if it's a typical 60 or 32nd ad, especially if it has a strong CTA, how many people are going to say, wow, that gave me a more favorable impression of that brand? Even if it did, they're not going to admit it. I think that's the biggest finding that Jeff was able to share with me, and that was derived from many studies that he does. Brand lift studies that he does. And on the topic of research, I'm loving the weekly insights that Edison research is putting out as well. I think that one of the stories in podcasting that has gotten some play but probably deserves more, is that Edison podcast metrics are now going to be sold into ad agencies by none other than Nielsen. And this is, as I understand it, the first time that Nielsen, the gold standard in media research, has agreed to sell a product that isn't a Nielsen in house generated product. That's how strongly they apparently feel about the Edison podcast metrics. Larry Rosen is brilliant guy who those of us in radio have worked with through the years as well. He's really positioned at us in the podcast space very smartly. While many other researchers have been able to make that transition, he's come up with a way to do what I believe will be the definitive podcast ratings and Nielsen's jumping on it. Dervla Trainor 00:16:53 Transcription of the Sound Off Podcast is powered by the Podcast Super Friends, five podcast producers who get together to discuss podcasting. Sharpen your podcast and creation skills by following the show on the Sound Off Podcast's YouTube or Facebook page. Mary Anne Ivison (VO) 00:16:53 This Podcast supports Podcasting 2.0. If you like this show or getting value from it, hit the boost button now. If you don't have a boost button, you can get one now at newpodcastapps.com. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:17:26 We touched on YouTube, just briefly. How do you handle YouTube or a video strategy for your branded podcasts you work with? Dave Beasing (Guest) 00:17:33 I think video is important these days. I think screens are important. Maybe that's a better way to put it. Because if I'm going to buy a new A-l-e-x-a, I have to be careful. I'm going to have a screen on it. I think that especially younger generations want the option to look at something, even if it's a static image, they want the option to look at something. They've grown up with screens in their daily lives. We have two kids, and I hate to be- I hate it when people cite the observations they have of their own children and say, I have seen the future, and it's what my twelve year old does. And yet I'm about to do that. My twelve year old, she does everything with a screen handy, a screen nearby. I mean, she will walk to school, she'll take a bath with a screen propped on the side of the bathtub, her phone, she'll even- and I sound like a terrible parent, I guess, when I say this. You can judge if you like. She gets away with it a lot. She does her homework with a screen going, in the same way that I used to listen to music while doing my homework. And I don't think that she devotes any more attention to that screen and that YouTube video or whatever it is that she's supposedly watching while she's doing homework than the attention that I devoted to an album on a turntable or CD when I was doing my homework. But that generation is going to have screens on. So I think for podcasting, it's going to be important for us to at least have that static image up there as an option for some people to consume it that way. With the screen activated, there becomes a decision to make about how much resources to devote to the video. And some podcasts are going to find video very useful. The folks at Cast Media, most of their shows are video podcasts in addition to being audio podcasts. They set them up that way from the start and I think that they as a company did that very early on. They have video studios in their home office in Hollywood and they have some studios in the Valley too, here in LA. I think you can go to that extent or you might just do something that doesn't try very hard as far as the video is concerned. And I think you have to make a decision on whether you are going to try hard or whether you're not going to try hard. And you need to clearly be on one side of the fence or the other. If you put too much effort into a slideshow, there are those who will see that and say, wow, you're kind of trying to give me a video here, but my gosh, this is not much of a video. You're going to have to decide whether you're all in or not. Some sort of video, yes, but make it clear to those watching whether the video is meant as something that people should focus on or just a companion bit of graphics. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:20:34 So we could have done this on video. This is going to be on YouTube. It will be an image of you, there'll be some Headliner waves at the bottom and maybe somebody will be taking in the show this way. But we could have put this up on YouTube, but I'm not sure anybody would have found it very interesting to necessarily meet your dog or hear me ask a question multiple times because I screwed the question up. And, I mean, it would be a fairly clumsy experience and have nothing to do with the final audio portion, which this show is built for audio. I just don't know who would find our take one, take two, restart, or answer this a different way, kind of mumbo jumbo like I'm talking now, interesting. Dave Beasing (Guest) 00:21:13 Agreed. You have to essentially decide whether the video or the audio is going to be primary, and stick to that. Audio is so much more fun to edit than video. And as I mentioned before, we do a ton of editing, and sometimes doing branded podcasts, you have the client listening in the background during the recording session and they start to freak out because they think all of this is going into the final product. They think, oh my gosh, this person, this guest is talking too much about their childhood and their background and their this and their that. And yeah, you know what, we're going to do a 20-30 minute podcast or whatever it is, but there's a lot of stuff coming out. We may start a sentence in one place and finish it someplace else. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:22:00 You mentioned screens, video, the Gen Z's are a group who are visual, and so your artwork matters. Dave Beasing (Guest) 00:22:08 Yes, it really does. And that's probably someplace where podcast needs to do a better job. I think that we were just talking about research. There should be more effort put into things like that. When it comes to research, let's find out if people react better to this tile or that tile. I have a friend who works for Netflix and he knows because it's his job to know if they're posting a Mission Impossible movie on Netflix in this part of Eastern Europe, whether you should have a picture of Tom Cruise on the tile or a picture of a car wreck or whatever it is. They have researched that. Of course. They've got the data to know which gets more click throughs. It's a real science. And if we are going to market our podcasts effectively, we should have the graphics that will cause the listens. For sure. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:23:07 I just hired an art director. That's how serious this has gotten. Dave Beasing (Guest) 00:23:12 Yeah, good. Awesome. I'm glad you did. And I may need to borrow that art director at some point. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:23:19 I can't afford her, but I made the purchase anyway. Dave Beasing (Guest) 00:23:21 Good for you. That's smart. It's definitely needed. And for podcasts, like anything else, the graphics that are needed for podcast are different than any other kind of graphics. So in the same way that the marketing department at a brand shouldn't just order a couple of microphones and say, okay, now we're podcasters, I don't think that the graphics department should necessarily, at least without a lot of study and reflection and ramping up, suddenly decide that they are capable of producing great podcast tiles. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:23:54 How's the marketing different for a branded podcast against, let's say, my podcast, which is really a couple of audiograms, some social media, some Twitter, some LinkedIn, some Facebook, and just constant social media. And for a branded podcast, what's the approach? Dave Beasing (Guest) 00:24:09 It's similar, and it depends somewhat on the internal resources that the brand can call into play. We work with one major brand that has they won't even tell me how many people who receive their emails. They also have a huge open rate that they won't share with me on those emails. You can guess which client that is. They have such a passionate customer base that their internal marketing really works to spread the word about the podcast. That's a huge factor for brands. Now, if they're going after orthodontists to listen to the podcast, then there are some highly targeted things that they probably need to do for branded. Sometimes it depends on, to some degree on whether you're trying to build a longterm podcast franchise for a brand or whether you're just trying to get some information out there in audio form that probably won't develop a long term following. Let's say you're doing podcast about buying municipal bonds. You could find it very effective to offer great podcasts that are informative about that topic advertised through digital ads next to articles about municipal bonds and how to trade them and when to know the markets going up versus down and so forth. That makes sense, but are you really going to build a podcast franchise with that? You might, depending on your KPIs, your key performance indicators, get some listeners and make some sales. And that's great. If you're going for more of a long term project, the best place to advertise a podcast is on another podcast to state the obvious. So if you can come up with the budget to advertise on other podcasts, go for it. For sure. Feed drops are awesome and I'm a fan, at least I think I am. I'm eager to start using it of what Pod Role is looking at doing, where they've created this idea of having creators, producers sign up their podcasts to accept an additional post role of another show so that there is a sample of a show coming, the original post role plays. And then the hosts of the show say, hey, if you're still listening, here's a podcast we think you might like. That makes a lot of sense to me. I think that that's and they're going to be able to ask a decent CPM rate on that. I like the ability of one podcast to expose another podcast as the best way to get people to listen. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:26:58 Podcast Evolutions is coming up. It's going to be in Las Vegas. I think you made the cut. Dave Beasing (Guest) 00:27:05 It's amazing. There were times passed when I did not make the cut, and I understand that they are in the convention business, and it may be helping me make the cut that we are now big enough to write a check occasionally and support Podcast Movement. I'll just say that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:27:23 Are you going to be appearing on stage in any sessions? Dave Beasing (Guest) 00:27:26 Yes, we have a session on Friday at noon. I said, let's do a panel that is so good it'll close down the convention and that's what we're doing. We're the last session on Friday before you get in your Uber and go to the airport, I hope, although I would imagine there'll be some people who find a way to escape on Thursday night or early Friday. But for those that are still around, please come by. It'll be noon on Friday. We have Jonas Wuost from Bumper, we have the aforementioned Jeff Biddler from Signal Hill Insights. And I'm also excited to have a Brit among us. Aaron McIndo sprouty. I hope I pronounced that right. I've talked to her and called her Aaron many times. I got to find out how to pronounce her last name, aaron Mcindelle Sprouty. She's from Lower Street in London and she's a great branded podcast creator on that side of the pond, as they say. Where branded podcasts? We think they're exploding here. They're really exploding in Britain. In the UK, every brand has decided, after you get a website, you should probably do a podcast. So I'm interested to find out from her why it's exploding so much in the UK and in other parts of Europe as well, what their key performance indicators are, what brands are looking to achieve when they do a podcast with Lower Street. The name of the session is KPIs that CYA, as in Cover Your Ass, and it'll be fun to have everybody weigh in on that. I'm toying with the idea of maybe having a wheel of questions that clients ask about the goals of their branded podcast and just give it a spin and see which questions come up because there are so many. We'll have fun. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:29:16 Well, there's a lot of star power on that stage when it comes to branded podcasts, so I think this is a session that's going to be worth sticking around for. Dave Beasing (Guest) 00:29:23 Well, thank you, Matt. I appreciate that endorsement. Are you headed to Vegas? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:29:27 I will not be. I'm headed to Spain. Dave Beasing (Guest) 00:29:30 Oh, well, I'm jealous. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:29:32 I will be there for six weeks. Dave Beasing (Guest) 00:29:35 Good for you! And you'll be able to work from there? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:29:37 I will. Hopefully they have internet. Dave Beasing (Guest) 00:29:40 Yeah, I've heard they do. That's great. We can work from anywhere these days, obviously. And I'm jealous. When you ask me about changes that we've seen in the branded podcast space- tip of the hat to COVID. One of those things that COVID has provided us in the podcast world is the ability to work remotely. We've learned how to do it very, very well. People listening to this podcast no doubt think I'm in your living room kicking back with you here, and I am not, because we can have good microphones sent all over the world. We've sent them to everywhere from Uganda to a Syrian refugee camp, and we get our kits back, too. It's amazing. The shipping works on those both directions. We can do great quality audio remotely now. I built a studio when I started the company, thinking that I was going to be recording a lot of people in that studio. I have not, because the remote recording is something that COVID taught us to do. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:30:42 And that's the radio person in you that would not expect that microphone to come back. Dave Beasing (Guest) 00:30:49 That's right. Because if you sent me a really nice Shure MV7, why I'm going to hang on to that thing. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:30:56 I'm holding up a headphone adapter right now. And the general rule is never lend this out, ever. Dave Beasing (Guest) 00:31:03 You will not get it back. On that front, since we're geeking about equipment, the new Zoom- are they F1's? These lav mics that they've got that are self contained, so that your recorder- You know, most lavs are remote in that they transmit to a place where you collect the audio. These collect them right on your belt. If you click it on your belt, those are fantastic. And for touring different places during podcasts, or anytime you walk around, those have been fantastic. And then if you buy a little better lav mic to plug into it than the one that is standard issue, then you've really got something that's amazing. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:31:44 So all these years out of radio, it was 2017, as you mentioned off the top. I think you could probably turn on the radio and listen to it in a more objective way. What do you hear and what do you think radio needs to do to level itself out, to disrupt the disruption? Dave Beasing (Guest) 00:32:01 I say if you can't beat them, join them. Radio has to disrupt itself. It's the classic thing that Clayton Christensen, rest in peace, author, wrote about, that disruption is difficult to do to yourself. He tended to advocate putting the disruptor outside of the disruptee if it's within the same company or ownership. You've seen people like I heart do that to some degree. There are not that many radio people in the podcast division at Iheart, and they are structured perhaps to make the quarterly earnings reports the way they want them to look. But they have put broadcast in a different division of the company than podcast and other new media. I think that there was a golden opportunity a few years ago, and it may not be completely over, but there was a time when radio was still the only game in town, or much more so than today. And yet you could kind of see where this was headed when radio could have taken some of those big brands and made them something besides a radio station. I mean, if I'm in Seattle or, or Des Moines, maybe I wouldn't care about a radio station in Los Angeles, an alternative rock FM station in La. But what if CBS at the time had made the world famous K Rock truly world famous? Maybe it's not too late. I don't know. I think that you can build the content there with some creativity, and that's what radio must do. You can build the content to be not the typical radio content because people in Seattle or Des Moines do care about the artists in that format, the lifestyle, the trans, the fashion, the gossip, all of that stuff. And rather than just interview the artists when they come by and post that which has value and might be interesting in Des Moines, but let's get creative. Let's put those artists in the K Rock Collab house and start cranking out TikTok. Or let's do an online fashion runway event of what people are wearing at Coachella this year WFAN in New York. If you go to their website, you will see upper left hand corner, the WFAN logo, and it says underneath Sports Radio. And this is the New York Yankees flagship radio station franchise worth $6 billion with 8.2 million likes on Facebook. You're telling me that as the New York Yankees radio station, you couldn't make that website about something besides a radio station? There's so much you could do that would make a Bronx, somebody that grew up in the Bronx or grew up a Yankees fan anywhere, that now lives in Phoenix to make this their website, for podcasts, for app, for emails and news and so forth. And they're posting a lot of that stuff, but I think it's all in how you position it. I'm very interested in what Jeff Row is doing. Jeff is a brilliant guy, and he just recently became head of programming for KPCC FM here in Los Angeles, public Radio for Southern California. They went through a brand shift on the air to call themselves, other than the top of our legal ID, la IST. They had purchased a website a few years ago called LAist that was local pop culture and information and such, and they've already morphed that website into a great local news source. And so now the radio station refers to itself as LAist 89.3 on the air, and they're building something that is a brand that will facilitate putting that content out in so many different directions. I remember years ago, John Stewart in his Daily Show days, and somebody asked him about cable TV is going to face some tough times ahead. Are you worried? And I think his answer was something like, we just make the donuts. We don't drive the truck. And if we can stop thinking that, we drive trucks in radio and in all forms of media and create great content. That is the hub that is then distributed through all these different spokes, from podcast to broadcast to apps, newsletters, events, you name it. And that's what I sense they're doing with that brand shift, brand name shift on the air as well. At Southern California Public Radio, I think there's still an opportunity for commercial radio brands, more commercial radio brands to do that, and they're going to have to. They're just going to have to. It would have been easier ten years ago, but they still have to try to do it. And by the way, if you're not a big brand, or you can't make yourself somehow into a big brand that is capable of transcending an Am or an FM signal, then you're probably not a radio brand that's going to survive. If you're the third or fourth AC in a market, that's like being the 98th store at a mall that sits next to Nordstrom. It's Nordstrom at one end and Macy's or whatever at the other end, they're going to survive. They're changing the way they do business, too, but those second and third tier radio brands are not going to matter much at all in the future. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:37:37 Well said, Dave. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. Dave Beasing (Guest) 00:37:41 Matt, I always enjoy checking in with you. Tara Sands (VO) 00:37:43 The Sound Off podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski. Social Media by Courtney Krebsbach. Another great creation from the Sound Off Media Company. There's always more at soundoffpodcast.com.

It is fitting that this episode is being published on World Radio Day. Cathy Faulkner worked at KISW in Seattle from 1981 through to the early 2000's. She spent most of her time as the station's music director and on air. During that period, Cathy championed the local music scene and had a front row view to the ascension of Nirvana, Soundgarden, Alice in Chains and some of the Seattle bands that did not get grouped into the G-Word category like Queensryche, and Candlebox. (The G-Word is Grunge and Cathy explains in the show why she cringes when she hears it) In this episode, you will learn that it is all about timing. Especially in the case of Nirvana who released their Nevermind CD the first day that Cathy took the music director position. We also discussed some other rock radio groups who shaped the soundtrack of rock radio in the 90's like Kenny Wayne Shepherd, Tool and Brother Cane. KISW celebrated 50 years recently and you can check out this episode from their current morning personality BJ Shea here. At the beginning of the show we talked about Cathy's amazing wall of memorabilia. Here it is. If you were a music director at rock radio in the 90's - your office looked like this. (Bands may vary) I have a few of my own pieces still kicking about. Including a signed Alice in Chains piece which is my absolute favourite. I'm going to have to put a note on the back of the piece to remind my boys to have it appraised before leaving it out on the corner. Check out this gem from 1991 from Entertainment Tonight where they discuss the Seattle Scene. (Cathy appears briefly) So a few regret about this episode. After listening back I wish I had asked Cathy about the deaths of Kurt Cobian, Andrew Wood, and Chris Cornell, and how she processed them. I also failed to ask about Presidents of the United States of America... Foo Fighters... and all the many bands that passed through her studio. Hopefully there is a next time because this was a fun episode to make. ~Matt TRANSCRIPTION Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:00:01 The Sound Off Podcast. The podcast about broadcast with Matt Cundill. Starts now. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:10 This week, I caught up with Cathy Faulkner. You might have encountered her. She's done a little voice work. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:00:16 City of Seattle generated over 730,000 tons of garbage, or over 2000 tons per day. Less than one third of this was recycled. Open the MD 355 and placed the APS cassette into the front compartment. Life's short. Make it a little smoother with Java works. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:35 But back in the 90s, she was the music director of KISW in Seattle. KISW was at the epicenter of a wave of rock music that washed over the radio like a tsunami in 1992. I've always wondered what it was like to be inside that station when it was all happening. More than 30 years later, I'm about to find out. Kathy gives me a tour of her studio, which is covered with memorabilia. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:00:59 There's FILTER, there's Bush Lenny Kravitz is above it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:03 She also told me that each one of the pieces has a sticky note on the back reminding anyone who looks there to have it appraised before leaving it out on the street corner. Now, if you've listened to and loved rock radio in the 90s, you're going to want to listen to this whole episode. Here we go. Cathy Faulkner joins me from her home in the San Juan Islands. Geographically situated comfortably between Victoria BC and Seattle, Washington. You started radio at the age of 15? Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:01:30 I did. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:32 How's that possible? Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:01:34 Well, I guess I need to credit my high school and opportunity. I started as an intern at the age of 15 in my 9th grade English class. We were assigned a project to interview somebody in media, and I was a huge fan of Ki's W and the music that they played and many of the artists that they feature. So I called Steve Slaton and as a naive little 15 year old said, can I interview you for a school project? And that's how it all started. We had a great interview. He was more than cordial, and we continued communicating, and he asked if I would come in to answer phones for him at night. And that's how it all started. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:02:18 Tell me a little bit about Steve, because he started back in the 70s. He's a Seattle legend. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:02:23 Seattle Legend. Seattle native. Worked at various radio stations before KISW. But in around 1971, when Kiwisw became a rock format, slayton started shortly thereafter and is credited with breaking AC DC, Metallica, Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, the Scorpions, and as music director and evening disc jockey, he was your how do you say it? It's like the party looking for the place to happen. When you're hanging out in your living room at night and you want to hear what's cool, he had the stack of records to play for you. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:02:57 So what do you think? You're 15 and you're in the studio and you're answering phones and it's nighttime, which eventually turned out to be your playground. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:03:06 It did, yes. I followed in his footsteps and got to do my radio show during Slaton's hours. Yeah, it was cooler than shit. It was the coolest. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:03:20 What was it about the nighttime, though? Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:03:22 To me there's always been a vibe. Music always is more passionate at night. It hits you in ways that you don't expect. It's a great way to be social. It's a sense of community. Let out your aggressions of the day or whatever. It's a unique playground where you have a more one on one relationship with your audience, or at least back in the day. It's different now, but it also can be the same. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:03:47 And you broke a big radio rule because you need to go to a small market in order to get big market education. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:03:55 You are absolutely correct, my dear. In fact, when I expressed an interest to management that I wanted to be a disk jockey at Kiw, I said, well, no, you can't start here. You have to go elsewhere and come back. I said, well, there's a problem here. And I wasn't this articulate at 15, mind you, but I think my first air shift was at 17. So I said, there's this primacy recency perception issue and you will always see me as a 15 year old. So when I leave, I'll never be able to get back in the door ever, regardless of what I accomplish elsewhere. So I like it here. I'm born and raised in Seattle. I have no plans of going elsewhere, so I'll just hang out and one day you might need me. And I got a call at my house at about 02:00 in the morning. Somebody was sick and not able to come in and I guess the manager didn't want to do the shift, so called and asked if I would woke up. My parents asked for permission and they drove me to the radio station to do my first air shift. That 02:00 a.m to 06:00 a.m Saturday morning. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:05:03 Did you sleep the next day? Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:05:05 Doing my first air shift on Kiw, I probably didn't sleep for a week. I mean, in reality that was a dream come true. Now, have I listened to the air check? No. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:05:19 I think back to, you know, when you're inside the radio station and you want to do the shift and you are 17 and by today's standards we look back and go, wow, that that's kind of crazy. And I'm thinking to myself, that's a little bit crazy. But I don't think it's all that crazy because I was 18 when somebody called me up and said, we have nobody to do showm. Can you come down and do a few hours? And there I was on my local rock radio station with barely a year of broadcast experience, doing a show which the air check has also disappeared for that, surprisingly. Why do we look back at 17 and 18 and think that was really young but when you're 17 and 18 it was completely normal. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:06:01 I guess what I miss in my later years that I had then is age wasn't a factor. It was this blind ambition of something you were interested in and ready to do a deep dive. And when I coach or consult with people who are trying to get into voiceovers or radio or musicians that I've worked with over the years consulting them on different marketing strategies, one of the first things I say which makes me sound so analog and so old school, but it still is true. You have to be willing to put in the time. You have to be willing to do internships and fetch coffee and do the crap work because you need to be standing by for those opportunities to present themselves. You can't wait at home while you're gaming for somebody to text you and say gosh, do you have the time? So I think those opportunities can still be recreated. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:06:58 Today I've got a 23 year old upstairs who is looking for work and I suggested why don't you go and help out so and so with their political campaign. You got a Polly side degree. It's like I'm not being paid. I'm not going to put in the time for that. And then he resumes his video game. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:07:16 Mine is 18 and I will say as I sit on my hands and count to 50 with every issue that him and I converse over, he finds his passion, his pace and his path is very different than mine. But when something lights a fire enough, he can make the world move. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:07:41 When was it that you first got your hands on the music department? Music scheduling and getting involved with the radio station after the radio shift, working. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:07:51 With Steve as his assistant. He was music director at the time. So I interacted with the labels on a regular basis, just backing him up and ordering stuff or coordinating different promotions. Selector, I guess came into the station in the because we were one of the early clients for Selector. My job was to break it to see how far I could stretch the music scheduling system to see if I can get it to freeze up. And so I would get a bonus if I could break it and I got a few bonuses so that was fun. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:08:24 How did you break it? Wasn't it Dos? Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:08:27 It was oh, it was basic, total Dos, green glowing screen. I'm big on shortcuts and I'm big on finding different ways to merge data and I continually tried to push it farther than it was designed to do. So I broke it a few times. But it was great. It helped, I believe it helped the software be better because we sent those off to the company and they, they figured it out. As far as music in charge of actual music decisions, I would say that was in the late 80s when I took over the metal show at KISW. So that was when I started working with some of the local hard rock heavy metal bands, bands that we already played, but I could go deeper and further and started doing interviews, appearing at concerts, working with, getting local hard rock acts to open for national acts when they were coming through town. That was when that all started. And then in 91, which somebody pointed out to me, I didn't realize it till about a year or two ago on the day Nevermind was released, was when I became music director at KISW. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:09:36 Yeah, listen, I mean, metal and first of all, we were inundated with hair metal and Bon Jovi and Deaf Leopard and Guns and Roses. And then by extension, we've got all these other bands that are playing harder stuff. That's the heavy metal. But this was a local show you were doing, right? Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:09:52 It was a local show. So we were playing depth. Queens. Rike. That was around the time of mine crime for me. Pantera, Motorhead and Anthrax, Metal Church from the Seattle area. Forced entry and then getting into more of the thrash metal going deep on Metallica. And it was a lot of fun. And I'm amazed I don't have tinnitus to this day. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:10:17 Yeah, actually, I'm looking at you using the Sony headphones, the ones that I had to ditch because I do have Tinnitus. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:10:24 Yeah, because it cups so much. Yeah. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:10:26 And they're sort of like at the higher pitch as well. So the ringing in the ears goes on long after the podcast ends. So congratulations for avoiding that. Because I can tell you, I don't. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:10:35 Know how I pushed it to the limit. There's still time, though. There's definitely still time. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:10:41 Well, lucky you. And then what about a band like Alice and Chains? So I look back at 1990, there's Man in the Box, but that feels metal. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:10:50 Oh, and it was. It started at college radio and Metal radio is where Alice started when they signed with Columbia. And susan silver, who managed alison chains. Manages alison chains? She said that I was the first to play Alice. The song was we die young. And I think, if I'm not mistaken, I played it off a demo cassette before I got the EP from Columbia. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:11:26 Two minutes and 20 seconds of Pure Power. Pure Power, that's one of my favorites. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:11:34 Yeah, that's a great one. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:11:35 But it was labeled metal and it was in our metal pile before it landed in the grunge pile. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:11:39 And even if you think of Man in the Box, which was the first single that was released to rock radio, even that we played that in regular rotation for months before many other stations picked it up because it was harder than the average bear or the sound itself was more full and thicker. That didn't have that. I don't know, it sounds so mainstream now. But I remember having so many phone calls with people that were, for lack of a better term, afraid to play it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:12:09 Oh, I worked for all of them. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:12:12 Is it okay to play? I'm like, yeah, give yourself permission, man. Go for it. Yeah. Maybe it's because of my metal roots. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:12:20 But the song is like twelve years old, and it's like, I think we should be playing that during the daytime now. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:12:27 Right? I mean, I was so spoiled. I know that many. And traveling more as I got older, 17, I didn't travel much. As I traveled more, I realized how different markets are and how blessed I was to be able to start and finish my radio career at KISW, because it's a harder than average area of the country musically, and it's a harder than average radio station. So playing Alice in Chain's Man in the Box during the daytime wasn't a big thing. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:13:01 Why did this happen in Seattle? Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:13:04 An amalgam of a lot of things. One of the things that's been talked about how culture goes in cycles so 90s is going through a renaissance, and there's a lot of interviews and reflections that are looking back on the think. One of the factors is the very radio station that I worked for that growing up with Slayton and all of the other personalities that played Kiss, round the Clock, judas Priest, Round the Clock, Metallica, Zeppelin, the depth at which that station went in, playing Zeppelin on and on and on. The icons that came out of Seattle were my age. They grew up with that stuff. And then you take the punk influence of KCMU or some of the college stations in the area, and just the irreverence of passion for music. It all blended together and created the sound that Seattle is known for. It just all mushed all together. Then you had the brain, and that kept us inside, practicing more, hanging out with our musician friends. So it was an amalgam of so many different pieces. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:14:18 I know somebody might be listening and saying, oh, that staying inside thing is not a thing. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:14:22 Oh, horseshit. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:14:25 I like to point to Winnipeg. Winnipeg, where it's freezing cold, but inside you got Bachmann, Turner Overdrive and Neil Young and the Guess Who who all played inside. So being inside, it's definitely a thing. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:14:40 Oh, absolutely. And the thing that I loved about I was trained by some of the best, the absolute best in the business, like Steve Slaton and Gary Crow, who had this just insane, insane sense of humor. John Langen just absolutely crazy creative sense of humor, and the programming genius of Beau Phillips, all of them inspired us to take a different, a fresh look at things, or look at things in a different way. And fun facts and crazy statistics are some of the things that came out of that time. And talking about the weather of the Northwest per capita of that day, number one, in serial killers, number one in reading books, number one in sales of convertible cars and sunglasses. So when the weather's crap, we go in one direction, and when the weather is great, we get in our convertible and we go in another direction. It's. So seattle. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:15:36 And how come Nirvana was the one that, on your first day on the job as music director that bled out across America and confused CHR programmers and really in one song, changed the sound of rock radio? And for those who don't know, it was all of a sudden, here's Nirvana and the Def Leppard and Bon Jovi and even the Guns and Roses at the time was sort of being challenged by this new sound. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:16:02 Correct. I believe that the road was paved by many that came before Nirvana and Nirvana was part of that resurgence in the late 80's. The actual answer to the question, why? I think everybody is trying to find that Holy Grail answer. It's the lottery ticket. You can't plan it, but yet it can happen. And it aligned at a perfect time when people, especially young kids, teens, early adults, were looking for something else because they were tired of the fifth album from such and such a band or media had gotten to a point where Saturation was starting to happen faster than it did in a non computer age. And it's an amazing record, but I think credit to the Human and the Melvins and Mother Love Bone and Soundgarden and early releases of Nirvana and constant touring paved away and created a swell Nirvana. And then you add some of the things that were happening in La. At the time. I would have to credit Jane's Addiction that was breaking open. Soundgarden was, I think, the first Seattle band to get a major label record. But it was pretty monumentally magical what Nirvana accomplished in that three and a half months from September to January when they tipped Michael Jackson out of the top spot on the charts. I think that was the time frame. I know it was January, but I don't remember the date. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:17:51 Yeah, I remember going home for Christmas 91 and I gave my cousin a copy of the Nirvana album and he's like, what's this? And he was going to school in Middlebury in Vermont, and I said, Take that back to Vermont with you. You'll be popular. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:18:05 We are so used to instant access in this conversation. You turn me onto a band that I hadn't heard of or a song I can Google it and play it in like ten minutes and be exposed to it. But watching that one to three year, four year period of time, watching Seattle travel around the country and watching it take off and even the joke from the singles movie when it was a Matt Dylan, right from the band, he said, we're big in Belgium. The big the big joke was they were big in Belgium. They couldn't do shit locally, but they were big in Belgium. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:18:41 Talking here with Cliff Poncia. Cliff, any comments on the Seattle Sound and Citizen Dick's place in it? Well, I don't like to reduce us just as being part of the Seattle sound. I like to think of us expanding more. Like, we're huge in Europe right now. I mean, we've got records. A big record just broke in Belgium. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:19:02 And these bands in the early 90s were touring in Europe and being well received. It's almost like I'm america is a little bit late on the whole scene. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:19:14 America has actually been late to its own music cycles on a couple of occasions. You just mentioned that one. Then I think back to 1981. It really took MTV to really get the keyboards happening with Soft Cell and Duran Duran, Human League and to get that stuff going. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:19:34 Maybe because we don't have mass transit. That like lack of mass transit sounds. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:19:47 And a band like Soundgarden in 1988. I was playing it on college radio at the time and I had it in the more hard rock and possibly the the metal side of things. But it's grunge. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:19:59 Yeah, but grunge has so much oh, God, I said the G word. It has so much hard rock influence. If you talked to Kim Thale, Sabbath was a huge influence for him. So, yeah, there's there's huge roots. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:20:15 What's wrong with the G word? Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:20:17 Well, I love Megan Jasper from Sub Pop when the New York Times interviewed her and wanted kind of the vernacular that went with the music scene and she made it all up. And I know that we need a word to describe the scene and I know the music is grungy, but being from Seattle, I try not to use the word. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:20:39 So I can totally understand that because when we say grunge, immediately people think alison Chains, Pearl Jam Soundgarden, Nirvana. But there are these other bands from Seattle, too, who don't get that G word. Queensryche. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:20:53 Right. Well, they're so part of it. So then you don't hear about Screaming Trees and then you don't hear about Satchel and then you don't hear about Brad. And then you don't hear about Green Apple Quickstep. And then you don't hear about Sweetwater and then you don't hear about Goodness or Karaokery or Hammerbox or the Gets or I mean, Slater Kenny, Brandy, Carlisle. I mean, the whole breadth and depth of our music scene. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:21:17 Thank you for mentioning Brad. I will need to go and jog my memory with that because somebody took me to the concert. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:21:24 Oh, Brad and Satchel. Sean Smith. My vocal angel. Their music always would ground me when I was having a bad day. I would put on Brad or Satchel or some solo Sean Smith and the day would look completely different. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:21:39 So what about a band that had had a hit before Nirvana? Like Queensryche. A little bit more on the progressive side. And obviously a band I know that you're very close to and and you've worked with and I think you had a national radio show with them. Were you doing an album launch? Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:21:56 I think, with them I did three. We did a world premiere of Promised Land out of Bad Animal Studios made that studio rest in peace. They just tore down the building. And the listening party was at the Museum of Flight, which was amazing because Krista Garma was a new pilot at the time. So, anyway, we did that, did a concert special and then they did the album Here in the Now Frontier. We did a live thing at Sakura, New Mexico, at the Very Large Array. That was crazy. In regards to Grunge or the Seattle music scene. Unfortunately. Queensryche, I think got overlooked. Their biggest album, Empire, was 1991. But as more formula rock was coming out and the new music scene was taking over, queen Strike didn't get into the sentence in many instances. They also were held prisoner by the pop music scene where the clubs in Seattle didn't play original music. Their first show was RKI's W, rising Star show in the Paramount. They opened up for Zebra in 1983. That was their first show and then had to find different ways to do concerts because the clubs were all the pre recorded, non original music. Seattle music scene changed that because they worked together and rented VFW halls and student union buildings and put on their own shows if the clubs weren't going to give them the time of day. So created the demand and then the clubs turned around and the whole scene changed. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:23:43 Queensryche also had some pretty good back catalog and some other songs that would get played on radio not only in Seattle, but across America. And Jet City Woman did quite well. Another rainy night without you and then here in the now frontier I enjoyed it as a record, but to your point, I think it was sort of lost in and amongst all the other stuff that was being thrust down that 19 94 95 era, which was strange. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:24:11 Well, and I think it goes to kind of the trappings of trends, fads, labels, genres. It's either all or nothing. There was a point I came across an interview that I did with Candlebox shortly after they released their first record in 94 95. And they had trouble getting a record deal because they were from Seattle, because Seattle had saturated so much. And so every label had to have their Seattle band. So nirvana. We were talking Nirvana 91. So by 94, I don't think there's any reference to Seattle on their debut record other than the lyrics and the context. But they were not marketed as a Seattle band and they get left out of the shuffle because of that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:25:00 I kind of felt that the record company was telling me to add this hairband. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:25:06 Candlebox a hairband? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:25:08 Yeah. I thought that was very strange because they didn't know what to do with it because they weren't going to call it grunge. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:25:13 You can't yeah. By that time, it had saturated so much. The Fashion Week in New York had $400 versions of Eddie Vetter's thrift shop jacket that he wore, and people were just like, I'm up to here with, okay, enough of Seattle. So how to get under the radar and get through all of that? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:25:33 I mean, are you rolling your eyes like the Eddie Vetter jacket and that stuff? I mean, it's surreal. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:25:38 Well, I think the surreal thing from being on the sidelines in the epicenter of where it was happening, we knew in 88 there was something happening, and we knew it was going to be big. The rest of the country caught on in 90 91, and by 90 94, Seattle was a four letter word. So we by 90 94 or I can just speak about me personally. I was just holding on for the ride. I mean, by that time, everything was happening so fast. The second album from Pearl Jam, Broke Records when it came out, sold a million copies in one week, which at the time was absolutely unheard of. Eddie was on the cover of Time magazine. It's just like it was so big that there was no bringing it back. We were surfing at that point. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:26:31 The records came fast and furious. What sort of national attention did your station or Seattle or you get being at the epicenter of it all at the beginning? Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:26:41 Or are we still talking at 94. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:26:44 Right in the middle of the tsunami? Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:26:48 We were in an interesting position. KISW was always known for breaking new artists and known for supporting the local scene. And certainly I'm not going to negate the other players. There was an alternative station in the market at the time, the End KXRX, which was kind of an offshoot from KISW and some of our old staff, they would play local artists and then the college radio station KCMU, which is now KEXP. All of us supported the local scene. So for Ki ASW, and for me personally, labels were looking for us to if a local artist was releasing a major label release, they were counting on us to play it. Now we had to play it to help build the audience to get them the deal in the first place. So there were many situations during the tsunami where we had played a single or a song for upwards of a year before the label released it as a single, then needed our support in order to get the rest of the country to pay attention. Temple of the Dog was a perfect example where it was released in 91. But it wasn't until Ten became multiplatinum and Soundgarden had released, I believe, Bad Motor Finger, then an M rereleased Temple of the Dog because there was now an audience paying attention and it gave Andrew Wood the focus. The lead singer of Mother Loved Bone that we lost tragically gave him and Mother Loved One the attention that they deserved in this tribute project, Temple of the Dog, we had already played Temple of the Dog for a year and a half and it was being treated like this brand new thing. So we would play it, but we would play it as many times as we wanted to play it because we couldn't brow beat the local audience. Our job was to serve the local audience, but we were a huge factor. Everybody was paying attention on what we were playing. And because it was a highly competitive radio market, it wasn't just Seattle bands. At a certain point, I was one of the early supporters of Tool in getting Tool off the ground. The bands from across the border. We would play in Seattle when other places in the United States wouldn't even be paying attention. It was an interesting balancing act from a business standpoint, but ultimately, it was super serving the artists and the audience and the vibe that KISW was known for. Focusing on our market, that's who we were there for. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:29:15 And that's what I did. I would take the Billboard magazine or the RnR. I would flip to the page and look and see, oh, what's KISW playing this week? And then I would go through my stack of records and say, well, they played this 30 times. Let's find out why they're playing this 30 times. I would listen to it. They might be on to something. We would put it on the air in Edmonton or Montreal or wherever I was working at the time, if I was allowed to, and I could convince the program director, and Tool is a great example of that, because I remember having the conversation with my program director saying, Tool, Sober, what's this? And I couldn't figure out where it fit. It wasn't grunge. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:29:55 It was an illegal. Its own. We always talked about in the early days of radio, we talked about the faceless bands and Rush and Pink Floyd come to mind as classic examples. Tool is also in that category that in the early days, because we were seeing them in smaller places, we had them headline an outdoor show. For us, it was little men on stage making big, big sound. But at a certain point, seeing Tool live in concert, it's bigger than that. They've entered that faceless genre of, you just remember Tool, and you don't see Little Men on stage playing instruments. It's just this huge experience. And so I started playing them off the Opiate album at Metal Radio. And then when Underto came out and Sober was a single, I think they released Prison Sex as a single. Before that, I had worked with Zoo Records because they were about to run out of marketing money, and nobody could convince them to invest more. And so the. Label reps that I was working with and the success that we were having, you guys have to really, seriously reconsider this. And at a certain point, they put more marketing muscle behind it and that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:31:12 Record really sort of lay the groundwork. It would be probably six months, maybe close to a year that maybe a station like WAAAF in Boston would be running it. And then I think it was 95 when Enema came out and everybody was ready for it at the same time. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:31:31 Sober was a single for almost two years. So imagine being the first station to play it. And how long do you keep that going without absolutely burning out your audience? We could do it easily because KISW was known internationally for going deep on records while we were playing the single. And maybe the spends weren't hitting the 30s like other radio stations were. We were playing four other tracks. It's like, let's just play the whole damn thing. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:31:59 Here's some other bands that I have drawn inspiration from. Thank you. To the songs that you added. The music of Kenny Wayne Shepherd. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:32:08 Oh, my God. I had the most amazing conversation with Kenny Wayne Shepherd when he came through town this last time. And his dad, since I have the same name, I would always call Ken Shepherd Daddy Wayne Shepherd. So it was Kenny Wayne Shepherd and Daddy Wayne Shepherd. They told me a story that I had never heard. They were stunned that we at Ki Double U started playing Kenny's debut album, which I think was 96, if I'm not mistaken, because they said, the land of grunge has no place for the southern root rock of Kenny Wayne Shepherd. And it helped break them open to other stations that otherwise they may not have been given the time of day, you still go back to the roots of rock. And Seattle had huge success with Stevie Ray Vaughan and Leonard Skinnard and other, for lack of a better term, please don't hate me for saying the meat and potatoes of rock. And there was no question his youth, his talent and the edge on that record, it didn't stand out. It fit right in with Sound Garden and Pearl Jam and Heart and Led Zeppelin and Sabbath. It fit right in with the little music salad we made every day. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:33:34 And the meat and potatoes, which actually goes into the salad, was banned to at the time. I mean, the way we were we'd been talking about KISW. People are going to think that it's been like wall to wall grunge, but no, of course not. You've got it. You threw in a little bit of Kenny Wayne Shepherd and then the meat and potatoes rock. I think of at the time, cry of Love from 1993, I think of Brother Cain. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:34:01 We've had huge success with Brother Cain, and what was so great is they ended up coming to Seattle and they recorded their Seeds album I believe, in London Bridge Studios, the Land of Pearl Jam singles, temple of the Dog, and Alison Chains Motherland. Yeah, they fit right in. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:34:17 And as well, you're not far from Canada. So a band like the Tea Party also had a home with you? Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:34:23 Oh, huge home. And bless their heart to me, their family, absolute family. I was invited by their label to see them at, I think it was the Commodore Ballroom in Vancouver, and they did one of their legendary four hour shows where Jeff Martin would pull out the bow and do his, you know, Zeppelin rendition on his guitar. And I know it's unfair to generalize his vocal quality and the similarities to Jim Morrison. And even with the power trio of Rush, there was something magical about the Tea Party in the musicianship that those three men could create on stage. We were a huge market for Rush. We were a huge market for many of the artists from across the border. And the Tea Party was one of our rising stars and could sell out the Paramount without even blinking. So it was a joy to work with them. And I'm very grateful that we're still friends to this day. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:35:20 More with Cathy in just a second, including that whole Metallica napster thing. And what was it like to work with Steve Young as her PD? Long time listeners of this show have heard stories about Steve Young and other episodes from his time at places like City FM in Winnipeg, CJ in Calgary, and Wnewfm in New York. Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:35:40 Transcription of the Sound Off podcast is powered by the Podcast Super Friends Live. Podcast producers who get together to discuss podcasting, sharpen your podcast and creation skills by following the show on the Sound Off Podcast, YouTube or Facebook page. This podcast supports podcasting 2.0. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:36:02 If you like this show or getting value from it, hit the boost button now. If you don't have a boost button. Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:36:08 You can get one now at new podcastapps.com. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:36:11 What was it like working with Steve Young? Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:36:14 Dynamic in every way possible. His arrival to KISW, which was as everything was blowing wide open, I didn't know much about his broadcasting past. I was adjusting to a lot of change from us losing a lot of our staff in the late 80s when KXRX became a radio station, and the history of Kiw and the people that I had first exposure to radio with. So he was the new guy that was hired, but he was hired with the blessing, hired by Bo Phillips, who was the brainchild of the legend that is KISW. So if it had Bo's seal of approval, I figured, let's give Steve let's not be Northwest cold to everybody steve, when he walks in the door as a manager and working with him as a I was music director at the time, or he promoted me to music director. So he was program director and I was music director. It was an honor to work side by side with him. He taught me strategy, programming strategy, local competing radio market strategy, how to align with other radio stations. Because Alternative was being treated more like the top 40 of rock. AOR was being kind of left in the dust as far as access to artists. So we worked with AAF and other active rock stations and created our own format. We called it Active Rock and we worked together as an alliance to say we broke a lot of these artists. And you can't count out the power of an AOR radio station, which is the age old war between Hume based listening and time spent listening. And they're just they're both necessary for the success of music and for a good listening experience. But at that time, they were treated as nemesis, competing where one would win over another. So he taught me so much. I miss him very much and treasure the years that we were able to work together. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:38:27 What was the music meeting like every week? How did it start? How did you arrive to the records that you would bring into the meeting? Would you play them? How would you come to a consensus over where the song goes on the radio, if at all? Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:38:41 Wow, you're triggering 30 year old memories. So let me see if I can coalesce it into a succinct answer for you. We had a few people in the music meeting. I would do a music call day where the labels would come either in person or by phone because of the stature of KISW. When Steve Young was program director, I felt bad for the locals, but I would hear from the national reps more than I would hear, not more than I would hear from the locals. But the nationals were really spending a lot of time trying to convince us to play stuff. So after doing that on a Thursday, Monday was our music meeting because I think Tuesday is when the reports go out to the trades for publishing. So the music meeting would probably last about an hour. I would narrow down to maybe five choices. We didn't add a lot of records. Our current playlist, like our global playlist of all the different categories, was vast. But the currents or the new songs that we focused on was a very short list. There was hot, medium and light rotations, and the whole list would fit on about three quarters of a page. So we would maybe add one record a week, if we were lucky. And we would pack it for those who know music software. We would pack it depth songs of a new artist to cultivate the new single. So it wasn't like, here's one single and here's another single and do it linearly, one after another. We would always have a current spot that had multiple new songs. Then I would talk about the pressure politics from labels and Steve Young's poker Face is the one thing that I would always remember, that we do things because they work for us and they work for the band. And if it doesn't do that, then we're not going to move. We'll just wait. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:40:36 I'm going to guess and say that the Pressure Politics was a flyaway to go and see the band. It might be additional promotion. What would entail some of that? Pressure politics. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:40:49 Yeah, you're right on the money on that. And also the pressure politics that had nothing to do with our radio station. And that's that it was a priority for the label, whether it was a Seattle artist or a non Seattle artist. So I would say pressure politics, that's the first that I think of. First something that's someone else's agenda and not ours. But it's a balancing act because if you do support something early enough, they're going to highlight your market or they'll do more promotional once in a lifetime experiences between the artist and the audience. And that was always very important to me. But I wasn't going to sell out the radio station or the audience in order to do that meeting in the middle, sure, we could definitely do that. Steve taught me a lot about the patience of waiting until it's right. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:41:39 I had a moment when I was playing golf with Damon Johnson from Brother Cain and two weeks before the band had been dropped from their label, yet the song is still doing really well on our radio station and we're in heavy. We've got the band in town, they're going to play our Halloween party and the label is dropping it. And I go, what's that about? And it's to what you said. The goals of a record label have nothing to do with the goals of the radio station. And that's the goal alignment. And I know a lot of people who listen to radio over the decades have thought, oh, well, it's a one to one kind of relationship. And I'm like, no, it's not. They want to sell records, we want to entertain listeners, and those two things don't meet in the middle. And I think it may have been Steve who told a few of the people that I worked with that's A turntable hit. And a Turntable hit is a song that does really, really well on the radio, but they don't sell any records. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:42:34 And you need to pair it with a live experience where those artists, many times the audience won't pull the cash out of their wallet and actually physically buy the music until they see them live. And Brother Kane fell into that category for us because their sales would absolutely explode after they played locally. They can mix in and get lost in the shuffle on the air like, it's a great song, but is it worth buying the whole record and seeing them live? There's no question the answer to that is yes. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:43:06 When Kissw did not perform well in the ratings. Why not? By the way? It's always been a ratings leader, but when it sort of wobbled a bit, why? Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:43:17 I think there's a multitude of variables. I think every radio station goes through growing pains. I think the best answer that I can give you is there is nothing that is static. So if you are going to experiment in new areas, the audience may like the direction you're going or may not like the direction that it's going. As Kiw got older, and I think management had the hard question, they had to answer, does the age automatically mean heritage? Or does the legacy of Kiw evolve with the generations? And I think under Dave Richards and now Ryan Castle's leadership, kiw has proven that you can be a heritage radio station without playing 50 year old songs 24 hours a day. You can evolve with your audience and know that you're going to lose some and some young ones are going to come in and you're going to stand the test of time. But there's definitely going to be time in there where you're experimenting with how heritage you go or how cutting edge you go, that the audience is going to go, you know what? I need a break. Or society or the culture is going to evolve. That's going to change people's interests where they're just going to take a break. And that could happen too. The adage of, I don't know where the ratings are now, but NPR definitely changed the ballgame at a certain point where people were listening to it all day instead of listening to music. Or as technology, people learned how to get things on demand more. So all those different phases, even the seasons, we would have ratings changes. Top 40 or pop radio stations would do better in the summer, so we had to have better promotions. So we bought a hydroplane. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:45:10 So as we get to the end of the 90s, along comes Napster. And then this inevitable I guess it was music debate came up and at the center of it was Metallica with the song I Disappear, which went out over Napster, which went on a radio station, was started to be played. And you interviewed the band a couple of times. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:45:29 It's so funny. Just as an aside, I found a box of cassettes and I've been putting some in every day to listen to, to see what's there. And the one that I found just a few weeks ago was my interview with Lars talking about tipster. So it's so fresh in my head. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:45:48 Well, what do you say? Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:45:49 The song wasn't finished. What started the whole thing is the concept of just because you have it, doesn't mean it's your decision to share it. It should be the band's decision to share it. And that's what started the whole mess. And then it evolved into, how could Metallica censor me and not allow me access to this song. Well, it's their freaking song, for God's sake. And if it isn't the version that they wanted released, I don't know why we're having this conversation. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:46:26 So I had a similar conversation with Art Alexakis from Everclear. I suggested it might be a good thing for that to happen. And he called me an idiot and said that was the dumbest thing he's ever heard. And I thought, well, it took a while, but then, yeah, he's right. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:46:43 Yeah, he's totally right. And I know that music was used as a testing ground for technology. And in order for people to make technology part of their day to day lives, it had to be free. But I think in that journey that many people forget, because I live in the Generation X where I lived in analog and now I live in digital, that there is a price for art. There is a price. Metallica doesn't just whip these songs out in 30 seconds and just go, here, here's another one, or Here, here's another one. Artists should be compensated for their art. And when that was used as a vehicle to learn technology, we've forgotten the value of the content. And we're currently, I believe, in the information wars of who owns the content. That's why I had to choose between upgrading Paramount Plus to watch the Grammys or wait a day and watch it on my regular streaming service. I don't have TV anymore, so I was surprised that a access type broadcast like the Grammys would not be available on a standard streaming service. I had to pay extra for the privilege to watch the Grammys. I thought that was very interesting this year. That was my crazy observation. So I held out 24 hours and stayed off social media, so I didn't get the real time updates. But I think we need to remember that the art is their property, and I think the artist should have a say in how their material is circulated. Being first isn't necessarily the most important play here. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:48:28 One of the things you just turned me on to was that the music was a testing ground for the tech sector to exchange information and these commodities, necessarily, yeah, a new vehicle to experience. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:48:40 Music, and I believe Bill Gates refers to it quite frequently. And then there's a book called Sing the Body Electric that talks about the early days of Microsoft. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:48:49 And it took a long time, though, but that began to affect radio. But it was in a more slow and strange kind of way. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:48:57 Well, and I know that being 20 minutes from the Microsoft campus, we, as terrestrial radio at Kiw, partnered with them on I hosted many MSN broadcasts. We utilized it as a tool to further the one on one relationship between the audience and the artist. It was a great promotional pair to playing music on the air. And I think Kiw still does a masterful job at it through their social media and their behind the scenes stuff or podcasts or the ability that if you're not hearing it live, you have an opportunity to not miss out. Yeah. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:49:34 I'm very disappointed though, because I can't listen to the radio station because Odyssey only they cut it off at the border. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:49:41 I know, we didn't use to cut it off at the border. I'm so sorry. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:49:47 Maybe I could get it if I could get the Odyssey app. But I can't get the Odyssey app because it's not available in Canada. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:49:55 Even if you have the app because it doesn't work on my phone when I'm in Canada. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:49:59 Yeah, I've tried to get to David Field about this and explain if you have podcasts and you want to promote them on the Odyssey app, we should be able to get them around the world. But he hasn't returned my call yet on that. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:50:11 I'm so sorry. It's not a decision I would have made. I believe that the Internet is supposed to it would be nice if it didn't have Borders. Yeah. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:50:22 I'm not a Geo block guy. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:50:24 Yeah, I'm not either. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:50:26 How did you find yourself out of radio? Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:50:28 I chose to leave, I guess. Kind of like kiss. I retired and then I went back into radio. I worked for a couple of other radio stations. Two things. One, I had been developing a voiceover career. Started in the mid ninety s to supplement the radio income, which is not always as healthy as it could be, but it got to a point where I had to choose one or the other. And around the same time, my mother was in the mid to late stages of Alzheimer's. So doing voiceovers and working a few hours a day so I could spend the rest of my time with her. Fortunately, the door was open and I got to visit Kiwis and be on air every few years. Filling in for people. Most recently was right before the Pandemic when I covered for Taron, who works at night. She was on maternity leave, so I got to be on the air for four months, which was the board's changed a lot in 30 years, but I didn't make too many mistakes with that board. It was crazy. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:51:23 Do you listen to radio today outside of NPR? Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:51:26 I do, actually. I live in the San Juan Islands, so I'm between Seattle and Canada. So I listen to a lot of Canadian radio. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:51:35 Well, you can go ahead and mention which stations. I'm sure people would be stoked to hear that. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:51:40 Well, there's the queue. I always have the queue on when I'm outside doing yard work. I listen to a lot of different radio, but doing voiceovers for a large chunk of the day and all of the different demands on our listening, I try and give my ears a break. I do probably lean on my Apple Music account and my CD player more than anything else because I still get sent a lot of. There's three bands locally that sent me new stuff that they're working on. And so I put it on and I just listen to it over and over and over and over and over again until it becomes part of me. And then I give them a critique or give them some feedback and we make some plans. So I don't listen to as much radio as I would like. And you may have this curse when you listen to radio, your programming brain kicks in. So there's a point where it does kind of feel like work. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:52:36 Oh, nobody wants to be sitting beside me when the radio is playing. It's a live air check every time. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:52:43 My husband's so used to it now that after a big break he goes, how is that? And I go, well, do you really want to know? No. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:52:49 So tell me about the voiceover business. What do you specialize in? What do you find yourself doing the most of and how much do you love it? Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:52:57 I love it. I love it a lot. The majority of my voiceover work is in Elearning training or different information narration that you need the content on the web and you got to have a narration to it. The other area that I focus on is IVR or app based or phone based voiceovers, voice activated directory systems or explainer videos. On here is this product. Do you want to buy it? So stuff I like is the Elearning stuff the most because each day I get to learn new things and get paid to read it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:53:34 You get to read it slowly too, and at a slower pace. I don't mean to say it's the easier read, but between that and the IVR, it's easier than the other stuff. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:53:45 Yeah, the IVR. When I first got into IVR, I had a huge account where I would get a file of I was just reading names. It was like names and addresses and they all had to sound the same. So I would spend four or 5 hours saying Joe's Garage, Bob's Garage, Betty's Garage and it had to have the same inflection and the same tone and a lot of names. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:54:11 We started off with Joe's Garage and I thought we were going to bust into Frank Sapa. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:54:16 I would need that to recover. But I love it. It's a lot of fun. And with technology I can work out of my house and live in a remote area, so I have absolutely no complaints. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:54:25 So that same conversation that we had about Metallica and being the artist and what happens to the work, you're obviously very conscious about it when it comes to your voice and where it goes and how you license it. How do you approach an AI project? Because I look at it and I just go, no, I think there might be a problem down the road. I'm not sure about its usage. And will I get repurposed and do I trust these people who are emailing me now? If it came from my agent, I would be more inclined to say yes. I think this is something I would take on. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:54:57 I think when it comes to AI and computers, and more importantly, how companies are bought and sold at the drop of a hat, you don't know whose hands they end up in. So I think it's just as dangerous if you're booking it yourself versus if an agent's booking for you. The adage that I go by is so far, knock on wood. My voice has not been created in an AI outside of my knowledge that I can police the usage pretty well. And I have had a small handful of issues in 40 years or 33 years, so I don't worry about it all that much. I'm pretty selective on the quantity of projects that I take on because I want to be able to superserve my clients and be available doing elearning. There's a lot of updates and future modules or I try and keep my portfolio a little more snug. So I'm not really interested in taking on a huge AI project at this time. Like you said, I think there's still some stuff that needs to get sorted out and just because you do the session doesn't mean it can go into every evolution and different package that in a technology way that perhaps we can't see. But the Beatles didn't see CDs, so, I mean, it's going to happen. The technology is going to continue to move forward. I guess, like you, I'm just picky. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:56:30 What is the one piece of memorabilia that you own that you're going to keep to the end. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:56:36 Wow. Well, I guess I'll show it to you after we get done. But I have a Seattle wall that I'm looking at in my office and it has my gold record from Alison Chains and my platinum record from Soundgarden and my autographed poster from Mother Lovebone. So if you're asking me to pick one, I'm just going to say this wall, what's on this wall over here? On the back of it? I have recently put postits on the back for my son that if I get hit by a bus, he will get it appraised before he sends it to Goodwill. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:57:08 You're not planning on being hit by a bus anytime soon, are you? Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:57:11 No, but if you're getting hit by a bus, you don't plan for that, you can't plan for that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:57:16 I think about that, too. What are my kids going to do with all this stuff? Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:57:19 Yeah, it's just stuff. I mean, that's what I keep getting stuck on, it's just stuff. But I do know I did not introduce my son to Seattle music. I did play some songs when he was about nine, but I wanted him to have his own musical journey. And of all of the Seattle artists, he found Nirvana and absolutely loves Nirvana. I had a poster, a promotional poster, huge promotional poster like they would have at the Tower Records locations of Nevermind, and it got destroyed in some water damage. And I mentioned it to him, not really realizing how big Nirvana was to him. And he would throw away everything on my wall right now if he could have that poster. Me losing that poster, I still can't live it down, but I did not plan for the water damage that we got. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:58:14 So, Kathy, it's been absolutely great to talk to you. I had a two minute phone call with you way back in the I'm glad I got more than an hour out of you now. Cathy Faulkner (Guest) 00:58:23 Bless your heart. It was so fun to talk to you today and hearing your stories about looking at our playlists and the decisions we made, that blows my mind. That is such a wonderful compliment and thank you for that perspective. Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:58:40 The Sound Off podcast is written and hosted by Matt Kendall, produced by Evan Social Media by Courtney Krebsbach. Another great creation from the Sound of media company. There's always more@soundolfpodcast.com.

Paul and Fred Jacobs start off every year by going to Consumer electronics Show in Las Vegas. It invigorates and really sets the table for the year. The show takes place the first week of January when many are still in their Christmas and New Year's stupor when many are unaware of what day it is. In this episode, I ask Paul about what he saw at CES and discuss the dash, AI, the future of AM radio, and the future of Public Radio. We also get into the three R's which include radio, retail and recession. Paul has a very steadfast answer for that third one and I can tell you based on what I have seen with travel and the number of houses being renovated on my street - he's right. Please take the time to check out this webinar from Jacobs Media about what Fred and Paul saw at CES. It's one hour and 7 minutes, and it is designed to show radio people where we may be headed in the future. It will cost you only your email address and you will be rewarded with a daily blog which is also useful. To get an idea of what you can expect, take a peek below at a blog Fred wrote earlier this year about the tech trends he suspected would drive CES this year. I also was unaware that Sheri Lynch went to CES for the first time. She is a truly forward-thinking broadcaster, and shared her thoughts about what she saw in a lovely blog post on the Jacobs Media website, which you can view by clicking on her photo on the right. And congrats Sheri on the launch of Truly Weird Stuff. Hosted by Sheri Lynch, is a podcast about all the inexplicable but very true stories out there. “I’ve spent my whole life struggling to NOT talk about all the weird things that fascinate me and often make other people uncomfortable, such as reincarnation, near-death experiences, aliens, or the idea that reality is a simulation,” said Lynch. “It’s hard masking so much weird. The True Weird Stuff podcast is where I can bring all the quirky, cryptic, creepy, odd, and just plain weird together in one place and share them with my listeners.” Transcript: Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:00:01 The Sound Off podcast podcast about broadcast with Matt Cundill starts now. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:10 This week, I welcome Paul Jacobs from Jacobs Media back to the show. He went to the Consumer Electronics Show in Vegas at the beginning of the year. It's this exciting show where the future is showcased today. You'll hear some of what happened there and get the normal dose of curious questions that I have for Paul. But if you want the full what happened at CES, there's a link to the Jacobs Media webinar in the show notes of this episode. And on the episode page, it's got, like, pictures and everything. All right, let's get into it. Paul Jacobs joins me from Jacobs Media headquarters in Bingham Falls, Michigan, where I start with the oh so obvious question one. What did I miss at CES? Paul Jacobs (Guest) 00:00:54 Reinvigoration of energy that we haven't seen since before COVID CES precovid was huge. Over stuffed, but energetic and fun. And then COVID put the brakes on. And then last year, it was about a quarter of what it normally is. And this year was a real bounce back. And one of the biggest lessons was, while we were all home hiding from COVID technology didn't stop and they were not asleep. And there is a significant amount of innovation that's ready to hit the market, and it's going to be a real splash. There's a lot going on. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:32 So I think back to some of the earlier CES expeditions that you've done, and there was a lot of Amazon and a lot of discussion about the smart speakers and how it was going to really take over. And boy, how a few years has changed. And there's not nearly as much presence. Paul Jacobs (Guest) 00:01:49 And it's even bigger than it has to do with radio. Amazon is in the buy merchandise business and not in the content distribution business. And Alexa, I believe, was originally designed to get a foothold in the home and then convert to kind of an audio shopping experience. And it appears to have stalled out. Our data and tech survey for the past couple of years has shown a flattening. And yet for radio, it's been great. They're making a big pivot. I mean, obviously, Amazon is undergoing a lot of layoffs, like most mega tech companies. But what we saw at CES was a big shift from the Alexa that we're used to to Alexa software in the car. And they had a huge display. And you can kind of tell how serious people are at CES by the size of their display. Size does matter. And they had a huge display, and it was all about cars. And so between audio navigation, but audio connectivity, to devices in your home, to audio content, to shopping in the car, to Alexa, where's the closest Starbucks, you can see how they're trying to pivot that technology aggressively into vehicles. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:03:10 Is that a moment where you and Fred would look at each other and say, maybe it's about time we had another Dash conference. Paul Jacobs (Guest) 00:03:18 Yeah, we kind of say that every time we have those two glasses of wine you were talking about. Now we think that the whole concept of the industry in Dash has probably grown beyond us. Our job was to start the boulder rolling downhill and see if it picked up steam, particularly in our industry. In some ways it has. Dash did its job and NAB really picked it up. There's still an NAB committee but it's not as aggressive. And part of the problem, and I'm happy to get into this, is the OEMs. The car companies are moving to different models and that might not favor radio moving forward. So the import of the issue actually might be larger than ever as they are pivoting very quickly. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:04:09 So the first thing that comes to mind when I hear about Amazon pivoting if I were a radio owner, I might be a little bit worried that they might not want to include me anymore because there's no money to be made from me necessarily. Paul Jacobs (Guest) 00:04:22 We went through this with Apple and our app company many years ago. Apple announced they didn't want to do individual radio station mobile apps. They wanted just I heart and things like that. And we really worked them hard. And part of it was you want a radio station with a 300,000 cube telling people to download their mobile app, which means go buy an Apple iPhone. And we were able to get through to them and I think Amazon recognizes that. I'm not hearing any barking coming from Seattle about audio. And in fact, when you look at the way at the most used features on Alexa, audio consumption is at or near the top all the time, whether it's radio stations or Spotify, Pandora and things like that. So I think we provide them with a ton of free content. Now if I was Amazon and this is going to tick off every radio person listening sorry, if I was Amazon I'd own the pre roll and in that preroll, before every radio station stream starts, I promote products you can buy on Amazon. But hey, that's me. And they don't pay me to consult them. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:05:30 That's actually the podcaster's worst nightmare is that Spotify would do that for people who don't have subscriptions. Same with Apple. They could do that if they felt like it. I don't think there's enough money in it for them to care about that. Paul Jacobs (Guest) 00:05:43 Maybe not, but Spotify just laid off what, 5000 people? Some huge amount. So every $22 cost per 1000 might be worth it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:05:53 So back to the car which you touched on and how they're including radio in the car. That would be really the sticking point for the future. The Dash and I look at electric cars, for instance and I'm not sure that exactly jibes with an Am radio. Paul Jacobs (Guest) 00:06:08 Oh boy, that is such a layered question. First of all, there's a future where you can access a radio station multiple ways in the car. So through, like, the Ford sync system or through Bluetooth or through Alexa or through apple CarPlay or Android Auto. And the OEMs don't care, frankly. Their job is to just provide you what you want. Now, Am radio, electric cars and everything else opens up a whole new discussion. We think that Am and electrification is really BS. That if the car companies wanted to do what they would. It's an expense, though, because it requires an antenna and they certainly don't want to whip antenna. It doesn't look good. And again, it's expense. But I think on the broadcaster side, and I'm going to speak for the states here and not Canada, the quality of content on Am radio has declined so much that it's hard for broadcasters to make a real case to keep Am radio without investing in the content that makes it compelling for consumers. And there are many exceptions. I mean, there's some really great Am radio stations out there, but the fact is that a lot of Am programming is incredibly niche, incredibly political, and in most cases, incredibly small. So if we want to make the case to keep Am in the car, we need to make the case that the content is worth it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:07:37 Just for the record, I was not making a case for it. Paul Jacobs (Guest) 00:07:39 Good. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:07:41 I was actually cheering when finally a news talk station flipped over from Am Calgary over to FM because the markets are over saturated with music and we don't have any blah blah talk radio on FM in Canada outside of 98, five in Montreal, and I think a station in Halifax. Paul Jacobs (Guest) 00:08:00 There you go. I mean, look, the consumers have spoken. They're there. So the future of Am in the car is up for grabs. I mean, you're already seeing it and now you could see it become a paid option. You know, if you want to talk about one of the big things we saw at CES is this shift from gadget and hardware companies like Samsung or General Motors moving from selling a hunk of metal and code to subscription models. We saw Samsung, which is the gadget company of all time, at CES, showcasing subscription models as a service that connect to all their devices. Of course, they're talking about $15 a month subscriptions for health information. The car companies are looking at it the same way. And this whole aspect of microtransactions paying for things that you already get is it hasn't hit the beach yet. But it's coming really close. Matt and radio could get caught up in that. I'm happy to expand if you want. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:09:05 Yeah, go ahead. By the way, and I have seen Fred's interview and discussion at what was Canadian Music Week, which will now become Radio Days North America, where we spent about 45 minutes talking about subscription radio with Caroline Beasley and what are the possibilities and will it come. Paul Jacobs (Guest) 00:09:20 And you were ahead of the curve because, you know, BMW now has they call it as if you've heard of SaaS Software as a service. It's fast, it's features as a service. And BMW in Europe is starting to charge a monthly fee for features that you currently get for free. They started with heated seats. Now they're looking at mapping, and they're looking at the quality of the audio. Then you pay extra to get those features. So when you pull back and look at the business model of car makers, once the car leaves the factory and it is sold, it is not sold to a consumer. It's sold to a dealer. So the manufacturer gets no more money at that moment. That's it. They get the check, goes to the dealer. Done. And the car companies are looking at this, going, well, wait a minute, we're getting nothing out of these millions and millions of customers. And along comes SiriusXM, which is a feature as a service, okay? You pay them a monthly fee, and SiriusXM writes a check every month to the car companies that comes out of the subscriptions. So if you're a car company and you're looking at SiriusXM, and then you look at good old Am and FM Radio, who's getting a free ride, you're going, Wait a minute, it's just audio. Why are we getting money from these guys and not money from these guys? And you don't have to connect too many dots to see them moving into that model. Possibly with Am first, you never know. But to radio overall, to me, this is a potentially huge battle on the horizon for our industry, and it's going to suck. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:10:53 So I'm thinking back to your presentation, the 2019 here's, what happened at CES and Paul, bad news. I keep notes of all this stuff, but I remember we were talking a lot about 5G. We were talking about Indianapolis being a place where they were going to be testing out a lot of 5G stuff. A lot of it was going to be the cars that would drive themselves. And you and I would sit there, and we'd probably be watching video and a little bit less audio. So the video has exploded a little bit. But the way you were just speaking about cars makes me believe that I will not be getting rid of my vehicle, and nor will you anytime soon. We love our vehicles. We love to personalize them with our car play and our audio ecosystems, and now that will be monetized a bit, but I don't think we're going to be getting into a shared drive yourself, Tesla anytime. Paul Jacobs (Guest) 00:11:45 No, not at all. And one of the things to understand about CES is I'm always asked, what was the hot new thing you saw? And I reflect on the 14 CES I've gone to, and there have been about 30 hot new things, of which maybe three in their original form, and concept came to market. Take autonomous driving. I don't think we're going to be laying back, taking a nap in our cars through downtown Toronto or Detroit or whatever anytime soon, but the technology behind it is already being utilized in different forms and functions. So, for example, I live in Birmingham, Michigan, nice small town suburb thing, downtown thing. There's a pizza company called Brooklyn Pizza. And I'm driving down Woodward Avenue the other day and I'm in the center lane and in the left turn lane pulls up next to me an autonomous pizza delivery vehicle, which is essentially a pizza oven designed to keep the pizza warm, that is autonomous and is driving on the streets to deliver a pizza to somebody's house. And so you're going to see more and more and more of that kind of use of that technology. So it isn't what we thought was always going to happen in the form that we expected it to, but that technology is going to be found in different areas now. 5g, we didn't quite understand it in 2019, and here we are in 23 and I still don't understand it. I know that on my iPhone in the upper right hand side, it says I have 5G, but it doesn't load any faster and the calls are just as muddy. It hasn't exactly changed my life, like they said. So to be determined again, that memory I have. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:13:35 You promised me that I could get a movie downloaded on my phone in 2.5 seconds. Paul Jacobs (Guest) 00:13:42 Okay, I lied. Come on, man, cut a dude a break. So, yeah, this also tells you just how extraordinarily complex, especially these ecosystems, like five gr and look, you're talking mega companies like Bell and Rogers and at and T and everybody else putting up billions and billions of dollars in towers and technology, and here we are. We still don't know what the hell it is right now. It just feels like marketing hype. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:14:13 So the time of year when CES takes place is always this very odd first week of January. We haven't even hit the 12th day of Christmas, and a lot of people are sort of they're not really with it, right? And they're coming off Christmas, they're likely coming off New Year's, and before you know it, somebody wakes up on the 3 January and people have gone to CES and they're very excited about it. And you and Fred always say it's the great refresher, or it really sets the table for the whole year. And I see people there who are coming to take your tours and they're excited and they're ready to go too, but I feel like I'm still in the starting block. So what am I missing and why do I need to go? Paul Jacobs (Guest) 00:14:49 Well, and this year particularly sucked because we had to fly out to Las Vegas on January 2. You're barely over the hump of the holiday at that point, and it was just the way the calendar laid out. What are you missing? Look, I've gone to hundreds of broadcasting conferences and maybe I'm just so used to them and everything else, but look, broadcasting has its challenges and honestly, it's not the most innovative industry ever. And we go to these conferences and they're all about survival and pivoting and things like that. That is the antithesis of CES. The thing I love about CES, first of all, the international aspect. Over 100,000 people are brought together and so many of them are ideas people. These are people who wake up at two in the morning with the notepad next to their bed and they're writing down ideas. And so the energy and perspective of the collective is really amazing and it is unbelievably collegial. Fred and I will meet people from around the world because we sat next to them at a diner and you find out these common threads that you have. It's funny when we see CES on TV, you see the big displays and the TV cameras and the bright lights. It's really not about that. It is just this energy of innovation unparalleled in any other venue I've been to. It's impossible to describe. And just as an aside, so this is like our 14th year. Fred brought his wife this year and she wanted to come because frankly, I think she was sick of hearing him talk about it and said, I got to check this out. And she wanted to stay two extra days and she has nothing to do with her business. She did not want to leave because there was more to see. So there you go. Somebody who just got caught up in this environment. So it's kind of obtuse answer, but that's really what it's about. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:16:53 When I see someone like John Garabedian, who I grew up listening to with Open House Party, and he's now sort of evolved himself into a radio owner. And he's always I mean, here's somebody who did the Saturday night thing out of his basement, up to the satellite calls around North America. Innovative. And he did his first trip to CES and I'd love to hear what he thought about it. Paul Jacobs (Guest) 00:17:15 He loved it. Been in the business forever. I had never talked to John. He came out of the blue and reached out to us and he was like Fred's wife. I mean, he was overwhelmed and it's exhausting. You're walking miles a day, it's crowded, it's inconvenient in every way, shape or form. But his head exploded and he said to me, I got to come back next year because I got to see what I missed. That kind of thing. And we talk about this always in our post webinar. Jerry Lee, the former owner of WBEB in Philadelphia, and Jerry's got to be in his mid 80s, sold the station, retired. This was like his 52nd CES. And getting around isn't easy for Jerry, and he is just so into figuring out what's next. Even at that age, with everything he's done, that kind of is the embodiment of what CES is. If you're satisfied with the way things are, don't go, okay? But if you want to try to figure out not only where we're at, but where we're heading and you want to be challenged, then you absolutely have. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:18:28 To go in just a second more with Paul as we discuss public radio, the importance and lack of adequate journalism in our media, and the three R's retail radio and the recession. Paul has a take on that third R, and he's right. And by the way, if you would like to find out about everything that went on at CES, you can see the full webinar from Jacobs Media. The link is in the show notes and on the episode page, along with the transcription of this show@soundoffpodcast.com. Sarah Burke (Voiceover) 00:19:00 Transcription for the the sound off podcast. Powered by Podin. Your podcast is an SEO gold mine. We help you to dig out start your free trial now at poddion dot IO. Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover) 00:19:00 This Podcast supports Podcasting 20. If you like this show or getting value from it, hit the boost button now. If you don't have a boost button, you can get one now at new podcastapps.com. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:19:26 Want to talk about the three Rs - retail, radio, and recession, which are, I think, some of the things that radio salespeople are thinking about these days. The recessions out there, nobody really wants to talk about it. Budgets are what they are. And when you're talking at Main Street America and at the retail level, what are some of the things that you're starting a brand new year that we can approach retail with in terms of engaging them with radio just a little bit more, because they've been bombed with digital for the last seven or eight years. Paul Jacobs (Guest) 00:19:56 So I'm a unicorn on this. I don't believe we're in a recession. And here's why. And it's funny. We just got our GDP data today here in the States, and it was outstanding for fourth quarter. I live in Detroit, which is the ultimate barometer of recession. Usually six months to a year before the rest of the country goes into it. We're deep into it. I know how it feels. I know how it looks. I can't get a reservation at a restaurant. Michigan just hit the lowest unemployment rate in 50 years. The car companies are spitting out bonus checks like crazy, even though car sales are down due to supply chain prices are up. People can't hire people. I mean, there's like, no metric that I'm seeing that says recession. I could also tell you with my two businesses, which are very recession sensitive, mobile apps and consulting research, there's no recession. We'd be one of the first cuts. So my first advice to a radio salesperson is stop thinking there's a recession, because the more we think there's a recession, more people will cut back and more people will fuel it. And then guess what? We'll wind up in a recession. And I'm not saying that as a blind optimist. I'm just looking around and I don't see the evidence. At the end of the day, the best salespeople aren't providing platforms or packages. They're providing ideas and solutions. And it doesn't matter where those ideas and solutions lie. Whether it's a creative 60 or a great Facebook post or whatever, it all continues to come back to providing the right content and connecting the sponsor or advertiser with it. And I've yet to see a client look at a good idea and say no because it's on the wrong platform or whatever. So I think the radio stations and companies, if I was running one, I would be amping up my aggression and creativity right now, because I think that's going to win out, particularly as other broadcasters cut back. Oh, by the way, again, personal thing. My daughter works for Nordstrom. There is no recession, at least through her lens. So again, I'm just not seeing it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:22:16 So I look at something like Nordstrom's, often located in a mall, went to Dallas for podcast movement, and yes, went up to Nordstrom just to blow a few points and wind up buying a half a new wardrobe at the same time. So what about malls and how they're going to play a role? America is fairly suburban, especially once the further westy move, especially from Detroit all the way to Los Angeles. Paul Jacobs (Guest) 00:22:39 Malls are tricky because frankly, there's such an amalgam of different businesses and we can even pull out them. I mean, the retailers who have Pivoted, smartly, and Nordstrom is clearly one of them. My daughter works in logistics and fulfillment. The Nordstrom is where she works. There are 60 people in her department who are handling online orders. They have turned the store into an online distribution center that you don't even see as a consumer. So they're growing their digital business as almost a separate unit from the retail experience, which is really brilliant. The retailers who are smart and pivoted and COVID certainly was the accelerant for things like Ecommerce are probably in okay shape. My concern about retail for radio is actually bigger than digital. It's the big box national stores that have wiped out the local guys. And at the end of the day, if radio can't build it, because Nordstrom doesn't really do radio. For example, if radio can't depend on local businesses, we're in real trouble. And if the hardware stores are closing due to Home Depot and the shoe stores are closing due to Foot Locker or whatever, much larger problem for us. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:23:53 One of the things I miss about being in a radio station right now, I would love to know how a Gen Z seller would perform. What do they bring as a Gen Z into the radio space and how would they approach the selling? And I know Gen Z would be young, you'd be boat because I got a couple of them upstairs, 23 years old. They're not interested in selling. They'd be a little bit more interested in serving and customer service. That's just those are my kids. But what do you think Gen Z would bring to the selling world? Paul Jacobs (Guest) 00:24:22 Okay, I'll be the cynic reluctance to sell radio because we're not exactly number one on their wheel of entertainment. So that would concern me. Now, again, though, that's a stereotype, but I think it holds up pretty good. I won't even ask if your kids listen to radio because mine don't. So I think they bring so much more comfort with digital and how it can be used than older salespeople who are trying to just put clients into a 62nd box type of thing. And so I think they're significantly more agile in their thinking, and they're not going to come up with radio solutions or Acute Radio Spot or any of the typical stuff that we did for centuries. But they're going to look at digital content in much different ways and just think about it in ways that guys my age can't. Real quick story, and we just wrote about this in the blog. Last week, I visited a high school radio station here in Detroit, suburban Detroit that has absolutely no local news coverage. The local paper closed the big newspaper for the city, and the TV stations and news radio don't cover local communities. And there's a high school radio station, it's been around 50 years WSDP the park, and they have created a local news department. And they covered the election for the communities, like the school board elections, things like that. And they just figured out that there was a need in their community, and they went out and did it. They've got, obviously, supervisors. But I met with the public affairs director and the news director, and they're both 17. And it was great. And so I would try to hire as many as I could, but I would clearly have to change my business model and expectations because they ain't going to fill it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:26:21 One of the things that I noticed about Gen Z is that they're really willing to put up with AI, whether it's AI software when it comes to especially with Voice, and there was some AI obviously going around. CES, what do you think radio can benefit from with AI? And the first thing that came to my mind, actually, was I was listening to a station out of Alabama. I thought, I think the weather can be delivered that way. Paul Jacobs (Guest) 00:26:46 Oh, goodness, yes. I mean, AI is kind of sprawling, so I'm going to try to narrow it down a little bit. Pay attention to this chat GPT that Microsoft was an initial investor and I think just announced $10 billion going into it. And it works. And what it does is through AI can write articles or a story or anything if given the right frame. But, for example, I could ask it to write a Jacob blog in Fred's voice, and it would skim our blogs and mimic his writing style. And then if I gave it the topic, it would write it in his voice. This is really compelling stuff. So, for example, sometimes we want our DJs to write something. Well, if DJs were great writers, they might not be DJs. They have other skills. Here can be an interesting way for radio stations to produce digital content or newsletters or blogs or whatever in an incredibly cost efficient way without asking people to get too far out of their lane. So I thought that was pretty cool. One of the coolest things we saw was a company called Conversa. They were actually featured on 60 Minutes last year. They have video recorded the stories of Holocaust survivors, and when they pass away, they go up on the site, and family members and other people can go in and talk to them about their experience and their lifelike. I mean, it's really amazing. So at CES, they had a very similar set up with William Shatner, who looked marvelous because it's the virtual world. He didn't look 90. How's that? But, yeah, you could sit there and talk to William Shatner. So why couldn't a radio station sit down with Garth Brooks and record them and create a virtual Garth Brooks and take it out to events and have people ask Garth questions and enter it? I mean, there's some amazing possibilities here to mentionalize radio, and I've probably just scratched the surface with what I've seen. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:29:00 You were mentioning just a minute ago about those high school students who had a yearn for some journalism and accuracy and media literacy and delivering a good story, which kind of leads me to something that you're really, really good at, and that's Public Radio. And knowing what Public Radio is up to and how they're different and what they're going through. So what do you see public radio role in 2023? Paul Jacobs (Guest) 00:29:25 Okay, so now I have to get up a little bit on my political soapbox. Journalism in general is clearly under fire. Objective journalism is withering to a certain extent, and so the central nature of an unbiased source of content and thought has never been more important. And public radio serves that purpose, I think, most of the time, incredibly well. Of course, Fred and I get very frustrated with public radio because we always want it to be more than it is, and it's going through some real transformation right now. NPR has been this marvelous source of programs, but they haven't really produced a Monday through Friday show in couple of decades as they shift to podcasts. So it kicks open the door for public radio stations we believe to do kind of like the high school that I talked about and really focus on local. I wrote about this recently, right before the pandemic. I was at a public. Radio conference. And Dean Bec, who was the managing editor of the New York Times, was the keynote. And he took questions afterwards, and somebody said, what's the future of public radio in ten years? And he said, if you do it right, public radio will be the sole source of local news and information in every market there's a station. And it really stopped me in my tracks, because he's right that so public radio has got to choose is it going to be a satellite dish receiver of programs, or are they really going to invest in their communities? So that's number one. Number two, public radio has the same kind of challenge most legacy organizations have, and that is their audience is old, white, and dying. And that's just the fact. And those are the people who write the checks, and those are the people they cater to. There's a finite quotient to that philosophy. And so the real challenge for public radio now is how do you reinvent yourself for millennials? And Gen Z, who are becoming majority minority, who have a different form of journalism than just spoken word, who also quite likely don't listen to the radio. So what is a radio station in that world? And that's where we're really doing a lot of work with individual stations. And that's probably going to be the next few years of our work. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:31:54 I mean, I grew up a little bit with Vermont Public Radio. 179 would beam its way into Montreal. That was really the extent of it. It really wasn't very exciting. I really didn't need it. I didn't feel I needed much from NPR until, surprisingly, 2016. And in the years after that, I got introduced to Terry Gross, and I go, oh my, she's a great interviewer. And I didn't know this. I didn't obviously spend enough time listening to VPR. And as it's evolved, NPR has a lot of the great podcasts that are up there. And podcasting has now become the number one revenue source for public radio, which seems a little bit odd, but that's what those pledge drives are all about. So we figured that out in podcasting. We've got patreon, and we talked a little bit about micro payments earlier. That's showing up now in podcasting. There's ways to solicit money from people. So what's the revenue future for public radio? How far can they take it? Paul Jacobs (Guest) 00:32:53 That's a big problem. Oh, by the way, show me a person who likes pledge drives, and I'll show you somebody who's an accountant. And that's it. I mean, here's a dirty secret about pledge. When Fred and I got involved in public radio a little over 20 years ago, approximately 10% of kim is a donor. Today, about 10% of Kim is a donor. So there's a real problem here. Pledge is going to get you to 10%, and that's about it. So even with the existing audience, you've got a model that, in my opinion, has not scratched the surface of success. But now we start looking at this generational shift. And I mean, look, Millennials and Gen Z are willing to subscribe to content that they value. There's no question. And we've done research where it's pretty clear that local, hyper, local content that's relevant to them, they place a high value on. They can find out about Trump anywhere, any day, anytime. But to find out what's happening this weekend or what are the issues in their community is damn near impossible. Nobody's figured it out, man. But a lot of people, including us, are really doing a lot of thinking because we've got to figure out who we're targeting, what are their needs, how do we provide it for them, given the existing business model of public radio and then how do we monetize it? And those are not one of those is a small question, but they must be addressed. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:34:20 And over on the journalism side, the important component is, well, people doing journalism, obviously, this is why the George Santos who finds his way to the front of the line and then we discover all the things that we should have been talking about before he's getting elected. Paul Jacobs (Guest) 00:34:37 If I was in journalism or I was a journalism professor, george Santos would occupy a significant amount of my thinking and not in terms of the story, but what went wrong. I think Santos exposed so many problems with journalism from the lack of local coverage, the death of newspapers, and as people have been saying, and now we see the negative impact on democracy. The fact that in early October, a local weekly in that district wrote about Santos but didn't have the Yank to have impact for people to take notice, and then he wins. And three or four weeks later, the New York Times breaks the story and gets credit for it. And then Josh Marshall writes about it and it's like, excuse me, this is in your coverage area and you missed it. And the New York Times missed it. The Daily News to Post, those big behemoth TV stations, WNYC 1010 Wins, they all missed it. And so to me, this is almost like a chicken coming home to roost. That we have been devaluing and disinvesting in local media coverage and local journalism and this is the price you pay. And to me it begs the question, how many other George Santos type of stories are out there that we are missing that are bubbling up and are going to bite us in the ass? And I think this is a clarion call, particularly for local. And you know what? At a time when radio is commoditized in many ways, you look at music, you want Taylor Swift, I don't have to wait. The local piece is what we can and should own and retrenching in that space is everything. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:36:30 When I look at a political party who is going to recruit people to put on a ballot, I would probably a want to be afraid that the New York Times might just take a look into this. And secondly, I'd probably want to know if the person's a bit of a butthead before they land on the ballot. And if anything the midterms taught me as a political science junkie is that people are smart and they don't necessarily vote for the party. They vote for people. And people matter whether you're running a radio station and you're talking about your morning or your afternoon drive or you're putting somebody on a ballot because essentially it's the same game, right? We want people to vote for us. Paul Jacobs (Guest) 00:37:07 Yeah. I don't know how many lies Santos has told, but let's say 20 just for the fun of it. In the old days, one of those would have nuked him, and it's kind of like pick one Jewish, the death of his mother. I mean, every one of those would kill a candidacy. Now, look, the voters also bear some responsibility here, but it is up to journalism to step up and make them give a shit. And I mean, the thing that drives me crazy about journalism today is the ramp at both sides is and again, I don't want to get too deep in the political weeds, but any objective observer could look at the Trump documents and the Biden documents and go, yeah, they're both documents, but one is a crime and one is just stupid. And at least that's what we think. So that's a whole critical thinking thing that is so lacking. And by the way, let's pivot back to youth. They're good at that. The thing that amazes me about young people is they are so much smarter at this age than we were, and that's frankly, what gives me hope. And the more we bring young people into our industry and empower them and respect them, I think the quicker we're going to get to salvation, because tweaks and cuts and riffs and the way things are currently going, we know how that's going to end up. And nobody wants to look like the newspaper industry. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:38:34 If I own a radio station, which I had mapped out in my life, plan just hasn't come to fruition yet. What would I be most excited about in 2020, 03:00 A.m. Or FM? Paul Jacobs (Guest) 00:38:46 Kidding that I have the ability to reach thousands and thousands of people in my community with whatever I choose to reach them with. And, you know, the cost of acquisition is like zero and a cost siri accepts them and Pandora and everybody else a ton. And I would be looking at the advantages I have and then the fact that I live in the area that I'm serving, so I can walk around and talk to people and get in touch. And then the final thing is radio pivots so quickly that if I'm in touch with my community and I'm in touch with my audience, I can continue to evolve whatever it is I'm doing or add new offerings or whatever faster than anybody else can. And so, again, you asked me earlier about the 2019 CES, and we are four years later and they're still pivoting and spending billions and billions of dollars a local radio station. If they're smart and in touch and their priorities are in the right place okay. Well funded, I think, can do amazing things in 2023, and we should never, ever lose sight of that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:39:57 Hey, Paul. Thanks. Paul Jacobs (Guest) 00:39:59 You're the best. I love talking to you. Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:40:01 The the the Sound Off podcast written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski. Social Media by Courtney Krebsbach - Another great creation from the the Soundoff media company. There's always more at soundoffpodcast.com.

Adam Seaborn is a sports media analyst and head of partnerships at Playmaker Capital. Last year, the Nation Network was purchased for $15 million and perhaps a few eyebrows went up. By 2023 standards, it appears to be a bargain given the dissolution of notable sports radio properties that have disappeared in markets like Calgary, Vancouver, Hamilton and Winnipeg. Of note, Maryann Turke who ran Bell for a number of years, and also worked at the NFL is the company's board director. This is a sector of the content economy that has value with a long runway for growth. In this episode, you will pick up a few best practices on how to make your sports podcast flourish, what the numbers say between both traditional and digital media, and how we count all this in order to sell it to advertisers. Please Follow Adam on Twitter... he's a good follow. Because he shares stuff like this. Some Excellent Sports Podcasts Montreal Canadiens: Habs Unfiltered. Habs Unfiltered is the premier independent fan podcast bringing you up-to-date opinions and discussions on all the latest news and stories about the Habs. Trege Wilson, Matt Smith, and Blain Potvin bring you up-to-date unfiltered opinions and insight on the Montreal Canadiens, with in-depth interviews from players to analysts, and broadcasters. If you’re talking about it so are they!!! Talkin' Buds Leafs Show The Talkin’ Buds Leafs show, two brothers Talkin’ all things Toronto Maple Leafs! We analyze the team on weekly basis sharing our opinions on all the recent news and events. Our goal is to provide casual and entertaining hockey talk! New episodes every week during the Leafs season. Calgary Flames: Barn Burner with Boomer & Pinder with Rhett Warrener. FlamesNation presents Barn Burner: Boomer & Pinder with Rhett Warrener. 5 Days a Week - Monday to Friday - 10:30am to 12:00pm MTN Live on Youtube / Twitter / Facebook Dean "Boomer" Molberg, Ryan Pinder and Former Calgary Flame, Rhett Warrener host Calgary's #1 Sports Talk Show. All things Calgary Flames, Calgary Sports, as well as a dive into the NFL, CFL, MLB, Golf and a variety of the Wide World of Sports The Edmonton Oilers: Oilersnation Radio Every week, your favourite voices from Oilersnation spend an hour breaking down the latest surrounding the Edmonton Oilers. Tyler, Rick Dan, and of course, Baggedmilk talk about everything from the last few games, trade rumours, and more. The show features popular segments like Hot & Cold Performers, the Delicious Debate, and Ask The Idiots! Vancouver Canucks: The PP1 Podcast A Vancouver Canucks-based podcast about the heralded first power-play unit. Ryan Hank and Ted Wong run the show from Kelowna and keep you informed and entertained on a weekly basis. Winnipeg Jets: Illegal Curve Airing Saturday mornings The Illegal Curve Hockey Show provides the most comprehensive coverage of the Winnipeg Jets, the Manitoba Moose as well as news from across the hockey world. Dave, Drew and Ezra keep you up to date each week on all of the latest news. Winnipeg Jets: Winnipeg Sports Talk Winnipeg Sports Talk with Andrew "Hustler" Paterson brings you the latest news, analysis and opinion on the local sports scene including Winnipeg Jets, the Winnipeg Blue Bombers, the major sports and of course betting & fantasy. Ottawa Senators: Locked On Senators Ross Levitan and Brandon Piller provide a safe space for Sens fans through lottery pick rebuilds, double overtimes in the Eastern Conference Finals and everything in between. The Locked On Senators podcast supplies insight, stats, opinions and interviews on all things surrounding the Senators organization. The key to staying up to date daily with the Ottawa and Belleville Senators is listening to Locked On Senators Podcast: Part of the Locked On Podcast Network. (@SensCentral on Twitter) The OHL Podcast Veteran broadcaster Mike Farwell brings you his unique perspective on the Ontario Hockey League. From his days standing on a milk crate while interviewing players, to spending years on the road with legendary junior hockey broadcaster Don Cameron, Farwell brings you a view of the OHL you simply won't find anywhere else. From Ottawa to Windsor, and from the Soo to Erie, the OHL Podcast has something for every junior hockey fan, bringing you the best stories from the players you cheered...and jeered. Issues and insights. Stories and sarcasm. From the fans to the front office, The OHL Podcast is your online scrapbook for one of the greatest leagues in the world. TRANSCRIPT Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:00:01 The sound off podcast. The podcast about broadcast with Matt Cundill starts now. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:11 Adam Seaborn is the head of partnerships at Playmaker Capital. That sounds pretty boring until you get a feel for what the group does. Adam is going to explain that in just a bit. He's torque at Kingstar, an advertising agency in Toronto. So, you know, he knows about metrics and ad dollars, and in 2023, it's a challenge to make sense of it all, which is why he's here. One of the reasons we're doing this episode is because there's a lot less sports radio going on and a lot more sports podcasts getting listened to. If you're a content creator or thinking about starting out on your own and separating yourself from traditional media, this episode will be a big help. Adam Seaborne joins me from Toronto, Canada. Tell me, what is Playmaker? Adam Seaborn (Guest) 00:00:54 So Playmaker is Playmaker capital. I'll start by that saying Playmaker capital. There's actually another company called Playmaker out there, often confused for one another. But Playmaker Capital has been around for just about two years now. We are a publicly traded company in Toronto, and we're a sports media company. The idea of the company really started a few years ago now, around all the changes happening in sports, sports media, sports technology, sports viewership, sports gambling. There's a lot of opportunity, a lot of change happening. This would have been in 2019, and since then, Playmakers really operated kind of like a private equity fund would in terms of investing and acquiring sports media companies, rolling them up together to create something that's globally relevant in sports. And we're still very much, we think, in the first inning, to use a bad sports analogy, of where things are. But we're really happy with where we've grown so far and where things are going. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:44 I think a lot of people in podcasting would say that it's maybe the third or fourth inning yet when it comes to sports, we're really talking about the first inning. And I think the gambling component has a lot to do with it. You mentioned you're global, but there's other parts of the world that have had gambling for a long time. So is North America legalizing gambling? Was that when the light went off here in 2019 to make a bigger jump into this? Adam Seaborn (Guest) 00:02:10 Yeah, I think that that's part of it. I think gambling is an important part of what Playmaker does and an important part of how we work with partners. But it's really not the whole business. We're not a gambling operator. We do not take any bets anywhere. We're really the picks and shovels for that business in a lot of ways, but also for traditional sports advertisers, traditional sports business. Right. I think, at least for me, it's been a long time coming in sports. I agree with you. Podcasting might be in the fourth or fifth inning. I've been an avid podcast listener for probably close to ten or twelve years now, I think in the mainstream, podcast probably entered to the consciousness of most people with serial. I think daily sports podcasting probably entered most people's consciousness with someone like Bill Simmons and then later what Barstool has done. But I think really 2019, the sports betting legalization in the US. Which again is still not ruled out in a lot of states. It's a state by state thing, has superpowered a lot of independent sports coverage because there's new money entering. So you take a business that was offshore, illegal, billions and billions of dollars, you bring it onshore, you legalize it, that money needs to get put into the market somewhere. And a lot of the first dollars in came to digital content creators and specifically podcasters. So if you look at the again, I'll use the Barstool sports of the world, the ringer podcast networks of the world, the blue wires of the world, they've seen a huge upswing in their business because of the inflection of cash from sports betting. And they've allowed the consumer habits that were already going towards podcasting to really accelerate tenfold. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:03:39 And then you caught a bit of a break in the pandemic because then a lot of content creators went home and started to not necessarily talk about sports because sports went dormant, but a lot of people did go home and want to talk about their team. And maybe when sports began to get going again, people were at home and buying microphones and jumping on YouTube and creating podcasts. I know my company just exploded with a number of people who wanted to create content, and then you had a little bit more to choose from and a lot more content that became available for a company like Playmaker to look at. Adam Seaborn (Guest) 00:04:11 Yeah, I think what happened first was that consumers were already starting to go there, specifically younger. And in the media business, there's always the obsession with finding where the next kind of cohort of listeners are. Where are the younger viewers? Are they on social media for a long time, as we have to be on Twitter and Instagram, we have to be on YouTube, we have to be on TikTok. And I think in the sports business, they found that that younger viewer was certainly not listening to sports radio. They were not tuning into WFAN in New York, they were not tuning into Sports Net 590 in Toronto, or if they were, they were doing so in a much less so capacity. They also weren't turning into full broadcasts of games on TV or streaming for that service. They just weren't spending as much time with sports. But they were still very interested in their teams. They were following their teams on social media. They were looking at highlights on Instagram, and the natural extension to that was this podcast format for sports news. Then, as you mentioned, the pandemic hits, everyone sent home, sports comes to a total halt, but content creation doesn't. In some ways, content creation kind of has this amazing boom where all of a sudden, a lot of the traditional restrictions are taken off a lot of people's plates. You had media companies that radio hosts in the past that would never have thought to have a home studio, all having home studios, traditional broadcast networks that would never have thought to find a way to digitally release their show. Digitally releasing their show. You had people nod in their cars coming to work, which is really important for sports radio, as you know. So I think all of those things really came together with the pandemic, and now it's moving forward. A foregone conclusion that podcasts will be kind of, if not the place, a very important place for sports news and sports talk. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:05:46 So one of the things that made my eyebrows go up, and I think a lot of people really take notice was the purchase of Nation Network and Oilers Nation. I was watching some of the things they were doing. They were releasing episodes on a consistent basis. They had great practices. They had a great following. Why in Edmonton? Why did this happen in Edmonton? And I spent eight years working in Edmonton in a building with sports radio. I kind of have a feel for it. But why Edmonton? I just wouldn't have guessed that that would be the birthplace of a big sports network. Adam Seaborn (Guest) 00:06:17 It's a great point, and I think a lot of people are taking off guard that it didn't start in Toronto. I'll take a step back. So we acquired the nation network again about a year and a half ago. The Nation Network today is a big network of websites, social channels, podcasts, video, kind of, you name it, in sports media in Canada and specifically around hockey. The nation network is doing something in that space. But it started in 2007 by a guy named Jay down in Edmonton. And it started I mean, this is the kind of famous origin story as a Ryan Smith specific blog post about Ryan Smith being traded away from the Oilers. I think it was something like Save Ryan Smith CA or something like that, that turned into that kind of traditional Web 1.0 blog in Oilers, which was Oilers Nation. The expansion was very organic. From Oilers nation to flames, nation to conquest. Army to leafs nation. We then brought Daily Face Off in with that network hockeyfights.com, and all of a sudden, you have this kind of network of originally just really blogs about different teams in their markets. Now. Why Edmonton? Beyond the fact that that's where our founder, Jay is from, that's the team that he loves? I think there's something really deep within the DNA of the nation network of this challenger brand against the traditional broadcast media in Canada that tends to be very Toronto and Montreal focused. The old saying that TSN stands for the Toronto Sports Network is kind of probably a played out meme. But I do think that a lot of people in western Canada and Calgary and Edmonton and Vancouver really feel that way. And as since 2016, or even going further back, there's been less investment in local sports talk, in local sports writers, in pregame shows and postgame shows locally. In each market, a lot of the content has been produced either remotely from Toronto or not produced at all anymore. There's been more and more of an appetite for, well, who are the people in Edmonton or in Calgary covering my team? Because I don't want to hear from a radio host in Toronto talking about the Flames. I want someone who's from Calgary. I want someone who's from Edmonton. So I think that kind of challenger and ecosystem of feeling that they weren't getting the proper due that they deserve from Toronto because all TSN and Sportsnet care about is the big money in Toronto, and they don't care about our team is critical to the DNA. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:08:27 So you're 100% right. Yet all these cities had a radio station up until February 2021 with local people allegedly in the market who were talking about the jets or the Flames or the Oilers, and radio just never got credit for it. I guess that goes back to what you said about people just drifting away from the radio. Adam Seaborn (Guest) 00:08:47 Yeah, and I mean, that comes back to an economic issue where I think you could have Howard Stern doing the morning show in Edmonton, and it's not going to draw nearly enough listeners for Numeric to put enough of a rating on it for advertisers to buy it. It just isn't going to happen anymore. Listener habits have changed too much. So I'll use Calgary as an example in that market. The nation network and within our Flames Nation brand has a show called Barb Burner. That is a daily live show. It is put it as a podcast, but it is also live on YouTube. There are clips, put it on social media, and that is really the show that was on the sportsnet station in that market. It is Boomer rhett warner and Ryan Pender doing much of the same things that they were doing for sportsnet, but now doing it within the nation network. Is their audience bigger now digitally than it was before? I think it is because they are incentivized to not just reach an audience on YouTube, but reach it on podcast, also reach them on Twitter, also reach them in live events, and they are able to really control how they interact with their audience. They're not getting up at four in the morning to do their three hour radio slot and then going home. If the show needs to go 2 hours one day, it goes 2 hours. If it's only 45 minutes, it's only 45 minutes. If we need to have and we had some great interviews a few weeks ago, if we have someone in for a long time. Let's let them talk for an hour. And that's really the freedom that podcast and digital media provides. There's also an ability to interact with the audience in a much more authentic way for hosts with podcasts. So, yes, when you're the sportsnet radio or TSN radio host, you see posts on Twitter and you have people call into the show and things like that, but it's very different than you owning the show, being on Twitter, hearing from people, seeing the live chat on YouTube. One of the things that we heard in Calgary is that people wanted more content from that show. They wanted to know what's happening or what people's thoughts were right after the game. Hence the launch of After Burner, which I think we've done five or six episodes now, of immediately after a Flames game. You're going to get, again, could be 20 minutes, could be 40 minutes, it could be 2 hours, depending on how the game goes, of post game conversation that goes out as a podcast and on YouTube. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:10:45 I think that The Big Loser, with sports radio stations folding up, is really directed at the team and the team only. They're the big loser because they're now not getting radio airtime, which was largely free. Sports radio station is not obligated to talk about the Flames all day or the jets all day. They can talk about they can talk about the Rough Riders. They can talk about the Stampeters or the Bombers. So when the sports radio stations went away, I felt that it was really like the Winnipeg Jets. That would really lose out in the end when you're not having that conversation. And by the way, those stations have been replaced with comedy. Adam Seaborn (Guest) 00:11:18 Now, I think that that's a good insight. I think that the Big Loser is local market teams, the local radio station. It was a really great agreement for both sides. The team gets a 24 hours promotional channel, essentially talking about the team, breaking down the games, interviews with other people around the league, whatever that is. It's really a promotional tool. They get to broadcast the games. They sell advertising against it. It really was a win win. Not dissimilar to how the sports section of the local paper works, right? The writers get access. They write about the team. People buy papers to read about the team. You read about the team. You want to go tune into the game, you want to go buy tickets to the game. It was this ecosystem that's feeding itself really nicely as the local media disappears in those markets, the teams have a challenge on their hands, which I think they probably have realized really, really acutely in the last few years, is that it's not a foregone conclusion that people in Winnipeg are going to care about the Winnipeg Jets. Sometimes you take for granted that people in Winnipeg are going to care about the jets because it's the team that's local there. There's a lot of brand building work that has to be done to do that. And you have to go out and you have to engage your fans. And the team can directly engage their fan base, they can engage season ticket holders, they can do paid media posts. But it's a lot more efficient when you have this kind of quasi third party relationship with a radio or TV network who is you're not telling them what to say. So there's the perception of objectivity, but they're kind of in bed with you, right? Like they are they are there to make sure that in 100 years the Winnipeg Jets are as relevant as they are today and you're really in bed together to help one another. Does that mean you can't be critical of the team, the coach, the players? Of course you can. But there's that symbiotic relationship. Those local radio stations and newspapers start to disappear. How are you going to reach your fan base now? People like Hustler and Remus in Winnipeg and Winnipeg sports talk guys have done an amazing job essentially taking what they did on the radio, doing it themselves, engaging the local fans. But if there wasn't someone like that doing in the market, the team is going to have a challenge. How do I reach fans in those markets in the absence of local media? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:13:15 One of the things about Edmonton that I wanted to point out and why I think Nation Network did so well is because of 1260 a. M which was not a rights holder which could criticize the team which had personalities like Jason Gregor and Ryan Griffiths and built a brand for many years that was really based on we're not going to carry the games and we're going to speak honestly. And I think that's really another benefit for a lot of content providers online is that they may not necessarily have a relationship where they need to be in the press box to talk about the team. Adam Seaborn (Guest) 00:13:47 Yeah, I think that sometimes I think for fans rings really true. With, again, not to call it anyone specifically, but let's say with the Blue Jays and Sportsnet, it's at the Rogers Center, it's the Rogers Sportsnet broadcast, it's on a Rogers TV channel and they own the team. So I think there's times when the Blue Jays are probably deserving of criticism that Blue Jays fans say, well, where do I go to get Blue Jays information that's not from someone working for sportsnet? And as there are less and less writers from the Star, the sun, the Post, global Mail going down to the games and there's less people on, if it's not sportsnet radio in Toronto, it's TSN Radio, how much do they really cover the Jays? I mean, not very much, is the reality. Where do I go to get like an authentic independent analysis of the Jays? Someone who's actually going to be critical of decisions that they make. So you're totally right. I think listeners, viewers, TV watchers are cognizant of when they see a TSN kind of news hit on a TSN broadcast for TSN rights holding activity, as opposed to, as you say, with 1260. No, we're going to tell you how we really feel because we have no obligation to the team. And Oilersnation.com is the same way. Hey, we we don't have a relationship with the team. Actually, the team is a little adversarial with us, which is good. We have no reason to say something that we don't believe to be true. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:15:01 Shout out to Jamie Campbell, by the way, who I worked with in Edmonton, who is calling Blue Jays games. Adam Seaborn (Guest) 00:15:08 Absolutely. And listen, this is one of the challenges of living in a country with only 38 million people and the media gets consolidated. It's not to call it any individual people, right? Like, I think that anyone from a rash modernity to Jamie Campbell, to anyone at Sports down their Blue Jays broadcast, they are going to, within reason, call it as they see it. I think TSN, honestly, if you look at what Rick West Head has done around Hockey Canada, they could have easily, probably deprioritized those stories. They didn't. They did the right kind of, quote unquote, journalistic thing there. So I think that the broadcasters are doing the right thing. But day in, day out, it is hard sometimes for listeners to take seriously someone who is that connected to the ownership of the team or the ownership of the broadcast rights for the team. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:15:48 I know you see the numbers, obviously. You mentioned 38 million people. It kind of feels like Canada is really a bunch of islands. We've got the Connex island and then we've got the Alberta island, which kind of meets in the middle in Red Deer. And Winnipeg is completely its own island altogether in Montreal and Toronto. Those are what they are. But listen, I had a Marley's podcast at one point in my network and it outperformed the jets. So numbers are numbers. How do you look at the 38 million people in Canada and getting them to engage with your content? Adam Seaborn (Guest) 00:16:23 Yeah, it's a great question. I think that for playmaker that's within the nation network or other assets as well. What's important to us is local. So what will never work is trying to cover a team or a league or a sport remotely, or from kind of this kind of third party approach. This is true with we own a group of sites and broadcasting in Latin America called football Sites. It operates in every country in Latin America. We would never have one of our writers that covers River Plate in Argentina, not be from Argentina, in Argentina, aware of the local kind of everything that's going on in that market. I think you do yourself a total disservice by doing that. So I think local first matters, but within Canada, it is interesting because in the population density, the reality is that in English Canada, you know, the majority of people are in Ontario, and actually the majority of people are in the Golden Horseshoe in English Canada, right? So there is a hyper focus on things that are happening in the Golden Horseshoe. Ottawa, Toronto, Montreal maybe a little bit past the horseshoe. I think that what I was saying earlier about not feeling as though they're serviced well by the existing legacy. Media is an important piece for what performs well. As we have invested into markets that are seeing a decline in investment from traditional media, we see really good uptake in those markets because the fan base hasn't gone anywhere. Just because the advertising dollars have left radio in that market doesn't mean the fans have left the market. If anything, the fans have grown in that market. But it is an interesting challenge. As you continue to grow, how do you balance the resources? How do you balance the time that you spend on Toronto or Montreal compared with realistically, the biggest thing ever in Winnipeg is still in a market that is significantly smaller than the rest of the NHL markets. How does you balance that? A really, really great outcome in Calgary is still not going to outdraw a mediocre outcome in Toronto or Montreal in just a second. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:18:16 More with Adam including tips about podcast. Discoverability getting the most of your podcast through scheduling. And what do ad agencies think of all this? Also, Adam's going to provide a compelling argument for why your show, even your sports show, needs dynamic audio insertion. And finally, I'll ask the question of life how do we count all this? There's more. There's always more. Including suggestions to some great homemade sports podcasts@soundoffpodcast.com. Sarah Burke (Voiceover) 00:18:47 Transcription for the The Sound Off podcast powered by Podin your podcast is an SEO goldmine. We help you to dig out. Start your free trial now at potent IO the the the The Sound Off. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:19:01 Podcast crux of the conversation we were having on Twitter has to do with what you just spoke about and that's do we have more engagement now with our local teams or do we have less? My argument is that maybe we have a little less because the radio has gone away and not everybody has yet gravitated over to the digital side. I think it takes three years to build an audience, whether it's a radio station, whether it's your own brand, wherever it is, and it will catch up and it will replace itself. But the question, how do we count all this? Because you've got numerous with this antiquated diary method. You've got some YouTube, you can get some plays. It only takes 1 second to get a play podcast. You need 1 minute for an IAB certified download. Are you a math major? Adam Seaborn (Guest) 00:19:48 I mean, it's a great question. IAB has a conference happening right now and this is something that has been plaguing advertising honestly forever, but has been really at the forefront, I would say, in the last ten years we've heard of in the US. Nielsen being, I would say, ousted as the primary metric for TV and radio in the US. There are upfront is going to happen this year in May in the US. Where Nielsen ratings will not be sold for the first time, for major broadcast networks and for your listeners that don't maybe quite have and understand what that means. Upfront period in the US is in May and Canada, traditionally in June, all the advertisers and their agencies in the world go, and traditionally we'd see a presentation from Fox, from NBC, from CBS. They'd say, here are all the great shows we're going to have this year. Here's all the great content we're going to be having. If you pay now and invest in advertising time, you're going to get a discount than if you were to go out and pay during the scatter market. And the way that we're going to guarantee that your investment is worth something is against a rating provided by Numerics, who's Nielsen in the US. Numerus and Canada third party rating service less and less has that like, live broadcast number being important to advertisers. They're spending more money on digital. So there's been a lot of challenges in terms of how do we measure all this, how do we measure engagement? Used to be very easy. You could just say, well, this many people watch the TV, this many people tune into radio. I know that that's going to give me this number of gross rating points on the market. Boom. My advertising campaign works. Broadcasters can say this show is a success, the show isn't now it gets quite messy. So you're right. YouTube, you have views behind the scenes on YouTube studio, you can see a lot more data in terms of click through rate. You can see time spent, you can see what content are my subscribers also watching before they watch mine? How often is YouTube recommending my content? How many of my views are coming from subscribers versus non subscribers? What percentage of people are subscribing? When do they subscribe? Why do they subscribe? So there's a lot more data available for content creators, but it is messy to take a 10,000 foot view and figure out what is working. Is there more engagement or is there less? All of that is kind of a long preamble to say. I would suggest that people are more engaged with sports today than they were in the past. I think that if you are a fan, and I'm not going to say that there are more fans than today, but I think someone who is a fan, they have so many more ways to engage with their team than they used to that they are more deeply engaged. So if you go back, let's call it 2030 years, I might watch the tick game on TV. I might listen to the sports radio or listen to the radio broadcast of it. I might read the paper. But beyond that, there's not really much else I can do to engage content with the team today. If I'm a fan of, I'll use a Toronto Maple Leaf, which I'm a fan of. Not only can I watch the game, I can watch the morning skate. I can follow a dozen writers on Twitter. I'll talk about line combinations. I can look at fantasy hockey points. I'm probably into multiple different pools where Leaf players are relevant. I can listen to podcasts breaking down all sorts of elements, both of my team and other teams HEADHEAD matchups. And that's before even getting into things like sports betting or on top of all of that, now I can also wager on the game and look at all sorts of different ways to play against that sport. So I would say that people who are fans have the opportunity to become even more loyal, passionate, kind of engaged fans than they ever did before. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:22:59 So you posted on your Twitter the numbers from the weekend. In this case, it was the divisional matchups. It was about roughly the same between the AFC and the NFC. The Sunday night game got a little bit more in terms of viewing in Canada, I think it was 1.7 million was the number that you quoted. So when you see that number and you pull it up on a Monday morning, what are you looking for and what are you thinking about? Adam Seaborn (Guest) 00:23:21 So I started putting some of the numbers up on Twitter a few years ago, because it all started when I was before I was working with Playmaker, I was working at advertising agency, and what often would happen is that brands were surprised to learn what people actually watched. The example I would often give people was how low viewership for NBA games was in Canada, and how high viewership was for CFL games. People had the perception a lot of the media and advertising people were based in Toronto, or were actually based in New York or the US. They had the perception that the NBA must be extremely popular. The Raptors are popular, drake's popular. The NBA is cool. It's popular on social, on TV. People must watch a lot of NBA. The reality is, in Canada, the Raptors do just fine with the GTA, and when they're on their playoff run, they did very well. But the reality is, on a day in, day out, nobody in Canada really watches the Lakers play the Clippers on a Tuesday night on TSN. So I realized that that was like a real blind spot. A lot of advertisers had started putting out those numbers on Twitter. Now, what I'm looking for is a good question. There's not really necessarily anything I'm looking for. I think sometimes it's just interesting to put the numbers out there without comment. And allow people to start to form a bit of a picture in their mind of what they care about versus what the masses care about. And Numeris, which provides the TV ratings, it's an imperfect science, as every rating system is, but it gives you a snapshot of what everybody is watching. It gives you an idea of what is the kind of most mass popular thing out there. And the reality is that hockey day in Canada is generally the biggest show of the week. Prime time hockey net in Canada 07:00 p.m. Is generally the biggest show of the week on TV in Canada. And then the NFL Super Bowl is always the biggest rating every year. And NFL playoffs are usually very high too. And that's been the same in this country for a long time, for probably ten years now. The CFL has seen decline in viewership over that ten years. I know CFL people will be upset with me to hear that, but it's the reality. The NFL has really picked up steam over those last ten years. The NHL has, in my opinion, kind of stagnated. It's certainly not growing. It's hard to grow when you're number one. How much can you really grow? But it's not really shrinking that much. I think there's some hand wringing that happens in the media. Kids aren't as interested in hockey. Hockey and Canada doesn't hold the same place that it used to. It's kind of stayed relatively the same over that time period. So what I'm really looking at is, or thinking about and trying to have a conversation on Twitter about is think about your own viewing habits, think about what you care about, and then compare it to the rest of Canada. And there's a chance that you are based in Toronto or you're based in Vancouver, you're based in Montreal, and you have a little bit of either urban bias, you have a little bit of bias towards your team, him, you have bias towards your sport. And the reality of what Canada as a whole is watching is quite different. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:25:55 And thank you, by the way, for posting that. And you should follow Adam on Twitter because he's a great follower. Just simply if you just want to have those numbers. I mean, one of the great questions, the easiest trivia question I serve up all the time in the bar is what is the number one TV show in America? And the answer is, it's always a. Adam Seaborn (Guest) 00:26:13 Super bowl, and it's always the NFL. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:26:15 Yes. Sunday Night Football. Adam Seaborn (Guest) 00:26:17 Actually, what's even funnier is that, looking at last year, I think there's lots of good ratings information in the US. And there's lots of kind of a cottage industry of this. Last year, the top 100 games, I think it was something like 88 of them were NFL games, a couple of them were college football. You had an inauguration or state of the union address usually in there, but of the NFL ones of the 100 biggest broadcast of the year last year in the US. Twelve of them were Cowboys games. So in reality, the most popular TV show in the US is the Dallas. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:26:44 Cowboys, followed by the Packers, Steelers and. Adam Seaborn (Guest) 00:26:47 Whoever'S playing in the 04:00 P.m. Window on Fox usually. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:26:51 Absolutely. You gave away a great tip earlier on how to if you're doing a sports podcast and that's record the show right after the game is over and have it ready to go the next morning. Do you have any other tips you want to serve up? Adam Seaborn (Guest) 00:27:06 It's a really interesting question. I think sports podcasting is now kind of catching its stride as a real established medium for sports content. So I use Bill Simmons as an example. He's been doing his podcast for a really long time. Originally was doing this with ESPN and Spawn off in the ringer. The Ringer was acquired by Spotify and his podcasts and kind of within his network have changed a lot. But a lot of what he did is a really good playbook. So one exactly what you just mentioned, when there's a big game, bill Simmons or Ryan Rosillo or whoever's within his network covering the NBA or cover the NFL playoffs, they will record almost immediately after the game. Barstool sports part of my take, largest sports podcast in the world. They will record Sunday afternoon, Sunday nights so that it is in your inbox, it is in your podcast feed first thing Monday morning. That is because it is really a race to first when it comes to content. People do not want to wait until 04:00 P.m. For the drivetime radio host to tell them their opinion. By then, they've already heard every opinion out there. They've already read every stat. No one is going to wait for 04:00 P.m.. So getting your show out in a timely fashion I think is really important. I think a lot of people get really concerned about format and structure. I think that that is a total red herring. Do not get distracted by that. Your podcast does not need to be the same every single time. Format and structure are really helpful for hosts, I think, but I don't think they're necessarily as helpful for listeners as you think. If sometimes the podcast needs to be an hour and a half long and other times it needs to be 45 minutes long, your listeners will totally understand. They are not used to the show being half an hour. That's not a sitcom. They're not sitting down expecting three ad breaks and A story, a B story and then a C story. That's not what they expect, but they expect it's for you to cover the team in a way that makes the most sense. Those are two tips that I really strive to tell people. And the last thing is that you got to make it easy for people to find your show and learn about your show and taste your show. So podcast, notoriously, is really, really difficult for Discoverability. There really isn't a great Discoverability tool for podcasting. So what you need to do is you need to find the best moments, your podcast, 15 seconds, 30 seconds, a minute, five minute interviews. Those need to be clipped and those need to be put on other social media channels that have the ability to go viral. TikTok, Twitter, more and more now, actually. The way the algorithms being set up with Elon, and now there's a for you page more and more on Twitter TikTok and Instagram reels and YouTube shorts as well. Take the best moments of your podcast and put it out on those channels. Chances are someone's going to find that clip and eventually say, I'd like to hear the rest of that interview. I'd like to hear where that host was going with that. The other thing is that a lot of people assume that their listener is a little unintelligent. You don't need to give them all the setup and preamble for those clips. Just dive right into halfway through an answer of a question. People will figure it out, and if they can't quite figure it out, they're going to go find the full clip elsewhere. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:29:51 That's a great point about the algorithm and Twitter having changed because I have been bombed with nothing but Buffalo Bills bitching and complaining the minute I turn on my Twitter. Just the way I interact on Twitter. Adam Seaborn (Guest) 00:30:03 Right. You must have been following me then, after the loss. Yeah. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:30:07 Are you a Bills fan? Adam Seaborn (Guest) 00:30:08 I am a Bills fan. That was a disappointing weekend because that's. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:30:12 The same support group, Bills and Leafs. Adam Seaborn (Guest) 00:30:14 Unfortunately, in a lot of ways, we share similarities of just gut punching defeats. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:30:19 Yeah. And thank you, by the way, for talking about the Discoverability side of things. You need a website. You absolutely need a website. Adam Seaborn (Guest) 00:30:27 Yeah. And another thing on Discoverability, what's been really successful for me in terms of discovering new podcasts is often this kind of collaboration culture that exists on YouTube with people, where you have a podcast in a space that could be competitive to me or the same as me. You come on my show, I'll go on your show, and it gives us a chance to cross pollinate each other's audiences. YouTube, again, a lot of YouTube creators are really, really good about this, of kind of sharing their audience. They don't get too precious about, although I'm doing a leaf show, so I don't want you to do I don't want to go on your leaf show because people won't want to come to my leaf show. The reality is that we're still in the growth phase for a lot of people's habits changing. It doesn't cost you anything to subscribe to another show or to add another show onto your kind of Twitter following or anything like that. So don't be afraid to cross pollinate with people who are in your space or even not in your space, it might bring a totally different audience. Yeah. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:31:17 So two things I'll just add to that is that you have the ability to cross promo. So just swap promos between the shows is something you could do. And then the other thing is, we talked about algorithms. Whether you like it or not, the minute your show finishes on Apple or Spotify, apple or Spotify will recommend that show that you share audience with to the listener because they want to keep that listener on the platform. So it's not radio where the station down the street is your enemy. Your perceived competition is your ally. Adam Seaborn (Guest) 00:31:46 I mean, the reality is that online your competition is attention. It's everything. No one will ever hear your show if they never first click on it. So it's all working backwards to getting that first click online and that first click on YouTube. YouTube will give you really good insights on what they like. They will tell you, we are prioritizing YouTube shorts right now. So if you're not producing YouTube shorts, you should be producing YouTube shorts. If you go into the YouTube studio, they will tell you, we recommended your video to X amount of people. The click through rate was this we want people to spend time on YouTube. So the higher the click through rate is, the more we're going to recommend your videos, the more people are going to spend time on YouTube. If people aren't clicking your videos, you got to figure out why the headline bad? Is the thumbnail bad? Why are people not clicking your video? They have no chance to hear or see your content if they've never click on it. Podcast the same way. Is it uploaded on a consistent basis? If you say it's going to be at 02:00 p.m. Eastern, is it up there at 02:00 p.m. Eastern? Is it on every channel? Does it look good on every channel? If I want to Spotify and Apple, which really are the two biggest ways that people tune in, I wouldn't worry about too much else but Spotify and Apple, if it's there, does it look good? Is the thumbnail clear? Is the description clear? Can you give me an easy way to get into the episode and know what I'm dealing with? You got to really play into what the apps want because at the end of the day, they want people to spend time with their app and they don't really care about the content beyond that. They care about the content the same way a computer cares about it doesn't get the click. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:33:05 So back 2018 2019. Now, I think I was talking with Julie Adam from Rogers at the time and she mentioned that keeping the sports network separate from the frequency network and I thought that was a great idea because you really didn't need dai for your sports podcast. But as time went on, it turns out maybe we do need some dai dynamic ad insertion for our sports podcast, because people do go in and listen to older episodes. Adam Seaborn (Guest) 00:33:31 People absolutely do. I mean, we have actually seen within the nation network in the summer where a lot of our town are off. The NHL is not being played. We'll put back old episodes or old interviews that are totally outdated. Right. We'll have an interview with a player or a coach that maybe 60% of the interviews talking about things that are not time sensitive, but 40% is talking about the current AHL. Those episodes will still do quite well from a download perspective. So people definitely with sports media and sports news will go back for certain types of content. In terms of dynamic ad insertion, I'm very in favor of dynamic ad insertion for every podcast. The reality is that if you're a content creator, you produce a podcast, you're putting that product out for free. Anybody who downloads it is paying you absolutely nothing. So if you have a way to make some money and monetize it and improve the content, I think you should. I think on Radio there's an exception that well, there's two and a half minutes of ads, whatever it is. But that was radio. Podcast doesn't need that. I think there's a happy medium between the two. On Radio and Canada, the regulation is twelve minutes of ads per hour. So think about that. Twelve minutes of ads per hour. That's probably 24 32nd spots in a given hour of content. On Radio, you're never going to see a podcast. It's an hour long with 24 32nd ads. That would be a lot. But what about 1030 2nd ads? What about seven? What about five? I think a lot of people think I could have one ad read at the top, one in the middle, and maybe one post roll. I think there's a chance that you can increase that ad load without insulting or disrespecting your audience. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:34:56 Interestingly, too, if you get involved with, let's say, Spotify or Amazon, who are in the business of reselling your ad space in a place like Finland, or in the case of the Winnipeg Jets, I believe it's Denmark. It's Nikolay EhlersFrom Denmark. Well, a jets podcast is going to get downloads from Denmark. De facto. Amazon or Spotify will put ads, Danish ads, into the podcast. Therefore you get paid twice. So maybe there are many more minutes than you think. Adam Seaborn (Guest) 00:35:25 Yeah, I mean, Matt with Oilers Nation, I will say that the number two fan base that's out of people at Edmonton are people from Germany. Very surprising. But Leon Drysidel has got a massive following, and all those people have become Edmonton Oilers fans. Have become Oilers nation fans. They listen to our podcast. There's even a German version of Eulersnation.com out there. We've had people from Germany fly to Edmonton to go to games with some of our Oilers Nation staff. So I totally agree with you. I think that one of the real benefits of digital media, compared to traditional radio or traditional broadcast, is that it is global. I mean, I've downloaded local radio from markets in the US for certain sports or markets in the UK that in the past I never would have gotten. And with dynamic ad insertion, I'm still going to get an ad for RBC or Tim Hortons in front of it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:36:08 So I think you and I would both agree that the digital space in sports is going to grow. We're going to have a lot more homegrown content creators. But from the business side, what do you see? What do you think? What do you know? Adam Seaborn (Guest) 00:36:20 Look, I think the business of sport is still very much growing. So if you look at valuations of Big Four professional sports teams, or look at EPL teams, or look at Formula One, I mean, the last ten years have really been a rocket ship for a lot of these teams. Forbes put out kind of full coverage of the biggest sports media empires. I think yesterday or today, the highlight of that list being Liberty Media, who owned Formula One and also own, I believe, the Atlanta Braves. I want to say they purchased Formula One for $8 billion in 2016. It's known now valued at about $17 billion. Drive to survive has helped grow it in the US. They've helped put on more stops in North America to grow that league. But also, if you look at just MLB teams, a league that a lot of people said was getting really old and dying, their values have gone through the roof. NBA teams have gone up like crazy in value. NHL teams are still growing in value today. Even a team like the Sanders, which is a smaller Canadian market team, it is worth close to a billion dollars today. So I think sports team valuations are high. The reason they're high is because sports media rates have gone through the roof. It's pretty much the only thing that people will watch live advertising premium for Live. I think that sports is still going to continue to grow in terms of an industry and dollars spent against it. I do think that the globalization of sports is still happening where local sports are maybe going to be a little bit more challenged than they have been in the past when we look at kind of BCD level teams. So because there's so much great sports content available digitally, because streaming services have allowed you to bring I can watch every single soccer league that I want to in Toronto, and I didn't used to be able to do that. Right between Paramount Plus and Fubo and Duzone and TSN and sportsnet, any soccer game that happens in the world, I can stream and watch at home. So maybe that's going to hurt someone like Toronto FC or MLS. I can watch any single baseball game I want at any given time. So if I'm a baseball fan, I might not necessarily be a Toronto Blue Jays fan from Toronto. I could easily become a fan of, you know, maybe I'm a fan of the Phillies after their run last year and I become a Phillies fan. I can pretty much watch every Phillies game streaming online here in Toronto. So I think there's a challenge of localization where you still need to engage your local fan base, but sports as a whole is going to be continuing to grow in my eyes. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:38:34 Do we still have an education piece with the advertising agencies? Adam Seaborn (Guest) 00:38:39 Absolutely. And I sometimes am critical of them from an education standpoint. I've worked with them in the past. I've been at an ad agency. The reality is it's not just education. I mean, when you sit down and you do presentations at ad agencies and you speak with leadership, there strategy people, media buyers, they understand, right? These are not unintelligent people. But the incentives for an ad agency specifically for media buyers has never really aligned with innovation. It's really aligned well with especially what's happened again over the last 1015 years of all these agencies essentially being acquired by one another into these giant roll ups is that the name of the game is being control the market as much as you can, right? So buy as much upfront inventory as you can with the biggest broadcast partners so that you control the market so that advertisers have to work with you as their agency to get the best pricing. And then the commission rates just kept getting driven down, down, down. I think we're at an inflection point now where agencies are starting to take on projects on a performance basis, on a revenue split basis, opposed to a commission basis, are being incentivized or challenged by their clients to do things on their own or do things more innovatively, or we're going to do it on our own. You'll see big brands now having five, six, seven agency partners to use for different types of projects. So I think the incentives for agencies need to change a little bit still. But they are educated. They know that the media world is changing, mean, they just need to be incentivized, that it's a better deal for me to because as it stands right now, it's easier for them to take last year's plan. This is the old adage that you take last year's media plan, you add 5%, you put new dates on, and you send it to the client. No one loses their job for doing that, right? You never lose your job for buying a TV spot in hockey netting Canada. But the reality is that that probably isn't a very innovative way to be spending your media dollars in Canada. And there's probably a lot of other things you could be doing to activate be your brand. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:40:26 Adam, thanks so much for being on the podcast and, man, this is exciting times, exciting things happening and so many creators getting in the space and it's just awesome to see all this happening. Adam Seaborn (Guest) 00:40:35 Yeah, Matt, any time. It was really fun. Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:40:37 The the Sound Off podcast written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski social Media by Courtney Krebsbach. Another great creation from the the Soundoff media company. There's always more@soundolfpodcast.com.

At its core, podcasting has always been about marketing. So it should come as more surprise that Danny Brown found his way into podcasting. I first became aware of Danny when I found his assisting many others on Facebook groups with typical podcast problems like, "How do I get more Downloads?", and "I just bought a Blue Yeti and it sucks, what is a better podcast mic to use?" That led to Danny becoming about of renowned Captivate.FM as a support leader. In this episode, you will hear answers to some of those typical podcast questions, find out Danny's take on Podcasting 2.0 and the value of having transcription on your show, and what Scottish football club he cheers for and why. As a fun bonus, we are going to attempt to use a new transcription service to see how it fares with Danny's Scottish accent and my Canadian accent. Check below the transcript to see Aidan's review of the new service. Transcript: Speaker 1 00:00:01 The sound off podcast. The podcast about broadcast with Matt Cundill starts now. Speaker 2 00:00:11 Today, someone I would like you to meet. Danny Brown. Hails from Scotland and moved to Canada. He works customer support for Captivate FM. That's a very good podcast host, by the way, if you're looking to start a podcast, danny was a big help. When I went looking for a transcription service to use, he suggested Poten dot IO, which is sadly no longer in service. Not sure if that's temporary or not, but as of now, we're looking for something new. And by the way, as you can hear from Danny's voice, finding a transcription service that functions well with accents is a must. Danny's path to working with Captivate FM is more captivating. He's been a regular participant on Facebook Groups and helping people with everyday podcast issues. We're going to answer some of those questions today. Danny Brown joins me from the podcast capital of Canada, Huntsville, Ontario. Speaker 3 00:01:03 I thought I would come out of the gate with a very, very serious question. And is it Celtic, rangers, hibs or hearts? Speaker 4 00:01:10 I'm from Edinburgh originally, so it should technically be Hibs or Hearts, but I was always a Meadow Bank fiscal supporter, which was like a third tier team, really small team in Edinburgh and then Edinburgh City Council didn't want a small team competing with Harts and Hibs, so they took the stadium off them and booted them out. Edinburgh, they moved 7 miles west to Livingston, renamed to Leinster, and that's my team. Speaker 3 00:01:32 How did you get to Canada? Speaker 4 00:01:33 I met a girl was away. I was a big fan of Dashboard Confessional, which is a very old emo band from the early Knots. And I was on the website, on the forum and just reviewing their latest album, where I think I'd maybe talked about some Scottish punk music or whatever, and this girl replied and said, I really like that. My granddad's Scottish. I'd love to hear more punk music, stuff like that. So we got communicating. Six months later, something clicked. She came over to visit me in the UK in October of that year. I came over to visit her in Canada December of that year, and that was 2006. Been here ever since. And now we've got two kids and been married 16 years. 15 years. Speaker 3 00:02:11 After going up and down the LinkedIn, it looks like at your core, you're a marketer. Speaker 4 00:02:15 I am, yeah, for my sins back in the day. And my my background is corporate marketing and marketing agencies. But I moved away from that probably about 2018. 2019. I've been doing it for years now. I've been there for a long time, so I just moved away and I was getting more into the tech side, like podcast and Lake hosting. That attracted my geek side from a career point of view as well. Speaker 3 00:02:38 So what was your first podcast experience? Speaker 4 00:02:41 I would say unofficially, 2009. And that's when I had one singular episode on Blog Talk Radio, where I interviewed Chris Brogan, and Chris was like a really leading light of social media at the time. So I thought, that's pretty much my peak. I'm done, I've reached my guest status is up there, so I'm done. So that was my first episode and then I didn't do anything until 2016. So what's that seven years approaching now? Speaker 3 00:03:07 I guess when I look at podcasting, I see a marketing opportunity. Every time somebody puts out a podcast episode, you've got the marketing background. How do you look at the opportunity for podcasting? Because I'm guessing you see a marketing opportunity before you see monetization. Speaker 4 00:03:26 Yeah, and I think that's true for any marketing. My colleague Mark, who's one of the cofounders of Captivate, where I work, is an awesome marketer, and he's always telling, you, know your goals first and know what you want to achieve first, and then suddenly you work that back, sort of reverse engineering and what steps you're going to take to get there. So if you want to sell a book, if you want to sell an online course, great. Who's your audience and what's the cost of that? What's the benefit to them and the cost to them? And then, okay, what's all the steps leading up to that? So, simply, podcasting. You want to release a podcast? Sure, you can release a hobby one and not even worry about monetization it's for you, your friends, your family to listen to. But if you want to take it seriously and make it generate revenue, et cetera, for your business, yourself, your brand, whatever way, end goal, work, back, start point, and then that's your path to that end goal. Speaker 3 00:04:18 How did you get involved with Captivate? Speaker 4 00:04:21 I started off as a customer. I was a user, I joined them. I think I tried maybe three or four different hosts prior to landing on Captivate, and I wanted to start to experiment more with different formats and different types. But at the time, if you had an additional podcast, you had to pay an additional licence fee for that podcast, which got pretty expensive pretty fast. And I don't know, I think it may be it was on a Facebook group or somewhere that I I learned about Captivating. They had like, it fit my needs. It was unlimited podcast, unlimited, no upload limits, etc. So it really fits my needs. So I became a customer. I'm going to say 2018, not 2019. They came up with beta 2019, so maybe even a little bit later, maybe even early 2020 when I talked to them, to Captivate, and then I just sort of got to know the team. I was a very active member of their private Facebook group for their customers, I guess I should say our customers now. And I was just always helping people out with questions because I'd been going through that anyway, so I knew the answer to it. So when they posted a position that spoke to that. I thought, you know, I'm going to reach out to Mark and see, I throw my name in the hat and here I am. Speaker 3 00:05:23 I kind of love going through all the Facebook groups and seeing all the questions I think we get a lot of them are the same. A lot of them are, how do I get more downloads? What's your standard answer when somebody asks, how do I get more downloads on my podcast? Speaker 4 00:05:38 I think that's often the wrong question because downloads, yeah, that's a great starting point for getting listeners. You can't have a listener without a download, but a download may never be listened to. It's a catch 22 situation. I can auto download from Apple podcasts, I may never go back to that, but it cancelled the download. So it gives me the podcaster, a false sense of security. So it's more about, well, why do you want X amount of downloads? Is it to attract sponsors? Is it to attract advertisers? Is it to make you feel good? What's your end goal to these downloads? And then why does it matter so much? So if it's the attract sponsors? Well, downloads is the wrong question. You need to be looking at the engagement point of view and how engaged are the listeners of these downloads? So I always like advise people to be wary of just thinking about downloads alone, but go beyond that. Thinking back to your marketing question and what does the end goal look like? So you got to download, what does that mean? Does that mean that helps you reach your revenue? Great. But how are you going to make that download turn into that? So always have the goal of what the download means to you. Speaker 3 00:06:39 If you could wave your magic wand and make one big podcast mistake go away for everybody who was starting out, what would it be? Speaker 4 00:06:48 It would probably be editing. I hate editing. I've got better at it. I appreciate it. Now, I appreciate the value of editing, obviously, but it's not my favourite party podcasting. And so many people get told by, you know, podcasting leaders, experts, or whatever you want to call them, that, you know, don't worry about the editing. Be yourself, be natural. Your audience will love it. The audiences won't love mouth clicks, they won't love lots of arms, they won't love the dog barking through next door's neighbour. Even if your content is awesome, joe Rogan may be the most popular podcast in the world. I don't think he'd get away with having really crappy audio at some stage that would impact. So I would always say think about editing and how you can do it. You don't have to be like a super highly produced editor, but just make it clean. Clean it up and make the levels the sound the same level. Keep your audio the same level. There's nothing worse than listen to your podcast and the ad comes in and it's five times louder than the audio file. Speaker 3 00:07:43 So that brings up dynamic audio insertion because you were just talking about ads that would come into a show. What are some of the best ways that one can use dynamic audio insertion to really boost their podcast? Speaker 4 00:07:54 Make it really relevant to the audience? I mean, there's a lot of ways you can use dynamic audio insertion, dynamic content insertion, whatever you want to call it, make it really, really relevant to the audience. A lot of people think of dynamic audio as an ad. So I'm going to do a preroll ad from a sponsor and then I'm into my show. Or a midroll ad all about sponsor and that's great. But if the sponsor or the advertiser or the dynamic insertion doesn't match the topic of the episode or your show or your audience, there's that disconnect and you're going to lose your listeners. And then these all important downloads you mentioned earlier, they're going to go away. So think of your audience. Let's say a seasonal message. We've just finished Christmas new Year. If you celebrate Christmas, for example. So why don't you put a little jingle at the start of all your episodes, hey, happy holidays. Whatever you're celebrating, I hope you have a safe one and we'll see you in 2023, something like that. It's a nice little seasonal message. If you're a news podcast, if something's happened, can you use dynamic content to update a story that is now out of date? Because new evidence has come to light of a criminal case, for example. So there's lots of ways that you can keep it relevant and live and active as opposed to just advertisements. Speaker 3 00:09:01 You sound great. You got a roadcaster that I believe might be new at your end. It sounds great, but what would you suggest for somebody who's starting out as a first microphone, perhaps? Speaker 4 00:09:12 Yeah, first microphone. You don't need to spend a lot. The main thing I always tell people is try treat your room first and make that sound good. So that means if you've got a lot of hard walls, if you're in your bedroom or spare room or whatever, and you got a lot of hard surfaces, try treat them first or maybe cushions, moving blankets, anything like that, that dead ends, that sound from a very hard surface. That's a great place to start. Doesn't matter if you've got like a $50 mic or a $500 mic, if you've got a bad environment, it's going to suffer. But yeah, I just started out, I started out originally with Snowball Ice, which is like a tiny little mic, picks up every noise in the room. And you can tell by my early episodes that I use that mic. But get a great mic, like a Samsung QTU or an ATR 200, 100 X. They're dynamic mics. They're a USB and XLR. So you can plug that mic straight into your laptop and start recording right away. Use a free recording programme like Garage Band or Audacity. So you've got very low output to start and you can use a free podcast to get your podcast up and running. So very little output because I don't want people to spend money and then find they don't like enjoy podcasting. So start off low, work to your budget and then build from there. Speaker 3 00:10:20 One little suggestion that I have for people who do start out and they're not sure, maybe they want to continue the podcast past maybe two, three, four episodes just to get a few of them out there. It's okay to go and put your podcast up on Anchor and then when you say, okay, I'm really serious about this, then give you a call and move it over to Captivate and get the upgrade, as it were. What are some of the things on Captivate that any beginner would be excited about getting involved with Captivate for? Speaker 4 00:10:44 So one of the things, I mean, we've got a whole bunch of tools. Obviously you mentioned dynamic ad and session analytics are top notch. Obviously I'm biassed, but our analytics are top notch. We've got a whole suite of tools inside. It's easy distribution, but one of the easiest and the best things that we've got is our resources for education. So inside our dashboard we have the growth labs, which helps you. We've got a whole bunch of online courses and videos, helps you grow your podcast. We've got how to start your podcast. We've just launched a course on identifying the four key stoppers that stop people from launching a podcast, which one is you? And then we can help you from that. So I think you've got a great resource section. It's all been put together by passionate podcasters. Everyone in Captivate is a passionate podcaster. Mark here and Gary, myself, Sarah, everyone's. Passionate podcasters. So we know what's missing if you like, sometimes from the podcasting space when it comes to starting or being a new podcast. And we really want to make you a better podcaster. And that's why we give our tools on all plans. There's no hidden analytics or hidden upgrades hidden behind plans. Every podcast, all features from day one. Speaker 2 00:11:50 In just a second, more with Danny, including some of his thoughts about what lies ahead for podcasting in 2023. Also, I'm using a new transcription service and you can see how well it handled. My Canadian accent and Danny's Scottish accent@soundoffpodcast.com. Speaker 1 00:12:08 This Podcast supports Podcasting 20. If you like this show or getting value from it, hit the boost button now. If you don't have a boost button, you can get one now at new podcastapps.com. Speaker 3 00:12:21 So you're one of the catalysts along with James Cridland and Rob Greenley for encouraging me to get transcription for my podcast. Why do podcasters need transcription? Why should they have transcription for their podcast? Speaker 4 00:12:34 And that's a great question. Why should they the key one is accessibility. There's. I think I read a stat where it mentioned just in the US alone, I think 56% of adults are hard of hearing, so they will struggle on an audio on the podcast. It's why when you see an audiogram on Twitter that's been created for a new episode and the captions aren't there, that's missing a big chunk of audience. You should always prove transcripts on an audiogram, but it's all about accessibility. If I'm hard of hearing, but I want to enjoy a podcast just like anybody else, I've got the transcript, the text of that audio right in front of me. And depending on the player that you might have installed with the transcript, the words will follow along as have been spoken. So, first and foremost, accessibility. But it does help with SEO as well. The way that transcripts are put together, you've got these little nuggets that are hidden away deep in the transcript that search engine algorithms and AI can pull out and help listeners find your show. Speaker 3 00:13:28 So SEO and transcripts I find interesting because I see some people, they will just attach the transcript to the bottom of the blog post and then all of a sudden the blog post is a 15 minutes read and Google's going to mark that below the line. So what's the proper way to really sort of infuse the transcripts so we do get the best SEO? Speaker 4 00:13:47 Yeah, and my colleagues there would be far better to talk about that she's SEO through and through. But yeah, when you attach it like that, as you mentioned, you've got this huge, huge lantern. If you've got like a three hour podcast episode, that's going to be a long scroll for the transcripts. I'm a big fan of the embedded transcript players where it's still on page, but now you've got an embedded player by the transcript service, so your show notes are on the normal blog post and then underneath that you've got the embedded transcript player and that will play and scroll along with you. That saves a lot. I know a lot of people say, well, just link out to a PDF. But the problem is you're not making accessible because now you're forcing the hard of hearing and those with accessible issues to actually click another link just to access the transcripts. And don't even get me started on people that offer transcripts of the premium feature. Only people do that. People do that and they're proud of it and thinking, no thank you, I won't be listening to your show. But yeah, I just think when you're talking about accessibility and you say, well, this particular part of the audience has to pay to enjoy it like everybody else. No, not for me. Speaker 3 00:14:52 Sometimes I think it's old broadcast habits that come back because I remember you get to the end of the local talk show or the town hall meeting for a transcript of this episode, send 89 95 in a self addressed amped envelope and we'll send you it back. Speaker 4 00:15:07 Yeah. And maybe it's, you know, old school, you know, broadcasting or TV media people using it, but I just I don't see it as much now but when I see it, it's it's an annoyance for sure. Speaker 3 00:15:19 You're up in Huntsville, Ontario, which to me is cottage country. It's not far from Algonquin Park where I used to spend summers. How's the internet up there? Speaker 4 00:15:28 You know what, it's pretty good. We're on Hub with Kojiko at the moment, so it's not like a massive plan, but we've got 150 meg downloads. Speed Lakeland, who's our main provider up here, they are installing fibre outside our house next spring. Actually this spring 22 and three in a year. So that would be like 1 TB or whatever. It's going to be crazy fast, so it's actually pretty good. They're investing a lot of money in it, but as you get further out, we are not too bad. We're sort of in the middle of a Huntsville and Bryce Bridge which is like two large towns in Muskoka, so we're kind of feeding off their internet. Speaker 3 00:16:02 Can you share some of the podcasting 2.0 initiatives that you're banding about the group between you, Mark and Sarah? Speaker 4 00:16:09 Yes. So we already we support officer, we support transcripts, we support the people tag. We're also looking Mark and Kieran who are the Cofounders, they've been speaking to Adam and Dave pretty much since the beginning of podcast and 2.0 and they're always in a lot of contact. We always look at the tags that will make sense for our users or customers. We could add all the tags right away, but we feel that some they'll hinder the users. So I mean, there's a lot of talk obviously about value for value. That's one that we get asked a lot about taxonomy. We included the taxonomy in their podcast taxonomy. So there's a lot of tags that we're looking at, but it has to make sense for A, our roadmap and B obviously our users. Speaker 3 00:16:48 You'd be excited to know that if you listen to this podcast on the Fountain app, you can send us some satoshi's right now. Speaker 4 00:16:55 There you go. And that's the funny thing. I launched the new podcast just at the beginning of last month. It's like a really short, fun podcast and it's main audience is on Fountain. My main audience has always been like Apple, Spotify and for whatever reason Fountain and it has nothing to do I find a lot of podcasts on Fountain are value or bitcoin, et cetera, has nothing to do with them. So I was surprised to see that come through. Speaker 3 00:17:17 I saw you mentioned in a blog post about your podcast taking a small hiatus because the people who wanted to be on your podcast were really all about pitching themselves. So can you talk a little bit about the poor form, about pitching yourself and really do us all a favour, that if people are going to be pitching themselves to be on a podcast, maybe don't or do it better. Speaker 4 00:17:35 Yeah. And I think it's nice because it shows validation of what you're doing with your podcast, which is good, but it's not so good because now, like you mentioned, I took a hiatus with that one because I was just tired of just getting pitched by people that want to come on and speak about the books or their courses, et cetera. Not speak about their experiences, which could help my listeners, because that's really why you want to guess on. It's all about their experience, their story, and how that can help your listeners based on whatever topic your podcast is about. So I'm a big fan, if you're going to pitch yourself to your podcast, a know what the podcast is about. I got a podcast, most of my podcasts are about the podcast in space, and I got a pitch about someone that wanted to talk about feminine products and I thought, that's interesting. I'm not sure, maybe my wife could come on as a guest host or something. So I think sometimes a lot of people see podcasting. They've been told at podcasting is this multi billion dollar industry, it's growing all the time. It's a great way to get exposure as a guest. So pitch all the podcasts and they don't listen to the show, they just see someone speaks about podcasts online or the podcast appears popular or whatever, because they see people sharing it or recommending it, et cetera. So, yeah, just do your homework and don't be a dick when you pitch. Yes, you want exposure for yourself. That's what the podcaster will do. He or she will make sure that their audience is exposed to you and afterwards promote the heck out of you and your episode. So that's going to come. You don't have to sell you or yourself. When you're on, what do you tell. Speaker 3 00:19:05 People who ask if their podcast should be on video? Speaker 4 00:19:10 I think if it makes sense for them, by all means. I know people say, well, video is replacing audio. I don't subscribe to that. I think there's space for both. I only listen to audio podcasts if I do have video on it in the background, I'm not even aware it's on it's probably because it's autoplay on my phone or something. But, yeah, if you're going to do it, by all means do it. And to your point, Matt, you were on about it earlier. Experiment first and see if you like it, and then if you do, go fullto. So it takes a lot to podcast, you know what it takes to research, outline a guest, an interview, do the editing, etc. And that's twice as much again when you're looking at video, if you're going to offer both versions. So, yeah, by all means if you're interested in video. But be wary that it's not just a matter of getting an iPhone camera, sticking it on and then uploading it to YouTube and you're going to make a million dollars because it's just not going to happen. So, yeah, there's space for everything and videos, your preference, go for it. Speaker 3 00:20:04 Previous years, when it came to making podcast predictions, between 2018 and 2022, with a pandemic in there, it seemed to be a little bit more obvious when we were making our podcast predictions for the year. But I I feel that 2023, it's harder. Do you have any podcast predictions that you want to take a stab at? Speaker 4 00:20:22 Well, I think the interesting thing, I just saw a report about how 2023 advertising budgets are being pulled back. Advertisements might be like a huge boom, obviously, for podcasting. In 2022 was an amazing year for advertisers and advertising and podcasters, lots of revenue for all creators. But now Spotify is pulling back with exclusive shows. Amazon's just, I think, cancelled a $10 million deal with a show that we're going to do. Companies are letting people go. I think what's happening is we're getting to that point now where it's plateauing and now you really have to be doing something good, or you really have to be doing something different, or you really have to be offering something that not a lot of others are offering when it comes to advertising monetization, et cetera. So I think we're going to see more of that what's the word? Speaker 3 00:21:07 Attrition. Speaker 4 00:21:08 Yeah, more of that attrition. Thank you. More of that attrition where it's not going to be the Wild West now, where it's going to be money thrown all over the place. And I think, like spotify. They just lost Brenny Brown. Her podcast is no longer exclusive. Joe Rogan is coming up at the end of his contract, I think, so he might go. So I think it's going to be interesting to see exclusives. If that's going to be the case, I think maybe exclusives are going to be less now and companies like Spotify, like Amazon, like Wandering, etc. May be looking for more indie creators, mid tier indie creators that they can bring on and be, you know, not so much exclusive, because I think that's hurt. So I think we'll see less exclusive, but bring the mid to the creators on that are building a really solid audience as opposed to the big names and all the money that's been thrown out there. Speaker 3 00:21:53 I don't know that we necessarily needed a recession to find out that being exclusive really isn't worth it. I know Joe Rogan got a hundred million dollars, but I think he was underpaid. I think he probably would have done better just staying where he was. Is going exclusive really not all that big a deal? Speaker 4 00:22:12 I put a piece up on substance, but I referred back to the original piece where they were talking about that very thing and how it's one of the reasons some of the big studios let people go, because the exclusive approach didn't pan out as well as they thought it was going to. And nobody was like all the listeners that they were expecting to come over to the exclusive side didn't follow. There's a lot of people for their own reasons, don't like Spotify. There's a lot of people don't like YouTube, et cetera. So if you're exclusive to a channel that people don't like, that's going to cause a problem no matter how big a name you are. The Obamas, they've moved away because the Obama's complained about their listener drop off when they went exclusive. So now they're opened up to all platforms again. So I think it makes sense from the hope that you want to keep a high visibility artist on your platform and that's the only way you can access that. And then if you charge X amount of dollars to access that, obviously that's incoming revenue to you as a platform. But it doesn't make sense, as you mentioned, if the exclusivity means that listener base drops off because now the advertisers aren't going to pay as much revenue because the listeners aren't there. So it's that weird catch 22 situation. Speaker 3 00:23:20 Are we going to be able to see you on the road this year? Speaker 4 00:23:24 I think so. I'm going actually on my Podcamp Toronto next month. Mark and Kieran are at Podfest in Florida. Speaker 3 00:23:32 Pod Festive. End of the month in Orlando. Speaker 4 00:23:35 Yeah. So yeah, end of the month. And then I believe we're going to what's one that just happened? Speaker 3 00:23:40 Podcast movement. Speaker 4 00:23:42 Podcast movement. Why could I not remember that? That's my, my brain fog. You know what people talk about long coordinate and that and I firmly believe it. I'm getting bad with brain fog. But yeah, I believe we're going to the podcast movement. Like the sort of spring summer one evolutions in Vegas. Yeah. So I think the Captivate team is going there. I'm hoping we'll get out and we'll see how it goes. Speaker 3 00:24:03 Danny, thanks so much for joining me on the podcast to tell me about your podcast story. And I'd say welcome to Canada, but you've been here long enough. Speaker 4 00:24:10 Yeah, I feel like I'm an honorary Canadian now. I still would get my citizenship, but I might go for that this year. Speaker 1 00:24:17 We'll see the the Sound Off podcast, written and hosted by Matt Kundal, produced by Evan Surminski, social media by Courtney Krebsbach. Another great creation from the sound of media company. There's always more@soundoffpodcast.com. Review: Avrio: Feature-Rich, Except Where It Counts Written By: Aidan Glassey As a part of my role at The Soundoff Podcast Network, I handle the transcription of most of our shows. Until very recently, I had been using Poddin.io, but as you may have heard in this episode, they’ve recently shut down. This meant we had to find a new transcription service, and after digging through the mountains of paid services out there (and believe me, there are more than a handful to choose from), we landed on Avrio.com. While searching, Matt asked me for a short list of features I’d like to see from a transcription service. I told him I was mostly looking for something that improved on Poddin’s shortcomings, as while Poddin was great in a lot of ways, it also made me tear my hair out on more than one occasion. And to its credit, Avrio does indeed fix many of Poddin’s problems- at the expense of adding a few of its own. Let’s start with the good. First of all, Avrio has a positively stacked feature list. The basics are there, like automatic speaker separation, playback syncing so you never lose your place while editing, video integration, and a search feature in case it’s repeatedly transcribed a word wrong throughout the document. These are all things you’d normally expect from any transcription service, but the selling point of Avrio is the ways it goes above and beyond. It automatically detects questions in the transcript and places markers on them, which makes it extremely easy to pinpoint highlights of an interview or podcast. If you’ve got a video component, you can highlight sections and export them, with transcription included, right from the website with no additional work required. You can adjust playback speed, so if you have a particularly slow talker (or you just have ADHD and a need for speed like I do), you don’t need to wait for them to drag themselves through every sentence. These are some of the highlights for me, but the list goes on. And here I have to compare it to Poddin directly, as well as several other transcriptions I’ve tried to use- compared to a lot of its competition, Avrio feels fast. With Poddin, I would almost always have to wait upwards of an hour for it to save the changes I’d made to the transcript. If I refreshed the page, all my progress would be lost to the void, and there was no manual save feature. Autosave only. Avrio, on the other hand, seems to save instantaneously. I’ve been using it for several days now, and not had a single issue with my work not being saved. There’s no lag on the site at all, either, which is a blessing. It also does a pretty great job of the actual transcription part. It seems to be mostly bang-on with picking up words accurately, even with varying accents. Danny’s Scottish accent didn’t give it much trouble, except on words where the Scottish change the vowel sounds, like “cannot” becoming “can-n’y.” It seems to struggle a bit with the placement of punctuation, but if you can find me a transcription service that doesn’t, I’ll kiss you on the mouth. Overall, everything feels buttery smooth… Except, unfortunately, the actual editing process. Yes, we’ve reached the cons section. While Avrio does nail a lot of high-level features, it seems like they come at the expense of a bit of basic usability. Despite the near-instant load speed of the webpage, editing can be quite tedious, largely thanks to the way it’s laid out: You can only edit one word at a time. Let me say that again. In a transcription service, where you are looking at paragraphs of text at a time, you have to manually select each individual word and tweak it, then press Enter, then move on to the next word. Now, it’s not quite as bad as it sounds. The slick UI design of the website makes this pretty intuitive, and in reality it’s only one or two extra keystrokes compared to other services, but it did still slow me down enough in my editing to be worth noting. One or two extra keystrokes per word will add up when you’re working on an hour-long podcast. There’s a difference, however, between slowing down your editing, and missing a key editing feature altogether. This is by far the biggest gripe I have with Avrio, and you may even be able to notice it in the recent transcripts: As far as I can tell, you cannot delete words. At all. When you want to make a change to the transcript, you must select an individual word. It will then bring up a text box containing that word, with a 30-character limit. It will not let you exit this text box if it is empty, and there is no other way to edit the transcript. I spent quite a bit of time digging around the site, because I couldn’t believe they would have missed something like this, but from everything I tried, the only way to remove a word is to replace it with a space. For example, if a speaker says “anyway,” but Avrio mis-transcribes it into “In a way,” you can change “In,” “a,” or “way” to “anyway,” but you cannot remove the other two words. You can only replace them with a space. So this example would go from, “I thought that was interesting, but in a way.” To, “I thought that was interesting, but anyway.” It’s not the end of the world, but it’s seriously jarring to see in the midst of a paragraph, and it seems like a colossal oversight to not have this feature present. I sincerely hope this is changed in the future. Overall, it seems like Avrio’s developers focused too much on having a huge list of high-end features, and missed out on really nailing down the basics of editing. With that said, those high-end features are both impressive and useful, and I do think Avrio surpasses Poddin and many other transcription services because of their inclusion. The website’s loading and saving speed cannot be understated either. While the one-word-at-a-time editing system is a bit clunky, it’s something you can get used to, and I don’t imagine they could sacrifice it while maintaining the speed of the website, so it’s a worthwhile tradeoff. If they do someday add the ability to delete words properly, Avrio will be an industry-leader, but for now it remains simply adequate. If its pros appeal to you, then I’d recommend it highly, but if you don’t feel as though you need or want the tools it provides, I believe you can find better elsewhere.

It's that time of year again. Chestnuts are roasting on open fires, homes are lit up like the Las Vegas strip, presents are under trees, and I'm sitting down with my good friend Terry DiMonte for the 7th annual Very Terry Christmas. It's our favourite tradition, especially since we no longer live close enough to go out for drinks together. Although, if I'm honest, the theme of this episode is less Christmassy and more grumpy. What begins as nostalgia for the good old days- Christmas in Montreal, great food, great friends, and great radio- slowly turns into wondering what happened to all that great stuff. I don't know if age turns everyone into a Scrooge, but I think it's starting to have that effect on Terry and I. Especially when it comes to the food. We talk a lot about food. We even spend a bit of time talking about the weather. I know. But don't get the wrong idea, because there are still some incredibly funny and interesting stories tucked away in here. Guys with Terry's experience in broadcasting have no shortage of those. That's why I bring him back every year- well, that and the fact that he's one of the best friends I've got. And clearly age hasn't slowed him down too much, because he's still doing his annual discussions with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, which you can listen to here: I hope you enjoy the seventh edition of A Very Terry Christmas, and from everyone here at the Soundoff Podcast Network, we hope you have a Merry Christmas and a happy New Year. Transcript: Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:13 Every year, Terry DiMonte and I get together for some Christmas cheer and a podcast episode. You see, Terry loves Christmas, and our get-togethers are filled with fun, Christmas drink, and innocuous frolic and chatter. This year we can't get together in person, so this podcast will represent the frolic and chatter. While we are recording this from our homes in Winnipeg and the Fraser Valley of British Columbia, Montreal is our home, and we always speak passionately about it. So prepare yourself for discussion about that, and food, the weather radio, our lives, the people in our lives, and everything else that was top of mind for us when we recorded this. A small word to the wise that our language gets a little un-Christmaslike. So if you're just firing up a new device that you got under the Christmas tree, make sure the AirPods are connected, and that the ears of the young cannot hear the 7th installment of A Very Terry Christmas. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:01:10 Every year I drive my wife crazy. I go to Walmart and I see what the latest goofy Christmas kitschy animated thing is. And this year it's Snoopy. He dances, his ears flap. And I just figured because we were doing the Christmas Day thing- and when my wife Jess listens to this podcast, she's going to say, oh, for Christ's sake. Hi, Matt. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:50 Where is Jess? Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:01:52 She's at work. She's gone to the Death Star. She's gotta go to the office. I think it's twice a week, three times a week, something like that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:59 In past episodes, we would always make Star Wars references to refer to going to work at a radio station, but here we are. Now, we've continued that, but now we're talking about other people reporting to the Death Star. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:02:10 Yeah, I have to say, I was talking with a buddy of mine a couple of weeks ago. I sure don't miss all of the bullshit that comes with it. I must admit- somebody asked me about doing a radio show. I must admit I do miss it. And because I was pushed out, I didn't think much of it. And I said that's enough. I'm old enough, tired of getting out of bed. And that's true, all of that. I don't miss getting out of bed, and I don't miss, you know, the politics and the yelling and the corporate nonsense, and you and I are both on the same page. I don't want to spend the whole podcast talking about what a mess the corporations have made of the broadcast industry in this country, but what a mess the corporations have made of the broadcast industry in this country. Jesus Christ. I moved to British Columbia and I live in the lower mainland, and I was kind of excited because we- I remember when, you know, in what I considered the heyday, like in the 80's and the 90's, if you drove from, say, Montreal, to Toronto. You know, you'd get to Brockville and you'd think, oh, let's listen to what they're doing. And get to Kingston and you think, let's listen to what they're doing. Or if you drove from Winnipeg to Kenora, when you got to Kenora, you got the little radio station in Kenora that was on AM and on FM, and it was all local, and it played some cool records that other people didn't play. When you drove the other direction from Winnipeg and you ended up in Moose Jaw, you could catch CHAB and hear all the young broadcasters coming up, all of that old reminiscing radio guy stuff. That's all gone. I mean, it's all gone. And I thought when I got to Vancouver, I thought, this is a big radio market. This will be interesting. It is not. As a matter of fact, one of the stations, and I feel bad for them, 1130 News, I think they're owned by Rogers. It's just staffed with children from the local college. And "The war in the Ukraine continues in Kiev," it's really- anyway, all that to say, I miss having a connection with an audience and I missed doing a radio show. The podcast that Ted and I do helps with that a little bit. And I don't know why I got on this tact, but we started to talk about something and a buddy of mine said, do you miss it? And I said, yeah, I do. I actually missed the whole idea of putting together a radio program and connecting with an audience and having a platform to do some good things. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:04:34 Well, you're doing it right now with the podcast. But what I would say is that when you went into a radio station, there were people in the station, but the B-part of that is the audience. You were creating a shared experience between like six and nine every morning. That would be a shared experience. And when you do it in podcast form, people will just listen to it whenever, and you don't get any feedback, and there's no blinking phone lights, and there's- Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:04:57 What's missing is, and people who are on the radio will understand this, it's the magic of the medium. There's a magic. I know I sound like a lunatic, but there is, there's a magic to when your finger touches the mic button and you know the curtain has gone up, and whatever you say carries out over the airwaves. There's a magic and an excitement to that that podcasts certainly don't replace. But I've been having an awful lot of fun with the podcast, and I was surprised that you wanted to do another one of these. Does anybody care about this anymore? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:05:30 This particular show? Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:05:32 Yes, this particular show. The Christmas podcast with old, washed up Terry DiMonte. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:05:39 Actually, this could very well be the show now, but when you do something long enough and, you know, sometimes it's about showing up and being consistent. And if we didn't do this episode, we would get a note from Eli Curry who was in Sweden last year. He may or may not still be there. He's the first one to download this thing when it goes out, and he looks forward to this on Christmas morning. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:06:03 That's nice. I like that. Merry Christmas, Eli. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:06:06 And a lot of people don't want to do podcasts over Christmas, because they figure no one's listening, or they want to stop their workflow, and all that's fine, but why not? There's new devices that are being opened and started up this morning. So why can't we be their very first podcast listen? Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:06:22 Well, I know you're king of the podcast now, and you're immersed deeply in it. And your take on the releasing of podcasts on Christmas Day is? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:06:22 Do it. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:06:22 Do it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:06:33 Look what we started. This is the 7th one we've done, and there are people out there who rely on this on Christmas morning who, if we didn't do it, we would hear from people. It's like my grandmother with the drink. Oh, no, it was a present. You got her a present and she said, you didn't need to get me a present. And then you didn't get her a present one year. And she says, I never got a present from you. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:06:58 Oh, God bless your grandmother. Oh, boy, you guys must miss her, because I do. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:07:02 Oh, yeah. Every day, 06:00, with the two things of water and two ice cubes. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:07:09 It's funny because she is still with us, because I think about her often and I think about her- in the new place in BC we got an old Hollywood style booze cart, the kind of thing that Carrie Grant would reach for the selzer bottle. One of those. And we have one of those in the house. And every time I walk by it, I think about it. And what we're talking about is, I became friends with Matt's grandmother over the last years of her life, and would always pop by around Christmas time and other times, too. Sometimes I would get invited over just for a cocktail before dinner, and your grandmother had one of those carts. So whenever I walk by the cart, I think of her, and I often think of what she would say and what she would do. And I often think, when Jess and I are considering having a drink, and I'll say to Jess, we're not farmers. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:08:04 Yeah, I think once you wanted to start at 5:58 and pour the drinks, she wouldn't let you start till six. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:08:11 I think I wanted to come over, you know, because I was visiting. I think I was visiting from Calgary one year, and I had a pretty busy day of visits. And I said, Is it okay if I drop by around 05:00? And I think she said five? We're not farmers. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:08:27 What are you doing for Christmas this year? Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:08:29 Well, this year on Christmas, it's a little different. And by design, as a lot of people who have relatives in other cities will understand. When my wife and I go home for Christmas, her family is in the Laurentians. My family is all now in Arnprior, Ontario, and we have to fly to Montreal or Toronto, rent a car and then split up because we don't have the time. So she goes to her family, I go to my family. It gets a little complicated, and as Jess pointed out to me, probably in the middle of the summer, she said, we've never spent Christmas together, which is true, and between pandemic and snowstorms and whatever, she's been with her family or- one year was awful. I can't remember exactly what happened, but she was in the apartment in Griffintown and I was with my family in Cornwall and she ended up spending most of Christmas alone. Anyway. She said, this year, you know what, I want a Christmas for us, just for us. And I said, yeah, you're right. And also, we weren't crazy about the travel. The travel at this time of the year. Boy, oh boy. You have to deal with what's happening with airlines and airports and everything else in these last couple of years. Anyway, long story short, we decided it was just Christmas with us, so it's just going to be my wife and me today, as you're listening to this, and there'll be FaceTimes with the family, and we're going to open presents and do our own Christmas this year. And it'll be different and it'll be tough on our families. But we thought, having been together for over five years now, it was time we had a Christmas together. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:10:13 I will be in Montreal, and I will let you know how the airlines made out, and the Uber and the construction of Montreal and everything else. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:10:20 Will you be with your mum this year? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:10:23 Yes. I called her and I asked if I was invited and I got shrieked back at, you're always invited. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:10:28 Let me ask you something. I haven't spoken to your mum in a number of years and that's shame on me, and I owe her a letter. Is she becoming more and more like your grandmother as she gets older? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:10:40 Yeah. I mean, it was inevitable, right? Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:10:42 Oh, yeah. That must be fantastic, though. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:10:45 Yeah. But I got to watch my mum react when my grandmother got a little older and my mother would come to me and say, that never used to be like that. And now I'm going to tell my kids, that never used to be like that. She turned 75 this year. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:11:01 I was just about to say, God love her, didn't she just turn 75? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:11:05 So we all went in on October 20-something, to have a little get together, and she was none too happy to see us. It was, I think a week before, it was Jackie. And Jackie is a longtime family, you know, friend, used to work with us as a nanny for Henry and Willie, for anybody who this is going to be tough to explain. My mum had me at 22. I'm the oldest. I was born in 1970. There were three of us, and then there's this little gap and then these two other kids show up a little bit later. So here I am, I'm 17 years older than William, who is the youngest. So my mum had a baby at 22 and then she had another one later at 39, but people thought she was crazy for having it at 39, but I think she's nuts for having one at 22. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:11:53 Times were different back then that's, you know, it's like my mum and dad, they were they were married at 20 and had me at 21. It's, you know, largely unthinkable today and I- you know, there's a real richness to that story, I think, about your family and Jackie coming along to help with, you know, the two younger arrivals. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:12:12 Right around the same time that I'm off to university. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:12:15 Yeah. And sort of becoming a member of the family. And for people who don't know, your mum is not one for celebrations and fusses. She doesn't like to be the center of attention. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:12:26 So Jackie announced that she was coming a week before and then I got an email and we all got an email saying, when are you coming to surprise me? So worst surprise party ever. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:12:40 So no one yelled Surprise, I guess. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:12:42 That's right. Jackie, by the way, was coming from Scotland, and that's where she lives. And the rest of us came from across the country, except for my brother, who lives in Montreal, and my sister came up from Costa Rica and we all got together in October, and I guess most of us will be back for Christmas. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:12:58 You know, there's a little bit of jealousy on my part when I think about the house, because you go back to the house that basically you grew up in, and this is rare, especially in English Montreal, this is very rare, that your family is still in the home you grew up in. So the rooms are all familiar. The Christmas tree is in the same place, in the same part of the living room. There's no hockey equipment scattered at the door. But when you walk into that house, it's awash in memories of your childhood. And even for me, there's a lot of memories for me in that house over the course of the years of my friendship with you and the rest of your siblings. Is that a thing for you when you go back? I know you're not a sentimental guy, but are you watching memories when you open that big wooden door and it creaks and you walk in the house? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:13:53 Or don't forget the three dogs that will bark at you the minute you open up the door. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:13:57 Well, as soon as you step on the landing, I think. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:14:01 Yeah, so when you describe it like that. I just realized I don't really know any other Christmas and I've done that. I have spent Christmas away. Did one in Winnipeg, and I did one memorable Christmas in 1997 in Edmonton when there were where there was no snow. It was strange. It was like 17 degrees on Christmas Day and I was hitting golf balls, just so I could say I hit golf balls in 1997 at 17 degrees in Edmonton. But I'll even take that one step further about that house. And so we had a cocktail party for my mom for her birthday, invited a number of her friends, which included Stephen Molson. That house has only had two owners, and the original owner was Stephen Molson's family, or father, who had it. And so they've got stories of the house and we shared stories of the house, and he was back in the house telling us stories. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:14:50 That's really cool. Like I said, especially for people who know the politics of Montreal, a lot of English families left over the years. So it would be really cool if my family could gather at our old house on Granger Street in Pierrefall. But my you know, my parents left in in the 70s right after Levec took office. And there are a lot of families in Calgary and BC and other parts of Alberta and Winnipeg, all across the country who aren't in the same house. And I am a sentimental guy. I'm a weepy italian. And I think there's something special about sitting in that living room at your mom's house with that tree in the same place that it's always been with siblings and now for her grandchildren and stuff. It must be pretty cool. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:15:35 Yeah, it is. I think for me, though, I look at the friends and places where we have drinks, where's Terry living. Can we go and get our Christmas drink? Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:15:44 Yeah, I missed that because that was a bit of a tradition, too, where you and the boys and Avery would drop by the house in NDG before you headed back to your mom's house. And I missed that. And that's a consequence of me moving. There are a lot of good things about moving, a lot of bad things about moving. And we're working through that now that we've been out here for a year and a half. There are some things we love and some things we don't love very much, and there's a lot of things we miss. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:16:11 I kind of feel like you haven't left Montreal, though, with the podcast that you're doing. You've got a radio show that does reach in Montreal once a week with Ted. I feel as though you're still in the market and still a part of Montreal in the fabric. Your picture still sits on the side of the Montreal General Hospital. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:16:30 Is it still up there? Yeah, I think it's because it's too expensive to take down. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:16:36 But yeah, even though you've left I mean, it's not like when you left in 2008 and you moved to Calgary, and the only way to get you back to Montreal was to have you co host or host a noontime show on Q 92, which was voice tracked in. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:16:52 Yeah, it's funny you mentioned that because my wife and I were having a discussion about this after I was, quote, unquote, retired, and I think we may have talked about this last year. It takes a while to unwind from that and to find your way and get your feet under you after you've been doing something for as long as I did. And to be sort of, in a celebratory way, escorted out. It was a celebration, but it was also, your services won't be required anymore. It took a while for me to find my feet under me. What do I do? And at one point I said to Jess, no one's going to give a shit. There's no point in doing any of this. I'm gone. I'm off the air. And she said, terror. It's 2022 with social media and a podcast. You're never gone. You're never really gone. She said, Maybe not as big a force as you were with a morning radio chair, but she said, even that platform is diminishing in stature. And she said, between Twitter and Facebook and podcasts and some fun with Ted on a Saturday morning, you haven't gone anywhere. And it took a while for that to dawn on me. That's very true. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:18:05 How would you like to have that on your permanent record? Terry's gone nowhere. Hasn't gone anywhere. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:18:13 Yeah, I guess that's not a great I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. And a couple of friends have razzed me about moving, saying you should have never left the city. Misses you, miss aspects of the city, blah, blah, blah. But I'm not looking to go back to work full time. But you're absolutely right. Ted and I have some fun at the little radio station in Hudson. We've got some businesses who are still loyal to us after all of these years. The folks from Sun Youth have asked me to be part of their fundraising campaign in the new Year. And then there's the podcast, which I like to fly in and sit across from Ted to do those podcasts. But you know this. It's like every other Montreal, or all the Montreal ex Montrealis who live across the country. They're a pain in the ass because all they do is talk about Montreal. Yeah. Smoke meat bagels. Yeah, I know. Shut up. I've heard all the little stories before. It's one of those things when you live in that city, it's such a giant pain in the ass on so many levels. And when you leave that city and you're out of that city, you realize all of the good that's there and all of the things that you left. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:19:22 Behind when Avery and I go to Montreal. She insists on making stops at St. Vidar bagel to pick up four dozen bagels. And then eventually we realized we don't even get through the four dozen bagels and we get back to Winnipeg. So we stop, we cut back, we just get like one dozen now. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:19:39 Yeah, it's part of the ritual. Friend of mine, this is how long I've known my buddy Doug Moore. We were friends in Cub Scouts when we were, I think, eight years old. And he lives in the United States now, and he's bringing his two almost grown daughters to Montreal at Christmas time, and I can't be there to squire them around or point them in the right direction. And he asked me for a little bit of a guidance for a tour, you know, like he wanted to take them to walk down St. Denis. And I think St. Denis is over. It's been screwed by construction and everything else in a lot of places of clothes, so I'm going to steer him away from that. And then when I started to put together what I thought should be a good itinerary for him, I realized after making the list, I realized it was like, well, you want to go to Chalet Barbecue and you want to go to Gemma Pizza and you want to take the girls to Bonkeys for puts in. I realized, like every Montreal or, I was building the tour around food, but those are classics. To your point about you and Avery, when you go to Montreal, you think, okay, I'm going to bring home some maple syrup. I got to stop and get some bagels. I'll get the guys at Snowden Deli to vacuum pack some smoked meat for me because I don't give a shit what anybody says. There's places out here who sell Montreal smoked meat, spotamate shows, and all of those things that have become, you know, staples of ex Montreal or visits are cliches because they're true. Like all other cliches, they're things that are very true. But to your point, you also realize you don't need 48 bagels for the plane ride home. Probably a dozen will do, but you get carried away because you know you're not going to get another St vietnam bagel once you get back to Winnipeg. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:21:22 So Avery and I, we have our stops in Montreal. Places will go for lunch. Lexpress is still one of the faves. And by the way, you're right about Saint Denis. I want to think it's coming back, but it looked a little better. But I don't know. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:21:36 Boy, they screwed that street up, man. In my opinion, they screwed that street up. That used to be one of my favorite streets, but now a lot of the business is bolted. I mean, I've been gone over a year, so maybe it's coming back, but a lot of the business is bolted. There's nowhere to park. Things have changed on St, and either way, things have changed on Santoro, I'd be more inclined now to send Doug and his family down to morale. From the corner where beauty is all the way down that street, it's a little more funky and fun. And when it's not a pedestrian mall like it is in the summer, you can actually park on the street if you can find a spot. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:22:12 I noticed that Pine was closed for like, a long time and I see it's reopening and it looks pretty nice, I got to say. We'll see how it works out. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:22:20 But. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:22:20 You're right about Mo Royale. It looks great. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:22:23 Yeah. And I think it's kind of an example of when you don't close the street for two years, what can happen, and when you don't become obsessed with removing all the parking from everywhere, it shows that everybody this is one thing, and I don't want to get on this because it's such a pain in the ass. The people that are anti car and pro bike are so vociferous and so anti car, it's hard to understand. But in a lot of places like Westmount, in Westmount on Green Avenue, which your grandmother used to refer to as not quite downtown, wasn't it where Hampstead thinks they're going? Downtown? That's right. Anyway, if you've been down Green Avenue, which used to be quite a commercial thoroughfare and had a lot of legendary places on it, they made it so there was a bike lane, a really decent sidewalk, picnic tables to sit at and parking. Everybody gets along. You want to take your car because you got a bad knee, take your car. You want to take the bus and go for a walk, sit at the picnic table and go for a walk. Why can't everybody sort of make room for everybody else? But that's not the way the world works. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:23:35 Shout out to Christina Smith, the Mayor of Westmount. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:23:38 Yes, I was really taken with it. I used to be on Green Avenue a lot and park your car, go into the bank, go into Nick's and have some of their famous food. That place has been there 100 years. And find parking in the lot. Find parking on the street. Ride your bike if you like, walk on the wide sidewalk if you like. There's room for everybody. And in a big city, that's what I think it should be. But I'm not running the city, so what do I know? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:24:08 We should have a disclaimer person come on and mention that the mayor of Westmont is my sister in law. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:24:13 By the way, how do you get into Lexpress? Apparently they've cut back their hours and staff and it's hard to get in there. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:24:20 It is very hard to get in there. However, here's what I did. Started walking at eleven in the morning. We were going to go shopping on St Denny, see what was there, and called them at 11:00 and said, do you have a table for four. And they said, yes, we do. I've got one for you. And I think one of the things of the pandemic that my restaurant friends are telling me is that a lot of people just cancel. They book and they have no bones about canceling things an hour before, 2 hours before. So a couple of hours before there's opportunity. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:24:53 One of the things that we don't like about Vancouver is we think the food is terrible. By and large, mostly chain restaurants. If you like to go to Cactus Club or Earls, you're in for a good time. And if you think the Olive Garden is Italian food, you got to be prepared to get in a lineup for it. So we really haven't found any great restaurant that we've really enjoyed except for one. And when we organized with a couple of new friends here to go to this restaurant, run by Quebec's, by the way, and just picked up a Michelin star, when you go to this restaurant, you have to get online and make reservations when they open up the tables. And when you make your reservation, you got to pay upfront. You have to pay $125 upfront for two people and then wine and tip and whatever else will be added the night you arrive. And because the restaurant is so small and because its menu is geared to the amount of people that sit at those tables every night, they don't want you canceling and they want you to make sure that you're going to arrive. And initially I was kind of horrified by it, but now I'm understanding it more. Restauranters are struggling with people who are just out and out assholes who make reservations and don't bother calling back. My wife and I two weeks ago made a reservation at Highs Steakhouse, downtown Vancouver, and at the last, at the last minute, about a half an hour beforehand, we realized we weren't we were going to be unable to go. And we called the restaurant to cancel. And the woman said, oh, my God, thank you so much for calling. Of course we made a reservation. We wanted to make sure that you knew we weren't coming. And she said, you wouldn't believe how many people don't bother and screw up our rhythm of service every night. So you make a restaurant reservation. Don't be a dick. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:26:50 You see there? I told you that was going to happen. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:26:54 We were going to talk about food. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:26:55 And that the language might veer off Christmas. By the way, we're not done talking about food. We might even transition to the weather. I know it's riveting. One thing we have not touched on in this episode is Terry's annual talk with the Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau. Well, that did take place, and you can access that on our web page@soundoffpodcast.com. Mary Anne Ivison (VO) 00:27:24 This podcast supports podcasting 2.0. If you like this show or getting value from it, hit the boost button now. If you don't have. A boost button. You can get one now at new podcast apps.com. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:27:37 So I wanted to bring this up about the rest of Canada and food because my first day in Edmonton, 90, 94, eric Samuels, who grew up in Montreal or whose dad actually I didn't know this was quite predominant on Radio Canada as a performer. But anyhow, Eric in Edmonton took me to lunch and we went to Earls and he said, okay, so here's your warning. The food is not good here. And what you're eating now at Earls is considered fine dining locally. And I think he mentioned it so that I wouldn't complain about it a week later. But to your point about the Olive Garden always being full, the same stuff goes on here in Winnipeg. This is what Canadians do when they dine. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:28:18 You know what? It's got to be a Quebec thing because if you're born and raised in Quebec, you're born and raised in a culture that has such a passion for much like mostly a European based culture, such a passion for food and the way food is prepared and expanded palates and interest in other cultures and blah, blah, blah. I always say that if in Quebec, whether you're going to Mazhome Buddh at the Ritz or you're going to Joe Beef or Liverpool or you're going to Lafleurs. Or your favorite steamed hot dog place, the people that are making you a steamed hot dog want you to have the best steamed hot dog that they could possibly prepare. And they prepare it with pride. And if they don't, they don't stay in business. So you become accustomed to places whether, like I said, whether or not you're going to pick any one of the amazing restaurants like Imposto or Gemma Pizza, or any of the highly regarded restaurants like Job B for Liverpool. Or if you're going for schwarma or souvlaki, as it's called in Quebec, or you're going to carry hot dog, or you're going to snowden deli. Those things are family run and run with such great pride. And chains don't have that. Chains just don't have that. And when I was in Winnipeg, my favorite restaurants were restaurants that I think are gone now. I know Colechus is gone. That was a Greek family that did shirt. They did burgers and fries. But Jesus Christ, no matter what you had at Colechus was prepared with unbelievable pride. There was always a family member hovering around where the food was being prepared. Alicia's Ukrainian Kitchen was another favorite of mine. Oscar's Deli was another favorite of mine. But. Now I guess it's Earls and Cactus Club. And Joey's. Joey's, there's another one. Joey's is big brown. Social house is another one out here. And they're all owned by the same chain. And I guess if that's what you grow up around, that's what you get used to and that's what you think is good again. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:30:29 Yeah. So all that's lost on me because you ever seen. The bill like $17 glasses of crappy wine, $24 plates of nothing. And I'm telling you, I'm more versed in eating in Barcelona than I am in Winnipeg or Calgary or Vancouver. People say, well, I'm going to Barcelona. I said, Well, I'll talk about the restaurants in that city, or Madrid, the same way we would talk about them in Montreal. Unique places, great prices, and something to talk about afterwards. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:31:01 You have found a couple of places in Winnipeg, though, haven't you? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:31:04 Yeah, you know, I guess one of the things is they come and they go. I found that, well, you know, this Winnipeg had the best restaurants, but I think it really petered out in 2015. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:31:14 Yeah, I don't know what happened, because when I know what happened, what happened skipped the dishes. Okay? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:31:21 So I think a lot of the food delivery services that popped up, whether it was uber eats or skipped the dishes, really began to suck the innovation out of the market. And so you created a culture of people who would sit inside and eat from styrofoam plates and whatnot. And I think it cut in on the margins, but it cut in on the innovation. And so I know listen, I know the city has some excellent chefs that I see what they need to do to stay in business. And often we will see very popular and smart chefs, not only in Winnipeg, but they'll default to pizza because the margins are super strong. Or they'll default the hamburgers because the margins are super strong. And I look at the menu and I go, this is what you're offering up? And that's not again, I'm not taking a dig at some of the people who have opened up restaurants because retail space is expensive, taxes are expensive. All of it is expensive. But, yeah, the innovation, I feel, sort of has dropped out of the market. Some places are not even open for lunch in Winnipeg. I mean, the Pandemic really put the boots to that. And again, even Tony Romas up on St. James street not open for lunch because they can't get staff. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:32:27 Well, this is another thing that we're trying to figure out, is somebody told me that's what happened to Lexpress, I think, was Leslie Chesterman told me this, that they had to back off their hours and close one of the days a week. And a lot of it is because of staff. They can't find staff. And yet this restaurant in Vancouver that I was trying to remember the name of, that I was telling you about, that's run by QuebecA, it's called St. Lawrence Restaurant. They found a staff, and every one of the staff speaks French. And I was like, Where did you guys all come from? Because it's so hard to find staff. I guess in a smaller restaurant, it makes a difference. But I've heard this staffing thing everywhere, like all over the place where I take my truck to get serviced. Airlines, restaurants, we can't find anybody to work. But what's everybody doing? I don't know. I mean, I'm retired, so I've got nothing to say about it. But Jesus. Where'd everybody go? And what's everybody doing? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:33:28 I've thought about this a lot. Where is everyone? I think a lot of people learn to work from home. I think that's a big deal. I think a lot of people manage to learn new things and realize that they don't need to work for minimum wage or tips at certain times. So again, you can curse and say, goddamn Internet, which would be appropriate. But when I go to hire and I'm interviewing people, I feel as though that these people are looking at me. They could easily be going and working the front desk at Deloitte, and I feel that they could do that for $40,000 a year, or they could work from home in their jammies and produce podcasts with me for $40,000 a year. And I think there's been this incredible leveling of the labor market when it comes to making choices. So I know some radio people, they'll open up a post, come work at our radio station. You'll work the midday show or the drive show or whatever, and they'll get a handful of applications. But if they put it out to work on a podcast and you can work from anywhere, they'll get ten times the number of applications. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:34:29 And by the way, I jokingly curse the Internet. You and I wouldn't be able to be doing this if there was no Internet. I couldn't do the radio show with Ted. If there was no internet. I couldn't do the podcast this season round without an Internet. And I get it. But sometimes Jess and I look at each other and say, goddamn social media ruined everything. That's because I have memories of when you needed a dime for a phone call or a quarter for a phone call. And I'm not suggesting that it was easier, but it certainly was simpler. It was a simpler time, for sure. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:35:04 Yeah. I just see the restaurant people are the ones who really struggle trying to get people to come in and work. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:35:11 Yeah. And it's sad because restaurants, I guess, because we're Montrealis, and there's people in other cultures, too, it's not just unique to Montreal, but restaurants were always really cool, you know, finding a new one, finding a favorite one. Those were fun. You know, you'd find a family who had a thing and they opened a small thing and they did things a certain way. And it's a big part of the Greek culture in Montreal. A lot of people don't know this. Greeks make the best pizzas in Montreal, and those places are all family run for me anyway. You know, like when when I ordered a pizza, I ordered a pizza from a place called B and M Pizza in NDG, which was at the top of the street where you went to school, royal Avenue. Yeah. And that's a Greek family run restaurant that just makes for me the best Montreal style pizza. It's not the kind of pizza you would get in Naples. Those kinds of places, those kinds of discoveries were always really fun and different neighborhoods would say no, our pizza is better because Pandelis does it better than BNM does or to Veris would do it better on the West Island in another place. And I never thought of skipped the dishes. And you're probably right, they probably skip the dishes. And these kitchens that they're setting up, that can be owl's burger joint is in a basement kitchen somewhere and shipping via the internet, that's not as much fun as going to Cosmos and having Tony yell at you while he makes a burger with a cigarette dangling over the grill. I found that more interesting. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:36:44 Well, no. What about the day it was a son, hey Terry, I cut my finger while he's baking the potatoes. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:36:53 I want to get a bandaid on that before you dive into my food. Best burger and home fries ever in the history of the world, though. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:37:01 We should start a podcast. It's called former Montreal or is bitching about Montreal. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:37:05 Well, I worry about that because my wife does that at her office in downtown Vancouver. She's working for a big corporation in downtown Vancouver that's in the broadcast industry and she's always complaining about the food here and stuff and talking about Montreal. And I said, one day someone's going to say to you, well, why don't you just fucking move back then? But those are our experiences, right? That's our bar. Our bar was set at a certain level because of where we grew up. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:37:38 It's tough to explain this to people, especially the time we had a PD from Ontario come in, so shout out to Bob Harris. And when it came time to going out for lunch with the record reps, I had to explain a bunch of things such as the lunch is going to be 3 hours, we're going to have a couple of bottles of wine and we're not going to talk about business. And the look on his face was I don't think I can do this or go you're going to have to handle all the record company lunches. And I did and it was great. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:38:06 Yeah, that too. That, too, was a culture that, if I'm not mistaken, I don't know, because I wasn't, you know, I wasn't around in the 50s, but I think it really caught on after expo 67, that there was a culture of we'll be back at two ish when you went out the front door for lunch, and two ish often was. Three often was we're not coming back to the office today. And that was in those were the days before cell phones. And there's some legendary stories not only about bars inside general manager's offices but one particular general manager had a phone installed at a bar downtown on Crescent Street where, you know, if he wasn't in the office at 786-4742, you could reach him at 786-4795. And that was the phone that rang at Sir Winston Churchill in the middle of the afternoon. That's a wacky culture, but it's cool. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:39:03 Well, my dad told me about stockbrokers at lunchtime at the Queen Elizabeth Hotel, smoking, and generally four or five drinks at lunchtime, and then people would wander back to work to complete their day of trading before the market closed. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:39:17 I was lucky enough to have lunch a number of times with the legendary Gord Sinclair, and he loved and had been going to the same restaurant. And I wish I could remember the name at the top of my head. It was the restaurant in the Shadow Champlain. The Shadow Champlain Hotel was right in downtown with those half moon windows. If you've ever seen the skyline. Big sort of skyscraper, but it has half moon windows just by the bell center. Yeah. And in that hotel was a famous restaurant whose name is escaping me. And he got the old Mr. Sinclair. Hello. Bonjour. Suboptim mr. Sinclair. And he would sit down, and before he could get his ass in the chair, there'd be a cocktail at the table, and he would sit and he would bark back, like, three or four of those. And I had been up since, like, four, and he had been up since four and driven in from Hudson, and it's like 130, ten to two. And I finally got to know him well enough where I had to say at one point, gordon, I got to go home or I'm going to fall over. And he'd say, all right, let's go. And he would get in the car and I'd think, Jesus Christ, not only are you 100, but you've had, like, four side cars or whatever this is you're drinking, but that's what people did. Like, you were explaining to Bob, this is the way it goes. That's what you got to do. Yeah. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:40:38 Avery and I get a rush out of that when we go to Montreal, whether we go to Express or to any one of those restaurants where the service is different, just like, do that thing again when Mr. BoJo, Mr. Sinclair, BoJo, Mr. Conde, your usual place? Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:40:53 Yeah, it's the best. I always found a real comfort in that. I had that at a restaurant called Le Mondes Olivier. And Le Mondez Olivier was a classic. Where it was during lunch rush, there were captains of industry from French businesses, captains of industry from English industries, the editor of La Presse, the editor of the Gazette, Brian Mulroney. It was one of those places. And it was owned by a guy named Jacques Mueller, who was your classic sort of bit of a belly on him with a striped apron. And he would greet you at the door. Cuts to the point where I was there every Friday night and sometimes Friday and Saturday night. And I got the same kind of after you become a regular, you're like, Mr. Gibbonte, behave. New behavior. What? Dab is over here. And same thing. My giant martini was on the table before I could even pull my chair in. And it's a wonderful feeling. It's a really nice feeling. And it's a lot different than waiting in the lounge at a chain restaurant and having the waitress, or the, you know, the hostess seat you and say, now remember, you've only got the table for 2 hours. Fuck off. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:42:08 Oh, no. You can also tell you're in the wrong place when two minutes after you get your food, how are the first few bites? And I'm eating. I would just feel like just spinning it out at this point. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:42:20 But it's my own fault for being. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:42:22 In the wrong place. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:42:25 That reminds me of another great story that I'm sure I've told on this podcast before. I wasn't there. I can't confirm it. It could be hearsay. Ted Blackman at a lunch table ordered a bottle of red wine and they poured the wine for him to taste. And he tilted his head back and took a big swig of the wine and went and spit it out and looked up at the waiter and said, That'll be fine. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:42:54 You brought back such great memories of that restaurant. It was on Crescent Street, right? Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:42:58 Lamades Oliviere on Bishop Street. Another street that's been ruined, by the. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:43:03 Way, by that one is definitely yeah. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:43:05 That street is over. That's been ruined by condos. Nothing but condos. And I think a four year construction project. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:43:12 Yeah, way to fuck that up. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:43:14 And jock who owned Le Martin Levie was smart enough to get out before the end came. And I think there's one good restaurant still hanging in there called DA Vinci's, which has been there for a very long time. But yeah, Le Mondes oliviere that was the night. It got to the point where, you know, I would make reservations for 730 or eight, and at 1111 15 I'd say, well, anybody want to go to Ziggy's? You know, we'd sit. Dinner would be the event of the evening. I love nothing more than that. You know, this. I love nothing more than that. You know. I have a long lingering dinner like that. But now a lot of places will tell you upfront, you can only have the table for 2 hours. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:43:51 I'm like, what time do you close? We close at eleven. I said, Well, I'll take a table at nine. Honestly, I do that because I can't be told to hurry up. It's not going to happen. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:44:00 I didn't mean we've gone down the food alley and I don't think it's very Christmas evodcast this year. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:44:05 Matt well, I'll take a note for next year that we probably should not record the episode just before lunch. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:44:13 Yeah, there's another thing that has taken some getting used to is living in the Pacific time zone is really weird. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:44:20 I wanted to tell you about the Mabez. Olivier, Josh, my brother, has a birthday that's on the 23 December. And of course, we all feel sorry for Josh for many reasons, including when his birthday lands. But one year we went there for his birthday and out came the two giant baguettes on the table. But I was sitting across from Henry and we pulled them out like lightsabers and started dueling at the table. And if you can imagine this wonderful upscale restaurant with these two Westmount Hillbillies duking it out with baguettes. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:44:50 Who were the adults at the table who were horrified? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:44:53 All my family, actually. No, it was just my mother. It was just my mother. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:44:57 Your poor mom. That was another thing that I liked about lemon, was I never went in there without a collared shirt on. But it wasn't stuffy. There was linen tablecloths and linen napkins, and the waiters were all old pros with black vests on. But it wasn't stuffy. It wasn't like that. They wanted you to have fun. It was like going to your uncle's house. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:45:22 Do you want to mention the time you went to Le Pari? Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:45:28 Your family introduced me to Le Pari. Why were we there that day? It was classic spot on St. Catherine street that had been there since the had never been. I don't remember how old I was, but I don't think I had been going to restaurants, you know, nice restaurants, for very long, and I thought, Stick for it. That's the way to go. And I made the mistake of asking for ketchup. And I don't think anybody warned me that you couldn't ask for ketchup at Le Parry for the fries. I got such a dressing down with the eyes. It was such a disdain of, how dare you put that shit on our French fries. He didn't say that, but he meant that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:46:08 So I would like you to know that this has evolved because Avery and I went to Sheila Vac and said, Woolley, will you catch up? Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:46:16 OOH. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:46:17 I said, Mayonnaise. I said, Ah, we miss you. Du ketchup blonde. Where is this place now? He's just making fun of us, saying yes. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:46:25 Where is this place now? What is this? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:46:27 Yeah, shayla VEC is a brasserie, and it's actually across the street from another great restaurant called Lemiac up on Lore. So sometimes I'll badger the mayor of Westmount by saying, check out Lori. Is Green Avenue. Keeping up gentle, Chiding? I'm not. Try not to be too mean, but I will say that after a couple. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:46:45 Of drinks, last time I was there, Green Avenue was struggling, tony's was gone, and Tony's Shoes was I know a shoe store doesn't sound like a big deal, but it was a real kind of like an anchor tenant of that street. And a few of the other shops have since closed, too. I haven't walked down Green Avenue in months, so I don't know if it's on the rebound or not. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:47:07 I'm glad you mentioned it, because it was described to me that Tony's was an anchor tenant of the street. And by the way, if people are wondering why we talk about Green Avenue, I grew up three blocks from Green Avenue and we worked on Shom. And if you worked at CKGM, this is where these radio stations were located for many, many years. And so, inevitably, we're going to walk up and down Green Avenue and notice, you know, the big changes and the differences with it. But, you know, for instance, the bank on the corner, the Scotia Bank, think back to the got a paycheck, you had to run it up the street to the bank to cash it. So that's why we knew these places. There was a Lulu Lemon up there on the corner, but it's been vacant for five years. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:47:46 And it's one of those old classics that were built in probably 1910, 1920. And that bank was when I started working at Showman 1984. That was the bank. That was the bank that show me. So that was the bank where I opened an account. 40 years later, I'm still a Scotia Bank customer. Not that that's breaking news or anything, but it's amazing how those things happen. Yeah. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:48:10 And by the way, just a little bit to Green Avenue because you mentioned a little bit about putting the tables out where parking used to be. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:48:16 Well, parking is still there. That's the thing. They managed to keep the parking and put the tables and include a bike lane and have a sidewalk. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:48:25 I've been trying to convince people in Winnipeg to look at that space as instead of having parking stalls in some spots, why not open it up for restaurants? On the sidewalk or on the street, you'll get way more revenue than you will doing like a dollar 95 an hour or whatever it is that you charge for parking. But I mean, you can, you can imagine how swift they are in Winnipeg to for progress. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:48:47 I'm sympathetic because I lived in Winnipeg, and one of the things that has not changed in Winnipeg is public transit. Public transit is shit in Winnipeg. Unless you're jumping on the bus from St. James and going downtown, that's an easy fix. But if you live in Charles Wood and you work downtown, or you live in Kildonan and you work downtown, or, you know, you live out St. Patel way up by the Mint, you know, where our old friend, the master of the morning lives, I wouldn't want to have to take the four buses downtown from there. Or if your aunt lives in St. James and you want to get to St. Patel, I understand why people go to their cars. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:49:25 Winnipeg is unique because it does have an eight lane highway that runs all the way through the center of town to meet another eight lane highway called Main Street. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:49:33 Yeah, well, there was a time before the Perimeter Highway. If you were driving across the country, you had to drive down Portage and you got on Portage and that's how you got to Brandon. So you had to drive through, make the corner of Portage in Maine and head west and keep driving past St. James and on past the racetrack, and then you're on your way to Brandon and there was no highway to drive on. So I understand how that happened. And what was that Italian place you took me to when I was there a couple of summers ago? Remember? We went to the Italian grocery store. Who the hell would want to take. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:50:08 The bus out there? Oh, DeLucas, which is located down south landing off McGillvary. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:50:14 Yeah. When I lived in Winnipeg, none of that was there. All of that was just open field. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:50:19 I think someone got a tax break, someone's getting something for something. And I can assure you there's no bus out there. But when we're talking about some of the buildings in Winnipeg where radio stations are housed, it's like you get a choice of four or five. And I know this because now Evanoff has moved into that building where Chorus was. When you're looking for places in Winnipeg to house your radio station, most of the places are off the map because there's no bus service. So you can't really have a place in the middle of nowhere with no bus service. Your employees can't get there. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:50:51 One of the things that you know, this, I still have a fondness for Winnipeg that never went away. And I wish I could get out there more, and I will, hopefully in the New Year, because I've always loved the Winnipeg that always have a special place in my heart. One of the things about it that has always been fascinating to me is the population never changes. It goes up 20,000 or down 20,000, but it's always around the same mark. And I guess that's why there's not enough money for an LRT. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:51:19 But they can sure find a way to build houses all the way to the far perimeter, which means more roads, which means more fire departments, which means more infrastructure that the city can't afford. Winnipeg, by the way, we'll go broke within the next twelve years, and I want to wish whoever is going to be living here at that time, I need to get out of here in the next two or three years, by the way, before the whole place goes broke. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:51:39 Matt's got a beautiful home in Tuxedo, by the way, if you're looking for a good buy in the next couple. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:51:44 Of years, I'll take $925,000 for it. There's a swimming pool. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:51:50 Yeah, it's a beautiful pool in the backyard. It's actually a really nice backyard, by the way. Did they ever finish building the house next door. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:51:58 They barely did and but the the construction workers are still showing up and they work out of the garage. It looks like one of these houses they're just going to work on forever. This building to the property line thing is okay, I guess people don't want backyards anymore. Terry, I wanted to ask you, though, about the Pacific Time zone, because we've had the time zone discussion for years. I still think the best time zone is the Mountain Time Zone. You can watch all the sports and still get to bed at a decent hour. Central time zone is pretty good. But how are you coping with the Pacific? Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:52:30 Well, the Pacific takes some getting used to. It's interesting. My wife says it feels like we're stealing time because all our family and most of our friends are east of here. So if it's Patty in Calgary, it's an hour, and if it's you in Central Time Zone, it's two. But most of our friends and family are in Ontario and Quebec, so it's three. So we'll look at our watches at 07:00 and say, Chris, is 10:00 already back east? And it feels weird. And it takes a little if you grew up in the Eastern time zone, when you're watching a football game on a Sunday afternoon, you think, oh, Chris, it must be near 04:00. And you realize, no, football came on at 10:00 this morning. And somebody will text me, one of my buddies will text me from home and say, are you watching the Habs? And I'll think, no, I'm not watching the Habs. It's 04:00 in the app. Oh, wait a minute. Yeah, the habs are on. So that's weird. And I think if I was in my 30s, it would be great because you can watch the hockey, for example, on a Saturday. And hockey by and large for us, anyway, if you want to watch the Canadians, it's done by 630. You can go out and have dinner and get on with your life and go to bars or do whatever. So for me, it's interesting and it's weird and we kind of like it. It just takes some getting used to, that's all. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:53:52 Well, sometimes I'll think, oh, I'll call Terry. Oh, no, he's not up. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:53:58 Yeah, that's the other thing. I have to make sure my phone is away from the bed because a lot of even when I put my phone on mute, it'll be ten to five. And I'll hear and I'll think, Jesus Christ, it's ten to five in the morning. But at home it's 08:00 and somebody's like, oh, yeah, I got to tell Terry this. And it's hard to remember. It's like mountain, central, eastern. It doesn't matter. It just it just takes some getting used to. But I think Pacific and the Pacific Northwest is a little bit extreme. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:54:29 One of the things that's stopping me from moving to Halifax is the start times of the. NFL football games, like starting at two in the afternoon and then the Sunday night game. What would that start? Like 930, 1030 at night. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:54:40 That and 135 snow that had put me off. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:54:46 And the hurricanes, there's more hurricanes than ever that are blowing through there. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:54:50 We live we can see Mount Baker from where we live in the valley. Mount Baker is a volcano. And my wife is always doing the lava math, which way does the lava flow? And I said, It's not going to sleep. It hasn't gone off for hundreds of years. She always says, yeah, that means it's due. And then there's earthquakes, and then out here there's tsunamis. You see the tsunami roots. I mean, we're in the valley, so tsunami is not going to get us, but it doesn't really matter where you go. And I thought I was escaping the goddamn winter. Last year we had a ton of snow, and this year we've already had 20 as. You and I are recording this. Apparently there's another 20 CM coming this weekend and quote, record cold next week. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:55:35 So what constitutes record cold in that part of the world? Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:55:39 Well, like minus ten when you get used to people are wearing shorts out here all year long. I wouldn't wear shorts right now. It's like today here it's five degrees. I don't think that's short weather, but could be, I suppose, if you're a hearty Canadian. But when it's five, six degrees, seven degrees, that's usually the norm in the winter. And it usually rains all the time. A lot of weather has been clear and cold recently. And when you get used to plus five, plus six when it's minus ten, you feel it. And I I know. I lived in Winnipeg, and I lived in Calgary. And I lived in Montreal. I should know better what's cold is -35 with you know a wind chill of -42 that's cold not minus ten. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:56:22 We had that one day last week. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:56:23 Yeah. And that's a special kind of cold. I tell people that all the time. I used to say to people in Winnipeg, I'll be fine here in the winter. I grew up in Montreal and they all kind of went, yeah, that's not winter in Montreal, you'll see. And I remember the first November that I was there, I thought, I have never experienced anything like this, or I've never experienced anything like this because your nostrils freeze shot Christmas. Now we're talking about the weather. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:56:57 Again. You were given warning that we would be talking about that. But don't give up on us. We'll find a way to wrap this up and make it nice and tidy and cute like a Christmas present. However, if you're tired of our voices and need a break from us, you can read the rest of this because I posted a transcript of this episode that you can download for your legal files now@soundoffpodcast.com. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:57:22 Transcription the the Sound Off podcast powered by potent. Your podcast is an SEO goldmine. We help you to dig out, start your free trial now at poten dot IO the the the Sound Off podcast. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:57:35 Kundal someone you and I both know, chris Sinclair, he was the program director at 990 Hits plug his book. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:57:42 I was I got a copy of the book and I was looking at it the other night, and I haven't had a chance to sit and read it, but I read the introduction. It looks really fascinating. It is. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:57:51 And I had a chance to go through it. And who would have thought that when we were in that building on Green Avenue that he was going to amount to 25 years of weather and a book at the end of it? So congratulations, Chris. It's a great book. And I had him on the podcast and we talked about climate change, but he didn't want to talk about it as being some sort of big political thing. But he goes, there's enough evidence out there to know that things are changing, and it is different. This isn't your usual sort of change, but I can't remember what they called. You were going to get a ton of rain in the Fraser Valley. And I can't remember if they were going to call it some sort of rainy river bed from hell, atmospheric river. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 00:58:33 You've touched on something that really is beginning to burn my ass. I was watching CBS News. I don't watch the news as much as I used to, but Jess was making dinner and I dialed into CBS News and there were two stories in the intro to CBS News. They talked about something that was happening in Washington trump taxes. Something something the war in Ukraine and a missile attack by Russians and horrific weather in the Midwestern part of the United States. So let's go to that breaking news. We have high winds and snow in North Dakota. Oh, do you now? It's fucking December. That's called winter in North Dakota. It's not breaking news. It's not the end of the world. A truck went off the road. You don't say. The things they do now with the weather. Did you see CTV News tweeted the other day that cold weather can create heart problems in people? Like, it's so ridiculous. The weather maps on TV now are like they're made fire engine red. When there's summer and when it's going to rain a lot, it's now an atmospheric river when there's going to be a cold front, it's now a polar vortex. There's like this whole element of how do we get people to watch the news? And let's see if we can scare the shit out of them. Anybody who's been to Fargo, North Dakota, in December knows that winter can create some pretty horrific conditions. I'm not suggesting the climate isn't changing. I know it is. But fuck off with your atmospheric rivers and your polar Death Star and your oh, yeah, the heat dome. It's a heat dome. Don't forget to find shelter. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:00:29 It's July. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 01:00:31 Go to the pool, you idiots. Put on the sunscreen. Stop it with this. Honest to Christ. And, you know, and now the networks are pushing, like, what is real news aside to tell you that winters arrives in Fargo, North Dakota. Oh, has it? Matt Cundill (Host) 01:00:49 It's December, by the way. It did arrive, and we're getting it today in Winnipeg. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 01:00:54 Well, there you go. And here's a surprise for you. It's cold in Manitoba in the winter, and if you're on the perimeter highway during a windy snowstorm, you're going to have something called a white out, and you're not going to be able to see because it's on the prairies. Usually happens sometime between October and March. And it's not the end of the world, and it's not breaking news. It's a snowstorm in Manitoba. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:01:19 I would love to go on about how terrible the radio content is that we listen to on our radios, but it's only usurped by News, which is run by I don't know who is putting together these stories, but I do know that I'm sick of them asking for more money, pleading poverty, offering nothing in return, and not covering the Ukraine, which I think is is the worst. I learned more about what's going on in the Ukraine by David Letterman, who traveled there and did a show and interviewed President Zelinsky than I have been offered on any network in the last nine months. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 01:01:57 Well, it's especially egregious here in Canada because, as you know, the radio companies have decimated and emptied all of their newsrooms of reporters. So there's no people there. There's no journalists training young journalists. It's either social justice warriors coming right out of college. Nobody's talking to them of a pronunciation or editorial control or any of the things that used to matter in journalism. And it's really rich that places like CTV News are trying to bolster Internet hits or viewership with this kind of crazy sensationalism. And they're trying to bolster their news divisions with sensationalism because they let all their people go. CTV famously got rid of makeup people and lighting people. We've talked about this before in the podcast. Kind of like to me, you open a restaurant and say, well, we don't need plates or forks. It's the same thing with television. Television doesn't need sound people and light people. Well, actually, it kind of does. And if you're going to run a NewsHour, you should have people there to find news for you, as opposed to surfing the Internet and trying to create sensationalist weather forecasts and whatnot. It's really in a sorry state. And what's interesting is in America, there's a little bit of that, but at least in America, they've kept most of their bureaus open and they have experienced people and experienced reporters for the most part. It's not uncommon to turn on an American news package or an American news show and see anchors and reporters who've been there for 2030, 40 years. Well, maybe not 40 years, but experienced people still in the job in their fifty s and sixty s. And I'm exposed to Seattle, which is a big American market here. And there are four or five different supperhour newscasts, all of them well staffed with lots of reporters, lots of local news. So I think the Americans are probably ten years ahead of us. And who knows, maybe it'll come back when these corporations get bored of running media companies. I don't know, it could be very wrong. But for me, who understands how broadcasting to me should be local and targeted at local people and create local excitement? It's been hard to watch and to listen to. And I have to admit, Matt, I drive my wife to the station, to the Sky Train twice a week, three times a week, and I make sure I never leave the house with a podcast on my phone. There's nothing for me to listen to. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:04:36 I was going to mention it's nice that the King Five News still matters. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 01:04:39 There you go, coma. News king Five. News It's interesting that you and I know what those brands are because they've serviced those brands and really done well with it. And there are some people here on the radio. There's the Jeff O'Neill Show on Seafox. It's probably the best and most well put together morning show that I've heard in a very long time. I listen to that once in a while. Willie Percy does an old school morning show. That's it. And to your newspoint, if you're in the radio business and you watch ratings, CBC are the now the most popular news talk stations all across the country. Without exception, I think without exception, all of the private radio stations have fallen off the radar because and it's not surprising, CJAD CFRB, CJOB 770 News in Calgary, I forget what's in Edmonton, you'll know, that was it CHED. CHED CKNW in Vancouver does fairly well, but they're also chased by CBC because listeners know, I mean, the CBC is a little bit too ideological for me, but at least people know when they go to CBC they're going to get, by and large, broadcast, seasoned people and not seven minute commercial breaks. And I think that's why CBC has done so well across the country. Also. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:05:59 A number of those CBC channels, though, are on FM and all those other stations are on Am. However, that would be on the radio business to have gone to the CRTC to fix that. And I know we did try that in 2007 and eight, but you got to go back and you got to ask. And the CRTC and these corporations didn't talk to each other because the corporations didn't want to deal with the headache of radio because it's expensive to have lawyers and people going through the compliance and everything that you need to do to make these businesses work. So the corporations checked out and we're left with what we have. And if you read, by the way, what the CRTC has decided to do with radio visa vis policy, it turns out to be next to nothing. I called it a nothing burger, an absolute joke. Now it feels like radio is circling the drain. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 01:06:48 Yeah, it does. I I really think that I think, you know, if you talk to anybody under 20, they don't even know what you're talking about. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:06:56 I want to play a clip from your podcast. Do I have to call legal to do this or how do I hang. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 01:07:01 On, let me check with legal. Yeah, it's all clear. You're good to go. Tommy Schnumacher Clip 01:07:09 Now, what's changed since is to me, absolutely stunning. This absolutely stunning. One day I was listening to a certain A m. Radio station yes. In in Montreal that should be nameless on the 09:00 news. The three items of news at 09:00 a.m. Terry, where a car went off the the highway and had a little crash in the West Island. They were culling deer on the south shore, and people who went to the San Diego zoo got a very big surprise because the giraffe gave birth to a baby giraffe. That was it for the 09:00 A.m. News. I said, it can't be. Maybe somebody died in the chair. Can you believe that? This was in the middle of chaos in the US. COVID, like, everything like 150 news things, right? And that so that to me, I was stunned at about that. That came to me as a huge shock that that was acceptable. That wouldn't be acceptable in a high school radio station. On the first day that you did it, I was looking at my friend Harold. Did you just hear that? That's it. Now they're talking about the traffic. That's all there is. That was it. That's the whole use of them in Montreal and Quebec and Canada. The baby giraffe musseltoff. I mean, if that doesn't sum up what's going on in these places and what is considered to be newsworthy content. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 01:08:57 Today, it's really sad. And this isn't just nostalgia. This was a big radio station that served a really big purpose in the city of Montreal and was described to me by the man who owned it. Gary Slate told me when we talked about me doing the morning show there, he told me it was one of his father's favorite radio stations. He said he referred to it as one of our jewels in the crown. They were very, very proud of it and very, very proud of what it did. During the ice storm in Montreal, during the Decari flood in Montreal, during the riots, the referendum, people tuned to that radio station, they stopped what they were doing. And even with big stories like the Challenger, you made sure you stopped what you were doing and you dialed into CJAD. Because that's how reliable they were. That's how good they were. And it was a place like you would see in an old movie, where Gordon Sinclair would yell at the reporters the morning of the decarry flood. He just would stand in the newsroom and yell, everybody out. Meaning go out and get the story. And I know that's expensive. I understand it. It's expensive to do. It's labor intensive. It costs money. But the slates made money doing it. Why can't the corporations make money doing it? I think they can, but I don't run a corporation and I'm not serving shareholders. But I also think that there is and this is one of the things the CRTC miss. There's a responsibility to owning a signal like that. You should be held to a certain level of responsibility to the community if you want to own that license. That's the way it used to work. But that's fallen by the wayside now, too, because Tommy and me and Ted talking about that, with very few exceptions, that place is now an embarrassment as far as I'm concerned. It's an embarrassment. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:10:57 I found the policy that the CRTC everything had to do with music. And we're in an era that people aren't coming to radio for music. You can get music anywhere. It's ubiquitous. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 01:11:08 Yeah. And people do people make their own choices for music. I'm more interested in it could be a function of my age, but I'm more interested in interesting content. That's why I don't leave the house without choosing three or four podcasts to make sure those are on the phone so that I can plug them in and make sure that I have podcasts that are engaging in either teaching me something or stirring up my brain. But to dial into a radio station and hear text us at 1422 and tell us whether or not you fell on the ice yet this year, fuck off. Like, talk to me like an adult. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:11:46 You already listed your choices. It's a podcast. Or it's Jeff O'Neill or Willie And by the way, two of those offer a little bit of a combo of content and music and then the podcasts have the talk. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 01:11:58 Yeah, Jeff O'Neill does a really polished, authentic they sound like good folks who are plugged into the city. And Willie has been on the air here a long time. Longtime friend of his dad. There's broadcast jeans in that family. But the rest of it is it's either being one of the radio stations has a morning show piped in from Calgary. No, thanks. Vancouver is if it's not the third largest market in the country, some people would argue it's the second largest, certainly the second largest English market in the country when you compare it to Montreal. Montreal has got more people, but the size of the English audience vancouver is number two. Piping. It in from Calgary. Come on, you can't do better than that. And there's another show that on the air. It's I don't know. The two hosts sound like two weasels in a bag, and they're always talking about themselves. And I do that thing that everybody does click, click. Well, it doesn't click anymore because it's a touch screen, but you know what I mean? You go across the dial, and I always go, God, yes. What happened? What happened in this rich used to be a rich, creative landscape where you would come and you would listen to Doc Harris and Raccoon Carney. And again, it's not nostalgia. It's the content and the quality of the people. Bill Good and Tony Parsons and these guys were big, big broadcasters, and you had to go work in Brandon or Musja or Prince Rupert for a few years before you got to get on the all night show at the local radio station. And now it sounds to me like they're standing in front of BCIT going, hey, what are you doing this afternoon? That's a long fall for a profession I was very proud of. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:13:50 Listen, telling stories is hard to have Valerie Geller in your corner when we worked in radio, to come up and to teach us about storytelling is one of the greatest things. And I look at your podcast, and my favorite episodes are the ones where the stories get told. So my favorite episode from last year is the one with Ziggy Ziggy I Can Bomb on Crescent Street, who has the bar, but I never knew about the story. When he had, like, Drake come into the bar, I knew about a number of those other ones. But the reason why that episode is my favorite is the stories that are told, and we don't tell enough stories on the radio. And by the way, you can tell a story quite easily in 60 seconds, and you'll probably do very well for yourself if you did, but you can't even get 60 seconds out of what's your favorite flavor of chips in Texas? Now, that's not a story to me. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 01:14:36 That's just so lazy. There's a format now that's all the rage across the country, and it's here, too. Be part of the conversation. What are you talking about? I forget what the slogan is. That's the slogan. Be part of the conversation. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:14:50 It's Join the conversation. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 01:14:51 Join the conversation. And what is it? Matt Cundill (Host) 01:14:54 Move now. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 01:14:56 Now. There you go. What does that mean? Matt Cundill (Host) 01:15:00 Well, it did well in Edmonton when it launched in 2010, and I think it was listen, it was perfect for the times. Edmonton radio had gotten soft and lazy, and in came this format, and it worked. It worked really, really well. And I think the industry waited too long to put those into other markets. And I asked a few people I asked Steve Jones, said, Why is this not rolled out across the company that he was working with at the time? And he said, I just can't justify 75% of the marketing budget across the country to stick it into one market, because you do need to market a station like that a lot. So corporately it didn't seem to work. And now they're trying to put it on the radio in 2022 and it's too late. They put one on in Winnipeg. Terry, our blood alcohol level is higher right now than the ratings of that radio station. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 01:15:51 And I honestly thought, I thought the format would work. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:15:53 It would be fantastic in Winnipeg, but that was in 2013. I thought it would be great. In fact, when we put Fresh on the air, I kind of asked chorus, I said, maybe we should be doing this, Terry. Can you imagine the tens of dollars they would have had to spend on that station? And by the way, I know you mentioned we don't run corporations, but I just checked, I do run a corporation, actually. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 01:16:11 You are a corporate master. That's right. I keep forgetting about that. That's right. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:16:17 The the the soundoff media company creating raises of tens of dollars for people. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 01:16:24 I just remember in the era that I got hired yeah, a long time ago, but I think the premise would still work when City FM and Winnipeg hit the airwaves and changed format to Rock gary Obi Magic as he was called, and Steve Young and the guys that ran that place, they went looking for interesting characters. Interesting characters who could tell stories and become authentic people, who could become people that listeners thought were their friends. And that therein lies to me the essence of the magic of radio and the importance of communication. All the places that I've worked, the successful people who worked at those places, listeners felt like they knew those people. One of the highest compliments I ever got while I was on the radio is people would say, I hope you don't mind me stopping in saying hello, because I feel like I know you. That's gone now. That's been replaced by hurry up, get on, get off. See if he can get the text line going. And don't forget to post on Facebook. We're trying to get our Facebook numbers up. And you know, this things get posted on Twitter all the time, where people are telling a story or confessing something, or talking about a child who passed or a parent who passed, or something very, very personal always gets some kind of attention. That's because that's the magic of radio. When people say, I remember the morning you were on the air when Gord Downey died, you got all choked up. Those are the moments. That's what radio does. Radio reaches through the speaker and grabs the listener. That's not being taught. That doesn't happen anymore. And I know nobody asks me or anybody from my era, I haven't had a discussion about radio with anybody in radio since I've been out of radio. No one's asked my opinion or nobody's asked what I think. And maybe that's because what we're saying sounds outdated, but I don't think it is. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:18:37 I think what's going on is that they would like to ask your opinion, but there's nothing in that opinion that they would be able to change, I. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 01:18:45 Think, to your point, storytelling, communicating. I hear things on the radio that, when I do listen, that are so frustrating. I hear people talking to people and being so afraid of the clock or so busy trying to get a Facebook post out of it or a text out of it. They miss trying to make the connection with the people who are actually listening to the show that morning or that afternoon. And I think staffing a radio station with some characters, a morning guy, a midday person and an afternoon person who are good storytellers and characters and are passionate about music and can tell stories. Like, to me, that now would stand out, that would be unique in a marketplace. It doesn't exist anymore. And I still think that that's part of what made City FM was a great example of that. None of us had any experience. We were all young, we were all nuts, we couldn't believe our good luck, but we were all characters, we all told great stories. We were out every night in the street shaking hands and meeting people, and people made fun of us. People thought it was a stupid idea. And in two or three years it became a powerhouse, that station. And I think, if I'm not mistaken, I don't know what they're doing today, but I think in the ratings that I looked at this week, city FM did well again with men 25 to 54. So that was a legacy that was started because in 1978 it was a classical music station and its beginning was people who said, hey, let's put some interesting and creative people on the radio and see where it goes. 40 years later, it's still going. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:20:29 So I asked myself while you were saying that, where are all the people who are young and nuts? And all I could think of was, they're at Joey's. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 01:20:40 You're probably right. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:20:42 I know my kids go there. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 01:20:44 By the way, how are your kids? And your kids are at the age now where I text with them all once in a while. I talk politics with Dan. I don't hear much from Jake. I know he's very, very busy. And I was just giving Andrew shit the other day on text. And they're at that age where, like, what do you do at Christmas? Do you buy them things? Matt Cundill (Host) 01:21:05 Their Christmas lists were largely incomplete. That's what my mother said. So Andrew and Jacob, twins, they just wanted, like, some sweaties and a hoodie and maybe some headphones. And Daniel had a nice extensive list. He plays the bass, so he wants all sorts of equipment, like a $600 direct input that plays Motown, Barry Gordy, something or other. Motown, Detroit, Motown, stop in the name of love. Do you like eggnog at Christmas? Terry DiMonte (Guest) 01:21:32 I can have one. Eggnog is one of those things. They're like White Russians. The first couple of sips are really, really good and tastes like Christmas. And then it's like, oh, my God, I want a martini now. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:21:45 Because Avery was like, why doesn't your family have eggnog at Christmas? And I went gross. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 01:21:50 Nobody likes to drink anything with the word nog in it. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:21:54 Or egg. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 01:21:55 Or egg. Yeah. You know what? My mum and dad always had one in the fridge, and it's certainly well enhanced by a good dose of rum. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:22:05 Yes. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 01:22:06 And that tastes like Christmas. But it's like, okay, I've had my one rum and eggnog. That's fine. And what usually happens is you usually end up pouring it out of the carton and down the sink at the end of the holidays. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:22:19 Avery is like, we should have some eggnog. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 01:22:21 And I'm like, aren't we trying to. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:22:22 Cut back or get rid of dairy? We're going the wrong way. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 01:22:27 Yeah, but it's Christmas. You use that excuse too, eh? It's Christmas. Doesn't matter. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:22:32 In 2023. I can't believe we're talking about that year. What are you looking forward to? Terry DiMonte (Guest) 01:22:37 Well, I'm looking forward to travel. I'll talk about this more in the new year. I've been unable to travel the last couple of months for personal reasons that I'll talk about, like I said, in the new year. But I really want to get busy traveling. I turned 65 in January, which I cannot fucking believe. I got a thing in the mail about my old age pension. And it's true what they say. You just it's unfathomable to me that I'm going to be 65 and that the government wants to send me my old age pension, which I will take, by the way. But I don't feel it. I don't feel it in my legs. I don't feel it in my head. I can't skate or run like I used to, but good God, I just can't believe he's 65. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:23:21 Anyway, I might suggest that's the company. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 01:23:23 You keep yeah, there you go. Matt is referencing that I have a much younger wife who you're right, has kept me young and in shape. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:23:33 Oh, my God, the stress of trying to keep up yeah. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 01:23:37 And is the greatest thing that's ever happened to me. Literally. She saved my life. But what I do know and what she knows and she knew going in 6566, 676-869-7071, nothing is guaranteed. And we've all already lost friends at far too young an age. You lost a good friend at a ridiculous young age. So it's pitter patter. Let's get at her. So Jess and I have talked about doing things. She has absolutely caught a passion for cooking. So there's an Italy trip that we would like to take that would be longer than corporate holidays will allowed. We'll see how we structure that. And also, she's an Anglophile and has turned. Me into a Premier League soccer fan, and we want to spend some time in England close to Christmas, so maybe this time next year, we'll find time to do a couple of weeks in England. So travel and experiences. She's going to see Springsteen. There are a couple of concerts that I want to go to. I've seen more shows, I think, in the last year and a half because of her love of live music. So there'll be more of that in the new year when we come through the other side of the holidays. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:24:51 Manchester United is going into that stadium, old Trafford. It is a sea of alcohol, Terry. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 01:24:58 Okay. I'm willing to try to see if I could keep up. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:25:02 What do you mean? You're going to fit right in. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 01:25:04 Yeah. Jess has been to Old Trafford and taken the tour when the team has been playing. And she went one year, and she described it. Manchester United, I'm learning, is to Premier League. Kind of like what the Canadians are to hockey. There's a presence. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:25:21 It's revered. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 01:25:22 Yeah, it's revered. And she said she felt that way when she was at Old Trafford. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:25:26 I always think that your first sports experience in that space is kind of the team that you're going to stick with. And I think of my first trip to see an NFL game was the Buffalo Bills. And here I am every Sunday, suffering from high blood pressure. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 01:25:44 But lots to cheer about now these days. Matt, with the Buffalo Bills. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:25:48 Well, it took a long time. It took 17 years for them to turn that thing around. And by the way, it was from the top. It was corporate culture. It was the former owner, Mr. Wilson, was getting old and passing on and then left it to three daughters who pretty much let the inmates run the asylum. And then when the Pughas took over sports family who had run the you talked about George Gillette. In fact, on the episode with Ziggy, you talked about that ownership of the Montreal Canadians, who I didn't even know that Jeff Olsen had had a conversation with George Gillette about buying the Montreal Canadians, and it took place at Ziggy's. And you know how far back Jeff and I go. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 01:26:27 Yeah. Foster Gillette, who was his dad's representative in Montreal, was at Ziggy's after every game. And I can't recall an era of any sports team where you could have a beer with the owner of the local big club. I mean, having a beer with the owner of the Canadiens. I mean, I've spoken to Jeff about this, and I can't imagine being Jeff Molson, because you can't go anywhere without one of the 5 million coaches of the Montreal Canadians telling you what you're doing wrong. The Gillette family, they knew going in that they were not well versed in hockey and they wanted to listen to everybody. And they didn't make a trade because somebody told them in Ziggies to trade them. But they engaged with the fans. And it's like anything else, whether you're running a radio company or a podcast company or a bar or a sports team. You're absolutely right. It starts at the top and dribbles down through the organization. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:27:24 So that's how the Buffalo Bills repaired themselves. Everything does come down to ownership. There's a reason why the Washington Redskins in 1983 had a season ticket waiting list of about 70 years, and that dickhead of an owner is in there, and he's soon going to be out. But they're a joke. And meanwhile, just up the coast is Baltimore with Lamar Jackson, and every kid has a purple jersey now, instead of whatever the Washington football team or whatever they're called now, the Commanders or the Zoolanders or ownership matters. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 01:27:58 Yeah, the franchise is a joke because the owner is a joke. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:28:02 Where are you going to travel? Do you have actual destinations aside from England? Where? In Italy. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 01:28:06 Would you look at what we want to do? And this is just a pencil sketch. My favorite city in Italy is Florence. And Jess has never been to the Tuscan region. She's never been to Tuscany. So what we would like to do, and what we're going to begin looking out for in the new year, is we'd like to rent a house in the Tuscan hills not too far from maybe Cortona, or maybe Florence driving distance, if we want. But what we'd like to do is we would like to spend time in a house with a pool not too far from a town where we can pop into a market. And Jess wants to talk to the locals about what they cook, how they cook and do cooking in Italy with Italian ingredients. And anybody who's been to Italy knows a peach, a pear, a tomato tastes different in Italy. When you bite into a pear in Italy, you can't believe what's happening. Lemons are the size of your head. And nobody, well, almost nobody, eats box pasta. Everything is fresh. So it's just a different experience, not only eating at restaurants, but cooking. And Jess wants to experience that, and we'd like to. She's still working in a corporate culture where they think a week or two is a lot of holidays, and I'm not working anymore. If I had my way, we'd spend the whole summer in Italy. But while my wife is working, we have to squeeze in what we can, and I think she can get away for three weeks. So the pencil sketch is somewhere in Tuscany. My picks are close to Cortona, because I've rented a house not far from Cortona before, and it was a wonderful experience. And or close to Florence, I've also rented a house close to there. I've rented places in Florence, and it's such a spectacular way to spend time. And like I said, Tommy Schnormacher told me this. Speaking of Tommy Schnormacher, two years before I was shown the door before my contract expired. He said to me, why aren't you retired? Why aren't you retired? And I said, well, you know, I'm not ready and my contract isn't over. And Tommy Siri was, listen, retire while you're still mobile and agile and you don't need a walker to get around. And don't worry about money because when you're in your eighty S, you can eat cat food because it won't matter anymore. Spend the money now while you can still get around. And I've got a younger wife, so she'll be around longer than I will be. Those words ring in my ears while I'm agile and still, you know, healthy and able to get around. I want to make the most of those years. And you know, those years should be over the next six to eight, hopefully 1012 years. And I'd like to see more of the planet. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:30:58 So same thing for me. I'm just going to do Spain instead. I'm going to Malaga for a little bit just to see what life is like in the wintertime. And I know you well, especially you have griped about winter for long enough. And I'm at the point where I don't need to drive to hockey with kids anymore. We're having 20 snow today. I don't feel like participating. And a place like Malaga in the wintertime with the food that you mentioned seems like a good idea. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 01:31:27 Listen, I get winter. We're Canadians, we know how to handle it. But I don't snowmobile, I don't cross country ski, I don't downhill ski, I don't snowboard. I'm not interested in taking up whatever, snowball fighting, whatever, if you don't do any of those things. To me, snow is pretty on Christmas Eve and snow is pretty on Christmas Day. And after that it's a giant pain in the ass. It blocks roads and causes people to fall and car crashes and it freezes your face and your ear lobes want to fall off. I know there's people who really, really love winter. I'm not one of those people. I would prefer to have an evening's breeze on the patio blowing in off the ocean as we prepare for another day of 81 degrees and sunny. To me that's a lot easier, right? You don't need parkas, you don't need boots, you don't need mitts. You need some shorts and a T shirt or ten and it's just a little easier to handle. So my fervent hope is you sell your home in Winnipeg and buy something in Spain and that you make sure I have your address and phone number so we can come and visit. And preferably not far from the water, if you wouldn't mind. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:32:52 No, there will be water involved. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 01:32:54 I live 2 hours from Whistler. Beautiful. Absolutely stunning. Wonderful skiers come from all over the planet. It's not my thing, but I do. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:33:03 Know you love Christmas. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 01:33:04 I love Christmas. I do. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:33:06 Well, you know what? This took the place of our Christmas drink. But we didn't even get to drink. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 01:33:11 Yeah, well, there you go. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:33:12 Merry Christmas to you Terry. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 01:33:13 I hope somebody listens to this. Matt. Well, Eli is going to listen to it. So merry Christmas, Eli. And Merry Christmas to you and the boys. And please, please give my love to your mom and your siblings who may remember. Merry Christmas, Avery. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:33:29 Merry Christmas, Terry. And Merry Christmas to Jess. Terry DiMonte (Guest) 01:33:31 Thank you, Matt. Right back at the whole Cundill Clan Tara Sands (VO) 01:33:31 The the Sound Off podcast written and.Hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski social Media by Courtney Krebsbach.Another great creation from the Soundoff media company. There's always more@soundoffpodcast.com.

Rob Greenlee returns to the show. He last appeared back in 2017, just after we did a panel on podcasting at the Conclave in Minneapolis. Rob is someone I hear from every week as he co-hosts the New Media Show with Todd Cochrane. So even though he has not appeared on this show, I feel as though I hear from him every week. Rob has a new position as SVP of Content and Partnerships. He had been with Libsyn the last three years and with Voxnest and Spreaker before that. The Podcasting Hall of Famer joins me to talk about many of the challenges podcasters are contemplating these days, including getting heads around a video strategy for their podcasts and Podcasting 2.0 which Rob and I tackle in the second half of the show. We also had an interesting discussion about the role podcasting can play when it comes to Live and Local. Can Podcasting take that from radio? As of recently, Rob also made a departure from Podbean in favour of focusing more energy on being a full-time content creator. You can read his full statement in the Tweet below: If you can't get enough of what we are talking about on the show - you can get a weekly delivery of this on the New Media Show where you can get a PhD in Podcasting. If you wanted to check out those podcasting tip sheets from YouTube, you can download them here. Transcript: Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:00:01 The Sound Off Podcast. The podcast about broadcast with Matt Cundill starts now. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:11 This week, Rob Greenlee returns to the show. We had him on way back in 2017 in episode 59. Rob was working at Spreaker at the time, and had previously worked at Microsoft working on things like Zune. Zune, if you recall, was a portable media player for Windows PCs. They also had a music subscription service, the Zune Music Pass. Rob returns to help us find our way through podcasting. What we really like is that we're releasing this episode so close to the new year, because it can serve as a look into 2023 and what we can expect in podcasting. There's absolutely nothing like congratulating yourself on your own podcast. Rob Greenlee joins me from Waterbury, Connecticut. Congratulations on the new gig at Podbean. Rob Greenlee (Guest) 00:00:59 Well, thank you very much. It's a new adventure for me, that's for sure. But I'm excited about it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:05 I don't need a LinkedIn profile to know what you've done, because the first time I saw you, it was- you were behind the desk at Spreaker and then you went to Libsyn and now you're at Podbean. And I've heard Todd Cochrane say that podcast hosts are rather ubiquitous, but you get to be inside all these different places. So what does separate these podcast hosts? And not these ones specifically, but all of them? Rob Greenlee (Guest) 00:01:29 Well, I think generally when you think about these hosting platforms, there's definitely some different priorities in the organization around what type of features and functions the platform supports and is actively pursuing. They're all essentially software companies, so they all are competing on a feature set to better appeal to potential customers, which are podcasters. So there's different priorities that a particular, maybe, CEO of the company has around the architecture of the platform and how it works with podcasters. But I do see a lot of similarity. Like Podbean has probably some more similarity to Spreaker than Libsyn has to Podbean. But yet Podbean was around in the very similar time frame, right? Podbean started in 2006, and so it was very early in the podcasting medium. Libsyn actually started in 2004, but that's not a huge time difference given that time frame. There wasn't a lot of other hosts around in that time frame. So Pod Bean has had- as well as Libsyn- has had many years to develop features and functions that tended to be features and functions that were something that were a priority back in 2006 or 2004. So it has taken these platforms on a little bit of a different trajectory. So you look at like a Spreaker, and that platform was created in 2010, which was a little bit of a different era in podcasting. So the desires of the platform were kind of commensurate with what was hot back then, which was more online radio. So that's what took Spreaker down the path of mobile recording and live streaming. And I think to some degree Podbean kind of picked up on that too, because Podbean supports mobile recording and live streaming just like Spreaker. So it's actually a platform after my heart, because I love live and I love doing shows. I come from live radio and so that was a passion alignment for me. And that's also what I missed at Libsyn, to be quite honest with you, was it didn't have that live capability built into the platform, but now that I've got that back again, I can play around with that and be a proponent of live broadcasting again, or live streaming is probably the more accurate way of putting it. So that's what has me jazzed and excited about working with a very full featured platform that is Podbean. So it's a competitive landscape with podcast hosts and we do what we can to go after shows. I think all the platforms have really prioritized monetization over the last few years, so I would say that that's really the shift that's really been happening a lot. The core of podcasting distribution and metrics and stuff hasn't changed dramatically, but I would say that the emphasis on programmatic advertising, dynamic ad insertion, those type of things, and then kind of the back end technology of that and the third party technology of that as well, has escalated very quickly as well as things like transcriptions. And the Pandora's box of use cases for transcriptions is in full swing in the podcasting space right now and everybody's running against that. And then of course, there's the Podcast 2.0 project from Mr. Adam Curry that's getting a lot of energy and drive. I'm also part of the Podcast Standards project. That is kind of kind of a new thing in podcasting right now to try and push the adoption of some new tags for RSS, as the industry faced some criticism over the last few years by a large player in the medium about RSS not innovating. I think that RSS can be an open platform that has innovation in it, and kind of dispel that criticism that RSS is an old standard and we need to move on from that and go all proprietary. So that's kind of how I look at the market more broadly right now. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:05:36 And that's awesome because that's actually the entire interview I have planned for here today. Rob Greenlee (Guest) 00:05:42 Well, I think there's a lot of details that we can dig into those things, because there are aspects of AI technology that are coming into podcasting. That's the artificial intelligence stuff. There's brand safety topics, brand suitability, which are hot topics in the medium right now. And then more broadly, the international aspects of podcasting is rapidly picking up steam and there's a whole bunch of stuff we can talk about on that too. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:06:10 To start me off with transcription, because I listened to the New Media Show, and you were at- I think it was Evolutions in Los Angeles, Podcast Movement. I was listening live, wasn't traveling at that particular point. But you and James and Andy Bowers and Todd were talking about the value of transcription and I thought, I'm not going to get into this because it costs money, it costs time. I've had one request for a transcription in 300 episodes. Why should I get into this? And yet you all convinced me that I should get into this. And I'm into this. Rob Greenlee (Guest) 00:06:43 Well, I don't know that the primary thing that we're talking about when we talk about transcriptions is the podcaster transcribing their show and putting that out as part of their show notes or something like that. I think that the transcription discussion is really more centered on getting access to the deep context of what the show is about, and how servers and backend tools can utilize that resource for a variety of purposes. And I think that's what's really happening. I mean, a lot of the big listening platforms are starting to, more and more, pull transcripts of popular shows and starting to utilize that information for various purposes. And so I think that, like, the brand safety, brand suitability project, from like a barometer, and some of these newer platforms that are getting involved in contextual relevancy of audio need those transcripts to be able to fully understand what is happening in the content, right? And then they can apply the AI technology to discover keywords and then map those keywords and create contextual understanding of what's being talked about. So that's one of the use cases. Then there's closed captioning capability in the players, which is more and more, I believe, what the industry needs to be pushing towards for the ADA, the Disabilities Act, kind of obligates us as morally and just legally to get more involved in making accessibility of the platform and the content available to all, and not just have it be limited. So I think that the transcripts have a big role to play in that as well. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:08:20 And Dan Meisner at Bumper has done a little bit of uncovering himself. He's found out that Apple is doing this in the back end and adding little words, keywords and tags that we don't have access to. But it is existing and there and likely being used for search capabilities. Rob Greenlee (Guest) 00:08:37 Yeah, and it's being used for targeting. I think we're also seeing the advertisements being analyzed and contextually understood. So there isn't matchup problems between- especially in these dynamic ad insertion platforms, as well as programmatic, that the matchup of the ad with the content is what everybody wants. Right? And it's based on data. Now granted, that opens kind of a Pandora's box in some regards because then we're analyzing audio on context, which is- it could be utilized as a form of moderation, and looking for copyrighted material, looking for topics that maybe some platforms want to exclude. So that's the issue with technology is that there's a good use and a bad use that always exists. And I think that that's a lot of what we're facing in the world today as our technology gets better, and improves, and becomes more powerful, that we're having moral and ethical questions about how that technology is going to be used and how it's going to impact people's lives. And it can either be a good thing or it can be used for evil. So hopefully we can- as a society, we can value the good uses over the bad uses, but I do believe the bad uses are probably going to come with it as well. And there's going to be some- whether it be a small number of things that go on with these technologies, that may be seen by some as negative use, and has consequences that I think most don't want. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:10:09 Every year I looked for the big buzzword, what is going to be the big thing in podcasting, and made a prediction. I know podcasting is difficult to make predictions, but one year it was privacy. And I'm not sure that at the beginning of 2022 I thought it would be this. But the last six months has all been about brand safety. So why so much focus on brand safety right now? Rob Greenlee (Guest) 00:10:31 Well, to be quite honest about it, I think it's what the brands are worried about. The brands and the advertisers are concerned about their brand safety and they don't want to get caught in a big scandal that tarnishes their brand. And more and more podcasting continues to be, I think, seen as a fairly open topic area. Free speech, I think, reigns pretty well in podcasting still, though I think there is a danger that this technology could change that to some degree, good or bad, depending on how the technology is deployed and how it's utilized. That means that certain topics get campaigns and certain topics don't. It depends. It's like what we're seeing happen at Twitter right now. Brand safety is in the eyes of the brand, right? What type of topics, and what type of content do they feel aligns with them? And so that's what this technology is really trying to solve. It's trying to solve what's the commercial message, and what's the context of the content that that commercial message is being aligned with and seen as supporting? And so I know my co host, Todd Cochrane, he doesn't feel like that there's a real need for this. And to some degree I can appreciate that. If you look at it from a podcaster perspective, it may limit the amount of campaigns that you have on. If you have a controversial show or a show that likes to push the envelope on free speech and things like that, that may limit the amount of economic benefit that can come to a program. So that's the downside of it. The good side of it is that the brands feel safe about certain content and they will probably invest more heavily in shows that they feel safe in. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:12:20 And that's something that we have here at the Sound Off Podcast Network. We have a show or two that lean a little bit on the political fringe side, and on Megaphone the Spotify ad network really doesn't want to have any part of that particular podcast. And then I think back to your co host, Todd Cochrane, whose advice is to grow a set. Rob Greenlee (Guest) 00:12:44 Right. That's not exactly a technology solution to the question, but it harkens back to an earlier era. And I do believe that radio has some lessons that can be applied here. But I think we are in a different time now because technology is enabling things, whether we like it or not, to be able to do things. And people are realizing that that technology is capable of doing things and so now we're doing it. So it's always been the evolution of tech and podcasting has been kind of a slow follower of advanced technology. So I think it comes to the medium, but it's also fairly measured in its implementation because up to this point, a lot of the hosting platforms and listening platforms have been slow to adopt new things, to some degree. They need to be tried and true and everybody feels good about, and they're willing to invest developer resources to make them happen. So that's always been a gate to a lot of these things. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:13:44 I look back at brand safety and think that- that's a radio program director. And every radio station has a program director, but we have no program directors in podcasting. And the only job of a program director is to make sure the morning show gets through to the end. You limit the complaints, you deal with any fallout between sales, the audience, corporate, and we don't have any program directors in podcasting to really, you know, oversee this stuff. So it's all for one and one for all, and you can sort of see where all the friction and the strife will come in under the brand safety tower. Rob Greenlee (Guest) 00:14:20 Yeah, it's a really interesting question. If you back up and you think about the big picture of what's happening with advertising, and you contrast that to maybe what's happening with Twitter, I think it's a really interesting time, because there is some that feel that the context is a risk, and advertisers being concerned about that context is a risk as well. So the evolution of this technology and the implementation of it may push more and more shows away from advertising. And I do believe that that's kind of the trend line that we're going to see with Twitter too. I think Twitter has been primarily an advertising business. But I think the influence that brands have on content, I think is challenging the creators to cope with that. Because I think that there is a desire to talk about cutting-edge issues that maybe the brands don't feel comfortable with. And there's got to be a way to still monetize without having to be beholden to advertisers, right? So that's the blowback that could happen as a result of this kind of contextual moderation. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:15:28 Another one of the big buzzwords from a couple of years ago was "exclusive," and people taking their podcast and going exclusive, so they don't have to deal with many of these brand safety issues that you were talking about. But that hasn't always been a good thing for podcasters to take the show and put it in a subscription model on Apple, or perhaps on Spotify, or maybe just do video on Anchor. There's not a lot of upside for podcasters to be mortgaging a big chunk of their audience in order to go exclusive. Rob Greenlee (Guest) 00:15:58 Right, I think it does cut down, and I think this impacted Joe Rogan early in his transition from Libsyn to Spotify, is that I do believe that he lost some audience in that transition, but I'm fairly confident he's gained that back now. But I think that going exclusive does limit your reach. And that's always been the power of podcasting, is the fact that it's everywhere, and it's everywhere, so you can pick and choose where you want to be, so there's still choice in the process, but nonetheless, go to where listeners are has always been the theme that we've pursued in podcasting. And that's this era of exclusives, as it harkens back to an earlier time of how large media viewed scarcity as a model for success. And I'm not sure that we may be coming back to that again, and kind of more proprietary orientations toward distribution and control of content. And that would be a little bit of a sad state to come back to for podcasting, given where we've come from. But the evolutions of these things could take us to some degree back there. I don't know that you can entirely put RSS back in the bag, or ever in a bag and controlled at that level, because its nature and its very fabric of its existence is based on an open relationship. But I do think that certain large players could play a more significant role in the future for making podcasting, not unlike what YouTube did to video podcasting in the early days of podcasting, when video podcasting and audio podcasting kind of were in parallel in the market in a pretty significant way at the time. And then YouTube launched in 2007 and basically siphoned a lot of that content into a proprietary distribution platform. And I think that there's a little bit of a danger of that in podcasting. "The Netflix of podcasting" has always been this fear that the industry has had. I think it was a couple of years ago Netflix announced that they were going to be handling podcasting, or have podcasts as part of their platform. Everybody was all worried, right? That didn't really turn out to be anything to be worried about. But then of course, there's the YouTube of podcasting may be YouTube. So that's a little bit of a forward-looking statement from me, but it still hasn't happened yet. But I think there's a perception that the YouTube could play a much larger role in podcast listening in the future. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:18:33 Do you get the feeling that there's a lot of people at companies who look around and think that RSS is just a giant pain in the ass, they wish it would go away and they could find a way to harvest the audio and distribute it themselves? Like, I know- I don't know, but I pretty much know- that inside some of these places, they just wish RSS would go away. Rob Greenlee (Guest) 00:18:53 Yeah, well, because it plays into a strategy of scarcity and exclusivity. And I think if you can eliminate something that's considered to be open, then you have more control over where that content goes and how it's consumed. So a large hosting platform, I think if you've been around podcasting a lot, if you know who I'm talking about, has put it out there that RSS is optional, right? Because RSS has not kept up with innovation. And the thought is that proprietary can innovate, right, which is true. Proprietary can do things that are unique to that platform and can push the envelope on capabilities. And I think we've seen that in the past, but I just don't know that it can actually be supplanted. I mean, we've seen discussions about- over the years of, the death of podcasting is right around the corner, or we've peaked, or podcasting is dead. You know, there's been all this stuff that's been talked about for many, many years, but at the end of the day, podcast continues to be what it is. And many people have come and gone that have tried to think that they could control RSS and control podcasting. And the sad fact for them is most of them have failed. So I guess it's a positive vote for the last bastion of open and free distribution of content. And I think we've seen examples of podcasts that have been taken down and because they did something that was- or they talked about something in the show that all the big platforms deemed as inappropriate and not good, they all took it down. But the truth of the matter is that the show never went away, so it was always still available off of a cself-owned, self-hosted RSS feed. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:20:42 And this is the part of the show where I think I have to bring in Todd Cochrane to say that you've gotta get your own dot com. Rob Greenlee (Guest) 00:20:47 Well, there is definitely a strategy for that, and I think that cuts to the core of where this medium came from. And I can't sit here and say that having your own dot com is a bad strategy. And Google is a powerful place to be, so it continues to be an important element of discovery of your podcast. So making sure that you're relevant to Google, and to some degree, like a Bing or other browser kind of search platform, is important for your audience to find you. And more and more we're hearing people say that the number one place people are finding podcasts is on YouTube, which is a little bit of a misdirection of what's really happening over there, but I get people's perception of- that's the primary place people are finding content, just generally right now. But a lot of the programs over there are technically not a strict definition, traditional definition of podcast. They may look like a podcast, they may sound like a podcast, but they may also, more than likely, don't have an RSS feed behind what they're doing. They're exclusive content to YouTube, not unlike what we're doing here. This could be a YouTube video that doesn't have an RSS feed associated with it, but it could be seen as a podcast. And I think if you look at a lot of the shows that are on YouTube, successful ones don't necessarily have RSS feeds. There is some that have figured out a way to balance and be successful in both areas. I think it is possible to succeed as an audio podcast and succeed as a show on YouTube, but that takes a little bit of a different approach than most people are willing to do. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:22:28 So I'm going to turn this show into a YouTube video, where I'm going to just have a still image and I'm going to put it up on my channel. Some people recommend against that. I'm still doing it because even if it's three people, I think that's going to be fine. And actually, I do know that there is two or three people who will consume the podcast just through a still image. So that's two or three more people than we had before. But YouTube has come out with a document- and by the way, if you want this document, it's in the show notes of the episode. It's also on Soundoff.com if you'd like to download a copy of it. But it's quite an extensive document on practices to make your podcast better on YouTube. So when I see a document like this, it sounds like they're making an effort in order to make podcast a little bit bigger, better and stronger, even though it doesn't necessarily involve an RSS feed. Rob Greenlee (Guest) 00:23:17 Right. Well, yeah, there's an opportunity there. And let's be clear, the convergence between YouTube and podcasting has been around a long time, so there's really- in a lot of ways, there's not a lot new going on here from the standpoint of what we see today. But I do believe that there's a possibility that YouTube has bigger plans for their embrace of podcasting, from an audio perspective as well as on the video side. And how those worlds might converge on each other is an opportunity for them. I think they might as well get into it. Plus, you combine that with Google podcasts, which- what I hear is that's going to also be owned by YouTube. So you combine those two together and you have a potential potent mix of driving audience to a podcast. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:24:06 Do you think it's a little bit ironic that Netflix is trying to become the YouTube of podcasting and YouTube is trying to become the Netflix of podcasting? Rob Greenlee (Guest) 00:24:14 Well, I don't know that YouTube is trying to become the Netflix of podcasting, but I suppose they could to some degree, because YouTube does have a subscription, right? So you could make that mapping there. But I don't know that it's clear whether or not YouTube is going to get involved in exclusives, but it's possible. I think content creators may think that all I have to do is upload to YouTube, and I can do a successful podcast. So that's a little bit of the mentality that Spotify has been pushing, for and I think it's a possibility. I think we've seen a little bit of a crack in the armor to some degree with Apple in this pursuit as well, around subscription, paid content, where you just upload directly to them and they take care of everything. But they are expanding that right now with their formerly-known, delegated delivery type of tooling that they're working on now so that content can come from all sorts of other podcast hosts into their platform. And I know Spotify did do a deal back when I was working at Libsyn to make paid premium content available on Spotify through the product that Libsyn has called Glow. But there has been some cooperation between all of the parties involved to just get more content. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:25:29 What I love about you is you've seen so many things come and go, so sometimes I'll come and say, hey, have you seen this great idea? And you're like, yeah, that's been tried twice and it's failed. But we see some big players also trying things. So you can grade Google podcasts and their foray into it, and then at the same time look at Facebook as well. That didn't even last a year, I don't think. Rob Greenlee (Guest) 00:25:48 Yeah, I worked with them pretty extensively on the Facebook side, and I also worked a lot with the Google podcast folks too in the early days of their planning and run up to working with podcasts. Facebook was- I think they had a vision, but I think they lost the vision because they did face some elements of pushback from the industry as some of the things that they wanted to do really kind of broke some of the podcast models around monetization. So it just may have been that the headwinds of doing what they wanted to do were just too significant, and I think they felt under threat from a platform called TikTok and wanted to really focus their resources on trying to fight that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:26:32 In just a second, more with Rob as he evaluates radio's venture into podcasting... so far. And what's the future of live and local in podcasting? And is it something podcasting can wrestle away from radio? And what is this Podcast 2.0 thing? Rob explains all. There's more, including a transcript of this episode, at soundoffpodcast.com. Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:26:56 Transcription for the the Sound Off podcast is powered by Poddin. Your podcast is an SEO gold mine. We help you to dig out. Start your free trial now at Poddin.io. Mary-Anne Ivison (Voiceover) 00:26:56 This podcast supports Podcasting 2.0. If you like this show or getting value from it, hit the boost button now. If you don't have a boost button, you can get one now at newpodcastapps.com. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:27:21 And here we are looking at Podcasting 2.0. What is it? Rob Greenlee (Guest) 00:27:26 What is podcasting 2.0? I think it's thinking of new things in how we utilize the RSS feed. What is that relationship with the listening apps, and how do we get audiences more connected to the shows? I think really at a high level, that's kind of at the core of this. I mean, how do we create, like Adam Curry says, a value for value type of relationship with an audience, right? And I think some of the new tags in the RSS 2.0 or the Podcasting 2.0 project will integrate comments, right? So audience participation in the show will be shared across platforms, listening platforms, so a person that adds their thoughts to a show, or feedback, or a comment, that will get visible across multiple listening apps. And then the whole value for value thing is applying a little bit of the Satoshi connection to the Lightning Network and Bitcoin as you look to the future. And I do believe that Twitter is going to play a significant role in the same- somewhat the same model that I think is being talked about with podcasting. They're definitely going to get involved in transactions more based on Bitcoin. So I think that is a model that hasn't really been talked about. But if you look at what's going on there- so I think that's kind of like the next thing. I'm not necessarily talking about NFTs and that kind of stuff, but I'm just talking about looking at this stuff is almost like a rewards program. So you can exchange miles, like frequent flyer miles, between the listening platforms, the audience and the show, right? So you have this- kind of this value exchange. You deliver terrific content. You vote with your Satoshi's to support the continued creation of that content in a form of a currency that will, over time, go up in value or go down in value. But it creates a much more dynamic relationship with the audience. And I think that's what's really kind of next, is we just need to connect with audiences at a more significant level, and have a conversation with your audience. Now, certain shows are going to be able to take advantage of that. Certain shows are not, depending on their genres, like if you're doing fictional or things like that, it's a little bit of a different relationship. It's not like a program like this, where you could have audiences give us real time feedback or after the show, kind of feedback and thoughts. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:29:59 So this podcast is a part of the network, so if you are using a newer podcast app, you can do so right now. And if you don't want to support this guy Cundill, because he's a big windbag, you can just go over to the new media show and support Rob and Todd. Rob Greenlee (Guest) 00:30:12 Those two windbags. So if you like to support windbags, there's plenty of us out there that you can support. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:30:21 There's a bit of an educational piece to podcasting. I mean, for years it was like teaching people how to download a podcast, and now I feel as though with Podcasting 2.0, there's going to be a few more educational pieces on maybe what sort of app you use. It feels like we're always educating and we should be entertaining, though. Rob Greenlee (Guest) 00:30:38 Well, it depends on who you are in the medium and what kind of show you do. You and I do shows about audio and about podcasting, and you have a strong connection with the radio side too. And so that is our orientation here. And I do think that podcasters need to be thinking, continuing education, because that's the world that I live in too, is I'm constantly trying to keep up with and constantly getting outreach and pinged by new startups, new platforms, new ideas, constantly coming into this medium. To be quite frank, many of them don't get much traction because I think that the podcasting ecosystem is really only interested in things that actually work and that drive value. And that is sometimes a difficult thing to determine early on in the life of an idea because it hasn't been put out there very much. So you don't really know if it's going to work or not, if it's a good idea or a bad idea. Like you said earlier, I've seen a lot of stuff come and go, and things work and not work, but that can also just be about timing too. So it just may not be the proper time. The generation that's coming up- I'd say that the other big thing that's coming is called Gen Z. If you look at what the trend lines are, that Gen Z generation is going to be very impactful on the future of podcasting. And I do know that all those listeners that started listening like you and I did in the early days, we're getting older and thus we're seeing the older end of the spectrum of podcast listeners and creators start to increase more and more, because that's what happens. People get older. So I'd say that's the two ends. I think that the middle age type thing, like the 30's to 40's type range, I think is not as big because there's not as many people in that age group. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:32:36 How does all this sort of pertain to privacy? I was going to ask, because that was sort of a big thing in 2019, 2020, when we were talking about attribution when it came to advertising and privacy. And I think Gen X, and to a large extent Millennials, have some consciousness around privacy, and I'm not sure that Gen Z does. So when you mentioned that this generation takes over, that maybe the definition of privacy is going to change. They seem to be totally fine with an AI image as their profile pic. Who knows what country that's going to and what artwork was stolen in order to create it. I also don't think they really care about AI voices. I mean, if you look at TikTok for example. Rob Greenlee (Guest) 00:32:36 Well, does anybody really care about AI voices is the other question, right? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:33:19 As a voice over person, I do a little bit. Rob Greenlee (Guest) 00:33:22 Right. But yeah, I agree with your premise. The Gen Z folks are- I see it as a real opportunity for podcasting as you look to the future, because of the values that that generation has, and what they could bring to this medium. And it's authenticity, it's being real, it's being really all-in and embracing of technology, because they've grown up with it, right? And accepting of the good and the bad of technology, at a level that many of the other generations are, I think, less accepting of. So I just have a lot of feeling of alignment between the early days of podcasting and Gen Z. The early days of podcast was about community and connection. And I think one of the things that's really fascinating about the Gen Z generation coming in is how podcasting has, especially over the last few years, has been such a mental health opportunity for that age group to connect with others in ways that the pandemic and kind of lockdowns and things like that have had a dramatic impact on the Gen Z's development. As a young person, that is so driven, you know, I think back to my youth, my early twenty's and that time frame, and how important social connections were to my personal development, and to just think about how that's impacted all those Gen Z's orientation. And now they're so dependent on technology now, their mobile phones and to connect with others. But it's also caused, I think, some mental health challenges for that generation that I think they are grappling with right now and continue to grapple with. And technology is really their only option at this point. So they're figuring it out. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:35:06 I've got three Gen Z boys between the ages of 20 and 22 right now. And I think their development, social development, educational, career, all of it has been stunted by the Pandemic. They turned four year arts programs into six, six and a half years in order to get through it on Zoom, just doing remote learning and, and all sorts of things. And yes, I still have kids in university six years later who are still trying to catch up from that period. You're exactly right. Rob Greenlee (Guest) 00:35:34 They're going to use this medium as a way to educate themselves, to share their passions at a level, I think, that the technology needs to align with. And I think the Podcast 2.0 is going to increasingly enable that to fit with what the Gen Z wants. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:35:52 For the average podcast listener who's just listening to this right now, what is something that they can do in order to participate in Podcasting 2.0? Rob Greenlee (Guest) 00:36:00 Well, I think go download the Podcast 2.0 listening apps that embrace the new tags. Like the one I'm using is Fountain, and I don't know which one you're using, but there's a handful of apps out there. I don't have the list of all the apps in front of me. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:36:15 NewPodcastApps.com, I think, is the website, and I'm using Fountain as well. That's my gateway Podcasting 2.0 app. Rob Greenlee (Guest) 00:36:22 Yeah. So I think if we can build some popularity of those apps, it'll go a long way toward putting pressure on the the more mainstream apps out there, like the Overcast and Spotify and even to some degree Apple, if we can get them to adopt some of these new tags. I think the industry has been a little bit beholden to Apple for far too long to dictate what capabilities RSS brings to the medium. And I think it's time for us to kind of take that back as an industry and say, this is what we want to do as an industry. Now, obviously, Apple is still going to continue to have their, kind of, more proprietary view on tags, and I think that there's no reason why we can't support that as well. It's just- let's try and think of tags, and more kind of creative ways, that we can solve the connection and build community in podcasting and also build probably a new monetization approach that is less dependent on advertising. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:37:23 So you'll have to catch me up just a little bit, because Apple has an API that a lot of podcast apps can attach themselves to, and they could draw in those shows. So, for instance, like an Overcast. So if you put your podcast up on Apple, it will populate to a bunch of other podcast apps as well through the API. But then the Podcast Index has now been created to kind of counter that. Do I have that right? Rob Greenlee (Guest) 00:37:47 Well, I think it's kind of like a backup option. So I think there's been many in the medium that have been fearful that Apple will change their mind about making that publicly accessible, that API, and that there needs to be a backup. I know Todd Cochrane has been doing the same thing with the Blubrry platform for a long time. He's been keeping a comprehensive catalog of the whole medium, and I think that has always been kind of like a backup plan. And the Podcast Index project is another alternative to that. So it's another reflection of the industry taking its own future in its own hands, and not being dependent on a large tech company to drive all the innovation and the accessibility of the medium across all these other listening apps. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:38:34 You're an excellent person to ask this question to, because you've got a background in radio. You had a national show which was up on satellite for a while, and you've also appeared at the Conclave, you and I were on stage together, I think, a few years ago talking about podcasting and it's all of its possibilities for radio. And this was sort of right around the time when radio was going to do this little bit of a splash, or a jump, into the podcast pool and we watched it happen. So between the years of about 2017 and 2020, how would you score and look back on that time when radio began to jump into the podcast space? Rob Greenlee (Guest) 00:39:06 I mean, I guess there's two ways that I can present that. One is 100% frank honesty, or I can present it as kind of like a hopeful perspective. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:39:16 I think both answers, by the way, are correct, because depending on which company did what. Rob Greenlee (Guest) 00:39:21 Yeah, right. So I think that there's definitely been a recognition that podcasting is probably the future of many of those companies, at least on the radio side. But holding on to that broadcast tower is something that I think is a culture thing. It's a culture thing. I think it's also a practical recognition that their business continues to be funded primarily from the broadcast tower. But yet that's slowly slipping away, and it's been slowly slipping for a long time. And I think the industry has had time to make a shift to more on-demand. And the live part is going to be- I think it's a little bit up in the air right now. That and also local. Radio is really owned local, for most of its existence, and podcasting to some degree threatens that. And then also- is also at the same time, an opportunity for local. So I felt that way for a long time. I've done panels at Podcast Movement on local podcasting for years now, because I've always wanted to keep that flame alive. As podcast audiences grew, the opportunity for local podcasting was going to grow. So it's all a matter of scale with local podcasting. And just to be clear, what I mean by local podcasting is like a company like Citycast. I'm sure you're familiar with that project, but it's creating content, podcast content, about local communities and local cities and things like that, to support those. And there has been many in the industry that have launched shows to support activities and things going on in cities like Detroit and others around the country. So this isn't kind of a new idea, but I just wonder if radio, as you looked, like, over maybe the next five to ten years, really start to expand into local more. The challenge that I think is, and we saw this with the Pandemic, was so many local businesses were forced out of business because of the shutdowns, that the opportunity for monetization and financial support of local content has been diminished quite a bit. So that would be my biggest worry. Is there the financial resource to support local content? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:41:44 Well, there's a follow up question to it, because when we talk about Podcasting 2.0 and maybe a local tag that goes into the podcast. So what that means is that I can wake up in the morning and type in Montreal, and get podcasts from within my neighborhood. And also, to your whole point when you were at Spreaker and really big on the live podcasting, maybe there are some live podcasts in Montreal that are going on right now that I can listen to. Rob Greenlee (Guest) 00:42:10 And I think that that clearly is the opportunity of all this, and Citycast is an example of that that's pushing forward out there. And yeah, I think, you know, the whole kind of lit tag that's in the new spec with the Podcast 2.0, of notifying the players that a show has gone live, I think has a certain amount of connection to that potential opportunity, and I would love to see more local content be available. I guess my question is of the shift towards more national and global content. Are people as interested? Is the question, and is it a generational thing, and is Gen Z interested in local? I think that's a question I don't have an answer for. Are they so plugged in to the internet that they don't see local, they only see global, because that's kind of what is happening more than anything. But is local going to become more important to them because of that connection? So it's an interesting question. I think the Sounds Profitable folks or the Edison folks need to do some research on that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:43:16 There's nothing like giving Tom and Brian things to do. I love that. Did you get a Mac? Rob Greenlee (Guest) 00:43:22 I did. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:43:23 What happened? Were you kidnapped? Were you brainwashed? What happened? Rob Greenlee (Guest) 00:43:28 Well, this new role that I started at Podbean, is that the whole Podbean is on Macs. So I didn't want to be the only odd man out that was only on Windows. Though I have lots of Windows devices, two Surface computers. I've got a desktop. But I do own an iPhone and I have had an iPad and I have an Apple Watch. So I'm living a world of being ambidextrous, I guess is the term that I like to use. It's one of those things that it's always been kind of like in the back of my mind. I need to become a Mac user too. It feels like the right thing to do. So to kind of fill out my technology embrace. I do own two Android tablets, so I'm fully embracing all of the ecosystems that exist and trying to be knowledgeable about it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:44:19 We all have a moment where we have to make the jump, and I- well, you worked for Microsoft at one point, right? Rob Greenlee (Guest) 00:44:24 For seven years, right. Yeah. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:44:26 So how hard was it? It wasn't too hard to make the switch? Rob Greenlee (Guest) 00:44:30 No, actually, my experience over the years with the Mac, there has been times when I've had to interface with Macs, so. And then I think that the years of having my iPhone I still have an iPhone ten, so that gives you some idea of how long I've been an iPhone user. But I did spend a lot of time with Windows phone, so that was part of my job when I was working at Microsoft, is as we went from the Zune HD, we transitioned out of that and kind of I became more part of the Xbox team, and then transitioned to working with Windows Media Center, and then started to migrate the Zune platform over to Windows phone and Windows mobile, and worked on that project for quite a while. So I still have some old Windows phones in my drawer over here. So I was a big fan of the Windows phone platform. It's unfortunate what happened to that, because I think it was a very simple and powerful platform. It was built on the vision of the Zune HD, and it really had an interface unlike anything that we have today. Other than Windows. I would say Windows still carries a lot of the Metro experience that was developed by the Zune team and was rolled out into Windows. So all the millions of people that are on Windows today have incorporated Zune into their experience. They just may not realize it, but it's kind of an interesting history. If I think back to it, I had a great time working on Zune. It was like a startup company inside of Microsoft, and got a chance to work on bringing podcasting to that platform, and then also worked on bringing the TV and movie store to Zune and then over to Xbox as well for a while. So I worked on both. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:46:13 As we record this we're in December, and it's inevitable that people have asked you for your predictions for 2023. Have you made any or are you past that? Rob Greenlee (Guest) 00:46:22 I think a lot of what we've talked about in the show up to this point are going to be big factors in 2023. I tend to- when I talk about the medium, I do generally talk about forward looking concepts. So I think programmatic monetization is being rolled out by all the major platforms right now. Sure, some of the platforms have a little head start on that because they got started earlier. I worked on programmatic back in 2017 when I was working for Spreaker, so programmatic to me is a little bit old hat, but I would say programmatic advertising is rolling out big time. I think this brand safety, brand suitability, using AI technology, is going to be everywhere here soon as well. That's going to bring good and bad with the moderation stuff. And then increasingly we're going to see more crackdown around copyrighted music. I think that is actually in full motion already, but I think it's going to ramp up. And the danger that I see with that, is that people start abandoning music and podcasts. I've been worried about that for a long time. And then I think the other big thing that's coming is more advanced audio processing capabilities, from the standpoint of sound sweetening and recording capability. Like the Mono device out of Norway is a little bit of a glimpse of the future of audio recording, and what might be possible with creating very high quality audio without big boom microphones like this. But it does create a situation where people have to think differently about how they create content. Because I was thinking about it too, is that you and I have these big boom microphones and we have this feeling that we can't create quality content unless we have these big boom microphones. So it's like your A-game comes when you pull up the SM7B or the mic that you have there. Can I actually create quality content with a clip-on lavalier? I mean, that's a perception issue that we have to get over, because I think that it will be possible to create this quality of audio in a little clip-on thing that transmits it wirelessly to a voice processing box, like a Pneumono type of a device that utilizes AI technology and spatial audio technology. And the whole Dolby Atmos technology is going to be more and more widely adopted in podcasting. And so that will enable us to record audio in a lot of different situations, a lot of different places that we've all liked to do. But it's like, we've been hesitant to be able to do that because of the concern for audio quality. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:48:58 You know what, Rob, I think you'd be a really good program director for podcasting. Rob Greenlee (Guest) 00:49:03 You think I would, huh? My new title at Podbean is Senior VP of Content and Partnerships. So that's kind of what I do. I work with all levels of content creators, and I do think a lot about content because I spent a lot of years creating content, you know, and I go to events and I talk about- I can basically talk about any topic and podcasting and because I've been through it before, you know, experienced it myself and talked to many people about all these issues for many years, as you might imagine. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:49:33 So for people who get to a new job, they look at it and they're pretty excited about the one or two things that they're going to bring to the table or get working on right away. Can you share what you're most excited about about working at Podbean for the next 365 days? Rob Greenlee (Guest) 00:49:48 Well, I mean, it gets back to me coming in and helping the current owners and the current team reach their goals that they have, that were established before I even showed up. So, I mean, I'm certainly going to bring a different outlook over the long term, but in the short term, I'm here to help them reach the goals that they've already set for themselves. And one of the key things is kind of through this economic downturn to keep the business healthy and to keep working with shows, kind of rolling out this new programmatic platform that can better drive some revenue into shows that are on the platform. And then to expand more into kind of the enterprise of podcasting, whether it be corporate internal communications, which Podbean kind of specializes in and has a very robust tool. I've known about it for years. Blubrry and Libsyn have Pro Tools, but Podbean has emphasized these corporate internal network kind of podcasting abilities, and has an app and things like that that is very robust and built out. So working in that area, working with big companies, too, is important. But at the end of the day, Podbean came out of the era of the indie content creator, and not unlike Libsyn in its orientation towards the market, but we are all about indie creators and trying to support them in the best way possible. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:51:14 Rob, thanks so much for doing this and taking the time to talk podcasting. It is always a joy to talk to you. Rob Greenlee (Guest) 00:51:20 All right, well, it's always great to be on your program, Matt, too. You bring a terrific perspective to the medium from, you know, a person that's coming out of radio and I always appreciate that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:51:30 There will come a day when I'll have spent more time podcasting than in radio. Rob Greenlee (Guest) 00:51:33 Yes, well, you're probably getting very close to that now, I would imagine. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:51:36 Still a few years to go, but yeah. Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:51:37 The Sound Off Podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski. Social media by Courtney Krebsbach. Another great creation from the Soundoff Media Company. There's always more at soundoffpodcast.com.

The last time we had Dani Stover on the show, she was between opportunities and wondering what her relationship with radio should be shaped like. It turns out that she has answered that question and the answer is a new role in the evenings on 640 Toronto. Over the last while she has been producing alongside daytime host Kelly Cutrara and now Dani takes control of 7-10pm in the region on 640 Toronto, 900 CHML Hamilton and 980 CFPL in London. In this episode, Dani and I dive into what we expect to hear in the evenings in Toronto, why this position is the best one for her right now and what we can expect when she launches the new 640 Toronto Podcast in the coming weeks or months. We also dug into the silliness of social media and what constitutes the right amount of usage for her needs. In addition, Dani is also launching her own podcast! On February 22, 2023, she'll start bringing you updates on the biggest stories in Toronto from her show, Today In TO. It's a great way to stay caught up amid the hustle and bustle of Canada's biggest city. Check out the trailer below: When Life Gives You Parkinsons Shoutout to Larry Gifford who is the lead of News/Talk content at Corus. His When Life gives You Parkinsons Podcast deserve your attention and I would like to personally thank him for inspiring me to do the Sound Off Podcast. His Radio Stuff podcast came before this one and encouraged me to start this. ~Matt Transcript: Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:01 We had Dani Stover on the show 18 months ago in an episode called Sunshine and Shade. Dani was in between gigs at the time, and the episode we did was super refreshing and revealing. She was candid about her views about radio and the relationship she has with it. Yes, I know it sounds very silly when you put radio in those terms, but Betty Davis once told Larry King that it was not possible for him to stay married with a mistress like broadcasting always getting in the middle. For the record, Larry King was married eight times to seven women. Anyhow, Dani's back to refresh us all once again. She spent the last little while working at Corus-owned 640 in Toronto as a producer, and is now back on the air as the evening host. The show also airs at Corus stations in Hamilton and London. Dani Stover returns to the Sound Off podcast from her home studio in Toronto. Do you remember what we spoke about last time? Dani Stover (Guest) 00:00:57 I do. I've actually listened to that episode a couple of times. I think when it comes up, when you post it, I'll usually give it a little listen, and it's an episode that I quite like. And I can't say that about every episode that I've been on of someone else's podcast. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:10 I like it because there was a lot of honesty in it, and a lot of people do not want to come on this show when they are in between jobs because they don't have anything to currently talk about. They're only talking about the past, and sometimes they don't really know exactly where they're going next. So they don't want to jeopardize that, because some prospective employer could be listening and saying, well, that's not exactly what we want to do. So thank you for your bravery coming on at that point. Dani Stover (Guest) 00:01:33 Yeah, I think at that point, I honestly didn't care anymore. I was just like, you know what? This is me. I can't pretend that this isn't me, and this is how I'm showing up. So at that time, I had just- I think I was, like, in early stages of maybe getting a contract position at 640 Toronto. So that was very behind the scenes. But jumping into that role was interesting, and I learned so much. And I say that I filled out my producer bingo card, because I think I actually produced for almost everybody- or was asked to produce for almost anybody- on the Corus network for a while, and it was really fun. And then just recently, I found myself from behind the scenes to behind the microphone hosting my own show. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:02:11 I love that. And without really knowing, I saw the press release for you getting the new show, and I thought, oh, I just assumed she'd been out of radio all that time. And I didn't really sort of know as much about the fact that you were producing all these shows. And I have this down as a question. So what does producing a show for talk radio today entail? Dani Stover (Guest) 00:02:30 It depends on the host. But I was working a lot with Kelly Catrera and she's wonderful, she's a pro. Showing up and working for her every day was kind of like watching a master class, because she puts on this live show for 3 hours every day, and she's got a good variety of guests and a good variety of topics she likes to cover. So basically we'd get together and determine kind of the day's stories. I'd look through news, I'd send her like, hey, how about this guy? Or how about this gal? Or how about this person on this story? And so we're just kind of piecing together how the day will look. Trying to book guests. It's a lot of emailing, it's a lot of back and forth, it's a lot of, send me your number. Do you want to do Zoom? What time can you do? And fitting things together. It's a lot of schedule math, and then once you're done, you got to do it all again the next day. So it's kind of that loop. However, there are parts of the day that are very tantalizing when you get like a, yep, sure, can do it. And when that happens, it can feel very triumphant, maybe is the word I'm looking for. But it was fun. I loved it. It felt like I was really sinking my teeth into something. And I could also hide behind the host a little bit, so I felt very protected. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:03:32 Tell me a little bit about who's at home and who's not at home, because I've completely lost track about who's working from a home studio and who's actually working at the main studio. Dani Stover (Guest) 00:03:41 We're trying to bring people back. So- We. Like I have no control. They are trying to bring people back to the office. So for me personally, I am in Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday to start. I do have a great home studio. For someone like Kelly, she would be encouraged to come in Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday as well. But she had been working from home the whole time. So were many of the hosts, as far as I know. I've seen the back of John Oakley at the studio, so he's there. But I think there's kind of a hybrid expectation right now and that seems to be working for people. I can't see people coming back full time. It's just it's too nice not having to go to the office. It's weird. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:04:20 So I had lunch with somebody in Winnipeg yesterday who is working as well, at Corus, and saying I think we're going to be moving to some form of hybrid. But I'm trying to think, what's the upside for the show? What's the upside for the host? What's the upside/downside for the producer? It's weird because we've all gotten so used to it. And how long does it really take to get used to something? It takes about 1000 days. And here we are. We are 1000 days past the start of the pandemic. So we've all gotten really, really entrenched with home studios and working from home. And I wonder what that relationship is like, traveling all the way into work. And when you get there, I'm thinking, what else can we do to utilize that space? Dani Stover (Guest) 00:05:01 Yeah. So Corus Key, where 640 Toronto lives, is a beautiful facility. Like, ho-lee. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:05:10 It has a slide. Dani Stover (Guest) 00:05:11 It has the slide, it has the living wall. It has the beautiful view of Sugar Beach. It's embarrassingly lovely. It does feel a little sterile, and right now it's kind of empty. However, because I've been developing this new show and I've been working collaboratively with other folks who are showing up at the office every day, it does kind of feel nice. Like, it feels like, oh, this allows us to work together. It allows us to be like, yo, how about this? What do you think of this idea? And not have that be in an email. There's a lot of things that- because I did both, I worked remotely. Even prior to the pandemic, I was doing the BlogTO podcast fully from home. So I had my home studio set up and then I got this job, was onboarded remotely. Didn't meet Kelly Catrera, worked with her for a year and a half. Only met her for the first time like two weeks ago. So, like, I was fully remote and I loved it. I felt my work life balance was nice. Didn't mean that I was not sitting at my computer like an ogre at 06:00 P.m.. Like, please email me back. That still happened. But going into the office, I think I felt very exposed. I felt very like, how do I show up here? Do I look the same? Like, I just- all, a bunch of weird things went through my head. So I do think there's a benefit to working in the office. There's that collaborative energy, I think, for the show that we're making right now, which is, Let's Talk with Dani Stover, my first plug. It is very collaborative. There is that kind of creativity. And we do benefit from being in the same space so that we can bounce things off of each other. I love working at home. I love my cozy house. I love that my dog has me home all day. And having said that, I think it's beneficial for me to have the option to do both. And I live 15 minutes away from Corus Key. Life is good. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:06:50 I love that. And how long into the conversation with Kelly did you get before you both realized it was the first time you'd met each other? Dani Stover (Guest) 00:06:59 Well, we knew. We were like, I think we're going to meet this week, over text. And then we saw each other. We did the classic, oh, my God, I love your pants. Oh my God, you're so tiny. You're just the woo girls. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:07:12 You're not like your profile picture. Dani Stover (Guest) 00:07:14 Which is all business, or hands on face. The classic like, you can trust me, the fists under the chin look. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:07:21 And here you go. I get the press release, and off you go with a brand new evening show goes from seven to ten. And I don't want to call it a best of, but it does deal with a lot of the content from earlier in the day. Somebody referenced it as a best of, and I feel that's not appropriate and it kind of cheapens what it is, because your news content is constantly evolving, so you're just dealing with that evolved content at that time. Dani Stover (Guest) 00:07:43 I'm not mad about a best of. It's funny, I kind of set it up similar way of, like, it's a clip show, but don't call it a clip show. We're pumping out content all day long. It's actually amazing. I know radio gets a bad rap. I know talk radio, whatever. I even felt weird about talk radio at the beginning of my career, and then I've naturally kind of found my way into this space and I love it. I had a friend say to me, like, oh, you're working in talk radio. That must be so boring. And I'm like, My brother, I've never been bored a day in my life here. And it's true. So this show allows me to listen to content from throughout the day. I have- my magic power is being able to add context, is being able to sit with it, think about it, turn it over in my brain. And then somehow they've trusted me to attach my opinion or attach my thoughts or just lay it out for people. And I've had to really lean into the trust that I have for myself. It's maybe a slightly more conservative station than I am. So there are challenges, but also, like I said, we're pumping out content, we're talking to amazing guests, there are opinions, there are conversations, there are discussions happening every minute of the day. And so it is a best of show. This is some of the best stuff that we've put out during the day, and we think you should hear it again, because it's still in the cycle or there's a new way to approach it. And so that tickles my little producer brain too, because it allows me to ask the question, okay, well, if this is true, then what else is true? Or, okay, well, you said that, and you said that. Well, let's lay out both of those conversations side by side and give you kind of a cross section of what this topic is really about. And so I love doing that stuff. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:09:18 I hear the words talk radio, and the only thing I think in my head are old white men banging the table, talking about something way too conservative, yelling and saying, we'll come back after the commercials with more of this. And I don't think that's where it is today. The bulk of the core audience or the targeted audience sort of sits in the millennial zone, and they want stories. It feels closer to stories than it does to talk radio. Dani Stover (Guest) 00:09:43 The thing about talk radio- I've always loved talk radio. I love the way a voice sounds over a phone on the radio. There's just something about that that I can't really explain, but it's like brown noise for my brain. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:09:57 Connectivity. You love the connectivity. Dani Stover (Guest) 00:09:58 Yes, I've always loved it and once I got into working for Kelly, for example, I was like, wow, this is fast. I went from complaining about doing the BlogTO podcast and having to book one guest a day. And mind you, I didn't have as much support to booking, like, eleven guests a day. It all happening live. There's no editing, there's no you screw up a word, you screw up a word, and that might carry on through. It's very raw. It's very real. It's out there. It made me very uncomfortable, and I spoke that aloud. I said, you know what, I can't do what Kelly's doing. I can't do what Alex Pearson is doing. I'm not there. So it's fast paced. There are stories being told all the time. We told an incredible story where a listener of Kelly's- actually, it's sad, he died over the summer. It was medically induced assisted death. He included her in his will and left her $640. And this is just somebody that called the station periodically that was a fan of her show, that felt connected by her voice over the radio, and felt that connection so much that he included her in his will. It's an incredible story. And those are the kinds of stories that are being told. Those are the kinds of connections being made right now with talk radio. And talk radio just kind of gets that, like, oh, it's conservative men banging on a desk. And it is. But it's so much more. And I think it happens so fast that we forget to slow down. We forget to say, hey, Ruth, radio, you're done. As soon as the microphone is off, you're done. You might never revisit that amazing break again. You might never speak to that cool guest again. And we have the opportunity here with Let's Talk to bring some of that back, to slow it down, to really dig in, and to explore some of those stories in a bit of a different way. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:11:37 Tell me about being a producer where you have to track people down. You mentioned, oh, I only have to get one or two people. Now I got to get ten or eleven people. People don't answer their phones. They likely will respond on text. If you leave a voicemail that goes nowhere. Like, how do you reach people? Facebook? Dani Stover (Guest) 00:11:54 I can find anyone. Sometimes Facebook, I mean, yes, I've gotten a few guests over Facebook, for sure. This is what I love about it, though. It feels like I'm a private investigator, and I'm like, all right, who do you want? Okay, Nick Nurse. Well, that's a big one. All right. Do I have any contacts? Do I know people? That's a big example- by the way, I got him- but you can find pretty much anyone on the Internet. I know not everyone wants to hear that, but there's clues. You're always looking for clues. So if there's a great story in the Globe and Mail or CBC, and this is how we kind of operate. There are people, sources that journalists use in their papers. Those people, once they're quoted, kind of have an idea that the radio stations will start calling them or the TV stations will start calling them, and then they're pretty responsive. I was surprised when I first got this job. I was like, Are you kidding me? I have to wake up at six, email someone by seven to ask them to come on a show for nine? I would say no all day. And I was like, well, here we go. The worst they can say is no. I'm just going to try. I'm gobsmacked by the amount of people who said yes, the amount of people who are open and available and flexible. People will say yes. People- you can find anybody. And if they want to share their story, they will say yes, and they'll show up and bless them for it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:13:12 After years of being in a radio station scenario, asking people to come into the station or to appear on the radio station, very easy. And then I got into the podcast world, and I saw there was a service called Interview Connections at Podcast Movement, and I asked her, who can't get a guest? And she said, you'd be surprised. It's not radio. It's different. I mean, appearing on a podcast is like, well, what's your podcast? Where is it? How many downloads? Is it even relevant? But everybody knows the radio station, and everybody knows the impact of an appearance on said radio station, and that has not changed. Dani Stover (Guest) 00:13:46 I got to do some freelance work for Arlene Bynan, who is Chef's Kiss. I love Arlene Bynan, and I've been listening to her for years. And then I got to actually, I'm telling you, my bingo card, I've produced for everybody in the past year and a half. So I did some work for her with Sirius. SiriusXM, I mean, 640 Toronto. People say yes. It's lovely. We've got a great kind of ecosystem of people we pull from. And people, like I said, want to be on the radio in Toronto. Sirius is North American. So it was interesting to dip my toe into that world for a few weeks, and it was like, I've never had the press office for The New York Times and The Washington Post get back to me so quickly, and it was just like, ooh, dopamine! Yay! Matt Cundill (Host) 00:14:27 You mentioned about Kelly's show being I got the impression it was noisy, busy, a little bit loud. But you get to do seven to ten, a little bit quieter. You can take a deeper breath of fresh air, repurpose. It feels a little bit quieter, and you can add a little more perspective in that time slot than you could earlier in the day. Dani Stover (Guest) 00:14:47 And just the nature of the show. I'm glad you say that, because that's how I want it to come across. It is an evening show. I got to assume people are busy. I got to assume people aren't listening to the whole show unless you're my mom. So it is, it is a bit of a slower pace. It is a bit more of a, let's sit with this, kind of energy. I'm also kind of a silly person. I don't take myself too seriously, and I don't say that as in other people do, and I'm better because I don't. It's just, that's the kind of energy we're bringing to the show. Sometimes I'll be like, I don't know what I think of this. Or sometimes I'll tell a joke. And honestly, it feels like I'm writing a tight five every night. So there is kind of that comedy element, quote unquote, gentle comedy. However, I am in the office most of the time, ten to six, and by about 04:00, I'm internally freaking out. I'm just like, all right, we're up against the clock. We've got to essentially package eleven or twelve original breaks using other stuff. I'm listening to audio all day. I'm thinking, okay, does this fit with this? Is this the best representation of this topic I want to talk about? There's a point in my day where I have to stop looking and I have to start working. And so there is a bit of a mad dash, and so I'm glad the energy comes through, that it's a little bit softer, it's a little bit slower, it's a little bit quieter as an energy. But there are times during the day where I'm like, there's no time. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:16:08 I always found that the complicated thing about doing any show in the evening is that you're waiting around all day to go to work. So you're living with this content in your head for the bulk of the day, and it's probably the most exhausting shift from that perspective. Dani Stover (Guest) 00:16:22 It's the worst. Of course I did. I produced for On Point, and Glenn Bergonier, who's my producer now, who's amazing, he was producing in that slot. We actually applied for the same job. I think that's the job I had applied for the last time we spoke on this podcast, was this evening producer job. I filled in, I thank Gord every day. I didn't get it. I wouldn't be here if I got that job. I think I'd be lying on the floor in the kitchen, because it is. You're waiting all day. If you don't take a break, you won't get a break. And I think that's the thing about working from home and doing that particular shift, too. You are waiting all day or you're doing stuff in the afternoon to try and make your evening easier, and then you're still on the hook for the evening. So it's a ten to ten shift. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:17:05 I would need a 15 minute nap at some point. Dani Stover (Guest) 00:17:08 And I said, this is a lesson for me personally, and who was ever listening out there, because I've had to work on this: Boundaries. You're not putting up a wall. You're not saying, don't ever come here. You're just saying, listen, here's the door. My door, for a lot of people, the past year and a half was, I'm enough. I'm doing enough. I know my worth and what I bring to the table, but here's what I'm not going to do. And so the conversation came up, would you be interested in doing an evening show? Are you interested in hosting live? All of these things came up because I will say- braggy brag- I was good at what I did, and that showed up. People noticed. And one of those people who noticed was Amanda Cupido, who's the new director of Talk at 640 Toronto. She really wanted me to stay. She really wanted to find a place for me. And so she threw a bunch of stuff at the wall, you know, bless her heart. She was like, how about this? How about this? How about this? And I was like, I don't want to work evenings and weekends. I don't want to be on air in that capacity. I don't want to be a news anchor. I don't want to be a fill-in producer. It sounds like I'm saying no a lot, but these were all exercises in me setting a boundary, because I knew. I knew myself, I knew how I work. I know I'm a great employee, but there's things that I'm not going to do because I also love myself and I love my balance and I love my little life. And there's just things I've been there, done that, bought the T-shirt, and the T-shirt sucks. So I did settle many boundaries, and I think it led me to this nice place where I feel like I can work my ten to six shift and put on an evening show. And I feel good about that. I feel like I've said no to the right things, which means saying yes to the right things. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:18:49 So we've had Amanda on this show before. She is a breath of fresh air for the entire, I guess, what was the radio industry, but it's now, I think, more sort of a lot of audio, especially when you do as many podcasts as you do. But what's Amanda like? How awesome is she? Dani Stover (Guest) 00:19:04 She's cool. The first time we ever met, I was like, who is this. Who's Amanda Cupido? She's podcasting space? I hadn't heard of her. We had our first Zoom, kind of get-to-know-ya. And throughout that conversation, it was hilarious to me how many things kept coming up of like, oh, me too, me too. You worked with them? Me too. Oh, you do this? I do as well. Where do you live? Oh, my God. Just blocks. Not going to lie. We both were like, had our Chihuahuas sitting on our laps in this meeting and both at one point held our Chihuahuas up to the screen and we're like, we are essentially the same person. That was our first meeting. I've never had a boss- and I've had amazing bosses. I've had shitty bosses. I've never had a boss that I see myself reflected in, and it's, dare I say, a game changer. You felt like this, Matt, before. You got a boss that you probably were like, yeah, I can see that trajectory for me. Not to say I want to be Director of Talk at all, but it was just nice. I was like, oh, okay. We're similar speeds, we're similar energies, similar values, similar trajectories to get here. And here we are, we found ourselves in the same room. How can we work together? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:20:14 Do you look at the show as a bit of a regional show too? Because you're on in Hamilton in London as well. I mean, you're looking at a pretty wide area. Not just Toronto. Dani Stover (Guest) 00:20:21 Yeah, that's been a bit of a- not a struggle, but just something that I've had to think about. And going back to the Sirius producing, that was another kind of like, shifting my mindset of like, we're not just talking to the GTA, we're talking to North America. So what is North America talking about? So this show is, yeah, also London and Hamilton. I do work with producers there as well, and it's been great. It's a lovely kind of collaborative effort where I look at their rundowns in the morning, I see what they're talking about, I'll say, okay, I want this and this and this. And then they'll send me audio. And I'll use audio from Hamilton. I'll use audio from London as well. They have their own roster of amazing hosts. And I am- when I'm looking for stories, I'll have that in mind of like, okay, does this transfer to Hamilton and London? We did a story yesterday, for example, about violence in schools, a very Toronto story. It involved Mayor John Tory. It involved the Toronto School Board. It was on the Alex Pearson show. So that's a very Toronto centric show. But I figured violence in school is certainly something that exists everywhere. So that is something where with a little bit of context, with a little bit of juj-ing, we call it the treatment. What's the treatment I'm going to put on it, that's that magic power of context and being able to bring people from hamilton and London into a story that might be Toronto centric, but definitely has moving parts that would apply to them as well. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:21:34 In just a second, we're going to dig into the social media side of things, and maybe we'll take a glance at the comments section. Oh, yeah, the comment section. Pro tip, never read the comment section. She's also going to tell us what led her to doing the very show she wants to do right now. And 640 Toronto has a new podcast on the way that's in the planning stages. Dani is going to be hosting it and cutting us in on what's in store. There's more. There's always more. Including a transcript of all the words we said, which you can find right now at soundoffpodcast.com. Mary Anne Ivison (VO) 00:22:10 Transcription for the Sound Off Podcast is powered by Poddin. Your podcast is an SEO goldmine. We help you to dig out. Start your free trial now at Poddin.io. Tara Sands (VO) 00:22:10 The Sound Off podcast. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:22:24 The 640 Toronto Podcast. Is that out yet? That's coming, isn't it? Dani Stover (Guest) 00:22:28 It's in here in my brain. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:22:31 You and Amanda have to be talking about this. Dani Stover (Guest) 00:22:33 Oh, yes, it's being talked about. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:22:36 I mean, this is why Amanda was hired here, for these sort of things to come up with podcast ideas that were going to be very radio related. And for somebody here who comes from radio and has worked in the podcast area now for seven years, I look for the intersection of the two, and I don't think they intersect as much as we think. Other than microphones and headphones, that's all it is. Because one is on-demand and the other is live and often local. Dani Stover (Guest) 00:23:00 Yes. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:23:01 Tip your hand and let me know what you've come up with so far. Dani Stover (Guest) 00:23:04 So the podcast will be Toronto centric. We're still nailing down things like how long, how often, what's the name going to be, those fun details. But that stuff happens. I've been through this process before. I've produced, hosted, and sent off into the world two pretty big podcasts. The BlogTO podcast, and Only In Toronto. And I say pretty big. I mean, depends who you ask. They were big to me, and I'm sure they were big to the people who showed up every day to listen. Now, we do know that with podcasting, we're not just taking stuff from the radio, ripping it, and being like, here's a podcast, because that's not what we're trying to do. This will be intentional. This will be its own thing, and this will be for a different demographic. It's interesting because as the show launched, obviously I have people that are like, I listen to you, I listen to you, because they know, they've got that reflex, that muscle, that knows talk radio. We're not going for those people. We're going to try and meet people who listen to podcasts where they're at, and we're going to try and fill a need that is Toronto News with me. And again, we will be taking stuff probably from the station, but we'll be giving it a different treatment that feels more podcast. And I will say, you've listened to the show, but I would encourage people listening, you know, dip in to Let's Talk on 640 Toronto. It doesn't sound, in my opinion, and I've heard this from others too, it doesn't sound like your typical "Hey, we're back" radio station. It does sound, for lack of a better phrase, a podcast for radio. And that's kind of how I'm approaching it. And that's just how I am. I think that is how I deliver things. I think that is kind of how I communicate, and I think it fits really well for radio, and I think it will fit really well for this podcast. I will say the whole process element of it has been interesting because, like I've said, I've done this before. And that's not to sound braggy. It's just to sound like, listen, I've done this before and it nearly killed me. So I'm going into this process with space for that. I've started a lot of jobs. It's interesting you mentioned having done this for seven years and doing the same thing. I don't feel like I've had that luxury in this career to kind of sit and get comfortable. I've had to constantly reinvent myself. And not to say that you're like, sitting and comfortable, but I'm just saying in my personal career, I've had to constantly be like, what's next? I say the most comfortable, quote, unquote, I felt was at the Wolf. And that was like some of the most uncomfortable years of my life. So coming into this, I'm like, listen, Dani, you've done this before. You know you're going to suck out the gate. You know there's going to be icky feelings and uncomfortable, bleh, feelings. That's okay. You're going to feel that and you're going to push through. And at the end of the day, you will come through to the speakers because you've done this work. And I explain, you know, putting the show together, especially in the earlier days, and we're only three weeks in, so we're still figuring it out. We're trying to solve an equation, and we don't quite know the value for X. And I feel like that's kind of where we're at with the podcast, too. We know what we want it to sound like. We know who we want it to serve and what kind of approach we want to take. It's just nailing down the process because I don't want to put stuff out for the sake of putting stuff out. I know a podcast exists a little bit longer. It's more permanent than something on the radio. I want it to sound good. I want it to sound polished. I want it to sound fresh and exciting. It also needs to fit into my day. So I'm also putting on the show. That's a lot of heavy lifting. I've got to work out that process where it fits in and it feels good, and it doesn't feel like I'm squeezing out, okay, here's something. Is this it? I don't want that feeling. So I'm trying to be a little intentional with how the process works. Again, I've done this where I don't want it to be like, oh, Monday. We're like, up against the clock every Monday, and I hate Mondays. I want it to feel good. In order for it to sound good, I'll say, I've got to feel good delivering it. That's where I want to be with this. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:26:48 I'm looking at this equation here where you are busy all day. You've got your content creation here, you've got your performance here, you've got some stuff to produce here. And then we're going to add a podcast. And I'm thinking the only hours left to do this are the ones where you would be sleeping. Dani Stover (Guest) 00:27:03 Yeah, and I'm not doing that. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:27:06 Well creatively, you wouldn't be there. So I do see the challenge that you have in front of you. That creation part of your day is going to have to be doled out a little more effectively because podcasts, it's hard. It is hard to come up with content that is going to last more than a few days. Dani Stover (Guest) 00:27:22 And we're not reinventing the wheel. We're really not. So I'm trying to get to a point where I don't have to give up too much of that content creative stuff. I'm trying to get to a point where we- bleh, I hate that I'm saying this- work smarter, not harder. And I liken it to this. It's interesting because I'm finding myself in an interesting position I haven't been in before. Like, I have a team, and I think, like, oh, we're all 20, right? We're all 20 year olds here. We're not. I'm older. I think I'm the same age as everybody. I'm not. So I'm coming across as a little bit more of a small-M mentor. No one's called me that. But I do feel a little bit like, oh, I have this kind of over a decade of experience, specifically in this space too, of like, making a podcast and throwing shit up against the wall and seeing what sticks, and having no team or having a very bare bones team. So the way I kind of explain it is like, we're not reinventing the wheel. The podcast is already there. I would love to be able to work ahead so that we're not on our heels every week. That's a big thing for me. So let's look for clues. Again, I'm like a private investigator. Radio is a big mystery, but it helps me. Let's look for clues. So, for example, last week I was like, Glenn, okay, the podcast is already done. Essentially, we just need to reverse engineer it. The topic we want to talk about is already out there. It might change, but, like, let's this week, Thursday, Friday, let's in our peripheral, look for clues. So the next day, he's like, hey, did you see this story? It's about Metrolinx. And the story is like, Metrolinx is building the Ontario line. It's provincially funded. However, they're not talking to the city. The city is not talking to them. The province is like, whatever. And in the mix of all of this, there are businesses that have been behind scaffolding for ten years. It's a huge story. So I was like, ah, these are the clues we're looking for. This is a great story that we don't have time to dig in today. This isn't going in tonight's seven to ten show. But looking ahead, we've got the time, we've got the resources, and these are the clues we're looking for. Then on Monday, a 39 year old cold case was exposed, and we were talking about genealogy, and the story changed. That would have been the podcast this week if we were making it, I would say, breaking open a cold case in Toronto, like, that murder true crime vibes is a great topic for a podcast, especially right out of the gate. So that would have changed. However, I'm just saying, that's kind of my process. That's how I think it through, and that is how we recognized, hey, here's a story that might make for a great podcast topic. What would we need to make that happen? And even if we're not creating that exact podcast, we're training our brain to think in different ways so that we're looking for those clues. And that's kind of my warm up process, because it is creative. I feel like my creative- I am a creative person. It's tiring. Like, I do feel like by the end of the day, I'm like, I've been thinking all day, and I'm tired. But it's fun. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:30:11 From the social media side of things. Have you cut back on your Twitter? Are you waiting for it to die? What social media are you hitting on these days? Dani Stover (Guest) 00:30:19 Yeah, good question, because I do social media for the Period Purse. So the Period Purse is a charity. I've been doing that for quite a few years, and I'm a volunteer. I get paid a little honorarium, but it's like, that's how I spend, like, a chunk of my month, chunk of my weeks, days even. I'm on. I'm on. I'm on Twitter, I'm on Instagram, sometimes I'm on TikTok, but that's through the Period Purse. And that, again, I kind of feel safe where I can hide behind something that I'm passionate about. It's not me. So I kind of feel like there's a buffer. In the last couple of years, I've felt really different about how I show up online. And you even said it, you're like, I haven't even known what you've been up to the last year and a half. It's because I felt weird throughout the pandemic, honestly, sharing stuff, it got really complicated for me. And not in, like, a weird or bad way, just in a- I don't know how to show up here. I don't even know that I really want to show up here. And I think I need to create some space because social media for me, and I think I was one of the early adopters in radio. In Peterborough, no one was on Twitter, no one had social media. People pushed back and thought I was, like, insane. Even with the show that shall not be named. Nah. I'll name it. The Blundell Show. I got them on Twitter and Facebook. You're welcome. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:31:32 And by the way, he's there every day, pretty much live now. Dani Stover (Guest) 00:31:36 He still uses the handle that I made for. Anyway, my point is just that social media for me was always so tied into my work. And then when I was working more precariously, I was like, I don't know how to share my personal stuff, and I don't really know that I want to share my personal stuff. Who is it for? So I'm still struggling with that. And people scare me on Twitter. Like, I'm not going to lie. People I know and respect terrify me. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:32:08 I know that when somebody says something, I know they would never tell that to my face. And that really worries me. The only other parallel I can draw is when I refereed a lot of high school hockey, a lot of high level, some junior hockey, and to see these people banging on the glass, wishing for my death, followed by- then I would meet them in the parking lot and they'd be, oh, what are you doing here? And I said, I refereed the hockey game. Their face would change. They had no idea that I was just out officiating that match. But I remember what you said when you were banging on the glass. And remember, there's a glass, right? And it's the same thing. It's the glass at the arena. It's the same thing. That's what Twitter provides, is that glass. You can bang on the glass. Dani Stover (Guest) 00:32:49 It's interesting because I kind of almost the reverse of that, where I'm like, I think I was getting caught up in a lot of generalizations. So white women are like this, or radio people are like this, or whatever as examples. And I think I really personified that stuff. And I really took on that. But then I had to stop and I had to say, okay, well, really, would my friends say this about me? Would my family members say this about me? Would some of my colleagues say this about me? No, they wouldn't. That's not me. So I really had to do that exercise of like- and I suggest everyone do this. Like, who am I? How am I trying to show up? Who is this for? And those are the kind of three questions I go through. And sometimes I share stuff and I'm like, this is for me, so I can look back on it, and I think that's kind of the- that's probably the corner I'm turning right now, is that I think I want social media to be for me. I want to promote my work because I put a lot of effort into my work, and I'm proud of it, and I want it to do well. I want to share photos of my family because I love them. I want to show pictures of my trip because I want to look back on that, and I want to have memories and all of that. So I think that's kind of how I'm trying to show up, but it takes a backseat. It's not my first and foremost, where social media very much was like, you need to be on this, and this is the only way. I think there is talk in this current role that I'm in to kind of take over some social media stuff for the station. But again, I'm a little nervous. To your point about reffing, those people show up in the comment section of almost every video posted on 640 Toronto's Instagram, and I want them to shut up. And I'll never get into a fight in the comment section. I'll never respond. That's just something where I'm like, hardline. No, you don't have that kind of control over my time. But I'm just like, I'm very sensitive, and I don't know that I could handle people coming for me in such an aggressive way, and I question the decisions they've made in their lives to get them to that point. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:34:48 I have a little angel that sits on my shoulder when I read a comment, and it asked me, do you care about that comment? And 100% of the time, I'll respond with, I do not. And then I move on. Dani Stover (Guest) 00:34:59 It's hard work, though. You know what? I watched Stutz last night. The new Jonah Hill documentary on Netflix. And I'm very into my therapy, and I feel like throughout the pandemic, I've really learned how to show up for myself. And I've just learned that I have, you know, my 2 feet on the ground. I have the tools in my body right now to deal with anything. And so with social media, I think, like, yeah, there's that voice of like, do you care? Whatever. But I'm like, well, that person is probably going through something, and good luck to them. I know myself. I know how I want to be, and I'm going to keep moving forward no matter what. I think I've lost my point here with the whole Stutz thing, but he talks about, okay, there's these three kinds of things. So your body, how you show up for your body, and how you sit with your body, how you show up for other people, and then how you show up for yourself. And so that idea of, like, I don't care, I struggle with because I do care. I do care so much. To the point where it paralyzes me. So it doesn't even matter at the end of the day because I'm like, oh, my God, I care. So I can't do this thing because someone might not like it. And I think my New Year's resolution, and I came to this last night while watching Stutz, is that I'm going to work on that piece and reframe it. So it's not like I don't care. It's that I do care. I care a lot about me and about my inner self, and about my values, and about my time. And that might sound a little bit selfish, but I think it'll help me in the long run to kind of be able to- water off a duck's back, be able to brush things off a little bit better and to be empathetic in that, but also be strong in that, again, setting a boundary that's just like I'm not going to be everything you want me to be. And isn't that insane? If I was. I'm not. And I never will be. And so you can show up and listen to me with all my faults. You can think what I said is dumb. You can think, oh, she doesn't know what she's talking about. Think all that, all you want. And you know what? Sometimes you're going to be right. And sometimes trust. I believe that about myself, too. But in the long run, I'm just trying to put on a show. I'm just trying to share information, share myself and show up and do a job. And so, long story short, that thing of like, I don't care, for me is difficult, and it's something that I grapple with a lot, and I think it is because I do care. And it's more like, I want you to like me so bad, but it's impossible. It's really, like, people are incapable of liking someone all the time. I'm incapable of liking myself all the time, so how could I expect you to? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:37:25 It's funny, you mentioned Jonah Hill because he was in Moneyball, and there was that scene where they were trying to decipher what they really cared about, and they really only cared about on base percentage, and he played the role of the metrics person. Do we care? You do not care. "He gets on base. So he walks a lot. He gets on base a lot, Rocco. Do I care if it's a walk or a hit? Pete? You do not. I do not." So it's funny you mentioned Jonah Hill. Dani Stover (Guest) 00:37:55 You know what, I started watching it and I was like, all right. It's kind of slow but fantastic. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:38:00 You know, you're good for radio. That's what I like about you. You're good for radio. Dani Stover (Guest) 00:38:04 I feel like I have it in my bones. Like, I really do feel- I might have even said this the last time I was on the podcast. I was going to school for, like, professional writing, and I was, like, diagramming sentences, and I was really into the grammar and that kind of thing. No clue what kind of job that would lead to. And I was like, I had something very traumatic happen to my family at that time, and I was kind of in a position to reevaluate some things. And in that traumatic event, like, ho-lee. Completely allowed me to look at a terrible event, and pivot from it, and look for the opportunity and grow. And I was like, well, I don't want to be proofreading manuals. I don't think this is the right place for me. And when I went to Seneca, and it was just like one of those orientation days of, like, we have this journalism program, radio, TV program. And I'm like, I think that's what I want to do. I think, you know, I've always loved radio, always loved storytelling. I've always been passionate about these things, and maybe I'll give it a whirl. And I went into this auditorium. It's filled with people who no longer work in the industry at all. However, they had that same feeling as me as, like, maybe I'll be the next this, or maybe I'll do something or whatever, and I felt home. And I think I even said it to my mom that day of, like, I feel like I'm in the right place for me, and I've never lost that feeling. And so that's kind of how I feel about radio. At the end of the day, people are like, why not, you know, get into TV? There's more money or whatever. Even with podcasting, it's like, yeah, I love podcasting, but. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:39:27 I can assure you, there's not more money in podcasting. Dani Stover (Guest) 00:39:30 I know that's right. But I will say this. Larry Gifford, who's like, the big boss at chorus for Talk Radio, he's based out west. He's got a Parkinson's podcast, actually, that does quite well. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:39:30 When life gives you Parkinson's, yeah. Dani Stover (Guest) 00:39:42 When life gives you Parkinson's. I will say, another little Stutz recommendation. He also has Parkinson's. But going back to Larry, he was like, we had our big week of development meetings and all that, and he was like, if I could work on any show in radio right now, it would be this one. And I was like, oh, my God. I'm energized. That one sentence completely- you're right. This is the show that if you were to ask me what you want to be doing in radio right now, it would be this. There's that feeling again of, I'm home. I'm where I'm supposed to be. So that really excited me. I was like, oh, my God. Cool. That's really cool. And so, yeah, I do feel like I'm great for radio because I love it so much. I think there's something romantic about it. Even the white man banging on the desk. I like that. And I don't care who knows it. I might not agree with them, but there's something about it that. I'm just like- there's just something so raw in this medium, and you're not going to get it every time. You'll turn on the radio and you won't get that again. Isn't that exciting? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:40:42 Dani, thanks so much for doing this again. I appreciate it. Dani Stover (Guest) 00:40:46 Well, thank you for having me. I love talking about this stuff and with you. Tara Sands (VO) 00:40:46 The Soundoff podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski. Social Media by Courtney Krebsbach. Another great creation from the Soundoff Media Company. There's always more at soundoffpodcast.com.

If you've listened to sports radio in Alberta anytime in the last three decades, you probably know Bryn Griffiths. He's been positively prolific in covering the NHL and CFL teams in the area since the 90's- which is around when I met him. Bryn joins us from Edmonton this week to talk about his lifelong passion for sports and broadcasting, and fair warning, this episode is a big one. We begin by exploring why he got into radio, and my jealousy over the fact that different time zones allowed Bryn to catch Monday Night Football as a kid without staying up past his bedtime. We continue into stories about his career in radio, his favourite interviews, the usual sports talk, and of course, a long chat about the current state of sports radio (and radio in general). As you might expect from someone who's been the rockstar of Albertan sports radio for the last 30-odd years, Bryn also drops a metric ton of broadcasting wisdom throughout this episode. From how to tell a story, to what makes certain radio and TV shows feel special, and much, much more. Quite honestly, this is a tricky one to summarize, because we just talk about so much- but it's all worth hearing, I promise. Bryn is an endless font of wisdom for any aspiring radio star. For another interesting little tidbit, check out this YouTube channel belonging to Mark Summers. He's saved all the air checks from a ton of Edmonton radio stations, and they're definitely a fun listen: Nowadays, Bryn is the Director of Podcast and Audio Production at Road 55, a production house in Edmonton that works with you every step of the way to help you create the best version of whatever content you want to make. If that sounds appealing, you can check out their website here. Check out the kind words of two time guest on this podcast, Marty Forbes: "He built something that I think the industry needs, and that is what we call one stop podcasting. And what I hear from everybody is, 'Geez, I really would like to do one of these things. I don't have the time and I don't have the wherewithal,' but they have the knowledge... Well, Bryn has all the parts that you need, and all he needs is knowledge. So he's built... a complimentary service so that guys can use podcasting for pure commercial intent and backgrounding for their businesses. So he's very good at it... It's a neat template that's rather unique, and (Bryn) has built this template to be really profitable and meaningful in his life, that he's now doing something he really enjoys. He's a great guy to talk to." If you'd like to keep up with Bryn, you can follow him on Instagram, Twitter, or LinkedIn. Transcript: Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:01 The Soundoff podcast. The podcast about broadcast with Matt Cundill.... starts now. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:00:10 I've known Bryn Griffiths since the 1990s when he was working for the Edmonton Oilers. He was the guy you called when you needed something media related... like an interview. In and around those times, though, is a very storied broadcast career. And I say storied because he's really good at telling stories and knows that stories are the key to great radio. So here we go. From Edmonton to Moose Jaw, to Calgary, the Oilers, the Flames, the CFL, and all points in between. Bryn Griffiths joins me from his home studio in Edmonton, Alberta, where the stories started before I hit the record button. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 00:00:45 First of all, you've got to always have content. Two, you've always got to be creative in how you present the content. And the third one is the one that most people completely forget about. And that is there's got to be conflict. If there's not an element of conflict between hosts, host and guests, host and listener or a texture or whatever it is, is going to work, it'll work okay, but you can't take it to the next level if you don't have that third C, give me the three C's and don't forget that third one. You've always got to be able to push a few buttons a little bit. You don't have to go away from what you believe, but there's always a way you can spin it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:22 Bryn, you know, you're like the rock star who comes in, sits down to do the interview while the records playing, burns all the stories while the records playing. And then when we go to air, there's nothing. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 00:01:33 I don't know. I think I could find something for you. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:36 I mean, what you were saying was so good. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 00:01:37 I'm like, why is he not talking. About this while I'm recording? So I just hit record and off we go. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 00:01:42 Lots to talk about, man, and thanks for having me on today. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:45 I know. Well it's like therapy, right? So where shall we begin? Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 00:01:49 Well, let's begin at the very beginning. I think Julie Andrews once sung that in The Sound of Music. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:01:54 But start at the beginning of a broadcast career if that's where your story does begin, because so much of what you do is intertwined between working with sports properties, for sports properties, and as well, media. You've gone back and forth for so many years and we'll try to touch both those bases. But which came first, the sports property or the broadcast property? Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 00:02:16 I think the love of sports came first. And it's funny because my want and need to get into the broadcasting business started in grade seven when I was going to junior high and I wasn't quite good enough to make the basketball team where two of my best friends were good enough to make that basketball team. So I figured, what am I going to do here? Gee, I'm kind of enjoying watching this new cable show that we're getting here in Edmonton called Monday Night Football. And Howard Cosell is kind of crazy. And so, anyway, I was intrigued by Monday Night Football, and they had a great team back then. And I thought to myself, that might be kind of an interesting thing to get into. So I convinced my parents to buy me. I wanted to get a little panasonic cassette recorder where I could basically do play by play of my friends basketball games and just start to have some fun with it. And that's kind of where it got started for me. And it's funny because I still am very close to a bunch of my junior high friends and they all say the one thing. They say there's only one or two people that I went to school with where I knew what they were going to do right from the get go. You were one of them. And I never really wanted to do anything else. I got a little distracted when I got out of high school because I think everybody does. But it took me a few years to get started. I went and did volunteer work at the cable TV station here in Edmonton, just basically watching how everything works. And then I also volunteered at the campus radio station, CJSR. And Morley Scott, who is now the voice of the Edmonton Elks, he was doing the play by play for the U of A Golden Bears. And I kind of hosted just for fun. I wasn't getting paid. I was on this campus station. I didn't even go to the U of A, but it was fun for me. And then Morley got a gig in St. Paul doing some junior A games. And so I moved in to do play by play of the Bears. And also, I was the sports director at CJSR. They paid me, like, $800 a month and my folks were on board. They said, look, if you want to give it a try, do it. You can still live at home, and you can still pull in a little bit of cash and you can have another part time job at Sport Check. And so I kind of did both. And I got a chance to talk to a guy called Clare Drake, legendary coach. And I learned so much about hockey by talking to both he and Billy Moore, who was an assistant both with NHL experience. But Clare one of the winningest coaches in all of university and college hockey in North America, anywhere in the world. But you learn a lot on the bus, right? So, sure enough, I was getting ready to do my second year at the U of A and I got a call from CHAB in Mooshaw, Aaskatchewan. Saskatchewan. Super Eight. And they wanted to hire me to do the Moose Jaw Warrior broadcast because Scott Armstrong, who had been doing the games of the first year, Scott had decided to head back to Ontario. And this was kind of sudden in August. So I sent my tape to the general manager, Stan Ravendale, because the program director, Sharon Taylor, wasn't there. And Stan had to get somebody in fast. So that was kind of my jump. And all through this I wanted to go to the NAIT course, the radio and television arts course, but my English mark was never strong enough. But my desire and my passion was there. But they still went aggressively after the 85 and the 90 percenters, so I had probably been turned down about four or five times. That's why I started doing volunteer work. I always tell people, if you're really passionate about something, find a way in. And that's how I found my way in. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:05:51 So some of the things that ran through my mind as you're talking is like, how come you got to watch Monday Night Football? Because my bedtime sort of coincided with when it started. But then I remember you're in Edmonton, so that's a 07:00 start. Lucky you. And then the other thing I'm thinking is that transitional period between late 70s into the 80's in Edmonton, can you tell everyone what it was like? You don't have to go into the building of the Oilers. I think we'll get into that shortly. But the city really changed from the late 70s into the 80's - the place exploded like no other. And really it sort of vaulted the city into what it's become today. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 00:06:26 And I think that all happened in 1978 when we got the Commonwealth Games, when they were big, and all of a sudden we went from Clark Stadium, where I grew up as a kid in the Knot Hole Gang, watching a horrible, horrible Edmonton Eskimos team. Sorry, but that's who they were back then. So I watched the Clark Stadium and then through the middle part of the 70s, you can see just northeast of the stadium, the new stadium being built, and everybody kind of got charged up about this Commonwealth Stadium that they were building. We're going to host these Commonwealth Games. We're going to have an opportunity to host the Commonwealth to come in here. And it was a big thing. And the other thing that was really interesting, my parents were always very supportive of anything I did, but they love sports, both of them. My mum helped me learn and love the sport of tennis, which is not a really big thing, but she would get me up at seven in the morning and watch Wimbledon because she just loved it. My dad was a huge hockey guy, very supportive, but they were always big on sports. And the one thing about the Commonwealth Games was my parents, who are of Welsh descent, had decided to open up our home to guests during the Commonwealth Games because they were worried about hotel rooms and hotel space. So they invited these people, the people who came to stay with us for those two weeks. He was the head of the Welsh Tourist Board, so he was really well connected. So what was interesting to me, we were invited to go to this event at the Northern Alberta Jubilee Auditorium, and it was a reception that the government was holding, the UK government were holding for their teams and their officials. And we got invited along because we were with the Saunders. That's who they were. So when I was there, mr. Saunders was really connected. So I got a chance to meet Sir Roger Banister, kind of set the mark on the old Mile at Empire Stadium in Vancouver, got a chance to meet a lot of famous UK athletes, and it just kind of charged me right up. And that was in 78 years I'm graduating from high school. So that kind of got me really, really started. But I really believe that's what pushed the city to achieve. The football team had started to win a little bit just prior to that, so the ball was already rolling a little bit. But just to get an opportunity to host the world, I think push the city to recognize we can be a little bit better than we think we can. The other thing, too, we're in the World Hockey Association at that time, and there was always this talk of a merger with the National Hockey League. And while we heard Toronto and Montreal were not interested in Vancouver to a certain degree, not interested in having other Canadian teams, mostly because we weren't big enough, winnipeg, Quebec City and Edmonton were not big enough, calvary wasn't even in the mix at that point. So anyway, it's just circumstances. Everything just kind of fell into place. Got into the NHL. The football team got on an unbelievable role. I look at the winners. Blue Bombers right now at the time of this taping, are on the precipice of winning three Gray Cups in succession. It also makes me realize how unbelievable five is, so that the football team was on fire. Then we had this kid, Wayne Gretzky. I remember going to his very first game at what was the Coliseum, and it was the first time I'd ever gone to a hockey game. And there was somebody playing on a professional team who was younger than me very first time. So I don't know, I think the city just kind of got caught up in it, and the city has never really looked back. We like hosting big events here. If it's not a big event, we might be there, we might not be there, but if it's a big event, we're going to show up. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:09:51 And for American listeners who've made it this far into the podcast, don't think they might understand that the Edmonton Eskimos with those five great Cups. It was Warren Moon who was quarterback for, I think, three or four of them on the back half. And also it was Forrest Gregg who was the coach. He went on to, I think, coach the packers at one point. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 00:10:12 We've seen a lot of good talent go through here. We've seen some guys make it to the NFL. Warren is obviously the biggest. Warren was outstanding right from the moment he stepped from the University of Washington, the Huskies in Seattle, to Edmonton, and so proud to call him an escort alumni and also proud to see what he did in the NFL and proud to see he's in the Football Hall of Fame. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:10:32 Yeah, absolutely. And I'm also thinking back to that merger when the Oilers did come on board, and the Winnipeg Jets and the Hartford Whalers. But times don't change. Canadian clubs still don't want other Canadian clubs in the NHL because they got to share the TV revenue. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 00:10:48 Well, there were two rounds of merger talks. The very first one, it didn't go very well, and it was kind of shocking to us. And the city, I think, at that time might have rained around 7500 people maybe, but it was shocking to us. Vancouver were kind of iffy they were on the fence. But both Harold Ballard and the Leafs and the Molson's and the Montreal Canadien were not wanting any part of an Edmonton or Winnipeg or Quebec City. So the first round went poorly. It didn't ever happen. But the fact that we're talking is what I convinced my dad to buy season tickets that year, because I said, you know, if they're talking now, something is going to happen here and we'll get in eventually. So I convinced my dad to buy season tickets. We got great tickets and we watched them get all the way to the World Hockey Association final against the jets. And then the merger talks started up again, but would really push things. And the reason why things changed. Vancouver now was on side, but Montreal was still iffy and Toronto was dead against it. But it didn't have to be anonymous vote. So Harolds could just kind of go away and Harold was Harold. But the thing that really tipped it was in both winterg and Edmonton, we did this thing called a beer boycott. We boycotted Molson's. And Molson was the number one beer product in Western Canada. And we got a little support out of Vancouver in British Columbia, and we basically shut down their brewery for about two to three months to the point where they went, you know what? This is not good for business. And so the Molson part of it overruled the Montreal Canadians part of it, and the halves came on board, and the next thing you know, we're in. We're into the big league. And then Calvary obviously came along after the Flames decided to make a move, but there was no interest in having Canadian cities, let alone Canadian cities who were only around 600,000 to 750,000. But I think it worked out okay. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:12:31 Where were you around 1981 when all this starts to really take off? Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 00:12:36 I was working at Sport Check. I was selling shoes, and I loved it. I'm still very close to a lot of the people I worked alongside at Sport Check back in the 80s. They've become very successful people in the community here and throughout Western Canada, but I just loved to check in with them. Before that, I worked at the auto center at Sears, which was also great because I always watched Cheers, the television show, and I used to look at the ensemble cast that they had, and everybody was a colorful character. But I worked at an auto center at Sears, and I always thought to myself, this would be a great sitcom because everybody in here is so wildly crazy in their own special way. So basically, what I was trying to get into, Nate, into radio and television arts, I decided I needed to make some money. So I worked at an auto center, which was fun, also paid the bills. I learned a lot about cars, and then I went to Sport Check. I didn't need to know much about shoes, but it was a great filler. And then when I went into the U of A at CJSR, I was able to maintain that job just to make sure that I was able to generate a little funds, which is one of the things you always have to do in radio as well. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:13:41 When you started to work in a place, let's say, like CHAB, you want to call the hockey games, but you get a whole bunch of other jobs that sort of come with it. And sometimes I think that you go all going to call the hockey games, but then you have to go into the radio station to learn all these other things that you need to do, because you can't just call hockey games. So what else did you do? Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 00:14:01 Yes, I did the morning show, and when I first got there, Kelly Latremouille was the host, and doing news was a guy named Doug Blackie. .... and Doug. I didn't even know, and this is how long ago this was. We had to edit with the old grease pencil, and you'd cut the tape on the reels and everything. So I learned that because I was excited and I was enthusiastic and passionate about it, so I learned really quick. But the thing that was really a struggle in the first year was the fact that you would do the morning show on a Monday. You do the morning show on a Tuesday. Then you would go right from the radio station after doing a little post show prep. You go right from there to the arena, drop your car off, grab out of the back, your blanket, your equipment and your pillow, you jump on the bus and you'd head to Prince Albert, which would be about a three hour trip. You get into the arena and you'd have to sleep on the bus because you're just on the morning show. So you get into Prince Albert, let's say around five in the afternoon or whatever, and you get off the bus, you go up to the press box. We used to use two phone lines, and you have to make sure that they were working. And you'd set up and you go down and you do your post game stuff with the coaches. And then you come up, you do the broadcast of the game. Afterwards, you would go downstairs, get a couple of quick clips for the morning show. The next day you get on the bus, you drive all the way back to Moose Jaw. You get back in the Moose Jaw at 330 in the morning. I always slept in a chair. Eventually they put in a sofa in the very back in the lounge, and I would sleep for an hour, hour and a half there. Kelly would wake me up, okay, we're ready to go. Or Doug and I would go in and I would type up my sports and I would go and I'd perform for the next 3 hours during the morning show. And then back there in the first year, I did a split shift. So I would go home after the morning show, I would sleep, and then I would wander into the radio station again around three to do the sports at four, five and six. And that's it. If you're not passionate about it, that would have got me out of the business, like, in a heartbeat, because it was a grind. But I just loved it. It was so much fun. But yeah, you do other things too. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:16:27 I'm not even sure you need to rent an apartment at that point. I think you can just use the station couch. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 00:16:33 But you know what? If it wasn't fun, I would not do it. And the other thing I started doing on the morning shows, I started doing character voices. So what we used to do is and it was so much fun, because radio is really kind of magical in a lot of ways, right? So what we would do is you'd get the Electric Weenie, which was a comedy service, and you'd find a bad joke in there. So I did a few characters. I did one was Skippy the Newspaper Boy, and it was basically a takeoff of Arnold on the Flints list. Hey, Mr. Flintstone. You know, that kind of stuff. I did another one called Guido. Guido talked like this, and he was our garbage guy. And then the other guy was Dr. Mel Practice. I can't believe we still use that name, but we did, and Dr. Mel talked a lot like that. Like Truman Capotee and Droopy Dog or whatever. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:17:49 Really? Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 00:17:50 What we would do is I would go into the studio with Kelly and then later on, Barry Weiss and I would be the character and the host would be the host. And the whole thing was to set up this bad corny joke. Every time. The bit would go about a minute, minute and a half. But what we would do is occasionally the character would say, good morning, Barry. Good morning, Bryn. And then we'd leave a little gap. And so when we ran it on the air off of an old cart machine, I left my mic open so that I could go, Good morning, Dr. Mel So nobody knew that it was me. And when Dr. Mel would be lining up his joke, I'd be going and like I said, that was the magic of it because nobody had a clue who these people were, and it was me. And I just thought it was so much fun. And once again, if it wasn't fun, I'm not sure I would have made it through those few years. And the other thing that was a little tough in Moose Jaw was that it was really Moffat High. Moffat Communications put all their young and up and comers there. And so I watched a lot of great talent go through there in about a half a year to a year. Well, sports. I knew when I went to Saskatchewan I was going to be there for at least three years because sports jobs don't open up. So I knew that I had to kind of suck it up for three years. But it was really I found it a little depressing. Like when Kelly left out, it would kill me. But Barry Weiss came on board. Barry was great. Love working with Barry and Rob Carney. But it was a tough run at times in Moose Jaw But the fact that I got an opportunity to do absolutely everything, I just think made me a better broadcaster. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:19:35 And what came after Moose Jaw? Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 00:19:37 My parents had come out for a visit in my fourth year, had come out for Easter, and the warriors didn't make the playoffs that year. And so a friend of mine, Roger Millions, who was doing the PlaybyPlay for the Saskatoon Blades on, I think it was CFQC Radio City. Brinster, why don't you come out to Swift Current tonight and do color for me on this playoff game? And it was always fun to go to Swift because you get a chance to watch Joe Sakic play. Joe is such a talent. So I went, but I dragged my parents with me and the Broncos were kind of upset me up with tickets and everything, so my parents had a chance to sit right in the crowd. And of course, a few people found out who they were and they were very complimentary of me to my parents, which was really nice, meant a lot to me. But of course, in Swift Current we had the number one morning show. Cab boomed everywhere in the province, so our morning show was big. People were always great to me in Swift unless I came in with the warriors and then I was the enemy. But anyway, so I went in with my parents, I did the broadcast. We had dinner with the Blades in a little restaurant, and then we were driving back and I don't know, it was kind of quiet in the car. I think my mum had fallen asleep. Dad was awake. But we got back to my place and around four in the morning I could hear my dad waking up and he was shifting around and I could hear him in the other room saying to his mom that he must have eaten something bad because he had some indigestion. And that kind of caught my attention. And then the other one was, my arm is feeling a little tingly, my left arm. So I immediately jumped out of bed. He was going to go walk across the street in the park. I'm glad I didn't let him go because he would have dropped dead in the park, but I got him to the hospital. It was a blowout of his aorta. So dad passed away in Moosha and so I had to drive my mum back home and everything like that. But I came back for the fifth season in Mooshaw and I didn't make it the whole way through because I knew I had to get back to Edmonton to be with my mum and my sister. So I got a call from K 97 and they were making a change, and so they hired me. So I left in February that year and I came back to Edmonton and I worked at K 97 for a year and a half to almost two years with a fun morning show as well. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:21:41 Who was on that morning show? Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 00:21:43 Well, The Breakfast Club. Bruce Kenyon was the main anchor. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:21:47 That's right. Many years there, and just the time, I think he took a small time out to go to Montreal and then back to Edmonton. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 00:21:54 I can't remember which station he was at Montreal, but anyway, Bruce was great fun to work with. I worked with Sharon Mallon, who was doing news. Sharon was the ultimate professional when it came to news, and Mark Summers was our operator, Sharky, we call him, and he did traffic when he wasn't operating the board. And it was so much fun working with the three of them because we were really in the heyday. There was no other real rock station. There was 96, which was K Light, which I think turned into Mix. It's funny. Len Thuessen. Len was programming, and they could never quite crack that nut when I was there, but I had a lot of fun there. It was just, I think, so highly of all three of those guys. I've always worked with great people. I've been so lucky, and I've learned from everybody I've worked with, which I think is so important. But the K 97 experience was a blast. I really loved it. Yeah. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:22:43 If I were to think about a great incarnation of a K 97 morning show, that was one that I knew, that went through the late eighties and on into the early nineties, and Mark Summers had some great retro stuff up on a YouTube page somewhere. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 00:22:57 Oh, yeah. Well, the other thing, too, we had a 42/ 43% market share at one point. And I will tell you, one of my career highlights in 1990 was they sent me on the road to be with the Oilers through the playoff run. And the year before, the orders were playing Wayne Gretzky and the Kings, their first clash in the playoffs since the sale or trade, depending on how you view it. I view it as a sale. But I went on that first trip in 89, and it was a seven game series. They lost in seven. But the thing that I remember about that trip was how intimidated I was to be on that bus with the Mark Messiers and the Kevin Lowe's and was a very talented team. The only thing they were missing was 99. But I remember getting on the bus one day, it was after a game they had lost, and I was going to cab back to the hotel and Bill Tuele, the longtime public relations media relations director with the hockey club, said, you go back to the hotel, Brain, just jump on the bus. So I jumped on the bus and I looked and there wasn't a freaking seat in the front. So I kept moving back and moving back, and I went, now I travel on the bus. I know that it's sanctuary at the. Very back. That's where the veterans are. And of course, as you move towards the back of the bus, you can see the age changing as well, because it's the older guys at the back. And I was getting nervous. I'm going and one guy goes, there's a seat back here. So I went to sit in that seat, and I was sitting next to Charlie Huddy, and I just sat there, and I was kind of staring straight ahead like I went, don't talk, don't talk. Just say nothing. This is only a ten minute bus trip, and everything like that. And I still remember Charlie turning to me and saying, but she's giving you a hard time, huh? And I looked. What? He says, all the guys are giving you a hard time about being on the road with us. And at that point, I recognized that, you know what? Shit, this guy's a listener. This isn't just Charlie Huddy, the hockey player, and then Kevin and Mark and a bunch of the guys at the back, the veteran guys, well, you could tell those guys to screw off. I all of a sudden recognized that, okay, I'm the same age as these guys. And while I see them differently, and I thought they would see me differently, the one thing we had in common was I was on the radio and they were listening to that station. So it was a real eye opener for me, and I loved it. And in 1990, I got a chance to cover the team home and away through the entire playoff run right to the Cup Final. And it was a blast. And it was fun for me because the one thing I've learned is I don't cheer for teams. I never really have, but I cheer for the guys wearing the jerseys, because you make really great friendships in hockey as you're doing the media business. So for me, when LA won the cup that one year, it was great fun to see a couple of the guys who I knew in Edmonton win, because they were good guys, right? But the whole thing was just very, very strange. But the whole K 97 experience was a blast for me. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:25:37 When did La win the cup? Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 00:25:39 Oh, man. What year would that have been? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:25:42 2012. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 00:25:43 Yeah. Somewhere in there, Boston won it. If my good friend Bob Stauffer was here, he would be embarrassed because he would be able to nail out immediately. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:25:52 Just interrupting here to let you know there's an excellent documentary called The Boys on the Bus featuring the Edmonton Oilers. The link is in the show notes. Okay, back to the podcast. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 00:26:02 Now, during my time in Moose Jaw, I've been sending cassettes to Winnipeg to be critiqued by Curt Keelback. And every once in a while I would get a fax or a quick little phone call. But here's what you should work on. I can't do Curt's voice very well. I can't go that deep and I would work on those little things, or I get a I'd get a letter back with some handwritten notes real quick. I just thought it was really special. Anyway, so I came back to Edmonton because I needed to be closer to family. And during the last couple of months at K 97, I got a call from the Winnipeg Jets were making a shift because their longtime legendary broadcaster Kenny Nicholson, who they called the Friar, was suffering from diabetes. And Michael Hearn had been filling in a little bit, but they wanted somebody who could come and fill in for the final year of their current contract. So my name had been mentioned about what about that kid in Moose Jaw? Well, they didn't know that I moved to Edmonton, but they tracked me down, flew me in, hired me, and the next thing you know, I'm doing games in the NHL with another guy who I respect and Curt Keelback. And that was fun. Some of it was fun. Not all of it. A lot of it was. But there were some moments when I went'wow, what am I doing here? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:27:12 In just a second. More with Bryn. What's it like working for the Edmonton Oilers around names like Kevin Lowe and Glenn Sather. Players like Doug Weight and Bill Guerin. And what about that time in Winnipeg? There's more to come. And I've posted a bunch of things on the episode page, including ways to connect with Brian if your business is interested in a branded podcast, and also a link to Mark Summer's YouTube page where you can connect with a whole lot of other Edmonton radio nostalgia and air checks. Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:27:41 The Sound Off podcast with Matt Cundill. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:27:58 What was it like to work with Curt Keelback? Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 00:28:00 Well, Kurt was great. It's funny because the first couple of weeks I was a little down. And the reason I was a little down, and it shouldn't have been down I'm doing games in the national hockey. I'm not doing play by play, I'm doing color. But Curt's reasoning for getting a broadcastering was he wanted to work with a broadcaster, and I want to work with another former player who could not broadcast. He said, Get me a broadcaster. How about the kidna in Moose Jaw? So Curt was fantastic, but those first couple of weeks, I was a little down because I was doing all this game prep. The fun part was working with Curt was that after every game it was on the road, we'd go for beer. So he says, how are you feeling about things? I said, Well, I'm a little down because I'm only using 20% to 30% of my game notes. And he started to laugh with his deep voice. And he said, there'll come a couple of games where you'll use 80% to 90% of your stuff. Don't worry about it. So it was about a week or two later, I think we were at Madison Square Garden in New York. And sure enough, a pain of glass breaks and it took them forever to fix it. The key for me was I didn't want to become a stat guy. I wanted to be a story guy. I wanted to go down to the room and I talked to Eddie Olczyk or Randy Carlyle or Scott Arneil or any of those guys. But anyway, those guys will always give you great stories. And that's what I've used for show prep. And then you have to have your basic stats. But on that one particular game, I ended up using about 80% of it. And he looked over at me and nodded his head because he went, that's why you do the prep. You do the prep for those times where you need it. Sometimes you don't need it. Sometimes the story is right in front of you. Sometimes you just got to describe the game a little bit. But there's going to come a time where you need to be a little deeper than just what you're seeing on the ice. So I learned lots there and I learned and the other thing, too, the Nicholson family, ken and his wife Marge treated me like another son. And because I had moved to Winnipeg, I get this call. What are you doing? I don't know. I'm just going to stay at home. The apartment here and probably watch the game tonight because then you've got a quality one game a night and he had this big honking satellite dish. Come on over. We'll put something on. We'll put Mars. Can you make something for dinner? So I will go over frequently. And he treated me so well. I really loved my time in Winnipeg. I only stayed a year because the contract expired and the rights jumped from CKY over to CJOB. And they decided the one thing you learned really early in broadcasting is that when changes are made, changes are made. And the other thing about it is that often new generals want their soldiers. They want to go to war with their guys. So I lost my gig in Winnipeg to Don Whitman. No embarrassment there. When I think back in the top ten sports highlights for me in my life, I'll bet you he's broadcast six of them. He could do pretty much everything exceptionally well. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:30:39 1996 Atlanta is What comes to mind immediately in my head. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 00:30:42 Yeah, exactly. And the other one for me, I hate to say it's the Ben Johnson one, because for me, that was where sports lost a little bit of its innocence. For me, I started to recognize there's a little more to this than just running a hundred meters. It's a little more than just scoring goals. So for me, it was a bit of a wake up call. But the time in Winnipeg was fantastic. I love the people. The summer was great. I still tell my good friends in Winnipeg that I know it gets cold and Edmonton in the winter, but we get Pacific Air frequently over here, right? We can go into a cold snap for maybe five to seven days, and we get a push of Pacific Air. Calories gets it every two to three days in Winnipeg. When you're in, you are in. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:31:21 As this podcast is being recorded, it is November, and I can confirm we are in. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 00:31:26 Yes. Are you okay? Good for you. Like today here, I think it's plus three. But anyway, it was fantastic. So anyway, the contract expired in Winnipeg, and so I'm kind of sitting around and I was trying to figure out, what am I going to do next? And my phone rings and it's a legendary voice that I grew up listening to, inhabitants named Bryan Hall. And Halsey goes for instance what are you doing? I said, I don't know. Bryan thinking of coming back. I said, I don't know. I haven't really started even looking for another gig, Bryan. He says, well, Fred Fleming. And there was a longtime CFL player, freddie Fleming. Fred had gone into broadcasting and worked alongside Halsey for years. Fred was very, very tight, too, with a friend of his in Edmonton at the time, and that was Pat Bolan, who ended up purchasing and was the owner of the Denver Broncos. So Pat decided he wanted to drag Freddie down to work with the Broncos. So Fred goes to Denver, Bryn Griffiths goes back to Edmonton to work alongside Bryan Hall at 930 CJCA for three years. I got the chance to do color on the Trapper AAA broadcast for the PCL, hosted the football broadcast for two and a half years, had a lot of fun. And then they ended up pulling the plug on the radio station because the ownership were going through a crazy time with ownership, and they decided that it would be, rather than sell the station, we'll just we'll basically pull the plug and just turn the license. And I don't know anybody who would do that, but they did. Anyway, I wrote that. I wrote that for a while. Got more experience and it was too much fun. I got a chance to work with Brian Hall and another guy named Bill Matheson. And Maddie was doing a show on the radio and was also doing weather on ITV, which turned into global television. And the one thing I learned from both guys is that you can be yourself on the radio. Don't be afraid to be yourself on the radio. But what you have to do is you have to take it. You have to multiply it times ten. You have to be the shining star. You can't just be another star. You have to be the shining star. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:33:21 So I remember listening to Bill Matheson when he would do the afternoon show on CHED. It was some of the most innocuous stuff, but it was some of the most interesting stuff. He would talk about where the origins of expressions would come from and I'd go, this is really good talk radio that in this day and age would just it's just been all tossed aside. But I remember listening to it and being this is really good stuff, I'm interested. I mean, listen, we can Google all this stuff now, but this is just around the time that the internet was coming into its own. I thought, this is really interesting stuff and builds an interesting guy and he's communicating and talking with people and I don't have to listen to the person who was before him with his incendiary views. Rutherford. There, I said it on CHED. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 00:34:01 Yeah, exactly. Okay. But anyway, it was a blast. So I don't know, I just keep moving from gig to gig. I think part of it is because people like me generally and they liked what I did and so therefore I had gone like 25 years from job to job and had never had to hand in a resume. I just kept getting hired and it was great. My resume is rather lengthy, as one PD and Edmonton said once, I don't know if we should hire him. He moves around a lot. Well, I can tell you why I moved around a lot because I love a challenge. And so one, if the station isn't unplugging me, or my father's not passing away or radio rights contract isn't expiring, I could have stayed at those places a long time, but there's always a new challenge and in the ended up moving from there. When the CJCA thing collapsed, I went to Mexico for a few weeks and I got a call from CISN and CHQT and they wanted to hire me. So I put them off for another month and then flew back to Puerto Vallarta feeling good about the fact that I was going back to another job. Stayed there for a while, but by that point I was really burned out. So I stayed for maybe about a year and a half and then I decided just to simply walk away, which really surprised a lot of people. But sometimes you have to do the right thing for you mentally. The mental health thing is essential. So for me, I just walked away and took some time off and then I moved into television for a while. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:35:23 I can see why you took that break. The middle. A lot of radio stations began to get very I think they were quite set in their ways in what they were doing. Music radio really became music radio. I think they felt a little bit less of a need to have a sports voice on and if they did, they were asking for some personality out of it. So that's kind of what I was doing. I was on the Aaron Edmonton with Jake Daniels, but Jake was going to contribute more and be more of a personality rather than just coming in and reading the news and getting up and leaving. First of all, you deserve a break at that .1 of the things that came up, though, when you're talking, you go back to Kurt, who I want to work with a broadcaster. I don't want to work with a sports personality who's breaking it down. And I do see once in a while on Twitter there are people who say, why do they hire sports people instead of broadcasters to do this job? And so I want to know how you would look at that from today's perspective. I mean, I think there's bringing on Tony Romo and Tom Brady has already been signed to a contract, and it didn't take long for Luke Wilson to land at a Bell property, and so on and so forth, versus finding a broadcaster. How do you look at that? Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 00:36:29 Well, I think you learn really quickly by talking to guys who are playing the sport, whether or not this guy can talk. Okay, I'm going to go back to my one page Jet days because we're hanging in there a little bit. When I got there, the Jets Mike Smith, who was the general manager after John Ferguson had acquired Eddie Olsen as part of a trade. Eddie is a great talker. The other thing that I always was amazed by with Eddie was his ability to remember names. I would not see him for about three or four years, and he would just, granted, I was with the team for a year, then you could go another ten years and not see him, and he would remember your name. He was very good at names, but the one thing he was very good at, he was very good at talking. So when he got into broadcasting, there's a guy who gets it. There's also a guy who understands that when his hockey career is over, he doesn't have to leave the sport. So if I can talk really well, maybe I can move into broadcasting. Some guys can do it, some guys cannot. Tony Romo, for me, is exceptional, and the reason being is that he's never really lost the fact that he understands who his audience is. He's explaining things to me without making me feel like I'm a dummy. But you can tell he's got the ability to get in with the coaches and the quarterback of the opposition team to the point where he's almost calling the plays before they happen. And I love that. It's like the experiment that ESPN went with, and I'm still enjoying it with the Manning brothers on Monday Night Football. Often I don't go over there in the first half because I want to hear the broadcast, but if it turns into a blowout, I still want to watch the football game. I flip over to those guys because they're both great talkers. They're different guys and they're just exceptional at it. But there are some guys that just shouldn't be doing it. But you know what? I understand. They did their time in the league. And sometimes fans don't want to hear it from a broadcaster. They want to hear it from a player who has been there, done that. And I heard that a lot when I was in Winnipeg. But you never played. But the one advantage I have over a fan is that I can go down and talk to a guy after the game and find out why that happened, why that happened, what would you do differently? And I can put that in the memory bank and I can go forward with that. I've always been a believer that if you don't know the answer, it's not embarrassing to say I don't know the answer, but I can find out the answer for that, so I don't have to get too hard. Craig Simpson does a great job. There's a lot of great guys out there that are exceptional. And it's also fun to watch some guys who've got the ability to talk learn. But now we're going to go down a road where I've really watched radio go down here over the last 20 years, and that is the inability to work with your talent, because they're eliminating program directors. And so often now I listen to radio stations, or I listen to sports guys on the sports talk radio stations that are around. And I'm thinking, okay, this guy hasn't improved much in the last three years. And that's because nobody is working with them. And all these guys are coachable. They want to get better. But that's a failure for me on the part of a radio and on television. I think it's also now there nobody's working with some of these guys that have got great potential. And there are some great former players who I think could be sensational color commentators. I guarantee you somebody's been working with Tony oh. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:39:34 They gave him the crash course. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 00:39:35 Absolutely. And he's also at CBS. He was working with a guy who can pretty much do everything right. And I love broadcasters who can do a lot of things. Jim Manskin can broadcast a lot of things. Al Michaels can do it. One of my all time favorite guys in the US was Dickenberg. He could do a baseball game, he could do a football game. He could do Wimbledon. He could do it all. He could do track and field. Wit was another one of those guys in Winnipeg, don could do pretty much everything. And then there's other guys that specialize, like in Canada. My two favorite guys who are specialists in what they did was the late, great Danny Gallivan, who I loved, and Bob Cole in his heyday, could set the tone and you could just feel the emotion in his voice. And he didn't overanalyze. The one thing that I really don't like about broadcasting right now is the one I need to overanalyze everything. Call the game for me and be excited and just give me the descriptions. I still prefer radio over television because Bob Costas once said he said that he had been talking to a legendary baseball broadcaster, red Barber Hall of Famer, and Red had told him. And now I'm telling you because I'd heard Bob say it. And that is the one thing television gives you, is it gives you the picture. And you just have to concentrate on giving it the captions. Vin Scully. Another legend. Vin, on the famous home run by Kirk Gibson, didn't speak for a minute and 43 seconds. He let the crowd speak on television. And I had seen stories where downstairs in the truck I go, Van, start talking. Nothing. Ben, we got to please. We talk. Did that thing. He understood how important it was to let the crowd be as much a part of the broadcast as the actual action was. So I love it when guys are guided and directed and are made better. And I guess Curtin maybe had some bad experiences or he just wanted to have somebody in there who understood the broadcasting game. I think the guys that are coming up now get it. I'm not so sure they got it when they're coming out of the 80s into the early 90s. But, hey, it was an opportunity for me to work the NHL and travel. I loved it. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:41:37 What do you think of this glut of radio companies who are not sending their broadcast teams on the road to call the games? Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 00:41:44 I hate it. I absolutely hate it. It's nothing more than bean counters cutting costs. I think it's essential. There was one game involving the Edmonton Oilers, and there was an injury and they were doing the broadcast. I think the funny part was, is that the play by play team, and it might have been Jack Michaels and Louis de Brusque they were doing the play by play. And the color of this broadcast from Los Angeles, from the studios in Edmonton, and Jean Principal, the host, they flew him 4 hours to Toronto to sit on the set at Sportsnet to host the broadcast when it only is two and a half hours to fly into Los Angeles. There was this injury and I'm kind of going, okay, now this is where I really expect the host to be active. I need the host to go down to that room. But right now they're pretty much handcuffed to their desk in the arenas. Gene Principe did a great job that recently on the Evander Kane wrist being slashed in Tampa, where he went right down to the room and got the information and reported it back. We actually had a guy reporting. So when I see all these guys working out of Toronto and Edmonton, when the games in Los Angeles hey, listen, I'm not going to get I want some inside stuff. I want to know how was the skate this morning? I'm not a big, real big believer in the lines like who's lining up with who and a morning skate, because that's going to change in the first five minutes. Scotty Bowman telling me and Peter Maher, don't waste your time with that shit, because in the first five minutes, if it ain't going, they're going to put it in the blender anyway. Don't waste your time. And if Scotty Bowman saying that, well, then I'm going to listen. So I really hate that. Now I get the COVID thing. I understand why they did it. It's nice to have guys back on the road, but I think it's cheap and I don't think it services the fan base well. It doesn't service the radio listener well it doesn't service the television viewing audience well. They deserve better than that. Just my opinion. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:43:37 I have something that you kind of jarred in my mind. And that was Craig Simpson after he had retired from hockey sometime in the mid ninety s. And the next thing you know, he's wandering the hallways and I was just going to get a cup of coffee or something like that, and I ran into him and I introduced myself and I thought, Why is this guy here? And it turns out he was going to start doing some sports work and here he was learning radio and he was like I thought to myself, yeah, he's going to go far because he's in the right building surrounded by the right people and it's pretty easy to make that transition. You're already a performer and all you need is that last little bit of here's how the microphone works, and here's, here's what you do. They're 90% of the way there, so I'm not surprised. Craig Simpson has had a great career that he has had behind the microphone as well. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 00:44:24 Well, only if you looked a little better. If it only looked a little more appealing on television, if his hair wasn't such a mess. I can say that because I know Simmer and he'll probably laugh. I'm sure he will laugh. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:44:34 He's so good looking. His radio career died instantaneously and found his way to television. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 00:44:39 Yeah, exactly. So anyway, the business is just kind of radically different. It's just crazy. Yeah, it is. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:44:47 To the point where I don't understand some of the moves that get done and how radio is treated in the landscape. But one thing that I think really resonates with so much that you've talked about, and that's don't be a stats guy. Sports radio is completely unlistenable when you're breaking down the third line and who's going to play center? The average person does not care. And I'm so put off by and I heard it just the other night on a broadcast and I don't want to throw them under the bus, et cetera, et cetera. So I'm not sure they've got a program director, but I don't need to know all your stats information and what you think you know and how that you're just showing off to me. I really need to know some real context to some of the things about why the Blue Bombers have a problem at quarterback for the Great Cup. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 00:45:31 Well, quite frankly, yes, there's probably no program director involved, not getting any feedback. And two, probably had the same issues that I had back in 1990 in Winnipeg, where I was getting worried about the fact I wasn't using my show prep. So let me throw it, all right? Right now I've got stats at the Wazoo. Let me get to them right now, quickly. I can get a couple more things in here. It's not the last radio job I had, but I did spend a year and a half in Calgary at Sports Night 960, the Fan. I did the afternoon show with Pat Steinberg, who I love Pat, great guy. I just love him passionate about what he does. He was also hosting the Postgame Open Line show after the Flames games. My job was to co host with Pat and was to also host the Flames broadcast, which was a blast because I got a chance to work with a legend, peter Marr, in Calgary, and I love Pete to death and Mike Rogers, a former NHL or sorry, Western Hockey League and Oral Hockey Association player. And so I learned lots from those guys, all three of them. But the one thing, I was hired initially to come on board to be a story guy. And through the year in the year and a half, and I was going through some marital problems, too. So my wife at the time was living in Edmonton and did not make the move to Calgary with me. So I don't think my effort was very good in Calgary, I will admit that. But through the year and a half I was there, the job kind of went from, we need you to be a story guy because you're 50 and Pat's 25. Pat's a fancy stats guy. He understands the analytics. I know that you do, but I need you to come on and talk stories. But as the job progressed, the audience and they would do all these audience surveys, and they were all guys ready now, 25 to 40, and stats was a big thing for them. Stories weren't. So I could start to feel that my usefulness at the radio station was not going to be strong for much longer if I didn't become a stats guy. And so I ended up moving on after a year and a half. But I really enjoyed my time in Calgary and I really enjoyed working with those guys. But I'm not a stats guy. To me, I want to hear the stories. I also know it's in trouble in Calgary once, because I think it was Jean. Bellevo had passed away. And I said to Pat, I said, we got to do a segment on Jean Belleville. I can get somebody in Montreal. And Heartbeat. We might have even got Dick Irvin, to use an old guy expression. I have a pretty good rolodex. Anyway, we did this one segment. We talked about Jean Belleville and what kind of guy he was, and he still was my all time first favorite hockey player. My dad took me to meet him at an auto store here in Edmonton in the 60s. He's the very first autograph I ever got, and every time I met him, he just made me feel great. Even in my later years, any time I met him, he was so kind and so generous with his time and was never in a rush. So anyway, we did this one segment and I was told afterwards that might have been a turn off for our audience. I'm thinking this guy's hockey royalty. Like when Gordy passes away, you're not going to stop and talk about Gordy for a segment or two but it's just the audience to change, right? It's not a real issue with the radio station as much as that. Things have changed, but now there's nobody to guide these stations, and it's a shame. They're kind of just flying by the seat of the pants. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:48:39 I gave a pair of Montreal Canadians tickets to a friend. He's a Francophone friend. I was working with him at the moment, and I said, Enjoy the game. I couldn't go. I had to work the shift. And then he came back to me the next day and he said, what were those tickets? And I said, well, they're just the tickets I had. He said, do you know who I sat beside? I said no. It was Sean Beloveaux. Can you imagine getting to the Montreal Forum sitting down in your seat, in your red seat, and you sit beside, and there's Jean Belleville right beside you. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 00:49:06 And did they speak? Matt Cundill (Host) 00:49:08 They certainly did. He had the best time ever. And the other Jean Bellow story I had as my grandmother got sick and she was in the hospital. But Quebec healthcare being what it is, everybody doubles up and she shared a room with John Belleville. And the press, of course, was outside. He just had a stroke, which he recovered from. But outside the building was the French media. There's another morale, and you could look out the window and wait for them. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 00:49:31 Unbelievable. Hey, listen, sports is full of great people. It's funny, I'm always asked who are influencers in my career and my career. I've been lucky. I worked on the media side, and I was able to work behind the scenes, behind the curtain. And both sides. Consider the other side the dark side. I always used to laugh at that. But I worked a year for the jets and I worked for almost five years with the Oilers doing media and public relations in the late 90s, so you get a chance to see how the other side works. So when I look at people who are huge influences on my career in radio, I've had three general managers that stand out for me. The first one was the very first general manager I had in Mooshaw, stan Ravendale. Stan was a guy who did the news on a station that I listened to as a kid. 630 Chat, when they were the hot Rock and Top 40 radio station. Stan would do the afternoon news. So now he's my general manager and he taught me the basics that first couple of years. Then he was replaced. They flipped. Actually, Stan moved it back to Edmonton, and the guy who was the general manager at Edmonton came home to Moustache. His name was Vern Trail. The cowboy. He's been called legendary. And Vern listened for a couple of months, and one day he said, Tiger, let's go down for breakfast. The studio was above a place called the Modern Cafe, which really wasn't all that modern, but we used to go down for breakfast all the time. And he says, so what happened in sports last night? I didn't hear you this morning. And so I said, oh, well, you'll never believe what happened. And I just basically rambled on for about four or five minutes telling him what happened in sports. And I still remember him looking at me for about maybe a ten beat, and he goes, can you write it like that? And I thought to myself what? He says, can you write the sports the way you just told it to me? Don't read it. Don't read it right off of Canadian Press or Broadcast news. I want you to write it or write it in point form where you can do you know what you're talking about? So I need you to just basically tell it to me. So the next two years in Mushy, I worked on it. So Stan and Vern were instrumental. Stan with the basics. Verne told me, I need you to ramp up your personality because you have one and you're doing all these other things for the morning show, but I want you to work on your sports cast. Your broadcasts on the hockey game are crazy, like it's rock and roll hockey broadcast. You're having so much fun. I want you to do that on the morning show. Don't tighten up. So I learned that from Verne. And then the other general manager in radio is Marty Forbes. And Marty, he already had got a broadcaster who learned the basics and learned how to be himself. Marty taught me how important it is to get into the community and that you can take your persona and multiply it times another ten by just getting out into the community and being a role model and always be approachable. And so those three guys in the radio, I could never say enough positive things about Stan I see once in a while and have a coffee with him. I love it. Marty, I talked to, like, every other day, and if we aren't tweeting or texting, one of us is sick. Simple as that. And then the other general manager isn't in radio at all. It's Glenn Sailor. Because the very first day when I got hired at the Oilers, the first question I was asked is, can you move to Houston? Anyone? Whoa. Because I heard all these rumbles about les Alexander was looking at buying the team. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:52:45 I was actually going to touch on all this, but I'm glad you brought this up. I think it was around this time he started to work for the Oilers. And I wanted to talk about that because it was a big deal. Winnipeg had lost its team. Les Alexander come sniffing around looking for a hockey team to buy. We'll let you tell the story. But the story came and went very quickly. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 00:53:04 Yeah, it did. And I'll tell you exactly why. It went away in a minute. But the first question I was asked is, what? We want to hire you. I got this job because I had been doing cable TV. After I left radio and took that little time off, I came back and did a cable TV show called The Edge. And it was on everywhere. And it was a great community plugged in show. I had so much fun, got well looked after. Our clothing sponsor was Henry Singer. And all the clothes I was wearing was Hugo Boss and Ralph Lauren. It wasn't just basic brands. It was top, top brand names. And they would let you keep it. But anyway, so Bill Towilly was looking for somebody to replace, somebody who'd been working there to work alongside him. And he was home one night talking to his wife Sylvia, and slipping through the TV and said, I need to find somebody who can fill this position. And my picture came up. I was interviewing him, hey, there's a guy I should talk to. And anyway, so didn't have to drop a resume offer that one either. I got hired. And then the first question was, the only thing that would stop us from hiring you is, can you move to Houston? And I went, wow. I didn't realize, really? Is it that close? And it was. Got the job, met Glenn, and Glenn said, you know what you're doing. I go? Yeah. Great. Away you go, and don't fuck up. And he laughed, put the Stovey back in his mouth. And the one thing I learned from Glenn was, you always have to show backbone. If I ask for your opinion, I want you to give it to me. Don't candy acid, don't sugarcoat it. And so I learned that when your opinion is asked for, you give it. And the other thing I learned from Glenn was I was very supportive of everything you did, and if there was an issue or there was a learning episode out of it, he would pull you away quietly. There was no yelling across the room, nothing. He was very good at that. So I always respected him for that. And I also understand why his players love him so much and why they played so hard for him was because he was able to pull the right levers. He was not a micromanager, which I see way too much of these days. Just let the talent go. You know what you're doing, don't fuck up. As simple as that. So, anyway, so I spent five years with the orders, and it was a blast. It was great. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:55:10 I'll bet it was. Those are some great times, because I think shortly after you came on board, the team went on this great run. Young you know, they didn't have the most finances in the world to go and buy players, but great coaching, and they would get to the playoffs, and they would knock a team out, and. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 00:55:29 Then they play Dallas. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:55:30 Yeah, the Marchant Golden 97. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 00:55:37 Scores, first stop scores. And the essence, head Oilers are going. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:55:46 To move on the next year. They knocked off Colorado and found themselves moving ahead again. I think it was probably Dallas they played after, and then Dallas prevailed this time out. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 00:55:57 Yeah, that's exactly that's exactly how it worked. Well, you mentioned that series against the Avalanche. The picture on the wall here, the Kujo signed for me. It's of him making a save off of I think it's Adam Denmarsh, where he's reaching back with a stick. And that was a seven game series. That was a lot of fun. There were some great guys on that team. The team just wasn't quite good enough. But it was as good as you could get with the money that they have. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:56:21 Bill Garrett, Billy Garrett. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 00:56:23 Bill I still talk to Bill. Dougie wait. Mike Greer, todd Marchant, sean Horcuff. There's a bunch of guys on that team that are great guys, and I love the fact that they're still working in the NHL because they have a passion level that's extremely high, and they don't want to leave the game. And it's not because they don't want to leave the game. Some guys are pulled away from the game screaming and kicking, but these guys were good quality people and know the game and now are doing great jobs with the teams that they're at. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:56:51 You didn't say Roman hammerlike. You also didn't say yanni neimana. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 00:56:55 It's funny you should bring those two guys up, because I had to pick both of those two guys up at the airport when they got traded here. The hammerlock one was funny. That was the El Nino winter. I think that might have been 98 or 97, and we didn't have a stitch of snow in Edmonton, and we made that trade for Hammer, and he was flying in from Tampa that night. It was New Year's Eve and this snowstorm moved in and man, did it come down. I swear you could just see the snow piling up as he was just sitting in the car. It was just piling up. And that was Roman's first look at Edmonton was all the snow and thought, this is what I expected. Roman was a good guy and Jani is a colorful character too. And another one of those guys I picked up at the airport, he had those really good discussions with these guys about being traded from Tampa and Philadelphia to come to Edmonton. And they, of course, grilling you and didn't so much want to know about the team, wanted to know about the city. And so I always felt like you were the tour guide for those guys when you picked them up. Those are the things that you not only learn, you're able to put to use when you get back into radio again. Matt Cundill (Host) 00:57:53 I look at the culture of hockey over the last 20 some odd years in the two thousands and the way where the players come from, the lifestyles they lead. And a Canadian team has not won the Stanley Cups since 1993. Now, there have been opportunities for many of those teams to win because there have been appearances in the finals. It's not that it's impossible for them to win, but the way hockey works I don't know that it is because they're not getting the best free agents. Because you don't want to come and spend half the winter in Winnipeg and leave your wife all winter in Winnipeg or Edmonton or Calgary when you could be playing in a Tampa and not having to deal with snow and being away. And then there's the money situation. There's a tax situation. I think the chips are all sort of aligned against Canadian teams winning the Stanley Cup. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 00:58:41 Well, the biggest thing, too, is that players want to go where they think they can win. Players want to go where they think they can be paid and players go where they think their better half will enjoy. Can they immerse in the community? The one thing I learned this in Winnipeg first and in Edmonton it's also there calvary also has it the wives and girlfriends have as an association. So they work really close together and they get involved in community projects. I really enjoyed working with those associations. I didn't work so much with the group in Winnipeg, but I worked with the ladies here and I watched how tireless they were in working with the community. But I think it might have been Doug Wade who said to me, he said, the secret and the key is in January. He said, when we go on a sixgame road trip is to make sure that Allison gets down to Phoenix for ten days. It's a bit of a break for her. Her family was there, but all those guys recognized. It's important for the ladies to get away a little bit. And if they're not involved in the community, it's not going to work. But there's so many of them start to take these community projects under their wing and then fall in love with them. Billy Garren's wife Carol, same thing, got involved with numerous charities here and they absolutely fed off of it. But those are the three things. Guys want to win, they want to get paid and they want to make sure they're better. Half is going to be busy and it's going to like it and you have to work at that. You have to work at all three, but it can be done. I think the one thing that is interesting since 1993 is all the Canadian teams that have got to the Standing Cup Final have one thing in common. What is it? All Austin game seven. It's close. I think you can compete. I think the salary cap world makes it so you can compete. But there's the odds there's more American teams than our Canadian team. So it's hard just to get to the final, let alone win it. If I look at all those teams, vancouver could have easily beat the Rangers in 94. The Koenox could have easily beaten the Bruins in eleven. Flames probably should have beaten Tampa in six way back in 2004. And the Oilers just they played so great in game six and then came in a little flat to start, fell behind in game seven in Carolina. And when you fall behind in game seven, you sell them, come back. So they all had opportunities to win, but the odds are stacked against you because there's only so many Canadian teams and there's so many American teams. Now let me just quickly get back to what we're talking about with Les Alexander because we're talking about American teams. The one thing that really bothers me more than anything is there's a lot of reasons to not like Gary Bettman. He's the commissioner. He makes decisions on behalf of the league, so he makes decisions on behalf of the owners. First and foremost, those are his boss. But I've never seen anybody work harder to keep a team in the city than I watched from the sidelines. Just I wasn't way back, but I was close enough to watch how hard he worked to keep the team in Edmonton. And so I always hear these stories when people are saying, oh, he doesn't care about Canadian teams and I think that that is nothing but bullshit. He realizes he's got to have really good, strong Canadian teams. Gary also worked very hard on getting the arena built here. He worked with not only the hockey team, he worked with the ownership, obviously worked with the city, worked with the province, although they didn't kick in anything. It sounds like the province is going to kick some money in on the Calgary Arena. Great, because I don't want to see the Flames go anywhere either. It's important to keep these teams, but Gary Bettman works behind the scenes without a lot of limelight on them to keep Canadian teams active. He didn't want the team to go from Winnipeg to Phoenix. Trust me, the arena was the problem in Winnipeg. Ownership was also a problem in Winnipeg with the arena. Couldn't sell it. We got to play in that place. No, let's get them out of here. So there was nothing that could be done there to save the team, but to have them come back to Winnipeg as long as the ownership was lined up properly and True North has done an unbelievable job of that. I think it was an easy move for Gary to say, we got to get back up there. I'm sure you'd like to get back into Quebec City, but there's a lot of things. Once again, you're running up against opposition like the orders did back in 78. But a lot of those teams don't want a Canadian team in well, the. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:02:37 Montreal Canadians don't want to share twice. They would have to share the Canadian revenue and then their local revenue. And local being Quebec, you got to split some of that, too, with RDS. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 01:02:47 Yeah, exactly. So there's a lot of issues. But Gary worked very hard in keeping the team from running away to Houston. And I just don't think enough people understand that. Some people think that every time I've gone online and I've said that, people just are very dismissive, honestly, without a word of a lie. My office was only about four or five doors down from the big guys. And so you'd see him in there quietly. So there were sometimes he would come into town, he wouldn't even know he was here. But you could see he was working hard keeping the franchise here. So if people want to discount my thinking on that, they are more than welcome to do it. It's a free world, last time I checked. But I'm here to tell you that I watched it and I know why the team is still here. They found somebody to take over from Peter and a great group, and then they're okay, stepped up when that group was ready to step away. As long as there's somebody there. And the other thing, too, I don't need to see real. I don't want to see owners. I don't know about you. I know in the NFL, owners are always on camera. We always see Jerry, those Dallas Cowboy games, you know, we always see a shot of Pat when he was around with the Broncos when he was alive, or, you know, Mr. Craft. There's always somebody. But I really like it when ownership is there. Just pay the bills and let the hockey guys run the hockey team. That's all I ask. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:03:59 It's even worse when they go and pick up the trophy at the end. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 01:04:03 Yeah, that's another one. That's America. I think you should hand it to the guys who work for it. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:04:08 Myself, I think of two cases when it comes to Gary Bettman and his relationship with Canadian teams. There's the right way and there's the wrong way, and the right way to do it was the way Mark Shipman did it. And that was we'll build the arena, we'll put the infrastructure in, and we'll do what we need to do to do it, and it happened, and there's the wrong way. And that would be the way Jim Pacili tried to operate. And that was outside the lines. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 01:04:34 Yeah, I forgot about that one. Anyway, I think that Gary Batman in that regard is very undervalued. And like I said, I'm not saying everything Gary does is great, but I can tell you right now, I know why the team is still in Edmonton. I know where there's a team in Winnipeg because I know he worked hard in both cases anyway. So having the opportunity to see how things run behind the curtain was invaluable for me. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:04:56 In just a second, we'll talk about Britain's battle with cancer, what makes Edmonton the city of champions, and the sports radio experience in both Calgary and Edmonton, where Bryn got to team up with my old pal, Jake Daniels. And by the way, if you're looking for some more Edmonton radio nostalgia, look no further than episode 100 in this series, where Jake Daniels and myself did a very, very, very long reunion episode. I think you'll like it. You can find that at the bottom of the episode page along with the transcript to this episode. Over at soundoffpodcast.com Tara Sands (Voiceover) 01:04:56 Transcription for the The Sound Off podcast powered by Potent your podcast is an SEO gold mine. We help you to dig out start your free trial now at Poddin IO. Tara Sands (Voiceover) 01:05:45 The sound of the podcast. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:05:46 And then you got to bring it to Sports Radio because Marty Forbes comes at you. And this is just after I left and I'd gone to Montreal. But there's an opportunity now to start sports Radio in Edmonton. You're not going to be the rights holder. You're going to have a sports station. You're clearly the right guy to be doing this because you can work within the lines and outside the lines at the same time. You're the perfect hire for this. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 01:06:11 Well, you know what's funny about that is that I had actually gone from the Oilers to work at CTV Edmonton on the television side. I was the sports director for six and a half months, and I got to work with Ryan Roche was working with me, and Brian Mudrick were working with me. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:06:26 And so, literally, you're in the building. By the way, I'm right across the. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 01:06:30 Hallway from Marty and the radio side. So the secret for me on television was, okay, so I'm running it as a sports director. I'm going to hide myself on the noon cast I'll put the really good looking guy, Brian Richard, on at supper time, and Brian Mudrick, who wants to go out and party after his shift. It's a perfect shift. You can go right from doing the evening sports. I love working with both guys who are fantastic, but Marty came knocking on the door and said, look, I want to try doing something. I want to launch the chum guys running the team network at the time, and they wanted an Edmonton affiliate. We had 1060, which was running oldies at the time, and Marty thought, well, that might be a pretty good fit. We can run their network programming, but we need a morning show. That's all we need to do. So he came over and he talked me into leaving television, where I was just kind of getting established and having some fun doing it. But the thought of starting something right from the ground up with a guy that I had known a lot about and respected, but it never worked for him. The only thing that concerned me a little bit about coming over to work for Marty was that Gary wasn't convinced that that format was going to work in Edmonton, and Marty convinced him that it would. So anyway, Marty got me to come over and he says, well, I want you to host the morning show and then just make sure everything is running okay. It's pretty easy. We just pull everything off the satellite so it's not going to be a real problem. So you just got to worry about the morning show. And so we were listening to a lot of American sports morning shows and they were basically a traditional sports guy, so that was going to be me. And we need a guy who's more like the fan, the guy who's more prepared to sit in the seats and sit in the press box. So we had a list of guys that we're looking at and we're wanting to take a look at those guys, and we wanted to look at a few other guys, but we didn't really know who. And we're sitting in Marty's office and our friend Jake Daniels walks by, hey guys. And so we talked with Jake a little bit and he leaves. He's happy go lucky the way he always is. And I turned to Marty Go. What about Jake? He's a sports guy, he likes to go to games. So we ended up hiring him. And then we ended up doing the morning show together, which was a blast. And the one thing I was told, jake, don't think like a sports broadcaster. I need you to think as a fan. I need you in Section O. I don't need you in the press box. I got that. I don't need you even to go down to the locker room. Although sometimes he did piss off the football team a few times because Jake would go down there and so unassuming in a lot of ways. And the funny thing about football teams is the guys that are the most down to earth are the offensive line guys. So they immediately like jake. So Jake would come down a few times. They would just go on around him. One player that they had here who didn't like to deal with the media was Mike Pringle. Dave Jamieson, who was the longtime public relations guy for the football team, said, Mike Pringle really only liked one media guy in this town, Jake Daniels, because he didn't fear that Jake was always looking to undercut him or find some shit on him. It was always, hey, how you doing, Mike? Those guys seem to get along very well. The only problem we had with Jake was that the offensive line guys like to have a beer or two in their stalls after a game, and they would offer Jake one. And of course, Jake was always too kind to say no, so he would have a beer. And Dwayne Manduziak, who was the longtime equipment manager, and a few of the other media guys would look over at this guy that they perceived to be a media guy having a beer with players in front of them in the locker room. It didn't go over with some well, mostly with Dwayne and some of the other media guys, and I just laughed. I figured that's how it had to work, but I didn't know how long it was going to last. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:09:58 Well, that's how Jake is. Jake looks like by the way, I know that we're on a podcast and I can't produce a picture necessarily, but Jake looks like Greg Allman with the long hair, and, you know, he's got a beer in his hand and that's who he is. And by the way, he had co hosting experience. He co hosted with Jeff Woods and he cohosted with Sleddog, and then he spent five years co hosting with me. And now there he is. He makes a transition over to Am and works with you. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 01:10:22 And so the first two years, it was frustrating to listeners because they couldn't listen to us online. That was a big thing then, right? I could turn on my computer, I can go to their website, and I can hit listen live. And we didn't do it. And Marty kept saying, well, we don't really have that in the budget. I found out later that the reason why we didn't go online for the first year was because Marty didn't really want Gary to listen to the radio station Listen. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:10:48 My thought exactly was the Baron Edmonton ran so well. It was because Gary couldn't hear it. And I think I was offered a job in 2004 in St. Catherine's, and somebody said, no, you can't have this job because Gary will hear the station and your life will be miserable. And I thought oh, okay. But listen, that story you're telling completely checks out. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 01:11:10 After we get into our second year, I decided we needed an afternoon show and now we're running Bob McCauley live. Because part of the agreement we had was if we ran Bob and his Primetime sports live out of Toronto, which ran, I think it ran from three to five here, if I'm not mistaken. I can't remember. But the agreement was we had to run Bob's show live until 05:00, which was our afternoon show. And in exchange for that we would get the NFL games for free. We would get the World Series and the baseball playoffs for free, we would get the World Juniors for free. There was a lot of really good bonus benefits that we got from partnering up with the Fan. Nelson Millman, great guy, it was a great deal with us. But we also realize that for this to work, we got to be a little more local. So I convinced Marty to hire a guy that I've known for a long time named Bob Stafford. Marty didn't know anything about Bob, but I did. I'd known Bob from Moe's Sports Parlor as a bar. I think Bob might even have been bartending for a while. But Bob knew every stat and Bob also had the very important fact that he had an opinion. And if you're going to be a good talk show host, you need to have an opinion. You can change your mind on that opinion once in a while, but just stick to your guns for the most part. So I convinced Bob to come on board by the time because I've learned in the US that a lot of the stations were letting guys by 2 hours and coming on and doing a show provided they were good enough and could fit the parameters inside what the radio station wanted. So Bob came on and did his show, Total Sports, and he was on from five to seven. And I went, we got to get this guy out of three. So eventually what we did is we cut a deal with the guys at the Fan to take Bob's show and bump it back after that's Bob McAllen show and run it on a tape delay and then we ran staffer from basically three to six and then the other show. But the moment we started launching and then we did an evening show where we hired Jason Gregory, another guy that I always believed in and hard worker, really well plugged in. So we ended up adding more local shows and the station just took off and after eight years of it, I was just burned out. And then of course there was changes at management and once again when changes are made, changes are made. Guys want their soldiers. I wasn't going to fit and they wanted to go in a different direction. I was replaced by Dustin Nielsen. Dustin said, okay, done exceptionally well for himself and I'm so proud of what he's done. As I was being let go from the radio station because they wanted to go in a little different direction. Anybody in radio, television, or that one, to go in a different direction. But when I was let go, they said, Is there anything you want to say? So, yeah, please don't fuck this up. I said, we built this station for the last seven and a half to eight years. When people told us that it wasn't going to work here, it's working here. We're generating revenue here, so make sure that you don't screw it up. I'm as proud of the station now. It's the only all sports station in the country that's still on the air that doesn't have the rights to anything. And that's because they generate and drive revenue. So I'm as proud of the station now as I was the day I left, as I was the day I started there. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:14:14 Yeah, you look back to the recent, even the most recent cuts that Bell made, where they actually shuttled stations, they shuttled Winnipeg. I think they got rid of Calgary and they got rid of another market, Hamilton. And now they play comedy on those stations because it was too expensive to run sports radio. But here's Edmonton, which I guess sort of sits as an outlier. It makes money and always has it's. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 01:14:41 A comment to Matt on the city. The city is a sports crazy city. The joke we always used to say at the radio station is, when the orders play great, that's good. When the orders play poor, that's better. Because that's when you see the inflamed passion of the sports fan, is when teams are struggling, everybody wants to jump on board. Maybe they think they've got the answer and they can solve it. Even though I've always believed that. You know what, the announcers and the people who listen and talk on radio stations are still not going to be any smarter than a Ken Holland or a Glenn Sailor who've been around the game forever. Trades don't just suddenly happen. They've been worked on for months. That's what I learned behind the scenes. You know that trade they just made yesterday? They've been talking about that three, four months ago, and it just stayed on a back burner. You know, there's a lot of talk that the Oilers and Flames are looking at making deals right now just to kind of boost things a little bit. Oilers because of injuries, flames because they can't seem to score goals, although they did last night. But I can guarantee you, those general managers, they've been working on these deals for a long time. And fans always seem to think that these guys, they think they're ahead of the game. They're already four or five moves ahead than your average fan, but fans don't understand that. And the fans look at wins and losses, and basically that's how they determine whether or not the team is being run properly. And it's way more than that. It all boils down to one thing trades only get done first and foremost if the math works. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:16:02 Give me an example of a trade that you knew of that you sat on and didn't hint it as a rumor because you knew how it would affect the player of the family. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 01:16:14 Well, the Billy Garrett trade was coming for a while, and I always tried to stay a little arms length on that stuff. I didn't want to be in that corner office and that kind of stuff. Although being involved at draft time was different for me, I like to be right in there. I'd like to hear how the process worked. People blame GMs when we don't draft properly or they draft properly or whatever. The GM is just a figurehead there. The scouting department is looking after all that stuff. But on the one trade, the bill of guarantee had been coming for maybe a few weeks, and there hadn't been a lot of talk externally for that one I'd heard about. And I still remember when the trade came down. Kevin Low made the trade, and my phone rings. I'm at an event with Doug Wait, and Dougie and Bill are tight, two American guys, but really close, best of friends. And the one thing Kevin said, he says, you know where Waiter is? I said, he can't be more than 10ft from me here at the Cross Cancer Institute. Doug was going around signing autographs, going through the wards, down with the kids and that kind of stuff. He said, well, give him a call me, because we've just traded Bill. I had to go over and get him to phone Kevin. I gave him a little bit of a heads up on that one because I didn't want it to be a total shock. I wanted to have him think about it just for a couple of seconds before he phoned Kevin. But that one had been kind of cooking for a little bit, if I recall correctly. But generally, I didn't want to be involved. I didn't want to be in the rooms on a lot of that kind of stuff. I just need to know when we're getting down to the crunch. Right. But the other thing, too, that sometimes I don't think fans fully understand. And this one happened when I was in Winnipeg in that first year, and the jets traded Dave Elliott away to Toronto. So when you watch a player who's been traded inside the room, which I'd never seen before, go around hugging guys and the tears are flowing and you see how gut wrenching it is, it really does change the way you view trades. Fans want to trade players. They don't think of the emotions. They don't think of what it will do to the internal chemistry of a hockey club. I'm assuming it's the same for football, but I watched the pure 100% emotion from those players as they went around to say goodbye to everybody, saying goodbye to the equipment guys, saying goodbye to everybody, the medical training staff. And that is the one thing that I've always remembered. I remember that one vividly, and I've seen it happen with the Oilers when I worked there. And so every time I hear people saying they want to trade this guy for that guy, sometimes I think, you know what? You just got to be careful. You don't completely unplug the room when you take a player out of the mix. So I never really was involved in watching or listening to how those trades came down. I might have known a little bit about some of them, but watching how the trade plays out in the room when it happens, it's hard. Or watching that guy pack up all of this stuff in a team bag and head out that door for the last time, it's tough. It's tough. It's an emotional thing. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:19:01 Fans really don't know much after game two of the 1993 playoffs, quebec and Montreal, I listened to I think it could have been CJD or CIQC or whatever it was at 600 at the time. Caller calls in to suggest the following trade patrick Wah to Ottawa for Peter Saturkowitz for draft picks because the halves are down to nothing to the Nordics in round one. And fans really come on, don't panic. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 01:19:26 The people who are running the team, they may not be perfect, but they certainly have a better idea of the inner workings of the club, the inner workings of the league than you ever will then media ever will. I've been blessed. I've had a great media career, and I've also been able to see behind the curtain to see how it works. And it's been invaluable for me. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:19:47 Well, I mean, we're at a point here where Gary Slade has to sell his entire company for $1.2 billion because he can't get his own radio station in Edmonton on the Internet. And so he does sell it and there are changes. And then you left the team at 1060 and it gets good. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 01:20:05 Well, so then I went away. I decided, well, maybe it's time to get maybe this is a hint to get out of the business. I did one thing I knew that I needed to decompress. So I basically took almost a year and did nothing. Best thing I could have ever done. It gave me a chance to see life, and it was a little clearer vision. And I ended up going for lunch with a friend of mine, Jonathan Huntington, who is the head of marketing at Northlands Track, the race track. He hired me. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:20:30 What a voice, by the way. What a voice. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 01:20:32 Oh, John. He's got pipes. He's got great voice. So anyway, another one of these ones where I never handed a resume out. He just hired me at Earls over lunch, and I got a chance to go to the track and work in the marketing department. Great experience. Loved it. There's a lot of different cultures at a race track, man. There's also the casino and the racetrack there. So the culture, it was a great learning experience for me. But then I got Kelly Kersh, called me in Calgary and asked if I was interested in coming down there. And that process was a little longer. I think I had to wait like six weeks. I went down one day to Calgary and did a little demo for Kelly so he could set it to Toronto. And then they basically hung me out for six weeks before they hired me. And that was kind of nerve wracking, but that was an opportunity to get back in it. And I loved it. It was great. Good fun, good people. The hockey team treated me really well in Calgary, both of them, the hitmen and the flames. I enjoy it, but it's funny how you just seem to keep coming back to the media. And then when I left Calgary to come back to try to save my marriage, which I could not do, I take about 90% of the blame for me because it's the old thing. I think I had a mistress in my marriage, and it was called Sports and Media. And I should have spent more time, I should have focused better, but I couldn't save the marriage. But I'm still very close to my ex. We talk maybe a week, everyone's week. But anyway, so I came back and I decided I was going to do radio sales. So I came back and I started working for Newcap in radio sales. Did that for two and a half years. And all the way through that two and a half years, all I could think of is how badly I treated radio salespeople. When I was on air talent or I was programming, I used to ask them, hey, listen, we want to go to the Great Cup. We want to go to the Stanley Cup finals. And I'd be asking them two weeks before. And then I came to realize when I worked in sales, that to sell anything, you need to be thinking two to three months ahead, not two to three weeks ahead. And so I phoned a couple of my favorite sales guys and apologized immediately. And while I was doing it, I wasn't very good. I was going to cold calling, I wasn't very good at that. But I was a relationship seller. Once I got in the door, everybody loved me, and it was easy to get renewals and that kind of stuff. It was a great experience, but it wasn't what I do. And then Jackie Ray Greening and John Roberts. They wanted to see if I was interested. Dale Smith was a longtime news voice at CSCW, and had been for 40 years the traditional CBC Newsread CSCW. He broadcast the news and Jackie Ray said, I want you to come over and replace Dale. She really pulled over and trail. She said, I want you to tell the news. I don't want you to broadcast it. Can you write it the way you would tell it to me? I said, yeah, I can do that. And then John Roberts said, can you come over? We'll do the top and the bottom stuff at CSU and then walk over to work with Terry. And at that time, it was Bill Cowan, and can you do the news and the sports at K 97? So I put a lot of walking miles on in that building for about two and a half years, and that was my last radio gig. And then new people came on board, and so they wanted to trim the size of the morning show, so it was time to go. And that was my last radio gig. And then I did what I've been doing all the way through my career, and that is I pull back, decompress, and think to myself, how can I take the skill set that I have? How can I reinvent myself? And I see too many guys my age who just can't vision that they would be doing anything other than television or anything other than radio when the marketplace is changing so dramatically. Look at the digital changes in media. There are so many opportunities to take your skill set elsewhere and have fun with it. So that's why I decided maybe it was time to do something different. And I've never regretted it. By the way, the time was right. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:24:21 With that mention of Terry Evans, that brings to an end a streak of about 47 episodes that we have not mentioned Terry Evans. So you've ruined that. We have to readjust the Odometer. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 01:24:33 Damn it. Damn it. Okay. I've known Terry since 89, 90. So for me, working with Terry was great, great fun. I enjoyed it. And Bill was a blast, I got to tell you. I only cracked and broke down once when on the air. And I'm an emotional kind of guy, but I still remember vividly, and I was there for a lot of bad news stories, but the one that I still remember vividly, and I'm still a little embarrassed about it, but I shouldn't be. And that was I had just done the sports, and we've gone to a commercial bing up on my phone. The Edmonton lawyers are announcing that Dave Samanco has passed away. It just floored me. And I said to Terry and Bill, I said, we're going to break in. This is big. And so Terry says, okay, we're going to come back from this commercial. Bryn do the story. And I don't think it had dawned on me that when I worked at the Oilers, I had an office, and on one side of me was Dougie Rice brought when he was there. And when Doug had left, the guy who sat in that office. Next was Dave Cemenko. And Dave had a real knack. And that would be he always seemed to know when I needed a little bit of a boost, an emotional, fun laugh or a boost, because I would look up from my desk, and there was the big guy standing the door. How are you doing? I said, oh, I'm not doing okay. He would always say something that kind of boosted me up. I feel great. When he left, Sammy was a great guy. But anyway, so I went to broadcast that we lost him, and I broke down. I had to get Terry to finish it, and I felt brutal about it. My job here is to report the dews. I got too emotionally involved in that because I knew Dave too well. But when I think about it now, sometimes you got to look human, right? And I think I did. It's the only time where I had a struggle with anything. And that one, I guess it still bothers me, but it shouldn't. But working with the guys in K 97, that would have been my second go round with them. It's always nice when the place that blew you out one time where you left will hire you back. I'd go back and work there a third time. I always loved it. It was great. But like I said, you've also got to recognize that as you get older, you've got to find other things to do. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:26:33 What are those things that you've found, really? Because you come with relationships. You can tell stories. You're kind of built for this world that we're in now with podcasting and streaming and all that. I mean, you're totally built for this. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 01:26:47 So after I left K 97, took a little bit of time, and two weeks after I left K 97, I thought I was getting a breakout of shingles. And at this point, now I'm divorced and seeing a wonderful lady who I'm still with and I just love. But she said, you're tossing attorney once. You just go to the hospital and get that looked at because it's bothering you. So I go into the hospital, and I catch the University of Alberta Hospital on a really bizarre quiet night. Nobody in there. I didn't even know if they were open. There was nobody waiting compared to the way it is these days. And so the doctor spent some extra time with me and said, it's probably shingles. But you know what we're going to do? Let's do a CT scan from your chest right down to your crotch. Sure. Okay. Make sure everything is good. And about a half an hour later, two doctors walk into the room, and the one doctor says, we're convinced that this is the early onset of shingles. We can get to this real quick with meds. And I look over at the other doctor, and he goes, Hi, I'm Dr. So and so from oncology and I kind of went, oh really? And I said, so what is up? And they started laughing. He says, you're never going to believe it. So we're doing the scan of you and on your right kidney we see this little tiny little tumor. It's no more than 2. It'll be cancer because that's the kind of tumors that you get there, but we can remove that. So we're going to have you see a specialist. This is right after K 97 ends up that they weren't removing the tumor, they were removing my right kidney. So that put me down for about six months, but it gave me a chance to sit on the patio. It was beautiful summer, and so as I was recuperating from losing my right kidney, I thought, what do I want to do next? How can I take my skill set and reinvent myself? And I decided I wanted to come back and do a sports podcast. That's what I can do. I'll go out and sell it. But I got around to seeing eight business guys that I knew in the Edmonton market just for lunch to see what was going on. All eight of them said, so what do you want to do? And I said, I want to do a podcast. And before I even had a chance to explain what I wanted to do, they all said, oh, we want to do that with our company. And I said, well, why aren't you doing it? They said, well, we don't have a voice. We don't know how to speak in front of a microphone. We don't know how to record it, we don't know how to edit it, we don't know how to get it out there. The only thing we have is the content. And so seven of the eight guys I talked to all said the exact same thing. And they recognized, you know what, maybe I should be doing corporate podcasting for guys like this. So I started to reinvent my reinvention, and then I started buying equipment. I got a few guys on board. I started doing podcasts. I hosted. They came on, they talked about their product, and I started to ship it out there and they would pay me X amount of dollars every month. I was making money at it. It was great, and it was going really, really well. And then I was going to go to a friend, said, I want you to come and do a podcast at the World Junior Hockey Championship. We're going to the Czech Republic. I'm taking you, not going to cost you anything. I just need you to come and do the podcast. We'll get a credit or whatever. We'll get to tickets. You can go to the games and then you come back. We'll do the podcast at our hospitality suite. The friend is Paul Almita. Azarcan Tours is the name of the company. I'm going again in 2023 to Sweden to do the exact same thing, by the way. But anyway, I hadn't been feeling really good. I've been struggling. I've given this podcast business going, but I was struggling to digest my food in July, and it was bothering me and it was bothering my doctor, who is getting close to retirement, but he's one of those guys who doesn't like to stop till he gets an answer. So we'd run a bunch of tests. He put me in for an endoscope, which is a camera down the throat. But the way our system is, in September, they couldn't get me until April. So I kept going, and I did this trip overseas, but throughout the trip, I knew I wasn't feeling really good. I come back home a week later, I collapsed in the bathroom, and next thing the ambulance guys are there. They take me in. They think I've got a bleeding ulcer. And so they take me in, they do the India scope. The next morning they find out. I remember coming out of these days and they said, yeah, it was a bleeding ulcer. But the problem is it was on top of a tumor in your stomach. You have stomach cancer, we believe. And so now I'm going, now what? And it was at the same time COVID was hitting in February of 2020. So now everybody was kind of shutting down, and I had to shut down to have to deal with stomach cancer. And they said, It's stage four, not good, but if the surgery goes really, really well, we can minimize this. You just don't know what's going to happen. So I ended up shutting down my podcast business. After I had got going, I had to shut it down. But luckily for me, COVID kind of shut everybody else down for the same amount of time. And I had my entire stomach removed. They got the tumor out. It hadn't spread any lymph nodes or anywhere, and I had developed a chest infection. After the surgery. They believed the chest infection was gaining hold on me. It was more of a sepsis type situation. They were worried if the family here were told that we don't know if he's going to make it. So I was in ICU for three days. I'm here now. So I survived, had some mentors get me through it, and I recuperated on the back deck on another beautiful summer. And then in October, I got started again and I just picked right up where I left off. And I've since joined up with a company. I'll tell you about that later, but the battle and the journey for me has been unbelievable. The one guy and I've told you this story before the one guy, about a week before I went in to have my stomach removed, darren Drake at TSN, who I know very well, good friend, he and Ray Ferraro on their podcast were talking with Dale Howard, Chuck. So afterwards, Dale and Ray were talking, and they're going to say, I got to phone Bryn, because this is what Dale is going through. It's exactly what Bryn is going to go through this week. So he phoned me and said, I want to get a hold of Dale Howard truck to get a hold of you. Would that be okay? Great. He had his stomach removed, and he was six months earlier, so I figured that'll be a ten minute phone call, and it'd be a really nice call. But Dale texted and said, I want to call you. Got time to talk this afternoon. I'm going to call you in ten minutes. So I got all set for this brief conversation, and I still remember the clock was right at 01:00. We never got off the phone until a little after 215. Dale had called, and he pumped my tires. He had me ready for that surgery. And then a month later, after I'd come through the infection and the eight hour surgery, dale picked up once again on text messaging. And Dale had said, I don't think we got all my cancer that came up. I cannot to this day delete those text messages. They mean that much to me. And I'd only known Dale as a hockey player, but Dale was coaching me through the surgery and to beat this thing. So Dale was communicating with me. And then suddenly, late May or early June, the trail went cold, and I went, uh oh, well, maybe my time's up. Maybe he's got other people to talk to and that kind of thing. And then sure enough, about two months later I'm not sure the exact date, but I believe it's August 13. I got a call ahead of reading it the day I passed away, and I cried on my deck because it meant so much to me, and it was really it really hit me really hard. And then all it did was it told me that I needed to get back on my feet. I have the scan done, which told me that they didn't see any spread so far, so just keep going with it. And so then I decided to refocus and get back to work. And then the following spring, rob Lalasher at Road 55, it was just a creative company. They do great video work in Edmonton. Said, we want you to come over and bring your clients over with you. I want a bigger footprint with audio podcasts, and we can work together. You can do video stuff with us as well, and let's have some fun. And I've been there for a year and a half, and I love working with Rob and everybody at Rode 55. It's been great, but that's the new evolution of me, and I wish there were more guys who have been bypassed in the radio and the television industry to recognize that you can still do stuff in the digital world and still be relevant and. Have fun doing it and earn some cash. Some guys just quietly go away bitter, and I'm not going to do that. The one thing, too, about sitting on that deck contemplating how lucky I am to be alive is the fact that I recognize that I now have to look forward day by day, not year by year. I can't look too far ahead, but I want to recognize the joke at the house here is that when I came back from the hospital was that my spectrum had opened wider. And so I'm noticing the squirrel and the bird at the bird feeder. Everybody here at home wasn't noticing that they were too worried about work or school. They were very singularly focused. But I would hear the wind blowing through the FIR trees, all that kind of stuff. I just think it changed how I view everything. And the other thing too, I wanted to do is I wanted to be as public with my stories I possibly could. And I'm working on a podcast right now with a really good friend of mine. I'll tell you more about it as we get down the line. It's going to be a cancer and sports driven podcast we want to get guys on. We're going to call it Cancer in the Room, and we're going to talk to sports guys who battle cancer and have beaten it, who are beating it, or who are dealing with it. Because I believe that we can tell people that there are success stories when dealing with cancer. The problem is we only look at the fact that we lost a friend of ours a month ago to cancer, or we lost two friends of ours last year because of cancer. There are guys that I know that are very inspirational out there, and their stories can be inspirational to other guys. Dale Howard chuck was an inspiration to me. Dale fought as hard as he possibly could, pump my tires. It would be a terrible waste if I didn't take that enthusiasm that he gave me to fight this thing and pass it along to others. And that's what we're going to do now. I'm going to take that digital technology and I'm going to put it to good use on something else. And that's why I think that just because your traditional mainstream media career is over doesn't mean your media career is over. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:36:27 Brian, you took away the last question, which was, what advice do you have for somebody who is looking to the future? You just answered it. And that's exactly what all this technology is for now. And your eyes are wide open and you can see things not only with a square in the backyard, but also in the media front, too. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 01:36:44 The other thing, too, is that I just don't look too far down the line. Just worry about what's going on right now. I now live by two words focus and simplicity. I watch people take the simplest task and make it the most complex task on the planet. And it drives me crazy. I'm going, what? Don't do that to yourself. Just get it done. Just go and do and have fun doing it. When my time comes, and I'm prepared for that anytime now, I'm happy. I've had a great life. I still want to keep going for a long, long time, but I don't have any control over that at the end of the day. But the one thing that I've come to realize is that I don't want to waste any time. Muhammad Ali had a quote, don't count the days. Make the days count. At my memorial service, the first thing that people say will not be, he was a great broadcaster. They're going to have a comment on me as a person, not as a broadcaster. So don't agonize too much over your broadcast career. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:37:40 So in a conversation that we had recently, it was actually Jake Daniels, who we both worked with, and Jake has had a cancer battle himself. I had a meltdown one day, just one of my epic meltdowns, and guess what? It was over Bryn. It doesn't matter because I don't remember because it wasn't very important anyway. But Jake did give me a book that you have. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 01:37:58 I have it right back here. Right back here on my bookshelf, don't Sweat the Small Stuff for Men. If you're a man, buy it. There's one for ladies as well. But I go to this book frequently when I start to get a little wound up about stuff, stuff that I shouldn't be getting wound up about. I've dealt with two things of cancer here, and I'm still kicking around and I'm still loving life. And I'm planning on doing that for a long time until I get tapped on the shoulder. I got a lot of books back here, which is a big joke at the house. They don't know why I keep these books. I like books. There's one here that's called Paddle to the Amazon. It was written by a father and two sons from Winnipeg. I don't think you can even get it. But every once in a while, when I need an inspirational story, I go to it. I like books. But this one here. Don't sweat the small stuff for men. Simple ways to minimize stress in a competitive world. It's as relevant now as it was when I first got this book, which was 1990, I think, or something. It's still relevant. Buy it. Save yourself the hassle. Don't be afraid. Also to have a therapist. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:38:57 Oh, absolutely. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 01:38:58 They're good people. I got a guy here. Dr. Gan's fairness. I love them. And every once in a while I need to talk to somebody who's not directly connected to my family. They're good with the mental health thing going on right now. There's a lot of people out there. Don't be afraid to turn to somebody. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:39:13 In the show notes to this episode will be those two books and as well a link to Dr. Gantz's podcast. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 01:39:19 Which I did, but he's really good anyway. Hey, life is great. Life continues. Man, do I have a few regrets for my career. Yeah, I do. But you know what? We all do. But at the end of the day, I've been lucky. I've seen a lot of stuff and I want to see a lot more stuff. I'm happier to be home now than anywhere else. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:39:37 Well, congratulations. This is the second longest podcast episode ever recorded. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 01:39:41 Who's longer? Matt Cundill (Host) 01:39:42 Jake. But it was he and I. We were both doing a mock show and it was episode 100. We went 3 hours and 15 minutes. Jake had four joints throughout the show, so we're in good hands. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 01:39:52 Not a surprise, which is part of the fun part. I got to say one last thing. Podcasting has become a big thing. So if somebody is wanting to get a hold of me at Rode 55 because he wants some advice, I know they get a hold of you all the time. Then do it. I'm always happy to hand out advice. I'm always happy to find new work. You're the same. Matt Cundill (Host) 01:40:10 Absolutely. Thanks, Brian. Bryn Griffiths (Guest) 01:40:12 Thanks for your time. Tara Sands (Voiceover) 01:40:13 The Sound Off podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski. Social media by Courtney Krebsbach. Another great creation from the Sound Off media company. There's always more at Sound Off Podcast dot com

If you're a Canadian audience member who's tuned in to a CBC News broadcast anytime in the last 20 or so years, this week's guest should look very familiar. We're joined by Wendy Mesley, the longtime Sunday host of CBC's The National, among several other shows in CBC's repertoire. In this episode, you will hear about Wendy's early years as a reporter at CFCF in Montreal, her time in radio in Toronto, and her years at the CBC. Wendy officially retired from the CBC in July 2021, but she hasn't been sitting idly by since then. She's currently hosting a wildly successful podcast, Women of Ill Repute, with her good friend and fellow CBC alum Maureen Holloway. In its first week, the show hit #1 on Apple Podcasts in Canada in the Performing Arts and Arts categories. If you haven't yet, you can give it a listen here. Of course, Wendy shares lots of details about the podcast and how it's come together over the past few months, but we also talk about her time in radio and TV news- specifically the way the landscape of journalism has changed in the 40 years she's been doing it. And for those of you familiar with Wendy, yes, we do touch on a certain controversy you might have heard about when she left the CBC. For more of Wendy, check out Women Of Ill Repute on the Soundoff Podcast Network, give her a follow on Twitter, or check out her weekly newsletter on Substack. Transcript: Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:00:01 The Sound Off podcast: The Podcast About Broadcast with Matt Cundill... starts now. Matt Cundil (Host) 00:00:11 Wendy Mesley. If you are Canadian, and have consumed TV news or the CBC in any part of the last four decades, you likely know this name. Reporter, anchor, host of various news programs, Wendy was a regular TV fixture. What's coming next? A podcast called Women of Ill Repute, where she teamed up with Maureen Holloway, formerly of 98.1 CHFI. They interview awesome people like Jann Arden, Mary Walsh, Allison Dore and Sass Jordan. Last spring, they came to me with a podcast idea, and this has been one of the more rewarding projects I've been a part of in 2022. So in this interview, I covered what I could, and yes, I asked her about getting fired so publicly, amongst other fun things. Wendy Mesley joins me from her newly constructed podcast studio. Wendy, where shall we begin? Wendy Mesley (Guest) 00:01:01 Well, I was born in July in 1957. Not that interesting. We should probably jump forward a few years. Where do you want to start? Matt Cundil (Host) 00:01:09 I do want to start there, actually, because it was in Montreal, right? Wendy Mesley (Guest) 00:01:12 Well, actually, yes, I was born in Montreal, but my parents were together very briefly, and my dad used to work for the Montreal Star. And so two kids from Toronto, my parents, were together for a whole year. And then my mum realized that he liked me a lot more than he liked her that way. So we went back to Toronto when I was just a few months old. So she basically, because of the Napoleonic Code and all that, she had to leave everything behind, including all of the gifts from her parents. They belonged to the man. And she basically threw me in the back of the Volkswagen and drove back to Toronto, at which point she had to find a way of living and paying for herself because she was on her own and there was no family help. And anyway, she ended up rising to the top of her field as a physio, which is kind of cool, and I tagged along and she was great. She was not the easiest person to get along with, but we loved each other and supported each other. So we moved a lot until my grandparents died, my grandmother died and moved in with my grandfather, who was also a character, and went to Lawrence Park Collegiate in North Toronto. And then I don't think I've been back since. Matt Cundil (Host) 00:02:17 I'm always fascinated with next generation broadcasters, or in this case, journalists. And your dad did work in that field. Wendy Mesley (Guest) 00:02:24 Yeah. It's kind of weird because he was primarily a sailor, and that is my obsession, which is windsurfing and sailing and surfing of all kinds. But I wasn't raised with him. But I don't know, maybe there's something in the genes somewhere. But yeah, I think he was more of a- in the last few years, he was much more of a sailor. He was involved in politics too. I think he worked with, I can't remember the name of the NDP premier of BC 1000 years ago, but he worked for him. And he used to send me magic mushrooms that were growing on the front of the building of the legislature. It was 40 years ago, so let bygones be bygones. Matt Cundil (Host) 00:02:57 And you wrote about your mum calling her the original woman of ill repute. Wendy Mesley (Guest) 00:03:02 Yeah, well, I mean, she never wanted to be called a single mom. She was a divorced mum and it took her seven years to get a divorce from my father because she wanted custody and he fought her for it. And I don't think he ever really wanted to raise me because he didn't appear again until I was an adult. So it took her many, many years to raise me on her own. She was what would now be called a single mom. She had a job, she had a life, and she basically taught me to fight for stuff, and to believe in stuff, and to do whatever the hell I wanted. And people would say because she was a single mom and there was no dad around, which in those days was really rare, especially in white Toronto, which is where I kind of grew up. Back in the old days, there weren't any single moms. And so people would say, you're from a broken home. Oh, you're from- and I go, I'm sorry, but your dad is never home. Your dad's a drunk, your dad's whatever. Your parents don't love each other. My mom loves me and so I don't feel like I'm from a broken home. And she never, like, filled me with hatred towards him. It was just always she never really talked about him. It was just it didn't work out. We loved each other, but it didn't work out. And I got you, change the topic. So and then we'd move on. Matt Cundil (Host) 00:04:12 Who'd you take to your grad? Wendy Mesley (Guest) 00:04:14 Oh, Randy. It was Randy and Wendy. Hey, it was North Toronto in the 70s. Randy was my date. We went steady for the last two years of high school, and he was into journalism. And I got a job in grade 13. I had to make a decision whether to go to Jane's house and hang out with her cool family or to apply for a job at Chum Radio in grade 13, which existed in those days. And I remember standing on the corner, do I go to Jane's house or do I go apply for this job? Because I was working in a kitchen, basically slopping plates, and I thought, you know what, it'd be kind of cool. And I had grown up listening to Barbara From and I kind of wanted to be Barbara From, so I thought, Well, I'll go to Chum, and that'll be the start. So I went there and got my first job in radio at Chum, answering phones and Mark Daly, I don't know if you remember him, but Mark Daly, he was such a lovely guy. And he told me about how- I think he was a draft dodger because he'd come from the States. And it was that time, well, by then it was the mid 70s, but he'd come up earlier and he had been the manager for the Spinners, I think he told me. Anyway, he would come into the booth where I was answering the phones, which was basically rigged because you would just say, oh, gee, the song that you just asked for is the one that we're going to be playing in five minutes, but we'll pretend that it's because you asked for it. Anyway, he would come into the booth and do a 1 minute newscast and I thought, wow, 1 minute, because I'd grown up listening to CBC and Barbara From. And everything was always very serious. 1 minute, that's like nothing. And I remember him saying to me, so, Wendy, when you listen to the news, do you listen to how they do it or do you listen to the content? And I knew that the answer for Mark was how. But for me, it was always the content. And that still today is my problem, is I'm way more interested in the content than in the how. But that job led me to getting Randy a job at Chin Radio because there was a technical producer there who said, oh, they're looking for someone at Chin Radio, which was great back in the mid 70s, Serbs and the Croats would be back to back and they had been killing each other 20 years earlier. And at that point they were trying to be nice to each other. So I got a job working there, basically for free, but it was a great experience. And Randy got a job too, working midnight. Matt Cundil (Host) 00:06:25 And you're a graduate of what is now Toronto Metropolitan University. Wendy Mesley (Guest) 00:06:29 Oh. And then I went to Ryerson. Well, yeah, I'm not really a graduate because I left with 31 out of 32 credits. I failed advanced reporting in my third year, because I was working full time at Chum and Chin and CFRB and CKFM and everywhere in Toronto Radio. And I felt like I was learning a lot more. And I thought, well, this school gig, it's not really any harder than high school was, so I can do this. And then a teacher basically gave me 49% in advanced reporting. But then I went on to Montreal and Quebec City and Ottawa and whatever and became quasi-Canadian famous. And Ryerson kept, as it was called then, kept asking me back to speech as this esteemed, venerable journalist. And I was like- and kept announcing me as a graduate of Ryerson. And I could say, Nope, not a graduate, not a graduate. Not ever going to lie about that. And so then they said, well, why don't you contest, you know, that course that you failed and it'll cost you $50. And I was, yeah, okay, whatever. So I can test it. And I got the degree and my mum was happy and she always wanted me to get a degree, so I finally got the degree, as fake as it may be. Matt Cundil (Host) 00:07:29 So tell me about the jump from Toronto Radio to CFCF in Montreal. Wendy Mesley (Guest) 00:07:33 Yeah, so it was at Ryerson and in those days they would hire- well, they still do, except that I think you have to have like five more degrees. But they used to come to Ryerson and Trina McQueen, who should have been president of CBC, should have run the whole thing, but she was a woman, so that never happened in those days. But Trina McQueen came from CBC, which she was at, she later went on to CTV and Tim Kotcheff came from CTV and they both offered me jobs. So the CBC job was in Regina, it was a summer job as an intern, where you would be a paid intern. The CBC job was in Regina and the CTV job was in Montreal, and it was 1979 and it was just before the first referendum. And I thought, I love CBC, but Regina, Montreal, I mean, I felt like being a foreign correspondent and they said, well, do you speak French? And I'm like, un petit peut, la pleune de batante, in other words, no, but what do they know? They didn't speak French, so I lied and I thought, it's bilingual, it's Pierre Trudeau, I'll be fine. But it was pretty French, so I learned eventually. Matt Cundil (Host) 00:08:39 But you know French now, I mean, you get offers to go on French podcasts now and your French is good enough to participate. Wendy Mesley (Guest) 00:08:46 Yeah, but when I first moved there, I was working for CFCF, which is a CTV affiliate in Montreal. And I covered, which is a joke, I covered the first referendum a little bit, but I remember being out in the streets as people who had voted yes were like, smashing windows and stuff because they barely lost the first referendum. And I was like, Lavalum de madame. Lavalum de madame. Please don't realize that I'm English, I'll just walk along with you. And then I fell in love with a Jewish guy and worked in a restaurant. I worked until six, and then I worked at CFCF, and then I worked in this restaurant until eleven at night, and then we would go out and get hammered as one does when they're in their twenties. And yeah, so I basically faked it for the first couple of years and then decided that I really wanted to go to CBC. And then everybody at CBC du Canada in Montreal speaks French. And so I started trying to learn a bit more and learned a bit more and learned a bit more, and a long story, but I ended up learning and I dated a Francophone until I realized that I could understand what he was saying. And then it was next, and then the job came open at the Quebec legislature in Quebec City and nobody wanted to go except me. So I was like, please hire me. This would be amazing. And Rene Levesque was premier and I got to go and cover him. And a few months of being there, being completely surrounded by French, by the end, I spent a few years there. I was there three or four years. By the end, I was almost assimilated. Matt Cundil (Host) 00:10:14 But I have to think back to that era, starting at the referendum and going right through to 1984, and things did change a lot. But I have a feeling we have to go to Quebec City to get the story, that's almost every night occurrence. There was a lot of news coming out of Quebec City in that period because there was a constitution that got signed and patriated in that era. Quebec wasn't going to be a participant. There was the night of the Long Night. Seriously, there's a lot of Canadian history that was centered in Quebec City and you're front and center in Montreal for the referendum, but then in Quebec City for the next number of years as well. Wendy Mesley (Guest) 00:10:46 Yeah, it was a fascinating time because people trusted journalists then and they used to watch The National, which I ended up working for out of Quebec City. And then I moved to Ottawa, and it was during the time of the whole Night Long Eyes and then the constitution and then Meech Lake, and I sort of became Miss Meech when I moved to Ottawa. I covered a lot of constitutional stuff and it was fascinating, but it was also really different being a girl from Toronto, even though I was born in Montreal, I was grown up in Toronto and gone to school in Toronto and didn't speak French in Toronto. But I also didn't have any of the issues or any of the baggage that Anglos growing up in Montreal would have had, because there were massive issues of people growing up as Anglophones and losing their rights and a revolution basically happening around them, referendums happening. And to me, it was just like, you're a bunch of foreigners to me, so you Anglophones are the same as the Francophones. I didn't have to pick a side because I was from Toronto and it was just it was all fascinating to me. But yeah, it was it was a heady, wonderful time to be. And I loved covering Levesque because he was a journalist, and it was the days where there wasn't the same kind of bile as there is now between journalists and politicians. Some of it is merited, I suppose, but yeah, he was real and he would actually listen to your question and answer it. That never happened again. Matt Cundil (Host) 00:12:07 Also, I'm thinking back to the restructuring of the news in that era when The National moved to 10:00 and really sort of reshaped the way Canadians consume their news. We got a steady dose of Nolton Nash for 22 minutes, along with the reporters such as yourself, followed by Barbara From and the Journal, which was a bit of a staple for many, many years in Canadian lives. And if you happen to stick around until 11:00, you could flip over and see Lloyd. Wendy Mesley (Guest) 00:12:34 Yeah, well, you don't mention the most horrible thing that happened in all of that was there was a very brief experiment to run The National at 09:00, like, who's going to watch the- yeah. So we went from having over a million viewers to having like twelve and being a bit facetious, but yeah, the beginning of the slippery slope started then. It was horrible. And I was married briefly to the anchor. He wasn't when I started dating him, but by the end of it, Peter Mansbridge was the new sort of Nolton Nash, and they would not consider me they told me that they would not consider me for the Barbara From job, and I'd always wanted to be Barbara From. They got rid of The Journal and then The National became longer and it was a very heady time. And then I got remarried and I'm still married to Liam. We've been together for 27, 28 years, and we have a daughter and I wanted to have a life. I had a chance to go to the States. I was offered a couple of jobs, one in particular, which was quite tempting, which is great for increasing your salary at home. I have an offer from the States. Will you give me that show? Matt Cundil (Host) 00:13:37 So I did hear about- Peter was offered a job to go to CBS for the morning show. I know that. I don't know why I know that, but what were you offered? Wendy Mesley (Guest) 00:13:46 Oh, it was a big deal at the time. Yeah. The main thing was with ABC, it was for a show called Turning Point. I don't know whether it ever existed, but I remember sitting in the office and it was the day of Waco, the Waco shootout, and there was an uprising, so I was supposed to meet Roone Arledge. You remember him, of course. Matt Cundil (Host) 00:14:06 Yes. Wendy Mesley (Guest) 00:14:07 So I was supposed to meet him to confirm the job offer for this show where I'd be a correspondent. And it didn't happen because of Waco, but I remember sitting in his office and there was this huge poster up there with all of the famous people, all of the anchors and show hosts and everything and thinking I'd probably be, like a quarter of an inch big in this picture at the bottom if I came here. Whereas in Canada, I get my full face. So do I really want to start all over again? Because when I worked in Ottawa, we work basically from nine in the morning until nine at night, six days a week, and that's when there wasn't a big constitutional or a big leadership thing happening. So do I really want to start over? So I decided no, I didn't. Anyway. And I left Canada. Matt Cundil (Host) 00:14:51 When I'm thinking back to that era of ABC, and they're talking about a show called Turning Point, I'm also thinking, but don't they already have 20/20? Wendy Mesley (Guest) 00:15:00 I just worked on TV. I never really watched it. But yes, there's all kinds of- there's 60 Minutes, there's Dateline, there's all kinds of shows, but I don't think Turning Point lasted very long. Matt Cundil (Host) 00:15:12 There was also a Canadian at the helm there, Peter Jennings. Wendy Mesley (Guest) 00:15:15 Yeah, and then he died. He died of cancer, I think. I never met him. I met the guy who then went to- who was filling in for him because it was during the holidays and he was in the newsroom, and then he went to Fox and now he went back to MSNBC to do a streaming show and that didn't work out. And, yeah, it was all very heady. And they put me up in a hotel in New York, right on Central Park, and I was so impressed because it had the lights that came on under the bedside tables when you went to the bathroom in the middle of the night, it was like, wow, luxury. This is like, amazing. Matt Cundil (Host) 00:15:51 You did a lot of shows at the CBC. You did a stint on Marketplace and a few others. Are there any that sort of stand out as being memorable or ones that you like a little more than others? Wendy Mesley (Guest) 00:16:01 Well, the ones that I liked are probably not the memorable ones, because I always liked stories about how the system wasn't working. So my favorite story was about the International Agency for Research on Cancer, which is like terrible pictures. But I actually went to Lyon, which is where their headquarters are, and got the head of it to basically acknowledge that money is what makes the wheels turn there in terms of- it's supposed to be- It's the body that advises the World Health Organization of what does and does not cause cancer. And he says, oh, yes, the influence of money on our decisions is malignant. I thought, oh, that's a quote, because you're the body that's telling people what does and doesn't cause cancer. So anyway, I thought that was a great story and it did well enough, but there's no pictures to talk about what may or may not cause cancer. And so the one that was probably more memorable for viewers was we used to chase down a lot of bad guys, so we get lots of research and ambush them if required. And my favorite was there was a guy, let's just call him a crooked contractor, and we hid out. He wouldn't agree to do any of our interviews. So we basically, in the middle of winter, hid in a van outside of the house where he was expected to go and do a job. And we waited for him to arrive. And it was like hours and hours. And you're, like, dressed in your full winter gear and boots, and you've got the cameras ready and the microphones ready, and you're all ready to leap out. And then finally he arrives. And I chased him down and I said, how dare you give those people all that money? And I'm like, wait, how dare you take all that money from people? So of course, we only ran the one that made sense, but it was a little ridiculous. Yeah, Marketplace was a great place to work, and the people that I worked with were wonderful, and we grew the audience from very small to pretty substantial after a few years of- a couple years of being there. So it was a wonderful experience, but it wasn't really my kind of journalism. I like better stories that were- didn't have great pictures and didn't have moments of jumping out of vans. Matt Cundil (Host) 00:17:59 That's gotcha journalism, right? Wendy Mesley (Guest) 00:18:01 Yeah, some of it was really important, and I didn't want to do the stories about the nonstick lipstick and the puppy farms and all the stories that have been told a hundred times, because my goal in journalism is always to talk about things that people don't know, or to make people think about things. The show that I loved, that I first did after I got the offer from ABC, they said, oh, well, yeah, maybe you could do the show that we've been talking about for a year instead of going to ABC. And then it was called Undercurrents. And so for five years, I did a show called Undercurrents, which was sort of bringing an investigative lens to marketing and media and technology, and some of it's great and some of it's not so great. It was fun. Matt Cundil (Host) 00:18:43 So that's one I would record. Wendy Mesley (Guest) 00:18:45 Undercurrents? Yeah, oh, it was great. It was actually quite successful, but it didn't have anybody in the upper suites who basically wore it and saw a great career out of it, because we scared away advertisers and we were sometimes mean to other journalists. And I actually once interviewed my boss and said, how could you take an ad that would do that when it's not true? It wasn't approved in the upper channels of CBC. Matt Cundil (Host) 00:19:08 How do you look at how the news landscape has evolved in this country? We have Global and CTV, who will often talk about the economics of news and journalism. I'm not even sure we have enough reporters in the Ukraine right now. I can't even name if there are any, or if they're freelance, or if they're actually from CBC or CTV. Are we doing a good enough job to report the news in Canada? Wendy Mesley (Guest) 00:19:32 No, we're not doing- Mainstream media is in serious trouble. The newspapers are in trouble, the CBC, the CTV, Global, everybody is in trouble. And I think we're all feeling that. And I'm lucky to be the age that I am. I mean, I'd rather be 30. I'm lucky that when I was 30, and even when I was in my twenties. It was sort of the prime time of people wanting to get their information. And I'm not anti social media, I mean, that's where I get most of my information these days is by going online and trying to follow smart people that I trust. But it's expensive to send people to Ukraine or to send people anywhere. Matt Cundil (Host) 00:20:12 I mean, you sitting out in a truck, waiting for somebody, with cameras rolling. That sounds expensive. Wendy Mesley (Guest) 00:20:19 Not compared to sending someone to Ukraine with a bodyguard and a translator and a hotel. And also it's Ukraine, so it's part of the battle for Europe. So we're all paying attention, but there are so many stories that we don't cover. There are people, hundreds, thousands of people dying, starving to death, drought, there's so many issues that we're not covering and the only reason we do cover Ukraine is because of the importance that it seemed to have in terms of the battle for Europe and our military stance and all of the Ukrainians who live in Canada. So there's not nearly enough money to cover the stories that deserve to be covered, and I don't think we're covering them the way that we used to. Matt Cundil (Host) 00:20:56 When I hear people get in the face of journalists because you have a camera, or because you've shown up with a logoed vehicle, whether it's CBC, CTV or anything like that, and they say, well, you're just a part of the mainstream media, what are they saying? Wendy Mesley (Guest) 00:21:11 Oh yeah, it drives me crazy. I think that people should be able to criticize the media and I think that's good. I don't think it's nearly as bad, anywhere near as bad, in Canada as it is in the United States where this whole fake news, you can watch Fox television and there's like no basis in fact. So I think that you should be able to argue your point of view on whatever, but it needs to be based in fact. And that's at CBC, at the Globe & Mail, at CTV, they have people who actually have standards, and I think that that matters. But is that where people are getting their information these days? I think that obviously systems, institutions, not just the media, primarily not the media, have really let people down. And there's reasons that people are upset and can't afford to properly feed their kids and clothe their kids. I mean, there's reasons for that. But I do wish that there was more trust in media and I think there is more trust in media in Canada than there is in the States. I mean, we saw the reaction to the Lisa LaFlamme situation where she- I've written about how I don't think it was about the hair. I mean, not that that helped, and not that it's not an issue that when women get older that they become less valuable faster than men. But I think the real reason that she got out was because she was fighting for journalism. And she was standing up to people in suits who were saying, no, no, no, we're going to cut this, we're going to cut that, because that's what's required. And I'm in charge. You're not in charge. So I think it was a power struggle. Matt Cundil (Host) 00:22:40 In just a second. Getting fired, getting cancer, getting a podcast, and Wendy's reaction to all of it. By the way, the Women of Ill Repute are one of Canada's most listened to podcasts. And if your brand is interested in partnering with them for some podcast ads, you can reach Wendy and Maureen directly through their website womenofillrepute.com. There's more. There's always more, including a transcript of this episode if you'd like to read the rest of the show, at soundoffpodcast.com. Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover) 00:23:14 Transcription for the Sound Off podcast is powered by Poddin. Your podcast is an SEO gold mine. We help you to dig out. Start your free trial now at Poddin.io. Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:23:14 The Sound Off podcast with Matt Cundill. Matt Cundil (Host) 00:23:27 What was your favorite election? Wendy Mesley (Guest) 00:23:30 Well, the big one. There were two, I suppose. One was just before- it was '84. So I was still in Quebec City and Brian Mulroney was coming along. And that was such a great story. All of the buses were at the brewery mission to load up the people to get them to vote. And I think that was my favorite. And so years later, when I was at CBC, we called the series The Old Man. I met a guy, Jean-Yves Laursilles, who was known as the Poodle when I was in Quebec City and a child, and he basically came forward and said it was all fake. I was paid to do this, I was paid to do that, and I was paid by the PQ to set up a party to run against them to make sure that they'd win in the next election. And he had saved all kinds of mementos to tell this story, and I'm sure that most of them were true, but it was also many, many, many years later. But I just thought it was somebody willing to tell the truth about what had happened in 1984. So that was a long time ago. The 1988 election, when I was in Ottawa, was fascinating. Like, now I look at the elections, there's no point in even going. Like, I was on the plane with Mulroney and with the other parties, but primarily with Mulroney, and it was kind of a big deal. And you would be able to actually talk to people who were in the crowd, or you'd be able to talk to protesters, or you'd be able to go into town and talk to people. And now you can't do that anymore. There's one pool for everybody, and everybody gets the same footage, and you get 25 seconds where you can shoot your stand up, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever, and that's it. So you don't have any access to anything that they don't want you to have access to. So I'm not sure that as an election reporter that it's much fun or very real anymore. Matt Cundil (Host) 00:25:15 Can you talk about- the day you found out you had breast cancer. What were your first few steps? Wendy Mesley (Guest) 00:25:22 Well, I kind of went into reporter mode, and maybe I became a reporter because it's my mode, but I felt a lump, and it was smallish and hard, and I thought, this is not normal. So I went for a mammogram that showed that there were all these weird caressifications and showed that there was something that could be a tumor. And so the lady at the hospital who did the mammogram basically said, it doesn't look good. And I said, well, why don't we not wait? Why don't we just do the biopsy? So I talked myself into talk to her into giving me a biopsy toute-suite, and got the results toute-suite. And so I knew pretty quickly that it was new in my heart without it being official that it was cancer. And I remember calling my husband, because it started off as just an appointment, and he was at work, and I was at work and squeezing in a doctor's appointment. And I remember calling him and him saying, oh, no, it's going to be fine, honey. And I said no. Liam. Like, really. I think I have cancer, and I need you to go, oh, shit, it's cancer, rather than saying, everything's going to be fine. And he was like, okay. And sure enough, it was. And yeah, it was all rather shocking, but I fairly quickly learned that I was- because there really are two camps. You can be in between for a while, but there are two camps. There are those expected to live, and there are those expected to die. And I knew that I was expected to live, and that makes a huge difference. So we had a six year old at the time, and it was weird because her two teachers- so she'd been in kindergarten where her teacher had had cancer, and then she was now in grade one where her teacher was on leave because she was being treated for cancer. Next door, where there was a cancer nurse. On the other side was somebody whose mother had died of cancer. And across the street there was somebody else who had some history of working in cancer. So it was kind of like cancer's around. I'm not going to die. Everything's going to be great. Cancer's everywhere. She was like, oh, okay, so cancer schmancer, like, it's everywhere. So we tried to keep it as that, even though I lost my hair and I went through treatment, and there was always sort of the lingering idea of, well, maybe things could go wrong. Maybe I could die. But we never really dealt with that. I pushed into denial pretty early, and it worked so hard. Matt Cundil (Host) 00:27:42 And now you've got a podcast with Maureen Holloway, who also has breast cancer, and I don't want to use that to dovetail into it. But the two of you have become friends, really, through a shared experience that wasn't exactly shared together at the same time. Wendy Mesley (Guest) 00:27:55 Yeah, I'm not sure that our friendship is based on that, because it's just one of so many similarities. I was an anchor on the National Fridays and Sundays and filling in for Peter a lot and doing other stuff, panels and interviews and stuff, which was great. And one of the things was the Sunday panel, and John Moore was a panelist and he's the CFRB morning guy and very opinionated and funny. So he was great. And at some point I said, you know, we should have dinner. And he was like, oh, dinner, yeah. And I'm going to invite Maureen Holloway because you guys would really hit it off. And we had the six of us had dinner. And it was like, by the end of dinner, it was just like, holy shit. We both started at CKFM. I mean, I started at Chum, but my first real job was as a traffic reporter at CKFM. Well, maybe it was at Chin, but one of my very first jobs was the same as hers. We both went to Ryerson. We both had breast cancer. We both have kids that are almost the same age. And we've had kind of these parallel careers. We're different. Like, she's a comedian and I used to be a serious journalist, so she's trying to teach me how to be funny. And we've started this podcast together. We've become very, very close. And the cancer thing, like, she saw me at Princess Margaret Hospital, the big Toronto Cancer Hospital, a few months after because she got cancer a couple of months after me, because I got mine, of course, in breast cancer month. Being very trendy. Matt Cundil (Host) 00:29:16 Which is October. Wendy Mesley (Guest) 00:29:18 October, yeah. So, yeah. Pretty- Yeah. So anyway, we didn't meet during that, which is too bad because it's really nice to be able to talk to other people who are living the same crisis as you are. Matt Cundil (Host) 00:29:30 How's the podcast experience so far? How do you look at it? You're 15 episodes in. I've already completely disclosed that I produced the show, but what's the experience been like through the first 15, 16 episodes? Wendy Mesley (Guest) 00:29:41 It's turned out to be both more wonderful and more horrifying than I thought in terms of the- and I'm sure Maureen would say the same. We've learned a lot, much of it, thanks to you, Matt. But it's a lot of work because up until recently, we did all of the chase. We did all of the research, we read all of the books. Maureen records everything, sends it off to you. We do a newsletter on SubStack, which is a lot of work. We write the show notes that go on the website, and we've hired people. So now we have someone who is helping us with the chase. We've hired somebody to help do our website, we found a photographer. So it's a lot of work, especially now as we're going weekly and we're not making any money. Matt Cundil (Host) 00:29:41 Yet. Wendy Mesley (Guest) 00:29:41 So we're massively successful and we have a hugely influential audience, but it's just been the work has been overwhelming. So now our next focus is on, well, how do we actually pay for this so that we can continue to grow, I hope. But it's been a wonderful experience because a lot of these people- I don't know, like, Mary Walsh was one of- the comedian, was one of the first people that we did, and I was always somehow a little bit intimidated by her and found her a little scary. And then, even while admiring her. And we interviewed her, and she's just so warm. I mean, she fights, she fights like the devil. But just so many people, we haven't invited any people I would call assholes on to the show. They're all women who have fought for stuff. So it's been like a real mix of people that we don't know, people that we do know, and to have these really meaningful conversations and, like, a lot of chuckles. A lot of chuckles, which is what Maureen brings to the table more than anything, is let's get people to be real and laugh. So it's lovely. Matt Cundil (Host) 00:31:25 So in the very first episode of the podcast, you talk about your departure from the CBC. Wendy Mesley (Guest) 00:31:30 Oh, here we go. Matt Cundil (Host) 00:31:33 I don't know that you can get through an interview without having to touch on it a little bit. Wendy Mesley (Guest) 00:31:37 No, it was extremely painful, and it was years ago, but it's important. Matt Cundil (Host) 00:31:42 It feels weird, and it felt weird at first because of, I guess, how it was reported. In some publications it said you had retired, and so it felt off. And then what happened at Radio Canada in Quebec really makes it super weird in that what they did on the air had no repercussions, practically, except for an apology, and what you did in a meeting is the end of your time at the CBC. Wendy Mesley (Guest) 00:32:08 Yeah. So I obviously have spent a lot of time thinking about this, just so people know. Basically what happened was it was during COVID and I was at home, and I was on a phone call, and George Floyd had just been murdered by the police in the States. It was a huge issue. And so we wanted, obviously, to talk about that. So we were doing a panel, and somebody who was going to be on our panel, she ultimately wasn't because of what happened, somebody who was going to be on our panel had written about how she was called the n word all the time. I was outraged. I just thought that this is crazy that a reporter in Canada can be called that. And so we were kicking around the idea of how we were going to handle the panel and what was going to be the focus and so on and it was a long conversation. And at one point, I actually, instead of saying N word, I used the whole word because I was outraged and I should have, but didn't, realize that people want that word banished because it hurts them. I never meant to hurt anybody. And as soon as I realized that I had hurt people by using the whole word, I apologized on the phone call. I apologized publicly afterwards. And at first CBC was like, maybe we can get through this. And I thought, well, I've been here for 40 friggin' years. Surely an apology and a punishment and whatever, surely we can work this out. But I was also very expensive, older, and the CBC was going through a number of accusations by its own staff of systemic racism itself and wanted to cleanse the palate. And basically, I think they used me, they used me as a, well, here, we're going to throw her to the wolves, so therefore we're clean, which I didn't think that was fair. And then it came out that the whole Radio Canada thing, that it came out that two years earlier we were doing a piece on Bill 21, which is the law in Quebec that prohibits people in Hijabs to be teachers or any position of authority if you work for the government. And I thought that this was wrong. And I had worked in Quebec and the N word was commonly thrown around there. And so I wanted in a group of our producers, there were five or six of us, I wanted to talk about that word and how it's used in Quebec and how there are different views in Quebec. And I talked about how a book by Pierre Valiere, who is a FLQ- he's long dead, but he was a leftist socialist writer who tried to compare how, you know, Quebecers, Francophone Quebecers were the real underdogs. And so he used, in the English translation and in French, he used the whole word in the title. And so I used the whole word in the discussion of this. But I was basically trying to argue that there is a different approach to racism, shall we call it, in Quebec, and a different approach to using that word in Quebec. So anyway, so that came out again. And then CBC was like, whoa, so you shouldn't have used it then, you used it again a year and a half later, when this woman said that she was called this word and you used the whole word. And so what are we going to do now? And so they basically threw me under the bus. And then the whole N word thing became a huge issue in Quebec at the Universite D'Ottawa, and with hosts at CBC, journalists at CBC using the word they thought in supportive ways, but in ways that were not seen as supportive by many others. And it became an issue. And so I don't think that the word should be thrown around. I do think it should be used carefully and I do think that I have learned even more through my experience that there is no proper- I don't think there is a proper context for using it. If it hurts people, just don't use it. So I'm fine with that. CBC and Radio Canada came down with somewhat different positions on that. I could argue against both of them pretty easily, but I don't want to be positioned as somebody who thinks that Radio Canada has it all right and CBC has it all wrong. Matt Cundil (Host) 00:35:56 I like that answer. I want to talk a little bit about making that transition post-CBC into podcast, because it almost feels like you can wash off a number of the rules that you have when you get behind the microphone. And listen, Maureen has been doing the sort of comedy side of behind the microphone for so many years and then the two of you team up. I mean, it must have felt weird getting behind the microphone with her and recording content. Wendy Mesley (Guest) 00:36:23 Well, we've had a number of arguments between friends. We always end up getting closer, I think because we are kind of joined at the hip in so many ways. But yeah, it is weird. Like we've joked that our podcast opening line is a comedian and a journalist walk into a bar. Hahaha. But then what? Like we try and find interviews where people can talk, which on social media, a lot of producers that I worked with, they would say, oh yeah, no, I booked so and so and they're great. And then they'd come in and they'd be like, uhhhnyeahnuhhh, and you couldn't understand anything they said, they speak so slowly. They were terrible because they talked to them online. They hadn't actually spoke to them as people. So on the podcast, we need to make sure first that people are okay having conversations, not just doing interviews where you have a three sentence answer, and that they're able to laugh at themselves or laugh at what is going on around them and to have a sense of humor. So I am learning a lot from Maureen about how to approach reality with a sense of humor and I think she's learning a lot from me on how to talk to people about stuff that matters in a way that is not the way that she would approach it. So I think if it were two journalists having a podcast, it would probably be boring. If it were two comedians having a podcast, it would be something else with a limited audience. But I think with the two of us sort of bouncing off of each other, learning from each other, approaching things in different ways, I think it's actually really good. She says about her own podcast. Matt Cundil (Host) 00:37:48 It's not just a podcast, though, that you've jumped into. Because I know people are thinking, oh, good, here's a promotion for another podcast that I have to listen to. And I only have time to listen to about five or six of them a week, and then I'm really sort of out of audio space. But what I really love is your writing and your weekly contributions that you put out through SubStack. I mean, listen, you've been writing for a long time. I've seen some of the stuff you've penned in newspapers. I've seen some of the other stuff you've written. But now you've got your own thing on SubStack where we can stay in contact with you and we don't have to listen. We can just read. Wendy Mesley (Guest) 00:38:18 Yeah. Which has also been an interesting experiment because I really like to write. I think I'm a very good storyteller. I'm not a classic writer for television. Like, Linda McIntyre wrote books and wrote scripts all the time and won awards for writing stuff for the Fifth Estate. I never won any awards for writing, because I think I connect with people in a different way. But I love writing and I love storytelling and on SubStack we've been able to do that. So telling all kinds of stories because- I don't know whether it's because I'm no longer at CBC or whether because I'm now in my 60s, that I just- I'm not ashamed of anything anymore. I'm not wearing a lot of trauma anymore. I think that we are who we are and we need to like, there are good people and bad people and I'm hoping that only good people will come on our panel. That's all whom we're inviting. But obviously that's discretionary to me and Maureen. That's what we think are good people. But yeah, I've loved writing for SubStack and I tell all kinds of all kinds of secrets there, and I think both of us do there and on the podcast, because I'm not really a big keeper of secrets anymore. Matt Cundil (Host) 00:39:28 I do have one question about windsurfing I want to ask. Wendy Mesley (Guest) 00:39:31 Which is not very "in," apparently, anymore. Like, I think John Kerry may have lost his leadership battle for president in the States because he was a wind surfer, but it's like way beyond that. Nobody windsurfs except old folks, they're all into like, foiling and winging and kiting and everything. But I'm still windsurfing because I'm ancient. Matt Cundil (Host) 00:39:48 I learned in 1984 in France how to windsurf and I really loved it. But I mean, the sport's a bit of a pain in the ass because you got to put the board on top of the car and then you got to drive the board with the sail, and the sail is big, and then you've got this wishbone thing which may not exist anymore. And maybe the whole technology has changed. Wendy Mesley (Guest) 00:40:04 Yeah, the technology has changed. It's now down to a board, a foil, and then you blow up your wing and you throw it on your back. You throw it in the back of the van and off you go. The only problem is the foil is like, to me, what looks like a razor blade that comes out the bottom of- it's 3ft long that comes out the bottom of your board. And then there's a T on the bottom and you rise up out of the water and you go like smoke. And you hardly need any wind to get you going. And it's great until you get whiplash, which is what I got, learning how to do that. And other people get stabbed by the foil. But I mean, wind surfing is dangerous too, so I've decided to stick with what I know until I can't. Matt Cundil (Host) 00:40:42 I got blown out to sea many years ago, and the rescue involved a helicopter and a bunch of other things. Yeah, that was very exciting. But it wasn't easy. So is the sport now easier where it's not going to be as hard on your triceps and it's not as hard on the body anymore? Wendy Mesley (Guest) 00:40:57 No, it's really hard. And the better that you get and the faster that you go, the more dangerous that it gets. And so now going out in eight or ten knots is like playing mini golf. I have no interest. It's only when it's in 20 or 30 knots that I'm really interested. So this is why I'm going to Lavantana in Mexico, Baja Mexico, in a couple of days. I'm an addict to speed and all of that. And I'm good for a layperson, but I'm terrible among my peers who are really good. Matt Cundil (Host) 00:41:24 That's awesome. Wendy, I think I got it all. Thank you very much for being on this podcast. Wendy Mesley (Guest) 00:41:29 So this is it? There's no other nasty questions? Well, there wasn't really any nasty ones. Matt Cundil (Host) 00:41:33 I'll tell you what, we can talk- let's talk ill of some people. Let's talk ill. We can start with John Moore, but we can also move over to Mark Kelly. Wendy Mesley (Guest) 00:41:41 Mark Kelly? Oh, no. He's a sweetheart. And so is John Moore. Matt Cundil (Host) 00:41:44 Wendy, thanks so much. I really appreciate it. Wendy Mesley (Guest) 00:41:46 Yeah, lovely to talk to you. And thank you for all your help with our podcast, because we were babes in the woods. Tara Sands (Voiceover) 00:41:46 The podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski. Social media by Courtney Krebsbach. Another great creation from the Soundoff Media Company. There's always more at soundoffpodcast.com.